May 22, 2025 • 44 mins
Guilt - religious or otherwise - can encourage people to make drastic choices. In When No One Sees Us, people are making some CHOICES! Holy Week, the US Armed Forces, Spanish police, pink cocaine and a whole bunch of guilt converge in unexpected ways.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to Killerphone, where we explore the intersection of
crime and entertainment every other week. I'm Chrissy and today today,
as promised another episode of stuff from When No One
Sees Us. Because there was so much that we had
to talk about the show, I had another basically full
(00:32):
episode of stuff that I had to remove, so I
basically have an entire full episode for you all this
little stuff here the beginning, like what we normally talk about. Obviously,
we're not going to talk about the cast or recap
or where it was filmed, but we do have some
thoughts about the show that we talked about before we
(00:53):
actually started recording. We talk about having gone to see
a Brown Talk, which was so awesome. The show was
filmed in Spain. Jackie went to Spain. Cool. So I'm
gonna send y'all right into that. It's so good and
(01:14):
worth hearing enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Some other things I've forgotten to tell you. I am certain,
but I will think.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Sorry if you think of it, then like tell, I'll
pause and I'll write, I'll make a note.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I won't I won't pause this, I mean I'll delete
it out of there.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But okay, because I know how it is you know
how it is. I do know how it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Is to make sure I know what episodes because I stopped.
I stopped mid third episode.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Okay, just I watched everything that was out up until
when I stopped watching, which was like through episode seven. Yeah,
I mean it's it's like just compelling enough, like it's
really good. But there's like I even read light I'm
not even talk about it during the episode, but like
(02:03):
I read like a commentary by the director and he
was like, I didn't want to do something that left
you with a big cliffhanger every single episode. He's like,
that's not this the way I wanted to tell this story.
And I'm like, oh, okay, I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's nice.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Actually that's fine. But also like when it was like
the next time, I'm like, well, I could just let
it run.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Okay. So episode three it was good. I was a
little tired but kind of wired by the time I
decided I was going to go back and watch a
couple more. Yeah, and so I did also then get
out my phone because it was just slow enough. Yeah,
and then I got into real I hit pause to
watch one reel and then got sucked in.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah. That was it.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So I never went back to it, but I think
it's great. I think I will. I will go back
and it's good.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
It's like just enough anyway, Yes, okay, so she did.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Go yeah, yeah, well because we want to bring it. Yes,
that was so good.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I mean, it was so good. Wasn't it great? She
was so like, I mean encouraging and like it's nice
to know. It's nice to know that all the big
business leaders are also freaking the fuck out.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Right, But then, like her whole thing about the speaking
in metaphor, go pay take a poetry class, huh, I
feel like, well, it gave me some ammo. But I'm
still yeah, but you have to communicate your findings, yes,
and you and it's not just that you have to
do it in metaphor. I was like, I told, and
I told, I told my dual credit students about that.
(03:43):
I was like, by the way, so take the damn
poetry class. Like y'all y'all need to know. Y'all need
to know how to do this right because and I'm like, listen,
I get it, but.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Also but also you have to be able to communicate.
That's yeah, it's really important, and it's.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Not just about technol writing anymore. Like I still teach
technical writing, but it is really important. I told my
writing students about it too, because I was like, I
get it. I'm teaching you technical writing, and like, I'm
teaching you we're talking about writing a psychology and essays,
but you're going to have to do all the rest
of this.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, you have to be able to write your abstract
in a manner that speaks to anybody who could benefit
from your research, not just people who have the academic
understanding exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So you know what I had them doing class, because
we do this. I've done exercises similar to this, and
I had done it before, Like I have them write
a log line as if their paper was being optioned
by Hollywood. Oh, write the log line for your movie,
Like what are you? What is your argument? What is
a story you're trying to tell? Because you don't get
to write a story in your essay the same way,
but it is nonetheless, which is what makes it a
(04:48):
hard skill. But and then write the tagline right, like
give it a tech. So then I had them write
an abstract. Well after Brene Browns, I was like, I
have a new app writing exercise I'm going to try out.
I had them write it as a blog post. Oh
that's great, right, like translate the abstract to a blog
post where you're using just common language. I told him
about that, you know, I was like, look, I get it.
(05:11):
You know you're gonna have to You're gonna have to
write in APA and honestly concise and clarity and all
of that, and logic still applies, but if you don't
understand it, it'll become very clear when you try to
make this metaphor right. And so all that's doing, all
the poetry, all the metaphor, all it's doing is weeding
out those who can't make the logic.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Oh h and a can of it.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm kind of excited about.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah. Well, And you know what's a good example of
that is the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lax Because she
was a writer and she had to work really hard
to understand the science and why the science was being exploited,
why it was being used, why it was important. Right,
(05:57):
But then she figured out how to tell a story
around that that made that science that she worked really
hard to understand also accessible to the readers of her book.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, I mean pure research. Even like twenty twenty two,
about seventy five percent of individuals are interested in science,
but more than anything else. Like if you divide it
up in the type of sciences as sciences that are
a story, an emotional story, personal story number one, Yeah,
people are interested in that. So being able to say
it and then you know, bring an ai to the conversation, right,
(06:33):
like being able to prompt properly and be able to
put the put a metaphor test, like she didn't say
it this way. What I heard is okay Ai spits
out something, change it to a metaphor, and see if
the logic stands, because either it's going to translate to
a beautiful story it makes sense, or it doesn't. Right,
(06:55):
And that's your litmus test. You don't have to be
a philosopher to understand the logic. Try to put a metaphor.
If you can't in an't logical right, And so it
makes you a better prompter. And also it makes you
more critically thinking, which we're gonna need uh huh, right,
We're gonna need it in so many ways. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, And I put down my coffee and I pick
up my.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah, I went to Spain when I was in college.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, why does my friend We went to Keithon id Orton,
h that is Buffie.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, it's the middle of nowhere. Yeah, nowhere.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, I mean we weren't but like forty five minutes
ish from Toledo. But it felt like the middle of nowhere.
But what was interesting And it doesn't have trees, kind
of like San Antonio, but you could stand on kind
of a hillside and you could see each little town.
Oh cool, and so it was very adorable and the
towns were fun. I mean, it wasn't terrible, it was fun,
(07:56):
but it was like it felt like the middle of
nowhere initially. Well, and it's just.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
A much more quiet pace of life.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Right, there's nothing between the towns, right, so there's just
but that means there's all is quiet and like prairie
kind of nature. How me East Coast girl from from
you know, the Origins. I missed some trees, but it
was beautiful like in between the towns.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know. That's really cool. Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So here's how it works. Christie erects her search history.
Hey an essay. We promise it's nothing more nefarious than
a podcast to find out what's true some of the
psychological motivations behind the characters actions and real life applications
that relate to our topic. I have no idea what
Christy decided to look up could be the same thing
that captured my curiosity or something I never thought of.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Is it true? We had lots of stuff from is
it true? For when No One sees Us that had
to be taken out because he had so many great
conversations last time, I opted to include those in the
original episode, and this episode still has plenty of stuff.
(09:10):
We talk about Harry Carey, a chess book, ADHD, meds
and treatments, bleeding eyes, and much more. Enjoy. How about
the Harry Carey? Was it accurately portrayed?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Okay, it was, and I guess Harry Carey is how
you would talk about it outside of Japan.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, but mostly.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
In Japan it would be called suppuku, right, Yeah, that's
and it's a ritualistic self harm where they disembowel themselves
with a either a samurai sword or there or a
knife like what he had, and they did a pretty
good job where he had a rag around the handle.
(10:04):
And that's so that you don't slip and cut your
hand and make it impossible to do finish it well,
to finish it or to make it even more painful.
