October 11, 2024 • 39 mins
David Klein is the Director of Business Development for ConsulTV.
David began his advertising journey running his own business doing print advertising and Google Adwords. Comparatively, the shift to programmatic advertising will be to traditional media as pay per click advertising was to the Yellow Pages. He is glad to be in a position to partner with agencies and help them maximize this enormous opportunity.
ConsulTV's platform serves paid media advertising with a focus on streaming TV ads and OTT. Because of buying volume and 100's of private placement deals, we reduce our clients' CPMs and provide more robust targeting and reporting.
Connect with David on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidkleinsalesleader
Visit ConsulTV: https://www.consult.tv/
On This Episode, We Discuss…
David began his advertising journey running his own business doing print advertising and Google Adwords. Comparatively, the shift to programmatic advertising will be to traditional media as pay per click advertising was to the Yellow Pages. He is glad to be in a position to partner with agencies and help them maximize this enormous opportunity.
ConsulTV's platform serves paid media advertising with a focus on streaming TV ads and OTT. Because of buying volume and 100's of private placement deals, we reduce our clients' CPMs and provide more robust targeting and reporting.
Connect with David on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidkleinsalesleader
Visit ConsulTV: https://www.consult.tv/
On This Episode, We Discuss…
- The Seismic Shift from Traditional TV Ads to Streaming Platforms
- How Brands Can Adapt to the New Age of Digital Marketing
- Targeted Advertising in Streaming TV
- Optimizing Campaigns with Web Lift Pixels
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We all know the power of referrals, and there is
no better way to get referrals. And if you're showing
ads in zip codes where you have lots of clients,
and then they see your ad, they're already familiar, and
then their cousin gets into a car accident and now
all of a sudden, you just got a referral. Now,
by the way, will never show up out a report,
(00:21):
but we know it happened because you're also leveraging your
base of clients, people that are familiar with you, and
they're more likely to refer.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
You're listening to the Legal Mastermind podcast presented by Market
My Market with your hosts Eric Bersono, Ryan Klein, and
Chase Williams, the go to podcast for learning from the
experts in the legal community about effective ways to grow
and manage your law firm.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Legal Mastermind podcast.
Today I have with me David Klein. David Klin is
the business development director for consult TV.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
So you and I have gotten to know each other
for over the last six seven months or so, and
I know quite a bit about your background, But you
mind starting off by giving us a little bit of
that background and then we can roll into things.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Sure. Sure. So I've been in the advertising marketing world
for about twenty years. I started at the top. I
was the CEO of my little magazine. That's how I
got involved in advertising, and we were doing a health
and fitness magazine. It quickly evolved into an event company.
So I started doing websites and my first exposure to
advertising digital advertising purchasing it. So I bought Google AdWords
(01:42):
way back in the early o's. Didn't even know what
the heck guy was doing. So that's evolved into a
digital advertising career. For fifteen years, I've been regional director
for some large national media companies, and then three years
ago I joined Consult TV because I saw an enormous
opportunity in the streaming ad space. Just as the Yellow
(02:07):
Pages shifted to pay per click advertising back in the o's,
there are similarities, not the same, but similarities. As TV viewership,
it is shifting from traditional linear TV to streaming. So
three years ago I threw in with Consult TV and
here I am today.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting space, uh
you know, and you just referred to as it as streaming,
and then there's OTT, you know, so there's a lot
of different names. Can can you clear that up for
people just on nomenclature wise when we say OTT or streaming,
what we're referring to.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I love that question and I'm glad you asked it
because unfortunately, we as an industry have done a horrible
job of naming ourselves. Uh. And it's worth noting the
history of it. I'm a little bit of a history buff.
So OTT stands for over the top, and as OTT
began five or six short years ago, it was sold
(03:04):
by TV stations and it was considered over the top
digital streaming ads over the top of ninety nine percent
of the revenue, which was the traditional TV buying. So
that's where OTT has come from. Now, what it comes
to me today is that under the umbrella of OTT
is any place that a streaming ad can appear. So
(03:25):
it can be on a connected television, it can be
on online video that used to be called pre roll,
now it's referred to more as online video. It's the
same thing. And then there's also owned and operated inventory.
So for example, Xfinity and Comcast have their own websites
and streaming channels, so all of that is under the
umbrella of OTT. The two biggest I guess buckets or
(03:50):
categories are going to be connected TV, which means ads
that are shown on a smart TV, and then online video,
which are ads that are typically shown on a mobile
phone or desktop. And then the term that encompasses both
of those, I think is streaming TV. But that's the
there there's some overlap. So and to your point, it's
(04:13):
a great question because when some when people are doing
this type of advertising, I see this over and over.
We typically do comparisons and I always they always say,
well what does this cost? What's the CPM? And my
response is, well, what tactics are you using? And it's difficult,
and I'm not disparaging anyone, it's just it's just the reality.
We live in a complex world. So you have to
(04:35):
look at the invoicing and see, well, this is percentages
on connected TV, this percentage is on online video, and
then then you can actually do a side by side comparison.
