May 7, 2025 • 48 mins
Have you ever wondered what it takes to turn your book idea into a published masterpiece? Or how to choose between traditional, self, or hybrid publishing? In this episode of Late Boomers, we chat with the incredible John Bond, a seasoned editor, publisher, and author. With over 500 books published and as the mastermind behind the Little Guides series, John shares his journey from a book-loving child to a publishing consultant helping authors shine.
We dive into the nuts and bolts of getting published, from finding your motivation to understanding the market and choosing the right agent. John’s insights on the evolving role of authors in marketing and the timeless debate of ebooks vs. paper books are not to be missed. Whether you're an aspiring author or just book-curious, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement to fuel your literary dreams.
Tune in and let’s embark on this publishing adventure together!
John's Bio
John Bond has been in publishing for thirty plus years, first as an editor, book publisher, then Chief Content Officer, and now a Publishing Consultant at RiverwindsConsulting.com. He is the author of a series of books on writing with Bloomsbury Publishing/Rowman & Littlefield. His newest book is: The Little Guide to Getting Your Book Published: Simple Steps to Success. He is also the host of the YouTube channel “Publishing Defined.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Merry Elkins (00:01):
This is the EWN Podcast Network.
Cathy Worthington (00:14):
Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide
to creating your third act withstyle, power, and impact. Hi.
I'm Kathy Worthington.
Merry Elkins (00:24):
And I'm Mary Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations withentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.
Cathy Worthington (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you
along for the ride on eachinterview, recounting the
journey our guests have taken toget where they are, inspiring
you to create your own path tosuccess. Let's get started.
Hello. I'm Kathy Worthington welcoming you
(00:55):
to a new edition of lateboomers, and I'm here with my
cohost, Mary Elkins. Today, weare going to chat with editor,
publisher, author, John Bond. Hehas overseen the publishing of
500 books.
Merry Elkins (01:09):
And I'm Mary Elkins. John is the author of a
three book series, the LittleGuides. He takes authors from
idea to plan and to findingpublishing. All of us boomers
who have books brewing in usneed to get to know him.
Welcome, John.
John Bond (01:25):
Well, thank you very much for having me on today.
It's a pleasure to meet both ofyou, and I really appreciate the
opportunity to speak to you andyour audience.
Merry Elkins (01:33):
Well, we appreciate your being here too.
Cathy Worthington (01:36):
It's a good subject for us. Please tell us a
little bit how you got startedon this path to counseling
authors. What led up to this?
John Bond (01:46):
Well, when I was a preteen, my, I grew up in Bucks
County in Pennsylvania. Myparents used to go to house
auctions, and many of them theywent to and were in Princeton,
New Jersey. And at the very endof the auction, the books would
go because nobody wanted to takethe books away. So they would
buy for a couple dollars or $5these ten, twenty boxes of
(02:08):
really interesting books, andyoung John just dove into
looking at all these interestingthings and thinking about the
stories that were in all of themand then starting to collect
them. Early on, I worked as alibrarian in a high school, and
then I determined I wanted to dosomething else.
So I had the opportunity to geta position at a publishing
(02:29):
company in South Jersey, whichis where I live. And I started
as an editor and became managingeditor and then book publisher
and eventually chief contentofficer. It was a great
opportunity, and I met with sometremendous people on the author
side, but also on the publishingside. And about ten years ago,
after having worked there forthirty years, I determined I
(02:50):
wanted
Merry Elkins (02:51):
What company?
John Bond (02:52):
The name of the company was Slack Incorporated.
It goes by the YNO Group now. Itis an academic publisher. And so
about ten years ago, Idetermined I wanted to do
something different, and Istarted doing publishing
consulting, but I also do otherthings as well now. And I
connect with authors orpublishers or associations, and
(03:14):
I help them, think throughdeveloping great content and
most importantly, deliveringgreat content.
So it's been a journey toconnect within, authors and to
have the experience of being anauthor myself.
Merry Elkins (03:27):
Wow. That's great. Well, how does one, other than
sitting down at the computer orat your notepad, how does one
get started writing a book?
John Bond (03:40):
It's a great question. I think the really,
the first part is askingyourself what your motivation
is. Do you just want to expressyourself? Do you have a story to
tell? Are you interested inbeing a storyteller?
Do you have a nonfiction bookthat you would like to write? So
thinking through yourmotivations, always suggest, is
the first place to start. Mhmm.And most likely, in your mind,
(04:02):
maybe for years, maybe fordecades, you've been thinking
about writing. And maybe therehave been times when it was in
high school or college or as ayoung adult or beyond that you
started to make small attemptsat a short story or an essay or
a blog post.
And then you start to think,well, maybe I wanna do more than
just this. At that point Mhmm.Start to think through the form
(04:25):
that your work best fits. As Isaid, it could be a short story.
It could be a novel.
What would the genre be? Ormaybe you're interested in
writing for the Internet and,like I said, a blog post or
something else. And then startto think through what you want
to say. At the end of the day,the most important thing is it
really be from the heart it'ssomething that's very important
(04:46):
to you and something you reallywant to express, and that you
really use quality as yourguide. So you wanna use
something that speaks to otherpeople and that they feel is
gonna touch them as well.
I'm not talking about grammar,and and, of course, that's
important. I'm talking abouthave a message that you know
(05:06):
resonates with your coreaudience. However small that
might be, because the beauty ofthe days of the Internet and
Amazon is you can have a veryniche topic and definitely reach
your audience, or you can have avery broad topic. You could
wanna be the the next StephanieMyers or Kirk or or Kurt
Vonnegut or Stephen King. Andthat's a great that's a great
(05:29):
goal to have.
But so really starting out withwhat your message is and what
the format that you wannadeliver it in.
Merry Elkins (05:37):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (05:40):
And then say we get that together, how do we
find an agent?
John Bond (05:46):
Oh, wow. We we jumped we jumped a bunch of steps, but
I'm so I'm gonna pull it up.
Cathy Worthington (05:50):
I wanna I wanna we can go back and pick up
the steps.
John Bond (05:53):
No. No. No. So here, let's let's do that.
Cathy Worthington (05:56):
I'm happy to pick up the steps.
John Bond (05:58):
No. Let's do that. Let's let's say you've written
your
Cathy Worthington (06:01):
novel. Agent?
John Bond (06:02):
Okay. Absolutely. Let's do
Cathy Worthington (06:04):
it. Okay.
John Bond (06:05):
Let's let's say you've written your novel, and
then let's say you've had abunch of people you know that
are the target audience read itand give you honest feedback.
I'm not talking about yourspouse or your parent or your
best friend. I'm talking aboutpeople that are the target
audience, and you've given thempermission to give you honest
feedback. You've looked at allthe feedback, and you've been
(06:28):
honest with yourself. Some of itprobably resonates and is true.
Some of it maybe isn't the isn'tthe image of what you want or
the picture of what you want foryour for your book, and you've
made those changes. Now you haveyour final draft of your novel
that you have really done thebest job that you could possibly
do, and that's really key. Nowyou're gonna go look for a way
(06:50):
to publish. So there are twoavenues. You can seek a
publisher, and there are plentyof publishers that allow you to
approach them directly, or youcan seek an agent.
This goes back again tomotivation. If you want to get
published at Random House or thelike, you're going to need an
agent. They don't acceptunagented requests. Ah. But with
(07:13):
Yeah.
But with some publishers, theyare more than willing to accept
unagented requests. So yourmotivation is really important.
If you wanna be at the top ofthe New York Times bestseller
list or if you wanna be on a onan Oprah like TV show to talk
about your book, then you aregonna need an agent. Let me take
them and set them both asidehere. So for the publisher,
(07:35):
you're gonna really want to knowthe the competitive and
comparable books that are inyour area.
They should be well known. Theyshould be in print. Please don't
say there's nothing like thisthat's out there because there's
all because there's alwayssomething that's competitive for
your book.
Merry Elkins (07:53):
How many books how many books would you need to
come up with for an indiepublisher?
John Bond (07:58):
I think what you should do I think we should do
is you should have a completecensus of what's out there. So
it's not that you have to gothrough every science fiction
book, but you really have toknow the books that compete
directly against yours. I'm notgonna put a number to your
census, but it should take awhile. This is not I sit in a
couple hours while I while I'mwatching TV. When you do send it
(08:21):
into the publisher and and ifthey ask for comparable titles,
I would suggest four to eight,and it really depends on the
niche you're in.
If you're in a very specific
Merry Elkins (08:30):
authors. Right? Four to
John Bond (08:32):
eight different authors. Authors, remember they
should be in print, and theyshould be popular. I would not
suggest self published books ascomparable books unless they are
enormous bestsellers. So youwould also want to look at your
market. Who specifically is yourmarket?
And and what that tells you iswell, first, let me say, don't
(08:53):
say everybody that loves romanceor everybody that loves
espionage is the market. Be morespecific. Think about a profile.
I know that's a bad word, butprofile the people that would be
your target market for yourbook. Use these things to start
to think about the type of agentor publisher that you would like
to approach.
(09:15):
As for agents, there are twogreat databases. I can send them
to you, and you can post them inthe show notes. I don't
Merry Elkins (09:22):
mean great.
John Bond (09:23):
I I don't personally use them. I know people that
have used them that that havereally said good things about
them. There is a fee. It'susually a month by month fee,
but there are people on therethat are agents that you would
wanna go through and thinkcarefully about your genre and
what what what your targetmarket is. When you're looking
(09:45):
for agents, look for ones thatspecialize in your area.
So that's very, very important.If they only want 10 pay a 10
page sample, do not send them a20 page sample. If they only
want x y z, don't send them x yor x y z a. Stick very closely
to the requests or the mandatesfrom the agent, and do not
(10:08):
deviate from them. They'relooking for a reason to cross
you off the list.
One more thing from agent onemore thing from agents, an agent
should never be paid. So if youcome across somebody that said,
for x number of dollars, I'lllook at your book or x number of
dollars, I'll give you feedbackon the market, that's not an
agent. They are somebody that'smaking money off of being an
(10:30):
editor or promotional editor ordevelopmental editor. So they
only get paid through royaltieswhen you when your book is sold.
So be very careful.
A lot of people call themselvesagents that are not really.
Merry Elkins (10:43):
Mhmm.
Cathy Worthington (10:44):
That's interesting because, of course,
Mary and I know that from theentertainment business too. You
you don't pay your agentupfront. They get paid when you
work.
John Bond (10:52):
That's right.
Cathy Worthington (10:52):
So that's really important.
