March 5, 2025 • 49 mins
How did a Wall Street career lead to an art empire? What’s the secret to overcoming doubts and building a thriving creative business? In Episode 230 of Late Boomers, Cathy and Merry sit down with Miriam Schulman, an art business coach, podcast host, and author, to uncover her inspiring journey from finance to fine art. Miriam shares her "belief triad" for success, debunks money myths, and reveals why email marketing trumps social media. Plus, get her top tips on pricing art and building a personal brand.
Miriam Schulman
Miriam Schulman is an artist and founder of The Inspiration Place. Through her online classes, business coaching programs, and popular podcast, she’s helped thousands of artists around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love by teaching them how to go from "so-so" sales to "sold-out" collections.
After witnessing 9/11, she left a lucrative hedge fund job to focus on her art full time. Since then, Miriam and her art have been featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, What Women Create, Art of Man, Professional Artist magazine, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC’s “Parenthood” and the Amazon series “Hunters” with Al Pacino. You'll find her best-selling book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, The Step by Step Guide to Making a Sustainable Living as an Artist, wherever books are sold.
When not working in her studio, she splits her time between New York City and a farmhouse in the country.
Connect with Miriam
Miriam's book: Artpreneur: The Step-by-Step Guide to Making a Sustainable Living From Your Creativity
Miriam's podcast: The Inspiration Place (SchulmanArt.com/iTUNES)
Website: https://www.schulmanart.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@schulmanart
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/schulmanart/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/schulmanart/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Miriam Schulman (00:01):
This is the EWN podcast network.
Cathy Worthington (00:14):
Welcome to Late Boomers, our podcast guide
to creating your third act withstyle, power, and impact. Hi.
I'm Kathy Worthington.
Merry Elkins (00:24):
And I'm Mary Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations with successfulentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.
Cathy Worthington (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you
along for the ride on eachinterview, recounting the
journey our guests have taken toget where they are, inspiring
you to create your own path tosuccess. Let's get started.
Hi. I'm Cathy Worthington. Welcome to the Late
Boomers podcast. For you artistsand creatives of all ages
(00:58):
listening today, my co host MaryElkins and I have a great guest
for you to meet, Miriam Shulman,art business coach, host of the
Inspiration Place podcast, andauthor of the step by step guide
to making a sustainable livingfrom your creativity.
Merry Elkins (01:18):
And that's the book, and I'm Mary Elkins.
Maryam has helped thousands ofartists around the world develop
their skill sets and growthriving art businesses art
businesses so they can have thetime and freedom to do what they
love. Welcome, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman (01:33):
Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's such an
honor to be here.
Merry Elkins (01:36):
It's great to have you. Nice.
Cathy Worthington (01:40):
Please tell us about your background and
some of the obstacles you facedand what led you to pursue your
art full time.
Miriam Schulman (01:48):
Okay. So ever since I was in the fourth grade,
I wanted to be an artist, butlike many girls, I was told or
many people, I was told, well,you can't make a living that
way. And I believed them. Sowhen I went to college, and I
was a financial aid student, soI didn't have the luxury of
(02:09):
doing something that I didn'tbelieve could support me. I took
the practical route, and I wentto work on Wall Street.
Woah. How however, when nineeleven happened, I knew I
couldn't go back to that world,and I decided that I would do
something different with mylife. So I wasn't quite sure
(02:31):
what that was at first. Ipainted on the side because I
still didn't believe I couldmake a full time living from my
art. I knew I wanted to do it,but I didn't believe I could
make money that way.
And I took a job at firstteaching Pilates at a gym. When
I was working for the gym, theytaught me selling strategies to
(02:53):
offer personal training packagesbecause these upsells are a big
income source for for for gyms.And it was then that I had my
moments that these sellingstrategies could be used to sell
anything, including art. Andthat's when I dedicated myself,
(03:14):
not not to the gym, but toselling my portraits.
Cathy Worthington (03:19):
Oh, that was your moment.
Miriam Schulman (03:22):
Yeah. Well, there was the wake up call of
09:11, and many of us havesimilar moments in our lives.
Sometimes it's a global event,09:11, the pandemic. Sometimes
it's an illness, a divorce, adeath of a loved one that wakes
us up to how precious life isand what is it that we're gonna
(03:45):
do with our lives.
Merry Elkins (03:47):
Yeah. So true.
Cathy Worthington (03:48):
We started our podcast during COVID, you
know, and and that was whenremote, recordings like this
were just not so commonplace.Now they are, but, you know, you
we had a way to reach out andwent for it.
Merry Elkins (04:05):
We sure did. We just went for it. A lot of
people don't go for it. Theyhave great ideas, but they don't
do anything about it. You didthat, Miriam, which is that's
why things happen.
But I have a question, about youwere talking about not believing
that you could do it or you weretold that you couldn't do it. Is
that something that couldsabotage someone's success and
(04:29):
artists especially, artistsespecially, their success?
Miriam Schulman (04:34):
Yeah. It's not just artists. My book,
Artpreneur, is directed towardscreative people. And by artists,
I don't just mean painters. Itcan be anyone in a creative
field, but really any creativeentrepreneur.
There, there is a lot of socialconditioning that is at play,
especially, as you mentioned,for artists, but also for women.
(04:55):
We're told not to take up space.And we're given that message
both explicitly and implicitlythrough the diet industry,
you're supposed to be small. Ifyou I live in New York City, so
I see, men and women riding thesubways. The men have their legs
splayed out, the women aresitting all cross legged,
they're trying not to even takeup physical room with their
(05:17):
bodies.
So being given the message thatyou shouldn't desire sex and
money has an impact on how webuild our businesses. And then
as you said, Mary, many peoplehave ideas, but they talk
themselves out of it.
Merry Elkins (05:33):
Wow.
Miriam Schulman (05:34):
And what happens, it happens on a
subconscious level. Some of itis the external programming, but
a lot of it really is our ownour own brain survival mechanism
because we have as humans havesurvived our brains have evolved
for survival, not goalachievement. So anytime we're
(05:57):
going to do something that makesthat's new, that makes us feel
uncomfortable, our brain's gonnacome up with all kinds of
reasons why it's a terribleidea. And the smarter you are
and the, more creative you are,the better you'll be at coming
up with all those reasons. Andthis is also, of course, then
where social conditioning isgonna come into play because
(06:20):
those could play into yoursubconscious reasoning.
So you have you wanna dosomething, but it caused you
fear either on a conscious orunconscious level. That leads to
doubts whether this is going towork. Those leads to those
stories. And what happens nextis you're either going to go
into procrastal learning modebecause you have to figure it
(06:40):
all out because that way youwon't fail or you wallow in
confusion and overwhelm. Deer inthe headlights.
I don't know what to do. Buteither way, that generally will
tend to lead towardsprocrastination or not taking
the steps to do those greatideas that you have. So it is
not your fault if that's you.Mhmm. The three of us are not
(07:02):
any aren't special.
We just kind of push past thatand did it anyway of what our
what what our dreams were.
Cathy Worthington (07:11):
Right. Well, you know, you talk a little bit
about the belief triad. So whatis that and how does it help
raise our money mindset?
Miriam Schulman (07:21):
Okay. This is I love the belief triad. So if you
followed any kind of selfdevelopment, you've heard you
gotta believe in yourself. We'veall heard that. We've heard you
gotta believe in what you do.
That's two parts, your belief inyourself, belief in your art or
what you do. The third part ofthe belief triad really is
(07:43):
critical, and that is belief inyour audience or your customer,
and that's where people willsabotage themselves the most. In
my book, Artpreneur, I use ananalogy with the movie Pretty
Woman, and you've both have seenit, right?
Cathy Worthington (08:00):
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (08:00):
Seen it? Yeah. Okay. My friends like to tease
me that my book is for women ofa certain age, you know? Well My
references are from thenineties.
Okay.
Cathy Worthington (08:09):
So watch that too.
Miriam Schulman (08:11):
Yeah. So right. Right. Alright. So but just to
refresh everyone's memory,there's that scene where Julia
Roberts, goes to Rodeo Drive tobuy some clothes.
Mhmm. She has Richard Gere's gokart, but but those mean
salespeople won't wait on her.Mhmm. Now a lot of us think when
we're in business that we're notthat mean sales per person, but
(08:34):
how many times have we thoughtto ourselves, she doesn't have
the money. She won't pay.
This is probably too expensivefor her. You offer discount
before they say yes or no.That's what a lack of belief in
your customer actually lookslike. You're being that mean
sales lady, not on purpose, butthat's what's happening. So
(08:57):
that's how you end up sabotagingyour sales.
And if you have uncertaintyabout your buyer, they will pick
up on that. Now that could beuncertainty you have about
yourself, but any kind ofuncertainty they're going to
pick up on and it's repellent.The kind of energy you need when
you're in business, especiallywhen you're selling, is you need
(09:18):
that confident energy to attractand make people feel comfortable
about buying from you.
Cathy Worthington (09:26):
Oh, I'm buying a little bit about the
money mindset. And what's what'sthe triad?
Miriam Schulman (09:33):
Okay. So the triad is there's three things,
belief in your art or what youdo. So what you do could be you
sell website design. It could bethat you are a therapist. It
could be that you whatever it isthat there's belief in yourself,
belief in what you do, andbelief in your customer.
(09:56):
The customer is the third piece.
Cathy Worthington (09:58):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (09:58):
So that is the triad.
Cathy Worthington (10:00):
Yeah. I didn't quite understand. What
words and phrases should peoplestop saying in order to raise
their money mindset or get intothis triad?
Miriam Schulman (10:10):
Okay. So, it's less about getting into the
triad, but but some things thatwe tell ourselves and we say it
like we're the facts and it's aknee jerk response, but it
really lowers your moneymindset. The number one thing I
think that we should alleliminate from our vocabulary is
stop saying I can't afford thator it's too expensive.
Merry Elkins (10:30):
Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (10:31):
Tell yourself the truth. The truth is I choose
not to buy that or I choose notto make that a priority at this
time. But when you constantlyare saying, I don't have money,
Merry Elkins (10:45):
then you don't have money.
Miriam Schulman (10:46):
Like right. And and it's, like, I can't afford
that. It's it's not probably noteven true. Like, okay, it's a
hundred dollars more than maybewhat you want to pay. The truth
is you don't choose toprioritize buying that thing at
this time.
I choose not to, not that youdon't have the money. So that,
that's a very powerful thing to,to watch yourself and reframe
(11:10):
that.
