May 8, 2023 • 40 mins
Episode 159 of the Leader of Learning Podcast features an interview with Jason Ablin (@jasonablin), an education consultant who works with schools on gender equity, positive faculty engagement, and school culture, and the author of the book, “The Gender Equation in Schools: How to create equity and fairness for all students.” In the episode, Jason discusses gender equity in education, our current climate around gender and sexuality and what it is doing to teachers and education in general and the importance of SEL and why it's so critical, particularly for boys.
Full show notes and more information about this episode can be found at https://leaderoflearning.com/episode159.
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Full show notes and more information about this episode can be found at https://leaderoflearning.com/episode159.
Download my free guide “The Teacher’s Guide to Becoming a School Leader” at https://leaderoflearning.com/guide
Purchase “The Transformational Leader’s Reflection Guide” at https://leaderoflearning.com/journal
Download my FREE eBook “Lead to Inspire Growth” at https://leaderoflearning.com/ebook
Enroll in my free course “Unlock Your Leadership Potential” at https://leaderoflearning.com/freecourse
Sign up for my email newsletter at https://leaderoflearning.com/news
SUBSCRIBE ON YOUTUBE at https://youtube.com/drdankreiness to watch inspirational and educational videos about leadership and digital learning
Consider Becoming an Official Sponsor - https://leaderoflearning.com/press-kit
Melon is my recording platform of choice for video, audio, and even live streaming. For more information about Melon and to receive 20% off your first billing cycle on ANY paid plan you sign up for, visit https://leaderoflearning.com/melon
Gear that I use and love to recommend:
Mirrorless camera (Sony zv-1) - https://amzn.to/3zdxKlR
Main microphone (Shure SM7b) - https://amzn.to/3Mi5SzE
Backup microphone (Shure MV7) - https://amzn.to/38M9Vqv
Budget microphone (Samson Q2u) - https://amzn.to/38MeukB
Audio Interface (Focusrite Scarlett 2i2) - https://amzn.to/3xdocWq
Wireless lavalier microphone (AnkerWork M650) - https://amzn.to/3TUlsXN
Key lights 2pk (Sokani P25) - https://amzn.to/3mcNq0X
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Budget studio lights (Neewer Dimmable LED 2pk) - https://amzn.to/392g16i
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The topic of equity may have beentrending now in education for the past few
years, but how often do wetalk about equity in terms of gender.
In this episode, we are talkingabout the gender equation in schools. Stick
around, Welcome to the Leader ofLearning podcast. I'm your host, doctor
Dan Crinis, and this is whereI help educators grow their impact as instructional
(00:25):
leaders because my research and leadership experienceshave led me to understand that someone like
you, regardless of your role oryour title, can have a tremendous impact
on your organization. I chat withinspiring guests who are truly making an impact
as instructional leaders. Whether this isyour first time listening or you've come back
(00:46):
for more, I hope you've subscribedto this show on your preferred podcast apps
so you don't miss any of thegreat episodes, topics, or guests.
Anyway, I'm so glad you've tunedin. Now let's get started a Leader
(01:07):
of Learning and welcome into episode onefifty nine. I'm so glad you're here.
If it's your first time tuning in, thank you so much for checking
us out. If you're not newto the show, well, I hope
you followed or subscribe, depending onwhich podcast app you use. Anyway,
I have a great episode coming upwith Jason Ablin, the author of the
Gender Equation in Schools, how tocreate equity and fairness for all students,
(01:32):
and I'm so excited to bring thatto you. But before we get there,
just one piece of housekeeping news realquick. I recently launched some products
and services that I'm really excited aboutand proud of, and I know that
they're going to provide value to lotsof people. First, I'm now offering
coaching services one on one coaching foreither a half an hour or an hour
(01:53):
at a time to help people bothwith their instruction if they are classroom teachers
or even in school administrators, aswell as content creation services. So if
you or someone you know is lookingfor help with their instruction, or if
they're looking to grow their impact andshare their voice as a podcast or a
(02:14):
blogger, a YouTuber, or anyother type of content creation, then that's
part of what I'm offering. I'malso expanding the offering of online courses in
the Leader of Learning Academy. Inow have three courses on leadership and classroom
instruction. Some are free, someare paid to find out about all of
(02:35):
these products and services. Though,the best place to get these updates and
news about what we're doing here onthe podcast, as well as those products
and services is to join my emailnewsletter. I regularly send out emails that
not only provide information about new podcastepisodes, but some really valuable information about
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(03:00):
products and services that I've already mentioned. My hope is that if you are
not already subscribed, that you'll goahead and visit Leader of Learning dot com
slash news and get subscribed to thatnewsletter again. Leader of Learning dot com
slash News. Now, let's getinto this episode here in episode one fifty
(03:21):
nine, as I mentioned, myguest is Jason Ablin. He's the author
of the Gender Equation in Schools,How to Create Equity and Fairness for All
Students. Jason has served in rolessuch as teacher, academic director, principle,
and head of school and holds nationalcertification in leadership and mentoring from some
pretty prestigious school administrative associations like NASSP. We have a great conversation about the
(03:50):
topic of gender Equity in Schools.And I really don't even want to give
too much away and I want toget right to the episode. So coming
up after these messages is my conversationwith Jason Ablin. Welcome back, Leader
of Learning. I have a greatguest, and I'm excited to dive into
a topic that I've only really scratchedthe surface about here on this podcast,
(04:13):
And in this episode we are goingto be talking about something that may still
be a little taboo to be honest, or at least in my opinion,
in education. But my guest inthis episode, Jason Ablin, is the
author of the Gender e Equation inSchools, How to Create Equity and Fairness
for All Students. With over thirtyyears of experience and education, Jason has
(04:34):
served as a teacher, academic director, principal, and head of school.
He holds national certification and leadership mentoringfrom NAESP and a SSP. He mentors
new leaders throughout the country. He'sthe director of American Jewish University's Mentor Teacher
Certification Program, and he currently consultswith schools, leading training and workshops on
(04:58):
gender equity, positive of faculty engagement, and school culture. So Jason,
Welcome to the show. Like Isaid, I am excited to dive into
this topic that we've only really dealtwith kind of peripherally, I think,
beforehand. So I'm really excited totackle it more head on with you.
If there's anything I missed about youand your introduction, could you help us
(05:19):
out a little bit more with whoyou are, where you are, and
what you do. No, Ithink you got it. You got it
all. And that's where I'm atright now with the work that I'm doing
and obviously going around with the book, and you know, it's interesting you're
in your introduction. The impulse towant to deal with this subject right now
(05:42):
is both a highly timely one,but also we are living in incredibly divisive
times in regards to these issues,and my experiences of going around this country
right now and talking about the bookbears witness to that, and going to
places in red states and in placesvery conservative places in this country, where
(06:08):
I'm speaking at conferences and I'm presentingand keynoting, and teachers are coming up
to me afterwards and saying, thisis all incredibly fascinating and useful, and
if I bring it into my school, I'm going to get fired. And
that's the kind of atmosphere we're inright now. I never expected that when
I started writing this book in twentyeighteen, but that's where we are today,
(06:30):
and so we've got a lot ofwork to do in terms of really
carving out this issue and making surepeople understand how would impacts education. Yeah.