Merry Elkins (10:55):
Absolutely. Good info. I have tons more questions
about this, but, let's talkabout you you you started to
talk about finding a publisher.
John Bond (11:04):
If you wanted So with a pub
Merry Elkins (11:07):
As far as if you we have spoken about, like,
getting the big one of the bigfive. It's Random House,
Penguin. What are the others?
John Bond (11:16):
Yeah. So if you're looking for an independent
publisher that's not one of theones that only accept unagent
only accept agented material,Start to look at the the genres
that they're in and how activethey are. So let's say if you
find a publisher, sometimes aregional, sometimes a medium
sized publisher, or even a smallpublisher that you feel will do
(11:39):
right by you in the traditionalpublishing model, look at what
they're currently publishing. Sosometimes people will do some
research and see, I seesomebody's done this book on
dystopian fiction, and I reallylike that. However, that book
may have been from ten yearsago.
Right. And then you go and lookat what they're currently
publishing, and you find outthat they haven't been
(12:02):
publishing that much. So whattheir current list is from 2024,
'20 '20 '5, and maybe from 2026will be very valuable. They'll
tell you where their where theiremphasis is right now.
Cathy Worthington (12:15):
And you would expect that information to just
be available on the Internet ingeneral, or are you sending an
inquiry letter to them?
John Bond (12:24):
What do you have? If you go to the publisher's
website and you go to their booklisting, many times there'll be
a filter of what's available. Soyou'll be able to filter by most
recent or by year, and you'll beable to scroll through it by the
genre that you're in and seewhat's there. Another thing that
you're able to do is go toAmazon. Amazon's got some great
(12:46):
points.
It's got some negative points.They are, unfortunately, the de
facto people in this market, butthey also are sometimes not the
best friends of publishers andauthors. Having said that, if
you go to Amazon or somethingsimilar and you go to their
advanced search section and youstart to look at similar titles
or titles that you particularlyknow, you'll go and you'll see a
(13:10):
drop down that not only allowsyou to search by author, title,
but also by publisher. So byputting that publisher in there
and then separating andfiltering it by year, you'll be
able to see that information atAmazon. Now when you find it at
the publisher, it's the mostaccurate at the publisher,
whereas Amazon puts in what theyknow, and sometimes they have it
(13:31):
right, and sometimes they don't.
So finding publishers that aredoing good solid work in your
genre that are active in thatarea now versus in the past
would be the best way toproceed. And then you go to
their website. It usually sayshow to submit a proposal or a
book to them. Then once
Merry Elkins (13:50):
again if you would, because I think that
indie publishers require morethan an agent does as far as
what you submit to them. Is thatcorrect?
John Bond (13:59):
That is. Sometimes, even for a novel, they request a
book proposal. A book bookproposal is a 20 to 25 page or
longer document, industryindustry standard of the topics
it covers, and it goes throughand gives you exact information
about what they want about you,an extended table of contents,
(14:20):
the market, as I said, thecompetitive books, and then
something that's very important.Don't everybody groan right now,
but they wanna know about yourauthor promotional platform.
Yes.
And what and what this means istwenty, thirty twenty, thirty,
forty years ago, the publisherwas solely responsible for the
marketing and promotion anddistribution of the book. And
(14:43):
increasingly today, they wantthe author to participate in it
to a certain degree and to beable to connect with their
audience. Do not say to thepublisher, well, I'll do
whatever you want. That's myauthor promotional platform.
They're looking for you tounderstand and be able to
connect with your market.
And that may be through asignificant social media
(15:05):
account, maybe through
Merry Elkins (15:07):
speaking significant on this tell me tell
John Bond (15:10):
me what it really comes down to is your genre and
how much the social mediaaccount is about that. So if you
have your Facebook page thatyour friends and relatives have
all connected with and you have500 connections, that's not
specifically about your book andabout that market. But if you
have, let's say, a Twitteraccount or a x account where
(15:32):
you're only speaking about youngadult books and you have an
active following on there amongpeople that are active in that
area, that will be a moresignificant following. Let's say
you also have a podcast that youdo or you have a YouTube channel
or and and so on. So there areways that they wanna know you
(15:53):
wanna connect with youraudience, and you're gonna
explain to them about your newproject and get them as excited
as you're going to as they wantto be.
So from that point of view, theauthor promotional platform is
you giving exact details overhow you would connect with the
audience. So going back to whatyou were saying, Mary, sometimes
(16:14):
independent publishers willrequest many things from you
more than what an agent may, andone of the things might be that
author promotional platform orthe book proposal.
Merry Elkins (16:26):
A question. What if like, this is the late
boomers podcast. We our audienceis late boomers, boomers, and
above and below. We have youngpeople listening too. But what
if you write a book that is foryounger people, but you are
(16:47):
older?
John Bond (16:49):
Well, I don't think anybody really thinks about when
they think of classic books, theage of what the author was. So
whoever wrote The Joy ofCooking, nobody's really thought
how old were they when theywrote it because what they're
really going by is how great therecipes are and how great the
instructions are. So from thatpoint of view, I think if you
(17:11):
speak if we're talking about anovel here, if you speak in a
genuine voice and you have amessage or a story that you
wanna tell that will connect,whether it be timeless or geared
towards a specific, time oflife, what really matters is
your voice and the genuinenessgenuineness of it. Now to be
honest, if you're selling anovel to 25 year old men, sure,
(17:38):
it would be better if you were a25 year old man, but at the end
of the day, it's your story andthe genuineness of it that
matters. So I don't think it'ssolely the criteria, but of
course, it does help with beingconnected through that author
promotional platform.
Cathy Worthington (17:53):
It's really difficult because authors have
to use the other side of theirbrain to do all the marketing,
and it's not the side of thebrain that they use when they
sit in a room writing on thecomputer or a notepad. It's a
completely different switch. Butyou're saying but sounds to me
like if you're gonna write, say,a novel, you need to be
(18:17):
developing your social media theentire time you're writing the
novel.
Merry Elkins (18:21):
That's right.
Cathy Worthington (18:22):
So that you're ready going out of the
gate. You can't start creatingsocial me social media
followings, to my experience,take two to two, three, four
years to accumulate. You know,if you're gonna get a bunch of
followers, if you've got a nichemarket, these kind of things.
It's not overnight. So what doyou tell people about that?
John Bond (18:44):
You've hit on something that's very important.
I have to say I've had theexperience of speaking to many
authors that say, simply want towrite the book, and I want
nothing to do with marketing orpromoting it. I get that. And I
and I understand thatperspective, and that was a
perspective for many years, theforties, fifties, sixties,
seventies, eighties, maybe intothe nineties, maybe even into
(19:06):
the o's, but that's really notthe situation as much today.
Remember, it doesn't all fall onyour shoulders, but it is
important because you are theperson that is the best
ambassador, the best advocatefor your book.
You're gonna have thatenthusiasm. When I see the two
of you and the genuineness ofyour interest and enthusiasm for
(19:27):
doing what you're doing rightnow, nobody can do this for you.
Somebody couldn't come in as anintern and promote your podcast
the way the two of you do withyour energy and enthusiasm right
now. Going back to your commentabout starting early, it's very,
very important. You are correct.
While you're thinking of youridea, that is the time not for
(19:50):
you to plan social media to getfollowers, but that's the time
for you to start to think withhow you're gonna connect with
your audience, and it can takemany forms. The one thing I do
wanna caution with social media,and I think a little bit, Kathy,
you fell into the trap there, isby it's a place to gain
(20:12):
followers. And, really, what youhave to think about for whatever
the channel you do, whether it'sa podcast or social media,
speaking engagements, writingguest blogs, doing a YouTube
channel, speaking live, you haveto do it as a genuine thing that
brings you joy and brings youenergy to connect with that
(20:33):
audience. The thing I'm reallyinterested in when I speak with
authors one on one, I'm reallyinterested in hearing their idea
and helping them to whatevertheir motivation is to try to
find a place that's right forthem. It could just be self
publishing, and they're gonnahave a few hundred books that
they're able to distribute tofriends, or it could be that
(20:53):
random house moonshot that wetalked about.
So from that point of view, youreally have to be into it and be
really excited about doing it asopposed to, let's say, at the
end of your novel, you clickspell check, and you go back and
say, this is the thing I had todo. So there has to be a bit of
energy enthusiasm for it. And ifit's done as a responsibility,
(21:17):
it will lack a little bit ofwhat it needs.
Cathy Worthington (21:20):
Mhmm. Right. I get that. When do you usually
tell people they should selfpublish?
John Bond (21:28):
So let's use three different terms. There's self
publishing, there's hybridpublishing, and traditional
publishing. Traditionalpublishing is the random house
model. You give it to them, theytake all the responsibility,
they pay all the money, and theypay you a royalty. Some people
complain about how much aroyalty is, but at the end of
the day, if you're a firstnovelist or a first time author,
(21:49):
you're happy to have a bookcontract.
Merry Elkins (21:51):
That's right.
John Bond (21:51):
Self publishing years ago was called Vanity Press, and
it had a bad name to it. Buttoday, it's something completely
different. If you use a servicelike Amazon Kindle Direct or
IngramSpark, you're able tocompletely create a quality
product that rivals anythingthat Random House would put out
(22:12):
if you're willing to invest yourtime and your treasure with
that. Now having said that, allyou end up with is is a book.
Could be a paper book.
Could be an ebook. So what thatmeans is this the analogy I like
to make there is the same thingabout the tree falling in the
forest. If you create that book,never do any marketing and
promotion of the self publishedbook, never tell anybody about
(22:34):
it, is it even a book ifnobody's ever bought a copy of
it? So the the the authorpromotional platform is even
more important for selfpublishing. So you have to be
prepared to to be that personthat gets out there and beat the
drums.
In the middle is hybridpublishing. And what hybrid
(22:54):
publishing is something that itmay be right for some, but I
want you to think very carefullyabout. These are a group of
companies. I mean, there's afair number that they ask you
for some money to offset theirhard dollar costs Mhmm. Such as,
can you give us some money tooffset the the typesetting or
(23:15):
the page makeup or the printingor this or that?
And then you'll get a muchhigher royalty back. There are
some good hybrid publishingcompanies out there. But I will
say there are a fair number thatall they are is self publishing
in disguise, and they just wantto give you the illusion that
(23:35):
there's a greater marketing anddistribution push between them.
So you really need to grillthem, and I mean grill them over
specifically what they're doingdealing with marketing and
distribution to not make them aself publishing company.
