September 10, 2025 • 38 mins
How can self-doubt become a catalyst for growth instead of a roadblock? On this episode of Late Boomers, Merry and Cathy sit down with Amy L. Bernstein, author of Wrangling the Doubt Monster. Amy opens up about her shift from a high-pressure career to the joy of writing, sharing practical wisdom on managing doubt, facing rejection, and navigating the publishing world. She reveals how small, intentional changes can unlock new possibilities and why embracing vulnerability is essential for personal growth. Tune in to discover how to “change the channel” on self-criticism and lean into your creative passions with courage
Amy L. Bernstein's Bio:
Amy L. Bernstein is the author, most recently, of Wrangling the Doubt Monster: Fighting Fears, Finding Inspiration, shortlisted for the Eric Hoffer Grand Prize. Amy's mystery-thriller, The Potrero Complex, was a 2020 Petrichor Prize Finalist and her paranormal mystery, The Nighthawkers earned a silver medal from BookFest in 2022. Her fifth novel, Seed, will be published by Running Wild Press in 2027. Amy teaches writing and creativity workshops and brings an empowering message to writers and multi-media artists around the world. Her weekly Substack, Doubt Monster, explores the realities of living a creative life.
Special Offer:
Take this unique survey, the Doubt Decoder, to discover the extent to which doubt affects your everyday life, from family to finances. Your score might surprise you! https://submit.jotform.com/250468635432156
Connect with Amy:
Website: https://amywrites.live
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@amylbernstein00author
Facebook: https://facebook.com/AmyLBernsteinAuthor
Instagram: https://instagram.com/amylbernstein
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/amylbernstein
Threads: https://www.threads.com/@amylbernstein
Thank you for listening. Please check out @lateboomers on Instagram and our website lateboomers.us. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to watch it or listen to more of our episodes, you will find Late Boomers on your favorite podcast platform and on our new YouTube Late Boomers Podcast Channel. We hope we have inspired you and we look forward to your becoming a member of our Late Boomers family of subscribers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
This is the EWN Podcast Network.
Cathy (00:14):
Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide to creating
your third act with style,power, and impact. Hi. I'm Cathy
Worthington.
Merry (00:24):
And I'm Merry Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations with successfulentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.
Cathy (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you along for the
ride on each interview,recounting the journey our
guests have taken to get wherethey are, inspiring you to
create your own path to success.Let's get started.
I'm Cathy Worthington. Hello, and welcome to late
(00:54):
boomers, the podcast where weexplore the adventures, choices,
and challenges of life after 50.
Merry (01:01):
And I'm Merry Elkins. We know that as baby boomers, we've
made a lot of big decisions inour lives, careers, family,
lifestyle, and now we're makingchoices that shape this exciting
new chapter of our lives.
Cathy (01:15):
But let's be honest, sometimes those choices come
with a little voice of doubt.Should I try something new? Am I
too old to start over?
Merry (01:24):
So today, we wanna remind you doubt is normal. It just
means you're stretching, you'regrowing, and pushing beyond your
comfort zone. The trick is notto let doubt stop you from
moving forward.
Cathy (01:37):
And that's why we're so excited about our guest today,
Amy L. Bernstein, who literallywrote the book on this topic,
Wrangling the Doubt Monster.
Merry (01:47):
Amy's a writer, a coach, and creativity advocate who
helps people navigate the veryfears that hold them back. Her
book is all about identifyingdoubt, managing it, and turning
it into a tool for growthinstead of a roadblock.
Cathy (02:03):
So let's dive in and learn how to wrestle that
monster and win. Amy, welcome toLate Boomers.
Amy L.Bernstein (02:10):
Thank you so much, Cathy and Merry. I'm
really glad to be here with you.
Merry (02:13):
And so great to have you. Tell us how we stop doubting
ourselves so much.
Amy L.Bernstein (02:19):
Well, I think if we stop doubting, then we're
not really human. I do thinkthat I do think that doubt is a
normal part of our psychologicalmakeup. It's, fine to doubt.
Doubt can even work sometimes inour favor. If you think about,
for example, a surgeon whopauses before making an
(02:40):
incision, you know, that surgeonmay having that moment of
productive doubt, which is, isthis the right am I do I have
the right tool?
Is it the right limb? And sodoubt can be a force for good,
but I often say, you know, itcould be a friend or a foe. So
my my my belief is that we canlearn to manage our doubts and
(03:01):
we can learn to walk with ourdoubts, but we'll never entirely
banish doubt nor should we.
Merry (03:07):
So you make a friend of doubt?
Amy L.Bernstein (03:11):
I think sometimes it can be a friend and
but very often, particularlypeople who are real in really
creative endeavors, whetherthat's entrepreneurs or or
writers or or people of, youknow, doing anything creative,
it may not feel like yourfriend. It may be that voice
that's sort of telling you overand over and over, oh, you know,
(03:32):
what made you think you could dothis? You're probably not good
enough. It probably isn't goingto work. You're going to fail.
You're going to be embarrassed.You know, everything's going to
go wrong. Those thoughts aresuch a normal part of taking
risks. Right? And but we don'tgrow.
As you said at the outset, Mary,we really don't grow without
(03:53):
taking those risks. And so partof what we need to do is let the
sort of scary aspects of selfdoubt, which feels like this
giant set of brakes sort ofmaking us come to a screeching
halt, We need to let thosebreaks operate, and yet we don't
sort of stop going forwardcompletely. So we live with the
(04:14):
scary aspect of that, but youkeep going forward. It really is
a pretty significant mindsetchange from calling a halt to
going forward with doubt asopposed to letting it stop you.
Cathy (04:27):
Great. Yeah. I love that. Love it. Well, how can people
bring more creative joy intotheir lives, especially at
midlife and beyond?
Amy L.Bernstein (04:41):
Yes. You know, this is something like you, I
mean, I have lived this and and,really learned so much about
doing this. I had a high payingstressful job for a number of
years. And while I was doingwell at it, I was not feeling
like my full self. I wasn'treaching my full potential.
(05:01):
I wasn't being who I thought Ineeded to be. But in order to
become who I really needed tobe, I was going to have to make
a lot of changes. I was going tohave to find different kinds of
work that didn't take up so muchtime, and I was going to have to
open myself up to being sovulnerable to doing trying new
things, particularly in a fieldlike writing. So I think, you
(05:23):
know, we have that day inmidlife where I think we wake up
and we like the Peggy Lee song,we say, is this all there is?
You know?
Like, the song is guess is thatall there is? If that's all
there is, my friend. You know?So I think and so we we, you
know, we've I I did what I callthe big pivot, and many people
in midlife do this big pivot orthey approach it, and I I really
(05:46):
have to advocate for it. It's soscary, and it means beginning to
make small changes in your lifethat add up to bigger changes so
that you can open yourself up tobecoming the person you still
want to be and you don't feelfeel that you are.
It's about making
Cathy (06:05):
become space sources of joy then. Yes.
Amy L.Bernstein (06:09):
Oh, absolutely. It's scary. It's incremental.
You know, people often thinkthat if if they're discontent
and they wanna be living adifferent life, they think,
well, I can't do that because Ihave to base basically just blow
up my life, and I'm not going todo that. You don't have to blow
up your life.
You know, you can you can lookfor ways to continue to earn a
(06:31):
salary maybe in a job that wherethe commute is shorter, so you
take back time. I did that.Where the responsibility is a
little bit less so that it's notweighing on you twenty four
seven. I did that. And in doingmoves like that over a period of
time, I began to open up morespace in my life for taking a
(06:52):
course in playwriting, formeeting other writers, for
getting to understand howtheater works, for starting a
novel.
So I made space for these thingsthat I didn't have room for, but
I really did do it gradually,and I changed that balance over
time. I want everybody whoapproaches this pivot point when
you wake up and you say, youknow, is that all there is? Know
(07:15):
that you have the ability tomake these incremental changes
that will add up to the bigchange that will really
transform you. It just doesn'thave to be all at once. It
doesn't have to be that scary.
Merry (07:26):
Oh, that resonates. I have two questions. Do you have
that sounds like a great way, areal strategy to manage self
doubt. Do you have otherstrategies that you can actually
list for us? And also
Amy L.Bernstein (07:42):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Merry (07:43):
Also, on the second question, kind of well, it it
ties in. It's all about handlingrejection. So two questions.
Amy L.Bernstein (07:54):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about
some strategies for how to sortof manage doubt. And, again,
this is all in our heads.