I agree, And I didn't reallyknow how else to put it in
my introduction other than to use theword taboo. But can I just I
guess based on what you just said, right, and based on your interactions,
(06:54):
your travels, your consultant work,you said, you're you're basically seeing
this issue. It's timely, butyou're seeing it. I think the word
that you use were divisive. Um, I guess. My My first question
has to be why, like,how did we get here? Why are
we in this position that we're in, and why is it that in the
(07:17):
year twenty twenty three as we recordthis is this such an interesting and um
difficult topic to really wrap our headsaround, especially in education. Well,
and it's a has a fascinating history, Dan, So I'm really glad you're
(07:39):
framing that way. The the Ithink if we were to roll back to
twenty and fifteen, most of uswould be very shocked and surprised that we'd
be here today where we are twentyand fifteen mark the you know, Supreme
Court ruling that validated same sex sexmarriage in the United States US the country
(08:01):
right, and I think we're verymuch coupled with the hashtag me too movement.
I think we're seeing enormous backlash againsta lot of the progress we've made
on issues of sexuality, gender equality, understanding gender variation, and how it's
playing out with a younger generation whichis quite comfortable talking about these issues and
(08:24):
having classmates to our trans and havingclassmates who have a variety of different whether
non bondary or queer identities, andthis generation is very comfortable with it.
But there's an entire generation in powerwhich really isn't comfortable with it and thinks
that we're going down the wrong road. The problem with this framing, of
(08:46):
course, as educators Dana's trying tobe leaders in schools, is that it
takes us away from the fundamental issuethat by examining our own implicit biases in
our relationship to gender and sort ofameliorating these problems, we can really make
school much more successful experience for ourchildren. They can be more successful in
(09:09):
school, they can feel more safein school, they can feel more joyous
about walking into the classrooms and walkinginto their schools every day. And that
should be the fundamental issue that we'refocused on more than anything else. That
everyone feels as if they're being validatedand they're being their identity is being validated,
and also that they have a freedomto express themselves in experiment with gender
(09:33):
the way they choose. You know, a couple of months ago, I
interviewed Jed deery Berry on this show. Jed is out and an openly gay
man, and he's an openly gayman and educator from a very conservative area
of the country and has some strongopinions about everything from how it's dealt with
(09:58):
in schools and to even how it'sdealt with in religion. And you know,
like I said, we kind ofscratched the surface when I spoke to
him about this, and one ofthe things that we talked a little bit
about was, especially when it comesto this idea of sexuality, was how
how different some schools and districts handleit than others. I shared a story
(10:22):
I won't go too into it,because I've already shared it on the podcast
in that interview. But where Ilive here in Connecticut, my kids,
or at least my son who whosemiddle school aged at this point, has
had conversations at least in health class, if not, I believe even some
of his other classes too, aboutyou know, as you were saying too,
(10:43):
what gender identity means, you know, again not diving too deeply into
it, probably, but um,you know, some kind of surface level
conversation about pronouns and identification. AndI know, and especially after talking to
Jed, that that doesn't happen everywhere, and that can't happen everywhere right now,
(11:05):
So I guess I'm wondering too ifyou can maybe go into a little
bit more of a clearer picture forme and my listeners about what are schools
and districts in education doing better orbest? And where are some where is
it that some really need to pickup the slack in these areas? Okay,
(11:28):
that's a really great framing down becausewe have a tendency in education and
I think an educational leadership, andalso when we get very pumped up about
an issue, when we get veryjazzed about an issue, and whether it's
a social justice issue, an equityissue, it could be anything. Really,
it can be about curricular change anything. I think we tend to we
(11:50):
tend to jump over certain steps beforethat we take care of the business that
we're supposed to take care of withthese issues. So to give you as
an example, I've gone into alot of schools which consider themselves very woke.
You know, they consider themselves veryprogressive on this issue, and they
(12:11):
ask me to come in often todeal with particular matter that they're having,
or a particular issue that they're having, But they want to tell me how
progressive they are. And they've gotkids talking about pronouns, and they've got
kids talking about identity and all ofthis. But when I walk into the
classroom and I see certain practices goingon, it's like I'm walking into a
(12:31):
classroom that's from the nineteen fifties.So, you know, there's this tendency
to want to bring it down tothe kids right away. When I think
the really effective programs that I've seenare the ones that start with the leadership
and the faculty of the school first. Can I just ask you to sorry
to cut you off. Can Ijust ask you to maybe get a little
more specific, because I'm wondering andI really want to hear what you have
(12:54):
to say about how to start withthe staff. But let's go back for
just a minute. I'm sort ofenvisioning, like you said, schools and
districts who think, yeah, we'rewe're pretty progressive because we have a gender
neutral bathroom, right right, youknow, the buck stops there, and
it's like, well, that's that'snot the end all be all of really
(13:16):
being progressive about this. So whenyou say that there are classroom practices that
are still happening, that sort ofit's like, we think we're there,
but we're really not. What doyou mean by that? It's yeah,
And that's a lot of framing ofthe book, right, because my purpose
and intention of writing the book was, we have an awesome amount of research
(13:39):
over the last fifty or sixty years. It tells us exactly what we need
to be doing to bring gender equityinto the classroom and fairness for all students,
and we need to train our facultymembers and our leadership into how to
practice in these ways on a regularbasis. I'm going to give you one
simple example which I think is reallyan important It's something called bombing rate,
(14:01):
and bombing rate has been a termwhich has been around again since the nineteen
seventies, and basically what bombing rateis, very simply put, is the
rate at which the teacher interrupts studentswhen they're talking. Okay, and every
teacher in the United States can doMAYA call bob this right, because we're
all highly verbal and we love totalk. And you know, teachers realize
(14:24):
when I'm in when I do presentationsand stuff like this, they all resonate
with this, with this issue,and they do it for all sorts of
reasons. Rights. They're not doingit for you know, they're not doing
it for issues of wanting to underminestudents in a new way or to make
them feel bad. They need toget the class moving, they need to
get through curriculum, they need theyneed to keep the pace going right,
(14:46):
and a kid is taking a longtime to answer a question, so there's
a tendency to interrupt. On average, students are interrupted every second when they're
speaking, so a student doesn't evenget a chance to speak for more than
a second before they're interrupted. However, girls in classes are four times more
(15:07):
likely to be interrupted than boys arein classes. Okay, So that's a
very simple example of how we areteaching girls in particular about the question of
obedience, of asserting themselves, aboutwhat the value of their voices are in
class when we are spending so muchmore time interrupting them than we are boys
(15:31):
in the class when they're speaking.Okay, So immediately teachers are setting up
these patterns, language patterns and behavioralpatterns in class very very early. And
we also know from research that boysare receiving six times the amount of attention
than girls are receiving in class.Some of that is because boys learn to
(15:54):
be more assertive, so when theyhave a question about something, they're more
likely to really push to get ananswer to a question. Uh So,
a lot of it's very negative.A lot of the attention they're getting is
very negative. There's a real kindof punishment culture against boys in schools,
and we know we're dealing with alot of issues with boys and trying to
(16:15):
get them acclimated and feeling good aboutschool. Again, uh, it's not
helping when they're getting so much negativeattention inside of class, they're getting punished
at also three times the rate atgirls are getting for doing the exact same
thing, and these are just reallysimple practices. Now. I feel bad
(16:36):
for interrupting you a couple of minutesago, and I'm glad you took us
down that path because I didn't wantfor for listeners to think that when it
comes to that this idea of genderequity, that it has to be all
about um gender, you know,fluidity and pronouns and things like that.
(16:59):
It's it's uh, And I haven'tread the book yet. I apologize,
I thank you for sending it tome. I'm going to dive into it
at some point, maybe over thesummer. But it is fascinating, UM,
because I think equity in general asa broader term has become trendy in
education. And I don't necessarily saythat as a bad thing. I don't.
I don't think saying it's trendy isthat it's like a fad or anything.