Merry Elkins (23:50):
So give us some examples of of the type of
questions you need to ask?
John Bond (23:55):
What they're gonna say is they're going to say,
well, your book's gonna beavailable through Amazon and
Barnes and Noble, and yourbook's gonna be available to any
bookstore that wants to orderit. But is that really doing
anything? I mean, any book thatgets into the system gets listed
at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.Mhmm. They're gonna say, we're
gonna put it on our social mediaaccount at here at
(24:18):
hybridhybridpublishing.com.
I made that URL up. So we'regonna put it on our social media
account. But how many followersdo they have, and how much is
that influenced people? They'regonna say, we go to these two
big book trade events, and youhave the option of displaying
your book there. Once again, howmuch of your target how many of
(24:39):
your target audience are atthese events?
Mhmm. So what you're gonna wannaknow is of your target audience
let's use romance for anexample. How do they connect
with the romance audience? Howare they into romance specific
book websites or bookstores orthe like? So you're gonna wanna
find out specific thingspecifically things that they're
(25:00):
going to do.
If they always turn around andsay, well, for an additional
$795, you can have your book.
Merry Elkins (25:07):
Or 7,000.
John Bond (25:09):
Yeah. Put or or, know, you can have your book
promoted at the romancebookstores. So all they're doing
is adding on additional feesbased on the initial big fee
that they charged you. So youwanna really impress them. The
more that they squirm, the moreI be would be reticent.
And the more they're happy toanswer your questions and give
(25:29):
you specific details about yourgenre, the more I might be
interested in them being a truehybrid publisher.
Cathy Worthington (25:37):
Good to know. Yeah. Great advice.
Merry Elkins (25:40):
Thank you. Let's talk about ebooks.
John Bond (25:44):
Okay.
Merry Elkins (25:45):
They are obviously the future, But do you believe
that they are the future? Andalso, will people still have
hardback books to read wherethey can hold them in the middle
of the night when they wake uprather than turning on the
screen? Sure. It'll keep you upall night. Talk about ebooks.
John Bond (26:06):
So the the what the one of the good things that come
out of the pandemic was theproof that paper is nowhere near
going away. I mean, paper saw aresurgence at the beginning and
the middle of the pandemic. Andeven now that we're in post or,
or at the or afterwards of thepandemic, you start to see that
paper books still have a highinterest in certain areas. Now
(26:29):
we can all agree that certainthings, encyclopedias,
dictionaries, whatever, havehave been dramatically affected
by the digital revolution. Butwhen it comes down to paper
versus ebooks, it really is avery genre specific thing.
So there are specific genres togo back to, say, young some
young adult books, horror,science fiction, romance. Some
(26:52):
of these really predominate inthe ebook fashion because of the
voraciousness of some of thereaders. But there are plenty of
places where people still wantpaper books, and paper books
still are very popular incertain genres or with certain
certain categories of readers.What I would say is think of it
this way. What you really needto have, as I said before, a
(27:16):
quality idea, a great story totell, something that is of
interest, that's what you're allabout as an author and about
your book.
Worry a little bit less aboutthe format. Just like at one
point, there were only hardbackbooks, and then there were
paperback books. Now now thereare ebooks. So you're really
signing a contract for your ideaand you as an author versus a
(27:40):
specific format. Sometimespeople concentrate on the ebook
because they think, as selfpublishers, it will
significantly reduce the cost,of course, which it would, for
all to be an only available asan ebook versus a paper book
Paper paper book.
So from that point of view,that's the reason why some
people bring that dialogue up,but concentrate more on making
(28:02):
the best quality book, product,or novel you can and worry a
little bit less about the formatis what I'd
Merry Elkins (28:08):
say. Interesting.
Cathy Worthington (28:10):
Yeah. Well, what what's your opinion really
on whether people still readbooks? Are they reading them do
you think it's generational? Arethe boomers reading more than
the younger people?
John Bond (28:26):
Well, let's do a quick poll here. Do the two of
you read books?
Cathy Worthington (28:30):
Yes. I read books. Yeah.
John Bond (28:33):
I'm an I'm an active reader. I I invite everybody to
lot. Yeah. I I invite everybodyto connect with me on Goodreads.
I try to read one one book ormore a week.
And some of them I do some ofthem I do as audiobooks, which
is a great and increasinglypopular format. Yeah. So from
that point of view, I do thinkbooks will continue to have
value. We have to see them in adifferent way. We have a deep
(28:57):
fondness for a picture of ussitting on the subway, seeing
other people reading a paperbook and connecting with them
and thinking, oh, I've read thatbook before.
I wonder what that person's allabout. Some of that's still
taking place. Some people may bereading it on their phone and
not getting the same credit forreading the books they did years
ago. Certainly, books havebecome shorter because of our
(29:20):
decreased attention span andbecause of our love of the love
of things that are shorter. Butthere are still plenty of books
that are immersive, andcertainly the Harry Potter
series from twenty years ago isa prime example of some very
large page count books.
And then the author, KentFollett, seems every one of his
books are 800 or a thousandpages.
Cathy Worthington (29:41):
Yeah.
John Bond (29:42):
So I would say books are still popular. They may skew
shorter, and they may skewdigital unbeknownst to some of
us, but they're just as popular.I think people love good stories
or great information still.
Merry Elkins (29:56):
Yes. And we all excuse me. We all want a place
to escape at times.
John Bond (30:01):
Of course.
Cathy Worthington (30:01):
Yeah. And the way I more than others. I'm
always amazed now when peopleare reading hardcover books
because once the Kindle cameout, I never looked back. I
didn't I read everything onKindle because it's lightweight.
I can prop it up on a pillow.
I don't have to turn the pages.
Merry Elkins (30:20):
Or on your phone.
Cathy Worthington (30:21):
I don't have to have the light on to read. I
love it. And I I read a lot ofbooks, but they're all on the
Kindle.
John Bond (30:30):
Well, I have to say a fair number of people my age
will then start to talk aboutthe the tactile feel of holding
the book. Yeah. I know. And thencertainly either the smell of an
old book or the smell of a newbook and just that feel of being
able to look ahead andunderstand its true length. So I
applaud you for converting overto ebooks, but I also know
(30:51):
there's a fair number of peoplethat love that tactile
sensation.
Merry Elkins (30:55):
I do too. And and frankly, when I I read on my on
my my iPad and when it runs thebattery runs out, guess what? I
can pick up a real book.
Cathy Worthington (31:07):
Yeah. The Kindle But the Kindle even works
outside in the sun, and I liketo read outside. Yeah. The I
just really enjoy it.
Merry Elkins (31:15):
I do too.
John Bond (31:15):
Yeah. The Kindle's really evolved in such a
tremendous fashion. They nowhave something called I think
it's called WhisperSync, whereyou can have a paper,
electronic, and audio version ofit. And wherever you go to, it
then syncs into if you were onaudio and you go to the digital
version, it knows exactly whereyou are and holds your exact
(31:37):
place all the way through. Wow.
So it's really interesting tosee the interplay between those
three.
Cathy Worthington (31:43):
And mine does do that from the Kindle itself
to my iPhone. So if I open upthe Kindle app on the iPhone,
I'll be in the same page.
John Bond (31:52):
Yeah.
Merry Elkins (31:52):
Mine does mine does too. And then But
Cathy Worthington (31:54):
I think the idea of having the Audible be on
the same page would be greatbecause then you can go in the
car and keep reading. Right?
Merry Elkins (32:00):
Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (32:01):
But I I sometimes I don't do a lot of
Audibles because I I I tend tobe thinking about something else
and I miss the point of thebook. And when I'm reading, I I
that never happens.
John Bond (32:13):
I either with audiobooks or with podcasts do a
lot. I I'm I'm able to stillrun, so I'm a runner. And so I
enjoy doing it then. When peoplebring up the zoning out, I do
think sometimes when I'mreading, I get to a page. I'm
like, what did I just read?
So I feel like I feel like I dozone out just as much with paper
books as I do with audiobooks.
Merry Elkins (32:33):
Yeah. Well, especially if it's same way that
when you're driving. Yeah.Sometimes sometimes when you're
driving, you can Sure. Losetrack of where you just were.
Where was I? Where was my mind?Same thing with, yeah, sometimes
I think that perhaps the authormight have lost you somewhere if
your mind wanders. So you haveto be very careful as a writer,
(32:58):
I think, to make sure that youdon't wander off because then
you'll send your reader off.What do you think about that?
John Bond (33:07):
I do I do note authors that are very particular
to read that you really have togo along at every word, some
really great literary fictionbooks that I've read over the
years, and you cannot stray atall. And it's really the height
of a compliment to them thateverything they're saying is
that important. And while I dolove certain books, I do love
(33:30):
Stephen King, sometimes youcould sort of zone out for a
couple pages, and he'sdescribing something about
breakfast. So from that point ofview, those books are a
different kind of enjoyableread. But if you do zone out,
you're like, what did I reallymiss there?
Unless that's where they foundthe dead body. So it does make
me appreciate the authors where,every word matters.
Merry Elkins (33:51):
Well, at least it doesn't put you to sleep.
John Bond (33:53):
Yeah. That's right.
Cathy Worthington (33:54):
And and Mary and I have had a book group for
years, and I have another bookgroup too. And sometimes people
come to the meeting and they'relike, I I just couldn't follow
this, and they're just not closereading it because a couple of
the books we've done, you haveto read every every bit of it.
And it's also choice and good.I'm blanking on the author's
(34:18):
name, but we've read two ofthem. I think it's Powers.
Robert Powers who wroteOverstory.
John Bond (34:24):
Overstory is a great book.
Cathy Worthington (34:26):
Playground. Well, both of those books, my
girlfriends in the book groupare going, this is too hard. And
I'm going, you guys, like, theythink of themselves as literary
people. If you can't read those,it they're so good. Overstory
just took my head off.
I thought it was the best thing.
John Bond (34:44):
Well, first first, I love Overstory, but I will
defend your girlfriends insaying that those are two
serious Major League books. Sofor people to read them and get
through them, kudos to thepeople and the people that
don't, it's tough to say becausethey are two very powerful
books.
Merry Elkins (35:01):
Yep. Well, it's everybody's really busy these
days, and everyone has a shorterattention span. Give give us,
like, two or three ideas of whatyou consider literary fiction as
far as the books that you'veread and the authors.
John Bond (35:17):
Oh, and this is where my memory starts to fail me over
over exact names. I you on thespot. No. No. That's okay.
