April 24, 2023 • 36 mins
After the Elephant Recap: Trade Media/Associations Panel
In the trade media/association “After the Elephant” discussion of “Identifying the Elephant in the Room: Critical Communications Strategies in the Face of Sexism','' host of Late Night Health Radio, Mark Alyn, moderated the conversation with guests: Hank Shultz, senior editor at Natural Products Insider, Katrina Tolentino, executive director at Naturally Network, and Craig M. Muckle, senior director of communications at Council for Responsible Nutrition, to respond and discuss session one of the sexism seminar series and challenge other leaders in the industry to do some deep work to make meaningful and fundamental changes when it comes to sexism within the natural products industry. The discussion included some key takeaways and memorable moments including:
Tolentino: “When we’re having these conversations, what we're actually trying to do is bridge the gap, whether its a generation gap or its a gender gap.”
Muckle: “The United States is based on freedom, but some people feel like they have more freedom than others.”
Shultz stressed the need for equality: “If you want full equality, there has to be equality across all categories, if not, everyone’s diminished.”
Tolentino gave a concrete example of sexism that’s often overlooked: “Ignoring an email from a woman because you didn’t like the opinion that she had… that has an effect.” Further noting that because we are so used to sexism in our daily lives that, “we’re looking for overt and much more damaging behaviors to call out,” while missing the more common dismissive actions. Additionally she noted, “Obedience sounds a lot like respect to men,” pointing out that, “when women have an opinion and it's different from a man’s opinion, it's seen as disrespect.”
Alyn admitted that, “I’m doing things that I don’t realize that I’m doing and I want to learn.”
Session One Action Items:
Introduce her in a group.
Invite her to the VIP event.
Cultivate female sources for stories.
Have conversations vs. presentations.
Call it out if the boss has a poor response.
Discuss sexism issues with leadership.
Keep producing diversity content.
Keep inviting people. Don't give up.
Don't be surprised by her title, respect it.
Don't tell her to "check with her husband" or call her "honey."
Be part of the change and help us say #GoodbyeElephants by learning more at https://inicivox.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/late-night-health-radio--2804369/support.
In the trade media/association “After the Elephant” discussion of “Identifying the Elephant in the Room: Critical Communications Strategies in the Face of Sexism','' host of Late Night Health Radio, Mark Alyn, moderated the conversation with guests: Hank Shultz, senior editor at Natural Products Insider, Katrina Tolentino, executive director at Naturally Network, and Craig M. Muckle, senior director of communications at Council for Responsible Nutrition, to respond and discuss session one of the sexism seminar series and challenge other leaders in the industry to do some deep work to make meaningful and fundamental changes when it comes to sexism within the natural products industry. The discussion included some key takeaways and memorable moments including:
Tolentino: “When we’re having these conversations, what we're actually trying to do is bridge the gap, whether its a generation gap or its a gender gap.”
Muckle: “The United States is based on freedom, but some people feel like they have more freedom than others.”
Shultz stressed the need for equality: “If you want full equality, there has to be equality across all categories, if not, everyone’s diminished.”
Tolentino gave a concrete example of sexism that’s often overlooked: “Ignoring an email from a woman because you didn’t like the opinion that she had… that has an effect.” Further noting that because we are so used to sexism in our daily lives that, “we’re looking for overt and much more damaging behaviors to call out,” while missing the more common dismissive actions. Additionally she noted, “Obedience sounds a lot like respect to men,” pointing out that, “when women have an opinion and it's different from a man’s opinion, it's seen as disrespect.”
Alyn admitted that, “I’m doing things that I don’t realize that I’m doing and I want to learn.”
Session One Action Items:
Introduce her in a group.
Invite her to the VIP event.
Cultivate female sources for stories.
Have conversations vs. presentations.
Call it out if the boss has a poor response.
Discuss sexism issues with leadership.
Keep producing diversity content.
Keep inviting people. Don't give up.
Don't be surprised by her title, respect it.
Don't tell her to "check with her husband" or call her "honey."
Be part of the change and help us say #GoodbyeElephants by learning more at https://inicivox.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/late-night-health-radio--2804369/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
This is a special edition of LateNight Help, Identifying the Room in the
Elephant in the Room, Critical communicationstrategies in the face of sexism. We've
all just been watching a fabulous hourlong conversation. We're going to spend about
thirty minutes and forty minutes talking toour guests who've been watching this very powerful
(00:30):
conversation. This is a special editionof Late Night Help, and we're going
to do something a little bit differently. We're going to call this After the
Elephant, and what we're doing iswe're going to take a look as we
the immatural product industry that work inboth trade media and trade associations and what
(00:53):
they're seeing and hearing in the industryon the topic of sexism. The goal
of After the Elephant processes information andrespond to it in a discussion format with
some thought leaders in the industry,and then challenge other leaders in the industry
to do some deep work to makemeaningful and fundamental changes. Now, let
(01:18):
me introduce our panel members. First, we have Hank Schultz. He's a
senior editor of Natural Products Insider.Hello Hank, Hello, thanks for having
me up. Thank you. Wehave Katrina Tolina, Tolin, Tino executive
director of Naturally Network. Hello,Hi, everyone, good to be here.
(01:42):
And we have last, but notleast, we have Craig M.
Buckle. He is a senior communicationsdirector for the Council for Responsible Nutrition and
we're going to get him in there. All like that and that's good.
Okay, Um, everybody, thankyou for joining us. Let's start with
(02:02):
you've all watched the last hour ofthe program that Amy Summers from Pitch Publicity
has put together. What's your yourthought? Let's start with you, Craig.
What was your thought on this firsttrade industry and trade Trade Media and
(02:24):
Trade Industry Association. And Greg wentback away, He'll be back, Hank,
I'll ask you that question. Um, you mean my kind of thirty
thousand foot reaction to the panels there. Um, Well, it was very
(02:46):
interesting to me to hear these perspectivesand it has been sort of a learning
journey for me. We can talkabout this a little bit later in the
podcast. You know, my perspectivehaving been in the daily newspaper for many
years, but it's been a reallearning um, a real learning journey for
(03:06):
me to hear these perspectives from thestandpoint of you know, I've come from
a you know, a fairly privilegedbackground. I didn't have to worry much
about, you know, getting aheadin life. You know, we had
plenty of money, got to goto good schools, etc. And when
you come from that perspective, it'seasy to just incorporate those sorts of viewpoints.
(03:29):
Is the natural starting point, andand and not really be able to
see things from other people's perspectives quiteso easily. So, um, you
know, I am continually being confrontedwith these ideas as I'm in the industry.
Uh, you know, this NewHope when I first started working there,
I worked there before I went toI was at Mutro and Gradients USA
(03:52):
for a number of years I waswith before. Now again i'm with inform
of the repe of but you know, the very female centric industry, or
much more so than where I camefrom. So that's um, you know.