But knowing the nomenclature is a good place to start.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, So, so besides the nomenclature, there are some big
differences between what people would consider a cable broadcast, and
then we'll just for the purposes of this podcast, we'll
call it streaming so that you know, so anybody who's
done TV before probably understands the term DMA or a
designated market area. But one of the really big benefits
(05:11):
as I see it, to streaming is that you don't
have to buy a DMA. So if you could kind
of talk about what options you have with streaming that
you don't have with your typical cable and broadcasts.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Sure, So there's a couple of things. So first, just
to deal with the geography, is that with streaming, particularly
connected TV and online video, it's all being served to
through your home's router, your Wi Fi router, that's what
your smart TV is connected to, and then we append
that IP address to a physical address. So in terms
(05:46):
of geographic targeting, that's one of the easiest things that
we do because every router has a physical address associated
with it, So we can target down to an individual
ZIP code, which we do. For restaurants. Very common to
just have one ZIP code and you're just promoting that
that restaurant in that zip code. Then we can go
(06:07):
to multiple zip codes. We can go to cities, counties, states,
and nationwide, so geographically we can be very very specific.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
The other point, not to interrupt, David, but I want
you to point out the difference for cable and broadcast,
because that's not for people who don't know. You don't
have that option with cable and.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Right, right, So yeah, let me start with broadcasts because
it's DMA like they serve to the DMA. So if
you're a single location restaurant in the Portland, Oregon area,
which is where I live, you could be in Gresham
and you could be serving an ad in Salem or
in Beaverton. That's an hour away. People are not driving
(06:47):
an hour to come to your restaurant, so that so
there's very little geographic targeting on broadcasts. Cable does have
some more geographic targeting capabilities, and that also is depending
on the cable provider and different packages and so forth,
and so there's more geographic specificity within the cable targeting,
(07:08):
but it's not the same as down to the detailed
individual zip codes that you could potentially do in the
streaming world.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Right, So, as you're doing the geographic targeting, which you know,
you know for a law firm could be based on
where your perfect avatar for a client is. So, for example,
if you're doing personal injury and you know that your
best cases come from you know these four or five
(07:37):
towns outside of the main dishrit you can do your
specific advertising there and then you know, not advertised to
say the super affluent area where everybody in their neighborhood
is an attorney, or as neighbors with five attorneys, you know,
where they're a much higher percentage of people are getting
referrals to their law firms.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That one hundred percent. You stole a little bit of
my thunder, Eric, But again, no, that's great because we
haven't talked in the last seven months. I would throw
on top of what you just said. We all know
the power of referrals, and there is no better way
to get referrals. And if you're showing ads in zip
codes where you have lots of clients, and then they
see your ad, they're already familiar, and then their cousin
(08:19):
gets into a car accident and now all of a sudden,
you just got a referral. Now that, by the way,
it will never show up out a report, but we
know it happens because you're also leveraging your base of clients,
people that are familiar with you, and they're more likely
to refer.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So the other big factor, and I do want to
talk about some of the other targeting things in a second,
but the other big factor for streaming is just.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
How ubiquitous it is now.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I mean, I don't I know some of the numbers,
not as well as you, but you know, maybe five
six years ago we're not having the same conversation. But
the number of people who are streaming as opposed to
on broadcasts and cable is growing. And I think it's
growing by leafs and balance.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It really is. It's something that started at the beginning
of COVID. There was an enormous spike in streaming viewership
as people were locked down, and it hasn't continued to spike,
but it's continued to grow. And the other thing that's
a little bit behind the scenes, a little bit of
inside information. It's not so inside because you can book
this up online. But the broadcast and the cable companies
(09:27):
they don't want to have the old analog systems either.
They're inefficient, they're expensive. That's why you can stream your
local news, you can stream Exfinity and all of the
comcasts they all have streaming services and capability. So just
from a technological standpoint, there's motivation for all parties concerned
(09:49):
that serve content to move into the streaming world. And
then you add in the people don't like the bundle
packages with cable and service and we're used to is
can consumers now being able to watch what we want.
I just ran across the stet that Bridgerton is like
blowing up on Netflix. It's a fantastically popular show. I
(10:10):
don't even know what it's about, but I love lots
of other shows. So that's some of the reasons for
the explosion and streaming consumption, streaming content consumption.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, and you just mentioned Netflix, which I can't remember
if it's a year old now or not, but you know,
everybody knows Netflix is a fad subscription, but they actually
have a lower tier now that you can serve ads
on and that's something that's fairly new. And as we
were talking before we started here, you're starting to get
(10:44):
some high interest in people who want to do advertising
specifically on Netflix.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and it's a great just just segue into just
the overall change and audiences and the potential for advertisers
because just a couple of really rough numbers, is that
right now, about fifty four percent of households nationwide do
not have a cable or broadcast of satellite subscriptions, so
(11:09):
they have no access to what would be referred to
as traditional TV. They're only streaming, right Depending on who
will status you look at, ninety two to ninety nine
percent of homes do have a smart TV and are
streaming services, so essentially everybody is streaming. About half the
people are not accessing any content through traditional means. So
(11:30):
the audience itself is really really shifting. So what does
that mean, Well, that means that the supply side, the
publishers that Amazon, Netflix, HBO, they've made dramatic changes to
the amount of ads that they're now serving. So to
your point, Netflix is growing their ad based subscribers by
leaps and bounds. On average, homes have about seven streaming services.
(11:53):
Many homes thirty percent of Americans home have ten streaming services.
So when you think, well, what's the difference between an
eight dollar subscription and a twelve dollars subscription, Well, if
you've got ten services all of a sudden, that's fifty
sixty dollars a month, and that will cause people say,
you know what, I'll just do the ads. I think
one of the most telling pieces of information is that
(12:15):
Amazon Prime recently started showing ads. Now, Amazon cutting Edge
always does things their own way. They didn't have a
lower tier. You're exactly right. That's what Netflix said is
it's nineteen dollars for the ad free and twelve dollars
with ads. Amazon Prime won a different route and they said,
your price isn't going to go up. We're going to
(12:37):
start showing you three ads per hour. If you don't
want to see those ads, you can pay a little
bit more, but if you do nothing, you're going to
start getting three ads per hour. There's one hundred and
fifty million Amazon Prime subscribers in the United States, so
now you have three ads per hour times one hundred
and fifty million potential Amazon Primes. So it's just it
(13:03):
really Even in the last six months, the amount of
ad inventory has exploded.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, and one of the other things, you know, we
talked about the geographic targeting, which is kind of table
stakes with with marketing.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
But the really cool thing.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I think with streaming is you're targeting the person not
what they're watching. So I'll tee you up and then
have you give the detail and meaning. Like let's just
for example, take you know Judge Judy. This popped in
my head. So you know approximately the type of person
that watches Judge Judy. You know what age they are,
what sex they are, you know a couple of other
(13:42):
key demographic you're kind of guessing. You just kind of
know what their audience is. But with streaming, you're not
targeting a show. You're targeting the person who's watching that show.
That's actually where the ad goes to. Absolutely. Amen, brother,
and I've been doing this for three years. I've talked
to experienced marketers and there. Just to put it in
(14:05):
perspective again, to look at the history of it is
at the Nielsen ratings that's been the.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Metric that's used for a viewership, and then also who
is viewing it. In the city of Denver, we do
quite a bit of work in Colorado. We know that
there's one hundred and fifty Nielson households that are using
the Nielsen Book to determine viewership and demographics for the viewership,
which gives us some information, but it's not detailed. The
(14:33):
way that the streaming TV ecosystem works and with data
and targeting is that there's an entire ecosystem behind what
you see of Lodome, TransUnion data providers that are plugged
into the system. So this is how again, we have
(14:54):
this IP address and for example, if you have a
banking relationship, well, you're bank is anonymizing, packaging and selling
your data a revenue stream for them. So I know
it might be shocking to some people. I think most
marketers quite understand that quite a bit. But the point
is is enabled by targeting folks for example, that have
(15:14):
high income or local income, good credit, bad credit, et cetera.
We can do all of that because we're taking those ads,
We're putting them on our server. That's what we are.
