From Broadway's "Rent" to TV's Emmys: Behind the Curtain with Billy Aronson

Episode Transcript
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Merry (00:01):
This is the EWN Podcast Network.

Cathy (00:14):
Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide to creating
your third act with style,power, and impact. Hi. I'm Cathy
Worthington.

Merry (00:24):
And I'm Merry Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations with successfulentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.

Cathy (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you along for the
ride on each interview,recounting the journey our
guests have taken to get wherethey are, inspiring you to
create your own path to success.Let's get started. Hello, and
welcome to late boomers. I'mKathy Worthington, and I'm here

(00:55):
with my cohost, Mary Elkins. Andwe are welcoming a new guest to
our show today, Billy Aronson,who is a prolific playwright and
lyricist and author of the bookOut of My Head, as well as the
winner of five Emmy Awards.

Merry (01:11):
And I'm Mary Elkins. In 1988, Billy conceived of a
musical based on Puccini's LaBoheme, which eventually became
the Broadway musical Rent, andhe later went on to win four
Tony Awards and become, and itbecame a major motion picture as
well. And we will delve intothat story with him and hear all

(01:32):
about the many ventures manyother ventures and plays.
Welcome to late boomers, Billy.

Billy Aronson (01:38):
I'm thrilled to be here, Mary and Kathy. Thanks
for having me. Great tointroduction. Gosh.

Cathy (01:44):
It's so special. Well, please tell us about the early
days of your career and creatingthe concept for Rent.

Well, okay. I'll go very quickly through the
early days because that was likewhen I was a toddler. I was just
always Oh, Always in my head andalways making up little songs or
little plays for my brother andsister. And I guess I found in
college, in the beginning ofcollege, I just needed to start
writing plays because my hearthad been so broken by a romance.

(02:14):
Aw.
And I had all these Aw. Aw,yeah. But I suddenly saw the
world in a different way, and Ineeded to scream about
something. It was a joyousscream, and it was a scared
scream. It was everything.
But I didn't I couldn't do itthrough music or acting, which
I'd done before. I needed towrite a play so I could have
control of the whole universe,And that became my obsession.

(02:37):
And I did it all throughcollege. I would make my friends
be in my plays somehow duringexam period and write them and
and sit there and watch theaudience not get them and learn
from each failure each year.And, and then I went right on to
drama school at Yale DramaSchool, and, that was hard.
I think the main thing I learnedat Yale Drama School was not to

(02:58):
listen to everything otherpeople tell you to do. That in
the end, you have to decide foryourself what you need to do and
be your own best critic.

Merry (03:05):
That you learned it then.

Know. Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard lesson, because I
really always wanted people tojust tell me what to do. Tell me
what to have all these wisepeople sit around and listen to
your play.
It's very hard not to think, oh,if I do what they say, it'll be
great. But we're all so unique.You know, in the end, we're just
so different that the correctanswers are different for each
of us. Mhmm. So when I went tolive in New York after drama
school, I kinda started againjust questioning everything and

(03:31):
going to see everything, and Isaw lots of opera, because I
lived in Hell's Kitchen, in ateeny tiny apartment where I had
no room even to daydream,because I didn't really have my
own bedroom.
My room was the living roomwhich I would sleep in. So no
privacy, but I would go up tothe Metropolitan Opera, which
was a few blocks away, andwatch, and for a low sum like 3
or $4, get standing room at theMetropolitan Opera, and I'd have

(03:55):
five hours of free time todaydream. Anyway, so I saw lots
of plays and operas and startedwriting everything and knocking
on every door at all thetheaters. I thought if there was
a theater that I liked, I wouldlet them know about me, and some
doors started off. There wassome interest, and I started
getting readings, but it wasn'tgoing fast enough.

(04:16):
So like at one point, I'dwritten a play, a bunch of
theaters were reading it andconsidering it, and I could
write another play, but why? Imean, it's just I was already
begging every theater I knew todo this last play, so I decided
to try working on a musical. Andafter seeing La Boheme at the
Met, one of my favorite operas,which is about, of course,

(04:38):
starving young people in Paris,I related to that, but thought,
my gosh, it's so luscious, theirworld. Franco Zaffarelli had
designed this set, and wasgorgeous, and they're singing
these gorgeous notes, thesearias about being in love, even
though it's cold and it'sfreezing and you have to burn
your own plays for heat. It's Sovery romantic, and I loved it,

(04:59):
but on the way home, this was inthe mid eighties, it was just so
bleak, and people were dying inthe streets, and money was in
fashioning.
You wanted to be was materialMaterial Girl was the pop song,
and you wanted to be rich, andnobody thought you were cool for
being an artist. So I wanted towrite my version of that story,
but set it in New York now withrough, noisy music that matched

(05:24):
the time warp.

Cathy (05:25):
Mhmm. And hopefully, we've all seen it.

I hope so.

Cathy (05:29):
I've seen it a gazillion times.

Oh, I love

Merry (05:31):
Oh, yeah.

You're my best friend. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks
for sending my kids to college.But anyway, yeah, so I mean,
there was a long distancebetween my having that thought
and your seeing the show.
Most of it, because JonathanLarson, I met up with him. I was
introduced to I was recommendedto two composers, actually. He
was one of them, and the mostexcited about the idea that I

(05:53):
had. And so we worked on it fora couple years, and we didn't
quite know where to take it. Wehad three songs we were really
excited about and a basicstructure, but we went on with
two separate projects becausetheaters weren't grabbing at it,
and we didn't want to waste ourtime with something that was
just gonna be sit there and havereadings.

(06:13):
But eventually he said, Can I goahead on my own? And I said,
Sure. Those were good songs. Dowhat you can. As I got busy with
my other plays and raising afamily and all that.
And, of course, he did get itmade beautifully, and that was
quite an adventure. But, anyway,luckily, had something in
writing, so I I still get thecredit for original concept and

(06:34):
additional lyrics, which I'mvery proud.

Merry (06:37):
Well, how did it how did it change your life? And other
than what you said about thelesson you learned in college
about not listening to otherpeople's ideas, what was the
lesson you learned as part ofthe process of actually helping
to create rant? Rant.

So much. Well, I learned how not to collaborate
because I did everything wrong,and I think in a way Jonathan
did. We both wanted it to beexactly what we wanted, and we
didn't if something wasn'texactly what we wanted, I mean,
you know, each of us is incontrol of our universe. The
pleasure of making art is thatfinally there's something you
could control, and so when twoheads come together, it's

(07:18):
exciting because right away, allof a sudden I've got this cool
music that I can't write, andall of a sudden he's got these
stories that he couldn't havecome up with.