Right? So that we're alwaystalking here about mindset,
about making deliberatepsychological shifts in the way
we think. So one of the thingsthat I talk about is how we
learn to change the channel inour heads as if we had multiple
(08:15):
radio dials in our heads. And itso happens, and this is
particularly true for women,that dial is set to the self
critic station. Right?
I did this wrong. I wish I haddone this differently. I
probably shouldn't do x. Right?It's there.
And so it's just we live there.Right? And that's in our heads.
What we need to do is giveourselves permission to tweak
(08:39):
that dial because what you'rethe station you're not playing
is all the your own greatesthits, all the amazing things you
have already done, the successesyou've already have, the the the
the ways that you've exceededyour expectations, you know,
throughout your life in so manydifferent ways, large and small.
(08:59):
So you need we need to changethe channel and play that
station because, you know, thedoubts the doubts are not, as I
said at the outset, it's notthat they're going to evaporate.
I don't think that's realistic.But we have to do a reset here
on the balance so that it's notjust the negativity. Now there's
something very related to that.It's one thing if you change the
(09:21):
channel in your own head, so tospeak, or at least you play that
nice channel a little moreoften. Right?
But it's really important tosurround yourself with allies
that could be people or it canbe institutions that are going
to support the changes you wantto make, the journey that you
want to take, the pivot that youfeel called to do. You wanna
(09:45):
surround yourself with peopleand institutions that will say,
go for it. This is great. You'reon the right track. We support
you.
It may feel weird and crazy andstrange, and you feel like
you're stepping off into thinair. That's okay. We're here to
be with you and to catch you.
Cathy (10:00):
That's so true, Amy, because so many times
Amy L.Bernstein (10:03):
Yes.
Cathy (10:03):
Family and friends can pull people down.
Amy L.Bernstein (10:06):
That's absurd. Them. That's right. So our our
adversaries can be peopleparadoxically who love us. They
can it can be a partner, aspouse, a sibling, a best
friend, and they will pull usdown because they don't
understand our intentions forourselves.
They don't see or share ourvision, and people are afraid to
(10:30):
watch other people make change.It's scary. It's scary to watch.
And they're they're so afraidyou're going to fail and be
hurt. They don't want that foryou.
And so I this I give this littlebit of advice. When you're
surrounded by adversaries, youneed to distance yourself from
them politely. If these arepeople who are close to you in
your life, that doesn't mean youstop talking to them. But what
(10:51):
you do is you say to them, youknow, I can see that my desire
to do x is making youuncomfortable, and maybe you
don't fully understand it.That's okay.
This is something that means alot to me, and I'm going to do
it. And if you'd rather not talkabout it anymore, that's fine
too. We don't have to talk aboutSo you give them permission to
pull away from that piece ofyou, and you give yourself
(11:14):
permission to go forward withouthaving to have that adversarial
conversation every time you seethis person.
Cathy (11:20):
Yeah. That would be such a
Amy L.Bernstein (11:21):
relief you. Thanksgiving and go to
Thanksgiving and tell your wholefamily, Yes. I'm yes. I'm
writing a book. No.
It's not finished. No. I don'tknow when it'll be finished, but
I absolutely love the joy ofwriting. I'm on an incredible
journey of exploration, learningso much about myself, and now we
don't have to talk about itanymore. Then it's Woo hoo.
Cathy (11:40):
It it does everyone. Right?
Merry (11:42):
Yes. It does. It does. Are you listening world? That's
Amy L.Bernstein (11:47):
right. Yeah. And say it listen. Don't worry
about me. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'mokay being vulnerable right now.
This is good for me. Don't worryabout me.
Cathy (11:56):
I love that. I love rejection aspect then? Well,
this is something.
Amy L.Bernstein (12:02):
Yes. I I I've come a long way on this. When I
was, when I pivoted and began toreally sort of write full time,
write creatively full time. I'vealways been a writer. I was a
journalist and lots of otherthings, but creative writing,
you know, fiction, and all theseother things.
I would get all this rejection,and I had this I would feel
(12:26):
terrible. Terrible. Terrible.Terrible. But I had an epiphany
one day about it, and I said tomyself, oh, you are in the
middle of your life, and you'repracticing a new craft and a new
set of skills that you have notmastered, and you're expecting
to step out of here and just bean expert.
Well, that's not how this works.Look how long it took took you
to get good at all the otherthings you've done. So you're
(12:48):
starting out as a novice. Whenyou're new at something and
you're not that good at it yet,of course, are going to reject
your work. If you just haven'tyou just haven't worked through
your craft yet, you need to keepworking on it, and you will get
better, and you will have moresuccess.
And that is exactly whathappens. So rejection feels like
this direct hardwired linebetween the the entity that or
(13:13):
person that is rejecting us andour self self esteem and self
self worth, we think it's ahardwired thing. It is so not
that. When we are beingrejected, there are so many
factors that have nothingwhatsoever to do with our merit
as a person, as a creator, as anartist, as a human being, as
anything. Has nothing to do
Merry (13:34):
with not personal.
Amy L.Bernstein (13:35):
It's not personal. It it it is a business
decision. It has to do with thattheir their their mix of needs.
What do they need right now? Youjust don't happen to fit that
mix.
You may be, coming in withsomething too similar to what
somebody else is doing, andthat's it's there's no slight on
the merit of what you've done.It's just it could be a timing
(13:56):
issue. It could be you know, inthe writing world, publications
are oversubscribed as our agentsall the time. They get thousands
of submissions for tiny windowsof opportunity. You cannot
expect that you are going tothread that needle every time.
You just can't, and thosefactors are not in your control.
And so there are there aremarket conditions that surround
(14:17):
reasons for rejection that havenothing to do with your merit as
a creator, And you have toremember Brilliant. You have to
remember that.
Cathy (14:26):
And and on that note, how how does a writer know the best
way to publish their work?
Amy L.Bernstein (14:33):
Well, writers now have more up to we're we
were you and I, we were alltalking, you know, the at the at
the top or before we we hitrecord about how everybody's got
a book. Right? Well, that'sbecause there are more ways than
ever to publish a book becausethe power to publish is now in
the hands of the individual.This was never true through
history. Right?
Mhmm. The the the ability topublish was a highly controlled
(14:57):
endeavor. You know, you had a aprinting press or a letter press
or an offset press. It was a bigmechanical thing, and people had
to be in a room and run run thepaper and the ink and make the
thing. Right?
Now, of course, with a fewmiraculous presses on a
keyboard, and some cover art,you have a book. So
Merry (15:18):
If you're good at that.
Amy L.Bernstein (15:20):
If you're good at that. Well, there's lots of
people to help you now with thateven if you're not good at that.
There are many, many peoplewilling to help you to do that,
to self publish. So I thinkthat, you know, there's many
ways to publish now. There aremany paths to publishing.
The fundamental thing I'd liketo remind people is that if you
take great joy and pleasure andsatisfaction in writing and you
(15:42):
want to share that work with theworld, then you'll find the path
that is right for you becausethere is a path for everybody.
And, you know, a lot of people,they just wanna write their
their memoirs for their familyand publish that and put in put
in pictures. That's great. It'sI I've seen people take
tremendous dwarf in that. Ihelped a woman.
She just wanted to get her ownbook of poems published, and I
(16:04):
helped her to to go through thatprocess. But, you know, I also
work with authors who haveagents and, you know, intended
to have best selling bestselling books that kinda change
the world. I work with thosepeople too. So it depends on who
you are Mhmm. What yourmotivations are, what your
ambitions are, and kinda whereyou are in your own in your own
life.
Merry (16:23):
Mhmm. Yeah. Do you have any very exciting stories to
tell about people whose booksactually became bestsellers?
Amy L.Bernstein (16:32):
Well, I'm I have I I can't say anything
definitive, but I have a clientright now whose book is with her
second book is with a big fivepublisher. In other words, one
of the really one of the reallybig ones that you've heard of. I
don't know which one, but one ofthe really big ones. And, you
know, we're waiting to seewhether that editor, you know,
is going to take the book. And Iknow that if they do take it,
I'm pretty sure it will be abestseller.
(16:55):
I again, I it's I feel like it'snot my place to say too much
about it because it's toopremature. But, she's really,
really good. This is nonfiction.She's super confident in her
field. She meets she feels agreat need, and I think it's
just got bestseller written allover it.
Mhmm. So I have a couple otherclients in different in
different phases of of gettingready to be published and a
(17:17):
friend who's coming out with hisown book, this week as well. So,
it's very exciting to watchauthors take this journey.
Merry (17:24):
What what do you think are the key trends in publishing
today?