So I've been very interested to hearthese perspectives. But also I'm interested
(04:15):
to hear how far people think thatthe industry still needs to go, because
it seems like it's gone a longway towards this kind of equality judging from
my past experience in my life.So I'll just leave it at that and
we can talk more. Hen,thank you very much. Greig. Let's
take a look at at you andyou might want to adjust your camera for
(04:35):
us a little bit so we cansee your your your face. Um,
what did you think of the ofthe panel during the last hour? What
was your overall impression? Well,well, thanks for having me, and
(04:59):
let me to say for me,the conversation was really very raw. And
I don't want to derail the conversationearly on, you know our conversation early
on, but um, I'll simplysay it was very raw for me because
having just come back from Expo West, I had a situation that would fall
into one of the isms. AndI'm really you know, hearing the discussion,
(05:19):
I got a little angry just hearinghow some of the friends in the
industry have been, you know,so much dismissive about even on the sexism
front. You know, when Ithink it was Sandy or whoever was talking
about the panel that they had inbasically the room emptied out out. I
mean I was pretty much infuriated justhearing that, because, um, it's
(05:45):
people. It's one thing for peopleto say that the you know, they're
interested in making a change but whenyou see their actions like that, that
just tells me there's limited interest andreally pursuing pollutions around specism, racism,
anything else like that. It wasvery disappointing as a as a person of
(06:08):
color who's lived for many years.Um, you're trying to get ahead and
do all the right things if they'revery frustrating when people who seems if you
are to have proveleged don't and itdoesn't affect them, just punched out on
it. So I'm looking forward tocontinue the conversation. I thanks yougot for
having me, And let's go toKatrina, who is the You're you're the
(06:30):
strongest here because you're the only womanon this panel of guys talking about sexism,
and I think that that takes alot of a lot of guts just
right there. Thank you. Andlast but not least, I'm wanted to
say to Sandy, Sandy al Menderis, thank you for commenting and saying that
(06:57):
you're excited for this conversation. Katrina, what was your takeaway from the conversation.
Yeah, I'm I know that youknow this is this is a tough
position for all of us to bein, to be kind of in this
raw space, and I'm hoping thatwe can all be vulnerable. I mean
a few high level things. Idefinitely can relate a lot to a room
(07:21):
emptying out when we're starting to talkabout sexism and we're talking about diversity,
equity and inclusion initiatives. I thinkthis is something that I've seen many,
many times in many not just Expo, but really and lots of conversations.
What ends up happening is that theallies that exist are the ones that are
(07:42):
in the room. And so Iwould just like to say that if you
are one of the people that stoodup to leave, that means that it's
not impacting you, and that meanswe need you even more so that that's
something you know. I definitely hada reaction to that, and that's something
you know, to build on whatjust shared. And then a couple of
things. I think there's there weresome some things touched on around, like
(08:03):
generational differences. I think there's aspace in between generations and the new generation
of leaders and founders that are cominginto the industry. That space, the
fact that we're noticing the sexism morein the industry, that space is the
opportunity for all of us, right, and we're having these conversations, what
(08:24):
we're actually trying to do is bridgingthe gap, whether it's a generational gap,
whether it's a gender gap. Sothat's you know, I think that's
important to say because these conversations areuncomfortable and people can get up and walk
away if it's not something that impactsthem greatly. And then the last thing
I just wanted to say is thatsexism is a word. UM can see.
(08:46):
It could seem like the behaviors thatwe're talking about and that we're looking
for are very overt, but wetouched a little bit on um, you
know, the smaller behaviors around beingdismissed about being being um, being ignored,
being unheard, Those are just asuh, those are just as damaging
UM. And in this conversation,so lots more, lots more to cover,
(09:09):
but those are just you know,kind of the high level of things
that I definitely had some strong reactionsto. Let me throw this out to
Craig and and maybe uh, Hankand Katrina can jump in as well,
and that is is this is sexisman issue for women or men? Or
(09:31):
is it an issue for both?Or during it was brought this was brought
up during the hour and it's struckme as being, yes, this is
both an issue for men and women. It's for everyone. Greig, Yeah,
yes, Mark, it absolutely makingfor everyone. And you know I
(09:52):
worked from many corporate corporations the courseof my career, and I can tell
you I have seen it first canin the industry, you know, in
the workplace I've been where you know, women are not treating other women but
the same was today would want samedignity and really, um, you know,
putting them in positions, you know, positions that they shouldn't have to
(10:16):
be forced to be put in,just as well as you know men have
done that. And it's like anyof these other issues, it's not going
to just take one segment of oursociety or one segment of the cultural group
to participate. It's gonna require everyone'sinvestment. Everyone being We're going to be
very dedicated. Everyone's growing to beingempathetic and really every affect you as an
(10:46):
individual, as a person, whateverthat it is important if we're going to
advance ourselves as a brought our humansociety. Um and and you know the
United States is based on we knowfreedom, but some people feel that they
have more freedom and other filf.Yeah, we all need to be in
the film. We wanted to worktoward the common goal. Your oops,
(11:16):
I think you're muted. Sorry aboutthat. I actually agree, I absolutely
agree with what Craig had to say, and I would say that in a
way, I think, you know, these questions of you know, the
ways in which sexism and racism mightbe bond together. I think in a
way, sexism has proven to beeven more intractable and insidious. Not to
(11:41):
say that racism, these problems aresolved in our society by any stretch.
But back when I first started inthe newspaper business, when I first started
working at a major metropolitan daily herein Denver in nineteen eighty six, there
were still quite a few people,older people working there who had started in
the business and maybe the early sexties, and some of those attitudes were carrying
(12:03):
over. So you know, therewere words that, you know, hurtful,
ugly words that could be used torefer to a black American that you
would never hear at that time,but you would still hear a lot of
very crude words to refer to women, and that still seemed to be thought
of as like you know, okay, and just one of the things that
the boys did right, and sothat changed slowly, but you know,
(12:26):
I absolutely think that it was somethingthat you know, if you want full
equality, there has to be equalityacross all categories or everyone's diminished and could
train it. It's we're talking reallyabout the social infrastructure that we're in.
So it's going to impact both menand women. We both we all participate
(12:48):
in it, whether we're aware ofit or not. And that's that's why
these these conversations and making a differencein this area is tough because sexism is
in our schools at a young age, it's in our family units, it's
it's really in our daily life,and we're so used to it that,
um, we're looking for over andmuch more damaging behaviors to call out,
(13:15):
when really it can be as smallas you ignoring an email from a woman
because you didn't like the opinion thatshe had, right, and so it's
it's really pervasive and it impacts bothsexes and in every aspect of our life.
