December 5, 2023 • 37 mins
Episode 164 of the Leader of Learning Podcast features an interview with Lindsay Lyons (@lindsaybethlyons), an educational justice coach and expert in creating feminist, anti-racist curricula. In this eye-opening conversation, Lindsay emphasizes the crucial role of instructional processes and tools in promoting justice in education. She highlights the need for structures and processes that involve students in conversations about justice, and the significance of stakeholder diversity and representation. At the heart of it all, Lindsay reveals the power of adaptive leadership in addressing adaptive challenges, such as racism.
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Guest Information:
Lindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist curricula that challenges, affirms, and inspires all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. She believes the secret sauce of educational equity is student voice.
Lindsay's Website
Lindsay's YouTube Channel
Connect with Lindsay on LinkedIn
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The Leader Of Learning Podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. For more information and to find other great podcasts, visit https://teachbetterpodcastnetwork.com
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ACCESS MY INSPIRING RESOURCES:
Sign up for my email newsletter at https://dankreiness.com/news
“The Teacher’s Guide to Becoming a School Leader” - https://leaderoflearning.com/guide“
Lead to Inspire Growth” eBook - https://leaderoflearning.com/ebook
FREE “Unlock Your Leadership Potential” course - https://leaderoflearning.com/freecourse
Subscribe on YouTube at https://youtube.com/drdankreiness
Guest Information:
Lindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co-create feminist, antiracist curricula that challenges, affirms, and inspires all students. A former NYC public school teacher, she holds a PhD in Leadership and Change, and is the founder of the blog and podcast, Time for Teachership. She believes the secret sauce of educational equity is student voice.
Lindsay's Website
Lindsay's YouTube Channel
Connect with Lindsay on LinkedIn
Special Resource: 6 resources for leaders exclusively offered to Leader of Learning listeners: https://extras.lindsaybethlyons.com/leaderpod
Consider Becoming an Official Sponsor - https://leaderoflearning.com/press-kit
Talk Studio is my recording platform of choice for video, audio, and even live streaming. For more information about Talk Studio and to receive 20% off your first billing cycle on ANY paid plan you sign up for, visit https://leaderoflearning.com/melon
Follow Dr. Dan Kreiness on Social Media:
Youtube Channel
Twitter/X
TikTok
The Leader Of Learning Podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. For more information and to find other great podcasts, visit https://teachbetterpodcastnetwork.com
Music credits: https://www.purple-planet.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I like radically right. It's aradical view. I see students as my
colleagues. I am in partnership withthem, right, And that's the case
for a lot of educators. Itis a big departure, though, from
a lot of how we were educated. Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast.
I'm your host, doctor Dan Krenis, and this is where I help
(00:21):
educators grow their impact as instructional leadersbecause my research and leadership experiences have led
me to understand that someone like you, regardless of your role or your title,
can have a tremendous impact on yourorganization. I chat with inspiring guests
who are truly making an impact asinstructional leaders. Whether this is your first
(00:43):
time listening or you've come back formore, I hope you've subscribed to this
show on your preferred podcast app soyou don't miss any of the great episodes,
topics, or guests. Anyway,I'm so glad you've tuned in.
Now let's get started. Welcome backLeader of Learning to episode one sixty four
(01:10):
of the podcast. First and foremost, I want to wish you a happy
holiday season. If you're like meand you're listening from the US, Happy
Thanksgiving as we just celebrated that holidaya couple of weeks ago, and I
hope you're gearing up for an amazingholiday season as Hanukkah and Christmas and all
of the winter holidays are rapidly approaching. I will have a couple of new
(01:34):
episodes leading up to the holidays,starting with this one. In episode one
sixty four, we have a remarkableguest joining us. Lindsay Lyons is an
educational justice coach and expert in creatingfeminist, anti racist curricula, and she'll
be sharing her insights and experiences withus. In a very eye opening conversation,
(01:59):
Lindsay sizes the crucial role of instructionalprocesses and tools in promoting justice in
education. She highlights the needs forstructures and processes that involves students in conversations
about justice and the significance of stakeholderdiversity and representation at the heart of it
(02:21):
all. Lindsay reveals the power ofadaptive leadership in addressing these kinds of challenges,
including racism. So I am veryexcited for you to hear this interview
and conversation with Lindsay coming up.After these messages, we'll get right to
it. Welcome back, Leader ofLearning. I have an exciting guest with
(02:44):
me this episode, Lindsay Lyons.And Lindsay is an educational justice coach who
helps schools and districts co create feminist, anti racist curricula that challenges, affirms,
and aspires all students. She's aformer New Yorker the public school teacher.
That's right, we have that incommon. I forgot about that.
She holds a PhD in leadership andchange. She's the founder of the blog
(03:07):
and podcast called Time for Teachership.She believes the secret sauce of educational equality
is student voice. That's really refreshingto hear. I really appreciate that,
Lindsay, so welcome to the show. If there's anything that I missed about
who you are, where you are, and what you do, please fill
us in. I think it's hardas a listener of a podcast, it's
hard to kind of tell who theperson is if you can't visually see them.
(03:29):
So I'll just describe myself, especiallybecause I'm in the intersectional justice space
of educational coaching, that I'm awhite, cist, gendered woman. I
live on the indigenous lands of theMassachusetts and Nimuck and the pop tuckets and
everything that I do or stay heretoday is basically not from my brain,
right, it's from like the collaborationthat we always have as educators with others
and learning with those who are contemporaryto us and those who have come before
(03:52):
us. I just want to kindof put that acknowledgment out there. Appreciate
that so I know that well,first, well, I want to let
the listeners know that you and Ifirst got connected through our entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial
ventures. And I know that atthis point, you do a lot of
work, as I'm going to say, consultant, correct me if there's a
(04:14):
better term to use, but consultingwith schools around this idea of really and
again correct me if I'm wrong,like retooling and revamping, rethinking their curriculum
around it sounds like a lot ofdifferent topics ranging from anti racism and feminism.
And you mentioned actually just before wehit record here that a lot of
(04:36):
the work that you're doing is reallymore like cultural you know, working on
the culture and climate in the building. So let's start with that. I
guess I'm just wondering, like generally, and then we can kind of get
more specific from there. What areyou seeing in you know, November December
of twenty twenty three. When itcomes to where schools, especially public school
(05:00):
are at with their curriculum and inwhat areas are they really seeking that help
with, Oh my gosh, whata fantastic question. So I think that
a lot of folks at the leadershiplevel are ready for the curriculum to be
different, right, And I oftensee this in like US history courses have
been by far the most popular.I mean I am an ela literacy and
(05:24):
history teacher by practice, like inmy teaching days, so that is my
area of profession. I hesitate touse the word expertise. I never feel
like I'm an expert in anything,but I think, you know, that's
where people gravitate to ask me questionsabout. But then when we dig into
it, it's like, are weactually ready for that? And so one
of the things that I kind oftake people through is like, well,
(05:45):
we have to first have one amindset on the part of all of the
staff involved of partnership with the researchand student voice. Research called radical collegiality.