I am a fan from when I wasyounger of the John Updike's and
Philip Ross of the world
Merry Elkins (35:31):
Oh.
John Bond (35:32):
Who who really wrote some very memorable characters.
John Updike with the rabbit isrich person. I converted years
ago to a Japanese author who'svery popular called Haruki
Murakami.
Merry Elkins (35:46):
Murakami.
John Bond (35:47):
And Murakami. He really just is a tremendous
writer and really very very,very interesting and has some
really novel concepts. I am afan of Margaret Atwood, of
course, of Handmaid's Tale fameand some of the other works that
she's done. And then I'm a fanof and I'm gonna send this to
(36:09):
you because I'm not gonna beable to think of it. The woman
that wrote Brokeback Mountain isa short story writer.
Oh. And then she also is a novelwriter, so I'm I'm unable to
grab that name either.
Merry Elkins (36:22):
Yes.
Cathy Worthington (36:24):
So Yeah.
Merry Elkins (36:25):
What about novels that you considered good that
perhaps people could use forcomps these days? Do you have
any recommendations on those?
John Bond (36:37):
What I would do is develop, as you said, a a
reading group that you're partof that's willing to read in
your genre, and then start toconnect with people that are in
that genre genre other thanyourself and start to find out
what their favorite titles are.People loved people who are in
book readers love to talk aboutbooks even when they don't
(36:57):
remember the authors' names.
Cathy Worthington (36:59):
Mhmm.
John Bond (36:59):
And then start to connect with those people in
that group and say, oh, I seeyou really like, historical
fiction or science fiction orwhatever. What are some of your
favorites? So by using the sixdegrees of separation idea and
connecting with like readers, Ithink are some of the best way
to find those comp books.They're just
Merry Elkins (37:20):
so favorites of contemporary write you know,
contemporary novels?
John Bond (37:25):
Of contemporary literary fiction?
Merry Elkins (37:27):
Or just whatever pleases you that may not be
considered literary fiction.
John Bond (37:34):
I I wish I had them right now on my on the tip of my
tongue. I'm sorry I don't havethem in in that exact way.
Merry Elkins (37:41):
To pin you to the wall there. Just curious. Well,
so
John Bond (37:44):
I mean
Cathy Worthington (37:45):
So so, Josiah, I'm I'm writing a book,
and I I I'm gonna I'm gonna getit together. I don't mean
literally because I haven'twritten a book. But how do I
know there's a market for mybook?
John Bond (38:02):
Well, I think, first of all, if you if you can come
to if you can come to peace withclassifying your book into a
genre Mhmm. I think I think thenthere's going to be a market for
it. What the difference is iswhether you're satisfied with
the size of your market. So ifyou said there is a young adult
(38:24):
fantasy novel
Merry Elkins (38:25):
Mhmm.
John Bond (38:26):
It's gonna be an enormous market that you have.
Merry Elkins (38:29):
Right.
John Bond (38:29):
Whereas if you say it's historical fiction, and
it's about the late RomanEmpire, It's a smaller genre,
but there is one there. And ifyou say it's a LGBTQ horror
novel, then you're gonna say,oh, that's interesting. I wonder
what the size of that market is.So there are gonna be markets
(38:50):
once you come to the agreementthat you're gonna classify it.
And the reason why I say youcome to p you come to peace
with, classifying it is many,many people I talk to say, well,
my book spans many genres.
It could be in this section ofthe bookstore, in this section
of the bookstore, this section.And in point of fact, no book is
(39:11):
in multiple sections or very fewbooks are in multiple sections.
And so you have to say, althoughmy book may be of interest to
different readers, if I'm gonnago look for it in a Barnes and
Noble store or similar or yourlocal bookstore, they're only
gonna have it at one place. Whatis that one place? So you have
to come you have to come topeace with classifying your book
(39:32):
and having that, if you'refamiliar with the term, elevator
pitch, where you can explain thebook in a minute and a half to
somebody, then I think thatyou're gonna find a a a market
for it.
Could be a small market. Couldbe a large market.
Cathy Worthington (39:45):
Yeah. Good advice.
Merry Elkins (39:48):
Thank you. Very good. It's, so talking about
promotion again. Are there otherI mean, you you covered this in
a way as far as social mediaand, blogs, but are there other
ways to promote your book? Arethere better ways to promote
your book?
John Bond (40:09):
I think what what the difference is is where your
audience is. That's what thedifference is. So if we're
writing a book about leadershipin the IT field, you're gonna
wanna be on LinkedIn. And thenbeing on, let's say, Instagram
matters a little bit less. Ifyour book is about civil war
reenactors, which I'm gonnaclassify I'm not, but I'm gonna
(40:31):
classify as being some older menon the East Coast, what we what
do they follow, or what do theyread that's of interest to them?
I'm sure there's a civil warreenactors podcast that you'd
wanna check out. I'm surethere's a magazine or newsletter
that you'd wanna check out. Andif you're, writing a young adult
romance, I'm sure there's a bookTikTok about it, and I'm sure
(40:55):
there's an Instagram there areInstagram accounts about it. So
you're gonna wanna find outwhere your audience is and
concentrate on that. Going backto your question, I think it was
your question, Mary, that said,do you have to be the person in
your audience, or can you writeoutside the audience?
This is an exact example of,certainly, you can write
outside, but you have to have away to connect with them, Know
(41:19):
them personally, have them readand give feedback on your book,
and give them permission to say,oh, here's the way I find out
about new books. Word-of-mouth,obviously, one. But then what's
number two? I go to TikTok or Igo to my social media account or
I watch, I read the New YorkTimes book review or whatever
the case may be. So find outwhere your audience is.
(41:42):
And if you're not sure, thenconnect with those people that
are your target audience.
Cathy Worthington (41:47):
And should I ever pay an editor to improve my
manuscript?
John Bond (41:54):
I've got welcome and unwelcome news here. So, I tell
people this is not required, butI tell people, and I myself am a
am a novel writer, and I didn'twelcome this advice. But if you
write a novel, what you shoulddo is write your first three
novels, get them in completefinal form, and stick them in a
(42:15):
drawer and never look at themagain.
Merry Elkins (42:19):
Oh. If you even finish them.
Cathy Worthington (42:22):
That's gonna make people cry.
John Bond (42:24):
I know. I know. Listen up. There's some good
news here
Cathy Worthington (42:27):
coming. Okay.
John Bond (42:28):
Then when you write the fourth one, you've really
mastered your craft. So you haveunderstood a little bit more
about how to make a greatproduct. You could someday go
back to those other novels andrewrite them or revisit them,
but it's very tough to say, I'mgonna write my first novel, and
I'm gonna go have it picked upby an agent and then published
by Random House. It's like inyour first year of tennis saying
(42:50):
you're gonna win the US Open. SoI'm I'm just being honest.
However, if you are a student ofthe written word and you have
been a voracious reader all yourlife, if you're willing to join
a writer's group, a local inperson's writer's group, I'm a
member of two, and I highlyrecommend it. If you're willing
to give your work to people forthem to give you honest feedback
(43:14):
on, and if you're willing toreally accept their their their
comments and really revise it asopposed to dismiss it, then you
may not have to do the threenovels in the drawer idea. When
you go to an editor, you thething you're gonna wanna know
most is what qualifications theyhave and what you expect them to
(43:36):
do and what they expect to getback to you. Some of them will
be very granular related.They're gonna wanna tell you
about that versus which and, youknow, these different parts of
grammar that are very important.
But nobody's ever said, man,that was a terrible story. I
didn't connect with thecharacters. But, man, it was
(43:57):
grammatically correct.
Cathy Worthington (43:58):
So people people
John Bond (44:01):
really care about the story part, and I don't wanna
discount the the the grammarpart. So you're gonna wanna
know, is your editor just anadvanced person that's giving
grammar advice, or are theyreally giving story and
structure advice? If you'regonna pay somebody, first of
all, it'd probably be a fair sumof money. I would ask them for
references from other authorsthey've done similar work for.
(44:23):
Contact those authors and askhow happy they are with them and
ask how much rewriting they did.
So if you're not gonna do thethree novels and the thing and
be very and be very depressedand turn this podcast off, which
I don't want people to, thenwhat you're gonna wanna do is do
a lot of writing, do a lot ofreading, and be open to feedback
(44:45):
and criticism and be willing torevise.
Merry Elkins (44:48):
That's great. Great. Yeah. So, John, what
would you like our boomeraudience and other listeners to
have as a takeaway today?
John Bond (44:59):
Everybody about twenty years ago, there was a
big survey where they surveyedpeople and said, do you have a
book in you? 81% of all adultssaid they had a book in them.
This is not an uncommonresponse, and I believe the
older you are, the more likelyyou are to feel you have a book
in you. Expressing oneself is ahuman need and a a human, it
(45:23):
gives you great joy to do it. Sowhether it's in the form of
writing notes to yourgrandchildren or writing your
first novel or writing blogposts or whatever it is that you
wanna do, it's a human thing foryou to do.
It could be literally writing.It could be typing on their
computer. It could be recordingYouTube videos, but expressing
yourself has great value. Don'tas don't be as concerned with
(45:47):
nobody cares what I think, orI'm never gonna get published by
Random House. I always say topeople, if your great great
grandmother had written severalshort stories and several essays
about her life, just think ofthe tremendous value you would
put in those documents.
And for you to then say, nobodycares about what I think or
(46:10):
nobody's interested in in it orI'm not a gifted writer, those
same efforts, however small orlarge, will be greatly
appreciated by the people thatknow you now as well as in the
future, and I think it's gonnabring you great joy.
Merry Elkins (46:23):
Oh, I
Cathy Worthington (46:24):
love that.
Merry Elkins (46:25):
That gives me chills. That was just beautiful.
Thank you.
John Bond (46:28):
Thank you.
Merry Elkins (46:29):
Thank you so much, John. Our guest today on Late
Boomers has been author andpublishing consultant John Bond.
You can find out more about himand what he offers at publishing
at websitepublishingfundamentals.com.
Thank you so much. That was sovaluable.
Cathy Worthington (46:49):
And thank you for listening to our thanks for
listening to our late boomerspodcast and subscribing to our
late boomers podcast channel onYouTube. Listen in next week
when we will have anotherinspiring guest for you. You can
listen on any podcast platform,and we do appreciate you. Please
follow us on Instagram at I amKathy Worthington and at I am
(47:11):
Mary Alkins and at late boomers.And thanks again to John Bond.
John Bond (47:17):
It was a pleasure meeting both of you. This was a
real joy, and I and I lookforward to future conversations.