One of the things that I noticedduring the conversation was that women taken
(13:39):
okay, that's who quotes. Theythey may have you know somebody says,
hey, honey, ma'am, that'sa that's one that I have to work
on. I grew up calling womenmaam, and I have to break myself
to that habit. Do you thinkthat if there's blatant sexism, a lot
(14:05):
of women don't don't report it.They don't they don't tell their supervisors,
HR, somebody at a at aconference. What do you think? And
I'm gonna start with you, Katrina. It often goes unreported because it's a
burden to be the victim to dothe reporting. You you may not feel
(14:28):
safe enough to report it. You'reafraid of the repercussions, right, and
again, I think that there's notenough allies to even have the safe conversation
and so um, I think thatit's a lot more prevalent than we eat
can even imagine. And I meanI can think of many, many,
many times just since the beginning ofthis year that's things have happened to me
(14:50):
personally that I've gone on that Ihave not reported, just because I would
be reporting something every day markings seeinghow bad you know, on the scale
of one to ten, how wouldyou put things or is it across the
board all ten. Now, Ithink there's varying degrees. And you know,
(15:13):
I know the panel also mentioned thisthat it you know, it's some
of it's not malicious, right,some of it is generational, some of
it is just sort of the statusquo of doing business. And one thing
that I'd like to, you know, call out that I'm observing a lot
of right now is UM, mencan sometimes expect obedience sounds a lot like
(15:41):
respect to men and women when womenhave an opinion, and it's different from
a man's opinion when UM. Andit could be that we're offering it up
because we're experts in that that doesn'tthat doesn't matter. UM. It can
be seen as disrespect UM and UM. And so I think that is a
(16:07):
root cause for some of the behavioralsbehavioral issues that we see. And it's
a tough thing for me to evensay out loud that that is that obedience
is required of me, uh andand and that's that's needed of me to
play the game, to advance professionally, and as someone that it's a that's
a leader in the industry, youknow, in this very visible role.
(16:27):
UM. People assume I have thispower position and I do, but there
are times that that I am alsosilenced and that I um that I feel
unheard. So if it's happening tome, it's happening to a lot of
people. Susanne Shelton just joined us, uh and we're gonna let's see if
(16:48):
we can bring up for comment herewell. Susanne Shelton said, Katrina is
making UM so many important points andit's clear men have no idea what we
deal with. And that's true,and I think that at least I'm going
to speak for the three of us. We're here to learn. We want
(17:10):
to make the same mistakes. Imean, that's why I agreed to do
this with Amy, because I amconvinced that I'm doing things that I don't
realize I'm doing, and I wantto learn. I don't want to offend
anybody. I want to work witheverybody, you know. And I wanted
(17:32):
to say hello to Christopher Cincero forsaying hello, and we appreciate that as
well. If I could just jumpin here, Margaret, I think that's
a real key point for my ownpersonal journey. When I started in the
natural products business, I was firstworking a New Hope. That's almost thirteen
(17:55):
years ago now, and that wasreally my first experience of working in a
room that was primarily women younger thanmyself, and that was a learning experience
for me. And I realized,much as you may have done, and
maybe Craig you've had the same experience, that there's certain attitudes that one adopts
that you don't even realize that you'rethinking about things in a certain way,
(18:18):
and those come out. So oneof the things that I've really appreciated is
having, you know, kind ofone on one learning sessions with people.
Every so often, somebody's told me, you know, that was hurtful to
me, or that, you know, I don't know if you meant to
express yourself in that way. Oneof the things that I've always tried to
do as a journalist when I'm talkingto sources is, you know, I
(18:42):
asked a lot of questions, evenif something might seem obvious. I want
to make sure that I absolutely understandwhere people are coming from and to make
sure that I've understood properly what somebody'strying to convey to me. And I
appreciate when people say the same tome. So it's, uh, you
know, it's and you know,sometimes I've done the you know, I
(19:06):
don't I don't need to go inany specifics, and none of them were
egregious. I mean, nobody wroteme up or anything like that. But
on the other hand, everyone's nowwhen you feel like you've unintentionally hurt somebody,
that that hurts, and you knowit's it's an opportunity for learning that
I that I do absolutely take toheart. Craig, let me ask you
(19:27):
this. One of the the commentsduring the last hour was about the classes,
and they talked about it several times. How maybe they have a class
or a session a seminar and peopleleave the room that the leaders of the
(19:47):
industry don't show up, they don'tparticipate. Can you respond to that?
I mean, well, let melet me simplify this. Our classes on
sexes, racism, ages, peoplesare they? Are they worthwhile? Yeah?
(20:11):
I mean, look, I learnedearlier in my career that every day
we walk into the office, itshould be about continuous learning. You know,
I do a variety of single storecontina does and store hands does.
I'm sure you do. Where it'sin coming upon us to learn every day.
I mean, the simple thing Ithink we all have in common here
is that we're communicating. So Iknow we write every day, and so
(20:33):
our goal is to write as effectivelyas possible, as confessedly as possible,
and just the ability to continue toimprove that writing is a continual process of
learning, and we could carry thatthrough to all of our other practices,
especially as a relation to engaging withpeople. And you know, as someone
who has stood side by side withcorporate executives and I still continue to do
(20:57):
that, we're always encouraging them.If any project is going to be affected,
it starts from the top down.If everyone sees the leader buying in,
engaging fully and being you know,committed to it. And I think
committed is a key word here,because it's one thing to say you're doing
(21:18):
it. It's another thing to becommitted to it and really having it be
heart felt. So peace and instantfear because people can tell when you're faking
it. And so if the leaderscommitted to it, they're going to be
there. Because the leader is shouldalways be aware of the fact that their
subordinates are watching them and their actionsspeaks volume. And if their leader is
(21:44):
walking out of the room at thein the beginning of a discussion, because
he or she doesn't want to hearit. There's a century saying I'm validating
your departure as well. And sothe leaders need to be present, they
need to be accountable to themselves andthe subordinate, and they need to be
committed to taking the appropriate action towardforre that. This doesn't make the manifest
(22:07):
itself. The word you used itjust now. It was brought up several
times during the conversation, and that'sthe word communication. We're all in the
communication business. I talk to peopleevery week about some form of health.