You want to do it clean, so that it's done
properly and that you don't injure yourself in another way
and make it worse, right.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, yeah, I guess. Yeah, it is hard because it's
a different it's a it's a literal different emotion. Yeah,
that's found in those collectivist cultures that have a sense
of duty, and there's literally a different emotion associated with it. Right,
that's cultural, and so it's very hard to.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
For us to understand.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, I find myself.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
With a block.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, really, I I can understand the kamakazi better than
I can have I can understand.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
This, okay. Well, it was originally reserved for the Amuri
in their code of Honor. Officers at the end of
World War two engaged in some of this to try
and restore honor to themselves and their family.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
And there's right that I've let people down that I have.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Again, it's a penance sort of situation, but it's really
like an ultimate penance situation. It was sometimes a way
to die with honor if you're going to be captured.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Right, right, which again makes more sense.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Right, if you're going to be captured you want to do,
You're going to die honorably you. They can't torture you
for information. It was also capital punishment for some samurai,
and it was often performed in front of spectators, you know,
hangings in the United States and olden days, or I
(11:54):
mean beheadings in England. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Well, because there's a weird humility associated and that's what
that's what makes it a different kind of emotion, because
there's a humility associated with the fact that I know
I cannot withstand the torture, right, I know I will
be broken.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Therefore I will take the ultimate sacrifice because and so
there's a you have to have the humility to be like,
the torture will break me, and I will then dishonor
them further, so I will honor them by preventing this hard.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Right, which that makes sense to me, but it doesn't make.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Sense but when I parse it out, right.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, but I mean there were like samurai who'd done
horrible things that were sentenced to suppuku, and they have
like dinners, they'd serve their favorite meal to all their
friends and family and then at the end of the
meal they would do this and that's.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Like, it is a hard, different emotion.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And it is very very cultural sort of situation. But
it's interesting that it's got this it's like mirrored in
this whole penance of Easter your week and the hardness
of having these long processions and wearing the scarb, and very.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Oddly generational feeling to this too, like that this is
an older emotion that existed in an older world, right
that that newer, younger people are kind of like whoa.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, like I'm not going to carry that generational trauma
ahead because maybe it doesn't need to be. Yeah, like
that car.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Up behind, you know, like you know what I'm saying.
I don't know. It is a very difficult thing to understand.
But you know, we we're only talking about the first episode, right,
but I will say, like there is discussion.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
About his his involvements sure with.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
This almost religiously yes, So it does speak to when
people get involved that they harken back to the traditions
of old because you know, even these processions are a
little bit of a spectator situation. Most people would not
these generations would kind of be like.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well, yeah, and it's this like it's this honor and
family tradition rather than.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Right, it's a family tradition, not like I'm excited to.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
To atone for my sins, right.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Like they've invented wheels, yeah, but they decide to do
it the other way and that. But I think the generationally,
unless you can tie it to a purpose, generations by
generations will lose that and it will become simply this
is how we've always done it. This is the tradition.
And that's kind of where they show they're at. When
(14:48):
they show the people underneath, they're like, oh my gosh,
eye rolls and everything, like they are they are there.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, people underneath the statues that they're carrying around.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
And so like you see this starting to happen, like oh,
these individuals are kind of like they have wheels. Yeah,
it's making me do this. We're gonna have lunch on Sunday. Great, right,
Like there's just this kind of like right, yeah, it
loses something.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
How about that open book that was on Mike Johnson's nightstand,
Strategic Symphony Mastering Advanced Chess Dynamics. Is that a real book?
I think so Okay, it's actually.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Not okay, is it close to something?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Though? Okay, there are a lot of books about chess strategy,
so lots and lots of that. Particular one by je
Nelson is fictional. I'm sure they just didn't want to
pay somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Because it seems very close to something I know is
out there well.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Mastering Chess Strategy is recommended for intermediate players looking to
improve their game by forward chess dot com. I couldn't
find anything that was like super close to that, but
it just I'm like, but that makes okay, that is fictional.
Honestly makes sense to me because people who are looking
(16:11):
for books about chess tend to be pretty like analytical
and they don't appreciate the metaphor so much. Maybe and
Strategic Symphony seems like almost too metaphorical for many chess players.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I did something
about it. It feels like an immagularation, you know, of
like a hundred different right, so it felt very real.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah, they did a good job.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Maybe they should publish this, I mean, for real, if
you have ADHD, please get yourself prescribed adderall a ritalin please,
like just you know, like, but it's right.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
For you, and there's all kinds of and that's the thing,
you know. For I was just listening on MPR the
other day and they were talking about you know, how
you to be. They told every kid who had ADHD
to get on riddle in and now they're like, that
might be right for some people, but there's actually lots
of other things that you can other interventions that you
(17:11):
can take before you resort to that that can really
be helpful. And it's more of an occupational therapy thing,
but you have to actually recognize that it's a difference
in your brain and not an epidemic of some kind.
That it's like, it's not a catchy sort of thing.
(17:32):
We're better at diagnosing it now than we used to be,
and that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, I mean, also, just as effective as riddle in
an adderall is an environmental change, sure.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, and that's it. That's like, you need to change
these environments and give people, not just children but people
the opportunity to find different ways to handle that, and
then if those things don't work, then you move on
to the medication. But it's not.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
It's it's oh gosh, this is so sticky. Oh I'm
just gonna ADHD is a cultural diagnosis, sure and in
some ways, and it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but
we overpathologize individual differences and the way that we contribute
and the way that we have cognitive thought and perception,
(18:25):
and so we overdiagnose. And really what we're doing a
lot of times is diagnosing and prescribing medication to make
them fit into a box, when all we have to
do is say, oh, you're like this to do this and.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Go be over here and do this thing instead, because
that's going to be better suited to you. But we
can't cure it by sending people to I don't know,
work camps and things.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
No, we can't. And you know, the problem is that
retalin and like adderall are all short lived drugs, right,
They go out of your body. Right, So in the
same way that like well, caffeine, you if you tend
to take like a little you know, a good three
shot Starbucks and it helps you focus in the middle
of the day, you could take a Riddlin or an
(19:11):
adderall and it's kind of like you have to make decisions,
you know, are you going to take it for the
thing you need? To focus on because that's meaningful for you,
or is that not your thing? And maybe something else.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Is actually doesn't improve like test scores.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Oh not so much, because it's nothing without the coping skills.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
If you don't know how to study for something, helping
you focus means you're focusing on nothing. So the Riddlin
and the adderall are only helpful if you actually use
them to then learn the code the skills that you
need to learn that maybe you didn't learn because you
weren't focused enough, right, But the truth is that it's
still short lived, and you can take it for that
very specific thing. But a you will never cure your
(19:53):
your individual differences in the way that you cognitively think
and participate. Also, you'll be an inch shorter, just think
about that, right for sure?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well, and I mean that's what they were saying was
that once they put these children who on medications like Riddlin,
they were having these adverse health effects like being shorter.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Being shorter is number one.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Right, and or you know, less bone density some of
these things that are like, yeah, an effect of the medication.
And the kids were better behaved in school, but their
test scores weren't e better.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Their test scores weren't different well, because we thought that
that if they just focused, they'd be like everybody else.
And it's like, that's ridiculous if they missed out on
valuable lessons of how to focus and study and memory
and all that stuff because they weren't focused before. Right,
we know, you can't remember something you didn't pay attention
(20:50):
to if they weren't paying attention.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
To all that.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Giving them the drug is I gotta fix that. You
still have to learn how to do the thing. And
many people do right, Many people do right. The drugging,
I'll fix it. And for a lot of people, honestly,
I mean, just just go to Starbucks. It gives yourself
some caffeine.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Or you know, let's give that. Our children some interventions,
like maybe they need. They have these like rubber bands
that you can put on desks so that they can
move their feet, and that kind of stimulation can help
them concentrate.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yes, because it's controlling your stimulus. Because you're under You're
usually people the ADHD the brain differences is that your
neurotransmitters are lower such that your threshold for stimulus is
a little higher. So having those things can help stimulate
your brain and create the same sort of baseline, right,
(21:43):
other people have with that stimulus, so then you can focus.