Merry Elkins (47:23):
Great. Way.
Cathy Worthington (47:33):
Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the
podcast that is your guide tocreating a third act with style,
power, and impact. Please visitour website and get in touch
with us at late boomers dot biz.If you would like to listen to
or download other episodes oflate boomers, go to
ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry Elkins (47:55):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcast, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use of the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.
This is the EWN Podcast Network.
Cathy Worthington (00:14):
Welcome to late boomers, our podcast guide
to creating your third act withstyle, power, and impact. Hi.
I'm Kathy Worthington.
Merry Elkins (00:24):
And I'm Mary Elkins. Join us as we bring you
conversations withentrepreneurs, entertainers, and
people with vision who aremaking a difference in the
world.
Cathy Worthington (00:34):
Everyone has a story, and we'll take you
along for the ride on eachinterview, recounting the
journey our guests have taken toget where they are, inspiring
you to create your own path tosuccess. Let's get started.
Hello. I'm Kathy Worthington welcoming you
(00:55):
to a new edition of lateboomers, and I'm here with my
cohost, Mary Elkins. Today, weare going to chat with editor,
publisher, author, John Bond. Hehas overseen the publishing of
500 books.
Merry Elkins (01:09):
And I'm Mary Elkins. John is the author of a
three book series, the LittleGuides. He takes authors from
idea to plan and to findingpublishing. All of us boomers
who have books brewing in usneed to get to know him.
Welcome, John.
John Bond (01:25):
Well, thank you very much for having me on today.
It's a pleasure to meet both ofyou, and I really appreciate the
opportunity to speak to you andyour audience.
Merry Elkins (01:33):
Well, we appreciate your being here too.
Cathy Worthington (01:36):
It's a good subject for us. Please tell us a
little bit how you got startedon this path to counseling
authors. What led up to this?
John Bond (01:46):
Well, when I was a preteen, my, I grew up in Bucks
County in Pennsylvania. Myparents used to go to house
auctions, and many of them theywent to and were in Princeton,
New Jersey. And at the very endof the auction, the books would
go because nobody wanted to takethe books away. So they would
buy for a couple dollars or $5these ten, twenty boxes of
(02:08):
really interesting books, andyoung John just dove into
looking at all these interestingthings and thinking about the
stories that were in all of themand then starting to collect
them. Early on, I worked as alibrarian in a high school, and
then I determined I wanted to dosomething else.
So I had the opportunity to geta position at a publishing
(02:29):
company in South Jersey, whichis where I live. And I started
as an editor and became managingeditor and then book publisher
and eventually chief contentofficer. It was a great
opportunity, and I met with sometremendous people on the author
side, but also on the publishingside. And about ten years ago,
after having worked there forthirty years, I determined I
(02:50):
wanted
Merry Elkins (02:51):
What company?
John Bond (02:52):
The name of the company was Slack Incorporated.
It goes by the YNO Group now. Itis an academic publisher. And so
about ten years ago, Idetermined I wanted to do
something different, and Istarted doing publishing
consulting, but I also do otherthings as well now. And I
connect with authors orpublishers or associations, and
(03:14):
I help them, think throughdeveloping great content and
most importantly, deliveringgreat content.
So it's been a journey toconnect within, authors and to
have the experience of being anauthor myself.
Merry Elkins (03:27):
Wow. That's great. Well, how does one, other than
sitting down at the computer orat your notepad, how does one
get started writing a book?
John Bond (03:40):
It's a great question. I think the really,
the first part is askingyourself what your motivation
is. Do you just want to expressyourself? Do you have a story to
tell? Are you interested inbeing a storyteller?
Do you have a nonfiction bookthat you would like to write? So
thinking through yourmotivations, always suggest, is
the first place to start. Mhmm.And most likely, in your mind,
(04:02):
maybe for years, maybe fordecades, you've been thinking
about writing. And maybe therehave been times when it was in
high school or college or as ayoung adult or beyond that you
started to make small attemptsat a short story or an essay or
a blog post.
And then you start to think,well, maybe I wanna do more than
just this. At that point Mhmm.Start to think through the form
(04:25):
that your work best fits. As Isaid, it could be a short story.
It could be a novel.
What would the genre be? Ormaybe you're interested in
writing for the Internet and,like I said, a blog post or
something else. And then startto think through what you want
to say. At the end of the day,the most important thing is it
really be from the heart it'ssomething that's very important
(04:46):
to you and something you reallywant to express, and that you
really use quality as yourguide. So you wanna use
something that speaks to otherpeople and that they feel is
gonna touch them as well.
I'm not talking about grammar,and and, of course, that's
important. I'm talking abouthave a message that you know
(05:06):
resonates with your coreaudience. However small that
might be, because the beauty ofthe days of the Internet and
Amazon is you can have a veryniche topic and definitely reach
your audience, or you can have avery broad topic. You could
wanna be the the next StephanieMyers or Kirk or or Kurt
Vonnegut or Stephen King. Andthat's a great that's a great
(05:29):
goal to have.
But so really starting out withwhat your message is and what
the format that you wannadeliver it in.
Merry Elkins (05:37):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (05:40):
And then say we get that together, how do we
find an agent?
John Bond (05:46):
Oh, wow. We we jumped we jumped a bunch of steps, but
I'm so I'm gonna pull it up.
Cathy Worthington (05:50):
I wanna I wanna we can go back and pick up
the steps.
John Bond (05:53):
No. No. No. So here, let's let's do that.
Cathy Worthington (05:56):
I'm happy to pick up the steps.
John Bond (05:58):
No. Let's do that. Let's let's say you've written
your
Cathy Worthington (06:01):
novel. Agent?
John Bond (06:02):
Okay. Absolutely. Let's do
Cathy Worthington (06:04):
it. Okay.
John Bond (06:05):
Let's let's say you've written your novel, and
then let's say you've had abunch of people you know that
are the target audience read itand give you honest feedback.
I'm not talking about yourspouse or your parent or your
best friend. I'm talking aboutpeople that are the target
audience, and you've given thempermission to give you honest
feedback. You've looked at allthe feedback, and you've been
(06:28):
honest with yourself. Some of itprobably resonates and is true.
Some of it maybe isn't the isn'tthe image of what you want or
the picture of what you want foryour for your book, and you've
made those changes. Now you haveyour final draft of your novel
that you have really done thebest job that you could possibly
do, and that's really key. Nowyou're gonna go look for a way
(06:50):
to publish. So there are twoavenues. You can seek a
publisher, and there are plentyof publishers that allow you to
approach them directly, or youcan seek an agent.
This goes back again tomotivation. If you want to get
published at Random House or thelike, you're going to need an
agent. They don't acceptunagented requests. Ah. But with
(07:13):
Yeah.
But with some publishers, theyare more than willing to accept
unagented requests. So yourmotivation is really important.
If you wanna be at the top ofthe New York Times bestseller
list or if you wanna be on a onan Oprah like TV show to talk
about your book, then you aregonna need an agent. Let me take
them and set them both asidehere. So for the publisher,
(07:35):
you're gonna really want to knowthe the competitive and
comparable books that are inyour area.
They should be well known. Theyshould be in print. Please don't
say there's nothing like thisthat's out there because there's
all because there's alwayssomething that's competitive for
your book.
Merry Elkins (07:53):
How many books how many books would you need to
come up with for an indiepublisher?
John Bond (07:58):
I think what you should do I think we should do
is you should have a completecensus of what's out there. So
it's not that you have to gothrough every science fiction
book, but you really have toknow the books that compete
directly against yours. I'm notgonna put a number to your
census, but it should take awhile. This is not I sit in a
couple hours while I while I'mwatching TV. When you do send it
(08:21):
into the publisher and and ifthey ask for comparable titles,
I would suggest four to eight,and it really depends on the
niche you're in.
If you're in a very specific
Merry Elkins (08:30):
authors. Right? Four to
John Bond (08:32):
eight different authors. Authors, remember they
should be in print, and theyshould be popular. I would not
suggest self published books ascomparable books unless they are
enormous bestsellers. So youwould also want to look at your
market. Who specifically is yourmarket?
And and what that tells you iswell, first, let me say, don't
(08:53):
say everybody that loves romanceor everybody that loves
espionage is the market. Be morespecific. Think about a profile.
I know that's a bad word, butprofile the people that would be
your target market for yourbook. Use these things to start
to think about the type of agentor publisher that you would like
to approach.
(09:15):
As for agents, there are twogreat databases. I can send them
to you, and you can post them inthe show notes. I don't
Merry Elkins (09:22):
mean great.
John Bond (09:23):
I I don't personally use them. I know people that
have used them that that havereally said good things about
them. There is a fee. It'susually a month by month fee,
but there are people on therethat are agents that you would
wanna go through and thinkcarefully about your genre and
what what what your targetmarket is. When you're looking
(09:45):
for agents, look for ones thatspecialize in your area.
So that's very, very important.If they only want 10 pay a 10
page sample, do not send them a20 page sample. If they only
want x y z, don't send them x yor x y z a. Stick very closely
to the requests or the mandatesfrom the agent, and do not
(10:08):
deviate from them. They'relooking for a reason to cross
you off the list.
One more thing from agent onemore thing from agents, an agent
should never be paid. So if youcome across somebody that said,
for x number of dollars, I'lllook at your book or x number of
dollars, I'll give you feedbackon the market, that's not an
agent. They are somebody that'smaking money off of being an
(10:30):
editor or promotional editor ordevelopmental editor. So they
only get paid through royaltieswhen you when your book is sold.
So be very careful.
A lot of people call themselvesagents that are not really.
Merry Elkins (10:43):
Mhmm.
Cathy Worthington (10:44):
That's interesting because, of course,
Mary and I know that from theentertainment business too. You
you don't pay your agentupfront. They get paid when you
work.
John Bond (10:52):
That's right.
Cathy Worthington (10:52):
So that's really important.
Merry Elkins (10:55):
Absolutely. Good info. I have tons more questions
about this, but, let's talkabout you you you started to
talk about finding a publisher.
John Bond (11:04):
If you wanted So with a pub
Merry Elkins (11:07):
As far as if you we have spoken about, like,
getting the big one of the bigfive. It's Random House,
Penguin. What are the others?