So I like radically right, it'sa radical view. I see students
as my colleagues. I'm in partnershipwith them, right, And that's the
case for a lot of educators.It is a big departure though, from
(06:08):
a lot of how we were educated. So there are some teachers who are
like, you know what, no, you listen to me because I have
the degree and that's it, right, So if we don't have that mindset,
that's like the very first place westart, and then the next piece
is really building that sense of belonging, that culture building and then starting to
layer in the pedagogical practices and justbe like, Okay, do we have
student discussion? Do we have studentvoice? Is this kind of the way
(06:30):
we run our class? Okay?Now we might be ready, And I
think there are folks who are readyto just jump right in at the curriculum
level, and we design the curriculumin a way that kind of does all
of these other things. So teachersare like, WHOA, if I give
students voice in that space, youknow the project is super cool and co
created and awesome. Yeah, Ican totally see how it would be easier
for me to let go because I'vebuilt it in that way. So I
(06:50):
think there's two approaches, and it'sa mixed bag of like people who are
ready for the work at different entrypoints. I want to ask you an
opinion question because I think you're kindof the perfect person to ask this,
and I'm not trying to throw myschool or any of the teachers under the
bus, but I will preface thisquestion by saying that in my role as
(07:13):
a digital learning coach, one ofthe things that I realized recently through some
data and evidence that we discovered basedon a teacher technology survey that the staff
at my school took, was that, unfortunately, one of the areas where
the teachers self admitted that they kindof struggle in is providing opportunities for student
(07:41):
choice through technology. And so Ireally love that I have you on talking
about this now, because what Iwant to ask you is your opinion of
how are we still in twenty twentythree not as good as we need to
be with providing students choice and,like you said, really giving them opportunities,
(08:03):
the students opportunities to be more partnersin their own education and you know,
basically like, how do they havemore of a seat at the table
of their own learning? Yeah?Oh my gosh, So as a former
tech integration coach, I am likewith you on this and I've seen the
exacting things, so I have tosay that I think about this in three
(08:24):
kind of categories, the how touse tech for and generally write any practice
of pedagogy for student choice. SoI see like content, process, and
product. So one is like,what are the forms of content of using
UDIL language, right, Like multiplemultiple means of oh now I'm forgetting it
right, multiple means of representation therewe go and so and then multiple means
(08:46):
of expression being kind of like theproduct, and then the process being somewhere
along the way. So content wouldlook like, you know, I might
put together a video, a podcast, episode, and an article right that
all convey the same information. SoI'm kind of using this multiple media sources
to be able to share with thestudents. I could also make it kind
(09:09):
of engaging, which I think getsa little into process. I could you
know, use some different apps thatlike ed puzzle right that kind of like
make it interactive or all these sortsof things. The process piece allows people
to use tools like Coggle or differentthings where you can like use some mind
mapping that are digital or you coulduse paper right, a no tech option
or you know, it's like howdo you learn and kind of put the
pieces together best? And then myfavorite is the product and that is typically
(09:33):
how I will actually design units withfolks. So it'll be like, Okay,
what's the end goal, what's thedriving question of the unit? Like
what's that really interesting thing that asadults we love our subject and we're constantly
talking about it with other adults,like this is like something we're grappling with.
There's no right answer, right.And from there the next step is
like what's what's the product, Likewhat is the project that students are working
(09:54):
on, and what are they goingto like share with an authentic audience and
make it meaningful and like they canpersonalize it in whatever way they want,
right, whether that's a content subspecialization, whether that's like the way they
present it. So I think thereare so many options there. I used
to do a lot of media stuff, so I was into like making documentaries
with my students. I've done alot of workshops on like how to create
podcasts as your kind of summative assessment. So there's a lot of different ways
(10:18):
that we can incorporate tech and likehow you present beyond just you know,
I'm typing a paper on Google Docsor I'm making a presentation in Google slides.
This podcast is a proud member ofthe Teach Better Podcast Network, Better
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podcasts at www dot Teach Better Podcastnetworkdot com. Now let's get back to
(10:43):
the episode. Yes, so thisis this is going to sound funny because
I know this is this is whatyou do, and of course if there
wasn't a need for it, youwouldn't be doing it. But like,
how comes schools? I think youmentioned this before for a little bit about
leadership, like they want to makechange, But how are schools and districts
(11:05):
having a hard time sort of auditingor analyzing their own curriculum for these gaps
in you know, well, let'sjust take student choice for example, that
maybe they their teachers haven't quite figuredout how to give more opportunities and turn
more of that responsibility for learning overto students. Yes, oh my gosh,
(11:30):
yes, Okay, So when Ithink that there are not always I
mean they are out there, butmaybe not in the hands of leaders,
Like there aren't always great tools thatintegrate all the things, right, So
we might have a tool like awalkthrough tool or you know, an observation
tool or whatever very brick that prioritizessome of those aspects but not others.
And so if you use student voiceand student co creation and partnership as kind
(11:50):
of the centerpiece and then build outfrom there, well, what does co
creation and student voice look like inassessment? What does it look like in
you know, student discussion, thatkind of thing. I think that's a
that's an opportunity for reflection. Likeif you create yourself among like the leadership,
the team or the staff, right, and you say like, well,
what are we actually looking for whenwe go in a classroom and you
(12:11):
do these walks and you kind oflike norm around this stuff. I think
that's part of it. And Ithink the other part is that there is
such hesitation, particularly when we talkabout like US history or ELA and what
books are we choosing? What storiesare we telling? Right? And when
we have legislation at a national level, right, that's like anti critical race
theory and right, all of thesedifferent pieces that people are contending with as
(12:31):
they're trying to teach truth. Right, there's like all sorts of things that
folks. I mean, even inMassachusetts, I've had leaders say, well,
actually, my district, like they'rethey're really into the rah rah like
diversity, equity, inclusion. Weput up a nice poster about it,
but when it comes down to it, we're not actually ready to take the
action steps. And while that individualleader will say hey, I'm interested,
(12:52):
the district, maybe their bosses oryou know whatever, people looking at the
politics of everything or saying actually,we're not ready. One I think there's
a kind of a concern. Ithink it's about where are we going in
our brains, right, Like whoare we thinking and anticipating will complain?
And often those are people with moreinstitutional power, you know, they are
(13:15):
the people who have more access tocomplain. They are typically the voices that
we listen to and maybe even nottake a step forward because we're anticipating that
even if it might might not happen. And then another piece is like there's
there's just not enough information about likewell what was this would this actually look
like? So what I actually walkthrough with someone who might be resistant to
the idea even themselves, a familymember, right, a leader, a
(13:39):
teacher, whoever it is, Andwe say, well, actually, here's
what this process looks like. Oftenthe result is they're saying, oh,
so the students can choose the thingthat they're studying, right, You're not
like forcing them to like take thisposition or analyze this whatever. It's like.
No, I'm teaching them to bea critical thinker, right, I'm
teaching them to analyze power dynamics.I'm teaching them like some really important skills.
And that's what it looks like tocreate. And so I think lack
(14:01):
of information and also fear of reprisal, but fear of reprisal from like maybe
not the people that we should beprioritizing in are planning exactly right. Yeah,
And as you were talking, Iwas thinking we should probably back up
a little bit and let's talk alittle bit about what student choice is.
You mentioned process and product and contentbefore, which makes me think about differentiated
(14:26):
instruction a lot, but you know, student choices is part it could be
part of that. What I thinkof student choice through technology, As I
mentioned before, I think a lotof people would would think, Okay,
giving students an opportunity to prove masteryor lack thereof of the content by using
(14:46):
technology to maybe you know, createa slide show or like you were saying
before, maybe some content like theypodcast or something. So is that what
we're talking about or what else canyou shed light up? When it comes
to like, actually, what studentchoice is? I love discussion, So
I think one of the things Itry to differentiate is the difference between student
(15:07):
choice and student voice. And sochoice to me is like you know,
a typical choice board or something likeOkay, we're going to do a do
now you can do this question orthis question right or something like that.
So that's like kind of forced choice. So we have like these options you
can choose from these. A kindof hybrid between that and voice might be
like you can choose option A Bor create your own, which is category
CE right, And so sometimes wesee that blend. I think for voice,
(15:31):
there's a definition that I'm going toparaphrase because they don't remember it exactly,
But from the student voice field,that's basically like student voice is giving
students the option to make decisions aboutanything that impacts them, right, And
so that's a big category. Sofrom what we eat in a lunch room
and how we run the class andwhat they're studying, what questions. They're
(15:54):
grappling with what pedagogies they use,how do they work in groups or individually?
Like all the things right, likehow do we what's the grading policy?
Right? Can we invite students intothat? So it's far more expansive,
and some of my work actually getsinto student leadership in definitive kind of
formalized roles as well in this schoolgovernance process, and so that's kind of
(16:17):
some schools are headed in that directionand some schools are, like, I
can't even envision what that looks likebeyond a student council that plans prom right
or or the senior trip or whateverit is. So I think there's kind
of a range of what people dothere. But that's kind of my vision
and where I go to as astudent voice piece. So then it's it's
safe to say or assume that you'reworking with schools to help them refocus re
(16:45):
shift around bringing in more student voiceas opposed to choice, because choice could
be part of that, right,it's like under the umbrella of student voice.