Cathy Worthington (11:11):
Yeah. I like that.
Merry Elkins (11:12):
Any other phrases or words?
Miriam Schulman (11:16):
Yeah. The I so I can't afford. It's too much
money. So the I don't have moneyis is one of them. I can't
afford that as well.
Is that really true? And is ittoo expensive? Well, maybe it
is, maybe it isn't. Maybe youjust don't feel comfortable
spending that, that's okay, butthat doesn't make it too
(11:38):
expensive.
Merry Elkins (11:38):
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (11:38):
And the reason why it's important to be careful
with these with these with thesephrases is because if you're
offering something for sale andyou're always labeling these
other things as too expensiveand you can't afford it, you
will think that's what yourcustomer's thinking about you.
Merry Elkins (11:54):
Mhmm. Good point. You know, Yeah. For sure.
Talking about the belief triad,a lot of it has to do with
trust.
Doesn't it trust in yourself? Somany people don't trust
themselves to actuallyaccomplish what they'd like to
accomplish. How do you feelabout that?
Miriam Schulman (12:12):
Yeah. Mary, that's a really great point that
you you brought up. So earlier,I said that if you are feeling
unsure about any part of theprocess yourself, your art, or
your customer, that belieftriad, you're going to repel. So
you need to feel confident. Sohow do you gain confidence?
I love to tell the story aboutone of my clients, in the in the
(12:34):
book Entrepreneur, I called herMargaret. Not her real name,
real person, but not her realname, of course. And Margaret
came to me and she said, youknow, I know that I'm supposed
to do these things that we weretalking about, but I
procrastinate. And I says, well,why do you think that is? And
she says, well, it's because I Idon't have good confidence.
(12:54):
I said, no. It's the other wayaround. You lack confidence
because you procrastinate. So ifyou look at the definition of
self confidence in thedictionary, it actually says
trustworthiness. Oh.
Self trust in a person or athing. So every time you don't
(13:16):
do what you say you're gonna do,it erodes that confidence. And
every time you do what you sayyou're gonna do, like you you
Kathy and Mary, how you startsaid you're gonna start this
podcast and you did it, itincreases your confidence.
Merry Elkins (13:32):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (13:34):
It does. I get it. That really makes sense.
Merry Elkins (13:38):
So people don't often use the word artist and
entrepreneur in the samesentence. Can you give us
pointers on how artists canbecome entrepreneurs and maybe a
few steps that would empowerthem to do so?
Miriam Schulman (13:54):
Yeah. The very first thing is and this is why I
called, my first chapter chooseto believe. So remember how we
started this whole conversation?I said, I wanted to be an
artist. I just didn't believethat that was possible.
So the very first thing that youshould do if you wanna become an
artist, or really if you wannado anything in the world, is
(14:16):
declare that identity. Andthat's why I started Artpreneur
with a quote by Oprah WinfreyYeah. Which is and I'm just
gonna just read it word for wordbecause Please. It's not worth
paraphrasing it. Every time youstate what you want or believe,
you're the first to hear it.
(14:37):
It's a message to both you andothers about what you think is
possible.
Merry Elkins (14:43):
Oh, I love that.
Miriam Schulman (14:45):
So for somebody who wants to make it as an
artist, I tell them, telleverybody you know. I am an
artist and claim that identity.It's a way for you to articulate
what you do to the world and tonot second guess yourself and
and keep away from impostersyndrome. But I give that
(15:05):
advice, Kathy and Mary, to anywoman who is looking to step
into a new new role. I am apodcaster.
I am I am a, clothing designer.I am a whatever it is. Tell
everybody you know who you are.Make it true for yourself.
Merry Elkins (15:27):
That's true. I am a writer. I am an expert.
Miriam Schulman (15:30):
Writer. I'm a exactly.
Cathy Worthington (15:33):
Mhmm. Yeah. That's such a good piece of
advice, and it's so hard toactually do that, to step out of
your comfort zone and tellsomebody that if you haven't
been labeling yourself as thatbefore. Yeah. You know, somebody
that's been quietly painting artand keeping it in the closet and
doesn't even mention it.
(15:55):
And then to start callingthemself an artist to other
people must be so
Miriam Schulman (16:01):
hard. So hard and so empowering once they
start start. So I got a messagethe other day from a new client.
I think she's in her latefifties, and she said she's been
telling each of her friends oneby one. And at first, it was so
hard, and now she's unstoppable.
Like, it has been so empoweringjust to be able to start
(16:25):
declaring that to everyone.
Merry Elkins (16:28):
And in a way, it's a promise to yourself that you
have to do it because all theseother people it's a total
commitment because all thesepeople are expecting you to do
it. Mhmm.
Cathy Worthington (16:40):
Yeah. And how important is it for social to
have social media for artistswho wanna sell their work?
Miriam Schulman (16:48):
Well, here's where I get to be a little bit
controversial because I havesome opinions about that. Okay.
So when I first started writingArtpreneur, the average
engagement rate was one percent.So I was writing Artpreneur in
2022. And by the time I went toedit that chapter, the average
(17:13):
engagement rate had dropped to0.6%.
And let's just be very clearwhat that means. That means out
of a thousand people, only sixpeople will be engaging with
you. That's what point 6% is.Okay? Not 60%, not 6%, zero
point six %.
(17:33):
Now we're in 2025. Theengagement rate on Instagram has
dropped to 0.4%. And for allthose influencers, the people
who you're seeing who wannateach you how to increase their
your engagement rate if you justpay them money and do what they
(17:53):
say, Well, their engagement rateis also less than 1%. It's
better than point 4%, but it'slike maybe point seven. So that
is why social media is not animportant part of your business
strategy.
And anyone who's been relying onit, like the TikTokers, had a
(18:15):
wake up call this month when itwas almost banned. So then the
question is, what's thealternative? So that is why I
encourage everyone who's inbusiness to build an email list.
Cathy Worthington (18:32):
Oh, yeah.
Miriam Schulman (18:33):
The average open rate for an email list is
between 2550% and that's evenstill true in 2025. Email
marketing is the cockroach ofmarketing, you can't get rid of
it, it is not debt. Oh. So evenif we use that low number, 24%,
(18:56):
don't worry, I've done the math,I'm very good at math. So if you
want to get the same resultswith email marketing as
Instagram, you would need 6,000followers on Instagram to get
the same number of people to tosee what it is you're posting as
a hundred people as emailsubscribers.
(19:20):
So which is easier, getting ahundred email subscribers or
6,000 Instagram followers?
Merry Elkins (19:29):
Mhmm. Good point.
Cathy Worthington (19:30):
I'm not sure because for podcasters, I'm not
sure how podcasters build anemail. I guess we have to offer
something.
Miriam Schulman (19:38):
Right. So right now
Cathy Worthington (19:39):
offer something.
Miriam Schulman (19:40):
Here is how I do it. If you're listening to
this podcast and you want achapter of my free a chapter of
my book, go to schulmanart.comforward slash believe.
Cathy Worthington (19:52):
Mhmm. And
Miriam Schulman (19:52):
you put your name and your email, and I will
send you a free chapter. Sothat's how I do it for to get
people to then join my emaillist. And then every week,
whenever I have
Merry Elkins (20:03):
a new
Miriam Schulman (20:03):
podcast, I send it out in my email.
Merry Elkins (20:08):
Interesting. Right.
Cathy Worthington (20:10):
What can we learn from famous artists of the
past, like Matisse, about howhow artists can sell their work?
Miriam Schulman (20:17):
Oh, that's it. I love this question. Okay. So,
there were two sisters whocollected lots of art who lived
in Baltimore, Maryland, and thiswas at the turn of the century.
They were uber, uber rich.
Their family had, made cottonthat was sold to Levi Strauss to
(20:40):
make jeans and also made theuniforms of World War one. So
they had a lot of money, andthey used their money to buy
art. They could buy any art inthe world that they wanted. The
younger the sisters, the one whopassed away last, bequeathed her
collection to the Baltimore ArtMuseum. And in it, there were
(21:04):
700 Matisses, and only a hundredPicassos.
Merry Elkins (21:10):
Only.
Miriam Schulman (21:11):
Now she could have bought any art she wanted,
and this was not when Picassowasn't more expensive than
Matisse. It had nothing to dowith that, by the way. Okay. So
the reason why she bought somany more Matisse's was because
he used to write her letters.Oh.
So he would write her letterssaying, here's the art I'm
(21:33):
working on. I think you wouldlike this. What can we do now in
2025 that's like writingletters?
Cathy Worthington (21:41):
Email. Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.
Ding.
Miriam Schulman (21:43):
Yes. Writing emails.
Merry Elkins (21:46):
I love that. Letters do work, and especially
personal handwritten ones.
Miriam Schulman (21:52):
They do still work. So one of the things that
I do tell my clients is inaddition to the emails is to
send postcards to their bestcollectors and clients in
Cathy Worthington (22:03):
the
Miriam Schulman (22:03):
mail, because there's no spam filter on your
front door.
Merry Elkins (22:09):
Ah, that's true. Is that one way an artist can
build a signature brand?
Miriam Schulman (22:16):
Yeah. Well, a a signature brand is more about
your reputation. So it's morethan just your colors and your
logos. It's really what peoplesay about you when you're not
around. So building a signaturebrand is really about being real
and honest and authentic andtelling stories.
(22:36):
Because right now, we're livingin the world of AI, and just
putting out words that a robotcan put out isn't going to do it
anymore. So people wanna hearfrom you. They want your
stories. And like you werehinting at, Mary, they want, you
know, a physical thing that theycan touch. Maybe you signed it,
(22:58):
wrote a personal note on it.
Anything that you can do topersonalize the experience, make
them feel like they really knowyou. No matter how big your
business is, it will grow biggerbecause of that.
Merry Elkins (23:12):
And it makes them feel important too because
you've taken the time to writeto them.
Cathy Worthington (23:18):
Yes. I have a question. What are the five most
common mistakes people make whenthey're creating and selling
their art and their services.
Miriam Schulman (23:30):
Okay. Alright. So let's start with, a few of
them we've already touched on.Mhmm. But one of them is that
cheaper the belief or the myththat cheaper is easier to sell,
and it's not.
So I'm gonna give you somedifferent examples. Would you
(23:51):
hire the cheapest babysitter foryour child or your grandchild?