Amy L.Bernstein (17:31):
It's a really, really complex business right
now because there are manydifferent things happening that
seem incredibly contradictory. Icould I don't have the stats at
my fingertips, but I've lookedthem up in the past. You can
find data to tell you thatnobody is reading anymore. Oh.
Intro (17:47):
And then you can find data to tell
Amy L.Bernstein (17:48):
you that there are more books being published
than ever in the history ofmankind. So if nobody's reading
anymore, what are why are allthose books being made? Now a
lot of them are self published.So there there's there are lots
of contradictions. You know, youcan find statistics that will
tell you that teens, teens don'tread.
They they they they they don'tread in school. They don't read
whole books. They just readscreens full. They read on their
(18:10):
phone, and then you'll find outthat the young adult market for
books is booming. So who'sreading those books?
So Mhmm. There's a lot of thereare a lot of weird contradictory
forces going on in publishingright now. Labor is really
expensive. Paper has gottenreally expensive. So the big
publishers are taking fewer andfewer risks, because they only
(18:33):
wanna they only wanna publishreally big bets.
Like, 30 they wanna know thatthey're gonna sell 30,000 copies
of from the get go. So becauseit's so expensive for them that
they're just they're takingfewer risks. So lots and lots of
really, really, really goodbooks are having trouble landing
great publishing deals comparedto maybe years past because it's
(18:56):
the the competition's sointense, the costs are so high,
and the risks are are biggerthan ever fight, as a business.
Merry (19:03):
What about the smaller independent publishers if you
don't go to the big five? Andyou're not doing a hybrid, which
I'd love for you to explain toour audience what that is, how
does that work?
Amy L.Bernstein (19:15):
Yes. I'll explain hybrid, but let me
answer the first part of thequestion. Something really
interesting is going on with thesmaller publishers right now.
When we say smaller publisher,this could be a company that's
run by one or two or threepeople. They may be operating
virtually.
They may use contract freelanceeditors for their books. So
they're not a big entity the waySimon and Schuster with a big
(19:36):
shiny set of offices, you know,in in Midtown Manhattan is.
Right? So this that's the oneway of thinking about what we
mean by small slash independentpublisher. They're gonna be a
much smaller operation.
I know for a fact that agents,top literary agents, are now
shopping some of their theirclients' books, their authors'
(19:58):
books down the food chain, so tospeak, to the smaller publishers
because they can't get dealswith the really big publishers.
So one of my I I have four bookswith four different publishers,
and one of my publishers told menot that long ago that agents
are approaching him withproperties that would have been
placed with, like, you know, aHarper Collins or a Simon and
(20:18):
Schuster back in the day, butthat window is so narrow now
that they're not. So
Cathy (20:25):
Oh, that makes it really hard on the people farther down
the food chain.
Amy L.Bernstein (20:29):
That that's right. And, you know, and even
and even these smaller presses,as you can imagine, they're not
they can't bring out that manybooks a year. They just can't.
So they're only bringing out ahandful of books a year, and
they're still getting hundredsof subs of submissions from
authors. So it's an it's anincredibly competitive cutthroat
cutthroat situation.
And this also gets us back torejection. When your manuscript
(20:51):
is rejected, sure, it's possiblethat the book isn't that strong.
It's possible that you need torewrite it or it needs another
editing pass, but it's alsoincredibly possible you're just
playing in a very, very, very,very crowded marketplace, and
not everything finds its homeright away. It can take years.
Merry (21:11):
Is there a marketplace that isn't as crowded these
days? Because I know that goahead.
Amy L.Bernstein (21:17):
No. I mean, only real well, no. I mean, only
really if you self publishbecause then then you control
everything. You control how tomake the book. You control all
the profits.
You control how to market thebook. So that's you're you are a
one person band doingeverything. So in the sense in
the sense of your opportunity iswide open, I mean, that's how,
(21:38):
that's how Colleen Hoover gotstarted. She she self published
her first couple of books.
Cathy (21:42):
Oh. I didn't know that about her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tremendous success after that.
Amy L.Bernstein (21:48):
Yeah. Right. But then you asked about you
asked about hybrids. I'm sorry.I wanted to answer the question
about
Cathy (21:53):
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Amy L.Bernstein (21:54):
Hybrid. The hybrid has come a very long way.
The the term the you might thinkof it as assisted publishing. So
when we talk about literaryagents, that is a gatekeeping
role. They are gonna comebetween you and a, usually, a
fairly large or reputablepublishing house, and they're
(22:14):
gonna help make decisions aboutwhether your book is ready for
prime time, and they're gonna goshop it for you to the editors
that they know.
So there's a real gatekeepingfunction there. When you go
directly to a publisher, they'regonna offer you a contract a
traditional publisher,publisher, they they will will
offer offer you you a acontract. Contract. They will,
make the whole book for you, andit costs you nothing. They take
(22:35):
all the risk.
When you go to a hybridpublisher, you are going to be
taking on some of the riskbecause you will be paying to
partially subsidize the makingand or marketing of your book,
but you don't have so manygatekeepers. In other words,
they'll take it in. They may ormay not do some editing for you
(22:55):
and basically get cover art foryou and help you to make the
book. They do this in differentways with different degrees of
control and different lengths oftime, but it is it is a lower
gatekeeper approach where youtake on some of the risk. You
it'll it can cost anywhere from8 to 10 to $15,000 for the
(23:16):
author to go that route.
But then you have a partner as apublisher who will collaborate
with you on covers and on and onmarketing, and you will earn a
higher royalty rate than youwould in a traditional deal
where you did not invest
Cathy (23:32):
in your success.
Merry (23:33):
Is Sure. Do they do they market your book more than, say,
a big five?
Amy L.Bernstein (23:40):
No. No. Absolutely not. The the the
small presses and the hybridpresses do a combination of
things. The hybrid presses mayoffer you marketing packages
that you can pay for separatelyfor additional marketing
assistance, social mediacampaigns, what they call what
they call virtual book tours,things of this nature, trying to
(24:01):
get you on podcasts, forexample.
You can pay to play for that. Intraditional publishers, the
author has to carry a lot of theburden of doing the marketing.
Some publishers will stillsubmit for, awards and things on
your behalf. Some will split thecost with you, but the authors
have to assume a lot of themarketing responsibilities
almost across the board.
Cathy (24:22):
That's tough because, you know, you you have your writer
hat on and you're writing, andnow you have to become this
business entrepreneur, whichsome writers wouldn't be good
at.
Amy L.Bernstein (24:33):
Lot of writers hate it, hate it, hate it. They
don't want to do it. It's notwhat they feel good at, and so
there's a tremendous amount ofangst in the writer community,
believe me, because I have theseconversations all the time.
Tremendous angst among writersabout how do I market my book?
How do I know I'm doing itright?
Am I doing the right things? Andthey try and do everything which
(24:56):
you don't need to do. And
Merry (24:58):
then they can't write.
Amy L.Bernstein (25:00):
Well, they can't write, but but what the
right what authors especiallynewer authors, what they really
lose sight of is that at the endof the day, you can't you can't
force a reader to materialize.You can't you can't just because
you put something on socialmedia, it doesn't equate to an
automatic reader or a buyer foryour book. This this notion
(25:22):
about the TikTok influencers andbook talk, I mean, half of that
is mythology. Are there winnersthrough that? Of course, there
are, but it's it's a unicornkind of situation.
It's not that not that many inthe universe of people who
write. So you can't expect thatall this marketing that you do
translates into sales. Itdoesn't. Nothing translates into
(25:43):
sales. You can't you can'tcontrol it.
You know? You can't
Cathy (25:47):
control it. Oh, wow. Well, let's talk about your book
for a minute.
Merry (25:50):
Yeah. Let's talk about your book. Wrangling
Cathy (25:52):
the doubt monster.
Amy L.Bernstein (25:54):
Yep.
Cathy (25:55):
Was shortlisted for the Eric Hoffer Award grand prize
and won first place in Book Festtwenty twenty five in the
inspiration and self helpcategory. Yep. Bravo. We wanna
congratulate you on that. Howdid that make you feel?
Amy L.Bernstein (26:10):
Well, case in point, I felt great. Did it did
it did it end up selling morebooks? I don't think so. But you
know what? It's validation is agreat thing, and you need to
take it where you can where youcan.
And, basically, what it says toyou is that your message
resonated, what you saidcommunicated itself to other
people, what you intended,worked, it came across. That's
(26:35):
the that's the satisfaction.That's the real satisfaction.
Because to me, at the end of theday, it's always about
communication.
Merry (26:41):
Yeah. And and and knowing that somewhere with someone,
even if it's one person, you'vemade a difference.