There's so many good things right out there. And you
know what, let's not overpathologizing individual differences.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Right, I mean, these kids aren't broken. They're not broken,
just different and that's okay. Well, and they're hardly different.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I mean, but like you know what I mean, Like,
if I was to normalize the data which we have,
they're not really that different. They're different on different traits. Yeah, right,
but we're all different on different traits, but society values
some traits over other traits, which is why I say
it's a cultural diagnosis. Look at ourselves, box.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I know. So a doctor said that heat exhaustion wouldn't
cause ones eyes to believe, No, okay, not typically, but
hemolacria can be induced, which is crying. Tears can be
(22:52):
induced by intense exercise, particularly in heat. So exhaust of
exercise could could could in some people cause that sort
of situation. Yeah, which it's usually harmless, it usually resolves itself.
(23:13):
It is always something that is an indication of something
else that's happening. Right, It's not like you would just
cry tears of blood. There's going to be something else happening,
probably in your eyes, but it could be induced. It
would be rare more often have like the whites of
(23:34):
somebody's eyes where we get bloody right, where they would
have it would be become red and that again, that
will also resolve. But crying tears, bloody tears wouldn't be
absolutely something that would never happen for me.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Exhaustion underlying a condition that the heat exhaustion would be
some sort of catalysts, right, some sort of mediator.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Right, But that for the doctor to just completely dismiss it.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Without checking, right, Okay, he was.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Right to ask what kind of drugs were you taking?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Well, that's true, right, Yeah, but it's not a super
uncommon thing to have tears that have a little bit
of blood in them for a reason.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, but it's usually harmless.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, it looks scary.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So Antonio was a Japanese culture expert and he had
a secret online life where he went by the Japanese
name Shadow, which is shadow Japanese. Is that the word
for shadows in Japanese? Okay, it is, but it's not
the most common word for shadow in Japanese. The most
(24:56):
common word for shadow is kaja, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And shadow is like it's a little like.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Me or like every ikea furniture name, right, Like it
all kind of sounds like a thing, right, But they're
all real words but or towns or whatever, right, but
they're they just apply them in a way. But and
that's kind of what it was going for. But k
(25:26):
jay is a little more poetic and it's generally what
they talk about when they're talking about shadows. But also, uh,
their tradition of architecture is such that they really pay
attention to how the light comes into a building and
(25:46):
creates shadows, and they use it very artistically.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
So do they say shadow.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It's not as common, Yes they do, yes, But.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Is that an adaptation from an English word.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
That I could find?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Accent? Not that I could find, because like we lived
in Korea and they didn't have a word for dry cleaning.
Literally the word was dry cleaning, but in their accent
it almost sounds like a different word, but it's not
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, not that I could find, so, but it's interesting. Yes,
the one that Antonio war was a little more plain.
But they do they can be pretty.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Scary, I mean, okay, I can't. I can't, I can't,
I have to. I'm so sorry. I loved the mask.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Oh with Jim Carrey, Yes, yeah, it's such a good moment.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, with the wooden is the whole thing? Oh my gosh,
it was so good.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I wonder if that holds up.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
It's been a minute, Yeah I have. I don't know that.
I didn't really like that era of Jim Carrey.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
You didn't like that whole thing?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Oh, not so much. I never watched it. I might
appreciate it in a different way, now.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
So did you not like a Sventura?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I didn't love it. Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Interesting? What about Liar Liar?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I loved Liar Liars? That was normal, right, but it
was a different kind of it was less fantastical.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Right, And it was him just being a comical guy, right.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It was like a comical acting with a like a message, right.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, well, like he was just an everyday dude who
happened to be kind of funny, right, right. And they
even played that up like the one thing the ex
wife likes about that he was funny, right.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And also where he was got Bruce almighty. Oh yeah,
that was right, that same kind of that kind of
I like that era of Jim Carrey, not so much
the mask and less.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
See, I loved the mask because when the mask was off,
he was just a normally guy. Yeah that was kind
of witty. But when the mask was on, he was
completely somebody else. Right of loved it. It was really fun.
Oh Jim Carrey, so he's so good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
All of the sources that we use to inform our
discussion here on Killer Fund Podcast can be found on
our social media. Join us on Facebook at Killer Fun Podcast,
exploring the intersection of crime and entertainment. You can find
us on Twitter at killer Funpod, or you can send
us an email at Killerfunpodcast at gmail dot com and
(28:23):
I'll be happy to share a link to whatever information
you're looking for. We love to hear from you. You
might learn a little something too. For our psychology breaks section,
we have a bunch of personal stuff that we talked about.
I left in a lot of things that we talked
about about masks that had to do with information from
(28:46):
the sources that we found. Here's all the personal stuff
that we talked about.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Enjoy and I will that is a that is a
performative part of my personality, that kind of love. Yeah,
because it allows me to go into any situation and
put on the mask of confidence, and that challenge built that.
Sure there was negative effect, it's so what I've overwhelmed
or overcome that.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
This is the most frustrating thing I think about being
a human and about being a woman, is that some
of the things you value about your personality the most
came from trauma in ways that are that were inappropriate
for you to be treated as a child, and yet
(29:30):
it has made you as an adult, giving you the
skills to be able to cope or formed your personality
in ways that you really like. And it's so maddening.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well it is, but I guess I would. I would,
I would maybe put a different spin on it. I
don't know that I would call it trauma, Okay, I
would call it a challenge. Okay, I mean peers not
accepting you is not trauma, right, Like that's here, Like, okay,
the men looking at me, I now know they were
going to do that anyway, especially at church. I'm sorry,
(30:06):
But so a little bit of that is like puts
a rest. Yeah, it's not trauma for me. When I
got older and continue to re examine my life, there
may be been a short period where I was like,
that's traumatic, Like they looked at me like that, And
then I got older and was.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Like, yeah, they were going to look at you like
that no matter what you were wearing.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, So I just just s completely.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
But maybe I'm putting some of my own stuff on that,
because there's trauma that happened when I was young that
has given me skills in my adult life that I
really appreciate and parts of my personality that I really like.
And I'm like, yeah, but those situations were bad, and they.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Were bad, and I think that can be fair for trauma,
and I think and it can be fair for any
kind of challenge. But we do know that challenge develops personality.
What we hope is that somebody isn't a traumatic event
that also comes with not just the development of skills
and traits that are helpful, but also adverse impacts and
baggage that has to be dealt with alongside in order
(31:07):
to leverage those skills to their best degree. I didn't
have to go through time. That's why I do always
say I call it trauma right because it wasn't long
before I realized, like, this is a thing I have
because I didn't have to deal with some sort of
extra baggage associated with that. I've had plenty of other
trauma in my life, and there's skills and things I've
learned from it that are great, but there was other
(31:28):
things to search through that were actually dragging me down
before I could learn to leverage that. So trauma can
still be helpful, Right, Freud knew that. Freud knew that
that you that you could put the trauma of something
towards something good. But the truth is, no matter what
every time we study it, it's challenge that builds resilience.
(31:51):
It is wait resistance that builds muscle, it is puzzles
that build your mental acuity. It is all ways some
sort of challenge and obstacle. What we hope is that
it's not trauma, so that you have to go through
all of this extra You're right to find out what
was the gen So so the thing is to have
(32:13):
challenge without trauma. Yes, absolutely, because God bless my mom.
She was trying and she just made the wrong choice. Right, Yeah,
she did not love me in that.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Moment, right, she loved you so much, so much. She
went too.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Far, She went too far. God bless her. She realized
her error later when she saw me one day and
my little outfit, and she was.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Like, ah, yeah you look.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, I do very much because now I'm not ever
not wearing God bless her Lord. I know, because we
have so much to say about that. You know though,
that was like, I feel like that conversation must resonate
with people.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I think everybody. Yeah, everybody resonates with that.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, that thing absolutely yeah. And last up real life.
We had lots of outtakes from real life. We talk
about panic attacks and hallucinations. Snowden and Manning enjoying actual
hallucinations are kind of rare. With panic attacks, oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah.