Cathy Worthington (23:59):
Probably not. But,
Miriam Schulman (24:01):
if I really would. If you it depends if it
is. Right? If
Cathy Worthington (24:06):
the best. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (24:08):
Sometimes. Right? Okay.
Cathy Worthington (24:10):
Grandma. Grandma.
Miriam Schulman (24:11):
Grandma. We all know about that. But what about
your furry pet? If your petneeded surgery that would extend
its life for another five yearsand your vet told you it's gonna
be $2,000, are you gonna lookfor the vet who only charges a
hundred $90?
Merry Elkins (24:32):
No. No. Mm-mm.
Miriam Schulman (24:36):
Or if you needed plastic surgery, you're
not looking for the cheapest?
Merry Elkins (24:42):
No. Looking for the best.
Miriam Schulman (24:46):
Yeah. So our customers are not looking for
the cheapest either. Whatthey're looking for is what's
known as reassuringly expensive.
Cathy Worthington (24:59):
Reassuringly expensive. Good.
Merry Elkins (25:02):
I have to write that down. I like that.
Cathy Worthington (25:06):
I mean, how do we think? Otherwise, nobody
would buy designer watches.Everybody buys very expensive
watches.
Miriam Schulman (25:14):
That's a good one. So I I did not talk about
designer watches and my book,Artpreneur, because the
publisher thought I wouldalienate readers. So if I talk
about designer watches Oh, youare
Cathy Worthington (25:25):
actually going to, but that's how
Miriam Schulman (25:27):
you do it. I I am not a consumer. This Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (25:31):
That's how those things got so big.
Miriam Schulman (25:33):
Well, I mean, but look at men. It's like, you
know, they men especially, theylove their expensive watches
even more than women do.
Merry Elkins (25:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (25:41):
So you could not sell a Rolex watch on eBay
for $47. You couldn't. Youcouldn't do it. Nobody would
believe it's real. And even ifyou tried asking $400, they
still wouldn't buy it.
So when I was researching thispart of the book that never made
it into the book, I went to aused jeweler in my town, to see
(26:03):
what they were charging for usedRolexes, and their cheapest used
Rolex was $6,000, which was moremoney than what it cost to buy a
brand new one online. I mean, Iknow they're all over. The
prices are all over the place.
Merry Elkins (26:17):
Time. Definitely. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (26:19):
Yes. But the reason why is because the
jeweler understood that he hadto price it that high so people
would believe that it was real,that if he priced it too low
that he would lose the sale.
Cathy Worthington (26:31):
Mhmm. Mhmm. I think it's funny I thought of
watches. I mean, maybe just
Miriam Schulman (26:35):
Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (26:36):
Because it then you were researching
watches.
Miriam Schulman (26:38):
Well, because it's one of those things that
gets a high price tag or, like,a designer bag. Like, why? You
know, why is this so expensive?It it's and there's there's
something called a Veblen good,which people actually it's named
after the economist Veblen,where people will actually pay,
(26:59):
want to pay more. They desire itmore because of a high price,
like a Birkin bag or a veryexpensive watch.
Those are examples or a Tesla.
Cathy Worthington (27:11):
I'm gonna have to hit on some other do we
need some more mistakes peoplemake in creating and selling?
Miriam Schulman (27:18):
Yeah. I mean, we talked about the idea of,
procrastinal learning because,you know, your brain gets in the
way. And we talked about socialmedia. That's a big one. People
believe that they just need abigger audience.
They think that's their problemwhen, really, the problem is
that they're trying to sellcheap things at a volume. So a
(27:40):
lot of times people have aproblem, but they misdiagnosed
the problem. Like, oh, I onlyneed a bigger social media
following. No. No.
You you really actually onlyneed to raise your prices or use
email or use publicity. So,usually, it's it's a
misdiagnosis of what theirproblem is, and I do walk you
through all five of those commonproblems in in my book.
Merry Elkins (28:02):
Yeah. So you use PR publicity.
Miriam Schulman (28:04):
Oh, of course. Why why am I here?
Merry Elkins (28:08):
That's true. Why are you doing the podcast?
Exactly. Well, talk as long aswe're talking about that, talk
about your book, Artpreneur.
Miriam Schulman (28:18):
Thank you. So, I wrote the book to recenter
women in both the art world andthe business world. And by
recentering, it doesn't meanthis book isn't for men. It's
just that I'm inclusive in whatI'm talking about in the book.
So the book, it does have lotsof women, people from different
(28:40):
backgrounds, differentreligions.
And I I felt it was it's hardenough to believe that you can
do something like become anartist that is important to show
examples of what's possible nomatter who you are or what you
look
Merry Elkins (28:56):
like. Well, you talk about marketing diseases in
your book. What what is that?What are they?
Miriam Schulman (29:03):
We'll we'll pick one. Okay. So, one of the
one that I talk about isSleeping Beauty Complex.
Merry Elkins (29:12):
Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (29:12):
And in the Disney movie Sleeping Beauty,
the fairies, one of the the evilfairy says she pricks her
finger. She's gonna die orwhatever, fall into a sleep. I I
forget the exact details. Butthe fairies then the other
fairies are gonna hide her awayin the woods. And the next time
you see Sleeping Beauty, youknow, she's this beautiful grown
(29:36):
up woman.
You don't see the braces. Youdon't see the glasses. You don't
see the pimples. You don't see,you know, any of that puberty
nonsense. Okay.
Now many of us want ourbusinesses to be like that. We
wanna keep it hidden away andnot take it out when it's going
(29:56):
through that adolescent stage.We wanna wait till it's perfect.
Oh. The I'm not ready yet.
Merry Elkins (30:03):
I'm guilty of that.
Miriam Schulman (30:05):
Oh, many of us are. This is why I talk about
it. Many of us are guilty ofthat, and we wanted our to be a
grown up business before we takeit out into the world. But it
really needs to go through thatwhole you have to love I call it
you have to love your baby now.So, Kathy and Mary, it's just
like with your podcast.
I'm sure the podcast now is alot different than it was in
(30:27):
2020.
Merry Elkins (30:28):
Totally. Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (30:30):
Okay. And it's gone through a lot. You know,
it's grown up since then. It'sgrown up in five years. Could
you imagine if you didn't wannabring it out in 2020 because it
was just this baby podcast?
Cathy Worthington (30:41):
Yeah. We didn't know what we were doing,
so we did it anyway.
Merry Elkins (30:45):
Right. Right.
Miriam Schulman (30:45):
You're not supposed to. It's okay.
Merry Elkins (30:49):
Yeah. You know, men do that too. Men just go
they don't do the sleepingbeauty contest. They just
believe in themselves and theyjust go for it, often when they
don't even know what they'redoing.
Miriam Schulman (31:00):
Yeah, they actually have statistics that
back up what you're saying sothat, women, before they apply
for a job, have will have willthink they have to meet a % of
the criteria, whereas men willapply for a job even if they
only meet 60% of the criteria.So they actually have statistics
(31:20):
to back up exactly what you'resaying.
Merry Elkins (31:23):
And probably they get hired. They probably do.
Miriam Schulman (31:28):
Well, it's what we've talked about earlier.
Confidence is magnetic.
Merry Elkins (31:32):
You are so right. Talk about another marketing
disease.
Miriam Schulman (31:37):
Rapunzel style marketing. So they're all
they're all, like Treasure.
Merry Elkins (31:42):
I love the way you do that with fairy tales.
Miriam Schulman (31:45):
Yes. So what does Rapunzel do? Rapunzel's up
in her tower waiting for thecustomers to come to her. So
that is what Rapunzel stylemarketing is. And sometimes, I I
see artists who well, they havea website, but they don't have
sales.
And I'm like, yeah. You'rewaiting for the fish to jump
into your boat. I mean, you haveto go out, and and that's what
(32:10):
marketing is. You have to go outand look for them. So Rapunzel
style marketing is you thinkthings just happen to you.
You just wait for something tosomebody to rescue you.
Merry Elkins (32:19):
It doesn't. It's not fate?
How about another one?
Cathy Worthington (32:23):
Characters? You have a Mickey Mouse one? No.
I don't. Another scary princessone?
Miriam Schulman (32:32):
You know, there's one that I talk about
not in my book, but I've beentalking about a lot. I don't
think I made it into the book.But Moana, the the little
Hawaiian girl. So the story ofthat one your your grandmother,
so you both have seen that one?
Cathy Worthington (32:51):
I'm not a grandmother. I I see everything
animated anyway.
Miriam Schulman (32:54):
Oh, you do? Did you see the movie Flow, by the
way?
Merry Elkins (32:57):
I heard about it. I hear you.
Miriam Schulman (32:59):
I saw that by mistake with my husband the
other night. We wanted to seeanother movie, and we walked
into the wrong theater. And,like, fifteen minutes into it,
my husband says,
Merry Elkins (33:07):
I don't think this is the preview. You know? Like
Cathy Worthington (33:14):
And you loved it?
Miriam Schulman (33:16):
Yes. Yes. It's animated. No talking. Just
calming music and animals.
Cathy Worthington (33:24):
Well, then you'll love the wild robot. The
wild robot is fabulous. Like,that I
Miriam Schulman (33:30):
will write that down.
Cathy Worthington (33:31):
Story. Great story. Hardly any dialogue.
Beautiful animation music.
Miriam Schulman (33:36):
So back to Moana.
Cathy Worthington (33:37):
Yeah. Marketing Moana.
Miriam Schulman (33:40):
The story or the theme there, it to just to
for people listeners who whodidn't see the movie, is they
had this beautiful enchantedisland, and it suddenly is not
abundant anymore. And whathappened was there was this
goddess who had lost her heart.And then I'm this is a spoiler
(34:01):
alert. So if you don't wannaknow how Moana ends, you can
fast forward this part. Okay.
So they go out, and there's thislava monster. And it turned out
that the lava monster really isthe goddess without the heart.
And that's what a lot of usexperienced during the pandemic,
this feeling of losing ourcreativity and losing our heart.
(34:25):
And what happens when you losethat inner core is you become
burnt out, Creative burnout,which I see as being like the
lava monster. It's like youcan't create in that state.
Cathy Worthington (34:43):
Mhmm. Yeah. So
Miriam Schulman (34:44):
it's about being willing to refill the
creative well and nurture thatheart that you have.
Cathy Worthington (34:51):
And I was listening to a message on a
podcast the other day on the MelRobbins podcast. She had a guest
on that was explaining thatanxiety is a reverse of
creativity. Mhmm. So if you'refeeling this anxiety, it's
cutting off your creativity andcreativity can get rid of
anxiety. So that's aninteresting point too, that, you
(35:11):
know, your creativity can kindof save you from the spiral
you're going down.