And so I do want to shiftour conversation too a little bit to
talk about this justice piece, becauseyou know, helping schools bring in student
(17:07):
voice is necessary. Like I said, even in my school around student choice
through technology, we're noticing still agap there, but clearly we all throughout
private public higher eds you know Ktwelve need a wake up call to shift
(17:32):
around equity and justice. So we'vetalked a little bit about your work and
what schools need to do around rethinking, just bringing in student voice, you
know, adding opportunities for student leadershipand like you said before, having students
really be partners in this area specifically, where where do we need to go
(17:55):
around the work on justice? Yeah, So I think for me, the
sustainable solution is the processes and structuresthat we have in place. So what
I mean by that is, forexample, for the student governance piece,
how many opportunities are there for studentsto be in a formal government position.
(18:18):
How many students are on your leadershipteam? How many students are on the
assessment committee or curriculum committee or whateverthe committees are at right? How often
are student representatives trained to collect data? And I often talk about street data
from Sin Safia and Jamie Ladugan,which is excellent book that I highly recommend,
and like, how do we trainstudent leaders in those positional leadership places
(18:44):
to actually go do that work andbe authentic representatives of the students that aren't
at the table but still deserve thevoice, right, So that's kind of
part of it. And then froma pedagogical kind of curriculum development piece,
there's I do think that that's reallyimportant piece that sometimes we can lose sight
of in the student voice field,which is why I like bridging the two.
The instructional piece is so critically important. But the question is what are
(19:08):
the structures and processes and tools thatwe have in place. So we talk
briefly about you know, what's theprotocol or the look for is or you
know, whatever you call them,the observation rubric that you do on a
learning walk. How often do youdo learning walks? Are students part of
the learning walk? Right? Andso all of these pieces, I think
our processes that you can then onceyou haven't in place, get to talk
(19:30):
about the justice things. So ifwe're talking about justice but students aren't actually
part of the conversation, then howyou know, how authentic are we being
to the purpose of justice? AndI think justice is intersectional, So it's
like about the stakeholder diversity in termsof students, families, teachers, administrators
right in these spaces. But it'salso the identities that we each carry,
(19:52):
right, and how representative is thatof our larger school community. It's about
being able to I think a lotof my work is around adaptive leadership,
so I think it's also being ableto figure out what are the adaptive challenges
that we're facing and treating them astechnical challenges. Right, So adaptive challenges
require those processes and structures of cocreation to get to the solution. If
(20:14):
we treat a long standing challenge suchas racism right as a technical solution,
and we say, oh, we'rejust going to do these three pds and
that will be good, Like,that's not how that works. So it's
truly identifying this is an adaptive challenge, and now let's create the structures and
then go through and use a toollike doctor street Bridge, as Patrick and
I adapted One Eye Cult's work tokind of identify what are the discussion types
(20:37):
that are happening in our schools?Right? Are they avoiding these issues?
Are they kind of polarizing? Sowe talk about them and it's like this
camp, this camp, and thenwe're divided constantly we're not like talking.
Is it just that we're intellectualizing.So this is very common with white educators,
right where we're just like, oh, like I listened to I do
this a lot, Like I listenedto this podcast and then like I got
this idea, and they're like,let's try this. But we're disconnected from
(20:59):
the emotion or the realities, right, which is where the street data comes
in. Or are we doing whatwe need to be doing, which is
like generative, mobilizing discourse that engagesin the disequilibrium. It treats it as
an adaptive challenge, and we're imaginating, imaginating, imagining new possibilities, right
that are engaged and connected to ouremotion as well as our head, so
we have a head and heart.So I think it's a lot of pieces,
(21:21):
right, so structures, but it'salso building that culture that's able to
tackle those adaptive challenges. First,I want to mention that I was in
a district a couple of years agoas an administrator where the superintendent and building
level administrators all I don't want tosay we did a book study, but
(21:41):
there was a lot of work thatcame out of street data. So I
appreciate you bringing that up, andfor the listeners out there, if you
haven't read Street Data and you're interested, I will definitely link to that book
in the show notes and the websitefor this episode, so you can go
and get a copy maybe if you'reinterested. But really really great work there,
(22:03):
and I agree, I think honestly, you know, I've reflected on
this a little bit. I'm gonnago off on a tangent for a second.
I've reflected on this a little bitlately, but you know, throughout
my career, I guess at timesI've reflected on the fact that when when
I began my teaching career in NewYork City schools and the Bronx, I
guess I don't know I had enoughof a rational rationalization going in to know
(22:32):
that, like, I grew upvery differently from the students that I was
going to be teaching, and quitehonestly, it scared the heck out of
me. But it also like justknowing that about me and about that relationship
that I was going to be strikingwith those students, it did. It
remained top of mind so that itguided my work. It really drove me
(22:56):
to use sort of like informal waysof gathering that street data and just learning
as much as I could about thosestudents when you know, I first got
there in my first year two threeyears, and that really helped build relationships.
It helped, as we've been talking, kind of get students to be
(23:18):
a little bit more a part ofthe process, a little bit more of
that that partner role. And youknow, looking back, I'm pretty proud
of the way that I was ableto just know that about me and my
students going in to know that youknow, it might be rough, it
might be there might be those likebreakdowns in communication and relationships given the fact
(23:41):
that, like we're very different,but it also it also helped in a
lot of ways too. It justreally helped us, like underget to know
each other and understand each other better. So when I when I think about
street data, as you mentioned itand and in the book, that's kind
of what I think of, justlearn about your students in ways that are
(24:03):
not your typical like you know,formative in summative assessment, you know,
tests and things like how are youreally going to get to know them?
When we when I was in thatdistrict where we studied street data, I
mean we were like literally going outinto the community and and finding the data.
You know, what are the resourcesthat are all around us in the
(24:25):
community that will help us understand theneeds of our community better. End of
my tangent. I just wanted toshare that. I really, I'm really
glad you brought that up because it'ssuch a it's such an important part of
student voice and and you know,being more inclusive of the students and really
(24:45):
just understanding what they need more sothan anything. Unless you had anything to
say again about the street data andand the justice piece, I wanted to
ask you, this is an interestingterm, and so I want to make
sure that I and the listeners understandwhat do you mean by adaptive leadership?
I really, I really like yourmention of that, and I'm intrigued that
I want to know more about that. Yeah, so there are complete books
(25:08):
on this, and so I don'twant to like simplify it too much,
but basically, adaptive leadership is justrecognizing the need to be adaptive in the
way that we respond to challenges.And one of the hallmarks I think is
this idea for me. Anyways,the big takeaway is this idea of adaptive
challenges versus technical challenges. Technical challengesbeing things that you can solve immediately with
(25:30):
like a quick you know, like, for example, some of the things
that I've seen when we talk aboutstrategic planning, for example, we're getting
on to the strategic planning committee,we're having the conversations to do a root
cause analysis. Okay, here's theissue, right, and so whatever we
come up with. So let's saythat it's some sort of like instruction is
not meeting the needs of the studentsto student data and student assessment results show
(25:52):
that they're not learning what we needthem to larn whatever. So one approach
to that is we're going to geta new curriculum. Fine, but if
we're not addressed seeing all of theother stuff, then we're that's it's we're
solving. We're using a technical fixfor an adaptive challenge, right, And
so adaptive leadership is really getting intolike the hard stuff. So sometimes I
have a whole workbook on this Ican share with your listeners if you'd like.