(33:26):
The er doctor seemed to indicate that they are common,
that they were super common, and uh no, but panic
attacks can make you feel like you're hallucinating. Which is
so interesting because this is really interesting article on self
dot com and they talk a lot about Megan Trainer
(33:48):
in this article, which I'm not going to talk about,
but you should go read this article because it's really interesting.
A New York City based psychologist, Michael Brunstein had this
to say, as a matter of fact, one of the
sentences of a panic attack is feeling like you're losing
your mind or going crazy. Because of all the physical
reactions they're having, such as increased breathing, sweating, heart beating, faster,
(34:11):
feeling faint. People might interpret what's going on around them
as though they're having a hallucination. Someone in the midst
of their panic attack might attribute a shadow and their
peripheral vision or flickering light to I'm seeing things. However,
that experience is not technically a hallucination. So you can
(34:35):
feel depersonalized or detached, and that may feel like a hallucination,
but it's not technically a hallucination.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, people understand panic attacks very well.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
No, because panic attack not even doctors, not at least
not doctors in this TV show.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Well, because they're not psychologists, right, because you know, it's
psychologists and well psychiatrists that deal with panic attacks. Panic
attacks don't necessarily respond to external stimuli. They can with
an underlying condition. But what most people call a panic
attack is actually like an overwhelmed breakdown. Well, we might
(35:17):
traditionally call it nervous breakdown. Huh, that's not the same thing.
The panic attack is actually your fighter flight system responding
to natural differences in your body.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Okay, so your heart rate goes up.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
You might be walking upstairs. Yeah, your heart rate fluctuates
all the time. Your heart rate might fluctuate because the
air quality has changed, but your body feels it and
it feels like a sign. And then your brain interprets
that internal stimuli as something of a threat, and so
then it becomes a snowball because then, oh, a threat.
(35:54):
Guess what happens after that? Your heart rate goes up?
Oh no, do you see the closed loop? So all
of this stuff starts to happen. So it's your fight
or flight response responding arrently to natural changes in your
body that create similar things to happen when you are
in flight or flight. Sweating, heart rate go up, all
these kind of things, your vision focusing, maybe you're hungry, right,
(36:16):
And you misinterpret all of these kind of things as
being some sort of red flag that something is happening,
And it's almost like not not really ever to external simulate.
If you are responding to external stimuli, you're a you're
in a different situation.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, it's a attack, right, and that is all I mean,
not that a panic attack is valid, it's just you
and treatment treatment for it is really sure.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
It's not a heart attack. Please, But also by rolling
off the heart attack, we can tell, Okay, this is
a panic attack. Have you had these before? Are you
afraid of having this situation happening? Because then we can
actually intervene in ways that are very helpful. Also, if
you're having like a of a quote unquote nervous breakdown
where you're really just overwhelmed with everything that's happening, also
a sign please get help. You don't need the same
(37:07):
help as a panic attack.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Right, Okay, Well, we're just gonna briefly uh talk about
how uh Magalle was investigating the disappearance of Miles Yes,
and uh Hooperen was not excited about her being there,
and nobody like no, but but he was like really
(37:32):
and she was like, we don't want another Snowden, Rye
or Manning And I'm like, oh, yeah, Edward Snowden. Oh
he worked for the NSA. Yeah, the uh National Security
Agency if you're unfamiliar. He was indicted for espionage because
(37:53):
he was this I'm almost loath to call him a
whistleblower because he is and he did say he tried
to go through proper channels to get some of the
things addressed, and nobody had listened to him. But however,
I don't know that he also had the full picture
of everything. Anyway, He's a Russian citizen since September of
(38:17):
twenty twenty two, yep, And I think that says some
things about him. And then Chelsea Manning was a similar situation.
Was an Army soldier who was court martialed in twenty
thirteen for violations of the Espionage Act after seven hundred
(38:39):
and fifty thousand classified or unclassified but sensitive military and
diplomatic documents to WikiLeaks. Yes, I don't know how to
feel about that President Obama commuted the sentence. I don't know.
I mean, I feel like there's more there that I
don't know about.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I mean, I feel like we've done a better job
of putting actually policies with procedures that back it up
sure to protect whistle blowers people who have feel feltus.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
We want whistle blowers to expose things that are not
being dealt with, but also we want policies in place
to deal with the things so that they nobody has
to whistle blow.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Right Well, Also, like if you whistle blow and you
receive information that explains or maybe you're not privy to
to just but for somebody who is in the need
to know to say that this isn't what you think
it is, we have to be able to trust that
to a degree. And I understand it, like I get
it people want to do. I mean, it's kind of like,
(39:41):
oh my god, I'm about to say something. It's kind
of like January sixth, Oh, okay. If you are one
of the individuals who actually believed that the election was stolen,
I empathize with your need to do the extreme because
that it feels like a very extreme violation. And so
(40:04):
I don't fault you for that feeling if you actually
believe that. I do fault you for your cognitive and
you're you know, a critical thinking I do. And I
even have empathy for how you got down that rabbit hole,
because in today's world, I get it. But like I understand,
like you're a passionate person. Given the right information, you
(40:25):
would be on my team.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
So I understand that I have empathy for that, which
is weird to say, but I do. And so a
lot of these individuals who became like Wiki leakers, you
know they felt the same way. But that's the thing.
You have to have some humility that you don't know,
which you don't know if you are in that situation,
you don't have the need to know a lot.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yes, Also signal doesn't have the need to know a lot,
So like we should care to kind of keep things
like pretty. But also you know, I get it, but
also whistleblowers like you should have an avenue to me
the question where somebody is willing to explain to you
you don't have the need to know, but it's okay, right,
(41:06):
and and give you that with with a with a
not just authority, but with a compassion and appreciation.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
I can I can see how you are very concerned
about this, and I appreciate that you are very concerned
because you want people to be safe.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
And the fact that you're putting dots together like EPR,
I'm ready to I'm ready to promote you because you
are putting dots together.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, and so it's.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Sad that we don't have that kind of policy or
that kind of procede. You're in place to reach the policies.
But the truth is that sensitive and topsy that you
don't have the need to know. You don't just release
things when you don't know. We just don't. I'm sorry.
I mean, I'm sorry. People in military uniforms are at risk.
(41:50):
Their lives are at risk. So your little discomfort your
desk shop can just sit there, quit, just walk away,
and then say on the internet. Please God.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, it's not like in you know, nineteen seventy thank you,
you didn't have any outlet for it.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Thank you, Like you have an outlet. Go, go make
your argument, but don't release the actual top secret information
because you can say what you want to say, and
there are some lines, there's actually some freedom of speech
lines that apply to you for now, oh you, I
mean anyway for now.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Next time. Oh my gosh, we're going one last time.
I can't believe we're going to visit with Joe Goldberg
in You. It's the fifth and final season. I have
just come out on Netflix, and we're going to talk
about just the first episode. I'm going to watch them all.
I mean I may have already watched them.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
And then I'm going to watch them and repeat. I
have to be alone. I have to be alone. Well,
it's kind of Bridgers in I can't watch that other.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
People, right, yeah, no, because it makes you feel icky.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Well, I think other people might be jealous about how
much iantic I enjoy. Oh my god, I mean nothing.
I mean, I'm sorry, but Joe Goldberg brings out some
like weird feelings. I mean, right, I need some weird feelings.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, because to be loved to that heart is so
like appealing but also trupling.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I mean, if they would just stop resisting. Oh god, okay,
see that's the weird feeling.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Penn Bagley's hot. Oh, Joe Goldberg, while we understand why
he is appealing to so many women, is not hot
because serial colors are not hot.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
He doesn't mean to be. He knows my Starbucks order. Joe.