Merry (07:27):
Mhmm.

So it's a thrill, but then when you start working,
you say, He writes music forsomething that I wrote. It's
like, But I wouldn't havewritten exactly that sound. That
sounds melodramatic to me, andthen all up for him. Yeah, but
he doesn't want the story to gowhere I'm sending it, so it's
very frustrating, but of courseyou have to talk. You have to
really talk it out.

(07:48):
You know, it's like in amarriage. Harder I think,
because it's so often in mymarriage, Lisa and I go our
separate ways, and she does whatshe wants with the carpet, and I
do what I want with thespeakers, you know? But with a
musical, can't really do that.It's all every word I would
write is controlled by his musicand vice And we didn't talk very
well. Either we would love, justlove what the other person had

(08:09):
done, or just get and just saysomething mean about it, And
then eventually go ahead.
Go on.

Cathy (08:16):
I didn't wanna interrupt you, but I wanna tell you I was
privileged to see the originalcast of, the Broadway cast of
Rant in the early days when itopened, and it opened up a whole
new section of Broadway thatpeople had never seen before.
And everything was different andnew. And I know you did the
lyrics to the song Santa Fe andthe song I Should Tell You,

(08:40):
which is really a turning pointin the show. But was it did it
feel like a great sorrow to youto not do the others? Or or did
you feel still feel that youwere involved at the time it
opened?

All of the above. It was a great disappointment
not to be involved with thismeteoric smash success Yeah.
That would make billions ofdollars, that won Pulitzer
Prizes and those Tonys youmentioned, you know, so I wasn't
a part of that. But I never youknow, and I felt everything. I
felt proud to be associated withit, jealous, angry when people

(09:15):
tell the story without me,embarrassed when they tell the
story with me.
Mean, it's just been veryemotional for a sensitive guy,
but I wouldn't have changed athing because it's his musical.
It's very much a Jonathan Larsonmusical with my little
contribution, and and that's

Merry (09:30):
And your

idea, successful. Yeah. That worked as it is, so I
wouldn't change a thing because,why push it a little in any
direction? I I don't generallythink about what if and what
changing, you know, because why?

Cathy (09:43):
That's healthy.

And it's not because it's not not my thing,
in the end, I don't look at itand say, that's Billy Aronson.
There are little parts I do. Inever felt like I wished it were
half me or something. Mhmm.Anyway, I'm just so glad to be
working on my own stuff, and I'mso proud of my own stuff, and
it's nice to have that incomeand that credit and to get to

(10:05):
meet people like you through it.
So

Cathy (10:07):
That's great.

I'm very grateful for how it worked out.

Merry (10:09):
Yeah. Well, talk a little bit about the lyrics of of the
songs that you wrote, such asSanta Fe and I Should Tell You.

Okay.

Merry (10:17):
What did they mean to you?

Okay. Well, I wrote the part that I wrote that
is in Rent was written in arather quick burst of
inspiration. After somefrustrating tries to get started
with Jonathan, I finally said tohim, look. I just have to do it
my way. I can't argue with him,but I can't try to explain it to
you what I'm trying to do.
And so I sat down, and I wrotethe first song Rent, and then

(10:42):
Santa Fe, and then a couple moresongs, and then I should tell
you rather quickly. It was a fewdays, I guess, a couple weeks,
but just I just let them comeout of my heart, and I wanted
them to be as pure and asunsmoothed out, rough

Cathy (10:56):
Mhmm.

With the rhymes of them, but like an angry
rhythm or a very specificrhythm, a specific personality
that was original and differentthan what you usually hear. So
the first song Rent, he changeda lot, but it's still the
structure that I wrote. How arewe gonna pay this month? You
know, over and over again. Yeah.
Bitter irony of that. And thenSanta Fe just, I wanted it to be
cool. Because I was inspired bymy philosopher friend Larry

(11:19):
Vogel, who had in drama school.When I was in drama school at
Yale, he was doing philosophythere with his interpretable
thesis, and we and our othergrad student friends would get
together and say, what are wedoing here? Why are we killing
ourselves to get these jobs thatwon't even pay money, etcetera?
And we would fantasize aboutopening up a restaurant. I'd
been to Santa Fe the summerbefore, and it seemed like, wow,

(11:42):
this is just beautiful, andpeople are friendly here, and
and and there's a great artscommunity. So although I never
wanted to leave New York,really, it was it was a fun
conversation that we would havelate at night when struggling
with our writing. Anyway, so andit Larry is very voluble and
says speaks in a cool way, andso I wanted it in contrast to

(12:03):
the opening song with all thenoise, I wanted it be kind of
smooth, and so that's that'swhat that lyric came out of. And
then I should tell you, at thetime, of course, everyone was
you had to ask everybody as soonas you considered romantic
entanglement, Whom have youslept with lately?
This is the mid-80s. Who

Cathy (12:22):
has 80s? It

was terrible. It was a terrible, terrible tragic
disease, and having to deal withthat in a romantic situation was
weird. And just generally And

Cathy (12:34):
can I just say I love the way the song dances around that
and never says that because thatis what they mean they should
tell each other? But they keeptalking about the candle. The I
blew out the candle. The candleburned my you know, whatever.
Yeah.
You're talking about the candle,but they they really mean to
tell each other that they bothhave AIDS or she has AIDS, I

(12:56):
guess. They both do. Everybodydoes.

Merry (12:59):
Don't

Cathy (12:59):
they? Everybody in the whole show, I think.

Pretty much. But, anyway, so, yeah, that that song
was it was also because as aplaywright, I'm often it's it's
embarrassing talking about yourlife, you know, the way that
that Rodolfo and the operasings, I'm poor, but I have
friends. Mhmm. I was try I tryto say that to people, but it
was very money was so important,and there was depression and

(13:23):
anxiety around all this stuff.The whole thing with opening up
was not, was awkward, really,and they have these little
phrases where they try to saythings to each other, but
eventually they get carried awayin this, and they come together
with their awkward littlephrases.
So that's that song. Yeah.

Cathy (13:40):
Yeah. Beautiful.

Merry (13:41):
Talking about your life, talk about your book a little
bit, Out of My Head. It's afabulous blueprint for young
creatives looking out to tocraft a career in the arts. But
can you talk about the advicethat you have for someone in
midlife too or beyond who'slooking to embark on an artistic

(14:03):
endeavor.