(26:15):
But like thinking about how to diagnoseare we even dealing with an adaptive
challenge can be a challenge itself,and so being able to look for those
that could be something where you're justsitting in a meeting as a leader and
you're kind of reflecting on like whatis the what are the nonverbal things going
on right now? What do Ithink is maybe in someone's head? But
(26:36):
we are avoiding it, we arenot saying it right. It's like the
things that cannot be named, Likewhat are those things? So I think
sometimes it's that simple. Other timesit's you know, we're we're going to
look for specific things and and wecan see like a mechanism. I think
often when we talk about justice,a mechanism that people used to avoid is
to like either rapidly change the conversationdisplace the blame, so be like,
(26:57):
oh, well, you know that'sthat's the so we can't do anything about
that, So end of conversation,right, We're just not going to tackle
the problem, right, something likethat. Sometimes people will make a joke
to deflect kind of the intensity ofwhat we're talking about, right, and
then we that's also a departure.So looking for things like this is part
of adaptive leadership work. So we'rediagnosing is it an actual adaptive challenge?
(27:17):
And then we're using kind of thatshared leadership approach that co creation and partnership
with students and families to be ableto create a path moving forward together that's
going to actually sustainably address the challengethat is adaptive, which is typically very
long standing. I mean, theseare the things that we're dealing with for
five, ten, fifteen years,and we keep going back to the third
Strategic Plan in ROW being like we'restill working on the same thing. Like
(27:41):
that's where adaptive leadership comes in.So are there ways for or what are
the best ways for leaders to reflectand identify the need to adapt, and
then what are the steps that theycan take to I guess really like start
(28:06):
implementing change and also know how notto come on too strong, you know
what I mean? Because I thinksometimes leaders they have this like Eureka moment
and they're like, oh my gosh, I just went to this conference and
I learned about X, Y Zeducational topics and we need to do this
now, and you know, thenthey come in like too heavy handed.
(28:29):
So I guess t walk us throughit, Like how do they first figure
out that they need to adapt andtweak what's happening already in their schools?
Where do they go from there,and how do they avoid the mistakes that
I think some leaders make sometimes andimplementing and actionalizing the change in their schools.
(28:52):
Yeah, so I will just giveyou four quick ways to identify,
so I'll try not to go toodeep into each of them. But one
is values, action, alignment activities. So, for example, write down,
like all the things that you doover the course of a week,
what committees are meeting at a teacherlevel, what activities are you doing with
students, what are students engaging in? Right? And then identify what are
(29:15):
the values that you hold. Soa lot of times schools already have this,
sometimes grade teams or departments have this, but then we're looking for alignment
there, right, So like,are we actually doing the things we value?
If we value and we have adiversity, equity inclusion statement for example
on our website, like what arethe actions we're taking, what are the
committees that exist, how often arewe meeting, what are the hours or
(29:36):
minutes spent on these activities compared toother activities? And oftentimes like that will
indicate that there is an adaptive challengeat play, right, We're not actually
aligned. Another one is similar acompeting commitment activity. So in all of
these I just want to name.These come from Higfitz, Grashaw, and
Linski's book that I can't remember thename of. It's an adaptive leadership book,
(29:56):
but I can send it to youin a LINKI be like to link
it in the show notes. Butthis is all coming from them. So
competing commitment activity. Ask stakeholders liketeachers, would I think would love to
do this. I had someone runthis as the coach of a team and
she was like, whoa just theresults were nuts. So teachers have so
many competing commitments, ask them tolist them out and then put them up
(30:18):
like we usually use like post itsor something, or you could use a
digital you know, post it boardlike padlet or something, and then just
say, like, you know,what commitments do we have individually collectively which
compete or directly contradict? And thenhow have we been dealing with them?
So like which one wins? Right? And oftentimes it's not the things that
we holistically like want to do ifwe were talking about like our goals of
(30:42):
our school, right. So againthat alignment piece, the unearthing the things
that must not be named activity isjust having people, you know, you
could have people just journal so youknow, this happened in this moment,
in this meeting, at the endof the meeting, have them to do
this five minute reflection. This happened. Here's what I thought, Here's what
I actually did or said. Soyou know this person said X y Z,
(31:02):
I thought, oh my god,that's racist. I actually said absolutely
nothing, and you know what Imean or whatever it is, and then
just kind of co create like whatis unspeakable in this school, in this
team meeting, whatever. And thena fourth one is identifying avoidance. So
that's that thing where it's like,what are the things that divert attention,
what are the things that displace responsibility? And so that might be you know,
(31:26):
all the things that we went throughas potential examples for like making a
joke, denying the problem exists,this is the parent's issue, right,
Any of those things are kind oflike we have a culture problem as a
school or a district that is anadaptive challenge. So that's kind of how
those are four quick ways that wouldI would do that, and then how
to actually go about solving it.So one of the important like things that
(31:51):
they name all the adaptive leadership scholarsin high Fitzcraschawandlinsky very specifically talk about the
things that we need to get toare are change in our habits or our
loyalties or our beliefs. That isreally interesting to me because when we do
a root cause analysis, for example, this is another way to figure out
(32:12):
like if you actually are getting tothe root of the adaptive challenge. If
you don't end up as like thisis a belief we hold, then you're
you're not deep enough. So ifyou're like, oh, the curriculum just
sucks, it's like we're not thereyet. But if it is, I,
as an educator or we as ateam believe that this challenging curriculum we
love our students to be able tocan't do it, like they're just never
(32:34):
going to be able to do it. That's like a deep belief, Like
let's let's go with that. Orif we give students the ability to have
voice and choice, I think they'regoing to make the wrong decisions. Right,
that's a belief I hold, andnow we can unearth it. Once
we get to that, that's thebest way to move forward. And like
I said before, it's collective it'swith the students in partnership with the families.
That's great and I really appreciate andI so love that you gave us
(32:59):
those ways for leaders to to getto know whether or not they're really facing
something that is that kind of adaptivechange that needs to happen to I don't
want to say turn things around becausethat sounds like we got to like throw
the baby out with the bath water, but you know what I mean,
like make change in their school ordistrict. So you know, that's what
(33:22):
this show is all about, righthelping educators grow their impact as instructional leaders.
And let's face it, right now, in in a lot of schools,
we're still catching up on some ofthese things that we talked about,
whether it's you know, including andincorporating more student voice, really harnessing our
efforts and and putting more of afocus around h you know, justice and
(33:45):
and issues around justice, because thereare a lot of them, and uh,
you know, all the all thethings that you do, and I
know that schools out there are reallyfortunate that you're able to help them through
some of these things. And leaderslike the ones that are you know in
my audio and are listening to thispodcast right now. So of course I
want you to let my listeners knowhow they can connect with you and continue
(34:08):
to learn from you and with youabout all these really important topics. But
also please let us know how aschool or district might even contact you to
consult with them if they want tolearn more about adaptive leadership and change and
bringing in student voice and all thesereally critical and crucial topics and education.
(34:31):
Absolutely, thank you so much forthis opportunity. So I would say the
best way is go to my websitethat's lindsaybethlions dot com and I have a
podcast that gets put on there,a ton of free resources that get put
on there. You can join myemail list. There, there's I think
a free curriculum audit. There,there's a bunch of stuff. There's also
a please to grab spot of mycalendar. So if you have twenty minutes
(34:52):
and you're like, I just wantto quick brainstorm, like this is one
of the favorite parts of my day. I just love brainstorming. So if
you have no money to be budget, no worries, just chat with me,
like we'll pretend we're drinking coffee togetherat a cafe. This is like
the work I love. So Ithink that's probably the easiest. And then
if there is a particular problem,feel free to reach out to me if
you're like I have this question,I just I just need a quick email
(35:14):
response or resource. Hello at Lindsaybethlionsdot com is the best way to do
that. That's great. What's thepodcast called I don't know if you mentioned.
Yeah, it's called Time for Teachership. So teachership being the intersection of
leadership and teaching in the classroom.I may have mentioned that actually way back
when in the introduction. But incase, in case the listeners forgot Time
(35:37):
for Teachership, go give it alisten. Head to Lindsay's website find out
more about her schedule a call.It's free, right, I think you
said, so if you need tochat around the problem and you're not sure
if moving forward is something that youneed yet, give her a call let
her know. So in the shownotes, like I said, we're going
(35:59):
to link to the street Data bookand other resources that Lindsay mentioned, as
well as of course her contact informationand her website. Really love learning with
you and from you, Lindsay,So thank you so much for your time
here and for coming on to thispodcast episode. I really appreciate it.