John Bond (11:16):
Yeah. So if you're looking for an independent
publisher that's not one of theones that only accept unagent
only accept agented material,Start to look at the the genres
that they're in and how activethey are. So let's say if you
find a publisher, sometimes aregional, sometimes a medium
sized publisher, or even a smallpublisher that you feel will do
(11:39):
right by you in the traditionalpublishing model, look at what
they're currently publishing. Sosometimes people will do some
research and see, I seesomebody's done this book on
dystopian fiction, and I reallylike that. However, that book
may have been from ten yearsago.
Right. And then you go and lookat what they're currently
publishing, and you find outthat they haven't been
(12:02):
publishing that much. So whattheir current list is from 2024,
'20 '20 '5, and maybe from 2026will be very valuable. They'll
tell you where their where theiremphasis is right now.
Cathy Worthington (12:15):
And you would expect that information to just
be available on the Internet ingeneral, or are you sending an
inquiry letter to them?
John Bond (12:24):
What do you have? If you go to the publisher's
website and you go to their booklisting, many times there'll be
a filter of what's available. Soyou'll be able to filter by most
recent or by year, and you'll beable to scroll through it by the
genre that you're in and seewhat's there. Another thing that
you're able to do is go toAmazon. Amazon's got some great
(12:46):
points.
It's got some negative points.They are, unfortunately, the de
facto people in this market, butthey also are sometimes not the
best friends of publishers andauthors. Having said that, if
you go to Amazon or somethingsimilar and you go to their
advanced search section and youstart to look at similar titles
or titles that you particularlyknow, you'll go and you'll see a
(13:10):
drop down that not only allowsyou to search by author, title,
but also by publisher. So byputting that publisher in there
and then separating andfiltering it by year, you'll be
able to see that information atAmazon. Now when you find it at
the publisher, it's the mostaccurate at the publisher,
whereas Amazon puts in what theyknow, and sometimes they have it
(13:31):
right, and sometimes they don't.
So finding publishers that aredoing good solid work in your
genre that are active in thatarea now versus in the past
would be the best way toproceed. And then you go to
their website. It usually sayshow to submit a proposal or a
book to them. Then once
Merry Elkins (13:50):
again if you would, because I think that
indie publishers require morethan an agent does as far as
what you submit to them. Is thatcorrect?
John Bond (13:59):
That is. Sometimes, even for a novel, they request a
book proposal. A book bookproposal is a 20 to 25 page or
longer document, industryindustry standard of the topics
it covers, and it goes throughand gives you exact information
about what they want about you,an extended table of contents,
(14:20):
the market, as I said, thecompetitive books, and then
something that's very important.Don't everybody groan right now,
but they wanna know about yourauthor promotional platform.
Yes.
And what and what this means istwenty, thirty twenty, thirty,
forty years ago, the publisherwas solely responsible for the
marketing and promotion anddistribution of the book. And
(14:43):
increasingly today, they wantthe author to participate in it
to a certain degree and to beable to connect with their
audience. Do not say to thepublisher, well, I'll do
whatever you want. That's myauthor promotional platform.
They're looking for you tounderstand and be able to
connect with your market.
And that may be through asignificant social media
(15:05):
account, maybe through
Merry Elkins (15:07):
speaking significant on this tell me tell
John Bond (15:10):
me what it really comes down to is your genre and
how much the social mediaaccount is about that. So if you
have your Facebook page thatyour friends and relatives have
all connected with and you have500 connections, that's not
specifically about your book andabout that market. But if you
have, let's say, a Twitteraccount or a x account where
(15:32):
you're only speaking about youngadult books and you have an
active following on there amongpeople that are active in that
area, that will be a moresignificant following. Let's say
you also have a podcast that youdo or you have a YouTube channel
or and and so on. So there areways that they wanna know you
(15:53):
wanna connect with youraudience, and you're gonna
explain to them about your newproject and get them as excited
as you're going to as they wantto be.
So from that point of view, theauthor promotional platform is
you giving exact details overhow you would connect with the
audience. So going back to whatyou were saying, Mary, sometimes
(16:14):
independent publishers willrequest many things from you
more than what an agent may, andone of the things might be that
author promotional platform orthe book proposal.
Merry Elkins (16:26):
A question. What if like, this is the late
boomers podcast. We our audienceis late boomers, boomers, and
above and below. We have youngpeople listening too. But what
if you write a book that is foryounger people, but you are
(16:47):
older?
John Bond (16:49):
Well, I don't think anybody really thinks about when
they think of classic books, theage of what the author was. So
whoever wrote The Joy ofCooking, nobody's really thought
how old were they when theywrote it because what they're
really going by is how great therecipes are and how great the
instructions are. So from thatpoint of view, I think if you
(17:11):
speak if we're talking about anovel here, if you speak in a
genuine voice and you have amessage or a story that you
wanna tell that will connect,whether it be timeless or geared
towards a specific, time oflife, what really matters is
your voice and the genuinenessgenuineness of it. Now to be
honest, if you're selling anovel to 25 year old men, sure,
(17:38):
it would be better if you were a25 year old man, but at the end
of the day, it's your story andthe genuineness of it that
matters. So I don't think it'ssolely the criteria, but of
course, it does help with beingconnected through that author
promotional platform.
Cathy Worthington (17:53):
It's really difficult because authors have
to use the other side of theirbrain to do all the marketing,
and it's not the side of thebrain that they use when they
sit in a room writing on thecomputer or a notepad. It's a
completely different switch. Butyou're saying but sounds to me
like if you're gonna write, say,a novel, you need to be
(18:17):
developing your social media theentire time you're writing the
novel.
Merry Elkins (18:21):
That's right.
Cathy Worthington (18:22):
So that you're ready going out of the
gate. You can't start creatingsocial me social media
followings, to my experience,take two to two, three, four
years to accumulate. You know,if you're gonna get a bunch of
followers, if you've got a nichemarket, these kind of things.
It's not overnight. So what doyou tell people about that?
John Bond (18:44):
You've hit on something that's very important.
I have to say I've had theexperience of speaking to many
authors that say, simply want towrite the book, and I want
nothing to do with marketing orpromoting it. I get that. And I
and I understand thatperspective, and that was a
perspective for many years, theforties, fifties, sixties,
seventies, eighties, maybe intothe nineties, maybe even into
(19:06):
the o's, but that's really notthe situation as much today.
Remember, it doesn't all fall onyour shoulders, but it is
important because you are theperson that is the best
ambassador, the best advocatefor your book.
You're gonna have thatenthusiasm. When I see the two
of you and the genuineness ofyour interest and enthusiasm for
(19:27):
doing what you're doing rightnow, nobody can do this for you.
Somebody couldn't come in as anintern and promote your podcast
the way the two of you do withyour energy and enthusiasm right
now. Going back to your commentabout starting early, it's very,
very important. You are correct.
While you're thinking of youridea, that is the time not for
(19:50):
you to plan social media to getfollowers, but that's the time
for you to start to think withhow you're gonna connect with
your audience, and it can takemany forms. The one thing I do
wanna caution with social media,and I think a little bit, Kathy,
you fell into the trap there, isby it's a place to gain
(20:12):
followers. And, really, what youhave to think about for whatever
the channel you do, whether it'sa podcast or social media,
speaking engagements, writingguest blogs, doing a YouTube
channel, speaking live, you haveto do it as a genuine thing that
brings you joy and brings youenergy to connect with that
(20:33):
audience. The thing I'm reallyinterested in when I speak with
authors one on one, I'm reallyinterested in hearing their idea
and helping them to whatevertheir motivation is to try to
find a place that's right forthem. It could just be self
publishing, and they're gonnahave a few hundred books that
they're able to distribute tofriends, or it could be that
(20:53):
random house moonshot that wetalked about.
So from that point of view, youreally have to be into it and be
really excited about doing it asopposed to, let's say, at the
end of your novel, you clickspell check, and you go back and
say, this is the thing I had todo. So there has to be a bit of
energy enthusiasm for it. And ifit's done as a responsibility,
(21:17):
it will lack a little bit ofwhat it needs.
Cathy Worthington (21:20):
Mhmm. Right. I get that. When do you usually
tell people they should selfpublish?
John Bond (21:28):
So let's use three different terms. There's self
publishing, there's hybridpublishing, and traditional
publishing. Traditionalpublishing is the random house
model. You give it to them, theytake all the responsibility,
they pay all the money, and theypay you a royalty. Some people
complain about how much aroyalty is, but at the end of
the day, if you're a firstnovelist or a first time author,
(21:49):
you're happy to have a bookcontract.
Merry Elkins (21:51):
That's right.
John Bond (21:51):
Self publishing years ago was called Vanity Press, and
it had a bad name to it. Buttoday, it's something completely
different. If you use a servicelike Amazon Kindle Direct or
IngramSpark, you're able tocompletely create a quality
product that rivals anythingthat Random House would put out
(22:12):
if you're willing to invest yourtime and your treasure with
that. Now having said that, allyou end up with is is a book.
Could be a paper book.
Could be an ebook. So what thatmeans is this the analogy I like
to make there is the same thingabout the tree falling in the
forest. If you create that book,never do any marketing and
promotion of the self publishedbook, never tell anybody about
(22:34):
it, is it even a book ifnobody's ever bought a copy of
it? So the the the authorpromotional platform is even
more important for selfpublishing. So you have to be
prepared to to be that personthat gets out there and beat the
drums.
In the middle is hybridpublishing. And what hybrid
(22:54):
publishing is something that itmay be right for some, but I
want you to think very carefullyabout. These are a group of
companies. I mean, there's afair number that they ask you
for some money to offset theirhard dollar costs Mhmm. Such as,
can you give us some money tooffset the the typesetting or
(23:15):
the page makeup or the printingor this or that?
And then you'll get a muchhigher royalty back. There are
some good hybrid publishingcompanies out there. But I will
say there are a fair number thatall they are is self publishing
in disguise, and they just wantto give you the illusion that
(23:35):
there's a greater marketing anddistribution push between them.
So you really need to grillthem, and I mean grill them over
specifically what they're doingdealing with marketing and
distribution to not make them aself publishing company.
Merry Elkins (23:50):
So give us some examples of of the type of
questions you need to ask?
John Bond (23:55):
What they're gonna say is they're going to say,
well, your book's gonna beavailable through Amazon and
Barnes and Noble, and yourbook's gonna be available to any
bookstore that wants to orderit. But is that really doing
anything? I mean, any book thatgets into the system gets listed
at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.Mhmm. They're gonna say, we're
gonna put it on our social mediaaccount at here at
(24:18):
hybridhybridpublishing.com.