Amy L.Bernstein (26:50):
Exactly. That you make a difference. And I
know this book has absolutelymade a difference for for
people. Yes.
Cathy (26:55):
Well, know on your website, you have a phenomenal
doubt quiz that you offer. Maybemention about that too.
Amy L.Bernstein (27:03):
Oh, yes. The doubt decoder quiz. I don't know
whether you can you can postthis in some some notes with the
show, but we created
Cathy (27:09):
We can.
Amy L.Bernstein (27:10):
My publisher and I created this wonderful
quiz that basically helps you tosee how doubt affects every
aspect of your life fromfriendships to finances to time
management. It asks all thesequestions about the way doubt is
operating in your life, and areyou a high doubter or a low
doubter or a medium doubter? Andyou you'll get a you'll get a
(27:33):
you'll you'll get, you know,results from the quiz. And what
we're finding from justpreliminary results from, like,
several dozen is that timemanagement is one of the
biggest, areas of doubt forpeople. They just feel like
they're really not good at howthey manage their time.
They have doubts that they'redoing it well. So why we're
waiting to see whether as we getmore data, whether that finding
(27:56):
is going to hold up, or whetherthere will be there will be a
shift. And not surprisingly,there are a couple questions
that lean a little bit towardthe political, not too much, but
about, you know, do you havedoubts about the country or
whatever? Yes. People do.
Do you think the news istrustworthy? People are
doubtful, things of that nature.Yeah. Mhmm. It's really
interesting.
So I do encourage people to takethe quiz. It's about ten
(28:18):
minutes, ten, twelve minutes.
Merry (28:20):
Well, in order to write that book, you must have had
some doubts yourself.
Amy L.Bernstein (28:26):
You bet. This book came out of, you know, I'm
a lifelong doubter. And as I'vegotten older, I've gotten better
at seeing how it's operated inmy life and really held me back.
Jobs I didn't go for, graduatedegrees I didn't pursue because
I thought I have no businesseven trying to do that. I have
(28:48):
doubted myself my whole life,and I realized what a powerful
way what a powerful force it isin shaping decisions, in in
having you close doors beforeyou even, you know, know what's
behind them, and it it reallycould do that to you.
And I think I just reached thatpoint in my own life where I
(29:08):
said and, again, this is part ofthat big midlife pivot. And I
said, I'm not going to do thatanymore. I'm just gonna go for
it, and I know I'll still havedoubts. But the difference is I
won't let the doubts stop me.And so what I say in relation to
that is failure and success walkthrough the same door.
(29:31):
And if you don't hold the dooropen to failure, you cannot also
hold the door open to success.
Merry (29:38):
Oh, that's powerful.
Cathy (29:41):
Learned. Yeah. I like it.
Merry (29:43):
I like it a lot. And and in a way, is that advice you'd
give to a a writer just startingout?
Amy L.Bernstein (29:49):
To a writer starting out, my advice is
always write and write andwrite. Study your craft. Find
really trusted people whounderstand writing to give you
valuable feedback that's notyour friend. It's not your
sister unless they'reprofessionals. You and so you
need to find a writing communitythat understands what you're
(30:11):
doing, that can help you torefine and improve your craft.
And don't worry about publishingso much in the beginning. Worry
about becoming the best writerthat you can and being
passionate about this yourstorytelling. That's where you
need to start.
Cathy (30:25):
Yeah. Right. So
Merry (30:28):
you also operate as a book coach and a writer. So talk
about what a book coach is, andwho needs one?
Amy L.Bernstein (30:37):
A book coach can be a couple of different
things. A book coach can bewriting is a deeply, deeply
lonely and doubt filled kind ofbusiness. Right? And it's really
hard to know what you're doing,if you're doing it right, if
you're doing the right thing, ifyou're working too slowly, if
you're making wrong turns, ifyour material's any good. It's
very hard to know this whenyou're writing on your own.
(31:00):
A book coach can function as anaccountability partner to help a
writer continue to make progresson a difficult project. A book
coach can also help with thenitty gritty of helping a writer
figure out how to structure astory, whether it's a novel or a
non fiction book, whether that'san expose or a memoir or
(31:21):
history, whatever it might be,to help them to find the right
structure for that book so thatthey're gonna tell the story in
a way that really connectspowerfully with readers. One of
the challenges that I see andother book coaches see over and
over and over is people whomight have a pretty good
facility with a sentence, theybut they have no there's no
(31:44):
structure to what they'vewritten. So you get fifty,
sixty, 70,000 words, and it'snot going anywhere. There's no
big there's no sense ofmomentum.
There's no sense of it building.There's no sense of what's the
point? What why are you tellingme this now? So that's
structure. So a book coach helpsa great deal with using specific
tools and working closely with awriter.
(32:07):
A book coach is also very muchthat champion. You know, when
the going gets tough, it's like,you can do this. I'm gonna help
you through this. I'm gonna talkyou off the edge of the cliff
because you're feeling burnedout, and we're gonna keep going.
I work with clients, oh, easily,a year, eighteen months, two
years at a stretch.
If they're starting from a roughidea for a book and we have to
(32:29):
get all the way through to areally sharp compelling book
proposal that you could take toan agent, that takes a long
time. So if you're doing thatwith a book coach, you've got
somebody to guide you all theway through. If you're doing it
on your own, you often get lost.So the question is to who needs
a book coach, it's a writerwho's really serious about
(32:49):
writing a book that's gonna havesome commercial viability, and
they wanna write the best bookthat they can.
Cathy (32:55):
So if it's such a long ongoing process, how do you
structure your fees?
Amy L.Bernstein (33:00):
I structure my fees in phases. So I have a
contract with a client, andwe'll have a four to six month
contract where we agree to covercertain things. It might be a
one, two, or three phasecontract just depending. And
when we get and if when we getthere and you can't know exactly
when, but I've gotten prettygood at estimating. When you get
there, then often, if we need tokeep going, we'll just have a
(33:24):
new contract and kind of renewour vows, so to speak.
We'll figure out we'll figureout, okay, what are we where
where are we now in thisprocess, and what's what are our
goals for this next phase?Because you can't you can't see
foresee it all at once.
Cathy (33:38):
No. Of course, you can't. And in addition to that book
coach hat that you wear, Amy,tell everyone what services you
offer and tell us what you'dlike our listeners to have as a
takeaway today.
Amy L.Bernstein (33:53):
So as a book coach, I do work with people on
serious nonfiction books, and Iwill very selectively work with
memoir if there's a sort ofactivist component to it,
meaning that the memoirist isalso someone who's active out in
the world and there's a kind ofa social component to the book
or historical component. So,they can visit my book coaching
(34:17):
website, wordfirstbookcoach.com,and I'm sure you can put that
put that in writing. And Okay. II really wish I wish for every
creative person, whether they'rea writer or in some other field,
I wish for every creative personto give themselves the
permission to be be vulnerable,to break new ground, and make
(34:39):
progress in this thing that youwant to do or that you want to
become. It is never too late totry, and it is never too late to
start something new.
And risk is a joyful thingbecause it helps us see
ourselves in a new light. Andthat's that's really a gift if
we've been on the planet for acouple of years, to be able to
sort of reimagine ourselves. SoI say go for it.
Cathy (35:01):
I love that. Thank you.
Merry (35:03):
Yeah. Thank you so much. That's very, very inspiring. I
mean, when you think grandmaMoses did her painting at 80,
and now eighty's young. Right?
Cathy (35:13):
Yes. And seeming like it's younger all the time.
Amy L.Bernstein (35:18):
Every year. Absolutely. Yeah.
Merry (35:21):
Yeah. I have a neighbor who just turned 100, and she's
walking around, and and shereceived a plaque from the city
of Los Angeles where Kathy and Ilive that she's one of the cent
what is it? Centigenerian?
Amy L.Bernstein (35:36):
Centigenerian. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm about
to become a grandmother for thefirst time, and so that's that's
a milestone in in my Granny.
Merry (35:44):
Oh, absolutely. Going forward. Congratulations.
Amy L.Bernstein (35:47):
Thank you.
Cathy (35:48):
Thank you. For sure.
Merry (35:50):
Thank you, Amy. Our guest today on our late boomers
podcast has been writer and bookcoach Amy L. Bernstein. Her
website is amywrites.live. And,also, would you tell again what
your other book other site is sothat people can come to
Amy L.Bernstein (36:09):
you for
Intro (36:10):
They can find the book coach they
Amy L.Bernstein (36:11):
can learn all about all about my books on the
website you mentioned. They canfind a link to the book coaching
from the website you mentioned,but the book coaching website is
wordwordfirstbookcoach.com.