We're referred to as a demand side platform. So we're
the pipes. We're the ones that are pushing the ads
into the system to the appropriate people. And who are
the appropriate people, Well, it depends on what data bits
(15:37):
that you ask us to serve to and so based
on the IP address and the data attached to that
IP address, we can be very targeted and not to
board that your listeners, but we have literally sixty thousand
data bits that we can pull from. So that's part
of my job as a consultant and working with advertisers
(15:57):
and agencies and a few direct clients just being able
to sit with them and saying, what is the best
audience in the best use of this data so you
get the best outcome.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Could you give a couple of examples, because you know,
sixty thousand data bits, you know, that's we don't have
to do one of each, but it is, you know,
So if you could give maybe a recent example of
something that you thought was creative as how to target
because we're not again just targeting a geography.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Or a person who likes a specific show.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
We're targeting characteristics or places they've been on the internet,
or their finances. You know, people that we know make
above one hundred and fifty thousand or below. But yeah,
if you could maybe provide a couple of examples just
so people get their wheels turning on that. Oh, well,
I see what you're talking about now.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So here's three I'm going to hit you with. And
we have had some creative stuff going on lately, So
the first one is not so creative, but it's great.
We do we work a ton with personal injury attorneys.
That's why I'm I'm on this call. But summertime motorcycle
accidents are a big focus of a lot of law firms.
So because of the motor vehicle data that we have,
(17:04):
we can serve ads to households that have a motorcycle
registered to that household. That's one example. Another one is
we're working with a bankruptcy attorney that advertises again consumer bankruptcy.
So what we're doing is we're approaching people that have
poor credit scores and the other data bit that we have.
I actually just found this out last week because I
(17:24):
don't have all sixty thousand data bitch memorized, but people
that have high credit card balances, and we can even
drill down to what tie over twenty thousand, over fifty thousand,
et cetera. So we're showing those ads to people that
poor credit and high credit card balance is clearly a
good audience for a bankruptcy attorney. And then the final one,
(17:46):
and this is getting into we decent work in the
mass toward space as well. And one of our data
providers is a specialty medical data provider, and what they've
done is they've grabbed all of the medical diagnosises, surgeries
and test package. This anonymized at a tip A compliant.
But for example, if you're in the mass tortue space
(18:08):
and you're working with in the miso and lung cancer
asbestos mass tortue, then we are able to target ads
towards people that there's been a lung cancer diagnosis in
the household. Between medical data, motorcycle data, income data, those
are all very distinct and by the way, all three
of those are examples where those data bits are coming
(18:29):
from different data providers that we're able to plug into
the system and then serve your ADS to those folks.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong here, But I
find that you do want to get your targeting correct,
but you don't want to over target. And what I
mean by that is, you know, meso thelioma.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Cases art would be.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
You know, for an attorney that does mesothema are very
tough to come by. There's maybe three thousand to thirty
five hundred diagnosed a year. So if you say, hey,
I want to target everybody in the last month they
got target that was diagnosed with this, you know you're
still talking about a very small population and TV is
(19:11):
a broad you know, shotgun approach. You're not talking and
you've made this example before, but if someone types in
mesothelial mesothelioma lawyer to Google, that is a one on
one relationship with Google.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
They serve an ad because you're buying that term. That's
person in what.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
We would call a buying mode. But you can't just
advertise your mesothelioma commercial to two people you know in
a month. So you could probably add some more a
detail to that, but I tell people, don't smart yourself
by trying to over target. You still need to have
somewhat of a broad array, so you're hitting people multiple times.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Absolutely, Eric, And it's a great point because this is
you know, I get asked a lot, is this a
digital product or is this TV? And the answer is
it's both. It's but it's still outward bound marketing. You're
still sharing a message with someone that may or may
not be interested in what you're doing right now. So
(20:11):
the MISO is a little bit more specific. But let
me talk about like auto accent, because I imagine a
lot of your listeners are in the auto accent business.
They're looking for auto accent clients and We know very
well that most people have not been in an auto accident,
but we have a data bit that says been in
an auto accent recent So to your point, we're not
(20:32):
only showing ads to people that have recently been in
an auto accent. We're showing ads to one hundred two
hundred million impressions a month, depending on the size of
your campaign. And what's really important and what we see
really hard data and good data over the lift that
people see both in leads and cases signed. That's why
you do all these things is because when somebody watches TV,
(20:56):
they have their phone on their lap and maybe they
haven't been in an accident. Six months later, they're in
an accident and they google. Hopefully they google the name
of your firm' that's the holy brail. But if they don't,
they google a car accident lawyer near me, and they've
seen your ad five to ten times a month over
the last six months, they're much more likely to click
(21:17):
your organically or your paid PPC. So what we're saying again,
this is about the consumer. This is how consumers are
interacting with businesses. Now, is that clearly this marketing works,
it's targeted, it's brand marketing, it's consideration marketing. But then
at the time that they're ready to pick up the phone,
(21:39):
we want them to choose you because of the streaming
TV that you have been doing previously.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, and I think if you're a law firm that
is thinking about advertising, you have to understand this is
a completely different product in every way than Google, PPC
or even organic. Again, if someone got into a car
accident and they type in car accident lawyer near me,
if your AD or you're organic listing is in the
(22:06):
top half of Google, you might have an opportunity to
talk to this person and pull them in. That's person
actively looking. So that's very measurable. You can see the
person came in. You can tell they came from your
Google My Business profile, or they came from your PPC AD.
It's very measurable to say I got this client from this.
Attorneys love that this is not that, but there are
(22:30):
lots of other benefits to this that are unseen. And
what I mean by that is because as you let's
just take one hundred thousand, If you're reaching one hundred
thousand people a month with your advertising, and we know
because of your tools that we're not talking about these
are I think even more accurate that you're delivering these
one hundred thousand views than even cable er broadcast just
(22:54):
because of the technology that you have. So think about
of that one hundred thousand, how many actually need a
car accident lawyer that month? Probably very few, But every
single one of them is seeing your law firm name.
They're getting your messaging. As you mentioned before, it's the
person who you helped two years ago. Oh god, that
reminds me about that law firm. They did such a
(23:14):
good job for me. So they can have a good
effect for a referral down the line, and that's something
that builds over time. So I would say this is
a great tool for you to market yourself, brand yourself. Yes,
bring in phone calls, because someone who was recently in
an accident could see that go oh my god, I
need that attorney right now. But you have to be
(23:36):
able to understand the benefits of that streaming as opposed
to just regular GPC.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
That's completely on the other side of the spectrum.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Sure, And I would would add to that, Eric, And actually,
I was just at a legal conference two weeks ago,
and I had a lot of clients that were in
the room, and so they've been crunching some numbers and
looking at data over the last six months, and so
there is very tangible results just looking at this. This
(24:06):
is what our average lead volume in case volume was
per month pre streaming. They didn't make any other changes
other than moving budget from linear TV to streaming. So yes,
I'm going to take credit for that one because there
are no other changes made. So by deductive reasoning, we
typically see after ninety to one hundred and twenty days
(24:28):
fifteen to thirty percent lift in both leads and cases.