Thank you. This is so muchfun. Well that's it for this episode.
(36:22):
Thank you so much for listening.If you haven't done so yet,
don't forget to subscribe to this showon your favorite podcast app. If you
enjoy the content covered on this show, I want to ask you to do
this one thing for me. Pleaseshare it. The biggest favor you could
ever do for me is to pleaselet others know about what I'm doing and
(36:43):
how I'm helping educators grow their impactas instructional leaders. I hope you can
share this podcast with other educators,leaders, friends, or anyone you think
would love listening and learning. Ifyou're interested in leaving a positive rating and
review of this show, links todo so so or always in the show
notes for every episode. For moreinformation about me or this show, and
(37:06):
to access the great content that Ishare, please visit my website at Leader
of Learning dot com. That's whereyou can find my online courses, YouTube
channel, blog, how to connectwith me on social media, and even
ways that you can support the show, like donating or purchasing Leader of Learning
merchandise. Thanks again, and rememberNo matter who you are or where you
(37:28):
are, you are a leader oflearning.
I like radically right. It's aradical view. I see students as my
colleagues. I am in partnership withthem, right, And that's the case
for a lot of educators. Itis a big departure, though, from
a lot of how we were educated. Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast.
I'm your host, doctor Dan Krenis, and this is where I help
(00:21):
educators grow their impact as instructional leadersbecause my research and leadership experiences have led
me to understand that someone like you, regardless of your role or your title,
can have a tremendous impact on yourorganization. I chat with inspiring guests
who are truly making an impact asinstructional leaders. Whether this is your first
(00:43):
time listening or you've come back formore, I hope you've subscribed to this
show on your preferred podcast app soyou don't miss any of the great episodes,
topics, or guests. Anyway,I'm so glad you've tuned in.
Now let's get started. Welcome backLeader of Learning to episode one sixty four
(01:10):
of the podcast. First and foremost, I want to wish you a happy
holiday season. If you're like meand you're listening from the US, Happy
Thanksgiving as we just celebrated that holidaya couple of weeks ago, and I
hope you're gearing up for an amazingholiday season as Hanukkah and Christmas and all
of the winter holidays are rapidly approaching. I will have a couple of new
(01:34):
episodes leading up to the holidays,starting with this one. In episode one
sixty four, we have a remarkableguest joining us. Lindsay Lyons is an
educational justice coach and expert in creatingfeminist, anti racist curricula, and she'll
be sharing her insights and experiences withus. In a very eye opening conversation,
(01:59):
Lindsay sizes the crucial role of instructionalprocesses and tools in promoting justice in
education. She highlights the needs forstructures and processes that involves students in conversations
about justice and the significance of stakeholderdiversity and representation at the heart of it
(02:21):
all. Lindsay reveals the power ofadaptive leadership in addressing these kinds of challenges,
including racism. So I am veryexcited for you to hear this interview
and conversation with Lindsay coming up.After these messages, we'll get right to
it. Welcome back, Leader ofLearning. I have an exciting guest with
(02:44):
me this episode, Lindsay Lyons.And Lindsay is an educational justice coach who
helps schools and districts co create feminist, anti racist curricula that challenges, affirms,
and aspires all students. She's aformer New Yorker the public school teacher.
That's right, we have that incommon. I forgot about that.
She holds a PhD in leadership andchange. She's the founder of the blog
(03:07):
and podcast called Time for Teachership.She believes the secret sauce of educational equality
is student voice. That's really refreshingto hear. I really appreciate that,
Lindsay, so welcome to the show. If there's anything that I missed about
who you are, where you are, and what you do, please fill
us in. I think it's hardas a listener of a podcast, it's
hard to kind of tell who theperson is if you can't visually see them.
(03:29):
So I'll just describe myself, especiallybecause I'm in the intersectional justice space
of educational coaching, that I'm awhite, cist, gendered woman. I
live on the indigenous lands of theMassachusetts and Nimuck and the pop tuckets and
everything that I do or stay heretoday is basically not from my brain,
right, it's from like the collaborationthat we always have as educators with others
and learning with those who are contemporaryto us and those who have come before
(03:52):
us. I just want to kindof put that acknowledgment out there. Appreciate
that so I know that well,first, well, I want to let
the listeners know that you and Ifirst got connected through our entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial
ventures. And I know that atthis point, you do a lot of
work, as I'm going to say, consultant, correct me if there's a
(04:14):
better term to use, but consultingwith schools around this idea of really and
again correct me if I'm wrong,like retooling and revamping, rethinking their curriculum
around it sounds like a lot ofdifferent topics ranging from anti racism and feminism.
And you mentioned actually just before wehit record here that a lot of
(04:36):
the work that you're doing is reallymore like cultural you know, working on
the culture and climate in the building. So let's start with that. I
guess I'm just wondering, like generally, and then we can kind of get
more specific from there. What areyou seeing in you know, November December
of twenty twenty three. When itcomes to where schools, especially public school
(05:00):
are at with their curriculum and inwhat areas are they really seeking that help
with, Oh my gosh, whata fantastic question. So I think that
a lot of folks at the leadershiplevel are ready for the curriculum to be
different, right, And I oftensee this in like US history courses have
been by far the most popular.I mean I am an ela literacy and
(05:24):
history teacher by practice, like inmy teaching days, so that is my
area of profession. I hesitate touse the word expertise. I never feel
like I'm an expert in anything,but I think, you know, that's
where people gravitate to ask me questionsabout. But then when we dig into
it, it's like, are weactually ready for that? And so one
of the things that I kind oftake people through is like, well,
(05:45):
we have to first have one amindset on the part of all of the
staff involved of partnership with the researchand student voice. Research called radical collegiality.
So I like radically right, it'sa radical view. I see students
as my colleagues. I'm in partnershipwith them, right, And that's the
case for a lot of educators.It is a big departure though, from
(06:08):
a lot of how we were educated. So there are some teachers who are
like, you know what, no, you listen to me because I have
the degree and that's it, right, So if we don't have that mindset,
that's like the very first place westart, and then the next piece
is really building that sense of belonging, that culture building and then starting to
layer in the pedagogical practices and justbe like, Okay, do we have
student discussion? Do we have studentvoice? Is this kind of the way
(06:30):
we run our class? Okay?Now we might be ready, And I
think there are folks who are readyto just jump right in at the curriculum
level, and we design the curriculumin a way that kind of does all
of these other things. So teachersare like, WHOA, if I give
students voice in that space, youknow the project is super cool and co
created and awesome. Yeah, Ican totally see how it would be easier
for me to let go because I'vebuilt it in that way. So I
(06:50):
think there's two approaches, and it'sa mixed bag of like people who are
ready for the work at different entrypoints. I want to ask you an
opinion question because I think you're kindof the perfect person to ask this,
and I'm not trying to throw myschool or any of the teachers under the
bus, but I will preface thisquestion by saying that in my role as
(07:13):
a digital learning coach, one ofthe things that I realized recently through some
data and evidence that we discovered basedon a teacher technology survey that the staff
at my school took, was that, unfortunately, one of the areas where
the teachers self admitted that they kindof struggle in is providing opportunities for student
(07:41):
choice through technology. And so Ireally love that I have you on talking
about this now, because what Iwant to ask you is your opinion of
how are we still in twenty twentythree not as good as we need to
be with providing students choice and,like you said, really giving them opportunities,
(08:03):
the students opportunities to be more partnersin their own education and you know,
basically like, how do they havemore of a seat at the table
of their own learning? Yeah?Oh my gosh, So as a former
tech integration coach, I am likewith you on this and I've seen the
exacting things, so I have tosay that I think about this in three
(08:24):
kind of categories, the how touse tech for and generally write any practice
of pedagogy for student choice. SoI see like content, process, and
product. So one is like,what are the forms of content of using
UDIL language, right, Like multiplemultiple means of oh now I'm forgetting it
right, multiple means of representation therewe go and so and then multiple means
(08:46):
of expression being kind of like theproduct, and then the process being somewhere
along the way. So content wouldlook like, you know, I might
put together a video, a podcast, episode, and an article right that
all convey the same information. SoI'm kind of using this multiple media sources
to be able to share with thestudents. I could also make it kind
(09:09):
of engaging, which I think getsa little into process. I could you
know, use some different apps thatlike ed puzzle right that kind of like
make it interactive or all these sortsof things. The process piece allows people
to use tools like Coggle or differentthings where you can like use some mind
mapping that are digital or you coulduse paper right, a no tech option
or you know, it's like howdo you learn and kind of put the
pieces together best? And then myfavorite is the product and that is typically
(09:33):
how I will actually design units withfolks. So it'll be like, Okay,
what's the end goal, what's thedriving question of the unit? Like
what's that really interesting thing that asadults we love our subject and we're constantly
talking about it with other adults,like this is like something we're grappling with.