(22:30):
Thank your writing about it, Craig. You're writing and talking about you health
and as is good, Trina.So how do we get that communication to
be a two way street so thatcorporate people way up and the sea level
(22:52):
understand what's going on in the realworld. Katrina, Yeah, you know,
right before the panel started, Icame across this article in the Wall
Street Journal talking about Silicon Valley Bankand their president and the quote that he
sent out as part of their proxystatement. And I'm going to read it
to you because this really pissed meoff, and this is very damaging and
(23:15):
it's very related to this conversation.They said or he said nine of the
Silicon Valley Bank board being independent andforty five percent women. They also have
one black, one LGBTQ plus andtwo veterans. And the article said,
I'm not saying twelve white men wouldhave avoided this mess, but the company
(23:37):
may have been distracted by diversity demands. Oh boy, now that says so
much. That's that's out in theworld. And when when those types of
sentiments are front and center in thenews we are in the environment that we're
in right now, there's so muchfear there and people are those ideas are
(24:00):
very easy to snowball, and sothere's so much responsibility around being intentional about
how we elevate women celebrating their success. Right, you see so much more
examples of women making mistakes or whateverthe case may be, because women are
not allowed to make mistakes. Youmake one, it's you're done. And
(24:23):
so that statement that this person thatthis man made is is very damaging to
the work that we're all trying todo. It prevents people from learning,
it prevents people from making investments inthis area. And that is you know,
that's just one example, right,and so you know, I think
from a from a news perspective.You know, I think there's a lot
(24:44):
of intentionality that we're seeing across ourpartners and you know, all the folks
that were on the panel, butyou know, we're that needs to be
a much wider practice. I couldn'tI couldn't agree with you more. And
that was a great news story thatyou read. What's interesting to me is
that criminal prosecution may happen to thetop executives of that of Silicon Valley Bank
(25:18):
the gods, Craig, did youhave something to say? Yeah, I
want to why good? I wantto follow up from you know, that
great or appalling item that betweena justread. I mean, you know,
probably follow my reaction to that.But you know, if I gotta tell
you, if that would my leader, I would call him out on it
(25:41):
because ultimately, you know, youhave to have a courage to move forward
with that. And I think that'sreally where you know, we fall short.
People are fearful of being retelliated againstfor calling out frankly, what I
would carefly in a trial because thatis not acceptable for him to suggest that
(26:03):
that that organizations was failing because theywere focused on diversity. Com I mean,
that's about the misters ever get Imean, he wasn't he chose that
not to even enter the room andmake him attempt and so um, that's
the sort of you know, well, he's not taking responsibility. And that
(26:26):
elephant in his room had swashed theroom. So I'm not if let me
we only have a few more minutesleft maybe maybe maybe yeah, and we're
going great, so we'll go aslong as we can here. But my
question is right, my thoughts,I'm you know, during the session again,
(26:56):
they brought up I think it wasAmy who mentioned in the notes,
uh, booth babes. Um,you know, and I'm gonna you know,
there's booth babes and they're booth guysright. Uh, these are tremendously
fit, beautiful people. Does thatbother anybody at at conventions? And I've
(27:22):
seen this at um uh direct responsemarketing at conventions. I've seen it at
financial conventions. What does it?What does a a well or a not
well clad woman have to do withselling financial services? It doesn't. It
(27:42):
doesn't jive in my head, umor a guy, it doesn't, you
know, it's the same thing.Well, if if if I could jump
in, I've hit us kind ofI've had this conversation with my brother who
was in He spent his career inthe machine tool and die in so that's
not a very female centric industry.And when I was sharing with him about
(28:07):
my experiences at Expo West, whereyou know, it's a room full of
a lot of beautiful people and alot of successful and empowered people, and
he was contrasting that with the tradeshows he went to where he said,
well, you know, in hisopinion, every woman who was there was
paid to be there to demonstrate tothe men, if you will, which
is kind of a mournful position.So certainly there's you know, there are
(28:32):
some people at Expo West who arepaid to be presented product. But on
the other hand, I do thinkthat it is we're having this conversation,
let's remember within an industry where womenare a very powerful presence and are becoming
a more powerful presence all the time. And I talked to, you know,
female CEOs all the time, andyou know, in the years at
(28:56):
the newspaper business in the business department, I can probably count on two hands
maybe the time we had interviewed afemale CEO, because they're just worn't that
many to talk to at that time. Well, I think that you know,
that's not to say once again thatwe've gotten to where we need to
be by any stretch of imagination.But but but I do think that that,
(29:17):
um, you know, the alot of these categories that we deal
with, like say, sports nutrition, personal care, weight management, I
mean a lot of them. Ofcourse, if if you want to sell
the products, you've got to sortof look the part right. Nobody's gonna
buy a sports nutrition product from aguy who looks like a flabby coast potato
and like me, yeah, gotit me. I mean, you know
(29:41):
so, But but I you know, the appearance part aside, I mean,
I do think it's a statement aboutyou know, this industry is connected
with people who are interested in theirhealth. Um. There are a lot
of empowered women in the industry,and I think that's great. And so
there's an opportunity and I'm sorry tohear Trina that you feel like you have
these problems on a continual basis asa reminder that there's a long way to
(30:06):
go. But um, I alsothink that it's a it's an industry that
has an opportunity to make these kindof changes because of this kind of representation
with the industry at least I'd liketo think so from my point of view,
with the word dismissively, we've viewseveral times what can we do as
(30:30):
an industry two medicate so dismissively hurtfulword and comment. I can think of
immediate examples just from you know,the last couple of weeks. I think
that, and you know, Ithink this is universal. We're we're really
(30:52):
talking about ally ship right and ummaking sure that you're bringing people with you
when our opportunity. So for example, if I you know, I've been
in situations where I'm very often Imay be the only woman in a group,
and I may happen on to agroup of men and I might know
(31:14):
a couple of them, but they'veknown each other for thirty years. And
I've been in the industry, youknow, a couple of years, and
I may not know everyone in thatcircle. But there are times where I'm
not being introduced. I might Imight be standing there for five minutes and
then you know, I introduced myself. I don't have a problem doing that,
but that's me advocating for myself,and not everyone is comfortable doing that.
(31:38):
And so from I think that thatis really low hanging through. We're
really talking about men being allies towomen in that way and bringing them forward.
And so you know, I thinkeven just that as a as a
as a small difference to anyone that'swatching, can make an impact today with
that one behavioral change. Let's um, let's ramp up and in about a
(32:02):
minute and start with Craig, whatcan we do to challenge the industry to
clean up a check? Well,I don't know if that can be addressed
in a minute, but I'll fillonly from the first thing, going back
the consumers. You know, mostrecent point is we should be intensible in
(32:24):
what we're doing. You know,we should be bringing women into the folds
that we're talking about, you know, combating sexism. We need to see
and we tek about the women inthe communications field, whether it's in public
relations or journalism. But we continuethat, we must continue to be intention
to continue to make sure that weare being allied for them. And because
(32:46):
I you know, I'm I'm ahusband to a great wife and I have
two young daughters and one of uscan be graduating life. We're losing Craig
sister, But I industry, youknow, bring her along ding. This
(33:16):
is a big topic there's to do. I think, um, it's important
that we're having this conversation out inthe open, but more importantly, we
need to be having this conversation wherethere's leadership in the room, because that
is where change can happen. RightIf the leaders are not on board because
(33:37):
it's not impacting them, they canchoose not to see it. So that's
a great place to start. That'sgreat that we're having this conversation right people
are watching, But I hope thateveryone watching this and everyone that watched the
panel and everyone on the panel cantake this conversation back in the rooms that
they're in behind closed doors, wherethere's leaders there, and we keep having
this conversation. So that's the onething I would urge. I think that's
(33:59):
where that's where the hard the hardwork is is actually behind closed doors.