Merry (36:23):
Wordfirstbookcoach.com. And you can see what Amy offers
and take her doubt quiz as well.So thank you again, Amy. It's
been a joy.
Amy L.Bernstein (36:35):
Thank you, Mary and Kathy.
Cathy (36:37):
You're welcome. We at the Late Boomers Podcast wanna
invite you to please subscribeto our YouTube channel even if
you are listening on the otherplatforms. We're thanking you in
advance. Please, you can find uson Instagram and Facebook also.
Next week, we will have as ourguest, Susan Normandy Eisenberg,
(36:59):
who writes about vocal andperforming arts.
Thanks for listening today, andthanks again to our guest, Amy
Bernstein.
Thank you for joining us on late boomers, the podcast
(37:21):
that is your guide to creating athird act with style, power, and
impact. Please visit our websiteand get in touch with us at
lateboomers.us. If you wouldlike to listen to or download
other episodes of late boomers,go to ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry (37:41):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcast, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use of the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.
This is the EWN Podcast Network.
Cathy (00:14):
Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide to creating
your third act with style,power, and impact. Hi. I'm Cathy
Worthington.
Merry (00:24):
And I'm Merry Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations with successfulentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.
Cathy (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you along for the
ride on each interview,recounting the journey our
guests have taken to get wherethey are, inspiring you to
create your own path to success.Let's get started.
I'm Cathy Worthington. Hello, and welcome to late
(00:54):
boomers, the podcast where weexplore the adventures, choices,
and challenges of life after 50.
Merry (01:01):
And I'm Merry Elkins. We know that as baby boomers, we've
made a lot of big decisions inour lives, careers, family,
lifestyle, and now we're makingchoices that shape this exciting
new chapter of our lives.
Cathy (01:15):
But let's be honest, sometimes those choices come
with a little voice of doubt.Should I try something new? Am I
too old to start over?
Merry (01:24):
So today, we wanna remind you doubt is normal. It just
means you're stretching, you'regrowing, and pushing beyond your
comfort zone. The trick is notto let doubt stop you from
moving forward.
Cathy (01:37):
And that's why we're so excited about our guest today,
Amy L. Bernstein, who literallywrote the book on this topic,
Wrangling the Doubt Monster.
Merry (01:47):
Amy's a writer, a coach, and creativity advocate who
helps people navigate the veryfears that hold them back. Her
book is all about identifyingdoubt, managing it, and turning
it into a tool for growthinstead of a roadblock.
Cathy (02:03):
So let's dive in and learn how to wrestle that
monster and win. Amy, welcome toLate Boomers.
Amy L.Bernstein (02:10):
Thank you so much, Cathy and Merry. I'm
really glad to be here with you.
Merry (02:13):
And so great to have you. Tell us how we stop doubting
ourselves so much.
Amy L.Bernstein (02:19):
Well, I think if we stop doubting, then we're
not really human. I do thinkthat I do think that doubt is a
normal part of our psychologicalmakeup. It's, fine to doubt.
Doubt can even work sometimes inour favor. If you think about,
for example, a surgeon whopauses before making an
(02:40):
incision, you know, that surgeonmay having that moment of
productive doubt, which is, isthis the right am I do I have
the right tool?
Is it the right limb? And sodoubt can be a force for good,
but I often say, you know, itcould be a friend or a foe. So
my my my belief is that we canlearn to manage our doubts and
(03:01):
we can learn to walk with ourdoubts, but we'll never entirely
banish doubt nor should we.
Merry (03:07):
So you make a friend of doubt?
Amy L.Bernstein (03:11):
I think sometimes it can be a friend and
but very often, particularlypeople who are real in really
creative endeavors, whetherthat's entrepreneurs or or
writers or or people of, youknow, doing anything creative,
it may not feel like yourfriend. It may be that voice
that's sort of telling you overand over and over, oh, you know,
(03:32):
what made you think you could dothis? You're probably not good
enough. It probably isn't goingto work. You're going to fail.
You're going to be embarrassed.You know, everything's going to
go wrong. Those thoughts aresuch a normal part of taking
risks. Right? And but we don'tgrow.
As you said at the outset, Mary,we really don't grow without
(03:53):
taking those risks. And so partof what we need to do is let the
sort of scary aspects of selfdoubt, which feels like this
giant set of brakes sort ofmaking us come to a screeching
halt, We need to let thosebreaks operate, and yet we don't
sort of stop going forwardcompletely. So we live with the
(04:14):
scary aspect of that, but youkeep going forward. It really is
a pretty significant mindsetchange from calling a halt to
going forward with doubt asopposed to letting it stop you.
Cathy (04:27):
Great. Yeah. I love that. Love it. Well, how can people
bring more creative joy intotheir lives, especially at
midlife and beyond?
Amy L.Bernstein (04:41):
Yes. You know, this is something like you, I
mean, I have lived this and and,really learned so much about
doing this. I had a high payingstressful job for a number of
years. And while I was doingwell at it, I was not feeling
like my full self. I wasn'treaching my full potential.
(05:01):
I wasn't being who I thought Ineeded to be. But in order to
become who I really needed tobe, I was going to have to make
a lot of changes. I was going tohave to find different kinds of
work that didn't take up so muchtime, and I was going to have to
open myself up to being sovulnerable to doing trying new
things, particularly in a fieldlike writing. So I think, you
(05:23):
know, we have that day inmidlife where I think we wake up
and we like the Peggy Lee song,we say, is this all there is?
You know?
Like, the song is guess is thatall there is? If that's all
there is, my friend. You know?So I think and so we we, you
know, we've I I did what I callthe big pivot, and many people
in midlife do this big pivot orthey approach it, and I I really
(05:46):
have to advocate for it. It's soscary, and it means beginning to
make small changes in your lifethat add up to bigger changes so
that you can open yourself up tobecoming the person you still
want to be and you don't feelfeel that you are.
It's about making
Cathy (06:05):
become space sources of joy then. Yes.
Amy L.Bernstein (06:09):
Oh, absolutely. It's scary. It's incremental.
You know, people often thinkthat if if they're discontent
and they wanna be living adifferent life, they think,
well, I can't do that because Ihave to base basically just blow
up my life, and I'm not going todo that. You don't have to blow
up your life.
You know, you can you can lookfor ways to continue to earn a
(06:31):
salary maybe in a job that wherethe commute is shorter, so you
take back time. I did that.Where the responsibility is a
little bit less so that it's notweighing on you twenty four
seven. I did that. And in doingmoves like that over a period of
time, I began to open up morespace in my life for taking a
(06:52):
course in playwriting, formeeting other writers, for
getting to understand howtheater works, for starting a
novel.
So I made space for these thingsthat I didn't have room for, but
I really did do it gradually,and I changed that balance over
time. I want everybody whoapproaches this pivot point when
you wake up and you say, youknow, is that all there is? Know
(07:15):
that you have the ability tomake these incremental changes
that will add up to the bigchange that will really
transform you. It just doesn'thave to be all at once. It
doesn't have to be that scary.
Merry (07:26):
Oh, that resonates. I have two questions. Do you have
that sounds like a great way, areal strategy to manage self
doubt. Do you have otherstrategies that you can actually
list for us? And also
Amy L.Bernstein (07:42):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Merry (07:43):
Also, on the second question, kind of well, it it
ties in. It's all about handlingrejection. So two questions.
Amy L.Bernstein (07:54):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about
some strategies for how to sortof manage doubt. And, again,
this is all in our heads.
Right? So that we're alwaystalking here about mindset,
about making deliberatepsychological shifts in the way
we think. So one of the thingsthat I talk about is how we
learn to change the channel inour heads as if we had multiple
(08:15):
radio dials in our heads. And itso happens, and this is
particularly true for women,that dial is set to the self
critic station. Right?
I did this wrong. I wish I haddone this differently. I
probably shouldn't do x. Right?It's there.
And so it's just we live there.Right? And that's in our heads.
What we need to do is giveourselves permission to tweak
(08:39):
that dial because what you'rethe station you're not playing
is all the your own greatesthits, all the amazing things you
have already done, the successesyou've already have, the the the
the ways that you've exceededyour expectations, you know,
throughout your life in so manydifferent ways, large and small.
(08:59):
So you need we need to changethe channel and play that
station because, you know, thedoubts the doubts are not, as I
said at the outset, it's notthat they're going to evaporate.
I don't think that's realistic.But we have to do a reset here
on the balance so that it's notjust the negativity. Now there's
something very related to that.It's one thing if you change the
(09:21):
channel in your own head, so tospeak, or at least you play that
nice channel a little moreoften. Right?