Pen Bagley does such a good job of explaining all
of this, But we are still going to I'm still
going to indulge myself.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That's right, yes, exactly. Well, and partly you can indulge
yourself because you know it's fiction.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Oh that's so true.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
So thank you so much for listening. We know you
make a choice when you listen to us. We don't
just come on the radio. You make a choice. You downloast,
you put us in your ears. Tell a friend it's
more fun when you can listen with a friend, rate
and review wherever you get your shows. And until next time,
be safe, be kind and wash your hands.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Bom bom
Welcome back to Killerphone, where we explore the intersection of
crime and entertainment every other week. I'm Chrissy and today today,
as promised another episode of stuff from When No One
Sees Us. Because there was so much that we had
to talk about the show, I had another basically full
(00:32):
episode of stuff that I had to remove, so I
basically have an entire full episode for you all this
little stuff here the beginning, like what we normally talk about. Obviously,
we're not going to talk about the cast or recap
or where it was filmed, but we do have some
thoughts about the show that we talked about before we
(00:53):
actually started recording. We talk about having gone to see
a Brown Talk, which was so awesome. The show was
filmed in Spain. Jackie went to Spain. Cool. So I'm
gonna send y'all right into that. It's so good and
(01:14):
worth hearing enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Some other things I've forgotten to tell you. I am certain,
but I will think.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Sorry if you think of it, then like tell, I'll
pause and I'll write, I'll make a note.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I won't I won't pause this, I mean I'll delete
it out of there.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
But okay, because I know how it is you know
how it is. I do know how it.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Is to make sure I know what episodes because I stopped.
I stopped mid third episode.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Okay, just I watched everything that was out up until
when I stopped watching, which was like through episode seven. Yeah,
I mean it's it's like just compelling enough, like it's
really good. But there's like I even read light I'm
not even talk about it during the episode, but like
(02:03):
I read like a commentary by the director and he
was like, I didn't want to do something that left
you with a big cliffhanger every single episode. He's like,
that's not this the way I wanted to tell this story.
And I'm like, oh, okay, I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's nice.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Actually that's fine. But also like when it was like
the next time, I'm like, well, I could just let
it run.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Okay. So episode three it was good. I was a
little tired but kind of wired by the time I
decided I was going to go back and watch a
couple more. Yeah, and so I did also then get
out my phone because it was just slow enough. Yeah,
and then I got into real I hit pause to
watch one reel and then got sucked in.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah. That was it.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So I never went back to it, but I think
it's great. I think I will. I will go back
and it's good.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
It's like just enough anyway, Yes, okay, so she did.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Go yeah, yeah, well because we want to bring it. Yes,
that was so good.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I mean, it was so good. Wasn't it great? She
was so like, I mean encouraging and like it's nice
to know. It's nice to know that all the big
business leaders are also freaking the fuck out.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Right, But then, like her whole thing about the speaking
in metaphor, go pay take a poetry class, huh, I
feel like, well, it gave me some ammo. But I'm
still yeah, but you have to communicate your findings, yes,
and you and it's not just that you have to
do it in metaphor. I was like, I told, and
I told, I told my dual credit students about that.
(03:43):
I was like, by the way, so take the damn
poetry class. Like y'all y'all need to know. Y'all need
to know how to do this right because and I'm like, listen,
I get it, but.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Also but also you have to be able to communicate.
That's yeah, it's really important, and it's.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Not just about technol writing anymore. Like I still teach
technical writing, but it is really important. I told my
writing students about it too, because I was like, I
get it. I'm teaching you technical writing, and like, I'm
teaching you we're talking about writing a psychology and essays,
but you're going to have to do all the rest
of this.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, you have to be able to write your abstract
in a manner that speaks to anybody who could benefit
from your research, not just people who have the academic
understanding exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So you know what I had them doing class, because
we do this. I've done exercises similar to this, and
I had done it before, Like I have them write
a log line as if their paper was being optioned
by Hollywood. Oh, write the log line for your movie,
Like what are you? What is your argument? What is
a story you're trying to tell? Because you don't get
to write a story in your essay the same way,
but it is nonetheless, which is what makes it a
(04:48):
hard skill. But and then write the tagline right, like
give it a tech. So then I had them write
an abstract. Well after Brene Browns, I was like, I
have a new app writing exercise I'm going to try out.
I had them write it as a blog post. Oh
that's great, right, like translate the abstract to a blog
post where you're using just common language. I told him
about that, you know, I was like, look, I get it.
(05:11):
You know you're gonna have to You're gonna have to
write in APA and honestly concise and clarity and all
of that, and logic still applies, but if you don't
understand it, it'll become very clear when you try to
make this metaphor right. And so all that's doing, all
the poetry, all the metaphor, all it's doing is weeding
out those who can't make the logic.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Oh h and a can of it.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm kind of excited about.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah. Well, And you know what's a good example of
that is the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lax Because she
was a writer and she had to work really hard
to understand the science and why the science was being exploited,
why it was being used, why it was important. Right,
(05:57):
But then she figured out how to tell a story
around that that made that science that she worked really
hard to understand also accessible to the readers of her book.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, I mean pure research. Even like twenty twenty two,
about seventy five percent of individuals are interested in science,
but more than anything else. Like if you divide it
up in the type of sciences as sciences that are
a story, an emotional story, personal story number one, Yeah,
people are interested in that. So being able to say
it and then you know, bring an ai to the conversation, right,
(06:33):
like being able to prompt properly and be able to
put the put a metaphor test, like she didn't say
it this way. What I heard is okay Ai spits
out something, change it to a metaphor, and see if
the logic stands, because either it's going to translate to
a beautiful story it makes sense, or it doesn't. Right,
(06:55):
And that's your litmus test. You don't have to be
a philosopher to understand the logic. Try to put a metaphor.
If you can't in an't logical right, And so it
makes you a better prompter. And also it makes you
more critically thinking, which we're gonna need uh huh, right,
We're gonna need it in so many ways. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, And I put down my coffee and I pick
up my.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah, I went to Spain when I was in college.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, why does my friend We went to Keithon id Orton,
h that is Buffie.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, it's the middle of nowhere. Yeah, nowhere.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, I mean we weren't but like forty five minutes
ish from Toledo. But it felt like the middle of nowhere.
But what was interesting And it doesn't have trees, kind
of like San Antonio, but you could stand on kind
of a hillside and you could see each little town.
Oh cool, and so it was very adorable and the
towns were fun. I mean, it wasn't terrible, it was fun,
(07:56):
but it was like it felt like the middle of
nowhere initially. Well, and it's just.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
A much more quiet pace of life.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Right, there's nothing between the towns, right, so there's just
but that means there's all is quiet and like prairie
kind of nature. How me East Coast girl from from
you know, the Origins. I missed some trees, but it
was beautiful like in between the towns.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know. That's really cool. Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So here's how it works. Christie erects her search history.
Hey an essay. We promise it's nothing more nefarious than
a podcast to find out what's true some of the
psychological motivations behind the characters actions and real life applications
that relate to our topic. I have no idea what
Christy decided to look up could be the same thing
that captured my curiosity or something I never thought of.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Is it true? We had lots of stuff from is
it true? For when No One sees Us that had
to be taken out because he had so many great
conversations last time, I opted to include those in the
original episode, and this episode still has plenty of stuff.
(09:10):
We talk about Harry Carey, a chess book, ADHD, meds
and treatments, bleeding eyes, and much more. Enjoy. How about
the Harry Carey? Was it accurately portrayed?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Okay, it was, and I guess Harry Carey is how
you would talk about it outside of Japan.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, but mostly.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
In Japan it would be called suppuku, right, Yeah, that's
and it's a ritualistic self harm where they disembowel themselves
with a either a samurai sword or there or a
knife like what he had, and they did a pretty
good job where he had a rag around the handle.
(10:04):
And that's so that you don't slip and cut your
hand and make it impossible to do finish it well,
to finish it or to make it even more painful.