And Hank, how about you?Well, I think the one thing I
would take away is to continue tofocus on what I can do within my
realm, which is to try todrive these these concepts as being newsworthy and
to continue to cover those stories,to try to continue to bring new female
(34:21):
voices in his sources in the stories, and I think we've done that pretty
effectively and we're going to continue tofocus on the here at Natural Products Insider.
Listen, Hank. If you everneed if you ever need some sources,
you need some new some more femaleCEOs, you come, come ask
me. I know a ton ofthem. You're on the list, Okay,
(34:44):
at the top of the list,right, Hank, Right, Okay,
good listen. Thank you all,Katrina, Hank and Craig. Thank
you for participating in our After theElephant series. We'll be back next week
with another one, and thank youfor joining us on After the Elephant.
(35:05):
There's been a special edition of LateNight Health and our response and discussion panel
to session one of Identifying the Elephantin the Room Critical Communication Strategies in the
Face of Sexism. Please join usnext Thursday at one to two pm Eastern
Time as we examine the topic ofsexism in the healthcare, nutrition, and
(35:28):
science sector of the natural products industry. And make sure you're registered for Elephant
in the Room session so you canlisten to what we're responding to during After
the Elephant. Go to Innisbox dotdfairs dot com. It's right there on
the screen. If you're not registeredyet, and if you missed any of
(35:49):
the session today or any of theother ones, you can watch them on
replay at your convenience, and ofcourse we'll see you back here on social
media for our post response and discussionon After the Elephants here on late night.
I'm Mark Ellen. Thank you forwatching until next time. Goodbye Elephants.
(36:12):
We'll see you next night. Byebye for now. Hold on, everybody,
This is a special edition of LateNight Help, Identifying the Room in the
Elephant in the Room, Critical communicationstrategies in the face of sexism. We've
all just been watching a fabulous hourlong conversation. We're going to spend about
thirty minutes and forty minutes talking toour guests who've been watching this very powerful
(00:30):
conversation. This is a special editionof Late Night Help, and we're going
to do something a little bit differently. We're going to call this After the
Elephant, and what we're doing iswe're going to take a look as we
the immatural product industry that work inboth trade media and trade associations and what
(00:53):
they're seeing and hearing in the industryon the topic of sexism. The goal
of After the Elephant processes information andrespond to it in a discussion format with
some thought leaders in the industry,and then challenge other leaders in the industry
to do some deep work to makemeaningful and fundamental changes. Now, let
(01:18):
me introduce our panel members. First, we have Hank Schultz. He's a
senior editor of Natural Products Insider.Hello Hank, Hello, thanks for having
me up. Thank you. Wehave Katrina Tolina, Tolin, Tino executive
director of Naturally Network. Hello,Hi, everyone, good to be here.
(01:42):
And we have last, but notleast, we have Craig M.
Buckle. He is a senior communicationsdirector for the Council for Responsible Nutrition and
we're going to get him in there. All like that and that's good.
Okay, Um, everybody, thankyou for joining us. Let's start with
(02:02):
you've all watched the last hour ofthe program that Amy Summers from Pitch Publicity
has put together. What's your yourthought? Let's start with you, Craig.
What was your thought on this firsttrade industry and trade Trade Media and
(02:24):
Trade Industry Association. And Greg wentback away, He'll be back, Hank,
I'll ask you that question. Um, you mean my kind of thirty
thousand foot reaction to the panels there. Um, Well, it was very
(02:46):
interesting to me to hear these perspectivesand it has been sort of a learning
journey for me. We can talkabout this a little bit later in the
podcast. You know, my perspectivehaving been in the daily newspaper for many
years, but it's been a reallearning um, a real learning journey for
(03:06):
me to hear these perspectives from thestandpoint of you know, I've come from
a you know, a fairly privilegedbackground. I didn't have to worry much
about, you know, getting aheadin life. You know, we had
plenty of money, got to goto good schools, etc. And when
you come from that perspective, it'seasy to just incorporate those sorts of viewpoints.
(03:29):
Is the natural starting point, andand and not really be able to
see things from other people's perspectives quiteso easily. So, um, you
know, I am continually being confrontedwith these ideas as I'm in the industry.
Uh, you know, this NewHope when I first started working there,
I worked there before I went toI was at Mutro and Gradients USA
(03:52):
for a number of years I waswith before. Now again i'm with inform
of the repe of but you know, the very female centric industry, or
much more so than where I camefrom. So that's um, you know.
So I've been very interested to hearthese perspectives. But also I'm interested
(04:15):
to hear how far people think thatthe industry still needs to go, because
it seems like it's gone a longway towards this kind of equality judging from
my past experience in my life.So I'll just leave it at that and
we can talk more. Hen,thank you very much. Greig. Let's
take a look at at you andyou might want to adjust your camera for
(04:35):
us a little bit so we cansee your your your face. Um,
what did you think of the ofthe panel during the last hour? What
was your overall impression? Well,well, thanks for having me, and
(04:59):
let me to say for me,the conversation was really very raw. And
I don't want to derail the conversationearly on, you know our conversation early
on, but um, I'll simplysay it was very raw for me because
having just come back from Expo West, I had a situation that would fall
into one of the isms. AndI'm really you know, hearing the discussion,
(05:19):
I got a little angry just hearinghow some of the friends in the
industry have been, you know,so much dismissive about even on the sexism
front. You know, when Ithink it was Sandy or whoever was talking
about the panel that they had inbasically the room emptied out out. I
mean I was pretty much infuriated justhearing that, because, um, it's
(05:45):
people. It's one thing for peopleto say that the you know, they're
interested in making a change but whenyou see their actions like that, that
just tells me there's limited interest andreally pursuing pollutions around specism, racism,
anything else like that. It wasvery disappointing as a as a person of
(06:08):
color who's lived for many years.Um, you're trying to get ahead and
do all the right things if they'revery frustrating when people who seems if you
are to have proveleged don't and itdoesn't affect them, just punched out on
it. So I'm looking forward tocontinue the conversation. I thanks yougot for
having me, And let's go toKatrina, who is the You're you're the
(06:30):
strongest here because you're the only womanon this panel of guys talking about sexism,
and I think that that takes alot of a lot of guts just
right there. Thank you. Andlast but not least, I'm wanted to
say to Sandy, Sandy al Menderis, thank you for commenting and saying that
(06:57):
you're excited for this conversation. Katrina, what was your takeaway from the conversation.