Oh, and we should. We should always embark.
Yeah. The book is about, at allages, how you need to constantly
reinvent yourself. For example,when I had a play one time,
finally a play at PlaywrightsHorizons, this glorious New York
theater, I finally got to thatpinnacle, and it wasn't reviewed

(14:25):
well.
So suddenly, no, after all thesedoors had opened, they all
closed. So I had to redefinemyself. I said, okay, now this
one theater that wanted to do myplays wanted to do one so I
wrote a lot of one acts. Thatbecame the new me. And then when
I was when I was tired ofwriting plays, like, just didn't
have ideas that excited meanymore.
Should I try to write anotherplay because the theater wants
one? No. Then the opportunitycame along to do children's

(14:49):
television, which sounds like acompletely different thing, and
guess what? It wasn't at all.The better it got I found
writing for television sometimescould be just money, mainly for
money, or like an intersectionbetween what I love and what
somebody else wants.
But the the children'stelevision show I got to create
with my friend Jennifer Oxley,who's an artist, was as artistic

(15:11):
as anything I've ever worked on.PBS was a great client, and they
let us express ourselves and ourart. It was educational, but I
think all art is educational. Itopens your eyes to the world
around you. And at any rate, itwas a glorious, I guess ten
years even, we spent making thisshow, we built a company, and
this was late in life,relatively.
Mhmm. Well, they used to die at35 when Mozart said, so I find

(15:34):
it's it's sort of timeless now.I'm 68, but I just feel like I
feel new, and I feel like afterwriting the book, I still feel
like I'm trying everything isnew, and everything's an
adventure and ridiculous. In thearts, it has to be new. You
don't wanna do the same thingover and over again.
Always have to be questioningand thinking, okay. What else
can I do? What else isinteresting?

Cathy (15:56):
Well, speaking of new

I love this.

Cathy (15:58):
I am falling in love with your new show that you've
developed with the fantasticcomposer. How do you say her
first name?

Ji Hae Lee.

Cathy (16:05):
Ji Ji Hae Lee.

Yeah. She's Korean American.

Cathy (16:08):
So And it's called Love War.

Love War.

Cathy (16:10):
I fell in love with the demos that are on her website.
Just love them.

Yeah.

Cathy (16:16):
And for that, you developed the concept of taking
Shakespeare's Troilus andCressida of all things into
modern day and her music isfantastic as are your lyrics.

Oh my god. That's nice.

Cathy (16:28):
I was in Troilus and Cressida at UCLA and it's sort
of relatively unknown asShakespeare plays go. I mean,
it's a little it's dry and superlong.

Yes.

Cathy (16:40):
Yes. Very long. Yes. Excruciatingly long. Yes.
This I'm sure this won't be.

That's what attracted me to it. Excruciating
no. I'm kidding. I I don't wantexcruciating, but we've

Cathy (16:50):
But will it be difficult for this project to launch, and
how is it going so far?

Well, so far, a couple of theaters are
interested in doing it nextyear. The Prague Shakespeare
Company and the CincinnatiShakespeare Players. Actually,
it's the Prague ShakespearePlayers, Cincinnati Shakespeare
Company are doing a coproductionthat will have two openings in
Prague and Cincinnati. So, youknow, to my delight, it seems

(17:19):
that there are people willing totake it on, but I will say, and
they loved the Shakespeare play,but I agree with you, in a way
it's hilarious that anyone wouldtry to make a musical about
Twilight and Cressida becauseit's so nasty.

Cathy (17:30):
It's nasty and dry and it's warm.

Dry and long and they talk a lot. Oh my gosh.

Cathy (17:36):
When I was in that show, I had a small part and there
were lots of people with smallparts, And we all played cards
backstage because I went on inact two scene two, and then I
had about two hours till I wenton in act five scene three.

Merry (17:50):
Oh, jeez.

Cathy (17:50):
I mean, it is the longest and we would play hearts and and
a lot of the actors were in theexact same boat, most most of
the other ones were guys.

Yeah. Yeah.

Cathy (17:59):
And, you know, it was a riot.

But Well, the cast of this one won't have a
chance to play hearts. It's muchOh, good.

Cathy (18:06):
And it's

a it's a musical, it's much more direct and right
to the Not that we're trying tobe better than Shakespeare, but
just that I found something inthat amazing Shakespeare play
that I think is sort of hidden,because it's so nasty, but I
think truly these people, evenif they love poorly, even if
Troilus just lusts and doesn'tknow how to love this young
woman, and even if Cressida isacting a lot to protect herself

(18:27):
from these crazy men all aroundher, they're still they still
want very badly to love, and itstill hurts when it doesn't work
out a lot. And even if theseguys are, these animal, their
leaders are fighting this stupidwar that they don't even know
why they're fighting, and theyjust keep fighting, they keep
making up bullshit, they'restill trying to be more than

(18:48):
apes. They still think they'rebetter. So we tried to capture
that, and also, I decided towrite it after around 2020, I
guess, when the Capitol wasbeing attacked, and language had
seemed to mean nothing. It justseemed words could mean the
exact opposite of what theymeant before.
Mhmm. So I thought this is true.I was impressed with that. It's
a crazy world, and ultimately,what gives it a lot of heart is

(19:11):
the young people who are stuckin this trying to find something
better. So

Cathy (19:15):
Yeah, and I love the logline that after ten years of
war, they don't remember whatthey're fighting for because
obviously if you're young andyou came in up in that as a
baby, you wouldn't remember tenyears. If you're only 20, you
don't know what they're fightingabout. Right?

That's true.

Merry (19:33):
That's true, and it applies to today too.

Yes. To the conflicts of today.

Cathy (19:40):
Contacted the voices you used on the demos, those actors
are fantastic.

Oh, thanks. Thanks. Yeah. We we spend a lot
of

Cathy (19:47):
love those. Available just to hear little bits. I love
those.

Oh, thank you. Thanks so much. Yeah. Anyway,
yeah, it's been a lot of fun towork on, and a lot of challenges
lie ahead with it. I'm sure aswe develop it, it will we'll
have to change a lot.
Talking about challengescomplicated.

Merry (20:02):
Talking about challenges, like all pursuits, the creative
life is filled with a lot of upsand downs. So when it comes to
weathering those periods offrustration and and upset and
wanting to give up and sadness,what are what are your most
valuable words of wisdom forplaying the long game in the

(20:23):
arts? Mhmm. Lot of people giveup.

Well, a lot I have a lot of advice for those
people. K.