I made that URL up. So we'regonna put it on our social media
account. But how many followersdo they have, and how much is
that influenced people? They'regonna say, we go to these two
big book trade events, and youhave the option of displaying
your book there. Once again, howmuch of your target how many of
(24:39):
your target audience are atthese events?
Mhmm. So what you're gonna wannaknow is of your target audience
let's use romance for anexample. How do they connect
with the romance audience? Howare they into romance specific
book websites or bookstores orthe like? So you're gonna wanna
find out specific thingspecifically things that they're
(25:00):
going to do.
If they always turn around andsay, well, for an additional
$795, you can have your book.
Merry Elkins (25:07):
Or 7,000.
John Bond (25:09):
Yeah. Put or or, know, you can have your book
promoted at the romancebookstores. So all they're doing
is adding on additional feesbased on the initial big fee
that they charged you. So youwanna really impress them. The
more that they squirm, the moreI be would be reticent.
And the more they're happy toanswer your questions and give
(25:29):
you specific details about yourgenre, the more I might be
interested in them being a truehybrid publisher.
Cathy Worthington (25:37):
Good to know. Yeah. Great advice.
Merry Elkins (25:40):
Thank you. Let's talk about ebooks.
John Bond (25:44):
Okay.
Merry Elkins (25:45):
They are obviously the future, But do you believe
that they are the future? Andalso, will people still have
hardback books to read wherethey can hold them in the middle
of the night when they wake uprather than turning on the
screen? Sure. It'll keep you upall night. Talk about ebooks.
John Bond (26:06):
So the the what the one of the good things that come
out of the pandemic was theproof that paper is nowhere near
going away. I mean, paper saw aresurgence at the beginning and
the middle of the pandemic. Andeven now that we're in post or,
or at the or afterwards of thepandemic, you start to see that
paper books still have a highinterest in certain areas. Now
(26:29):
we can all agree that certainthings, encyclopedias,
dictionaries, whatever, havehave been dramatically affected
by the digital revolution. Butwhen it comes down to paper
versus ebooks, it really is avery genre specific thing.
So there are specific genres togo back to, say, young some
young adult books, horror,science fiction, romance. Some
(26:52):
of these really predominate inthe ebook fashion because of the
voraciousness of some of thereaders. But there are plenty of
places where people still wantpaper books, and paper books
still are very popular incertain genres or with certain
certain categories of readers.What I would say is think of it
this way. What you really needto have, as I said before, a
(27:16):
quality idea, a great story totell, something that is of
interest, that's what you're allabout as an author and about
your book.
Worry a little bit less aboutthe format. Just like at one
point, there were only hardbackbooks, and then there were
paperback books. Now now thereare ebooks. So you're really
signing a contract for your ideaand you as an author versus a
(27:40):
specific format. Sometimespeople concentrate on the ebook
because they think, as selfpublishers, it will
significantly reduce the cost,of course, which it would, for
all to be an only available asan ebook versus a paper book
Paper paper book.
So from that point of view,that's the reason why some
people bring that dialogue up,but concentrate more on making
(28:02):
the best quality book, product,or novel you can and worry a
little bit less about the formatis what I'd
Merry Elkins (28:08):
say. Interesting.
Cathy Worthington (28:10):
Yeah. Well, what what's your opinion really
on whether people still readbooks? Are they reading them do
you think it's generational? Arethe boomers reading more than
the younger people?
John Bond (28:26):
Well, let's do a quick poll here. Do the two of
you read books?
Cathy Worthington (28:30):
Yes. I read books. Yeah.
John Bond (28:33):
I'm an I'm an active reader. I I invite everybody to
lot. Yeah. I I invite everybodyto connect with me on Goodreads.
I try to read one one book ormore a week.
And some of them I do some ofthem I do as audiobooks, which
is a great and increasinglypopular format. Yeah. So from
that point of view, I do thinkbooks will continue to have
value. We have to see them in adifferent way. We have a deep
(28:57):
fondness for a picture of ussitting on the subway, seeing
other people reading a paperbook and connecting with them
and thinking, oh, I've read thatbook before.
I wonder what that person's allabout. Some of that's still
taking place. Some people may bereading it on their phone and
not getting the same credit forreading the books they did years
ago. Certainly, books havebecome shorter because of our
(29:20):
decreased attention span andbecause of our love of the love
of things that are shorter. Butthere are still plenty of books
that are immersive, andcertainly the Harry Potter
series from twenty years ago isa prime example of some very
large page count books.
And then the author, KentFollett, seems every one of his
books are 800 or a thousandpages.
Cathy Worthington (29:41):
Yeah.
John Bond (29:42):
So I would say books are still popular. They may skew
shorter, and they may skewdigital unbeknownst to some of
us, but they're just as popular.I think people love good stories
or great information still.
Merry Elkins (29:56):
Yes. And we all excuse me. We all want a place
to escape at times.
John Bond (30:01):
Of course.
Cathy Worthington (30:01):
Yeah. And the way I more than others. I'm
always amazed now when peopleare reading hardcover books
because once the Kindle cameout, I never looked back. I
didn't I read everything onKindle because it's lightweight.
I can prop it up on a pillow.
I don't have to turn the pages.
Merry Elkins (30:20):
Or on your phone.
Cathy Worthington (30:21):
I don't have to have the light on to read. I
love it. And I I read a lot ofbooks, but they're all on the
Kindle.
John Bond (30:30):
Well, I have to say a fair number of people my age
will then start to talk aboutthe the tactile feel of holding
the book. Yeah. I know. And thencertainly either the smell of an
old book or the smell of a newbook and just that feel of being
able to look ahead andunderstand its true length. So I
applaud you for converting overto ebooks, but I also know
(30:51):
there's a fair number of peoplethat love that tactile
sensation.
Merry Elkins (30:55):
I do too. And and frankly, when I I read on my on
my my iPad and when it runs thebattery runs out, guess what? I
can pick up a real book.
Cathy Worthington (31:07):
Yeah. The Kindle But the Kindle even works
outside in the sun, and I liketo read outside. Yeah. The I
just really enjoy it.
Merry Elkins (31:15):
I do too.
John Bond (31:15):
Yeah. The Kindle's really evolved in such a
tremendous fashion. They nowhave something called I think
it's called WhisperSync, whereyou can have a paper,
electronic, and audio version ofit. And wherever you go to, it
then syncs into if you were onaudio and you go to the digital
version, it knows exactly whereyou are and holds your exact
(31:37):
place all the way through. Wow.
So it's really interesting tosee the interplay between those
three.
Cathy Worthington (31:43):
And mine does do that from the Kindle itself
to my iPhone. So if I open upthe Kindle app on the iPhone,
I'll be in the same page.
John Bond (31:52):
Yeah.
Merry Elkins (31:52):
Mine does mine does too. And then But
Cathy Worthington (31:54):
I think the idea of having the Audible be on
the same page would be greatbecause then you can go in the
car and keep reading. Right?
Merry Elkins (32:00):
Yeah.
Cathy Worthington (32:01):
But I I sometimes I don't do a lot of
Audibles because I I I tend tobe thinking about something else
and I miss the point of thebook. And when I'm reading, I I
that never happens.
John Bond (32:13):
I either with audiobooks or with podcasts do a
lot. I I'm I'm able to stillrun, so I'm a runner. And so I
enjoy doing it then. When peoplebring up the zoning out, I do
think sometimes when I'mreading, I get to a page. I'm
like, what did I just read?
So I feel like I feel like I dozone out just as much with paper
books as I do with audiobooks.
Merry Elkins (32:33):
Yeah. Well, especially if it's same way that
when you're driving. Yeah.Sometimes sometimes when you're
driving, you can Sure. Losetrack of where you just were.
Where was I? Where was my mind?Same thing with, yeah, sometimes
I think that perhaps the authormight have lost you somewhere if
your mind wanders. So you haveto be very careful as a writer,
(32:58):
I think, to make sure that youdon't wander off because then
you'll send your reader off.What do you think about that?
John Bond (33:07):
I do I do note authors that are very particular
to read that you really have togo along at every word, some
really great literary fictionbooks that I've read over the
years, and you cannot stray atall. And it's really the height
of a compliment to them thateverything they're saying is
that important. And while I dolove certain books, I do love
(33:30):
Stephen King, sometimes youcould sort of zone out for a
couple pages, and he'sdescribing something about
breakfast. So from that point ofview, those books are a
different kind of enjoyableread. But if you do zone out,
you're like, what did I reallymiss there?
Unless that's where they foundthe dead body. So it does make
me appreciate the authors where,every word matters.
Merry Elkins (33:51):
Well, at least it doesn't put you to sleep.
John Bond (33:53):
Yeah. That's right.
Cathy Worthington (33:54):
And and Mary and I have had a book group for
years, and I have another bookgroup too. And sometimes people
come to the meeting and they'relike, I I just couldn't follow
this, and they're just not closereading it because a couple of
the books we've done, you haveto read every every bit of it.
And it's also choice and good.I'm blanking on the author's
(34:18):
name, but we've read two ofthem. I think it's Powers.
Robert Powers who wroteOverstory.
John Bond (34:24):
Overstory is a great book.
Cathy Worthington (34:26):
Playground. Well, both of those books, my
girlfriends in the book groupare going, this is too hard. And
I'm going, you guys, like, theythink of themselves as literary
people. If you can't read those,it they're so good. Overstory
just took my head off.
I thought it was the best thing.
John Bond (34:44):
Well, first first, I love Overstory, but I will
defend your girlfriends insaying that those are two
serious Major League books. Sofor people to read them and get
through them, kudos to thepeople and the people that
don't, it's tough to say becausethey are two very powerful
books.
Merry Elkins (35:01):
Yep. Well, it's everybody's really busy these
days, and everyone has a shorterattention span. Give give us,
like, two or three ideas of whatyou consider literary fiction as
far as the books that you'veread and the authors.
John Bond (35:17):
Oh, and this is where my memory starts to fail me over
over exact names. I you on thespot. No. No. That's okay.
I am a fan from when I wasyounger of the John Updike's and
Philip Ross of the world
Merry Elkins (35:31):
Oh.
John Bond (35:32):
Who who really wrote some very memorable characters.
John Updike with the rabbit isrich person. I converted years
ago to a Japanese author who'svery popular called Haruki
Murakami.
Merry Elkins (35:46):
Murakami.
John Bond (35:47):
And Murakami. He really just is a tremendous
writer and really very very,very interesting and has some
really novel concepts. I am afan of Margaret Atwood, of
course, of Handmaid's Tale fameand some of the other works that
she's done. And then I'm a fanof and I'm gonna send this to
(36:09):
you because I'm not gonna beable to think of it. The woman
that wrote Brokeback Mountain isa short story writer.