There's no right answer, right.And from there the next step is
like what's what's the product, Likewhat is the project that students are working
(09:54):
on, and what are they goingto like share with an authentic audience and
make it meaningful and like they canpersonalize it in whatever way they want,
right, whether that's a content subspecialization, whether that's like the way they
present it. So I think thereare so many options there. I used
to do a lot of media stuff, so I was into like making documentaries
with my students. I've done alot of workshops on like how to create
podcasts as your kind of summative assessment. So there's a lot of different ways
(10:18):
that we can incorporate tech and likehow you present beyond just you know,
I'm typing a paper on Google Docsor I'm making a presentation in Google slides.
This podcast is a proud member ofthe Teach Better Podcast Network, Better
Today, Better Tomorrow, and thepodcast to get you there. Explore more
podcasts at www dot Teach Better Podcastnetworkdot com. Now let's get back to
(10:43):
the episode. Yes, so thisis this is going to sound funny because
I know this is this is whatyou do, and of course if there
wasn't a need for it, youwouldn't be doing it. But like,
how comes schools? I think youmentioned this before for a little bit about
leadership, like they want to makechange, But how are schools and districts
(11:05):
having a hard time sort of auditingor analyzing their own curriculum for these gaps
in you know, well, let'sjust take student choice for example, that
maybe they their teachers haven't quite figuredout how to give more opportunities and turn
more of that responsibility for learning overto students. Yes, oh my gosh,
(11:30):
yes, Okay, So when Ithink that there are not always I
mean they are out there, butmaybe not in the hands of leaders,
Like there aren't always great tools thatintegrate all the things, right, So
we might have a tool like awalkthrough tool or you know, an observation
tool or whatever very brick that prioritizessome of those aspects but not others.
And so if you use student voiceand student co creation and partnership as kind
(11:50):
of the centerpiece and then build outfrom there, well, what does co
creation and student voice look like inassessment? What does it look like in
you know, student discussion, thatkind of thing. I think that's a
that's an opportunity for reflection. Likeif you create yourself among like the leadership,
the team or the staff, right, and you say like, well,
what are we actually looking for whenwe go in a classroom and you
(12:11):
do these walks and you kind oflike norm around this stuff. I think
that's part of it. And Ithink the other part is that there is
such hesitation, particularly when we talkabout like US history or ELA and what
books are we choosing? What storiesare we telling? Right? And when
we have legislation at a national level, right, that's like anti critical race
theory and right, all of thesedifferent pieces that people are contending with as
(12:31):
they're trying to teach truth. Right, there's like all sorts of things that
folks. I mean, even inMassachusetts, I've had leaders say, well,
actually, my district, like they'rethey're really into the rah rah like
diversity, equity, inclusion. Weput up a nice poster about it,
but when it comes down to it, we're not actually ready to take the
action steps. And while that individualleader will say hey, I'm interested,
(12:52):
the district, maybe their bosses oryou know whatever, people looking at the
politics of everything or saying actually,we're not ready. One I think there's
a kind of a concern. Ithink it's about where are we going in
our brains, right, Like whoare we thinking and anticipating will complain?
And often those are people with moreinstitutional power, you know, they are
(13:15):
the people who have more access tocomplain. They are typically the voices that
we listen to and maybe even nottake a step forward because we're anticipating that
even if it might might not happen. And then another piece is like there's
there's just not enough information about likewell what was this would this actually look
like? So what I actually walkthrough with someone who might be resistant to
the idea even themselves, a familymember, right, a leader, a
(13:39):
teacher, whoever it is, Andwe say, well, actually, here's
what this process looks like. Oftenthe result is they're saying, oh,
so the students can choose the thingthat they're studying, right, You're not
like forcing them to like take thisposition or analyze this whatever. It's like.
No, I'm teaching them to bea critical thinker, right, I'm
teaching them to analyze power dynamics.I'm teaching them like some really important skills.
And that's what it looks like tocreate. And so I think lack
(14:01):
of information and also fear of reprisal, but fear of reprisal from like maybe
not the people that we should beprioritizing in are planning exactly right. Yeah,
And as you were talking, Iwas thinking we should probably back up
a little bit and let's talk alittle bit about what student choice is.
You mentioned process and product and contentbefore, which makes me think about differentiated
(14:26):
instruction a lot, but you know, student choices is part it could be
part of that. What I thinkof student choice through technology, As I
mentioned before, I think a lotof people would would think, Okay,
giving students an opportunity to prove masteryor lack thereof of the content by using
(14:46):
technology to maybe you know, createa slide show or like you were saying
before, maybe some content like theypodcast or something. So is that what
we're talking about or what else canyou shed light up? When it comes
to like, actually, what studentchoice is? I love discussion, So
I think one of the things Itry to differentiate is the difference between student
(15:07):
choice and student voice. And sochoice to me is like you know,
a typical choice board or something likeOkay, we're going to do a do
now you can do this question orthis question right or something like that.
So that's like kind of forced choice. So we have like these options you
can choose from these. A kindof hybrid between that and voice might be
like you can choose option A Bor create your own, which is category
CE right, And so sometimes wesee that blend. I think for voice,
(15:31):
there's a definition that I'm going toparaphrase because they don't remember it exactly,
But from the student voice field,that's basically like student voice is giving
students the option to make decisions aboutanything that impacts them, right, And
so that's a big category. Sofrom what we eat in a lunch room
and how we run the class andwhat they're studying, what questions. They're
(15:54):
grappling with what pedagogies they use,how do they work in groups or individually?
Like all the things right, likehow do we what's the grading policy?
Right? Can we invite students intothat? So it's far more expansive,
and some of my work actually getsinto student leadership in definitive kind of
formalized roles as well in this schoolgovernance process, and so that's kind of
(16:17):
some schools are headed in that directionand some schools are, like, I
can't even envision what that looks likebeyond a student council that plans prom right
or or the senior trip or whateverit is. So I think there's kind
of a range of what people dothere. But that's kind of my vision
and where I go to as astudent voice piece. So then it's it's
safe to say or assume that you'reworking with schools to help them refocus re
(16:45):
shift around bringing in more student voiceas opposed to choice, because choice could
be part of that, right,it's like under the umbrella of student voice.
And so I do want to shiftour conversation too a little bit to
talk about this justice piece, becauseyou know, helping schools bring in student
(17:07):
voice is necessary. Like I said, even in my school around student choice
through technology, we're noticing still agap there, but clearly we all throughout
private public higher eds you know Ktwelve need a wake up call to shift
(17:32):
around equity and justice. So we'vetalked a little bit about your work and
what schools need to do around rethinking, just bringing in student voice, you
know, adding opportunities for student leadershipand like you said before, having students
really be partners in this area specifically, where where do we need to go
(17:55):
around the work on justice? Yeah, So I think for me, the
sustainable solution is the processes and structuresthat we have in place. So what
I mean by that is, forexample, for the student governance piece,
how many opportunities are there for studentsto be in a formal government position.