Merry (20:31):
Love to hear that.

One thing is

Cathy (20:34):
Take notes.

I particularly say this to young people. Try to
enjoy your life. Try to enjoyyour even though you don't know
where you're going. This is anyage, I guess. Even though you
don't know that it's gonna work,have a little faith.
I I have the example of a play Iwrote, an opera I was working on
with a composer in the nineties,that we could not get produced.
No one would do it. We loved it,but it was done in workshops at

(20:56):
schools and churches, andfinally we just gave up. I said,
okay, I guess it's a stupid ideaafter all. I just put it aside.
Then thirty years later, wascontacted by a theater in Sweden
that does operas on a hugestage, one of the largest stages
in Europe, with a big budget anda 45 piece orchestra, and they
flew me out to see it, and itwas glorious. So in other words,

(21:16):
even I, when I despaired it, youcan't despair anymore. Why would
you despair? You don't knowwhat's gonna happen with your
work. It might be after you'redead, you know?
So you have to believe in it.Put your heart into it. Make it
so you're so proud of it,because you've got to be your
own toughest critic. I never askanybody to look at something if
I think, Well, I'm not sure.I've got to be sure.
It's great. Then and then putget it to people, and then move

(21:40):
on, because you don't know.You've you've made something
beautiful. Keep going. Keepmaking something There's nothing
wrong with taking a break fromit.
If you need to take a break tomake money or just because
you're tired of it, your artwill be there. I talk to a lot
of people who say, well, I was aplaywright, but I'm not writing
writing now, but you're buildingpotential energy when you're not
writing. You know, you'reliving, you're learning, you're

(22:02):
suffering, you're longing, andthat can all pour into a work,
maybe a novel or a painting orsomething. So I'm a very
positive thinker, and I thinkyou need a positive attitude.
You need to schedule.
For me personally, I need to getup on Monday morning and be
working, or I feel bad. So I'malways working on something,
even if it's just reading.Question? Ah.

Cathy (22:23):
Well, you know, you've written so many plays too. Do
you have a favorite you'd liketo discuss or maybe a great
story about one of the openingsor the runs of them?

Yeah. Okay.

Cathy (22:35):
Does something pop out?

Pop out? I'm thinking of what pops out. One
very exciting opportunity I hadwas to do a play, a new play
that opened in two cities atonce, like I guess we're talking
about this next one will. Butthis was a non musical play in
02/2009, sort of a farce, thatwas done the the eighteen twelve
company in Philadelphia, they doall comedy, and the SF Playhouse

(23:02):
in San Francisco, that's sort ofthe art theater in San
Francisco. So I could fly backand forth and learn about it in
stereo.
And because the productions wereboth really good, I could see
how different audiences anddifferent situations completely
changed the feeling of things.For example, there was a it was
just a bigger theater inPhiladelphia. It was a really

(23:23):
big theater, and so there was abunch of physical business on a
couch that takes place, and inSan Francisco, you were really
close to those people on thecouch, and it was powerful. In
Philadelphia, you were far awayfrom them, and it was charming
but not as powerful. Whereas inPhiladelphia, when somebody
started laughing, they would allstart laughing, it was hundreds
of people in the balcony, andthat big audience, everybody

(23:45):
laughing, it became like thisgroup, It's like a circus or an
orgy or something with elfsomething wonderful is what I'm
trying to say.

Cathy (23:52):
A circus Really,

and an exhilarating. That many people
laughing at the same moment. Youjust feel like, wow, I don't
know you, but we're all human atthe same time. They got the
laughs in San Francisco too, butthere was an extra thrill about
it with a big audience. Soadvantages to both both
settings, but that was a coollearning experience, being able

Cathy (24:12):
to And appear like what play was what was that called?

It was called The First Day of School. It was sort
of a farce about married parentswho are at that stage where
they're letting their kids go toschool for the first time, and
they suddenly realize, wow,there's more to life than just
raising kids. What's happened tous? And so they have a little
bit of a sexual escapadeadventure sort of comedy. It's a
bizarre play, but people seem torelate to it at least on the two

(24:36):
coasts.

Cathy (24:37):
Oh, that's interesting. Think that's a great. Anything
else that stands out about aspecial opening or something
happened that you were maybe notthinking it was going gonna be
that way and it came outdifferent?

Everything comes out different in the theater.

Merry (24:54):
Every night?

I'm trying to every night it's different, but
especially opening night. Therewas a play my first one act that
was done in New York was bad. Imade mistakes. It was a mess.
And having a sentence or two inthe New York Times that was not
nice about you, it really hurtmy feelings.
So more than it should have. Andso the next a couple years

(25:16):
later, I had another one actbeing done in New York, and I
was sure the same thing wasgonna happen. Oh. I was sure
that I was gonna find somemistake I'd made, even though
spent a long time crafting thisplay, looking at it from every
angle up and down. It was calledLight Years, a one act about
four college students who werejust starting college.
And I checked it so carefully,and then as we were watching

(25:37):
rehearsals, was where is theline that's going to ruin it all
so they'll call me an idiotagain in The New York Times? You
know, I really These couldn'tsay actors were so charming, and
they were so funny, and I wouldbring in friends to look at it,
they'd say, oh, this is so good.I was like, I can't fail this
time, but then like there wasone line, the last line of the
act, one act, it's all serious,then all of a sudden someone

(25:57):
picks up the phone and they say,my father died. And it's a
serious line, which I thoughtwhen I was writing it, it seemed
really cool to have funny,funny, funny, odd, funny, then
odd. And yet watching it inrehearsals, I thought, oh my
god.
This is so pretentious. What astupid idea. As the audience
gets closer, I get moreneurotic, you know? Then what
was I thinking my father that'sinsane. This is a comedy.

(26:20):
Who are you to put thispretentious heavy line in there?
And I took it out, I had theactors try something else, and
some my father's dying, had themtry a comedy, take out you know,
have them do something farcicaland fall down at the end. None
of it worked. And finally, whensomeone was watching a rehearsal
with my father's dying, theysaid, why don't you just have my
father die? It's more complete.
So I left it the way I'doriginally had it. The audience

(26:42):
came in. I was terrified, andpeople laughed throughout the
whole one act, and at the endwith the last line, there were
guests. My father died.

Cathy (26:50):
That's what I saw.

Probably good, right? That's probably good, and
the critics singled out thatline as being great. It's so
powerful. It's intense. It'sthrilling.
It's moving. It's original, andthey finish. You won't believe
the climax. Wow. What did Ilearn from this?
I learned that I can't makecreative decisions when the
audience is on the way. Youknow, if you're too close, I

(27:11):
just can't you can't writedefensively, I guess, should
say.