(17:23):
It's it's important. And again,I've you know, I've delved into
it here on the podcast in alot of different ways, UM, but
this is really the first time I'mkind of going at this gender equity piece.
We've talked before about um equity oryou know when it when it comes
to UM access to technology, certainlyracial equity, but it's it's fascinating and
(17:48):
um just to hear you share someof the research and the statistics behind how
often girls are interrupted and how muchmore attention boys get and how much more
negative attention they get. It's interestingbecause I do think that when it comes
and again this is not to downplayracial equity. I think that it has
(18:10):
become trendy to look at discipline factsand figures based on what races and demographically
speaking, who's being punished more thanothers and disciplined more than others. But
I don't know if we're looking atthe gender equity as much as we have
(18:30):
been with the racial equity piece too. I don't know, what do you
think about that? Well, I'mgonna take it even a little further than
you're taking it, Dan, AndI really feel like one of the ways
in which diversitating equity inclusion people woulddo themselves so much much more of a
(18:51):
favor in terms of people understanding whatthey're trying to do. And I mentioned
this in the beginning. I thinkif if people who are listening to them
speak and are listening to them engageand going to these workshops. If they
don't see a direct line between theissues that are taking place and making kids
more successful in school, then I'mnot exactly sure why we're having that conversation,
(19:15):
because ultimately, as school people andschool leaders, that's really why we're
doing the work that we're doing,because we want to create amazing, joyful,
loving educational environments for our kids sothey can be successful with their learning.
If you're telling me that the equitywork we're doing is leading me to
(19:36):
that path, amazing, fantastic,that's great. Show me how to get
there, but it should be ameans to an end. It's not something
in and of itself for me,because I feel by doing the work,
you're also going to be doing goodequity work. By doing that work and
making kids more successful and comfortable witheach other, working together more collaboratively,
(19:57):
doing all that great stuff, you'realso going to be doing the equity work
as well. Kids are going tobe relating it's better and better relationships with
each other. But it all startswith the faculty, the mission of the
school, and the leadership of theschool who's willing to put themselves out there
for that message very very important,which kind of brings us back to what
(20:18):
you had started to say before whenI cut you off too about the I
guess it's really what the what behindall this? Right? Like, what
do we do about this? Weknow why it's a problem. You've stated
some of the research. I lovethose statistics. I mean, it's it's
sad, but it is reality.So I appreciate that. But in terms
(20:40):
of what do we do you mentionedbefore instead of schools going right to working
with students on this, to reallystart with the faculty and staff. So
how do they do that carefully?Okay? And why why I say that,
Dan? It's because this is sucha personal issue for so many people
(21:03):
about how they identify their experiences withgender, their experience with sexuality. It
is so deeply personal for everybody,right, I mean, there's no one
who walks around. I'll give youjust an example and maybe you can answer
this question also as we're talking.When I begin my conversations with faculty,
and I do this very strategically,the first place I begin with is can
(21:27):
you tell me a gender story fromschool? Can you tell me a story
which you remember either as a professionalor as a student, yourself that really
spoke to you and made you veryaware of gender issues. And what that
immediately does is when I begin theconversation that when I get the faculty talking
(21:47):
to each other, and I getteachers talking to each other, they begin
to see the universal nature of thesequestions. Nobody is immune to these questions.
I mean, Dan, I'll throwit out at you. Do you
remember a particular moment or experience thatyou had which really resonated with you in
terms of gender identity and a gendermoment in school? That's a great question.
(22:11):
I was trying to think a littlebit as you were talking about that.
Um, from my own school,you know, school career K to
twelve education, I really don't.I'm trying to think now about my career
as an educator. UM. Imean, of course, there have been
(22:32):
some students that I've dealt with whoare I don't want to stay confused.
That's not the right word. They'rethey're exploring their identity. Yeah, in
terms though of anything like from thecurriculum, I don't know. I think
(22:52):
it would be a stretch, butthere were As a former classroom LA teacher,
they were probably some stories that Iread like mentor text with my classes
that I could that we probably couldhave explored the gender issue a little bit.
Like one that jumps out at meis the book The Giver, which
has all sorts of amazing themes anddiscussions and topics that are great for secondary
(23:18):
students, but it certainly wasn't directlyand explicitly tied to the curriculum, you
know what I mean, Like itwould have been a stretch. Okay,
So you know, I'm gonna letyou brew on that a little bit because
maybe you'll be able to come upwith something and think of something. I'm
(23:41):
going to give you some examples whichhave come up a number of times when
talking to faculty and for women,there are two stories which come up on
a regular basis when we're talking aboutthis. And and since seventy eight percent
of teachers in the United States orwomen, much of the time I'm training,
I can be training in an elementaryschool all an all female staff,
(24:02):
right, and one of the memoriesthat they have is one is the Bob
cut. Right. They go theycome back from summer vacation or some vacation.
You know, we just all gotback from spring break, and their
their mom or their parents took themout for a haircut, and they come
back with this kind of bob cut, and they find themselves all of a
(24:26):
sudden confronted with all of these peopleusing kind of masculinized retorts back to them
about their new state of being.Right, somehow, their entire identity has
been now caught up in a newhaircut that they have. Right. The
other story I hear a lot,which is really painful on a sort of
(24:48):
level, is one woman spoke aboutbeing on the cheerleading team. Right,
So, on the cheerleading team,she would go out and you know,
at a basketball game or whatever itwas, and she would get comments thrown
at her from the stand because ofthe outfits that they were wearing, very
highly sexualized clothes. And then shewould come in the next day an administrator
(25:10):
would come up to her and basicallycastigate her for uniform violations. Okay,
So, on the one hand,it's totally okay that she becomes this sexualized
object when she is on you know, and the cheerleading team. But when
she's at school, all of asudden, her body is being policed by
(25:34):
a dress code which is mainly addressedtowards women's dressing right and quote unquote modesty.
Right. There are places they're supposedto be modest and there are places
they can be totally you know,these are real sexual stereotypes, right.
So, and a lot of themale faculty members, interestingly enough, we'll
(25:56):
talk about their social circumstances, andthey'll talk about something that really begins in
high school, which is the socialorganization that takes place for boys after a
certain age in middle school. Inhigh school, and boys talk a lot
about having to fit into what's calledthe boy box or a gender box,
(26:21):
where they're expected to use certain kindsof language, talk in certain kind of
ways, often derogatory, some typestowards other students. They're encouraged to make
fun of other students who are notfitting into that boy box, and they
find that later on in life whenthey reflect back on it, it makes
(26:41):
them feel bad that they had toact a certain way in order to identify
as a growing young boy and aman. And those are some of the
stories that come up during these sessions, and they really start to humanize the
entire issue. When we start talkingabout gender in the classroom, it gives
(27:02):
him a new lens to think aboutthis podcast is a proud member of the
Teach Better podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
get you there. You can findout more at Teach Better dot com slash
podcast. Now let's get back tothe episode. You know, I want
to take this opportunity, and certainlywe've talked about your book and for my
(27:26):
listeners, obviously, the link toJason's book will be in the show notes
for where you can purchase your owncopy. But I also want to give
a shout out to someone who Igrew up with. His name is Jason
Klein. He probably doesn't listen tothis podcast because he's not an education But
Jay wrote an amazing book called YesPepper, and it's basically the rest of
(27:49):
the title is girls can play baseballtoo, or girls can play ball too.
And when you were asking me thosequestions, and when you were talking
about kind of those experiences that wewe sort of all grow up with,
I guess and and those circumstances likeyou mentioned. So Jay has two kids.