But it's really important tosurround yourself with allies
that could be people or it canbe institutions that are going
to support the changes you wantto make, the journey that you
want to take, the pivot that youfeel called to do. You wanna
(09:45):
surround yourself with peopleand institutions that will say,
go for it. This is great. You'reon the right track. We support
you.
It may feel weird and crazy andstrange, and you feel like
you're stepping off into thinair. That's okay. We're here to
be with you and to catch you.
Cathy (10:00):
That's so true, Amy, because so many times
Amy L.Bernstein (10:03):
Yes.
Cathy (10:03):
Family and friends can pull people down.
Amy L.Bernstein (10:06):
That's absurd. Them. That's right. So our our
adversaries can be peopleparadoxically who love us. They
can it can be a partner, aspouse, a sibling, a best
friend, and they will pull usdown because they don't
understand our intentions forourselves.
They don't see or share ourvision, and people are afraid to
(10:30):
watch other people make change.It's scary. It's scary to watch.
And they're they're so afraidyou're going to fail and be
hurt. They don't want that foryou.
And so I this I give this littlebit of advice. When you're
surrounded by adversaries, youneed to distance yourself from
them politely. If these arepeople who are close to you in
your life, that doesn't mean youstop talking to them. But what
(10:51):
you do is you say to them, youknow, I can see that my desire
to do x is making youuncomfortable, and maybe you
don't fully understand it.That's okay.
This is something that means alot to me, and I'm going to do
it. And if you'd rather not talkabout it anymore, that's fine
too. We don't have to talk aboutSo you give them permission to
pull away from that piece ofyou, and you give yourself
(11:14):
permission to go forward withouthaving to have that adversarial
conversation every time you seethis person.
Cathy (11:20):
Yeah. That would be such a
Amy L.Bernstein (11:21):
relief you. Thanksgiving and go to
Thanksgiving and tell your wholefamily, Yes. I'm yes. I'm
writing a book. No.
It's not finished. No. I don'tknow when it'll be finished, but
I absolutely love the joy ofwriting. I'm on an incredible
journey of exploration, learningso much about myself, and now we
don't have to talk about itanymore. Then it's Woo hoo.
Cathy (11:40):
It it does everyone. Right?
Merry (11:42):
Yes. It does. It does. Are you listening world? That's
Amy L.Bernstein (11:47):
right. Yeah. And say it listen. Don't worry
about me. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'mokay being vulnerable right now.
This is good for me. Don't worryabout me.
Cathy (11:56):
I love that. I love rejection aspect then? Well,
this is something.
Amy L.Bernstein (12:02):
Yes. I I I've come a long way on this. When I
was, when I pivoted and began toreally sort of write full time,
write creatively full time. I'vealways been a writer. I was a
journalist and lots of otherthings, but creative writing,
you know, fiction, and all theseother things.
I would get all this rejection,and I had this I would feel
(12:26):
terrible. Terrible. Terrible.Terrible. But I had an epiphany
one day about it, and I said tomyself, oh, you are in the
middle of your life, and you'repracticing a new craft and a new
set of skills that you have notmastered, and you're expecting
to step out of here and just bean expert.
Well, that's not how this works.Look how long it took took you
to get good at all the otherthings you've done. So you're
(12:48):
starting out as a novice. Whenyou're new at something and
you're not that good at it yet,of course, are going to reject
your work. If you just haven'tyou just haven't worked through
your craft yet, you need to keepworking on it, and you will get
better, and you will have moresuccess.
And that is exactly whathappens. So rejection feels like
this direct hardwired linebetween the the entity that or
(13:13):
person that is rejecting us andour self self esteem and self
self worth, we think it's ahardwired thing. It is so not
that. When we are beingrejected, there are so many
factors that have nothingwhatsoever to do with our merit
as a person, as a creator, as anartist, as a human being, as
anything. Has nothing to do
Merry (13:34):
with not personal.
Amy L.Bernstein (13:35):
It's not personal. It it it is a business
decision. It has to do with thattheir their their mix of needs.
What do they need right now? Youjust don't happen to fit that
mix.
You may be, coming in withsomething too similar to what
somebody else is doing, andthat's it's there's no slight on
the merit of what you've done.It's just it could be a timing
(13:56):
issue. It could be you know, inthe writing world, publications
are oversubscribed as our agentsall the time. They get thousands
of submissions for tiny windowsof opportunity. You cannot
expect that you are going tothread that needle every time.
You just can't, and thosefactors are not in your control.
And so there are there aremarket conditions that surround
(14:17):
reasons for rejection that havenothing to do with your merit as
a creator, And you have toremember Brilliant. You have to
remember that.
Cathy (14:26):
And and on that note, how how does a writer know the best
way to publish their work?
Amy L.Bernstein (14:33):
Well, writers now have more up to we're we
were you and I, we were alltalking, you know, the at the at
the top or before we we hitrecord about how everybody's got
a book. Right? Well, that'sbecause there are more ways than
ever to publish a book becausethe power to publish is now in
the hands of the individual.This was never true through
history. Right?
Mhmm. The the the ability topublish was a highly controlled
(14:57):
endeavor. You know, you had a aprinting press or a letter press
or an offset press. It was a bigmechanical thing, and people had
to be in a room and run run thepaper and the ink and make the
thing. Right?
Now, of course, with a fewmiraculous presses on a
keyboard, and some cover art,you have a book. So
Merry (15:18):
If you're good at that.
Amy L.Bernstein (15:20):
If you're good at that. Well, there's lots of
people to help you now with thateven if you're not good at that.
There are many, many peoplewilling to help you to do that,
to self publish. So I thinkthat, you know, there's many
ways to publish now. There aremany paths to publishing.
The fundamental thing I'd liketo remind people is that if you
take great joy and pleasure andsatisfaction in writing and you
(15:42):
want to share that work with theworld, then you'll find the path
that is right for you becausethere is a path for everybody.
And, you know, a lot of people,they just wanna write their
their memoirs for their familyand publish that and put in put
in pictures. That's great. It'sI I've seen people take
tremendous dwarf in that. Ihelped a woman.
She just wanted to get her ownbook of poems published, and I
(16:04):
helped her to to go through thatprocess. But, you know, I also
work with authors who haveagents and, you know, intended
to have best selling bestselling books that kinda change
the world. I work with thosepeople too. So it depends on who
you are Mhmm. What yourmotivations are, what your
ambitions are, and kinda whereyou are in your own in your own
life.
Merry (16:23):
Mhmm. Yeah. Do you have any very exciting stories to
tell about people whose booksactually became bestsellers?
Amy L.Bernstein (16:32):
Well, I'm I have I I can't say anything
definitive, but I have a clientright now whose book is with her
second book is with a big fivepublisher. In other words, one
of the really one of the reallybig ones that you've heard of. I
don't know which one, but one ofthe really big ones. And, you
know, we're waiting to seewhether that editor, you know,
is going to take the book. And Iknow that if they do take it,
I'm pretty sure it will be abestseller.
(16:55):
I again, I it's I feel like it'snot my place to say too much
about it because it's toopremature. But, she's really,
really good. This is nonfiction.She's super confident in her
field. She meets she feels agreat need, and I think it's
just got bestseller written allover it.
Mhmm. So I have a couple otherclients in different in
different phases of of gettingready to be published and a
(17:17):
friend who's coming out with hisown book, this week as well. So,
it's very exciting to watchauthors take this journey.
Merry (17:24):
What what do you think are the key trends in publishing
today?
Amy L.Bernstein (17:31):
It's a really, really complex business right
now because there are manydifferent things happening that
seem incredibly contradictory. Icould I don't have the stats at
my fingertips, but I've lookedthem up in the past. You can
find data to tell you thatnobody is reading anymore. Oh.
Intro (17:47):
And then you can find data to tell
Amy L.Bernstein (17:48):
you that there are more books being published
than ever in the history ofmankind. So if nobody's reading
anymore, what are why are allthose books being made? Now a
lot of them are self published.So there there's there are lots
of contradictions. You know, youcan find statistics that will
tell you that teens, teens don'tread.
They they they they they don'tread in school. They don't read
whole books. They just readscreens full. They read on their
(18:10):
phone, and then you'll find outthat the young adult market for
books is booming. So who'sreading those books?
So Mhmm. There's a lot of thereare a lot of weird contradictory
forces going on in publishingright now. Labor is really
expensive. Paper has gottenreally expensive. So the big
publishers are taking fewer andfewer risks, because they only
(18:33):
wanna they only wanna publishreally big bets.