Cathy (27:14):
Oh, right.

Merry (27:15):
And you surprised yourself.

I surprised myself. Yeah. Learning how to
sense of yourself is part of it.Yeah.

Merry (27:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Talking about television again, you you won
Emmys for writing Peg and Cat.Can you tell us a little bit
about that show and what thosewins mean to

you? Well, about the show, I loved working on it.
As I said, my partner Jennifer,we, unlike Jonathan and me,
Jennifer Oxley and I had a greatcollaboration. She's the visual
person, right? She knowsdirection of animation and what
we should be seeing, and todesign the characters, and to
block them where they shouldmove.
She also she really understandsthe other aspects of it, but she

(28:00):
did her thing, and I did mything. We put our heads together
and created some characters whowould go on adventures that were
sort of acting out math wordproblems. So it was physical
comedy, it was wacky, and a lotof heart. And creativity reigned
as far as we were concerned. Thevisuals could be anything, and I
experimented with the writing toit, ending things in different

(28:21):
ways and changing, messing withthe form.
Anyway, so it was lots of fun.There was the responsibility of
running a company. When you'reworking for PBS, you have to
have your own company. You don'tjust live at PBS and work for
them. Oh.
So with a lot of responsibility,figuring out what to pay people
and where to put the money andthat sort of thing, which was

(28:41):
challenging, but makingsomething with people that you
love. Jennifer knew a lot of thepeople, I knew a lot of the
people that we brought in toanimate it and to do the music,
and to design things, and tocome up with the props, and to
produce us. Working with a teamof people that you admire, and
who respect what you're doing,and who love their jobs, who

(29:02):
look it's such a great feeling.You know, it's a high. And to be
able to create with that manypeople, and you're all working
on one thing, and we did have apower structure, so Jen and I
were at the top, it wasn't likethey could do whatever they
wanted, but within ourinstructions and within our, the
thing, the scripts and theoutlines we gave them, they
seemed to work creatively and tobe able to put their own heart

(29:23):
into it.
That was How

Cathy (29:25):
many episodes did you do of that show?

Okay. The first season was 60 was a hundred and
thirty eleven minute episodes,which means sixty five half
hours, but that means a lot of130 stories, many of which I had
to write, all of which I wasresponsible for. So yeah, that
was when I needed to startgetting medicated for anxiety.
And then Aw. Also, yeah, it wascharming.

(29:50):
But I'm so glad I was because Iloved the job. It was worth it.
Then Yeah. The second we had asecond season, but it wasn't
that many, but it might havebeen 90 more stories or
something. Anyway

Cathy (29:58):
Oh, yeah. What what was it?

Merry (30:01):
What did you

Cathy (30:01):
The Emmys.

Merry (30:02):
Yeah. What did you tell me

thrilled. Well, I'll I'll honestly, I can
objectively say I think they'resilly. I think all these prizes,
their shows are silly, but thereare there's something arbitrary
in their popularity contests,and the main thing is the joy of
making what you make and beingproud of it and knowing it's
good even if nobody notices it,nobody agrees. They have the
disadvantage of honoring somepeople in a show instead of
everybody, so there are terriblethings about them. But if you

(30:25):
win, I love them.
I just love My my my Everybodydoes.

Cathy (30:30):
Otherwise, it's very safe to put them down.

Right. Right? We all do.

Merry (30:35):
So is the show in syndication at all? Does PBS
show it around the world?

Yeah. It's streaming. It was around the
world on the air. I don't knowwhich countries are airing it
now in which ways, but noweverything is sort of when you
make it, it's still there. Youknow what I mean?
Mhmm. So kids still watch it.They stream it. They put it on
their phones and their devicesthat I don't even know what the
devices are. So it's still outthere, and they can't To take it

Cathy (31:00):
expand a little on that, can you talk about how writing
for TV, stage, and film foradult and kid audiences helps
you flex different artisticmuscles and keep your work fresh
and exciting.

Well, does that. Sure, well, one thing about
writing for the children'stelevision, I got to write a lot
of stories. Writing for thetheater, you spend years with
one story, which is great. Youknow, you're struggling to get
it right.

Cathy (31:28):
Oh, right.

And make sure it works, and make sure the actors
are right and the directors areright so that it plays, and the
audience will appreciate whatyou've done. At least for me in
TV, was very fast and lots ofstories, and I loved writing
lots of stories. We chose aformat that, you know, with
problem solved, problemestablished in the beginning,
solved in the end, and a tightformat so that it was like

(31:50):
jamming at the pia someone wasjamming these chords that you
recognize, but you can play alldifferent solos to it. In fact,
when you get comfortable, can doanything you want with those
chords. You can turn them insideout.
And I love the chance to writestories where Peg and Cat could
go anywhere, our heroes. So theycould be helping Romeo and
Juliet get from one person'swindow to the other using
parallel lines, you know? Orthey could be in ancient Egypt.

(32:12):
They could be helping AlbertEinstein. What fun to write
those stories for a Supermanparody.

Merry (32:17):
And what a learning experience for kids and for you.

Yes. And for me, always for me.

Cathy (32:22):
I think always Because maybe it's their first
introduction to Romeo and Julietor any of Yes. The other

That really was fun and surprise and as you say,
I learned a lot through it. Whenyou do something and it works,
boy, that's a good feeling.Something you don't Did

Cathy (32:37):
you really get need any to feedback directly from
children? Did you ever get tomeet some of the audience?

Sure. They would do official testing at different
stages where you'd bring in abunch of kids, and an expert
would ask the kids questionsafter they watch an episode of
the show. For me, I learn themost, as I do in the theater,
just from watching the audience.So watching kids watch the show,
I could learn a ton. I thinkit's really not that hard to

(33:05):
tell when someone is interestedin what they're watching or when
they'd rather be somewhere else,especially with kids.
But even with grown ups whothink they're so sophisticated,
when they're watching a play,you can kind of tell if they're
breathing in time with the thingor if they're just sitting back
and and they don't get it. It'slike when you're talking to
someone in a conversation, youcan tell if they're bored or
not. When you're dancing withsomeone, you can tell if they
like you or not, generally, ifyou're honest. For me, did test

(33:32):
it a lot with kids, and I lovedtalking to kids about it. What
did you like?

Merry (33:37):
You remember any comments?