(28:11):
They're both right around the same agesas as my kids actually, and
they go to camp together. Andhis younger daughter, Jay is a big
baseball fan and he grew up playingbaseball and everything. You're a Yankees fan,
Jason. My friend Jay is anotherhuge Yankee fan, so um,
you know, I think when theywere having kids, he probably was hoping
(28:32):
for a boy to you know,go out and play catch and get him
to play baseball, but that hehas girls too. What happened was his
younger daughter wanted to play baseball andquestioned her dad and questioned her place really
in sports, and was like,but dad, you know, I'm I'm
a girl, like am I supposedto be playing baseball? And I'm going
(28:56):
to get some of the details wrong, so I'll keep him general. But
basically, my friend j put outa tweet on Twitter that went completely viral
about this idea of his daughter askinghim whether or not it's okay as a
girl to play baseball versus obviously themore female or feminine sport, which is
softball. She wanted to play baseball. Well, that whole, that whole
(29:19):
thing turned into a lot of contentthat he created around it, and then
within the past I don't know,six months or so, actually writing this
book. So I want to,you know, like I said, I
want to plug your book, JasonAblin. But also I wanted to shout
out my friend Jason Klin too,and I'll link to his book in the
show notes too, as we weretalking about this gender equality piece, because
(29:42):
that's a children's book that can beread by children and two children, and
I think it's it's really important tomention here. So I just wanted to
give him that that moment. Yeah. Look, I mean, you know,
we're both of us are dad's dan, and we're trying to think I
think frame growing up and getting olderand identity with our kids as in as
(30:06):
in as human and loving a wayas possible. And at the same time,
I think we want a kids tofeel comfortable with pushing back on norms
we don't necessarily feel or are fairor appropriate as as we do in school.
We don't want school to be aplace where where there's this a serious
amount of respectful pushback from kids,where they are really pushing back. Uh.
(30:29):
You know, I take my kidsout in California now, but every
time to you know, the Yankeescome out to play Anaheim, it's it's
like a yearly tradition for me andmy girls to go down and watch those
games. And they certainly don't actlike girls at the game. You know
they are. They are vocal andloud, and they are out there and
(30:49):
they are pure brad Yankee fans,you know, as I as I want
them to be, and I wantthem to feel like the whole world is
open to them, that there arerestrictions, that they have full freedom.
I think part of that is challengingthese gender norms and being mentors to our
kids and our students about really beingwho you are and having the identity that
(31:15):
you that you that you see thatyou feel really glad you said that,
because I want to kind of endon that note a little bit. So
when you talk about being mentors toyour kids, to your students, I
wasn't sure if I was going tobring this up, but I probably won't
talk too much about it. Butwe deal with some of this issue of
(31:36):
gender equity and gender norms in myown home. I have a daughter who
just turned nine, who is notas you just said about your daughters if
when they attend baseball games, sheis not necessarily very girly, and unfortunately
it does it does still rear itsugly head among kids too. Fortunately for
(32:00):
us, I think a lot ofher teachers throughout the years have been UM
really good with her and good withthe students who are around her. But
I will also tell you that sheidolizes her older brother, my my you
know, my oldest my son.And I think in a lot of ways
it's her UM just sort of livingin his shadow and really wanted to,
(32:24):
uh kind of live up to himin some ways. But anyway, I
guess my question that I that Iwanted to start wrapping up with is like,
how then can we as educators,as as classroom teachers, but school
leaders as well, you know,how can we advocate for more understanding and
(32:44):
more empathy when it comes to differencesand equality when you know, when talking
about gender. And I guess justhow much more work needs to be done
in this area at the ground level. Right, So again, I think
(33:04):
kids are spending eighty to ninety percentof their time in classrooms when they go
to school, and I think thatteachers have to really learn how to expand
their lenses and thinking about how theirpractices are either feeding into it the implicit
biases that we see, or arethey really creating opening up new possibilities because
(33:24):
they're they've really they really understand theway in which the classroom functions to either
make these things more equitable or notright. And in my book, I'm
a practical guide, Dan, Imean I'm you know, I created tools.
In the book, I created processes. I talked about the way that
(33:45):
we need to go in and doevaluation of classrooms along these lines to talk
about it. How do we handlemath education in a particular way, How
do we handle the way that classroomsare designed? Right? So, classroom
design and particularly elementary schools is abig issue that I talk about in the
book and which I really expand upon. The other thing that we really need
(34:07):
to take a look at in avery deep way is our policies and practices
whole school. And this is reallythe responsibility of leadership in the school to
make sure that they're taking a lookat their policies and saying, are our
policies aiding and abetting certain biases thatwe have towards kids? Do I have
(34:28):
time for one more example of us? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Okay,
great, thank you. So.One of the one of the one
of the pieces of research which they'rebringing the book is the way we handle
when when boys get gets when boysget into fights in schools, physical fights.
Okay. So a lot of researchwas done in Sweden in the United
States around this issue, and oneof the things that these researchers found when
(34:51):
they looked at the documentation on whathappens when kids get into fights is that
when boys get into fights. Firstof all, when girls get into fight,
there's like six therapists in the room. We have like you know,
social emotional people coming in. It'syou know, it's a national tragedy when
girls get into a physical fight.When boys get into fights, the language
(35:12):
that's often used to describe what they'redoing is natural and normal forms of emotional
expression. Right, So are youknow, we're talking about boys and we're
saying boys are being boys. Thisis how they express themselves, this is
how they communicate their emotions, right, and we're calling it normative, we're
calling it normal. Okay. Soon the one hand, we're telling kids
(35:37):
that, we're telling boys that it'stotally okay to get into acts of violence,
okay, and that's a normal wayfor you to express yourself emotionally.
Then what do we do. Onthe other hand, we have zero policy,
zero tolerance policies in our school,So they get suspended or expelled that
policy divide right there, and theway we're framing what's going on when boys
(36:00):
get into fights versus the way we'reresponding is exactly reinforcing and exacerbating very misogynistic,
patriarchal understanding of masculinity, very toxicand narrow understandings. So I'm a
big advocate of getting rid of zerotolerance policies, particularly on this issue.
(36:22):
If we really want to help youngboys become thoughtful individuals who love and care
each other and can care for otherpeople, one thing we need to tell
them is this is not normal emotionalexpression. Okay, if you have a
problem, you talk to somebody andyou talk it out. And on the
other hand, we don't then excludethem from the very community that could support
(36:45):
them and help them grow and becomebetter people. That's one example of where
a certain policy can really have anenormous impact from a gender standpoint. And
I hope that the book will helpleaders in particular rethink a lot of the
things that they're doing along these lines. Me too, Me too. And
(37:07):
I'm really glad that we had thisconversation, And you know, I'm glad
that I can we can at leastplay a small part in trying to um
you know better advocate and educate forthese issues. And you know, again,
this is one that I hadn't reallytackled head on, but I'm glad
(37:28):
to and uh and I hope itdoes help. So anyway, the book
again is the Gender Equation in Schools, How to create equity and fairness for
all students. Really appreciate your timeand the conversation. Where can people go?
They're they're going to be able togo to the show notes here for
this episode my website Leader of Learningdot com slash episode one fifty nine and
(37:50):
the link to the book will bethere as well, or just open the
show notes in whatever podcast app you'relistening to this episode on right now,
scroll down, click the link,and you'll be taken to the Amazon page
where you can purchase the book.But if people want to reach right out
to you, Jason, can theyand where do they go? So then
go to my website Ablin education dotcom and they can email me at hello
(38:13):
at Ablin education dot com and that'san easy way to get to me.