Yeah, I'm I know that youknow this is this is a tough
position for all of us to bein, to be kind of in this
raw space, and I'm hoping thatwe can all be vulnerable. I mean
a few high level things. Idefinitely can relate a lot to a room
(07:21):
emptying out when we're starting to talkabout sexism and we're talking about diversity,
equity and inclusion initiatives. I thinkthis is something that I've seen many,
many times in many not just Expo, but really and lots of conversations.
What ends up happening is that theallies that exist are the ones that are
(07:42):
in the room. And so Iwould just like to say that if you
are one of the people that stoodup to leave, that means that it's
not impacting you, and that meanswe need you even more so that that's
something you know. I definitely hada reaction to that, and that's something
you know, to build on whatjust shared. And then a couple of
things. I think there's there weresome some things touched on around, like
(08:03):
generational differences. I think there's aspace in between generations and the new generation
of leaders and founders that are cominginto the industry. That space, the
fact that we're noticing the sexism morein the industry, that space is the
opportunity for all of us, right, and we're having these conversations, what
(08:24):
we're actually trying to do is bridgingthe gap, whether it's a generational gap,
whether it's a gender gap. Sothat's you know, I think that's
important to say because these conversations areuncomfortable and people can get up and walk
away if it's not something that impactsthem greatly. And then the last thing
I just wanted to say is thatsexism is a word. UM can see.
(08:46):
It could seem like the behaviors thatwe're talking about and that we're looking
for are very overt, but wetouched a little bit on um, you
know, the smaller behaviors around beingdismissed about being being um, being ignored,
being unheard, Those are just asuh, those are just as damaging
UM. And in this conversation,so lots more, lots more to cover,
(09:09):
but those are just you know,kind of the high level of things
that I definitely had some strong reactionsto. Let me throw this out to
Craig and and maybe uh, Hankand Katrina can jump in as well,
and that is is this is sexisman issue for women or men? Or
(09:31):
is it an issue for both?Or during it was brought this was brought
up during the hour and it's struckme as being, yes, this is
both an issue for men and women. It's for everyone. Greig, Yeah,
yes, Mark, it absolutely makingfor everyone. And you know I
(09:52):
worked from many corporate corporations the courseof my career, and I can tell
you I have seen it first canin the industry, you know, in
the workplace I've been where you know, women are not treating other women but
the same was today would want samedignity and really, um, you know,
putting them in positions, you know, positions that they shouldn't have to
(10:16):
be forced to be put in,just as well as you know men have
done that. And it's like anyof these other issues, it's not going
to just take one segment of oursociety or one segment of the cultural group
to participate. It's gonna require everyone'sinvestment. Everyone being We're going to be
very dedicated. Everyone's growing to beingempathetic and really every affect you as an
(10:46):
individual, as a person, whateverthat it is important if we're going to
advance ourselves as a brought our humansociety. Um and and you know the
United States is based on we knowfreedom, but some people feel that they
have more freedom and other filf.Yeah, we all need to be in
the film. We wanted to worktoward the common goal. Your oops,
(11:16):
I think you're muted. Sorry aboutthat. I actually agree, I absolutely
agree with what Craig had to say, and I would say that in a
way, I think, you know, these questions of you know, the
ways in which sexism and racism mightbe bond together. I think in a
way, sexism has proven to beeven more intractable and insidious. Not to
(11:41):
say that racism, these problems aresolved in our society by any stretch.
But back when I first started inthe newspaper business, when I first started
working at a major metropolitan daily herein Denver in nineteen eighty six, there
were still quite a few people,older people working there who had started in
the business and maybe the early sexties, and some of those attitudes were carrying
(12:03):
over. So you know, therewere words that, you know, hurtful,
ugly words that could be used torefer to a black American that you
would never hear at that time,but you would still hear a lot of
very crude words to refer to women, and that still seemed to be thought
of as like you know, okay, and just one of the things that
the boys did right, and sothat changed slowly, but you know,
(12:26):
I absolutely think that it was somethingthat you know, if you want full
equality, there has to be equalityacross all categories or everyone's diminished and could
train it. It's we're talking reallyabout the social infrastructure that we're in.
So it's going to impact both menand women. We both we all participate
(12:48):
in it, whether we're aware ofit or not. And that's that's why
these these conversations and making a differencein this area is tough because sexism is
in our schools at a young age, it's in our family units, it's
it's really in our daily life,and we're so used to it that,
um, we're looking for over andmuch more damaging behaviors to call out,
(13:15):
when really it can be as smallas you ignoring an email from a woman
because you didn't like the opinion thatshe had, right, and so it's
it's really pervasive and it impacts bothsexes and in every aspect of our life.
One of the things that I noticedduring the conversation was that women taken
(13:39):
okay, that's who quotes. Theythey may have you know somebody says,
hey, honey, ma'am, that'sa that's one that I have to work
on. I grew up calling womenmaam, and I have to break myself
to that habit. Do you thinkthat if there's blatant sexism, a lot
(14:05):
of women don't don't report it.They don't they don't tell their supervisors,
HR, somebody at a at aconference. What do you think? And
I'm gonna start with you, Katrina. It often goes unreported because it's a
burden to be the victim to dothe reporting. You you may not feel
(14:28):
safe enough to report it. You'reafraid of the repercussions, right, and
again, I think that there's notenough allies to even have the safe conversation
and so um, I think thatit's a lot more prevalent than we eat
can even imagine. And I meanI can think of many, many,
many times just since the beginning ofthis year that's things have happened to me
(14:50):
personally that I've gone on that Ihave not reported, just because I would
be reporting something every day markings seeinghow bad you know, on the scale
of one to ten, how wouldyou put things or is it across the
board all ten. Now, Ithink there's varying degrees. And you know,
(15:13):
I know the panel also mentioned thisthat it you know, it's some
of it's not malicious, right,some of it is generational, some of
it is just sort of the statusquo of doing business. And one thing
that I'd like to, you know, call out that I'm observing a lot
of right now is UM, mencan sometimes expect obedience sounds a lot like
(15:41):
respect to men and women when womenhave an opinion, and it's different from
a man's opinion when UM. Andit could be that we're offering it up
because we're experts in that that doesn'tthat doesn't matter. UM. It can
be seen as disrespect UM and UM. And so I think that is a
(16:07):
root cause for some of the behavioralsbehavioral issues that we see. And it's
a tough thing for me to evensay out loud that that is that obedience
is required of me, uh andand and that's that's needed of me to
play the game, to advance professionally, and as someone that it's a that's
a leader in the industry, youknow, in this very visible role.