Oh, sure. Well, they loved the one especially
where the pig there was onespecial we did where the world
was about to be crushed beneaththe behind of a gigantic planet
sized pig. They really liketalking about that. They always
said cool things, and if theycould sing the songs, to me it's
more you know, they're not theydon't need to be critics, and
neither I think do adults. Justlike if the kid can sing the

(34:02):
song, they like it.
That's good. If the kid laughsat something, that's good. If
they imitate it, that's great.You know, if they imitate a
character, that's great. Andsang with grown ups.
Could, you know, if they'resinging your songs from Rent,
they like the song. Yeah.

Cathy (34:17):
That's

strange. If you ask someone to criticize you,
they might get in their head alittle bit. I mean, they might
say something useful, but ittends to be more cerebral and
less visceral.

Merry (34:27):
Yeah. And probably not great advice anyway.

Well, you have to be careful with that.

Merry (34:33):
Do you so do you think young people today are more or
less drawn to the to careers inarts? And also, do you see any
trends in new playwriting todayor anything on the horizon?

Sure. The first part, in my neighborhood, least
in Brooklyn, a lot of people arein the arts, but they're they're
a little bit scared to slashtraumatized by what's happening
economically and money beingtaken away from the arts, and
it's always hard in the arts. Imean, there's never a time when
the world says to you, come on,follow your dreams, we'll pay

(35:06):
you. Mhmm. So you have to betough, and it's hard, especially
when you're in your twenties,say, to you feel like your whole
life is waiting on whether yousucceed today or tomorrow.
That's a tough time. So I talkto a lot of young people.
Parents put pressure

Cathy (35:21):
on the kids.

Parents. Even hip parents. Even parents of
themselves wanted to be in thearts. Yeah. You know, get a job,
and I can understand that.
And you do have to find a way tomake money, so you you don't
have to worry all the time. ButI still think if you're an
artist, you're an artist. It'snot something anybody should or
could or should try to stop youfrom being. If you need to

(35:42):
dance, if you need to sing, ifyou need to make beauty in a
certain way, you're gonna do it,so why not enjoy it, and why not
have the parents at leastemotionally support you? Why
does it have to be so hard atthe family at Thanksgiving when
you say what you're doing andthey say, I'm a playwright and
say, oh, thought bubble, what'she really gonna do?
How long is this gonna lastbefore he know? Becomes a And

(36:03):
often they would say, when aregonna become a lawyer? But
anyway, you gotta be tough anddeal with that, but the other
question, you had two questions.

Merry (36:13):
Any new trends in playwriting or musical?

I would say, I think actually musicals right
now is an exciting time, morethan in the theater. I think the
most exciting works, new worksin my lifetime, at least during
my career, in the last twenty,thirty years, have been new
musicals, Rent and SpringAwakening and things like that.

(36:37):
They're just much moreadventurous and interesting
drama with hip music,sophisticated music, and that
relates to now and that youngpeople can relate to, and I
think that's great. In thetheater, I've seen less there's
not a new movement. I mean,there's a wonderful diversity in
the in the authors themselves.

(36:58):
Mhmm. So we're seeingexperiences told about all kinds
of backgrounds, which is great.But as far as a new, you know,
form in the theater or a newwriter who's so exciting that
people are gonna come back tothe theater to see this person,
I'm not sure I see that yet.

Merry (37:14):
Yeah. Mean, Lin Manuel Miranda kind of started a new
trend, and now everybody wantsto do that. He's

great. That's true. There's a lot of does

Cathy (37:24):
it like he does it. No. He does it. You can't copy.

He's so good. Yeah. Right. It would not be
useful. Yeah.
Yeah. But you could be inspiredby him. I think we all are.

Cathy (37:32):
Oh, yes. We read so much about the loneliness crisis in
young people and across agegroups in America. So how can
the arts help moderate thesefeelings of isolation for folks
of all ages?

Well, it's true for me, being an introvert, at
first writing a play didn't takeme right out of that because it
allowed me to be comfortablewith myself, but very soon I was
having to present it tosomebody, so there I I had to
get out of my shell to begpeople to be in my place, to
pass them to theaters, you haveto talk, and it's it's so it

(38:08):
becomes a comfortable and awonderful thing, think, just
being able to talk about whatyou're doing. You're telling the
truth. This is why I'm doing it.This is what I love and why I
love about what you're doing inthe theater, and why I wanna
work with your theater. Sothere's that aspect of it
getting out of your loneliness.
And I think that seeing a workof art that touches us as an
audience, even if we all comealone, we're together by the end

(38:30):
of it. It's thrilling for mewhen I go to the theater, like I
just saw John Proctor's TheVillain in New York. Man, it's
an angry play, and I thinkeveryone in the audience felt
like you'd been throughsomething together. You'd all
been harassed together, and yougroan together, and you cheer
together, and I feel likesomething very intimate was
shared with all of us. We're alla little bit naked with each

(38:51):
other when we watched that play.
And others there are other thereare plenty of others like that,
where I go away talking like,wow, did you see that? Is your
family like that too? You know?

Merry (39:01):
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.

That's I think art it's a great time, an
important time for art. Noteasy, but a very important time
for the arts.

Merry (39:08):
Yeah. And what do you what do you say to the older
people who are trying still tobe artists after many, many
years?

It starts now. It can start any day. You never
know when your career can start.If you read a lot of people, a
lot of histories, some of themstart near the end. Some of them
write this one great work nearthe end, and it's remembered
long after.
You know, it's not evendiscovered till after they're
gone. It's beautiful, write itdown. Kafka was I don't think
was ever known during hislifetime as a writer. At least,

(39:37):
and in often cases, people'sbest work wasn't known until
after. So start today.
If you need to do it, do it. Doit now. You've got plenty of
time. There's enough time. Justmake

Cathy (39:49):
it And make sure you tell somebody where the manuscript
is.

Right. Right. Right. Right.

Cathy (39:55):
And don't put it under the mattress. Right.

No. No. I would not you know, if you love it,
get it out there. That's I don'tknow if people are shy about
that, but you gotta share itwith people. Rejection is okay.
I get lots of rejections. Ialways have.

Merry (40:07):
It's so hard to get it out there. It really is because
you are giving a piece ofyourself, and it's it is
difficult because it's it's likeyou said when you did the play,
and they hated it. Yeah. Thathurts. That hurts.

You gotta come back. You've just got to because
if it's good, they'll findthey'll get that. You've got to
keep trying. I, you know, I Iget rejections all I mean,
nobody knows how many rejectionsRent got, because theaters that
that accepted it and worked onit talk about that a lot. The
theaters that rejected it don'ttalk about it.
Every other theater in New Yorkthat did musicals rejected it.