I'm also spending way too much timeon Twitter most of the day, so
they can find me on Twitter.I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn
as well, and just reach outto me. Love to talk, love
to talk about these issues and workingwith schools and working with faculty and working
(38:35):
with leadership. I also do boystraining groups. I work with boys groups
of boys to talk about the issuesthat they're having in schools. So I've
done that a number of times,and that's been really special work. It's
exhausting work, but it's very veryvery satisfying work, and I just want
to say shout out to you andthank you so much for having me on
(38:58):
the show. Well, thanks alot, and keep up the great work
and congratulations on everything that you're doing. Thanks, thank you so much.
Well that's it for this episode.Thank you so much for listening. If
you haven't done so yet, don'tforget to subscribe to this show on your
(39:19):
favorite podcast app. If you enjoythe content covered on this show, I
want to ask you to do thisone thing for me. Please share it.
The biggest favor you could ever dofor me is to please let others
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(39:40):
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(40:02):
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you are or where you are,you are a Leader of Learning.
The topic of equity may have beentrending now in education for the past few
years, but how often do wetalk about equity in terms of gender.
In this episode, we are talkingabout the gender equation in schools. Stick
around, Welcome to the Leader ofLearning podcast. I'm your host, doctor
Dan Crinis, and this is whereI help educators grow their impact as instructional
(00:25):
leaders because my research and leadership experienceshave led me to understand that someone like
you, regardless of your role oryour title, can have a tremendous impact
on your organization. I chat withinspiring guests who are truly making an impact
as instructional leaders. Whether this isyour first time listening or you've come back
(00:46):
for more, I hope you've subscribedto this show on your preferred podcast apps
so you don't miss any of thegreat episodes, topics, or guests.
Anyway, I'm so glad you've tunedin. Now let's get started a Leader
(01:07):
of Learning and welcome into episode onefifty nine. I'm so glad you're here.
If it's your first time tuning in, thank you so much for checking
us out. If you're not newto the show, well, I hope
you followed or subscribe, depending onwhich podcast app you use. Anyway,
I have a great episode coming upwith Jason Ablin, the author of the
Gender Equation in Schools, how tocreate equity and fairness for all students,
(01:32):
and I'm so excited to bring thatto you. But before we get there,
just one piece of housekeeping news realquick. I recently launched some products
and services that I'm really excited aboutand proud of, and I know that
they're going to provide value to lotsof people. First, I'm now offering
coaching services one on one coaching foreither a half an hour or an hour
(01:53):
at a time to help people bothwith their instruction if they are classroom teachers
or even in school administrators, aswell as content creation services. So if
you or someone you know is lookingfor help with their instruction, or if
they're looking to grow their impact andshare their voice as a podcast or a
(02:14):
blogger, a YouTuber, or anyother type of content creation, then that's
part of what I'm offering. I'malso expanding the offering of online courses in
the Leader of Learning Academy. Inow have three courses on leadership and classroom
instruction. Some are free, someare paid to find out about all of
(02:35):
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and services is to join my emailnewsletter. I regularly send out emails that
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(03:00):
products and services that I've already mentioned. My hope is that if you are
not already subscribed, that you'll goahead and visit Leader of Learning dot com
slash news and get subscribed to thatnewsletter again. Leader of Learning dot com
slash News. Now, let's getinto this episode here in episode one fifty
(03:21):
nine, as I mentioned, myguest is Jason Ablin. He's the author
of the Gender Equation in Schools,How to Create Equity and Fairness for All
Students. Jason has served in rolessuch as teacher, academic director, principle,
and head of school and holds nationalcertification in leadership and mentoring from some
pretty prestigious school administrative associations like NASSP. We have a great conversation about the
(03:50):
topic of gender Equity in Schools.And I really don't even want to give
too much away and I want toget right to the episode. So coming
up after these messages is my conversationwith Jason Ablin. Welcome back, Leader
of Learning. I have a greatguest, and I'm excited to dive into
a topic that I've only really scratchedthe surface about here on this podcast,
(04:13):
And in this episode we are goingto be talking about something that may still
be a little taboo to be honest, or at least in my opinion,
in education. But my guest inthis episode, Jason Ablin, is the
author of the Gender e Equation inSchools, How to Create Equity and Fairness
for All Students. With over thirtyyears of experience and education, Jason has
(04:34):
served as a teacher, academic director, principal, and head of school.
He holds national certification and leadership mentoringfrom NAESP and a SSP. He mentors
new leaders throughout the country. He'sthe director of American Jewish University's Mentor Teacher
Certification Program, and he currently consultswith schools, leading training and workshops on
(04:58):
gender equity, positive of faculty engagement, and school culture. So Jason,
Welcome to the show. Like Isaid, I am excited to dive into
this topic that we've only really dealtwith kind of peripherally, I think,
beforehand. So I'm really excited totackle it more head on with you.
If there's anything I missed about youand your introduction, could you help us
(05:19):
out a little bit more with whoyou are, where you are, and
what you do. No, Ithink you got it. You got it
all. And that's where I'm atright now with the work that I'm doing
and obviously going around with the book, and you know, it's interesting you're
in your introduction. The impulse towant to deal with this subject right now
(05:42):
is both a highly timely one,but also we are living in incredibly divisive
times in regards to these issues,and my experiences of going around this country
right now and talking about the bookbears witness to that, and going to
places in red states and in placesvery conservative places in this country, where
(06:08):
I'm speaking at conferences and I'm presentingand keynoting, and teachers are coming up
to me afterwards and saying, thisis all incredibly fascinating and useful, and
if I bring it into my school, I'm going to get fired. And
that's the kind of atmosphere we're inright now. I never expected that when
I started writing this book in twentyeighteen, but that's where we are today,
(06:30):
and so we've got a lot ofwork to do in terms of really
carving out this issue and making surepeople understand how would impacts education. Yeah.
I agree, And I didn't reallyknow how else to put it in
my introduction other than to use theword taboo. But can I just I
guess based on what you just said, right, and based on your interactions,
(06:54):
your travels, your consultant work,you said, you're you're basically seeing
this issue. It's timely, butyou're seeing it. I think the word
that you use were divisive. Um, I guess. My My first question
has to be why, like,how did we get here? Why are
we in this position that we're in, and why is it that in the
(07:17):
year twenty twenty three as we recordthis is this such an interesting and um
difficult topic to really wrap our headsaround, especially in education. Well,
and it's a has a fascinating history, Dan, So I'm really glad you're
(07:39):
framing that way. The the Ithink if we were to roll back to
twenty and fifteen, most of uswould be very shocked and surprised that we'd
be here today where we are twentyand fifteen mark the you know, Supreme
Court ruling that validated same sex sexmarriage in the United States US the country
(08:01):
right, and I think we're verymuch coupled with the hashtag me too movement.
I think we're seeing enormous backlash againsta lot of the progress we've made
on issues of sexuality, gender equality, understanding gender variation, and how it's
playing out with a younger generation whichis quite comfortable talking about these issues and
(08:24):
having classmates to our trans and havingclassmates who have a variety of different whether
non bondary or queer identities, andthis generation is very comfortable with it.