And the other thing that is that we see over
and over is that their conversion percentages tend to go
up in their PPC, their intake. People are getting more
qualified leads because again there is some credibility. I don't
and I don't want to over sell this because if
somebody says, did you see my ad on Bridger Chen
(24:50):
on Netflix, Nobody's going to remember that. But over the
course of one hundred and twenty days and hundreds of
thousands of impressions and then just that scale of having
and the other thing with streaming that's really very, very
powerful is that we have a lot of control over
reach and frequency, and I'm getting really kind of into
(25:12):
the weeds, But we don't want to kill people with
so many different so many ads over and over and
over that it's wasteful. It might even be a little
detrimental if you're just hitting them with too many ads.
They get kind of tired of seeing your smiling face
in your market. But we think five to ten ads
per month for viewer is a really good sweet spot.
(25:32):
So again that's where we just see that lift over
the ninety one and twenty days. And we have folks
that have been with us three and four years and
just continue as the audience moves from linear TV to streaming,
they tend they're just moving their budgets from the linear
side to the streaming side.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
And you do, you do have another very technically interesting
way to track with a pixel that somebody can put
on their website.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Can you explain how that works?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Sure, because we know exactly the IP addresses that we've
served the ads, and then when anybody visits a website,
then your website will measure well, what IP address are
they coming from? So what we can do is called
a weblift pixel. So we placed the Weblift pixel on
the client's website and it measures the IP addresses that
(26:24):
have come into the website, and then we look in
our system and said, do we have a match of
an IP address that we've served an AD. So at
the end of the month, we're able to show this
is how many people or how many visitors. We don't
know exact because it could be duplicate visitors, but this
is how many people have seen your AD that we
have served that consult TV has served across our network
(26:46):
of publishers and has also visited the client's website.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, and that's I think really cool because I don't
think that was possible even a couple of years ago,
or it wasn't something that was offered. And you know,
cabling broadcast again, I keep referring back to that because
you know, anybody who did TV that was ubiquitous on
TV ten years ago, you know, they were kind of
just throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall and
(27:10):
if they had enough budget and tested enough things, then
they might be able to be successful. But now you
can be more creative, you can be more targeted, you
can be smarter about where you're going to spend those dollars.
And even tell now when that person saw your commercial
and also visited your website, which I think is really cool.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
It is it definitely, you know, those are steps on
the path of success. I mean I look at it
as having worked in legal marketing for twenty years all
whether it's PPC, streaming, billboards, whatever the tactic is. Ultimately
we're measured against helping the firm grow and providing a
good POPP acquisition and bringing in new clients. And this
(27:54):
is really fun because we can show that over a
relatively short time. I needed to in twenty days, and
it's just the logic is pretty simple. Your eyeballs are
now and streaming, and you've worked hard. You've worked your
butt off to build your brand. Some of the law
firms we work with have been in their markets for
twenty or thirty years, so they have brand recognition. But
(28:17):
the same way that Budweiser advertises every Super Bowl. Nobody
watches the Super Bowl and is not familiar with Budweiser.
But why do they do it? Because they want to
keep that brand top of mind. And sometimes they're going
to buy Budweiser. Sometimes they're going to buy an IPA.
But whatever the case is, so that that's still those
principles still hold true.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah, And I think the other thing this does is
it opens up streaming TV advertising to a group of
law firms that probably thought it was out of their
reach to be on TV before. And what I mean
by that is if you're in the LA market, and
you know, if you were buying cablein.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Broadcast, you had to buy that entire ten million.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Person audience, which is un believably expensive. So most law
firms were just priced out. Well, now if you're in
Torrance or if you're in Culver City, you can probably
find a budget where you're marketing, like you said, as
a restaurant, you're marketing to people a half mile from
you or a mile from you, and your pricing is
being reflective of that. So instead of trying to get
(29:20):
your one hundred thousand plus uh, you know views a
month in an enormous DMA, you pick out your backyard
and you could be the eight hundred pound gorilla in
your backyard.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
With those ads.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
One hundred percent. That's a great point, Eric, and it's
also you know what and what we've seen. As a
matter of fact, I have some meetings this week of
folks that have been on TV previously, so they have
creative that they've used, and they were saying their response
from TV go down, which again is not only streaming's fault,
but just we're all fragmented. We all have so many
(29:56):
entertainment choices now that to just you know, what was
so effected give even five years ago on linear TV
is less so now. So the point is now we're
seeing people that have said, you know, we saw success
pre COVID on TV and then that diminished over time,
and now they're bringing that that creative all out and
then sprucing it up and to your point, having a
(30:18):
much more target approach.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Yeah, and I just don't think it can be understated.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
How you know, if somebody said, well, my, you know,
how do I maybe the person I'm targeting doesn't have Netflix,
so they don't have Amazon, or they don't have Hulu,
You're able to put a digital ad in front of
them no matter what they have, as long as they
have some type of streaming, that person can see one
of these ads. And you you alluded to creative. What
(30:46):
if someone's thinking about doing this and it sounds exciting
to them and they want to do something on TV
what do you have suggestions for them and creative or
how would you approach that?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Sure, so let me answer it too ways. So the
first way is folks that already have creative in the
camp that they've done TV, they're doing it now or
they've done it before. So what I always it's much
easier to work backwards from the existing creative And for example,
if you have a motorcycle AD, let's run that against
motorcycle households. If you have a Spanish speaker AD, let's
(31:18):
run that against Spanish speaking households, et cetera, et cetera.
And then if you have an AD that's location specific,
you're standing in front of the courthouse in a small
town near your office, that's also again, so we can
work backwards from there. So I would say, with your
existing creative, how can we get more specific in the targeting?
(31:38):
A huge opportunity to to build brand to get leads
coming in. So that's the first answer. On the folks
that maybe have not done TV in to your point, say, okay,
you know I can't be in the entire La DMA,
but I can get in there and try to hit
a five mile radius around my office or I've got
a list of two thousand people helped over the last
(32:00):
ten years. Whatever the case is, I want to hit
those zip codes. Then I would say we are not
a creative agency, but we work very closely with creative agency.
So I would just have them reach out to you,
Eric and we can just have a conversation. I know
you have a lot of expertise in that area, but
I would really think about what is your unique selling proposition?