(18:18):
How many students are on your leadershipteam? How many students are on the
assessment committee or curriculum committee or whateverthe committees are at right? How often
are student representatives trained to collect data? And I often talk about street data
from Sin Safia and Jamie Ladugan,which is excellent book that I highly recommend,
and like, how do we trainstudent leaders in those positional leadership places
(18:44):
to actually go do that work andbe authentic representatives of the students that aren't
at the table but still deserve thevoice, right, So that's kind of
part of it. And then froma pedagogical kind of curriculum development piece,
there's I do think that that's reallyimportant piece that sometimes we can lose sight
of in the student voice field,which is why I like bridging the two.
The instructional piece is so critically important. But the question is what are
(19:08):
the structures and processes and tools thatwe have in place. So we talk
briefly about you know, what's theprotocol or the look for is or you
know, whatever you call them,the observation rubric that you do on a
learning walk. How often do youdo learning walks? Are students part of
the learning walk? Right? Andso all of these pieces, I think
our processes that you can then onceyou haven't in place, get to talk
(19:30):
about the justice things. So ifwe're talking about justice but students aren't actually
part of the conversation, then howyou know, how authentic are we being
to the purpose of justice? AndI think justice is intersectional, So it's
like about the stakeholder diversity in termsof students, families, teachers, administrators
right in these spaces. But it'salso the identities that we each carry,
(19:52):
right, and how representative is thatof our larger school community. It's about
being able to I think a lotof my work is around adaptive leadership,
so I think it's also being ableto figure out what are the adaptive challenges
that we're facing and treating them astechnical challenges. Right, So adaptive challenges
require those processes and structures of cocreation to get to the solution. If
(20:14):
we treat a long standing challenge suchas racism right as a technical solution,
and we say, oh, we'rejust going to do these three pds and
that will be good, Like,that's not how that works. So it's
truly identifying this is an adaptive challenge, and now let's create the structures and
then go through and use a toollike doctor street Bridge, as Patrick and
I adapted One Eye Cult's work tokind of identify what are the discussion types
(20:37):
that are happening in our schools?Right? Are they avoiding these issues?
Are they kind of polarizing? Sowe talk about them and it's like this
camp, this camp, and thenwe're divided constantly we're not like talking.
Is it just that we're intellectualizing.So this is very common with white educators,
right where we're just like, oh, like I listened to I do
this a lot, Like I listenedto this podcast and then like I got
this idea, and they're like,let's try this. But we're disconnected from
(20:59):
the emotion or the realities, right, which is where the street data comes
in. Or are we doing whatwe need to be doing, which is
like generative, mobilizing discourse that engagesin the disequilibrium. It treats it as
an adaptive challenge, and we're imaginating, imaginating, imagining new possibilities, right
that are engaged and connected to ouremotion as well as our head, so
we have a head and heart.So I think it's a lot of pieces,
(21:21):
right, so structures, but it'salso building that culture that's able to
tackle those adaptive challenges. First,I want to mention that I was in
a district a couple of years agoas an administrator where the superintendent and building
level administrators all I don't want tosay we did a book study, but
(21:41):
there was a lot of work thatcame out of street data. So I
appreciate you bringing that up, andfor the listeners out there, if you
haven't read Street Data and you're interested, I will definitely link to that book
in the show notes and the websitefor this episode, so you can go
and get a copy maybe if you'reinterested. But really really great work there,
(22:03):
and I agree, I think honestly, you know, I've reflected on
this a little bit. I'm gonnago off on a tangent for a second.
I've reflected on this a little bitlately, but you know, throughout
my career, I guess at timesI've reflected on the fact that when when
I began my teaching career in NewYork City schools and the Bronx, I
guess I don't know I had enoughof a rational rationalization going in to know
(22:32):
that, like, I grew upvery differently from the students that I was
going to be teaching, and quitehonestly, it scared the heck out of
me. But it also like justknowing that about me and about that relationship
that I was going to be strikingwith those students, it did. It
remained top of mind so that itguided my work. It really drove me
(22:56):
to use sort of like informal waysof gathering that street data and just learning
as much as I could about thosestudents when you know, I first got
there in my first year two threeyears, and that really helped build relationships.
It helped, as we've been talking, kind of get students to be
(23:18):
a little bit more a part ofthe process, a little bit more of
that that partner role. And youknow, looking back, I'm pretty proud
of the way that I was ableto just know that about me and my
students going in to know that youknow, it might be rough, it
might be there might be those likebreakdowns in communication and relationships given the fact
(23:41):
that, like we're very different,but it also it also helped in a
lot of ways too. It justreally helped us, like underget to know
each other and understand each other better. So when I when I think about
street data, as you mentioned itand and in the book, that's kind
of what I think of, justlearn about your students in ways that are
(24:03):
not your typical like you know,formative in summative assessment, you know,
tests and things like how are youreally going to get to know them?
When we when I was in thatdistrict where we studied street data, I
mean we were like literally going outinto the community and and finding the data.
You know, what are the resourcesthat are all around us in the
(24:25):
community that will help us understand theneeds of our community better. End of
my tangent. I just wanted toshare that. I really, I'm really
glad you brought that up because it'ssuch a it's such an important part of
student voice and and you know,being more inclusive of the students and really
(24:45):
just understanding what they need more sothan anything. Unless you had anything to
say again about the street data andand the justice piece, I wanted to
ask you, this is an interestingterm, and so I want to make
sure that I and the listeners understandwhat do you mean by adaptive leadership?
I really, I really like yourmention of that, and I'm intrigued that
I want to know more about that. Yeah, so there are complete books
(25:08):
on this, and so I don'twant to like simplify it too much,
but basically, adaptive leadership is justrecognizing the need to be adaptive in the
way that we respond to challenges.And one of the hallmarks I think is
this idea for me. Anyways,the big takeaway is this idea of adaptive
challenges versus technical challenges. Technical challengesbeing things that you can solve immediately with
(25:30):
like a quick you know, like, for example, some of the things
that I've seen when we talk aboutstrategic planning, for example, we're getting
on to the strategic planning committee,we're having the conversations to do a root
cause analysis. Okay, here's theissue, right, and so whatever we
come up with. So let's saythat it's some sort of like instruction is
not meeting the needs of the studentsto student data and student assessment results show
(25:52):
that they're not learning what we needthem to larn whatever. So one approach
to that is we're going to geta new curriculum. Fine, but if
we're not addressed seeing all of theother stuff, then we're that's it's we're
solving. We're using a technical fixfor an adaptive challenge, right, And
so adaptive leadership is really getting intolike the hard stuff. So sometimes I
have a whole workbook on this Ican share with your listeners if you'd like.
(26:15):
But like thinking about how to diagnoseare we even dealing with an adaptive
challenge can be a challenge itself,and so being able to look for those
that could be something where you're justsitting in a meeting as a leader and
you're kind of reflecting on like whatis the what are the nonverbal things going
on right now? What do Ithink is maybe in someone's head? But
(26:36):
we are avoiding it, we arenot saying it right. It's like the
things that cannot be named, Likewhat are those things? So I think
sometimes it's that simple. Other timesit's you know, we're we're going to
look for specific things and and wecan see like a mechanism. I think
often when we talk about justice,a mechanism that people used to avoid is
to like either rapidly change the conversationdisplace the blame, so be like,
(26:57):
oh, well, you know that'sthat's the so we can't do anything about
that, So end of conversation,right, We're just not going to tackle
the problem, right, something likethat. Sometimes people will make a joke
to deflect kind of the intensity ofwhat we're talking about, right, and
then we that's also a departure.So looking for things like this is part
of adaptive leadership work. So we'rediagnosing is it an actual adaptive challenge?
(27:17):
And then we're using kind of thatshared leadership approach that co creation and partnership
with students and families to be ableto create a path moving forward together that's
going to actually sustainably address the challengethat is adaptive, which is typically very
long standing. I mean, theseare the things that we're dealing with for
five, ten, fifteen years,and we keep going back to the third
Strategic Plan in ROW being like we'restill working on the same thing. Like
(27:41):
that's where adaptive leadership comes in.So are there ways for or what are
the best ways for leaders to reflectand identify the need to adapt, and
then what are the steps that theycan take to I guess really like start
(28:06):
implementing change and also know how notto come on too strong, you know
what I mean? Because I thinksometimes leaders they have this like Eureka moment
and they're like, oh my gosh, I just went to this conference and
I learned about X, Y Zeducational topics and we need to do this
now, and you know, thenthey come in like too heavy handed.