(40:41):
New York Theater Workshop hadnever done a musical. It was a
big risk. So you've got to getrejected. I mean, Jonathan got
mean, that's one thing I learnedfrom him.
You know, believe in yourself,know that it's great, and and
fight for it. Fight. And thenpeople don't get it or if you
screw up with one, try again.Try the next one.

Cathy (40:59):
Yeah. There was a movie about his early days.

Yes. Yes.

Cathy (41:03):
It was streaming on Netflix or something. It's about

three years ago. Tick Tick

Cathy (41:09):
Boom. I couldn't remember what it was.

I thought Yeah.

Cathy (41:12):
That was really enlightening, him sitting around
the living room writing with hisfriends and just doing pieces of
things, and

Yeah.

Cathy (41:20):
That must have kind of torn your heart a little bit,
right?

Well, I'll tell you the truth, I didn't see it
because I saw it. It wasoriginally a one act play that
Jonathan did himself that I didsee. He after we put Ren aside,
he wanted to work on he wantedto try to tell that story all by
himself of the artists, so hedid something he could have
complete control over, just him.He wrote it all, music words,

(41:44):
lyrics, everything, book, and heacted all the parts, so in that
version of it. So that wasexactly his story of what his
original rent.
And I thought it was very soI've heard that it's good, the
movie of it, and that the playhe's done play versions of it
too, but I'd rather just seethat. It does get a little

(42:06):
emotional.

Cathy (42:07):
Right. It's emotional.

Merry (42:09):
I'd love to talk about writing your book, and also when
people think about writing, itoften conjures up the solitary
pursuit with nobody else around,which is true. And yet, as you
said, you have to go and presentit to people. So how have you
found community in writing inthe theater other than

(42:33):
presenting it? And what lessonscan we learn from that?

You're saying in the community other than in the
theater?

Merry (42:40):
Well, found a community with the theater and with
writing. Yeah.

Yeah. Friends. You know, I I find when you do a
play with people, that's likebeing in the trenches together.
I've become friends for life forthose people. Even if I don't
see them a lot after the play,they always wanna work with you.
They always wanna hear whatyou're up to next, usually, and
I share my writing witheverybody. I do a lot of yoga

(43:05):
now, and I have a lot of youngfriends, That's so I love good.
Yeah, I like young people. Butyeah, there is the need for
community and the longing forcommunity in the arts. That is
always a thing.
You're right. Some people joinwriting groups. I don't. I've
joined writing groups at times,but I generally am so sensitive
about knowing exactly what Iwant to do with my stuff that I

(43:28):
don't need other people to tellme what they hear when it's not
finished.

Merry (43:33):
Yeah.

But I do have, you know, a loose community of
friends in the theater, and alot of my friends are writers
somehow. In fact, all my friendsin New York are working on
something right now, so that'sit's like a community.

Cathy (43:48):
Yeah. Well,

that's It's a better question than I had an
answer for because it is it isabout having a community.

Cathy (43:54):
But that is a good answer. I gave a great answer.

Merry (43:57):
I guess you created your own community.

Yeah. I won it, I guess, is is the incorrect
grammar. Wait a second.

Cathy (44:03):
And how has the use of humor in your work then injected
joy into your life and the livesof others?

Oh, humor is what it's all about in the end. Yeah?
I didn't think about that. WhenI was first writing my plays in
college, I was surprised whenpeople laughed. But the only if
there would be like a minute ofa play that's good out of the
whole play, people would belaughing at it.
So whenever I noticed, wheneversomething worked, this whatever
I was trying to do, this quirkylook at reality, at love or

(44:32):
politics or power, whatever itis, if I got it right, people
would laugh. It's it's sort ofhow I am, and I think it's it's
very important because if I tryto take that out, if I flatten
it, it's not me anymore, andit's not good. It's it's that
balance between looking atsomething very serious and
intimate, but with a littleperspective. You can see it in a
fresh way that might make youlaugh. Laughter is so great.

(44:55):
It's and I just love it. I don'tlike I worked for Comedy Central
on a show for a while, and theidea of having to make people
laugh, don't like, and I'm notgood at it. I don't like the
feeling of someone, like whenthey start, here's a joke. Don't
wanna have to laugh at this, but

Cathy (45:09):
kind

of when being led along, being told a story about
people or people I care aboutand their quirks and how hard it
is to be alive, to me, it'sfunny. I guess that's sort of my
ultimate thing is I wannacapture the the weird how how
funny and hard and scary at thesame time it is being alive.

(45:33):
It's just this strange, bizarre,formless thing, and it's
hilarious at the

Merry (45:38):
Are same now, you writing I hope?

Yeah. I'm writing it. Well, that's this new
musical I'm working on is isvery much that. Yes.

Cathy (45:46):
Love more. Love more.

Yeah. It's

Cathy (45:50):
Yeah. I can't wait.

It's about this you know, it's basically about
the the end of the world, andit's strangely funny. Not jokes,
not a bunch of silly jokes aboutOh, this is

Cathy (46:00):
not love war.

No, this is love war.

Cathy (46:03):
This is love war. Oh, okay. Yeah. Truthless

and It's about yes. It's the war, the Trojan
War that can end the world, endtheir world.

Cathy (46:11):
Oh, I'm gonna come to the opening night. I can't wait.

Oh, okay. You'll be there?

Merry (46:15):
Yes. I'll come

Cathy (46:15):
I'll come too. Yeah. We'll come together.

Okay. Two comes.

Cathy (46:20):
We'll a late boomers field trip.

Yay. That'd We'll be so much

Cathy (46:25):
be to the New York the New York opening.

Okay. Absolutely. I don't

Cathy (46:29):
to come to the

Merry (46:30):
New York opening. Here we come.

That'll be fancy. All right.

Merry (46:33):
So, Billy, talk about AI, what your thoughts are on that
and how it's impacting theartistic life Yeah.

Now it's so weird. AI is just freaky. I
don't have the answer about whatit's gonna be, but it's I don't
know. I was working on aproject, an animated project
recently that someone said theydidn't have much money, but they
could do it because theanimation would be done by AI.
In other words, we write ascript that says in the same
direction, she walks across adesert, and it comes up with a

(47:04):
girl walking across a desert,and if you don't like it, you
could change her, make herdarker or lighter or talk.
To me, this is just my opinion,not the official word of late
boomers, but it creeps me out.When I saw those characters made
by AI, they don't have a soul, Idon't think. That's how I feel.