But there's an entire generation in powerwhich really isn't comfortable with it and thinks
that we're going down the wrong road. The problem with this framing, of
(08:46):
course, as educators Dana's trying tobe leaders in schools, is that it
takes us away from the fundamental issuethat by examining our own implicit biases in
our relationship to gender and sort ofameliorating these problems, we can really make
school much more successful experience for ourchildren. They can be more successful in
(09:09):
school, they can feel more safein school, they can feel more joyous
about walking into the classrooms and walkinginto their schools every day. And that
should be the fundamental issue that we'refocused on more than anything else. That
everyone feels as if they're being validatedand they're being their identity is being validated,
and also that they have a freedomto express themselves in experiment with gender
(09:33):
the way they choose. You know, a couple of months ago, I
interviewed Jed deery Berry on this show. Jed is out and an openly gay
man, and he's an openly gayman and educator from a very conservative area
of the country and has some strongopinions about everything from how it's dealt with
(09:58):
in schools and to even how it'sdealt with in religion. And you know,
like I said, we kind ofscratched the surface when I spoke to
him about this, and one ofthe things that we talked a little bit
about was, especially when it comesto this idea of sexuality, was how
how different some schools and districts handleit than others. I shared a story
(10:22):
I won't go too into it,because I've already shared it on the podcast
in that interview. But where Ilive here in Connecticut, my kids,
or at least my son who whosemiddle school aged at this point, has
had conversations at least in health class, if not, I believe even some
of his other classes too, aboutyou know, as you were saying too,
(10:43):
what gender identity means, you know, again not diving too deeply into
it, probably, but um,you know, some kind of surface level
conversation about pronouns and identification. AndI know, and especially after talking to
Jed, that that doesn't happen everywhere, and that can't happen everywhere right now,
(11:05):
So I guess I'm wondering too ifyou can maybe go into a little
bit more of a clearer picture forme and my listeners about what are schools
and districts in education doing better orbest? And where are some where is
it that some really need to pickup the slack in these areas? Okay,
(11:28):
that's a really great framing down becausewe have a tendency in education and
I think an educational leadership, andalso when we get very pumped up about
an issue, when we get veryjazzed about an issue, and whether it's
a social justice issue, an equityissue, it could be anything. Really,
it can be about curricular change anything. I think we tend to we
(11:50):
tend to jump over certain steps beforethat we take care of the business that
we're supposed to take care of withthese issues. So to give you as
an example, I've gone into alot of schools which consider themselves very woke.
You know, they consider themselves veryprogressive on this issue, and they
(12:11):
ask me to come in often todeal with particular matter that they're having,
or a particular issue that they're having, But they want to tell me how
progressive they are. And they've gotkids talking about pronouns, and they've got
kids talking about identity and all ofthis. But when I walk into the
classroom and I see certain practices goingon, it's like I'm walking into a
(12:31):
classroom that's from the nineteen fifties.So, you know, there's this tendency
to want to bring it down tothe kids right away. When I think
the really effective programs that I've seenare the ones that start with the leadership
and the faculty of the school first. Can I just ask you to sorry
to cut you off. Can Ijust ask you to maybe get a little
more specific, because I'm wondering andI really want to hear what you have
(12:54):
to say about how to start withthe staff. But let's go back for
just a minute. I'm sort ofenvisioning, like you said, schools and
districts who think, yeah, we'rewe're pretty progressive because we have a gender
neutral bathroom, right right, youknow, the buck stops there, and
it's like, well, that's that'snot the end all be all of really
(13:16):
being progressive about this. So whenyou say that there are classroom practices that
are still happening, that sort ofit's like, we think we're there,
but we're really not. What doyou mean by that? It's yeah,
And that's a lot of framing ofthe book, right, because my purpose
and intention of writing the book was, we have an awesome amount of research
(13:39):
over the last fifty or sixty years. It tells us exactly what we need
to be doing to bring gender equityinto the classroom and fairness for all students,
and we need to train our facultymembers and our leadership into how to
practice in these ways on a regularbasis. I'm going to give you one
simple example which I think is reallyan important It's something called bombing rate,
(14:01):
and bombing rate has been a termwhich has been around again since the nineteen
seventies, and basically what bombing rateis, very simply put, is the
rate at which the teacher interrupts studentswhen they're talking. Okay, and every
teacher in the United States can doMAYA call bob this right, because we're
all highly verbal and we love totalk. And you know, teachers realize
(14:24):
when I'm in when I do presentationsand stuff like this, they all resonate
with this, with this issue,and they do it for all sorts of
reasons. Rights. They're not doingit for you know, they're not doing
it for issues of wanting to underminestudents in a new way or to make
them feel bad. They need toget the class moving, they need to
get through curriculum, they need theyneed to keep the pace going right,
(14:46):
and a kid is taking a longtime to answer a question, so there's
a tendency to interrupt. On average, students are interrupted every second when they're
speaking, so a student doesn't evenget a chance to speak for more than
a second before they're interrupted. However, girls in classes are four times more
(15:07):
likely to be interrupted than boys arein classes. Okay, So that's a
very simple example of how we areteaching girls in particular about the question of
obedience, of asserting themselves, aboutwhat the value of their voices are in
class when we are spending so muchmore time interrupting them than we are boys
(15:31):
in the class when they're speaking.Okay, So immediately teachers are setting up
these patterns, language patterns and behavioralpatterns in class very very early. And
we also know from research that boysare receiving six times the amount of attention
than girls are receiving in class.Some of that is because boys learn to
(15:54):
be more assertive, so when theyhave a question about something, they're more
likely to really push to get ananswer to a question. Uh So,
a lot of it's very negative.A lot of the attention they're getting is
very negative. There's a real kindof punishment culture against boys in schools,
and we know we're dealing with alot of issues with boys and trying to
(16:15):
get them acclimated and feeling good aboutschool. Again, uh, it's not
helping when they're getting so much negativeattention inside of class, they're getting punished
at also three times the rate atgirls are getting for doing the exact same
thing, and these are just reallysimple practices. Now. I feel bad
(16:36):
for interrupting you a couple of minutesago, and I'm glad you took us
down that path because I didn't wantfor for listeners to think that when it
comes to that this idea of genderequity, that it has to be all
about um gender, you know,fluidity and pronouns and things like that.
(16:59):
It's it's uh, And I haven'tread the book yet. I apologize,
I thank you for sending it tome. I'm going to dive into it
at some point, maybe over thesummer. But it is fascinating, UM,
because I think equity in general asa broader term has become trendy in
education. And I don't necessarily saythat as a bad thing. I don't.
I don't think saying it's trendy isthat it's like a fad or anything.
(17:23):
It's it's important. And again,I've you know, I've delved into
it here on the podcast in alot of different ways, UM, but
this is really the first time I'mkind of going at this gender equity piece.
We've talked before about um equity oryou know when it when it comes
to UM access to technology, certainlyracial equity, but it's it's fascinating and
(17:48):
um just to hear you share someof the research and the statistics behind how
often girls are interrupted and how muchmore attention boys get and how much more
negative attention they get. It's interestingbecause I do think that when it comes
and again this is not to downplayracial equity. I think that it has
(18:10):
become trendy to look at discipline factsand figures based on what races and demographically
speaking, who's being punished more thanothers and disciplined more than others. But
I don't know if we're looking atthe gender equity as much as we have
(18:30):
been with the racial equity piece too. I don't know, what do you
think about that? Well, I'mgonna take it even a little further than
you're taking it, Dan, AndI really feel like one of the ways
in which diversitating equity inclusion people woulddo themselves so much much more of a
(18:51):
favor in terms of people understanding whatthey're trying to do. And I mentioned
this in the beginning. I thinkif if people who are listening to them
speak and are listening to them engageand going to these workshops. If they
don't see a direct line between theissues that are taking place and making kids
more successful in school, then I'mnot exactly sure why we're having that conversation,
(19:15):
because ultimately, as school people andschool leaders, that's really why we're
doing the work that we're doing,because we want to create amazing, joyful,
loving educational environments for our kids sothey can be successful with their learning.