Miriam Schulman (35:17):
Absolutely. So
Cathy Worthington (35:19):
if if we get anybody to encourage their
creativity today, this will be agood step. Tell us about your
podcast now and your onlineclasses. What is your podcast
called?
Miriam Schulman (35:34):
Well, if you like what you heard today, my
podcast is called TheInspiration Place, and it's for
you if you are in business oryou're creative or you want to
hear, more of our discussionsabout mindset, creativity, how
to keep yourself fromprocrastinating, how to keep
(35:56):
yourself from, perfectionism. Soall those things that hold us
back from growing into ourfullest, most evolved version of
ourselves.
Merry Elkins (36:08):
Awesome. What about your online glasses?
Miriam Schulman (36:12):
Yeah. I do right now, the only thing that I
have offer online is I coachartists, which are visual
artists on the business side ofbeing an artist. I do have a
free class for anyone who'slistening. It is how to sell
more art without beingInstafamous.
Cathy Worthington (36:32):
Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (36:33):
And you can access that class by going to
Schulman Art. Schulman is with ac, s c h u l m a n a r t,
schulman art dot com slashmaster class. Oh, sorry.
Schulmanart.com/sellmoreart. Allone word, sell more art.
Merry Elkins (36:57):
And that would go really not just for visual
artists, but artists andcreatives of all sorts.
Miriam Schulman (37:04):
Any kind of creative entrepreneur. It will
we'll touch upon the fiveproblems. One of them we talked
about in great depth today,which is about, pricing, but
they're in in my book,Artpreneur, there are five
foundations for building abusiness, and every problem
correlates to a solution. Soit's a production problem.
(37:28):
There's a production solution.
And the five areas areproduction, pricing,
prospecting, promotion, andproductivity.
Merry Elkins (37:37):
Well, we'd love to hear more about pricing, but I
wanna ask you about empathy andhow it leads a customer to
purchase something. You touchedon it a little bit, but let's
talk about it. What we all knowwell, maybe we don't know what
empathy is, but how do you useit in sales?
Miriam Schulman (37:57):
I'm really glad you asked that, Mary. And we did
touch upon it a little bit, butthe way I talk about it in
Entrepreneur is when you get anobjection. For example, we
talked about this earlier.Somebody says, I can't afford
that. What is really goingthrough their mind?
Merry Elkins (38:17):
You don't
Miriam Schulman (38:18):
believe it's too expensive. What's really
going through their mind? So ifI'm trying to sell a $5,000
painting to Kathy, Kathy isn'tnecessarily thinking whether
Miriam Shulman is worth 5,000,whether Miriam Shulman's
painting is worth 5,000. Kathy'sprobably worried about, is she
(38:42):
worth spending $5,000 on?
Cathy Worthington (38:45):
Oh.
Miriam Schulman (38:46):
That's why that belief triad is so important
because you have to believe inyour customer more than they
believe in themselves. I have tobelieve that Kathy is worth
spending $5,000 on.
Cathy Worthington (39:03):
How does an artist price their work then?
You mentioned charm pricing andprestige pricing. Okay. Find
that a little bit.
Miriam Schulman (39:12):
Okay. So charm pricing is
Cathy Worthington (39:17):
kind
Miriam Schulman (39:17):
of like Target or Walmart pricing. You walk
into any Target or Walmart, andeverything is $14.97 or
whatever. It's something dot 97.Store. It's a five pack.
You know, it's a package of ofunderwear, dollar 49 each. Now
(39:38):
the the idea of charm pricing ispricing something below the
decimal point, or it could benot below the decimal point, but
$497 instead of $500. With theidea of, not so much tricking
somebody, but the person willthink of it as $497. They will
(40:00):
think of it as being in the 4hundreds rather than rounding it
up. Now sometimes that is a goodthing to do, but not always.
That's where prestige pricingcomes in. Now prestige pricing,
it's not necessarily aboutpricing something higher. It's
about rounded numbers. Sopricing instead of for $14.97,
(40:22):
pricing it for $15. Instead of$4.97, pricing it for $500.
They did research on champagnewhere they priced the champagne
at $39, 40 dollars, and $41. Andthe $40 champagne sold the best.
(40:44):
And the reason why, theresearchers said, is because the
rounded numbers are processed bythe emotional side of the brain,
where these odd numbers, thesefourteen ninety seven, four 90
seven, four 90 nine, those offnumbers are processed by the
logical side of your brain.
Cathy Worthington (41:06):
Oh.
Miriam Schulman (41:06):
So if you're selling a luxury good like art,
which side of the brain do youwant your customer using? The
logical side or the emotionalside?
Merry Elkins (41:20):
Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (41:20):
Yeah. The emotional side every time. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (41:24):
Every time.
Merry Elkins (41:25):
Well, talking about pricing, how does an
artist price their own work? Imean, it could be you look at
it, you've worked hard on it,you've say you've never actually
stepped out, and now suddenlyyou have this gallery opening
because you've been painting allof these in the dark, shall I
say. You haven't stepped out.You have one of the marketing
(41:47):
diseases of Rapunzel. And so buthow do you put a value on your
own art?
And then you have been sayingthere's no money in the middle.
What do you mean by that?
Miriam Schulman (42:02):
Okay. So that's two different concepts and both
excellent questions. So, let'syou wanna let's tackle the
pricing first. So first of all,you're not gonna be Rapunzel up
in your tower. You will be likethose champagne researchers and
always bringing your art out andtesting it.
And if something is selling tooquickly, you need to raise your
(42:24):
prices. So, things should takelonger to sell. That is the
right way it should be. So toalways be testing higher prices,
I remember when I was sellingprints for a let you know, my a
good size, 11 by 14 for $68, andI thought that was the sweet
(42:46):
spot. They sold well.
And then one year because I'mteaching this all the time, and
so I'm like, well, let me testthat. And I raised the prices to
$75, and they sold better. Andthen I raised the prices to a
hundred dollars, and there wasno drop in sales. So I've seen
this happen over again with myclients as well. One of my
(43:08):
clients, Kayla, was reallyafraid that if she raised her
prices that she would lose herincome and but she was burnt out
as a vet tech.
She had two small boys, and shelived in Arkansas. So not in New
York City, not in a a wealthycommunity. And she was getting
$1,500 for her her, commissions,which is a lot, but I knew her
(43:35):
customers would pay more. So sheraised her price to $3,500, and
the same customer came back andbought it, and he didn't
complain about the higher price.Not only did he not complain,
but he bought the $3,500 canvasas well as two additional
artworks.
(43:55):
So she made so much more moneyjust by raising her prices, and
that makes a world ofdifference. 2,000 extra dollars,
that's life changing for asingle mom with two boys.
Merry Elkins (44:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, talk talk about the money in in
the middle. I'm I'm curious.There's no money there.
Miriam Schulman (44:15):
Okay. So this is about people pleasing. So
people pleasing, whether you'redoing it to your family or
you're doing it to yourcustomers, people pleasing, for
those who aren't familiar withthe term, it you you you
basically want to do what's mostpopular, what everybody wants.
And by by that, I'm not sayingyou shouldn't follow trends, but
(44:39):
we're if you're doing it just toplease people, so you don't want
to share your authentic self.You're afraid of who's gonna
judge you because maybe you'resingle, maybe you don't have
kids, maybe you're Jewish likeme.
So all these things you'reworried about. But what happens
is that people never really getto know you. So even though just
(45:04):
by my saying I'm Jewish rightnow, there's people here who who
listen, who that's gonna be abig turnoff for them. And that's
fine. I'll take that becausethere's gonna be people on the
other side who are gonna be, youknow, happy that I'm I'm brave
enough to say who I am.
Where there's no money is thepeople who are not willing to
share their true self, whateverthat is.
Cathy Worthington (45:27):
Whatever it
Miriam Schulman (45:27):
is that they're afraid of that's gonna turn
people off.
Merry Elkins (45:31):
Well, you do talk about embracing in your book, I
believe, embracing your innerweirdo. Can you talk on that a
little bit?
Miriam Schulman (45:40):
Yes. Okay. So, the word weird dates back
hundreds of years. So inShakespeare Macbeth, there were
the weird sisters, and weirddidn't mean the same thing it
means today. So weird actuallymeant magical or fate or
destiny.
And what happened is over thecenturies, as the supernatural
(46:02):
became vilified, the word weirdtook on a negative connotation.
So what I talk about in thatchapter, embrace your inner
weirdo, is those very thingsthat we think make us weird are
what makes us magical. That'swhat people want. They want to
(46:25):
see the real you. Even if youhave braces and glasses and
pimples and your business isstill a baby and you're still
figuring it out.
Cathy Worthington (46:35):
I get it. And, Miriam, what would you like
our audience to have as atakeaway to me?
Miriam Schulman (46:40):
Okay. So I'm gonna end today, with the final
words in the same way I endedthe book artpreneur, which is to
keep marching forward. So ifyou're not sure what direction
to go in, it doesn't matter. Ifyou go 10 steps in the wrong
direction, you'll learn a lotmore than marching in place or
(47:00):
staying still. And do not blameyour boots.
In other words, don't blame thecircumstances. Keep putting one
foot in front of the other, andyou will get there.
Merry Elkins (47:11):
Oh, I'd love that. That's that is the best advice.
Thank you, Miriam. Our guesttoday on Late Boomers has been
Miriam Shulman, art businesscoach, podcast host, and author
of The Step by Step Guide toMaking a Sustainable Living from
Your Creativity. You can reachme at Myriam, yes, Myriam, via
(47:36):
her website schulmanart.com.
That's schulman,art.com. AndMiriam, please tell our audience
again how to get a free chapterof your book and how to, join
your master class free.
Miriam Schulman (47:53):
Sure. So the two free gifts I have for you
today are chapter one, choose tobelieve. Go to
schulmanart.com/believe, and Iwill send you chapter one for
free. And if you wanna jump inon that free masterclass, how to
sell more art without beingInstafamous, go to
(48:13):
schulmanart.com/sellmoreart.Both are free.
Cathy Worthington (48:21):
Perfect. Thanks for listening, boomers
and artists of all ages. Tune innext week when we will have
another exciting guest toinspire you. Please subscribe to
our Late Boomers podcast onYouTube, and take us along in
the car and on walks on yourfavorite audio platform. Let us
know what gets you inspired.