Just the basics. Remember this this is where it's still
(32:23):
a TV AD, So you want to have a unique
selling proposition. You want to have your URL on the
ad throughout QR codes They're not esthetically pleasing, but they're valuable,
they're worth having, or a QR code, have your phone
number prominent throughout the entire ad, and ultimately I would
(32:43):
just leave with The final thought is is don't try
to be all things to all people. Like ye I
know this is going to be a little Tony Robbins
moment here, but you know, be your true self. If
you're really aggressive, I'm going to kick the insurance companies,
but knock yourself out. Go for it and own it.
But if that's not who you are, then then you
(33:05):
know again, just kind of go with your authentic self
and it helps because you don't want to just copy
what everybody else is doing. You want to portray and
convey where your firm has come from.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I've told people
this to my whole career. Is you know, there's never
a silver bullet. There's never one message that's going to
resonate with every single person. So it's best to stick
to what you do and what you really believe in.
So if you're the lawyer in blue jeans, be the
lawyer in blue jeans.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
If you like to be.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Suited up always wearing a tie, that's how you should
do your commercials. And the other thing that TV streaming
does is it actually gives you a little bit higher
cachet and there's a little bit more of a celebrity.
Anybody who's on TV all of a sudden gets elevated
in the person who's watching TV's eyes. And I know
(33:54):
this to be true because last year we ran a
bunch of focus groups to talk about how people would
search online who would they would choose, But inevitably someone
would say, oh, I've seen that person's ads on TV
and you could just tell the way they spoke about
it that it elevated them in their mind. I would
call that for I've seen them on TV quite a
(34:15):
bit so, and I've heard attorneys say before like, oh,
I'm getting recognized from my commercials now and people come
in that I feel like I already know you because
I've seen your ad. So one of the other ancillary
benefits of running TV is you start to get some
presence of mind amongst your community.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
It's the conference that I was just alluding to. There
were two gentlemen that were very regular TV advertisers, have
been for decades, and they were both saying amongst themselves, like,
is it tiresome to be out in public because people
recognize you because you've been on TV for so long?
And both of them basically conferred and said no, because
(34:57):
you never know if this is a potential client, know
if this is somebody that we could have helped before.
So while it's not awesome to have your meal interrupted
by a stranger, it is it just it does show
that to your point, there's cachet and people feel like
they know you because they've seen your messaging on TV.
And sure enough, these are two folks that have built
(35:20):
very successful practices and have been consistent over the decades,
so that they feel it anecdotally in the real world.
But I also say, look, when you look at these numbers,
you know, minutes, you know, smaller budgets still reach tens
of thousands of people. So it doesn't matter the one hundred,
two hundred, five hundred people that you know, there's thousands
and thousands of people that are moving into your area.
(35:42):
Don't know. Again, marketing one on one, but it's it's
a powerful medium. But then you do feel it when
you're sitting at the local restaurant and someone says, I
saw your ad. Can I get a picture with you?
Which it does happen to these gentlemen quite often.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, well, I think I think what you do is
a great service to the to the you know, and
I know you work outside of legal as well, but
I do think if anybody is thinking about doing it,
a conversation with you would be very beneficial. Just we
only kind of got to the tip of the iceberg
about what you know about this stuff, But did we
miss anything that you think, you know, the audience should
(36:19):
hear on streaming itself.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
That you'd like to leave. As kind of a final thought.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, thanks for asking. I would say this is that
despite all of the news, I think streaming TV I
run across the constantly because I'm in and up up
to my eyeballs. But right now, it's still about ninety
percent of the TV budget is still on linear and
broadcast TV. So there's a huge opportunity for existing TV
(36:48):
advertisers to capture and unlock audiences that are not being accessed,
just the pure numbers of it. So if you are
a TV advertiser, get with your agency, get with an
expert like yourself, Eric, reach out to me because there's
huge opportunities. You already have the creative and ultimately, whether
(37:11):
you do it through me or you do it through
your existing agency, whatever the case is, you're going to
reach eyeballs you're not currently reaching and that's going to
help your business growth.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah, and sorry, I'll cap that off, and again I'll
have you correct me if I'm wrong. But obviously that
cable and broadcast, as more people start going over to streaming,
I think that audience that's still only doing cable broadcast
is getting.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Older and older.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
So if you're if you're selling something that hits that
audience great, But millennials are now in their forties and
those are prime targets for just about any practice area.
So as you just mentioned, by just by switching to streaming,
you're going to get eyeballs that you never had access
to before.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's it's and and you again, we're getting deeper in
the weeds. But the numbers are really they're they're stunning.
For millennials and younger, they just they just don't watch
that they have they've never had a cable subscription. So
and they're the ones that are commuting, they're in their cars,
et cetera. And like you said, millennials are forty now,
so it's a time waits for no one. And again,
(38:19):
just that audience alone, they're shifting. You can't if if
you're sailing your your your sailboat, you can't get mad
at the wind. You got to adjust your sales. And
in the TV advertising world right now, your audience is
leaving traditional the traditional space.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
So how can someone get a hold of you? You
got a book that you're selling, are any movies coming up?
What's the best way for someone to get ahold of you?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Or sure, I'm easy to find I'm on LinkedIn. So
my name is David Klein k L E I N
like Calvin spells his name. No no relation there but
google David Cline Consult TV. I'll pop up on LinkedIn.
We've got a website, certainly through you. We we've got
a great relationship. I appreciate the work we've done together,
(39:10):
Eric and having me on this podcast. My email address
is Decline at consult dot tv and phone number seven
zero four five six four eight seven four five.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
David, thanks for your time and sharing all your knowledge
with the audience today.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Take care, Eric, you have a great day.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Thanks for listening to the Legal Mastermind podcast presented by
Market my market if you can check out additional episodes
and recaps at Legalmastermind podcast dot com.
We all know the power of referrals, and there is
no better way to get referrals. And if you're showing
ads in zip codes where you have lots of clients,
and then they see your ad, they're already familiar, and
then their cousin gets into a car accident and now
all of a sudden, you just got a referral. Now,
by the way, will never show up out a report,
(00:21):
but we know it happened because you're also leveraging your
base of clients, people that are familiar with you, and
they're more likely to refer.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
You're listening to the Legal Mastermind podcast presented by Market
My Market with your hosts Eric Bersono, Ryan Klein, and
Chase Williams, the go to podcast for learning from the
experts in the legal community about effective ways to grow
and manage your law firm.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Legal Mastermind podcast.
Today I have with me David Klein. David Klin is
the business development director for consult TV.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
So you and I have gotten to know each other
for over the last six seven months or so, and
I know quite a bit about your background, But you
mind starting off by giving us a little bit of
that background and then we can roll into things.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Sure. Sure. So I've been in the advertising marketing world
for about twenty years. I started at the top. I
was the CEO of my little magazine. That's how I
got involved in advertising, and we were doing a health
and fitness magazine. It quickly evolved into an event company.