If you're telling me that the equitywork we're doing is leading me to
(19:36):
that path, amazing, fantastic,that's great. Show me how to get
there, but it should be ameans to an end. It's not something
in and of itself for me,because I feel by doing the work,
you're also going to be doing goodequity work. By doing that work and
making kids more successful and comfortable witheach other, working together more collaboratively,
(19:57):
doing all that great stuff, you'realso going to be doing the equity work
as well. Kids are going tobe relating it's better and better relationships with
each other. But it all startswith the faculty, the mission of the
school, and the leadership of theschool who's willing to put themselves out there
for that message very very important,which kind of brings us back to what
(20:18):
you had started to say before whenI cut you off too about the I
guess it's really what the what behindall this? Right? Like, what
do we do about this? Weknow why it's a problem. You've stated
some of the research. I lovethose statistics. I mean, it's it's
sad, but it is reality.So I appreciate that. But in terms
(20:40):
of what do we do you mentionedbefore instead of schools going right to working
with students on this, to reallystart with the faculty and staff. So
how do they do that carefully?Okay? And why why I say that,
Dan? It's because this is sucha personal issue for so many people
(21:03):
about how they identify their experiences withgender, their experience with sexuality. It
is so deeply personal for everybody,right, I mean, there's no one
who walks around. I'll give youjust an example and maybe you can answer
this question also as we're talking.When I begin my conversations with faculty,
and I do this very strategically,the first place I begin with is can
(21:27):
you tell me a gender story fromschool? Can you tell me a story
which you remember either as a professionalor as a student, yourself that really
spoke to you and made you veryaware of gender issues. And what that
immediately does is when I begin theconversation that when I get the faculty talking
(21:47):
to each other, and I getteachers talking to each other, they begin
to see the universal nature of thesequestions. Nobody is immune to these questions.
I mean, Dan, I'll throwit out at you. Do you
remember a particular moment or experience thatyou had which really resonated with you in
terms of gender identity and a gendermoment in school? That's a great question.
(22:11):
I was trying to think a littlebit as you were talking about that.
Um, from my own school,you know, school career K to
twelve education, I really don't.I'm trying to think now about my career
as an educator. UM. Imean, of course, there have been
(22:32):
some students that I've dealt with whoare I don't want to stay confused.
That's not the right word. They'rethey're exploring their identity. Yeah, in
terms though of anything like from thecurriculum, I don't know. I think
(22:52):
it would be a stretch, butthere were As a former classroom LA teacher,
they were probably some stories that Iread like mentor text with my classes
that I could that we probably couldhave explored the gender issue a little bit.
Like one that jumps out at meis the book The Giver, which
has all sorts of amazing themes anddiscussions and topics that are great for secondary
(23:18):
students, but it certainly wasn't directlyand explicitly tied to the curriculum, you
know what I mean, Like itwould have been a stretch. Okay,
So you know, I'm gonna letyou brew on that a little bit because
maybe you'll be able to come upwith something and think of something. I'm
(23:41):
going to give you some examples whichhave come up a number of times when
talking to faculty and for women,there are two stories which come up on
a regular basis when we're talking aboutthis. And and since seventy eight percent
of teachers in the United States orwomen, much of the time I'm training,
I can be training in an elementaryschool all an all female staff,
(24:02):
right, and one of the memoriesthat they have is one is the Bob
cut. Right. They go theycome back from summer vacation or some vacation.
You know, we just all gotback from spring break, and their
their mom or their parents took themout for a haircut, and they come
back with this kind of bob cut, and they find themselves all of a
(24:26):
sudden confronted with all of these peopleusing kind of masculinized retorts back to them
about their new state of being.Right, somehow, their entire identity has
been now caught up in a newhaircut that they have. Right. The
other story I hear a lot,which is really painful on a sort of
(24:48):
level, is one woman spoke aboutbeing on the cheerleading team. Right,
So, on the cheerleading team,she would go out and you know,
at a basketball game or whatever itwas, and she would get comments thrown
at her from the stand because ofthe outfits that they were wearing, very
highly sexualized clothes. And then shewould come in the next day an administrator
(25:10):
would come up to her and basicallycastigate her for uniform violations. Okay,
So, on the one hand,it's totally okay that she becomes this sexualized
object when she is on you know, and the cheerleading team. But when
she's at school, all of asudden, her body is being policed by
(25:34):
a dress code which is mainly addressedtowards women's dressing right and quote unquote modesty.
Right. There are places they're supposedto be modest and there are places
they can be totally you know,these are real sexual stereotypes, right.
So, and a lot of themale faculty members, interestingly enough, we'll
(25:56):
talk about their social circumstances, andthey'll talk about something that really begins in
high school, which is the socialorganization that takes place for boys after a
certain age in middle school. Inhigh school, and boys talk a lot
about having to fit into what's calledthe boy box or a gender box,
(26:21):
where they're expected to use certain kindsof language, talk in certain kind of
ways, often derogatory, some typestowards other students. They're encouraged to make
fun of other students who are notfitting into that boy box, and they
find that later on in life whenthey reflect back on it, it makes
(26:41):
them feel bad that they had toact a certain way in order to identify
as a growing young boy and aman. And those are some of the
stories that come up during these sessions, and they really start to humanize the
entire issue. When we start talkingabout gender in the classroom, it gives
(27:02):
him a new lens to think aboutthis podcast is a proud member of the
Teach Better podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
get you there. You can findout more at Teach Better dot com slash
podcast. Now let's get back tothe episode. You know, I want
to take this opportunity, and certainlywe've talked about your book and for my
(27:26):
listeners, obviously, the link toJason's book will be in the show notes
for where you can purchase your owncopy. But I also want to give
a shout out to someone who Igrew up with. His name is Jason
Klein. He probably doesn't listen tothis podcast because he's not an education But
Jay wrote an amazing book called YesPepper, and it's basically the rest of
(27:49):
the title is girls can play baseballtoo, or girls can play ball too.
And when you were asking me thosequestions, and when you were talking
about kind of those experiences that wewe sort of all grow up with,
I guess and and those circumstances likeyou mentioned. So Jay has two kids.
(28:11):
They're both right around the same agesas as my kids actually, and
they go to camp together. Andhis younger daughter, Jay is a big
baseball fan and he grew up playingbaseball and everything. You're a Yankees fan,
Jason. My friend Jay is anotherhuge Yankee fan, so um,
you know, I think when theywere having kids, he probably was hoping
(28:32):
for a boy to you know,go out and play catch and get him
to play baseball, but that hehas girls too. What happened was his
younger daughter wanted to play baseball andquestioned her dad and questioned her place really
in sports, and was like,but dad, you know, I'm I'm
a girl, like am I supposedto be playing baseball? And I'm going
(28:56):
to get some of the details wrong, so I'll keep him general. But
basically, my friend j put outa tweet on Twitter that went completely viral
about this idea of his daughter askinghim whether or not it's okay as a
girl to play baseball versus obviously themore female or feminine sport, which is
softball. She wanted to play baseball. Well, that whole, that whole
(29:19):
thing turned into a lot of contentthat he created around it, and then
within the past I don't know,six months or so, actually writing this
book. So I want to,you know, like I said, I
want to plug your book, JasonAblin. But also I wanted to shout
out my friend Jason Klin too,and I'll link to his book in the
show notes too, as we weretalking about this gender equality piece, because
(29:42):
that's a children's book that can beread by children and two children, and
I think it's it's really important tomention here. So I just wanted to
give him that that moment. Yeah. Look, I mean, you know,
we're both of us are dad's dan, and we're trying to think I
think frame growing up and getting olderand identity with our kids as in as
(30:06):
in as human and loving a wayas possible. And at the same time,
I think we want a kids tofeel comfortable with pushing back on norms
we don't necessarily feel or are fairor appropriate as as we do in school.