We are on Instagram at I amKathy Worthington and at I am
(48:44):
Mary Elkins and at late boomers.Please share the late boomers
podcast info with your friendswho may not yet be listening to
podcasts. Thanks again, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman (48:55):
Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was so
much fun.
Merry Elkins (48:59):
It was great. Thank you.
Cathy Worthington (49:12):
Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the
podcast that is your guide tocreating a third act with style,
power, and impact. Please visitour website and get in touch
with us at lateboomers.biz. Ifyou would like to listen to or
download other episodes of LateBoomers, go to
ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry Elkins (49:34):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcasts, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use of the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.
This is the EWN podcast network.
Cathy Worthington (00:14):
Welcome to Late Boomers, our podcast guide
to creating your third act withstyle, power, and impact. Hi.
I'm Kathy Worthington.
Merry Elkins (00:24):
And I'm Mary Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations with successfulentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.
Cathy Worthington (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you
along for the ride on eachinterview, recounting the
journey our guests have taken toget where they are, inspiring
you to create your own path tosuccess. Let's get started.
Hi. I'm Cathy Worthington. Welcome to the Late
Boomers podcast. For you artistsand creatives of all ages
(00:58):
listening today, my co host MaryElkins and I have a great guest
for you to meet, Miriam Shulman,art business coach, host of the
Inspiration Place podcast, andauthor of the step by step guide
to making a sustainable livingfrom your creativity.
Merry Elkins (01:18):
And that's the book, and I'm Mary Elkins.
Maryam has helped thousands ofartists around the world develop
their skill sets and growthriving art businesses art
businesses so they can have thetime and freedom to do what they
love. Welcome, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman (01:33):
Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's such an
honor to be here.
Merry Elkins (01:36):
It's great to have you. Nice.
Cathy Worthington (01:40):
Please tell us about your background and
some of the obstacles you facedand what led you to pursue your
art full time.
Miriam Schulman (01:48):
Okay. So ever since I was in the fourth grade,
I wanted to be an artist, butlike many girls, I was told or
many people, I was told, well,you can't make a living that
way. And I believed them. Sowhen I went to college, and I
was a financial aid student, soI didn't have the luxury of
(02:09):
doing something that I didn'tbelieve could support me. I took
the practical route, and I wentto work on Wall Street.
Woah. How however, when nineeleven happened, I knew I
couldn't go back to that world,and I decided that I would do
something different with mylife. So I wasn't quite sure
(02:31):
what that was at first. Ipainted on the side because I
still didn't believe I couldmake a full time living from my
art. I knew I wanted to do it,but I didn't believe I could
make money that way.
And I took a job at firstteaching Pilates at a gym. When
I was working for the gym, theytaught me selling strategies to
(02:53):
offer personal training packagesbecause these upsells are a big
income source for for for gyms.And it was then that I had my
moments that these sellingstrategies could be used to sell
anything, including art. Andthat's when I dedicated myself,
(03:14):
not not to the gym, but toselling my portraits.
Cathy Worthington (03:19):
Oh, that was your moment.
Miriam Schulman (03:22):
Yeah. Well, there was the wake up call of
09:11, and many of us havesimilar moments in our lives.
Sometimes it's a global event,09:11, the pandemic. Sometimes
it's an illness, a divorce, adeath of a loved one that wakes
us up to how precious life isand what is it that we're gonna
(03:45):
do with our lives.
Merry Elkins (03:47):
Yeah. So true.
Cathy Worthington (03:48):
We started our podcast during COVID, you
know, and and that was whenremote, recordings like this
were just not so commonplace.Now they are, but, you know, you
we had a way to reach out andwent for it.
Merry Elkins (04:05):
We sure did. We just went for it. A lot of
people don't go for it. Theyhave great ideas, but they don't
do anything about it. You didthat, Miriam, which is that's
why things happen.
But I have a question, about youwere talking about not believing
that you could do it or you weretold that you couldn't do it. Is
that something that couldsabotage someone's success and
(04:29):
artists especially, artistsespecially, their success?
Miriam Schulman (04:34):
Yeah. It's not just artists. My book,
Artpreneur, is directed towardscreative people. And by artists,
I don't just mean painters. Itcan be anyone in a creative
field, but really any creativeentrepreneur.
There, there is a lot of socialconditioning that is at play,
especially, as you mentioned,for artists, but also for women.
(04:55):
We're told not to take up space.And we're given that message
both explicitly and implicitlythrough the diet industry,
you're supposed to be small. Ifyou I live in New York City, so
I see, men and women riding thesubways. The men have their legs
splayed out, the women aresitting all cross legged,
they're trying not to even takeup physical room with their
(05:17):
bodies.
So being given the message thatyou shouldn't desire sex and
money has an impact on how webuild our businesses. And then
as you said, Mary, many peoplehave ideas, but they talk
themselves out of it.
Merry Elkins (05:33):
Wow.
Miriam Schulman (05:34):
And what happens, it happens on a
subconscious level. Some of itis the external programming, but
a lot of it really is our ownour own brain survival mechanism
because we have as humans havesurvived our brains have evolved
for survival, not goalachievement. So anytime we're
(05:57):
going to do something that makesthat's new, that makes us feel
uncomfortable, our brain's gonnacome up with all kinds of
reasons why it's a terribleidea. And the smarter you are
and the, more creative you are,the better you'll be at coming
up with all those reasons. Andthis is also, of course, then
where social conditioning isgonna come into play because
(06:20):
those could play into yoursubconscious reasoning.
So you have you wanna dosomething, but it caused you
fear either on a conscious orunconscious level. That leads to
doubts whether this is going towork. Those leads to those
stories. And what happens nextis you're either going to go
into procrastal learning modebecause you have to figure it
(06:40):
all out because that way youwon't fail or you wallow in
confusion and overwhelm. Deer inthe headlights.
I don't know what to do. Buteither way, that generally will
tend to lead towardsprocrastination or not taking
the steps to do those greatideas that you have. So it is
not your fault if that's you.Mhmm. The three of us are not
(07:02):
any aren't special.
We just kind of push past thatand did it anyway of what our
what what our dreams were.
Cathy Worthington (07:11):
Right. Well, you know, you talk a little bit
about the belief triad. So whatis that and how does it help
raise our money mindset?
Miriam Schulman (07:21):
Okay. This is I love the belief triad. So if you
followed any kind of selfdevelopment, you've heard you
gotta believe in yourself. We'veall heard that. We've heard you
gotta believe in what you do.
That's two parts, your belief inyourself, belief in your art or
what you do. The third part ofthe belief triad really is
(07:43):
critical, and that is belief inyour audience or your customer,
and that's where people willsabotage themselves the most. In
my book, Artpreneur, I use ananalogy with the movie Pretty
Woman, and you've both have seenit, right?
Cathy Worthington (08:00):
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (08:00):
Seen it? Yeah. Okay. My friends like to tease
me that my book is for women ofa certain age, you know? Well My
references are from thenineties.
Okay.
Cathy Worthington (08:09):
So watch that too.
Miriam Schulman (08:11):
Yeah. So right. Right. Alright. So but just to
refresh everyone's memory,there's that scene where Julia
Roberts, goes to Rodeo Drive tobuy some clothes.
Mhmm. She has Richard Gere's gokart, but but those mean
salespeople won't wait on her.Mhmm. Now a lot of us think when
we're in business that we're notthat mean sales per person, but
(08:34):
how many times have we thoughtto ourselves, she doesn't have
the money. She won't pay.
This is probably too expensivefor her. You offer discount
before they say yes or no.That's what a lack of belief in
your customer actually lookslike. You're being that mean
sales lady, not on purpose, butthat's what's happening. So
(08:57):
that's how you end up sabotagingyour sales.
And if you have uncertaintyabout your buyer, they will pick
up on that. Now that could beuncertainty you have about
yourself, but any kind ofuncertainty they're going to
pick up on and it's repellent.The kind of energy you need when
you're in business, especiallywhen you're selling, is you need
(09:18):
that confident energy to attractand make people feel comfortable
about buying from you.
Cathy Worthington (09:26):
Oh, I'm buying a little bit about the
money mindset. And what's what'sthe triad?
Miriam Schulman (09:33):
Okay. So the triad is there's three things,
belief in your art or what youdo. So what you do could be you
sell website design. It could bethat you are a therapist. It
could be that you whatever it isthat there's belief in yourself,
belief in what you do, andbelief in your customer.
(09:56):
The customer is the third piece.
Cathy Worthington (09:58):
Okay.
Miriam Schulman (09:58):
So that is the triad.
Cathy Worthington (10:00):
Yeah. I didn't quite understand. What
words and phrases should peoplestop saying in order to raise
their money mindset or get intothis triad?
Miriam Schulman (10:10):
Okay. So, it's less about getting into the
triad, but but some things thatwe tell ourselves and we say it
like we're the facts and it's aknee jerk response, but it
really lowers your moneymindset. The number one thing I
think that we should alleliminate from our vocabulary is
stop saying I can't afford thator it's too expensive.
Merry Elkins (10:30):
Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (10:31):
Tell yourself the truth. The truth is I choose
not to buy that or I choose notto make that a priority at this
time. But when you constantlyare saying, I don't have money,
Merry Elkins (10:45):
then you don't have money.
Miriam Schulman (10:46):
Like right. And and it's, like, I can't afford
that. It's it's not probably noteven true. Like, okay, it's a
hundred dollars more than maybewhat you want to pay. The truth
is you don't choose toprioritize buying that thing at
this time.
I choose not to, not that youdon't have the money. So that,
that's a very powerful thing to,to watch yourself and reframe
(11:10):
that.
Cathy Worthington (11:11):
Yeah. I like that.
Merry Elkins (11:12):
Any other phrases or words?
Miriam Schulman (11:16):
Yeah. The I so I can't afford. It's too much
money. So the I don't have moneyis is one of them. I can't
afford that as well.
Is that really true? And is ittoo expensive? Well, maybe it
is, maybe it isn't. Maybe youjust don't feel comfortable
spending that, that's okay, butthat doesn't make it too
(11:38):
expensive.
Merry Elkins (11:38):
Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (11:38):
And the reason why it's important to be careful
with these with these with thesephrases is because if you're
offering something for sale andyou're always labeling these
other things as too expensiveand you can't afford it, you
will think that's what yourcustomer's thinking about you.