So I started doing websites and my first exposure to
advertising digital advertising purchasing it. So I bought Google AdWords
(01:42):
way back in the early o's. Didn't even know what
the heck guy was doing. So that's evolved into a
digital advertising career. For fifteen years, I've been regional director
for some large national media companies, and then three years
ago I joined Consult TV because I saw an enormous
opportunity in the streaming ad space. Just as the Yellow
(02:07):
Pages shifted to pay per click advertising back in the o's,
there are similarities, not the same, but similarities. As TV viewership,
it is shifting from traditional linear TV to streaming. So
three years ago I threw in with Consult TV and
here I am today.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting space, uh
you know, and you just referred to as it as streaming,
and then there's OTT, you know, so there's a lot
of different names. Can can you clear that up for
people just on nomenclature wise when we say OTT or streaming,
what we're referring to.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I love that question and I'm glad you asked it
because unfortunately, we as an industry have done a horrible
job of naming ourselves. Uh. And it's worth noting the
history of it. I'm a little bit of a history buff.
So OTT stands for over the top, and as OTT
began five or six short years ago, it was sold
(03:04):
by TV stations and it was considered over the top
digital streaming ads over the top of ninety nine percent
of the revenue, which was the traditional TV buying. So
that's where OTT has come from. Now, what it comes
to me today is that under the umbrella of OTT
is any place that a streaming ad can appear. So
(03:25):
it can be on a connected television, it can be
on online video that used to be called pre roll,
now it's referred to more as online video. It's the
same thing. And then there's also owned and operated inventory.
So for example, Xfinity and Comcast have their own websites
and streaming channels, so all of that is under the
umbrella of OTT. The two biggest I guess buckets or
(03:50):
categories are going to be connected TV, which means ads
that are shown on a smart TV, and then online video,
which are ads that are typically shown on a mobile
phone or desktop. And then the term that encompasses both
of those, I think is streaming TV. But that's the
there there's some overlap. So and to your point, it's
(04:13):
a great question because when some when people are doing
this type of advertising, I see this over and over.
We typically do comparisons and I always they always say,
well what does this cost? What's the CPM? And my
response is, well, what tactics are you using? And it's difficult,
and I'm not disparaging anyone, it's just it's just the reality.
We live in a complex world. So you have to
(04:35):
look at the invoicing and see, well, this is percentages
on connected TV, this percentage is on online video, and
then then you can actually do a side by side comparison.
But knowing the nomenclature is a good place to start.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, So, so besides the nomenclature, there are some big
differences between what people would consider a cable broadcast, and
then we'll just for the purposes of this podcast, we'll
call it streaming so that you know, so anybody who's
done TV before probably understands the term DMA or a
designated market area. But one of the really big benefits
(05:11):
as I see it, to streaming is that you don't
have to buy a DMA. So if you could kind
of talk about what options you have with streaming that
you don't have with your typical cable and broadcasts.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Sure, So there's a couple of things. So first, just
to deal with the geography, is that with streaming, particularly
connected TV and online video, it's all being served to
through your home's router, your Wi Fi router, that's what
your smart TV is connected to, and then we append
that IP address to a physical address. So in terms
(05:46):
of geographic targeting, that's one of the easiest things that
we do because every router has a physical address associated
with it, So we can target down to an individual
ZIP code, which we do. For restaurants. Very common to
just have one ZIP code and you're just promoting that
that restaurant in that zip code. Then we can go
(06:07):
to multiple zip codes. We can go to cities, counties, states,
and nationwide, so geographically we can be very very specific.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
The other point, not to interrupt, David, but I want
you to point out the difference for cable and broadcast,
because that's not for people who don't know. You don't
have that option with cable and.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Right, right, So yeah, let me start with broadcasts because
it's DMA like they serve to the DMA. So if
you're a single location restaurant in the Portland, Oregon area,
which is where I live, you could be in Gresham
and you could be serving an ad in Salem or
in Beaverton. That's an hour away. People are not driving
(06:47):
an hour to come to your restaurant, so that so
there's very little geographic targeting on broadcasts. Cable does have
some more geographic targeting capabilities, and that also is depending
on the cable provider and different packages and so forth,
and so there's more geographic specificity within the cable targeting,
(07:08):
but it's not the same as down to the detailed
individual zip codes that you could potentially do in the
streaming world.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Right, So, as you're doing the geographic targeting, which you know,
you know for a law firm could be based on
where your perfect avatar for a client is. So, for example,
if you're doing personal injury and you know that your
best cases come from you know these four or five
(07:37):
towns outside of the main dishrit you can do your
specific advertising there and then you know, not advertised to
say the super affluent area where everybody in their neighborhood
is an attorney, or as neighbors with five attorneys, you know,
where they're a much higher percentage of people are getting
referrals to their law firms.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That one hundred percent. You stole a little bit of
my thunder, Eric, But again, no, that's great because we
haven't talked in the last seven months. I would throw
on top of what you just said. We all know
the power of referrals, and there is no better way
to get referrals. And if you're showing ads in zip
codes where you have lots of clients, and then they
see your ad, they're already familiar, and then their cousin
(08:19):
gets into a car accident and now all of a sudden,
you just got a referral. Now that, by the way,
it will never show up out a report, but we
know it happens because you're also leveraging your base of clients,
people that are familiar with you, and they're more likely
to refer.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So the other big factor, and I do want to
talk about some of the other targeting things in a second,
but the other big factor for streaming is just.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
How ubiquitous it is now.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I mean, I don't I know some of the numbers,
not as well as you, but you know, maybe five
six years ago we're not having the same conversation. But
the number of people who are streaming as opposed to
on broadcasts and cable is growing. And I think it's
growing by leafs and balance.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It really is. It's something that started at the beginning
of COVID. There was an enormous spike in streaming viewership
as people were locked down, and it hasn't continued to spike,
but it's continued to grow. And the other thing that's
a little bit behind the scenes, a little bit of
inside information. It's not so inside because you can book
this up online. But the broadcast and the cable companies
(09:27):
they don't want to have the old analog systems either.
They're inefficient, they're expensive. That's why you can stream your
local news, you can stream Exfinity and all of the
comcasts they all have streaming services and capability. So just
from a technological standpoint, there's motivation for all parties concerned
(09:49):
that serve content to move into the streaming world. And
then you add in the people don't like the bundle
packages with cable and service and we're used to is
can consumers now being able to watch what we want.