We don't want school to be aplace where where there's this a serious
amount of respectful pushback from kids,where they are really pushing back. Uh.
(30:29):
You know, I take my kidsout in California now, but every
time to you know, the Yankeescome out to play Anaheim, it's it's
like a yearly tradition for me andmy girls to go down and watch those
games. And they certainly don't actlike girls at the game. You know
they are. They are vocal andloud, and they are out there and
(30:49):
they are pure brad Yankee fans,you know, as I as I want
them to be, and I wantthem to feel like the whole world is
open to them, that there arerestrictions, that they have full freedom.
I think part of that is challengingthese gender norms and being mentors to our
kids and our students about really beingwho you are and having the identity that
(31:15):
you that you that you see thatyou feel really glad you said that,
because I want to kind of endon that note a little bit. So
when you talk about being mentors toyour kids, to your students, I
wasn't sure if I was going tobring this up, but I probably won't
talk too much about it. Butwe deal with some of this issue of
(31:36):
gender equity and gender norms in myown home. I have a daughter who
just turned nine, who is notas you just said about your daughters if
when they attend baseball games, sheis not necessarily very girly, and unfortunately
it does it does still rear itsugly head among kids too. Fortunately for
(32:00):
us, I think a lot ofher teachers throughout the years have been UM
really good with her and good withthe students who are around her. But
I will also tell you that sheidolizes her older brother, my my you
know, my oldest my son.And I think in a lot of ways
it's her UM just sort of livingin his shadow and really wanted to,
(32:24):
uh kind of live up to himin some ways. But anyway, I
guess my question that I that Iwanted to start wrapping up with is like,
how then can we as educators,as as classroom teachers, but school
leaders as well, you know,how can we advocate for more understanding and
(32:44):
more empathy when it comes to differencesand equality when you know, when talking
about gender. And I guess justhow much more work needs to be done
in this area at the ground level. Right, So again, I think
(33:04):
kids are spending eighty to ninety percentof their time in classrooms when they go
to school, and I think thatteachers have to really learn how to expand
their lenses and thinking about how theirpractices are either feeding into it the implicit
biases that we see, or arethey really creating opening up new possibilities because
(33:24):
they're they've really they really understand theway in which the classroom functions to either
make these things more equitable or notright. And in my book, I'm
a practical guide, Dan, Imean I'm you know, I created tools.
In the book, I created processes. I talked about the way that
(33:45):
we need to go in and doevaluation of classrooms along these lines to talk
about it. How do we handlemath education in a particular way, How
do we handle the way that classroomsare designed? Right? So, classroom
design and particularly elementary schools is abig issue that I talk about in the
book and which I really expand upon. The other thing that we really need
(34:07):
to take a look at in avery deep way is our policies and practices
whole school. And this is reallythe responsibility of leadership in the school to
make sure that they're taking a lookat their policies and saying, are our
policies aiding and abetting certain biases thatwe have towards kids? Do I have
(34:28):
time for one more example of us? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Okay,
great, thank you. So.One of the one of the one
of the pieces of research which they'rebringing the book is the way we handle
when when boys get gets when boysget into fights in schools, physical fights.
Okay. So a lot of researchwas done in Sweden in the United
States around this issue, and oneof the things that these researchers found when
(34:51):
they looked at the documentation on whathappens when kids get into fights is that
when boys get into fights. Firstof all, when girls get into fight,
there's like six therapists in the room. We have like you know,
social emotional people coming in. It'syou know, it's a national tragedy when
girls get into a physical fight.When boys get into fights, the language
(35:12):
that's often used to describe what they'redoing is natural and normal forms of emotional
expression. Right, So are youknow, we're talking about boys and we're
saying boys are being boys. Thisis how they express themselves, this is
how they communicate their emotions, right, and we're calling it normative, we're
calling it normal. Okay. Soon the one hand, we're telling kids
(35:37):
that, we're telling boys that it'stotally okay to get into acts of violence,
okay, and that's a normal wayfor you to express yourself emotionally.
Then what do we do. Onthe other hand, we have zero policy,
zero tolerance policies in our school,So they get suspended or expelled that
policy divide right there, and theway we're framing what's going on when boys
(36:00):
get into fights versus the way we'reresponding is exactly reinforcing and exacerbating very misogynistic,
patriarchal understanding of masculinity, very toxicand narrow understandings. So I'm a
big advocate of getting rid of zerotolerance policies, particularly on this issue.
(36:22):
If we really want to help youngboys become thoughtful individuals who love and care
each other and can care for otherpeople, one thing we need to tell
them is this is not normal emotionalexpression. Okay, if you have a
problem, you talk to somebody andyou talk it out. And on the
other hand, we don't then excludethem from the very community that could support
(36:45):
them and help them grow and becomebetter people. That's one example of where
a certain policy can really have anenormous impact from a gender standpoint. And
I hope that the book will helpleaders in particular rethink a lot of the
things that they're doing along these lines. Me too, Me too. And
(37:07):
I'm really glad that we had thisconversation, And you know, I'm glad
that I can we can at leastplay a small part in trying to um
you know better advocate and educate forthese issues. And you know, again,
this is one that I hadn't reallytackled head on, but I'm glad
(37:28):
to and uh and I hope itdoes help. So anyway, the book
again is the Gender Equation in Schools, How to create equity and fairness for
all students. Really appreciate your timeand the conversation. Where can people go?
They're they're going to be able togo to the show notes here for
this episode my website Leader of Learningdot com slash episode one fifty nine and
(37:50):
the link to the book will bethere as well, or just open the
show notes in whatever podcast app you'relistening to this episode on right now,
scroll down, click the link,and you'll be taken to the Amazon page
where you can purchase the book.But if people want to reach right out
to you, Jason, can theyand where do they go? So then
go to my website Ablin education dotcom and they can email me at hello
(38:13):
at Ablin education dot com and that'san easy way to get to me.
I'm also spending way too much timeon Twitter most of the day, so
they can find me on Twitter.I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn
as well, and just reach outto me. Love to talk, love
to talk about these issues and workingwith schools and working with faculty and working
(38:35):
with leadership. I also do boystraining groups. I work with boys groups
of boys to talk about the issuesthat they're having in schools. So I've
done that a number of times,and that's been really special work. It's
exhausting work, but it's very veryvery satisfying work, and I just want
to say shout out to you andthank you so much for having me on
(38:58):
the show. Well, thanks alot, and keep up the great work
and congratulations on everything that you're doing. Thanks, thank you so much.
Well that's it for this episode.Thank you so much for listening. If
you haven't done so yet, don'tforget to subscribe to this show on your
(39:19):
favorite podcast app. If you enjoythe content covered on this show, I
want to ask you to do thisone thing for me. Please share it.
The biggest favor you could ever dofor me is to please let others
know about what I'm doing and howI'm helping educators grow their impact as instructional
leaders. I hope you can sharethis podcast with other educators, leaders,
(39:40):
friends, or anyone you think wouldlove listening and learning. If you're interested
in leaving a positive rating and reviewof this show, links to do so
or always in the show notes forevery episode. For more information about me
or this show, and to accessthe great content that I share, please
visit my website at Leader of Learningdot com. That's where you can find
(40:02):
my online courses, YouTube channel,blog, how to connect with me on
social media, and even ways thatyou can support the show like donating or
purchasing Leader of Learning merchandise. Thanksagain, and remember, no matter who
you are or where you are,you are a Leader of Learning.
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