(28:29):
So I guess t walk us throughit, Like how do they first figure
out that they need to adapt andtweak what's happening already in their schools?
Where do they go from there,and how do they avoid the mistakes that
I think some leaders make sometimes andimplementing and actionalizing the change in their schools.
(28:52):
Yeah, so I will just giveyou four quick ways to identify,
so I'll try not to go toodeep into each of them. But one
is values, action, alignment activities. So, for example, write down,
like all the things that you doover the course of a week,
what committees are meeting at a teacherlevel, what activities are you doing with
students, what are students engaging in? Right? And then identify what are
(29:15):
the values that you hold. Soa lot of times schools already have this,
sometimes grade teams or departments have this, but then we're looking for alignment
there, right, So like,are we actually doing the things we value?
If we value and we have adiversity, equity inclusion statement for example
on our website, like what arethe actions we're taking, what are the
committees that exist, how often arewe meeting, what are the hours or
(29:36):
minutes spent on these activities compared toother activities? And oftentimes like that will
indicate that there is an adaptive challengeat play, right, We're not actually
aligned. Another one is similar acompeting commitment activity. So in all of
these I just want to name.These come from Higfitz, Grashaw, and
Linski's book that I can't remember thename of. It's an adaptive leadership book,
(29:56):
but I can send it to youin a LINKI be like to link
it in the show notes. Butthis is all coming from them. So
competing commitment activity. Ask stakeholders liketeachers, would I think would love to
do this. I had someone runthis as the coach of a team and
she was like, whoa just theresults were nuts. So teachers have so
many competing commitments, ask them tolist them out and then put them up
(30:18):
like we usually use like post itsor something, or you could use a
digital you know, post it boardlike padlet or something, and then just
say, like, you know,what commitments do we have individually collectively which
compete or directly contradict? And thenhow have we been dealing with them?
So like which one wins? Right? And oftentimes it's not the things that
we holistically like want to do ifwe were talking about like our goals of
(30:42):
our school, right. So againthat alignment piece, the unearthing the things
that must not be named activity isjust having people, you know, you
could have people just journal so youknow, this happened in this moment,
in this meeting, at the endof the meeting, have them to do
this five minute reflection. This happened. Here's what I thought, Here's what
I actually did or said. Soyou know this person said X y Z,
(31:02):
I thought, oh my god,that's racist. I actually said absolutely
nothing, and you know what Imean or whatever it is, and then
just kind of co create like whatis unspeakable in this school, in this
team meeting, whatever. And thena fourth one is identifying avoidance. So
that's that thing where it's like,what are the things that divert attention,
what are the things that displace responsibility? And so that might be you know,
(31:26):
all the things that we went throughas potential examples for like making a
joke, denying the problem exists,this is the parent's issue, right,
Any of those things are kind oflike we have a culture problem as a
school or a district that is anadaptive challenge. So that's kind of how
those are four quick ways that wouldI would do that, and then how
to actually go about solving it.So one of the important like things that
(31:51):
they name all the adaptive leadership scholarsin high Fitzcraschawandlinsky very specifically talk about the
things that we need to get toare are change in our habits or our
loyalties or our beliefs. That isreally interesting to me because when we do
a root cause analysis, for example, this is another way to figure out
(32:12):
like if you actually are getting tothe root of the adaptive challenge. If
you don't end up as like thisis a belief we hold, then you're
you're not deep enough. So ifyou're like, oh, the curriculum just
sucks, it's like we're not thereyet. But if it is, I,
as an educator or we as ateam believe that this challenging curriculum we
love our students to be able tocan't do it, like they're just never
(32:34):
going to be able to do it. That's like a deep belief, Like
let's let's go with that. Orif we give students the ability to have
voice and choice, I think they'regoing to make the wrong decisions. Right,
that's a belief I hold, andnow we can unearth it. Once
we get to that, that's thebest way to move forward. And like
I said before, it's collective it'swith the students in partnership with the families.
That's great and I really appreciate andI so love that you gave us
(32:59):
those ways for leaders to to getto know whether or not they're really facing
something that is that kind of adaptivechange that needs to happen to I don't
want to say turn things around becausethat sounds like we got to like throw
the baby out with the bath water, but you know what I mean,
like make change in their school ordistrict. So you know, that's what
(33:22):
this show is all about, righthelping educators grow their impact as instructional leaders.
And let's face it, right now, in in a lot of schools,
we're still catching up on some ofthese things that we talked about,
whether it's you know, including andincorporating more student voice, really harnessing our
efforts and and putting more of afocus around h you know, justice and
(33:45):
and issues around justice, because thereare a lot of them, and uh,
you know, all the all thethings that you do, and I
know that schools out there are reallyfortunate that you're able to help them through
some of these things. And leaderslike the ones that are you know in
my audio and are listening to thispodcast right now. So of course I
want you to let my listeners knowhow they can connect with you and continue
(34:08):
to learn from you and with youabout all these really important topics. But
also please let us know how aschool or district might even contact you to
consult with them if they want tolearn more about adaptive leadership and change and
bringing in student voice and all thesereally critical and crucial topics and education.
(34:31):
Absolutely, thank you so much forthis opportunity. So I would say the
best way is go to my websitethat's lindsaybethlions dot com and I have a
podcast that gets put on there,a ton of free resources that get put
on there. You can join myemail list. There, there's I think
a free curriculum audit. There,there's a bunch of stuff. There's also
a please to grab spot of mycalendar. So if you have twenty minutes
(34:52):
and you're like, I just wantto quick brainstorm, like this is one
of the favorite parts of my day. I just love brainstorming. So if
you have no money to be budget, no worries, just chat with me,
like we'll pretend we're drinking coffee togetherat a cafe. This is like
the work I love. So Ithink that's probably the easiest. And then
if there is a particular problem,feel free to reach out to me if
you're like I have this question,I just I just need a quick email
(35:14):
response or resource. Hello at Lindsaybethlionsdot com is the best way to do
that. That's great. What's thepodcast called I don't know if you mentioned.
Yeah, it's called Time for Teachership. So teachership being the intersection of
leadership and teaching in the classroom.I may have mentioned that actually way back
when in the introduction. But incase, in case the listeners forgot Time
(35:37):
for Teachership, go give it alisten. Head to Lindsay's website find out
more about her schedule a call.It's free, right, I think you
said, so if you need tochat around the problem and you're not sure
if moving forward is something that youneed yet, give her a call let
her know. So in the shownotes, like I said, we're going
(35:59):
to link to the street Data bookand other resources that Lindsay mentioned, as
well as of course her contact informationand her website. Really love learning with
you and from you, Lindsay,So thank you so much for your time
here and for coming on to thispodcast episode. I really appreciate it.
Thank you. This is so muchfun. Well that's it for this episode.
(36:22):
Thank you so much for listening.If you haven't done so yet,
don't forget to subscribe to this showon your favorite podcast app. If you
enjoy the content covered on this show, I want to ask you to do
this one thing for me. Pleaseshare it. The biggest favor you could
ever do for me is to pleaselet others know about what I'm doing and
(36:43):
how I'm helping educators grow their impactas instructional leaders. I hope you can
share this podcast with other educators,leaders, friends, or anyone you think
would love listening and learning. Ifyou're interested in leaving a positive rating and
review of this show, links todo so so or always in the show
notes for every episode. For moreinformation about me or this show, and
(37:06):
to access the great content that Ishare, please visit my website at Leader
of Learning dot com. That's whereyou can find my online courses, YouTube
channel, blog, how to connectwith me on social media, and even
ways that you can support the show, like donating or purchasing Leader of Learning
merchandise. Thanks again, and rememberNo matter who you are or where you
(37:28):
are, you are a leader oflearning.
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