I just ran across the stet that Bridgerton is like
blowing up on Netflix. It's a fantastically popular show. I
(10:10):
don't even know what it's about, but I love lots
of other shows. So that's some of the reasons for
the explosion and streaming consumption, streaming content consumption.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, and you just mentioned Netflix, which I can't remember
if it's a year old now or not, but you know,
everybody knows Netflix is a fad subscription, but they actually
have a lower tier now that you can serve ads
on and that's something that's fairly new. And as we
were talking before we started here, you're starting to get
(10:44):
some high interest in people who want to do advertising
specifically on Netflix.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and it's a great just just segue into just
the overall change and audiences and the potential for advertisers
because just a couple of really rough numbers, is that
right now, about fifty four percent of households nationwide do
not have a cable or broadcast of satellite subscriptions, so
(11:09):
they have no access to what would be referred to
as traditional TV. They're only streaming, right Depending on who
will status you look at, ninety two to ninety nine
percent of homes do have a smart TV and are
streaming services, so essentially everybody is streaming. About half the
people are not accessing any content through traditional means. So
(11:30):
the audience itself is really really shifting. So what does
that mean, Well, that means that the supply side, the
publishers that Amazon, Netflix, HBO, they've made dramatic changes to
the amount of ads that they're now serving. So to
your point, Netflix is growing their ad based subscribers by
leaps and bounds. On average, homes have about seven streaming services.
(11:53):
Many homes thirty percent of Americans home have ten streaming services.
So when you think, well, what's the difference between an
eight dollar subscription and a twelve dollars subscription, Well, if
you've got ten services all of a sudden, that's fifty
sixty dollars a month, and that will cause people say,
you know what, I'll just do the ads. I think
one of the most telling pieces of information is that
(12:15):
Amazon Prime recently started showing ads. Now, Amazon cutting Edge
always does things their own way. They didn't have a
lower tier. You're exactly right. That's what Netflix said is
it's nineteen dollars for the ad free and twelve dollars
with ads. Amazon Prime won a different route and they said,
your price isn't going to go up. We're going to
(12:37):
start showing you three ads per hour. If you don't
want to see those ads, you can pay a little
bit more, but if you do nothing, you're going to
start getting three ads per hour. There's one hundred and
fifty million Amazon Prime subscribers in the United States, so
now you have three ads per hour times one hundred
and fifty million potential Amazon Primes. So it's just it
(13:03):
really Even in the last six months, the amount of
ad inventory has exploded.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, and one of the other things, you know, we
talked about the geographic targeting, which is kind of table
stakes with with marketing.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
But the really cool thing.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I think with streaming is you're targeting the person not
what they're watching. So I'll tee you up and then
have you give the detail and meaning. Like let's just
for example, take you know Judge Judy. This popped in
my head. So you know approximately the type of person
that watches Judge Judy. You know what age they are,
what sex they are, you know a couple of other
(13:42):
key demographic you're kind of guessing. You just kind of
know what their audience is. But with streaming, you're not
targeting a show. You're targeting the person who's watching that show.
That's actually where the ad goes to. Absolutely. Amen, brother,
and I've been doing this for three years. I've talked
to experienced marketers and there. Just to put it in
(14:05):
perspective again, to look at the history of it is
at the Nielsen ratings that's been the.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Metric that's used for a viewership, and then also who
is viewing it. In the city of Denver, we do
quite a bit of work in Colorado. We know that
there's one hundred and fifty Nielson households that are using
the Nielsen Book to determine viewership and demographics for the viewership,
which gives us some information, but it's not detailed. The
(14:33):
way that the streaming TV ecosystem works and with data
and targeting is that there's an entire ecosystem behind what
you see of Lodome, TransUnion data providers that are plugged
into the system. So this is how again, we have
(14:54):
this IP address and for example, if you have a
banking relationship, well, you're bank is anonymizing, packaging and selling
your data a revenue stream for them. So I know
it might be shocking to some people. I think most
marketers quite understand that quite a bit. But the point
is is enabled by targeting folks for example, that have
(15:14):
high income or local income, good credit, bad credit, et cetera.
We can do all of that because we're taking those ads,
We're putting them on our server. That's what we are.
We're referred to as a demand side platform. So we're
the pipes. We're the ones that are pushing the ads
into the system to the appropriate people. And who are
the appropriate people, Well, it depends on what data bits
(15:37):
that you ask us to serve to and so based
on the IP address and the data attached to that
IP address, we can be very targeted and not to
board that your listeners, but we have literally sixty thousand
data bits that we can pull from. So that's part
of my job as a consultant and working with advertisers
(15:57):
and agencies and a few direct clients just being able
to sit with them and saying, what is the best
audience in the best use of this data so you
get the best outcome.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Could you give a couple of examples, because you know,
sixty thousand data bits, you know, that's we don't have
to do one of each, but it is, you know,
So if you could give maybe a recent example of
something that you thought was creative as how to target
because we're not again just targeting a geography.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Or a person who likes a specific show.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
We're targeting characteristics or places they've been on the internet,
or their finances. You know, people that we know make
above one hundred and fifty thousand or below. But yeah,
if you could maybe provide a couple of examples just
so people get their wheels turning on that. Oh, well,
I see what you're talking about now.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So here's three I'm going to hit you with. And
we have had some creative stuff going on lately, So
the first one is not so creative, but it's great.
We do we work a ton with personal injury attorneys.
That's why I'm I'm on this call. But summertime motorcycle
accidents are a big focus of a lot of law firms.
So because of the motor vehicle data that we have,
(17:04):
we can serve ads to households that have a motorcycle
registered to that household. That's one example. Another one is
we're working with a bankruptcy attorney that advertises again consumer bankruptcy.
So what we're doing is we're approaching people that have
poor credit scores and the other data bit that we have.
I actually just found this out last week because I
(17:24):
don't have all sixty thousand data bitch memorized, but people
that have high credit card balances, and we can even
drill down to what tie over twenty thousand, over fifty thousand,
et cetera. So we're showing those ads to people that
poor credit and high credit card balance is clearly a
good audience for a bankruptcy attorney. And then the final one,
(17:46):
and this is getting into we decent work in the
mass toward space as well. And one of our data
providers is a specialty medical data provider, and what they've
done is they've grabbed all of the medical diagnosises, surgeries
and test package. This anonymized at a tip A compliant.