You want to do it clean, so that it's done
properly and that you don't injure yourself in another way
and make it worse, right.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, yeah, I guess. Yeah, it is hard because it's
a different it's a it's a literal different emotion. Yeah,
that's found in those collectivist cultures that have a sense
of duty, and there's literally a different emotion associated with it. Right,
that's cultural, and so it's very hard to.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
For us to understand.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, I find myself.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
With a block.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, really, I I can understand the kamakazi better than
I can have I can understand.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
This, okay. Well, it was originally reserved for the Amuri
in their code of Honor. Officers at the end of
World War two engaged in some of this to try
and restore honor to themselves and their family.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
And there's right that I've let people down that I have.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Again, it's a penance sort of situation, but it's really
like an ultimate penance situation. It was sometimes a way
to die with honor if you're going to be captured.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Right, right, which again makes more sense.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Right, if you're going to be captured you want to do,
You're going to die honorably you. They can't torture you
for information. It was also capital punishment for some samurai,
and it was often performed in front of spectators, you know,
hangings in the United States and olden days, or I
(11:54):
mean beheadings in England. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Well, because there's a weird humility associated and that's what
that's what makes it a different kind of emotion, because
there's a humility associated with the fact that I know
I cannot withstand the torture, right, I know I will
be broken.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Therefore I will take the ultimate sacrifice because and so
there's a you have to have the humility to be like,
the torture will break me, and I will then dishonor
them further, so I will honor them by preventing this hard.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Right, which that makes sense to me, but it doesn't make.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Sense but when I parse it out, right.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, but I mean there were like samurai who'd done
horrible things that were sentenced to suppuku, and they have
like dinners, they'd serve their favorite meal to all their
friends and family and then at the end of the
meal they would do this and that's.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Like, it is a hard, different emotion.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And it is very very cultural sort of situation. But
it's interesting that it's got this it's like mirrored in
this whole penance of Easter your week and the hardness
of having these long processions and wearing the scarb, and very.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Oddly generational feeling to this too, like that this is
an older emotion that existed in an older world, right
that that newer, younger people are kind of like whoa.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, like I'm not going to carry that generational trauma
ahead because maybe it doesn't need to be. Yeah, like
that car.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Up behind, you know, like you know what I'm saying.
I don't know. It is a very difficult thing to understand.
But you know, we we're only talking about the first episode, right,
but I will say, like there is discussion.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
About his his involvements sure with.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
This almost religiously yes, So it does speak to when
people get involved that they harken back to the traditions
of old because you know, even these processions are a
little bit of a spectator situation. Most people would not
these generations would kind of be like.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well, yeah, and it's this like it's this honor and
family tradition rather than.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Right, it's a family tradition, not like I'm excited to.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
To atone for my sins, right.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Like they've invented wheels, yeah, but they decide to do
it the other way and that. But I think the generationally,
unless you can tie it to a purpose, generations by
generations will lose that and it will become simply this
is how we've always done it. This is the tradition.
And that's kind of where they show they're at. When
(14:48):
they show the people underneath, they're like, oh my gosh,
eye rolls and everything, like they are they are there.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, people underneath the statues that they're carrying around.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
And so like you see this starting to happen, like oh,
these individuals are kind of like they have wheels. Yeah,
it's making me do this. We're gonna have lunch on Sunday. Great, right,
Like there's just this kind of like right, yeah, it
loses something.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
How about that open book that was on Mike Johnson's nightstand,
Strategic Symphony Mastering Advanced Chess Dynamics. Is that a real book?
I think so Okay, it's actually.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Not okay, is it close to something?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Though? Okay, there are a lot of books about chess strategy,
so lots and lots of that. Particular one by je
Nelson is fictional. I'm sure they just didn't want to
pay somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Because it seems very close to something I know is
out there well.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Mastering Chess Strategy is recommended for intermediate players looking to
improve their game by forward chess dot com. I couldn't
find anything that was like super close to that, but
it just I'm like, but that makes okay, that is fictional.
Honestly makes sense to me because people who are looking
(16:11):
for books about chess tend to be pretty like analytical
and they don't appreciate the metaphor so much. Maybe and
Strategic Symphony seems like almost too metaphorical for many chess players.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I did something
about it. It feels like an immagularation, you know, of
like a hundred different right, so it felt very real.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah, they did a good job.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Maybe they should publish this, I mean, for real, if
you have ADHD, please get yourself prescribed adderall a ritalin please,
like just you know, like, but it's right.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
For you, and there's all kinds of and that's the thing,
you know. For I was just listening on MPR the
other day and they were talking about you know, how
you to be. They told every kid who had ADHD
to get on riddle in and now they're like, that
might be right for some people, but there's actually lots
of other things that you can other interventions that you
(17:11):
can take before you resort to that that can really
be helpful. And it's more of an occupational therapy thing,
but you have to actually recognize that it's a difference
in your brain and not an epidemic of some kind.
That it's like, it's not a catchy sort of thing.
(17:32):
We're better at diagnosing it now than we used to be,
and that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, I mean, also, just as effective as riddle in
an adderall is an environmental change, sure.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, and that's it. That's like, you need to change
these environments and give people, not just children but people
the opportunity to find different ways to handle that, and
then if those things don't work, then you move on
to the medication. But it's not.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
It's it's oh gosh, this is so sticky. Oh I'm
just gonna ADHD is a cultural diagnosis, sure and in
some ways, and it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but
we overpathologize individual differences and the way that we contribute
and the way that we have cognitive thought and perception,
(18:25):
and so we overdiagnose. And really what we're doing a
lot of times is diagnosing and prescribing medication to make
them fit into a box, when all we have to
do is say, oh, you're like this to do this and.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Go be over here and do this thing instead, because
that's going to be better suited to you. But we
can't cure it by sending people to I don't know,
work camps and things.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
No, we can't. And you know, the problem is that
retalin and like adderall are all short lived drugs, right,
They go out of your body. Right, So in the
same way that like well, caffeine, you if you tend
to take like a little you know, a good three
shot Starbucks and it helps you focus in the middle
of the day, you could take a Riddlin or an
(19:11):
adderall and it's kind of like you have to make decisions,
you know, are you going to take it for the
thing you need? To focus on because that's meaningful for you,
or is that not your thing? And maybe something else.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Is actually doesn't improve like test scores.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Oh not so much, because it's nothing without the coping skills.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
If you don't know how to study for something, helping
you focus means you're focusing on nothing. So the Riddlin
and the adderall are only helpful if you actually use
them to then learn the code the skills that you
need to learn that maybe you didn't learn because you
weren't focused enough, right, But the truth is that it's
still short lived, and you can take it for that
very specific thing. But a you will never cure your
(19:53):
your individual differences in the way that you cognitively think
and participate. Also, you'll be an inch shorter, just think
about that, right for sure?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well, and I mean that's what they were saying was
that once they put these children who on medications like Riddlin,
they were having these adverse health effects like being shorter.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Being shorter is number one.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Right, and or you know, less bone density some of
these things that are like, yeah, an effect of the medication.
And the kids were better behaved in school, but their
test scores weren't e better.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Their test scores weren't different well, because we thought that
that if they just focused, they'd be like everybody else.
And it's like, that's ridiculous if they missed out on
valuable lessons of how to focus and study and memory
and all that stuff because they weren't focused before. Right,
we know, you can't remember something you didn't pay attention
(20:50):
to if they weren't paying attention.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
To all that.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Giving them the drug is I gotta fix that. You
still have to learn how to do the thing. And
many people do right, Many people do right. The drugging,
I'll fix it. And for a lot of people, honestly,
I mean, just just go to Starbucks. It gives yourself
some caffeine.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Or you know, let's give that. Our children some interventions,
like maybe they need. They have these like rubber bands
that you can put on desks so that they can
move their feet, and that kind of stimulation can help
them concentrate.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yes, because it's controlling your stimulus. Because you're under You're
usually people the ADHD the brain differences is that your
neurotransmitters are lower such that your threshold for stimulus is
a little higher. So having those things can help stimulate
your brain and create the same sort of baseline, right,
(21:43):
other people have with that stimulus, so then you can focus.