Merry Elkins (11:54):
Mhmm. Good point. You know, Yeah. For sure.
Talking about the belief triad,a lot of it has to do with
trust.
Doesn't it trust in yourself? Somany people don't trust
themselves to actuallyaccomplish what they'd like to
accomplish. How do you feelabout that?
Miriam Schulman (12:12):
Yeah. Mary, that's a really great point that
you you brought up. So earlier,I said that if you are feeling
unsure about any part of theprocess yourself, your art, or
your customer, that belieftriad, you're going to repel. So
you need to feel confident. Sohow do you gain confidence?
I love to tell the story aboutone of my clients, in the in the
(12:34):
book Entrepreneur, I called herMargaret. Not her real name,
real person, but not her realname, of course. And Margaret
came to me and she said, youknow, I know that I'm supposed
to do these things that we weretalking about, but I
procrastinate. And I says, well,why do you think that is? And
she says, well, it's because I Idon't have good confidence.
(12:54):
I said, no. It's the other wayaround. You lack confidence
because you procrastinate. So ifyou look at the definition of
self confidence in thedictionary, it actually says
trustworthiness. Oh.
Self trust in a person or athing. So every time you don't
(13:16):
do what you say you're gonna do,it erodes that confidence. And
every time you do what you sayyou're gonna do, like you you
Kathy and Mary, how you startsaid you're gonna start this
podcast and you did it, itincreases your confidence.
Merry Elkins (13:32):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (13:34):
It does. I get it. That really makes sense.
Merry Elkins (13:38):
So people don't often use the word artist and
entrepreneur in the samesentence. Can you give us
pointers on how artists canbecome entrepreneurs and maybe a
few steps that would empowerthem to do so?
Miriam Schulman (13:54):
Yeah. The very first thing is and this is why I
called, my first chapter chooseto believe. So remember how we
started this whole conversation?I said, I wanted to be an
artist. I just didn't believethat that was possible.
So the very first thing that youshould do if you wanna become an
artist, or really if you wannado anything in the world, is
(14:16):
declare that identity. Andthat's why I started Artpreneur
with a quote by Oprah WinfreyYeah. Which is and I'm just
gonna just read it word for wordbecause Please. It's not worth
paraphrasing it. Every time youstate what you want or believe,
you're the first to hear it.
(14:37):
It's a message to both you andothers about what you think is
possible.
Merry Elkins (14:43):
Oh, I love that.
Miriam Schulman (14:45):
So for somebody who wants to make it as an
artist, I tell them, telleverybody you know. I am an
artist and claim that identity.It's a way for you to articulate
what you do to the world and tonot second guess yourself and
and keep away from impostersyndrome. But I give that
(15:05):
advice, Kathy and Mary, to anywoman who is looking to step
into a new new role. I am apodcaster.
I am I am a, clothing designer.I am a whatever it is. Tell
everybody you know who you are.Make it true for yourself.
Merry Elkins (15:27):
That's true. I am a writer. I am an expert.
Miriam Schulman (15:30):
Writer. I'm a exactly.
Cathy Worthington (15:33):
Mhmm. Yeah. That's such a good piece of
advice, and it's so hard toactually do that, to step out of
your comfort zone and tellsomebody that if you haven't
been labeling yourself as thatbefore. Yeah. You know, somebody
that's been quietly painting artand keeping it in the closet and
doesn't even mention it.
(15:55):
And then to start callingthemself an artist to other
people must be so
Miriam Schulman (16:01):
hard. So hard and so empowering once they
start start. So I got a messagethe other day from a new client.
I think she's in her latefifties, and she said she's been
telling each of her friends oneby one. And at first, it was so
hard, and now she's unstoppable.
Like, it has been so empoweringjust to be able to start
(16:25):
declaring that to everyone.
Merry Elkins (16:28):
And in a way, it's a promise to yourself that you
have to do it because all theseother people it's a total
commitment because all thesepeople are expecting you to do
it. Mhmm.
Cathy Worthington (16:40):
Yeah. And how important is it for social to
have social media for artistswho wanna sell their work?
Miriam Schulman (16:48):
Well, here's where I get to be a little bit
controversial because I havesome opinions about that. Okay.
So when I first started writingArtpreneur, the average
engagement rate was one percent.So I was writing Artpreneur in
2022. And by the time I went toedit that chapter, the average
(17:13):
engagement rate had dropped to0.6%.
And let's just be very clearwhat that means. That means out
of a thousand people, only sixpeople will be engaging with
you. That's what point 6% is.Okay? Not 60%, not 6%, zero
point six %.
(17:33):
Now we're in 2025. Theengagement rate on Instagram has
dropped to 0.4%. And for allthose influencers, the people
who you're seeing who wannateach you how to increase their
your engagement rate if you justpay them money and do what they
(17:53):
say, Well, their engagement rateis also less than 1%. It's
better than point 4%, but it'slike maybe point seven. So that
is why social media is not animportant part of your business
strategy.
And anyone who's been relying onit, like the TikTokers, had a
(18:15):
wake up call this month when itwas almost banned. So then the
question is, what's thealternative? So that is why I
encourage everyone who's inbusiness to build an email list.
Cathy Worthington (18:32):
Oh, yeah.
Miriam Schulman (18:33):
The average open rate for an email list is
between 2550% and that's evenstill true in 2025. Email
marketing is the cockroach ofmarketing, you can't get rid of
it, it is not debt. Oh. So evenif we use that low number, 24%,
(18:56):
don't worry, I've done the math,I'm very good at math. So if you
want to get the same resultswith email marketing as
Instagram, you would need 6,000followers on Instagram to get
the same number of people to tosee what it is you're posting as
a hundred people as emailsubscribers.
(19:20):
So which is easier, getting ahundred email subscribers or
6,000 Instagram followers?
Merry Elkins (19:29):
Mhmm. Good point.
Cathy Worthington (19:30):
I'm not sure because for podcasters, I'm not
sure how podcasters build anemail. I guess we have to offer
something.
Miriam Schulman (19:38):
Right. So right now
Cathy Worthington (19:39):
offer something.
Miriam Schulman (19:40):
Here is how I do it. If you're listening to
this podcast and you want achapter of my free a chapter of
my book, go to schulmanart.comforward slash believe.
Cathy Worthington (19:52):
Mhmm. And
Miriam Schulman (19:52):
you put your name and your email, and I will
send you a free chapter. Sothat's how I do it for to get
people to then join my emaillist. And then every week,
whenever I have
Merry Elkins (20:03):
a new
Miriam Schulman (20:03):
podcast, I send it out in my email.
Merry Elkins (20:08):
Interesting. Right.
Cathy Worthington (20:10):
What can we learn from famous artists of the
past, like Matisse, about howhow artists can sell their work?
Miriam Schulman (20:17):
Oh, that's it. I love this question. Okay. So,
there were two sisters whocollected lots of art who lived
in Baltimore, Maryland, and thiswas at the turn of the century.
They were uber, uber rich.
Their family had, made cottonthat was sold to Levi Strauss to
(20:40):
make jeans and also made theuniforms of World War one. So
they had a lot of money, andthey used their money to buy
art. They could buy any art inthe world that they wanted. The
younger the sisters, the one whopassed away last, bequeathed her
collection to the Baltimore ArtMuseum. And in it, there were
(21:04):
700 Matisses, and only a hundredPicassos.
Merry Elkins (21:10):
Only.
Miriam Schulman (21:11):
Now she could have bought any art she wanted,
and this was not when Picassowasn't more expensive than
Matisse. It had nothing to dowith that, by the way. Okay. So
the reason why she bought somany more Matisse's was because
he used to write her letters.Oh.
So he would write her letterssaying, here's the art I'm
(21:33):
working on. I think you wouldlike this. What can we do now in
2025 that's like writingletters?
Cathy Worthington (21:41):
Email. Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.
Ding.
Miriam Schulman (21:43):
Yes. Writing emails.
Merry Elkins (21:46):
I love that. Letters do work, and especially
personal handwritten ones.
Miriam Schulman (21:52):
They do still work. So one of the things that
I do tell my clients is inaddition to the emails is to
send postcards to their bestcollectors and clients in
Cathy Worthington (22:03):
the
Miriam Schulman (22:03):
mail, because there's no spam filter on your
front door.
Merry Elkins (22:09):
Ah, that's true. Is that one way an artist can
build a signature brand?
Miriam Schulman (22:16):
Yeah. Well, a a signature brand is more about
your reputation. So it's morethan just your colors and your
logos. It's really what peoplesay about you when you're not
around. So building a signaturebrand is really about being real
and honest and authentic andtelling stories.
(22:36):
Because right now, we're livingin the world of AI, and just
putting out words that a robotcan put out isn't going to do it
anymore. So people wanna hearfrom you. They want your
stories. And like you werehinting at, Mary, they want, you
know, a physical thing that theycan touch. Maybe you signed it,
(22:58):
wrote a personal note on it.
Anything that you can do topersonalize the experience, make
them feel like they really knowyou. No matter how big your
business is, it will grow biggerbecause of that.
Merry Elkins (23:12):
And it makes them feel important too because
you've taken the time to writeto them.
Cathy Worthington (23:18):
Yes. I have a question. What are the five most
common mistakes people make whenthey're creating and selling
their art and their services.
Miriam Schulman (23:30):
Okay. Alright. So let's start with, a few of
them we've already touched on.Mhmm. But one of them is that
cheaper the belief or the myththat cheaper is easier to sell,
and it's not.
So I'm gonna give you somedifferent examples. Would you
(23:51):
hire the cheapest babysitter foryour child or your grandchild?
Cathy Worthington (23:59):
Probably not. But,
Miriam Schulman (24:01):
if I really would. If you it depends if it
is. Right? If
Cathy Worthington (24:06):
the best. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (24:08):
Sometimes. Right? Okay.
Cathy Worthington (24:10):
Grandma. Grandma.
Miriam Schulman (24:11):
Grandma. We all know about that. But what about
your furry pet? If your petneeded surgery that would extend
its life for another five yearsand your vet told you it's gonna
be $2,000, are you gonna lookfor the vet who only charges a
hundred $90?
Merry Elkins (24:32):
No. No. Mm-mm.
Miriam Schulman (24:36):
Or if you needed plastic surgery, you're
not looking for the cheapest?
Merry Elkins (24:42):
No. Looking for the best.
Miriam Schulman (24:46):
Yeah. So our customers are not looking for
the cheapest either. Whatthey're looking for is what's
known as reassuringly expensive.