(16:27):
UM. People assume I have thispower position and I do, but there
are times that that I am alsosilenced and that I um that I feel
unheard. So if it's happening tome, it's happening to a lot of
people. Susanne Shelton just joined us, uh and we're gonna let's see if
(16:48):
we can bring up for comment herewell. Susanne Shelton said, Katrina is
making UM so many important points andit's clear men have no idea what we
deal with. And that's true,and I think that at least I'm going
to speak for the three of us. We're here to learn. We want
(17:10):
to make the same mistakes. Imean, that's why I agreed to do
this with Amy, because I amconvinced that I'm doing things that I don't
realize I'm doing, and I wantto learn. I don't want to offend
anybody. I want to work witheverybody, you know. And I wanted
(17:32):
to say hello to Christopher Cincero forsaying hello, and we appreciate that as
well. If I could just jumpin here, Margaret, I think that's
a real key point for my ownpersonal journey. When I started in the
natural products business, I was firstworking a New Hope. That's almost thirteen
(17:55):
years ago now, and that wasreally my first experience of working in a
room that was primarily women younger thanmyself, and that was a learning experience
for me. And I realized,much as you may have done, and
maybe Craig you've had the same experience, that there's certain attitudes that one adopts
that you don't even realize that you'rethinking about things in a certain way,
(18:18):
and those come out. So oneof the things that I've really appreciated is
having, you know, kind ofone on one learning sessions with people.
Every so often, somebody's told me, you know, that was hurtful to
me, or that, you know, I don't know if you meant to
express yourself in that way. Oneof the things that I've always tried to
do as a journalist when I'm talkingto sources is, you know, I
(18:42):
asked a lot of questions, evenif something might seem obvious. I want
to make sure that I absolutely understandwhere people are coming from and to make
sure that I've understood properly what somebody'strying to convey to me. And I
appreciate when people say the same tome. So it's, uh, you
know, it's and you know,sometimes I've done the you know, I
(19:06):
don't I don't need to go inany specifics, and none of them were
egregious. I mean, nobody wroteme up or anything like that. But
on the other hand, everyone's nowwhen you feel like you've unintentionally hurt somebody,
that that hurts, and you knowit's it's an opportunity for learning that
I that I do absolutely take toheart. Craig, let me ask you
(19:27):
this. One of the the commentsduring the last hour was about the classes,
and they talked about it several times. How maybe they have a class
or a session a seminar and peopleleave the room that the leaders of the
(19:47):
industry don't show up, they don'tparticipate. Can you respond to that?
I mean, well, let melet me simplify this. Our classes on
sexes, racism, ages, peoplesare they? Are they worthwhile? Yeah?
(20:11):
I mean, look, I learnedearlier in my career that every day
we walk into the office, itshould be about continuous learning. You know,
I do a variety of single storecontina does and store hands does.
I'm sure you do. Where it'sin coming upon us to learn every day.
I mean, the simple thing Ithink we all have in common here
is that we're communicating. So Iknow we write every day, and so
(20:33):
our goal is to write as effectivelyas possible, as confessedly as possible,
and just the ability to continue toimprove that writing is a continual process of
learning, and we could carry thatthrough to all of our other practices,
especially as a relation to engaging withpeople. And you know, as someone
who has stood side by side withcorporate executives and I still continue to do
(20:57):
that, we're always encouraging them.If any project is going to be affected,
it starts from the top down.If everyone sees the leader buying in,
engaging fully and being you know,committed to it. And I think
committed is a key word here,because it's one thing to say you're doing
(21:18):
it. It's another thing to becommitted to it and really having it be
heart felt. So peace and instantfear because people can tell when you're faking
it. And so if the leaderscommitted to it, they're going to be
there. Because the leader is shouldalways be aware of the fact that their
subordinates are watching them and their actionsspeaks volume. And if their leader is
(21:44):
walking out of the room at thein the beginning of a discussion, because
he or she doesn't want to hearit. There's a century saying I'm validating
your departure as well. And sothe leaders need to be present, they
need to be accountable to themselves andthe subordinate, and they need to be
committed to taking the appropriate action towardforre that. This doesn't make the manifest
(22:07):
itself. The word you used itjust now. It was brought up several
times during the conversation, and that'sthe word communication. We're all in the
communication business. I talk to peopleevery week about some form of health.
(22:30):
Thank your writing about it, Craig. You're writing and talking about you health
and as is good, Trina.So how do we get that communication to
be a two way street so thatcorporate people way up and the sea level
(22:52):
understand what's going on in the realworld. Katrina, Yeah, you know,
right before the panel started, Icame across this article in the Wall
Street Journal talking about Silicon Valley Bankand their president and the quote that he
sent out as part of their proxystatement. And I'm going to read it
to you because this really pissed meoff, and this is very damaging and
(23:15):
it's very related to this conversation.They said or he said nine of the
Silicon Valley Bank board being independent andforty five percent women. They also have
one black, one LGBTQ plus andtwo veterans. And the article said,
I'm not saying twelve white men wouldhave avoided this mess, but the company
(23:37):
may have been distracted by diversity demands. Oh boy, now that says so
much. That's that's out in theworld. And when when those types of
sentiments are front and center in thenews we are in the environment that we're
in right now, there's so muchfear there and people are those ideas are
(24:00):
very easy to snowball, and sothere's so much responsibility around being intentional about
how we elevate women celebrating their success. Right, you see so much more
examples of women making mistakes or whateverthe case may be, because women are
not allowed to make mistakes. Youmake one, it's you're done. And
(24:23):
so that statement that this person thatthis man made is is very damaging to
the work that we're all trying todo. It prevents people from learning,
it prevents people from making investments inthis area. And that is you know,
that's just one example, right,and so you know, I think
from a from a news perspective.You know, I think there's a lot
(24:44):
of intentionality that we're seeing across ourpartners and you know, all the folks
that were on the panel, butyou know, we're that needs to be
a much wider practice. I couldn'tI couldn't agree with you more. And
that was a great news story thatyou read. What's interesting to me is
that criminal prosecution may happen to thetop executives of that of Silicon Valley Bank
(25:18):
the gods, Craig, did youhave something to say? Yeah, I
want to why good? I wantto follow up from you know, that
great or appalling item that betweena justread. I mean, you know,
probably follow my reaction to that.But you know, if I gotta tell
you, if that would my leader, I would call him out on it
(25:41):
because ultimately, you know, youhave to have a courage to move forward
with that. And I think that'sreally where you know, we fall short.