There's so many good things right out there. And you
know what, let's not overpathologizing individual differences.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Right, I mean, these kids aren't broken. They're not broken,
just different and that's okay. Well, and they're hardly different.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I mean, but like you know what I mean, Like,
if I was to normalize the data which we have,
they're not really that different. They're different on different traits. Yeah, right,
but we're all different on different traits, but society values
some traits over other traits, which is why I say
it's a cultural diagnosis. Look at ourselves, box.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I know. So a doctor said that heat exhaustion wouldn't
cause ones eyes to believe, No, okay, not typically, but
hemolacria can be induced, which is crying. Tears can be
(22:52):
induced by intense exercise, particularly in heat. So exhaust of
exercise could could could in some people cause that sort
of situation. Yeah, which it's usually harmless, it usually resolves itself.
(23:13):
It is always something that is an indication of something
else that's happening. Right, It's not like you would just
cry tears of blood. There's going to be something else happening,
probably in your eyes, but it could be induced. It
would be rare more often have like the whites of
(23:34):
somebody's eyes where we get bloody right, where they would
have it would be become red and that again, that
will also resolve. But crying tears, bloody tears wouldn't be
absolutely something that would never happen for me.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Exhaustion underlying a condition that the heat exhaustion would be
some sort of catalysts, right, some sort of mediator.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Right, But that for the doctor to just completely dismiss it.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Without checking, right, Okay, he was.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Right to ask what kind of drugs were you taking?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Well, that's true, right, Yeah, but it's not a super
uncommon thing to have tears that have a little bit
of blood in them for a reason.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, but it's usually harmless.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, it looks scary.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So Antonio was a Japanese culture expert and he had
a secret online life where he went by the Japanese
name Shadow, which is shadow Japanese. Is that the word
for shadows in Japanese? Okay, it is, but it's not
the most common word for shadow in Japanese. The most
(24:56):
common word for shadow is kaja, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And shadow is like it's a little like.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Me or like every ikea furniture name, right, Like it
all kind of sounds like a thing, right, But they're
all real words but or towns or whatever, right, but
they're they just apply them in a way. But and
that's kind of what it was going for. But k
(25:26):
jay is a little more poetic and it's generally what
they talk about when they're talking about shadows. But also, uh,
their tradition of architecture is such that they really pay
attention to how the light comes into a building and
(25:46):
creates shadows, and they use it very artistically.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
So do they say shadow.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It's not as common, Yes they do, yes, But.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Is that an adaptation from an English word.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
That I could find?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Accent? Not that I could find, because like we lived
in Korea and they didn't have a word for dry cleaning.
Literally the word was dry cleaning, but in their accent
it almost sounds like a different word, but it's not
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, not that I could find, so, but it's interesting. Yes,
the one that Antonio war was a little more plain.
But they do they can be pretty.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Scary, I mean, okay, I can't. I can't, I can't,
I have to. I'm so sorry. I loved the mask.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Oh with Jim Carrey, Yes, yeah, it's such a good moment.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, with the wooden is the whole thing? Oh my gosh,
it was so good.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I wonder if that holds up.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
It's been a minute, Yeah I have. I don't know that.
I didn't really like that era of Jim Carrey.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
You didn't like that whole thing?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Oh, not so much. I never watched it. I might
appreciate it in a different way, now.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
So did you not like a Sventura?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I didn't love it. Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Interesting? What about Liar Liar?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I loved Liar Liars? That was normal, right, but it
was a different kind of it was less fantastical.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Right, And it was him just being a comical guy, right.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It was like a comical acting with a like a message, right.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, well, like he was just an everyday dude who
happened to be kind of funny, right, right. And they
even played that up like the one thing the ex
wife likes about that he was funny, right.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And also where he was got Bruce almighty. Oh yeah,
that was right, that same kind of that kind of
I like that era of Jim Carrey, not so much
the mask and less.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
See, I loved the mask because when the mask was off,
he was just a normally guy. Yeah that was kind
of witty. But when the mask was on, he was
completely somebody else. Right of loved it. It was really fun.
Oh Jim Carrey, so he's so good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
All of the sources that we use to inform our
discussion here on Killer Fund Podcast can be found on
our social media. Join us on Facebook at Killer Fun Podcast,
exploring the intersection of crime and entertainment. You can find
us on Twitter at killer Funpod, or you can send
us an email at Killerfunpodcast at gmail dot com and
(28:23):
I'll be happy to share a link to whatever information
you're looking for. We love to hear from you. You
might learn a little something too. For our psychology breaks section,
we have a bunch of personal stuff that we talked about.
I left in a lot of things that we talked
about about masks that had to do with information from
(28:46):
the sources that we found. Here's all the personal stuff
that we talked about.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Enjoy and I will that is a that is a
performative part of my personality, that kind of love. Yeah,
because it allows me to go into any situation and
put on the mask of confidence, and that challenge built that.
Sure there was negative effect, it's so what I've overwhelmed
or overcome that.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
This is the most frustrating thing I think about being
a human and about being a woman, is that some
of the things you value about your personality the most
came from trauma in ways that are that were inappropriate
for you to be treated as a child, and yet
(29:30):
it has made you as an adult, giving you the
skills to be able to cope or formed your personality
in ways that you really like. And it's so maddening.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well it is, but I guess I would. I would,
I would maybe put a different spin on it. I
don't know that I would call it trauma, Okay, I
would call it a challenge. Okay, I mean peers not
accepting you is not trauma, right, Like that's here, Like, okay,
the men looking at me, I now know they were
going to do that anyway, especially at church. I'm sorry,
(30:06):
But so a little bit of that is like puts
a rest. Yeah, it's not trauma for me. When I
got older and continue to re examine my life, there
may be been a short period where I was like,
that's traumatic, Like they looked at me like that, And
then I got older and was.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Like, yeah, they were going to look at you like
that no matter what you were wearing.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, So I just just s completely.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
But maybe I'm putting some of my own stuff on that,
because there's trauma that happened when I was young that
has given me skills in my adult life that I
really appreciate and parts of my personality that I really like.
And I'm like, yeah, but those situations were bad, and they.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Were bad, and I think that can be fair for trauma,
and I think and it can be fair for any
kind of challenge. But we do know that challenge develops personality.
What we hope is that somebody isn't a traumatic event
that also comes with not just the development of skills
and traits that are helpful, but also adverse impacts and
baggage that has to be dealt with alongside in order
(31:07):
to leverage those skills to their best degree. I didn't
have to go through time. That's why I do always
say I call it trauma right because it wasn't long
before I realized, like, this is a thing I have
because I didn't have to deal with some sort of
extra baggage associated with that. I've had plenty of other
trauma in my life, and there's skills and things I've
learned from it that are great, but there was other
(31:28):
things to search through that were actually dragging me down
before I could learn to leverage that. So trauma can
still be helpful, Right, Freud knew that. Freud knew that
that you that you could put the trauma of something
towards something good. But the truth is, no matter what
every time we study it, it's challenge that builds resilience.
(31:51):
It is wait resistance that builds muscle, it is puzzles
that build your mental acuity. It is all ways some
sort of challenge and obstacle. What we hope is that
it's not trauma, so that you have to go through
all of this extra You're right to find out what
was the gen So so the thing is to have
(32:13):
challenge without trauma. Yes, absolutely, because God bless my mom.
She was trying and she just made the wrong choice. Right, Yeah,
she did not love me in that.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Moment, right, she loved you so much, so much. She
went too.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Far, She went too far. God bless her. She realized
her error later when she saw me one day and
my little outfit, and she was.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Like, ah, yeah you look.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, I do very much because now I'm not ever
not wearing God bless her Lord. I know, because we
have so much to say about that. You know though,
that was like, I feel like that conversation must resonate
with people.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I think everybody. Yeah, everybody resonates with that.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, that thing absolutely yeah. And last up real life.
We had lots of outtakes from real life. We talk
about panic attacks and hallucinations. Snowden and Manning enjoying actual
hallucinations are kind of rare. With panic attacks, oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah.
(33:26):
The er doctor seemed to indicate that they are common,
that they were super common, and uh no, but panic
attacks can make you feel like you're hallucinating. Which is
so interesting because this is really interesting article on self
dot com and they talk a lot about Megan Trainer
(33:48):
in this article, which I'm not going to talk about,
but you should go read this article because it's really interesting.