Oh. And then she also is a novelwriter, so I'm I'm unable to
grab that name either.
Merry Elkins (36:22):
Yes.
Cathy Worthington (36:24):
So Yeah.
Merry Elkins (36:25):
What about novels that you considered good that
perhaps people could use forcomps these days? Do you have
any recommendations on those?
John Bond (36:37):
What I would do is develop, as you said, a a
reading group that you're partof that's willing to read in
your genre, and then start toconnect with people that are in
that genre genre other thanyourself and start to find out
what their favorite titles are.People loved people who are in
book readers love to talk aboutbooks even when they don't
(36:57):
remember the authors' names.
Cathy Worthington (36:59):
Mhmm.
John Bond (36:59):
And then start to connect with those people in
that group and say, oh, I seeyou really like, historical
fiction or science fiction orwhatever. What are some of your
favorites? So by using the sixdegrees of separation idea and
connecting with like readers, Ithink are some of the best way
to find those comp books.They're just
Merry Elkins (37:20):
so favorites of contemporary write you know,
contemporary novels?
John Bond (37:25):
Of contemporary literary fiction?
Merry Elkins (37:27):
Or just whatever pleases you that may not be
considered literary fiction.
John Bond (37:34):
I I wish I had them right now on my on the tip of my
tongue. I'm sorry I don't havethem in in that exact way.
Merry Elkins (37:41):
To pin you to the wall there. Just curious. Well,
so
John Bond (37:44):
I mean
Cathy Worthington (37:45):
So so, Josiah, I'm I'm writing a book,
and I I I'm gonna I'm gonna getit together. I don't mean
literally because I haven'twritten a book. But how do I
know there's a market for mybook?
John Bond (38:02):
Well, I think, first of all, if you if you can come
to if you can come to peace withclassifying your book into a
genre Mhmm. I think I think thenthere's going to be a market for
it. What the difference is iswhether you're satisfied with
the size of your market. So ifyou said there is a young adult
(38:24):
fantasy novel
Merry Elkins (38:25):
Mhmm.
John Bond (38:26):
It's gonna be an enormous market that you have.
Merry Elkins (38:29):
Right.
John Bond (38:29):
Whereas if you say it's historical fiction, and
it's about the late RomanEmpire, It's a smaller genre,
but there is one there. And ifyou say it's a LGBTQ horror
novel, then you're gonna say,oh, that's interesting. I wonder
what the size of that market is.So there are gonna be markets
(38:50):
once you come to the agreementthat you're gonna classify it.
And the reason why I say youcome to p you come to peace
with, classifying it is many,many people I talk to say, well,
my book spans many genres.
It could be in this section ofthe bookstore, in this section
of the bookstore, this section.And in point of fact, no book is
(39:11):
in multiple sections or very fewbooks are in multiple sections.
And so you have to say, althoughmy book may be of interest to
different readers, if I'm gonnago look for it in a Barnes and
Noble store or similar or yourlocal bookstore, they're only
gonna have it at one place. Whatis that one place? So you have
to come you have to come topeace with classifying your book
(39:32):
and having that, if you'refamiliar with the term, elevator
pitch, where you can explain thebook in a minute and a half to
somebody, then I think thatyou're gonna find a a a market
for it.
Could be a small market. Couldbe a large market.
Cathy Worthington (39:45):
Yeah. Good advice.
Merry Elkins (39:48):
Thank you. Very good. It's, so talking about
promotion again. Are there otherI mean, you you covered this in
a way as far as social mediaand, blogs, but are there other
ways to promote your book? Arethere better ways to promote
your book?
John Bond (40:09):
I think what what the difference is is where your
audience is. That's what thedifference is. So if we're
writing a book about leadershipin the IT field, you're gonna
wanna be on LinkedIn. And thenbeing on, let's say, Instagram
matters a little bit less. Ifyour book is about civil war
reenactors, which I'm gonnaclassify I'm not, but I'm gonna
(40:31):
classify as being some older menon the East Coast, what we what
do they follow, or what do theyread that's of interest to them?
I'm sure there's a civil warreenactors podcast that you'd
wanna check out. I'm surethere's a magazine or newsletter
that you'd wanna check out. Andif you're, writing a young adult
romance, I'm sure there's a bookTikTok about it, and I'm sure
(40:55):
there's an Instagram there areInstagram accounts about it. So
you're gonna wanna find outwhere your audience is and
concentrate on that. Going backto your question, I think it was
your question, Mary, that said,do you have to be the person in
your audience, or can you writeoutside the audience?
This is an exact example of,certainly, you can write
outside, but you have to have away to connect with them, Know
(41:19):
them personally, have them readand give feedback on your book,
and give them permission to say,oh, here's the way I find out
about new books. Word-of-mouth,obviously, one. But then what's
number two? I go to TikTok or Igo to my social media account or
I watch, I read the New YorkTimes book review or whatever
the case may be. So find outwhere your audience is.
(41:42):
And if you're not sure, thenconnect with those people that
are your target audience.
Cathy Worthington (41:47):
And should I ever pay an editor to improve my
manuscript?
John Bond (41:54):
I've got welcome and unwelcome news here. So, I tell
people this is not required, butI tell people, and I myself am a
am a novel writer, and I didn'twelcome this advice. But if you
write a novel, what you shoulddo is write your first three
novels, get them in completefinal form, and stick them in a
(42:15):
drawer and never look at themagain.
Merry Elkins (42:19):
Oh. If you even finish them.
Cathy Worthington (42:22):
That's gonna make people cry.
John Bond (42:24):
I know. I know. Listen up. There's some good
news here
Cathy Worthington (42:27):
coming. Okay.
John Bond (42:28):
Then when you write the fourth one, you've really
mastered your craft. So you haveunderstood a little bit more
about how to make a greatproduct. You could someday go
back to those other novels andrewrite them or revisit them,
but it's very tough to say, I'mgonna write my first novel, and
I'm gonna go have it picked upby an agent and then published
by Random House. It's like inyour first year of tennis saying
(42:50):
you're gonna win the US Open. SoI'm I'm just being honest.
However, if you are a student ofthe written word and you have
been a voracious reader all yourlife, if you're willing to join
a writer's group, a local inperson's writer's group, I'm a
member of two, and I highlyrecommend it. If you're willing
to give your work to people forthem to give you honest feedback
(43:14):
on, and if you're willing toreally accept their their their
comments and really revise it asopposed to dismiss it, then you
may not have to do the threenovels in the drawer idea. When
you go to an editor, you thething you're gonna wanna know
most is what qualifications theyhave and what you expect them to
(43:36):
do and what they expect to getback to you. Some of them will
be very granular related.They're gonna wanna tell you
about that versus which and, youknow, these different parts of
grammar that are very important.
But nobody's ever said, man,that was a terrible story. I
didn't connect with thecharacters. But, man, it was
(43:57):
grammatically correct.
Cathy Worthington (43:58):
So people people
John Bond (44:01):
really care about the story part, and I don't wanna
discount the the the grammarpart. So you're gonna wanna
know, is your editor just anadvanced person that's giving
grammar advice, or are theyreally giving story and
structure advice? If you'regonna pay somebody, first of
all, it'd probably be a fair sumof money. I would ask them for
references from other authorsthey've done similar work for.
(44:23):
Contact those authors and askhow happy they are with them and
ask how much rewriting they did.
So if you're not gonna do thethree novels and the thing and
be very and be very depressedand turn this podcast off, which
I don't want people to, thenwhat you're gonna wanna do is do
a lot of writing, do a lot ofreading, and be open to feedback
(44:45):
and criticism and be willing torevise.
Merry Elkins (44:48):
That's great. Great. Yeah. So, John, what
would you like our boomeraudience and other listeners to
have as a takeaway today?
John Bond (44:59):
Everybody about twenty years ago, there was a
big survey where they surveyedpeople and said, do you have a
book in you? 81% of all adultssaid they had a book in them.
This is not an uncommonresponse, and I believe the
older you are, the more likelyyou are to feel you have a book
in you. Expressing oneself is ahuman need and a a human, it
(45:23):
gives you great joy to do it. Sowhether it's in the form of
writing notes to yourgrandchildren or writing your
first novel or writing blogposts or whatever it is that you
wanna do, it's a human thing foryou to do.
It could be literally writing.It could be typing on their
computer. It could be recordingYouTube videos, but expressing
yourself has great value. Don'tas don't be as concerned with
(45:47):
nobody cares what I think, orI'm never gonna get published by
Random House. I always say topeople, if your great great
grandmother had written severalshort stories and several essays
about her life, just think ofthe tremendous value you would
put in those documents.
And for you to then say, nobodycares about what I think or
(46:10):
nobody's interested in in it orI'm not a gifted writer, those
same efforts, however small orlarge, will be greatly
appreciated by the people thatknow you now as well as in the
future, and I think it's gonnabring you great joy.
Merry Elkins (46:23):
Oh, I
Cathy Worthington (46:24):
love that.
Merry Elkins (46:25):
That gives me chills. That was just beautiful.
Thank you.
John Bond (46:28):
Thank you.
Merry Elkins (46:29):
Thank you so much, John. Our guest today on Late
Boomers has been author andpublishing consultant John Bond.
You can find out more about himand what he offers at publishing
at websitepublishingfundamentals.com.
Thank you so much. That was sovaluable.
Cathy Worthington (46:49):
And thank you for listening to our thanks for
listening to our late boomerspodcast and subscribing to our
late boomers podcast channel onYouTube. Listen in next week
when we will have anotherinspiring guest for you. You can
listen on any podcast platform,and we do appreciate you. Please
follow us on Instagram at I amKathy Worthington and at I am
(47:11):
Mary Alkins and at late boomers.And thanks again to John Bond.
John Bond (47:17):
It was a pleasure meeting both of you. This was a
real joy, and I and I lookforward to future conversations.
Merry Elkins (47:23):
Great. Way.
Cathy Worthington (47:33):
Thank you for joining us on Late Boomers, the
podcast that is your guide tocreating a third act with style,
power, and impact. Please visitour website and get in touch
with us at late boomers dot biz.If you would like to listen to
or download other episodes oflate boomers, go to
ewnpodcastnetwork.com.
Merry Elkins (47:55):
This podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple
Podcast, and most other majorpodcast sites. We hope you make
use of the wisdom you've gainedhere and that you enjoy a
successful third act with yourown style, power, and impact.
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