People are fearful of being retelliated againstfor calling out frankly, what I
would carefly in a trial because thatis not acceptable for him to suggest that
(26:03):
that that organizations was failing because theywere focused on diversity. Com I mean,
that's about the misters ever get Imean, he wasn't he chose that
not to even enter the room andmake him attempt and so um, that's
the sort of you know, well, he's not taking responsibility. And that
(26:26):
elephant in his room had swashed theroom. So I'm not if let me
we only have a few more minutesleft maybe maybe maybe yeah, and we're
going great, so we'll go aslong as we can here. But my
question is right, my thoughts,I'm you know, during the session again,
(26:56):
they brought up I think it wasAmy who mentioned in the notes,
uh, booth babes. Um,you know, and I'm gonna you know,
there's booth babes and they're booth guysright. Uh, these are tremendously
fit, beautiful people. Does thatbother anybody at at conventions? And I've
(27:22):
seen this at um uh direct responsemarketing at conventions. I've seen it at
financial conventions. What does it?What does a a well or a not
well clad woman have to do withselling financial services? It doesn't. It
(27:42):
doesn't jive in my head, umor a guy, it doesn't, you
know, it's the same thing.Well, if if if I could jump
in, I've hit us kind ofI've had this conversation with my brother who
was in He spent his career inthe machine tool and die in so that's
not a very female centric industry.And when I was sharing with him about
(28:07):
my experiences at Expo West, whereyou know, it's a room full of
a lot of beautiful people and alot of successful and empowered people, and
he was contrasting that with the tradeshows he went to where he said,
well, you know, in hisopinion, every woman who was there was
paid to be there to demonstrate tothe men, if you will, which
is kind of a mournful position.So certainly there's you know, there are
(28:32):
some people at Expo West who arepaid to be presented product. But on
the other hand, I do thinkthat it is we're having this conversation,
let's remember within an industry where womenare a very powerful presence and are becoming
a more powerful presence all the time. And I talked to, you know,
female CEOs all the time, andyou know, in the years at
(28:56):
the newspaper business in the business department, I can probably count on two hands
maybe the time we had interviewed afemale CEO, because they're just worn't that
many to talk to at that time. Well, I think that you know,
that's not to say once again thatwe've gotten to where we need to
be by any stretch of imagination.But but but I do think that that,
(29:17):
um, you know, the alot of these categories that we deal
with, like say, sports nutrition, personal care, weight management, I
mean a lot of them. Ofcourse, if if you want to sell
the products, you've got to sortof look the part right. Nobody's gonna
buy a sports nutrition product from aguy who looks like a flabby coast potato
and like me, yeah, gotit me. I mean, you know
(29:41):
so, But but I you know, the appearance part aside, I mean,
I do think it's a statement aboutyou know, this industry is connected
with people who are interested in theirhealth. Um. There are a lot
of empowered women in the industry,and I think that's great. And so
there's an opportunity and I'm sorry tohear Trina that you feel like you have
these problems on a continual basis asa reminder that there's a long way to
(30:06):
go. But um, I alsothink that it's a it's an industry that
has an opportunity to make these kindof changes because of this kind of representation
with the industry at least I'd liketo think so from my point of view,
with the word dismissively, we've viewseveral times what can we do as
(30:30):
an industry two medicate so dismissively hurtfulword and comment. I can think of
immediate examples just from you know,the last couple of weeks. I think
that, and you know, Ithink this is universal. We're we're really
(30:52):
talking about ally ship right and ummaking sure that you're bringing people with you
when our opportunity. So for example, if I you know, I've been
in situations where I'm very often Imay be the only woman in a group,
and I may happen on to agroup of men and I might know
(31:14):
a couple of them, but they'veknown each other for thirty years. And
I've been in the industry, youknow, a couple of years, and
I may not know everyone in thatcircle. But there are times where I'm
not being introduced. I might Imight be standing there for five minutes and
then you know, I introduced myself. I don't have a problem doing that,
but that's me advocating for myself,and not everyone is comfortable doing that.
(31:38):
And so from I think that thatis really low hanging through. We're
really talking about men being allies towomen in that way and bringing them forward.
And so you know, I thinkeven just that as a as a
as a small difference to anyone that'swatching, can make an impact today with
that one behavioral change. Let's um, let's ramp up and in about a
(32:02):
minute and start with Craig, whatcan we do to challenge the industry to
clean up a check? Well,I don't know if that can be addressed
in a minute, but I'll fillonly from the first thing, going back
the consumers. You know, mostrecent point is we should be intensible in
(32:24):
what we're doing. You know,we should be bringing women into the folds
that we're talking about, you know, combating sexism. We need to see
and we tek about the women inthe communications field, whether it's in public
relations or journalism. But we continuethat, we must continue to be intention
to continue to make sure that weare being allied for them. And because
(32:46):
I you know, I'm I'm ahusband to a great wife and I have
two young daughters and one of uscan be graduating life. We're losing Craig
sister, But I industry, youknow, bring her along ding. This
(33:16):
is a big topic there's to do. I think, um, it's important
that we're having this conversation out inthe open, but more importantly, we
need to be having this conversation wherethere's leadership in the room, because that
is where change can happen. RightIf the leaders are not on board because
(33:37):
it's not impacting them, they canchoose not to see it. So that's
a great place to start. That'sgreat that we're having this conversation right people
are watching, But I hope thateveryone watching this and everyone that watched the
panel and everyone on the panel cantake this conversation back in the rooms that
they're in behind closed doors, wherethere's leaders there, and we keep having
this conversation. So that's the onething I would urge. I think that's
(33:59):
where that's where the hard the hardwork is is actually behind closed doors.
And Hank, how about you?Well, I think the one thing I
would take away is to continue tofocus on what I can do within my
realm, which is to try todrive these these concepts as being newsworthy and
to continue to cover those stories,to try to continue to bring new female
(34:21):
voices in his sources in the stories, and I think we've done that pretty
effectively and we're going to continue tofocus on the here at Natural Products Insider.
Listen, Hank. If you everneed if you ever need some sources,
you need some new some more femaleCEOs, you come, come ask
me. I know a ton ofthem. You're on the list, Okay,
(34:44):
at the top of the list,right, Hank, Right, Okay,
good listen. Thank you all,Katrina, Hank and Craig. Thank
you for participating in our After theElephant series. We'll be back next week
with another one, and thank youfor joining us on After the Elephant.
(35:05):
There's been a special edition of LateNight Health and our response and discussion panel
to session one of Identifying the Elephantin the Room Critical Communication Strategies in the
Face of Sexism. Please join usnext Thursday at one to two pm Eastern
Time as we examine the topic ofsexism in the healthcare, nutrition, and
(35:28):
science sector of the natural products industry. And make sure you're registered for Elephant
in the Room session so you canlisten to what we're responding to during After
the Elephant. Go to Innisbox dotdfairs dot com. It's right there on
the screen. If you're not registeredyet, and if you missed any of
(35:49):
the session today or any of theother ones, you can watch them on
replay at your convenience, and ofcourse we'll see you back here on social
media for our post response and discussionon After the Elephants here on late night.
I'm Mark Ellen. Thank you forwatching until next time. Goodbye Elephants.
(36:12):
We'll see you next night. Byebye for now. Hold on, everybody,
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