Cathy Worthington (24:59):
Reassuringly expensive. Good.
Merry Elkins (25:02):
I have to write that down. I like that.
Cathy Worthington (25:06):
I mean, how do we think? Otherwise, nobody
would buy designer watches.Everybody buys very expensive
watches.
Miriam Schulman (25:14):
That's a good one. So I I did not talk about
designer watches and my book,Artpreneur, because the
publisher thought I wouldalienate readers. So if I talk
about designer watches Oh, youare
Cathy Worthington (25:25):
actually going to, but that's how
Miriam Schulman (25:27):
you do it. I I am not a consumer. This Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (25:31):
That's how those things got so big.
Miriam Schulman (25:33):
Well, I mean, but look at men. It's like, you
know, they men especially, theylove their expensive watches
even more than women do.
Merry Elkins (25:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (25:41):
So you could not sell a Rolex watch on eBay
for $47. You couldn't. Youcouldn't do it. Nobody would
believe it's real. And even ifyou tried asking $400, they
still wouldn't buy it.
So when I was researching thispart of the book that never made
it into the book, I went to aused jeweler in my town, to see
(26:03):
what they were charging for usedRolexes, and their cheapest used
Rolex was $6,000, which was moremoney than what it cost to buy a
brand new one online. I mean, Iknow they're all over. The
prices are all over the place.
Merry Elkins (26:17):
Time. Definitely. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (26:19):
Yes. But the reason why is because the
jeweler understood that he hadto price it that high so people
would believe that it was real,that if he priced it too low
that he would lose the sale.
Cathy Worthington (26:31):
Mhmm. Mhmm. I think it's funny I thought of
watches. I mean, maybe just
Miriam Schulman (26:35):
Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (26:36):
Because it then you were researching
watches.
Miriam Schulman (26:38):
Well, because it's one of those things that
gets a high price tag or, like,a designer bag. Like, why? You
know, why is this so expensive?It it's and there's there's
something called a Veblen good,which people actually it's named
after the economist Veblen,where people will actually pay,
(26:59):
want to pay more. They desire itmore because of a high price,
like a Birkin bag or a veryexpensive watch.
Those are examples or a Tesla.
Cathy Worthington (27:11):
I'm gonna have to hit on some other do we
need some more mistakes peoplemake in creating and selling?
Miriam Schulman (27:18):
Yeah. I mean, we talked about the idea of,
procrastinal learning because,you know, your brain gets in the
way. And we talked about socialmedia. That's a big one. People
believe that they just need abigger audience.
They think that's their problemwhen, really, the problem is
that they're trying to sellcheap things at a volume. So a
(27:40):
lot of times people have aproblem, but they misdiagnosed
the problem. Like, oh, I onlyneed a bigger social media
following. No. No.
You you really actually onlyneed to raise your prices or use
email or use publicity. So,usually, it's it's a
misdiagnosis of what theirproblem is, and I do walk you
through all five of those commonproblems in in my book.
Merry Elkins (28:02):
Yeah. So you use PR publicity.
Miriam Schulman (28:04):
Oh, of course. Why why am I here?
Merry Elkins (28:08):
That's true. Why are you doing the podcast?
Exactly. Well, talk as long aswe're talking about that, talk
about your book, Artpreneur.
Miriam Schulman (28:18):
Thank you. So, I wrote the book to recenter
women in both the art world andthe business world. And by
recentering, it doesn't meanthis book isn't for men. It's
just that I'm inclusive in whatI'm talking about in the book.
So the book, it does have lotsof women, people from different
(28:40):
backgrounds, differentreligions.
And I I felt it was it's hardenough to believe that you can
do something like become anartist that is important to show
examples of what's possible nomatter who you are or what you
look
Merry Elkins (28:56):
like. Well, you talk about marketing diseases in
your book. What what is that?What are they?
Miriam Schulman (29:03):
We'll we'll pick one. Okay. So, one of the
one that I talk about isSleeping Beauty Complex.
Merry Elkins (29:12):
Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (29:12):
And in the Disney movie Sleeping Beauty,
the fairies, one of the the evilfairy says she pricks her
finger. She's gonna die orwhatever, fall into a sleep. I I
forget the exact details. Butthe fairies then the other
fairies are gonna hide her awayin the woods. And the next time
you see Sleeping Beauty, youknow, she's this beautiful grown
(29:36):
up woman.
You don't see the braces. Youdon't see the glasses. You don't
see the pimples. You don't see,you know, any of that puberty
nonsense. Okay.
Now many of us want ourbusinesses to be like that. We
wanna keep it hidden away andnot take it out when it's going
(29:56):
through that adolescent stage.We wanna wait till it's perfect.
Oh. The I'm not ready yet.
Merry Elkins (30:03):
I'm guilty of that.
Miriam Schulman (30:05):
Oh, many of us are. This is why I talk about
it. Many of us are guilty ofthat, and we wanted our to be a
grown up business before we takeit out into the world. But it
really needs to go through thatwhole you have to love I call it
you have to love your baby now.So, Kathy and Mary, it's just
like with your podcast.
I'm sure the podcast now is alot different than it was in
(30:27):
2020.
Merry Elkins (30:28):
Totally. Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (30:30):
Okay. And it's gone through a lot. You know,
it's grown up since then. It'sgrown up in five years. Could
you imagine if you didn't wannabring it out in 2020 because it
was just this baby podcast?
Cathy Worthington (30:41):
Yeah. We didn't know what we were doing,
so we did it anyway.
Merry Elkins (30:45):
Right. Right.
Miriam Schulman (30:45):
You're not supposed to. It's okay.
Merry Elkins (30:49):
Yeah. You know, men do that too. Men just go
they don't do the sleepingbeauty contest. They just
believe in themselves and theyjust go for it, often when they
don't even know what they'redoing.
Miriam Schulman (31:00):
Yeah, they actually have statistics that
back up what you're saying sothat, women, before they apply
for a job, have will have willthink they have to meet a % of
the criteria, whereas men willapply for a job even if they
only meet 60% of the criteria.So they actually have statistics
(31:20):
to back up exactly what you'resaying.
Merry Elkins (31:23):
And probably they get hired. They probably do.
Miriam Schulman (31:28):
Well, it's what we've talked about earlier.
Confidence is magnetic.
Merry Elkins (31:32):
You are so right. Talk about another marketing
disease.
Miriam Schulman (31:37):
Rapunzel style marketing. So they're all
they're all, like Treasure.
Merry Elkins (31:42):
I love the way you do that with fairy tales.
Miriam Schulman (31:45):
Yes. So what does Rapunzel do? Rapunzel's up
in her tower waiting for thecustomers to come to her. So
that is what Rapunzel stylemarketing is. And sometimes, I I
see artists who well, they havea website, but they don't have
sales.
And I'm like, yeah. You'rewaiting for the fish to jump
into your boat. I mean, you haveto go out, and and that's what
(32:10):
marketing is. You have to go outand look for them. So Rapunzel
style marketing is you thinkthings just happen to you.
You just wait for something tosomebody to rescue you.
Merry Elkins (32:19):
It doesn't. It's not fate?
How about another one?
Cathy Worthington (32:23):
Characters? You have a Mickey Mouse one? No.
I don't. Another scary princessone?
Miriam Schulman (32:32):
You know, there's one that I talk about
not in my book, but I've beentalking about a lot. I don't
think I made it into the book.But Moana, the the little
Hawaiian girl. So the story ofthat one your your grandmother,
so you both have seen that one?
Cathy Worthington (32:51):
I'm not a grandmother. I I see everything
animated anyway.
Miriam Schulman (32:54):
Oh, you do? Did you see the movie Flow, by the
way?
Merry Elkins (32:57):
I heard about it. I hear you.
Miriam Schulman (32:59):
I saw that by mistake with my husband the
other night. We wanted to seeanother movie, and we walked
into the wrong theater. And,like, fifteen minutes into it,
my husband says,
Merry Elkins (33:07):
I don't think this is the preview. You know? Like
Cathy Worthington (33:14):
And you loved it?
Miriam Schulman (33:16):
Yes. Yes. It's animated. No talking. Just
calming music and animals.
Cathy Worthington (33:24):
Well, then you'll love the wild robot. The
wild robot is fabulous. Like,that I
Miriam Schulman (33:30):
will write that down.
Cathy Worthington (33:31):
Story. Great story. Hardly any dialogue.
Beautiful animation music.
Miriam Schulman (33:36):
So back to Moana.
Cathy Worthington (33:37):
Yeah. Marketing Moana.
Miriam Schulman (33:40):
The story or the theme there, it to just to
for people listeners who whodidn't see the movie, is they
had this beautiful enchantedisland, and it suddenly is not
abundant anymore. And whathappened was there was this
goddess who had lost her heart.And then I'm this is a spoiler
(34:01):
alert. So if you don't wannaknow how Moana ends, you can
fast forward this part. Okay.
So they go out, and there's thislava monster. And it turned out
that the lava monster really isthe goddess without the heart.
And that's what a lot of usexperienced during the pandemic,
this feeling of losing ourcreativity and losing our heart.
(34:25):
And what happens when you losethat inner core is you become
burnt out, Creative burnout,which I see as being like the
lava monster. It's like youcan't create in that state.
Cathy Worthington (34:43):
Mhmm. Yeah. So
Miriam Schulman (34:44):
it's about being willing to refill the
creative well and nurture thatheart that you have.
Cathy Worthington (34:51):
And I was listening to a message on a
podcast the other day on the MelRobbins podcast. She had a guest
on that was explaining thatanxiety is a reverse of
creativity. Mhmm. So if you'refeeling this anxiety, it's
cutting off your creativity andcreativity can get rid of
anxiety. So that's aninteresting point too, that, you
(35:11):
know, your creativity can kindof save you from the spiral
you're going down.
Miriam Schulman (35:17):
Absolutely. So
Cathy Worthington (35:19):
if if we get anybody to encourage their
creativity today, this will be agood step. Tell us about your
podcast now and your onlineclasses. What is your podcast
called?
Miriam Schulman (35:34):
Well, if you like what you heard today, my
podcast is called TheInspiration Place, and it's for
you if you are in business oryou're creative or you want to
hear, more of our discussionsabout mindset, creativity, how
to keep yourself fromprocrastinating, how to keep
(35:56):
yourself from, perfectionism. Soall those things that hold us
back from growing into ourfullest, most evolved version of
ourselves.