Like, 30 they wanna know thatthey're gonna sell 30,000 copies
of from the get go. So becauseit's so expensive for them that
they're just they're takingfewer risks. So lots and lots of
really, really, really goodbooks are having trouble landing
great publishing deals comparedto maybe years past because it's
(18:56):
the the competition's sointense, the costs are so high,
and the risks are are biggerthan ever fight, as a business.
Merry (19:03):
What about the smaller independent publishers if you
don't go to the big five? Andyou're not doing a hybrid, which
I'd love for you to explain toour audience what that is, how
does that work?
Amy L.Bernstein (19:15):
Yes. I'll explain hybrid, but let me
answer the first part of thequestion. Something really
interesting is going on with thesmaller publishers right now.
When we say smaller publisher,this could be a company that's
run by one or two or threepeople. They may be operating
virtually.
They may use contract freelanceeditors for their books. So
they're not a big entity the waySimon and Schuster with a big
(19:36):
shiny set of offices, you know,in in Midtown Manhattan is.
Right? So this that's the oneway of thinking about what we
mean by small slash independentpublisher. They're gonna be a
much smaller operation.
I know for a fact that agents,top literary agents, are now
shopping some of their theirclients' books, their authors'
(19:58):
books down the food chain, so tospeak, to the smaller publishers
because they can't get dealswith the really big publishers.
So one of my I I have four bookswith four different publishers,
and one of my publishers told menot that long ago that agents
are approaching him withproperties that would have been
placed with, like, you know, aHarper Collins or a Simon and
(20:18):
Schuster back in the day, butthat window is so narrow now
that they're not. So
Cathy (20:25):
Oh, that makes it really hard on the people farther down
the food chain.
Amy L.Bernstein (20:29):
That that's right. And, you know, and even
and even these smaller presses,as you can imagine, they're not
they can't bring out that manybooks a year. They just can't.
So they're only bringing out ahandful of books a year, and
they're still getting hundredsof subs of submissions from
authors. So it's an it's anincredibly competitive cutthroat
cutthroat situation.
And this also gets us back torejection. When your manuscript
(20:51):
is rejected, sure, it's possiblethat the book isn't that strong.
It's possible that you need torewrite it or it needs another
editing pass, but it's alsoincredibly possible you're just
playing in a very, very, very,very crowded marketplace, and
not everything finds its homeright away. It can take years.
Merry (21:11):
Is there a marketplace that isn't as crowded these
days? Because I know that goahead.
Amy L.Bernstein (21:17):
No. I mean, only real well, no. I mean, only
really if you self publishbecause then then you control
everything. You control how tomake the book. You control all
the profits.
You control how to market thebook. So that's you're you are a
one person band doingeverything. So in the sense in
the sense of your opportunity iswide open, I mean, that's how,
(21:38):
that's how Colleen Hoover gotstarted. She she self published
her first couple of books.
Cathy (21:42):
Oh. I didn't know that about her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tremendous success after that.
Amy L.Bernstein (21:48):
Yeah. Right. But then you asked about you
asked about hybrids. I'm sorry.I wanted to answer the question
about
Cathy (21:53):
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Amy L.Bernstein (21:54):
Hybrid. The hybrid has come a very long way.
The the term the you might thinkof it as assisted publishing. So
when we talk about literaryagents, that is a gatekeeping
role. They are gonna comebetween you and a, usually, a
fairly large or reputablepublishing house, and they're
(22:14):
gonna help make decisions aboutwhether your book is ready for
prime time, and they're gonna goshop it for you to the editors
that they know.
So there's a real gatekeepingfunction there. When you go
directly to a publisher, they'regonna offer you a contract a
traditional publisher,publisher, they they will will
offer offer you you a acontract. Contract. They will,
make the whole book for you, andit costs you nothing. They take
(22:35):
all the risk.
When you go to a hybridpublisher, you are going to be
taking on some of the riskbecause you will be paying to
partially subsidize the makingand or marketing of your book,
but you don't have so manygatekeepers. In other words,
they'll take it in. They may ormay not do some editing for you
(22:55):
and basically get cover art foryou and help you to make the
book. They do this in differentways with different degrees of
control and different lengths oftime, but it is it is a lower
gatekeeper approach where youtake on some of the risk. You
it'll it can cost anywhere from8 to 10 to $15,000 for the
(23:16):
author to go that route.
But then you have a partner as apublisher who will collaborate
with you on covers and on and onmarketing, and you will earn a
higher royalty rate than youwould in a traditional deal
where you did not invest
Cathy (23:32):
in your success.
Merry (23:33):
Is Sure. Do they do they market your book more than, say,
a big five?
Amy L.Bernstein (23:40):
No. No. Absolutely not. The the the
small presses and the hybridpresses do a combination of
things. The hybrid presses mayoffer you marketing packages
that you can pay for separatelyfor additional marketing
assistance, social mediacampaigns, what they call what
they call virtual book tours,things of this nature, trying to
(24:01):
get you on podcasts, forexample.
You can pay to play for that. Intraditional publishers, the
author has to carry a lot of theburden of doing the marketing.
Some publishers will stillsubmit for, awards and things on
your behalf. Some will split thecost with you, but the authors
have to assume a lot of themarketing responsibilities
almost across the board.
Cathy (24:22):
That's tough because, you know, you you have your writer
hat on and you're writing, andnow you have to become this
business entrepreneur, whichsome writers wouldn't be good
at.
Amy L.Bernstein (24:33):
Lot of writers hate it, hate it, hate it. They
don't want to do it. It's notwhat they feel good at, and so
there's a tremendous amount ofangst in the writer community,
believe me, because I have theseconversations all the time.
Tremendous angst among writersabout how do I market my book?
How do I know I'm doing itright?
Am I doing the right things? Andthey try and do everything which
(24:56):
you don't need to do. And
Merry (24:58):
then they can't write.
Amy L.Bernstein (25:00):
Well, they can't write, but but what the
right what authors especiallynewer authors, what they really
lose sight of is that at the endof the day, you can't you can't
force a reader to materialize.You can't you can't just because
you put something on socialmedia, it doesn't equate to an
automatic reader or a buyer foryour book. This this notion
(25:22):
about the TikTok influencers andbook talk, I mean, half of that
is mythology. Are there winnersthrough that? Of course, there
are, but it's it's a unicornkind of situation.
It's not that not that many inthe universe of people who
write. So you can't expect thatall this marketing that you do
translates into sales. Itdoesn't. Nothing translates into
(25:43):
sales. You can't you can'tcontrol it.
You know? You can't
Cathy (25:47):
control it. Oh, wow. Well, let's talk about your book
for a minute.
Merry (25:50):
Yeah. Let's talk about your book. Wrangling
Cathy (25:52):
the doubt monster.
Amy L.Bernstein (25:54):
Yep.
Cathy (25:55):
Was shortlisted for the Eric Hoffer Award grand prize
and won first place in Book Festtwenty twenty five in the
inspiration and self helpcategory. Yep. Bravo. We wanna
congratulate you on that. Howdid that make you feel?
Amy L.Bernstein (26:10):
Well, case in point, I felt great. Did it did
it did it end up selling morebooks? I don't think so. But you
know what? It's validation is agreat thing, and you need to
take it where you can where youcan.
And, basically, what it says toyou is that your message
resonated, what you saidcommunicated itself to other
people, what you intended,worked, it came across. That's
(26:35):
the that's the satisfaction.That's the real satisfaction.
Because to me, at the end of theday, it's always about
communication.
Merry (26:41):
Yeah. And and and knowing that somewhere with someone,
even if it's one person, you'vemade a difference.
Amy L.Bernstein (26:50):
Exactly. That you make a difference. And I
know this book has absolutelymade a difference for for
people. Yes.
Cathy (26:55):
Well, know on your website, you have a phenomenal
doubt quiz that you offer. Maybemention about that too.
Amy L.Bernstein (27:03):
Oh, yes. The doubt decoder quiz. I don't know
whether you can you can postthis in some some notes with the
show, but we created
Cathy (27:09):
We can.
Amy L.Bernstein (27:10):
My publisher and I created this wonderful
quiz that basically helps you tosee how doubt affects every
aspect of your life fromfriendships to finances to time
management. It asks all thesequestions about the way doubt is
operating in your life, and areyou a high doubter or a low
doubter or a medium doubter? Andyou you'll get a you'll get a
(27:33):
you'll you'll get, you know,results from the quiz. And what
we're finding from justpreliminary results from, like,
several dozen is that timemanagement is one of the
biggest, areas of doubt forpeople. They just feel like
they're really not good at howthey manage their time.