(47:24):
You know, a year from now, AImight be correcting me and
saying, See, I do have a soul,jerk.

Merry (47:30):
You have to infuse it with soul.

Right. From what I've seen, AI is I don't think
it would replace animation orwriting or music composition. I
mean, great art, Beethoven, willit ever do something that
refreshing and new? I can'timagine it, but then maybe I'm
old, and so what do I know?

Cathy (47:54):
Yeah, because people are using young people are using it
to build new businesses andcreate new things, so you never
know where it's gonna go.

Well, sometimes when I used to Google a
question, I now find that it'sgoing to AI, and you know, the
answer's pretty good, but I willstill then go further down and
Google and see what an actualhuman's if these facts came from
humans at some point. Don'tthink most people do that,
though.

Merry (48:17):
You ever use it in your writing?

No. I have never written using AI. I did, for
fun, I was making a pitch.Actually, the pitch for the I
needed a blurb, a one sentenceor one paragraph blurb for our
musical, and some Broadwayproducer said, Just run it
through AI. See what they say.
For a Broadway musical with thisstory, what would it say? And I,

(48:40):
you know, again, I I just don'tthink it would say anything
useful to me. It said what ageneric machine would say. Is it
gonna pitch a If you want topitch a show, it's got to be
original. You want to surprisesomeone with your humanity and
be funny and shock them.
People want something new. Why

Cathy (49:00):
But pick something that's then AI, you can say make it
new, make it funny, and it willadjust everything, so you never
know. Yeah.

I don't know. That's true. I do not know.

Cathy (49:10):
We don't know what we don't know.

I don't know what

Merry (49:13):
I We don't don't know.

In fact, what I do know, I don't even know most
of anymore. But we learn itfrequently. Yeah.

Merry (49:21):
I feel the same way.

Cathy (49:23):
And, Billy, did we miss anything you wanted to discuss?
And also, tell us what you'dlike our listeners to have as a
takeaway today.

Wow. Well, I hope people get my book. That is if
you can get it out of my headabout learning to affect people,
to reach people through thearts. That's how I did it, and
it's a lot. Mean, takes on alldifferent topics.
So I write a lot, for example,about anxiety and depression,
just dealing with that, or aboutwriting for television, for

(49:53):
children's television, aboutreinventing yourself, etcetera,
redefining your mission. So ifany part of it is interesting to
you, maybe it'd be worthchecking it out. And also,
there's a lot more aboutJonathan Morrison. I know he has
fans out there, the guy whowrote Wren. So and you can get
it on Amazon or Barnes andNoble, and other than that, you
guys have done an amazing job oftalking about everything that I

(50:14):
would want to talk about, andthen some.
So

Cathy (50:17):
Oh, okay.

I can't think of anything that I that you have
that you missed.

Cathy (50:21):
Oh, know, there is one there is one thing I think we Go
ahead. You mentioned raising afamily. Did you raise a while
you were doing the arts allthrough this?

It's hard. That's a great question. Yeah, and
that's a challenge. In fact,that sort of dictated why I did
not want to keep doing showsthat were not gonna get made
when we were working on Rent,because my wife was moving to
New York to be with me fromBoston. She had a great job up
there, and she So I reallywanted to make it worth her
time, make it worth her while,and make her proud of me, and

(50:55):
make an income that would allowus to have a couple kids.
Is I that what

Cathy (51:00):
you have? You have two children?

Yeah, they're 31 and 33, but they're still kids,
Yeah, of course,

Cathy (51:05):
of course.

But, so at that point, I started writing for TV
a lot, and while while stilldoing my theater, which was
hard, but I and you can make aliving in the arts. In fact, I I
write about that in the book.Using your craft, there are lots
of ways to make money. Mhmm.

Cathy (51:21):
So wow. That message. I love that message. Thank

Merry (51:23):
you. Do too. I have I have one question about your
kids, though. Are they in thearts too?

They're wise. So they're both artists. My son is
an amazing jazz player, but hehas a real job in branding, and
my daughter also does a comedyat night in Chicago. She does
improv comedy, but she teachesfull time during the day, which
is a lot of acting. She teachessecond graders.

(51:51):
So they both have reallycreative, cool jobs. My son's
job is he can do branding usingmusic. He creates a sound for
our company. So they found waysto mix the arts and life and
have stable lives and greatpartners, romantic partners, and
so I'm very proud of them.

Cathy (52:09):
Oh, bravo.

Merry (52:10):
Oh, yeah. That's terrific. Wow.

Cathy (52:12):
Yeah. Thank you.

Merry (52:13):
Well, we're looking forward to hearing more from
you, Billy, and to seeing yournew play and to reading your
book out of my head.

Great. And don't forget, the opening night on
Broadway, you guys are gonna bethere. Right?

Merry (52:25):
Yeah. We will be there.

Something sparkly. Okay. Good.

Cathy (52:28):
Okay. I will.

Merry (52:28):
Absolutely. Sequins and bright colors. How's that?

I want that. Good. I'll look for the
sequence.

Merry (52:34):
Alright. Thank you, Billy. Guest today on Late
Boomers has been playwright andlyricist Billy Aronson. Billy's
website and links to all hissongs and press is Billy Aronson
dot com. And next week, we willbring you another exciting
guest.
Thank you so much, Billy. You'rethe best.

Cathy (52:56):
Thank you for listening to our late boomers podcast and
subscribing to our late boomerspodcast channel on YouTube.
Listen in next week when you'llmeet another exciting guest,
songwriter Dennis Welch. You canlisten to Late Boomers on any
podcast platform and look at ournew website, lateboomers.us,
where you could find all ourepisodes and descriptions of

(53:19):
them. Please follow us onInstagram at I am Kathy
Worthington and at I am MaryElkins. And at late boomers,
thanks again to Billy Aronson.

Woo hoo. Thank you.

Cathy (53:41):
Thank you for joining us on late boomers, the podcast
that is your guide to creating athird act with style, power, and
impact. Please visit our websiteand get in touch with us at late
boomers dot us. If you wouldlike to listen to or download
other episodes of late boomers,go to ewnpodcastnetwork.com.

Merry (54:05):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcast, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.

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.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}From Broadway's "Rent" to TV's Emmys: Behind the Curtain with Billy Aronson

Episode Transcript

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From Broadway's "Rent" to TV's Emmys: Behind the Curtain with Billy Aronson

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