Merry Elkins (36:08):
Awesome. What about your online glasses?
Miriam Schulman (36:12):
Yeah. I do right now, the only thing that I
have offer online is I coachartists, which are visual
artists on the business side ofbeing an artist. I do have a
free class for anyone who'slistening. It is how to sell
more art without beingInstafamous.
Cathy Worthington (36:32):
Mhmm.
Miriam Schulman (36:33):
And you can access that class by going to
Schulman Art. Schulman is with ac, s c h u l m a n a r t,
schulman art dot com slashmaster class. Oh, sorry.
Schulmanart.com/sellmoreart. Allone word, sell more art.
Merry Elkins (36:57):
And that would go really not just for visual
artists, but artists andcreatives of all sorts.
Miriam Schulman (37:04):
Any kind of creative entrepreneur. It will
we'll touch upon the fiveproblems. One of them we talked
about in great depth today,which is about, pricing, but
they're in in my book,Artpreneur, there are five
foundations for building abusiness, and every problem
correlates to a solution. Soit's a production problem.
(37:28):
There's a production solution.
And the five areas areproduction, pricing,
prospecting, promotion, andproductivity.
Merry Elkins (37:37):
Well, we'd love to hear more about pricing, but I
wanna ask you about empathy andhow it leads a customer to
purchase something. You touchedon it a little bit, but let's
talk about it. What we all knowwell, maybe we don't know what
empathy is, but how do you useit in sales?
Miriam Schulman (37:57):
I'm really glad you asked that, Mary. And we did
touch upon it a little bit, butthe way I talk about it in
Entrepreneur is when you get anobjection. For example, we
talked about this earlier.Somebody says, I can't afford
that. What is really goingthrough their mind?
Merry Elkins (38:17):
You don't
Miriam Schulman (38:18):
believe it's too expensive. What's really
going through their mind? So ifI'm trying to sell a $5,000
painting to Kathy, Kathy isn'tnecessarily thinking whether
Miriam Shulman is worth 5,000,whether Miriam Shulman's
painting is worth 5,000. Kathy'sprobably worried about, is she
(38:42):
worth spending $5,000 on?
Cathy Worthington (38:45):
Oh.
Miriam Schulman (38:46):
That's why that belief triad is so important
because you have to believe inyour customer more than they
believe in themselves. I have tobelieve that Kathy is worth
spending $5,000 on.
Cathy Worthington (39:03):
How does an artist price their work then?
You mentioned charm pricing andprestige pricing. Okay. Find
that a little bit.
Miriam Schulman (39:12):
Okay. So charm pricing is
Cathy Worthington (39:17):
kind
Miriam Schulman (39:17):
of like Target or Walmart pricing. You walk
into any Target or Walmart, andeverything is $14.97 or
whatever. It's something dot 97.Store. It's a five pack.
You know, it's a package of ofunderwear, dollar 49 each. Now
(39:38):
the the idea of charm pricing ispricing something below the
decimal point, or it could benot below the decimal point, but
$497 instead of $500. With theidea of, not so much tricking
somebody, but the person willthink of it as $497. They will
(40:00):
think of it as being in the 4hundreds rather than rounding it
up. Now sometimes that is a goodthing to do, but not always.
That's where prestige pricingcomes in. Now prestige pricing,
it's not necessarily aboutpricing something higher. It's
about rounded numbers. Sopricing instead of for $14.97,
(40:22):
pricing it for $15. Instead of$4.97, pricing it for $500.
They did research on champagnewhere they priced the champagne
at $39, 40 dollars, and $41. Andthe $40 champagne sold the best.
(40:44):
And the reason why, theresearchers said, is because the
rounded numbers are processed bythe emotional side of the brain,
where these odd numbers, thesefourteen ninety seven, four 90
seven, four 90 nine, those offnumbers are processed by the
logical side of your brain.
Cathy Worthington (41:06):
Oh.
Miriam Schulman (41:06):
So if you're selling a luxury good like art,
which side of the brain do youwant your customer using? The
logical side or the emotionalside?
Merry Elkins (41:20):
Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (41:20):
Yeah. The emotional side every time. Yeah.
Miriam Schulman (41:24):
Every time.
Merry Elkins (41:25):
Well, talking about pricing, how does an
artist price their own work? Imean, it could be you look at
it, you've worked hard on it,you've say you've never actually
stepped out, and now suddenlyyou have this gallery opening
because you've been painting allof these in the dark, shall I
say. You haven't stepped out.You have one of the marketing
(41:47):
diseases of Rapunzel. And so buthow do you put a value on your
own art?
And then you have been sayingthere's no money in the middle.
What do you mean by that?
Miriam Schulman (42:02):
Okay. So that's two different concepts and both
excellent questions. So, let'syou wanna let's tackle the
pricing first. So first of all,you're not gonna be Rapunzel up
in your tower. You will be likethose champagne researchers and
always bringing your art out andtesting it.
And if something is selling tooquickly, you need to raise your
(42:24):
prices. So, things should takelonger to sell. That is the
right way it should be. So toalways be testing higher prices,
I remember when I was sellingprints for a let you know, my a
good size, 11 by 14 for $68, andI thought that was the sweet
(42:46):
spot. They sold well.
And then one year because I'mteaching this all the time, and
so I'm like, well, let me testthat. And I raised the prices to
$75, and they sold better. Andthen I raised the prices to a
hundred dollars, and there wasno drop in sales. So I've seen
this happen over again with myclients as well. One of my
(43:08):
clients, Kayla, was reallyafraid that if she raised her
prices that she would lose herincome and but she was burnt out
as a vet tech.
She had two small boys, and shelived in Arkansas. So not in New
York City, not in a a wealthycommunity. And she was getting
$1,500 for her her, commissions,which is a lot, but I knew her
(43:35):
customers would pay more. So sheraised her price to $3,500, and
the same customer came back andbought it, and he didn't
complain about the higher price.Not only did he not complain,
but he bought the $3,500 canvasas well as two additional
artworks.
(43:55):
So she made so much more moneyjust by raising her prices, and
that makes a world ofdifference. 2,000 extra dollars,
that's life changing for asingle mom with two boys.
Merry Elkins (44:07):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, talk talk about the money in in
the middle. I'm I'm curious.There's no money there.
Miriam Schulman (44:15):
Okay. So this is about people pleasing. So
people pleasing, whether you'redoing it to your family or
you're doing it to yourcustomers, people pleasing, for
those who aren't familiar withthe term, it you you you
basically want to do what's mostpopular, what everybody wants.
And by by that, I'm not sayingyou shouldn't follow trends, but
(44:39):
we're if you're doing it just toplease people, so you don't want
to share your authentic self.You're afraid of who's gonna
judge you because maybe you'resingle, maybe you don't have
kids, maybe you're Jewish likeme.
So all these things you'reworried about. But what happens
is that people never really getto know you. So even though just
(45:04):
by my saying I'm Jewish rightnow, there's people here who who
listen, who that's gonna be abig turnoff for them. And that's
fine. I'll take that becausethere's gonna be people on the
other side who are gonna be, youknow, happy that I'm I'm brave
enough to say who I am.
Where there's no money is thepeople who are not willing to
share their true self, whateverthat is.
Cathy Worthington (45:27):
Whatever it
Miriam Schulman (45:27):
is that they're afraid of that's gonna turn
people off.
Merry Elkins (45:31):
Well, you do talk about embracing in your book, I
believe, embracing your innerweirdo. Can you talk on that a
little bit?
Miriam Schulman (45:40):
Yes. Okay. So, the word weird dates back
hundreds of years. So inShakespeare Macbeth, there were
the weird sisters, and weirddidn't mean the same thing it
means today. So weird actuallymeant magical or fate or
destiny.
And what happened is over thecenturies, as the supernatural
(46:02):
became vilified, the word weirdtook on a negative connotation.
So what I talk about in thatchapter, embrace your inner
weirdo, is those very thingsthat we think make us weird are
what makes us magical. That'swhat people want. They want to
(46:25):
see the real you. Even if youhave braces and glasses and
pimples and your business isstill a baby and you're still
figuring it out.
Cathy Worthington (46:35):
I get it. And, Miriam, what would you like
our audience to have as atakeaway to me?
Miriam Schulman (46:40):
Okay. So I'm gonna end today, with the final
words in the same way I endedthe book artpreneur, which is to
keep marching forward. So ifyou're not sure what direction
to go in, it doesn't matter. Ifyou go 10 steps in the wrong
direction, you'll learn a lotmore than marching in place or
(47:00):
staying still. And do not blameyour boots.
In other words, don't blame thecircumstances. Keep putting one
foot in front of the other, andyou will get there.
Merry Elkins (47:11):
Oh, I'd love that. That's that is the best advice.
Thank you, Miriam. Our guesttoday on Late Boomers has been
Miriam Shulman, art businesscoach, podcast host, and author
of The Step by Step Guide toMaking a Sustainable Living from
Your Creativity. You can reachme at Myriam, yes, Myriam, via
(47:36):
her website schulmanart.com.
That's schulman,art.com. AndMiriam, please tell our audience
again how to get a free chapterof your book and how to, join
your master class free.
Miriam Schulman (47:53):
Sure. So the two free gifts I have for you
today are chapter one, choose tobelieve. Go to
schulmanart.com/believe, and Iwill send you chapter one for
free. And if you wanna jump inon that free masterclass, how to
sell more art without beingInstafamous, go to
(48:13):
schulmanart.com/sellmoreart.Both are free.
Cathy Worthington (48:21):
Perfect. Thanks for listening, boomers
and artists of all ages. Tune innext week when we will have
another exciting guest toinspire you. Please subscribe to
our Late Boomers podcast onYouTube, and take us along in
the car and on walks on yourfavorite audio platform. Let us
know what gets you inspired.
We are on Instagram at I amKathy Worthington and at I am
(48:44):
Mary Elkins and at late boomers.Please share the late boomers
podcast info with your friendswho may not yet be listening to
podcasts. Thanks again, Miriam.
Miriam Schulman (48:55):
Oh, thanks so much for having me. This was so
much fun.
Merry Elkins (48:59):
It was great. Thank you.
Cathy Worthington (49:12):
Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the
podcast that is your guide tocreating a third act with style,
power, and impact. Please visitour website and get in touch
with us at lateboomers.biz. Ifyou would like to listen to or
download other episodes of LateBoomers, go to
ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry Elkins (49:34):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcasts, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use of the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.
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