They have doubts that they'redoing it well. So why we're
waiting to see whether as we getmore data, whether that finding
(27:56):
is going to hold up, or whetherthere will be there will be a
shift. And not surprisingly,there are a couple questions
that lean a little bit towardthe political, not too much, but
about, you know, do you havedoubts about the country or
whatever? Yes. People do.
Do you think the news istrustworthy? People are
doubtful, things of that nature.Yeah. Mhmm. It's really
interesting.
So I do encourage people to takethe quiz. It's about ten
(28:18):
minutes, ten, twelve minutes.
Merry (28:20):
Well, in order to write that book, you must have had
some doubts yourself.
Amy L.Bernstein (28:26):
You bet. This book came out of, you know, I'm
a lifelong doubter. And as I'vegotten older, I've gotten better
at seeing how it's operated inmy life and really held me back.
Jobs I didn't go for, graduatedegrees I didn't pursue because
I thought I have no businesseven trying to do that. I have
(28:48):
doubted myself my whole life,and I realized what a powerful
way what a powerful force it isin shaping decisions, in in
having you close doors beforeyou even, you know, know what's
behind them, and it it reallycould do that to you.
And I think I just reached thatpoint in my own life where I
(29:08):
said and, again, this is part ofthat big midlife pivot. And I
said, I'm not going to do thatanymore. I'm just gonna go for
it, and I know I'll still havedoubts. But the difference is I
won't let the doubts stop me.And so what I say in relation to
that is failure and success walkthrough the same door.
(29:31):
And if you don't hold the dooropen to failure, you cannot also
hold the door open to success.
Merry (29:38):
Oh, that's powerful.
Cathy (29:41):
Learned. Yeah. I like it.
Merry (29:43):
I like it a lot. And and in a way, is that advice you'd
give to a a writer just startingout?
Amy L.Bernstein (29:49):
To a writer starting out, my advice is
always write and write andwrite. Study your craft. Find
really trusted people whounderstand writing to give you
valuable feedback that's notyour friend. It's not your
sister unless they'reprofessionals. You and so you
need to find a writing communitythat understands what you're
(30:11):
doing, that can help you torefine and improve your craft.
And don't worry about publishingso much in the beginning. Worry
about becoming the best writerthat you can and being
passionate about this yourstorytelling. That's where you
need to start.
Cathy (30:25):
Yeah. Right. So
Merry (30:28):
you also operate as a book coach and a writer. So talk
about what a book coach is, andwho needs one?
Amy L.Bernstein (30:37):
A book coach can be a couple of different
things. A book coach can bewriting is a deeply, deeply
lonely and doubt filled kind ofbusiness. Right? And it's really
hard to know what you're doing,if you're doing it right, if
you're doing the right thing, ifyou're working too slowly, if
you're making wrong turns, ifyour material's any good. It's
very hard to know this whenyou're writing on your own.
(31:00):
A book coach can function as anaccountability partner to help a
writer continue to make progresson a difficult project. A book
coach can also help with thenitty gritty of helping a writer
figure out how to structure astory, whether it's a novel or a
non fiction book, whether that'san expose or a memoir or
(31:21):
history, whatever it might be,to help them to find the right
structure for that book so thatthey're gonna tell the story in
a way that really connectspowerfully with readers. One of
the challenges that I see andother book coaches see over and
over and over is people whomight have a pretty good
facility with a sentence, theybut they have no there's no
(31:44):
structure to what they'vewritten. So you get fifty,
sixty, 70,000 words, and it'snot going anywhere. There's no
big there's no sense ofmomentum.
There's no sense of it building.There's no sense of what's the
point? What why are you tellingme this now? So that's
structure. So a book coach helpsa great deal with using specific
tools and working closely with awriter.
(32:07):
A book coach is also very muchthat champion. You know, when
the going gets tough, it's like,you can do this. I'm gonna help
you through this. I'm gonna talkyou off the edge of the cliff
because you're feeling burnedout, and we're gonna keep going.
I work with clients, oh, easily,a year, eighteen months, two
years at a stretch.
If they're starting from a roughidea for a book and we have to
(32:29):
get all the way through to areally sharp compelling book
proposal that you could take toan agent, that takes a long
time. So if you're doing thatwith a book coach, you've got
somebody to guide you all theway through. If you're doing it
on your own, you often get lost.So the question is to who needs
a book coach, it's a writerwho's really serious about
(32:49):
writing a book that's gonna havesome commercial viability, and
they wanna write the best bookthat they can.
Cathy (32:55):
So if it's such a long ongoing process, how do you
structure your fees?
Amy L.Bernstein (33:00):
I structure my fees in phases. So I have a
contract with a client, andwe'll have a four to six month
contract where we agree to covercertain things. It might be a
one, two, or three phasecontract just depending. And
when we get and if when we getthere and you can't know exactly
when, but I've gotten prettygood at estimating. When you get
there, then often, if we need tokeep going, we'll just have a
(33:24):
new contract and kind of renewour vows, so to speak.
We'll figure out we'll figureout, okay, what are we where
where are we now in thisprocess, and what's what are our
goals for this next phase?Because you can't you can't see
foresee it all at once.
Cathy (33:38):
No. Of course, you can't. And in addition to that book
coach hat that you wear, Amy,tell everyone what services you
offer and tell us what you'dlike our listeners to have as a
takeaway today.
Amy L.Bernstein (33:53):
So as a book coach, I do work with people on
serious nonfiction books, and Iwill very selectively work with
memoir if there's a sort ofactivist component to it,
meaning that the memoirist isalso someone who's active out in
the world and there's a kind ofa social component to the book
or historical component. So,they can visit my book coaching
(34:17):
website, wordfirstbookcoach.com,and I'm sure you can put that
put that in writing. And Okay. II really wish I wish for every
creative person, whether they'rea writer or in some other field,
I wish for every creative personto give themselves the
permission to be be vulnerable,to break new ground, and make
(34:39):
progress in this thing that youwant to do or that you want to
become. It is never too late totry, and it is never too late to
start something new.
And risk is a joyful thingbecause it helps us see
ourselves in a new light. Andthat's that's really a gift if
we've been on the planet for acouple of years, to be able to
sort of reimagine ourselves. SoI say go for it.
Cathy (35:01):
I love that. Thank you.
Merry (35:03):
Yeah. Thank you so much. That's very, very inspiring. I
mean, when you think grandmaMoses did her painting at 80,
and now eighty's young. Right?
Cathy (35:13):
Yes. And seeming like it's younger all the time.
Amy L.Bernstein (35:18):
Every year. Absolutely. Yeah.
Merry (35:21):
Yeah. I have a neighbor who just turned 100, and she's
walking around, and and shereceived a plaque from the city
of Los Angeles where Kathy and Ilive that she's one of the cent
what is it? Centigenerian?
Amy L.Bernstein (35:36):
Centigenerian. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm about
to become a grandmother for thefirst time, and so that's that's
a milestone in in my Granny.
Merry (35:44):
Oh, absolutely. Going forward. Congratulations.
Amy L.Bernstein (35:47):
Thank you.
Cathy (35:48):
Thank you. For sure.
Merry (35:50):
Thank you, Amy. Our guest today on our late boomers
podcast has been writer and bookcoach Amy L. Bernstein. Her
website is amywrites.live. And,also, would you tell again what
your other book other site is sothat people can come to
Amy L.Bernstein (36:09):
you for
Intro (36:10):
They can find the book coach they
Amy L.Bernstein (36:11):
can learn all about all about my books on the
website you mentioned. They canfind a link to the book coaching
from the website you mentioned,but the book coaching website is
wordwordfirstbookcoach.com.
Merry (36:23):
Wordfirstbookcoach.com. And you can see what Amy offers
and take her doubt quiz as well.So thank you again, Amy. It's
been a joy.
Amy L.Bernstein (36:35):
Thank you, Mary and Kathy.
Cathy (36:37):
You're welcome. We at the Late Boomers Podcast wanna
invite you to please subscribeto our YouTube channel even if
you are listening on the otherplatforms. We're thanking you in
advance. Please, you can find uson Instagram and Facebook also.
Next week, we will have as ourguest, Susan Normandy Eisenberg,
(36:59):
who writes about vocal andperforming arts.
Thanks for listening today, andthanks again to our guest, Amy
Bernstein.
Thank you for joining us on late boomers, the podcast
(37:21):
that is your guide to creating athird act with style, power, and
impact. Please visit our websiteand get in touch with us at
lateboomers.us. If you wouldlike to listen to or download
other episodes of late boomers,go to ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry (37:41):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcast, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use of the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.
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