A New York City based psychologist, Michael Brunstein had this
to say, as a matter of fact, one of the
sentences of a panic attack is feeling like you're losing
your mind or going crazy. Because of all the physical
reactions they're having, such as increased breathing, sweating, heart beating, faster,
(34:11):
feeling faint. People might interpret what's going on around them
as though they're having a hallucination. Someone in the midst
of their panic attack might attribute a shadow and their
peripheral vision or flickering light to I'm seeing things. However,
that experience is not technically a hallucination. So you can
(34:35):
feel depersonalized or detached, and that may feel like a hallucination,
but it's not technically a hallucination.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, people understand panic attacks very well.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
No, because panic attack not even doctors, not at least
not doctors in this TV show.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Well, because they're not psychologists, right, because you know, it's
psychologists and well psychiatrists that deal with panic attacks. Panic
attacks don't necessarily respond to external stimuli. They can with
an underlying condition. But what most people call a panic
attack is actually like an overwhelmed breakdown. Well, we might
(35:17):
traditionally call it nervous breakdown. Huh, that's not the same thing.
The panic attack is actually your fighter flight system responding
to natural differences in your body.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Okay, so your heart rate goes up.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
You might be walking upstairs. Yeah, your heart rate fluctuates
all the time. Your heart rate might fluctuate because the
air quality has changed, but your body feels it and
it feels like a sign. And then your brain interprets
that internal stimuli as something of a threat, and so
then it becomes a snowball because then, oh, a threat.
(35:54):
Guess what happens after that? Your heart rate goes up?
Oh no, do you see the closed loop? So all
of this stuff starts to happen. So it's your fight
or flight response responding arrently to natural changes in your
body that create similar things to happen when you are
in flight or flight. Sweating, heart rate go up, all
these kind of things, your vision focusing, maybe you're hungry, right,
(36:16):
And you misinterpret all of these kind of things as
being some sort of red flag that something is happening,
And it's almost like not not really ever to external simulate.
If you are responding to external stimuli, you're a you're
in a different situation.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, it's a attack, right, and that is all I mean,
not that a panic attack is valid, it's just you
and treatment treatment for it is really sure.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
It's not a heart attack. Please, But also by rolling
off the heart attack, we can tell, Okay, this is
a panic attack. Have you had these before? Are you
afraid of having this situation happening? Because then we can
actually intervene in ways that are very helpful. Also, if
you're having like a of a quote unquote nervous breakdown
where you're really just overwhelmed with everything that's happening, also
a sign please get help. You don't need the same
(37:07):
help as a panic attack.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Right, Okay, Well, we're just gonna briefly uh talk about
how uh Magalle was investigating the disappearance of Miles Yes,
and uh Hooperen was not excited about her being there,
and nobody like no, but but he was like really
(37:32):
and she was like, we don't want another Snowden, Rye
or Manning And I'm like, oh, yeah, Edward Snowden. Oh
he worked for the NSA. Yeah, the uh National Security
Agency if you're unfamiliar. He was indicted for espionage because
(37:53):
he was this I'm almost loath to call him a
whistleblower because he is and he did say he tried
to go through proper channels to get some of the
things addressed, and nobody had listened to him. But however,
I don't know that he also had the full picture
of everything. Anyway, He's a Russian citizen since September of
(38:17):
twenty twenty two, yep, And I think that says some
things about him. And then Chelsea Manning was a similar situation.
Was an Army soldier who was court martialed in twenty
thirteen for violations of the Espionage Act after seven hundred
(38:39):
and fifty thousand classified or unclassified but sensitive military and
diplomatic documents to WikiLeaks. Yes, I don't know how to
feel about that President Obama commuted the sentence. I don't know.
I mean, I feel like there's more there that I
don't know about.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I mean, I feel like we've done a better job
of putting actually policies with procedures that back it up
sure to protect whistle blowers people who have feel feltus.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
We want whistle blowers to expose things that are not
being dealt with, but also we want policies in place
to deal with the things so that they nobody has
to whistle blow.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Right Well, Also, like if you whistle blow and you
receive information that explains or maybe you're not privy to
to just but for somebody who is in the need
to know to say that this isn't what you think
it is, we have to be able to trust that
to a degree. And I understand it, like I get
it people want to do. I mean, it's kind of like,
(39:41):
oh my god, I'm about to say something. It's kind
of like January sixth, Oh, okay. If you are one
of the individuals who actually believed that the election was stolen,
I empathize with your need to do the extreme because
that it feels like a very extreme violation. And so
(40:04):
I don't fault you for that feeling if you actually
believe that. I do fault you for your cognitive and
you're you know, a critical thinking I do. And I
even have empathy for how you got down that rabbit hole,
because in today's world, I get it. But like I understand,
like you're a passionate person. Given the right information, you
(40:25):
would be on my team.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
So I understand that I have empathy for that, which
is weird to say, but I do. And so a
lot of these individuals who became like Wiki leakers, you
know they felt the same way. But that's the thing.
You have to have some humility that you don't know,
which you don't know if you are in that situation,
you don't have the need to know a lot.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yes, Also signal doesn't have the need to know a lot,
So like we should care to kind of keep things
like pretty. But also you know, I get it, but
also whistleblowers like you should have an avenue to me
the question where somebody is willing to explain to you
you don't have the need to know, but it's okay, right,
(41:06):
and and give you that with with a with a
not just authority, but with a compassion and appreciation.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
I can I can see how you are very concerned
about this, and I appreciate that you are very concerned
because you want people to be safe.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
And the fact that you're putting dots together like EPR,
I'm ready to I'm ready to promote you because you
are putting dots together.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, and so it's.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Sad that we don't have that kind of policy or
that kind of procede. You're in place to reach the policies.
But the truth is that sensitive and topsy that you
don't have the need to know. You don't just release
things when you don't know. We just don't. I'm sorry.
I mean, I'm sorry. People in military uniforms are at risk.
(41:50):
Their lives are at risk. So your little discomfort your
desk shop can just sit there, quit, just walk away,
and then say on the internet. Please God.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, it's not like in you know, nineteen seventy thank you,
you didn't have any outlet for it.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Thank you, Like you have an outlet. Go, go make
your argument, but don't release the actual top secret information
because you can say what you want to say, and
there are some lines, there's actually some freedom of speech
lines that apply to you for now, oh you, I
mean anyway for now.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Next time. Oh my gosh, we're going one last time.
I can't believe we're going to visit with Joe Goldberg
in You. It's the fifth and final season. I have
just come out on Netflix, and we're going to talk
about just the first episode. I'm going to watch them all.
I mean I may have already watched them.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
And then I'm going to watch them and repeat. I
have to be alone. I have to be alone. Well,
it's kind of Bridgers in I can't watch that other.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
People, right, yeah, no, because it makes you feel icky.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Well, I think other people might be jealous about how
much iantic I enjoy. Oh my god, I mean nothing.
I mean, I'm sorry, but Joe Goldberg brings out some
like weird feelings. I mean, right, I need some weird feelings.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, because to be loved to that heart is so
like appealing but also trupling.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I mean, if they would just stop resisting. Oh god, okay,
see that's the weird feeling.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Penn Bagley's hot. Oh, Joe Goldberg, while we understand why
he is appealing to so many women, is not hot
because serial colors are not hot.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
He doesn't mean to be. He knows my Starbucks order. Joe.
Pen Bagley does such a good job of explaining all
of this, But we are still going to I'm still
going to indulge myself.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That's right, yes, exactly. Well, and partly you can indulge
yourself because you know it's fiction.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Oh that's so true.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
So thank you so much for listening. We know you
make a choice when you listen to us. We don't
just come on the radio. You make a choice. You downloast,
you put us in your ears. Tell a friend it's
more fun when you can listen with a friend, rate
and review wherever you get your shows. And until next time,
be safe, be kind and wash your hands.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Bom bom
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