But for example, if you're in the mass tortue space
(18:08):
and you're working with in the miso and lung cancer
asbestos mass tortue, then we are able to target ads
towards people that there's been a lung cancer diagnosis in
the household. Between medical data, motorcycle data, income data, those
are all very distinct and by the way, all three
of those are examples where those data bits are coming
(18:29):
from different data providers that we're able to plug into
the system and then serve your ADS to those folks.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong here, But I
find that you do want to get your targeting correct,
but you don't want to over target. And what I
mean by that is, you know, meso thelioma.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Cases art would be.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
You know, for an attorney that does mesothema are very
tough to come by. There's maybe three thousand to thirty
five hundred diagnosed a year. So if you say, hey,
I want to target everybody in the last month they
got target that was diagnosed with this, you know you're
still talking about a very small population and TV is
(19:11):
a broad you know, shotgun approach. You're not talking and
you've made this example before, but if someone types in
mesothelial mesothelioma lawyer to Google, that is a one on
one relationship with Google.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
They serve an ad because you're buying that term. That's
person in what.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
We would call a buying mode. But you can't just
advertise your mesothelioma commercial to two people you know in
a month. So you could probably add some more a
detail to that, but I tell people, don't smart yourself
by trying to over target. You still need to have
somewhat of a broad array, so you're hitting people multiple times.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Absolutely, Eric, And it's a great point because this is
you know, I get asked a lot, is this a
digital product or is this TV? And the answer is
it's both. It's but it's still outward bound marketing. You're
still sharing a message with someone that may or may
not be interested in what you're doing right now. So
(20:11):
the MISO is a little bit more specific. But let
me talk about like auto accent, because I imagine a
lot of your listeners are in the auto accent business.
They're looking for auto accent clients and We know very
well that most people have not been in an auto accident,
but we have a data bit that says been in
an auto accent recent So to your point, we're not
(20:32):
only showing ads to people that have recently been in
an auto accent. We're showing ads to one hundred two
hundred million impressions a month, depending on the size of
your campaign. And what's really important and what we see
really hard data and good data over the lift that
people see both in leads and cases signed. That's why
you do all these things is because when somebody watches TV,
(20:56):
they have their phone on their lap and maybe they
haven't been in an accident. Six months later, they're in
an accident and they google. Hopefully they google the name
of your firm' that's the holy brail. But if they don't,
they google a car accident lawyer near me, and they've
seen your ad five to ten times a month over
the last six months, they're much more likely to click
(21:17):
your organically or your paid PPC. So what we're saying again,
this is about the consumer. This is how consumers are
interacting with businesses. Now, is that clearly this marketing works,
it's targeted, it's brand marketing, it's consideration marketing. But then
at the time that they're ready to pick up the phone,
(21:39):
we want them to choose you because of the streaming
TV that you have been doing previously.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, and I think if you're a law firm that
is thinking about advertising, you have to understand this is
a completely different product in every way than Google, PPC
or even organic. Again, if someone got into a car
accident and they type in car accident lawyer near me,
if your AD or you're organic listing is in the
(22:06):
top half of Google, you might have an opportunity to
talk to this person and pull them in. That's person
actively looking. So that's very measurable. You can see the
person came in. You can tell they came from your
Google My Business profile, or they came from your PPC AD.
It's very measurable to say I got this client from this.
Attorneys love that this is not that, but there are
(22:30):
lots of other benefits to this that are unseen. And
what I mean by that is because as you let's
just take one hundred thousand, If you're reaching one hundred
thousand people a month with your advertising, and we know
because of your tools that we're not talking about these
are I think even more accurate that you're delivering these
one hundred thousand views than even cable er broadcast just
(22:54):
because of the technology that you have. So think about
of that one hundred thousand, how many actually need a
car accident lawyer that month? Probably very few, But every
single one of them is seeing your law firm name.
They're getting your messaging. As you mentioned before, it's the
person who you helped two years ago. Oh god, that
reminds me about that law firm. They did such a
(23:14):
good job for me. So they can have a good
effect for a referral down the line, and that's something
that builds over time. So I would say this is
a great tool for you to market yourself, brand yourself. Yes,
bring in phone calls, because someone who was recently in
an accident could see that go oh my god, I
need that attorney right now. But you have to be
(23:36):
able to understand the benefits of that streaming as opposed
to just regular GPC.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
That's completely on the other side of the spectrum.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Sure, And I would would add to that, Eric, And actually,
I was just at a legal conference two weeks ago,
and I had a lot of clients that were in
the room, and so they've been crunching some numbers and
looking at data over the last six months, and so
there is very tangible results just looking at this. This
(24:06):
is what our average lead volume in case volume was
per month pre streaming. They didn't make any other changes
other than moving budget from linear TV to streaming. So yes,
I'm going to take credit for that one because there
are no other changes made. So by deductive reasoning, we
typically see after ninety to one hundred and twenty days
(24:28):
fifteen to thirty percent lift in both leads and cases.
And the other thing that is that we see over
and over is that their conversion percentages tend to go
up in their PPC, their intake. People are getting more
qualified leads because again there is some credibility. I don't
and I don't want to over sell this because if
somebody says, did you see my ad on Bridger Chen
(24:50):
on Netflix, Nobody's going to remember that. But over the
course of one hundred and twenty days and hundreds of
thousands of impressions and then just that scale of having
and the other thing with streaming that's really very, very
powerful is that we have a lot of control over
reach and frequency, and I'm getting really kind of into
(25:12):
the weeds, But we don't want to kill people with
so many different so many ads over and over and
over that it's wasteful. It might even be a little
detrimental if you're just hitting them with too many ads.
They get kind of tired of seeing your smiling face
in your market. But we think five to ten ads
per month for viewer is a really good sweet spot.
(25:32):
So again that's where we just see that lift over
the ninety one and twenty days. And we have folks
that have been with us three and four years and
just continue as the audience moves from linear TV to streaming,
they tend they're just moving their budgets from the linear
side to the streaming side.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
And you do, you do have another very technically interesting
way to track with a pixel that somebody can put
on their website.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Can you explain how that works?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Sure, because we know exactly the IP addresses that we've
served the ads, and then when anybody visits a website,
then your website will measure well, what IP address are
they coming from? So what we can do is called
a weblift pixel. So we placed the Weblift pixel on
the client's website and it measures the IP addresses that
(26:24):
have come into the website, and then we look in
our system and said, do we have a match of
an IP address that we've served an AD. So at
the end of the month, we're able to show this
is how many people or how many visitors. We don't
know exact because it could be duplicate visitors, but this
is how many people have seen your AD that we
have served that consult TV has served across our network
(26:46):
of publishers and has also visited the client's website.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, and that's I think really cool because I don't
think that was possible even a couple of years ago,
or it wasn't something that was offered. And you know,
cabling broadcast again, I keep referring back to that because
you know, anybody who did TV that was ubiquitous on
TV ten years ago, you know, they were kind of
just throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall and
(27:10):
if they had enough budget and tested enough things, then
they might be able to be successful. But now you
can be more creative, you can be more targeted, you
can be smarter about where you're going to spend those dollars.
And even tell now when that person saw your commercial
and also visited your website, which I think is really cool.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
It is it definitely, you know, those are steps on
the path of success. I mean I look at it
as having worked in legal marketing for twenty years all
whether it's PPC, streaming, billboards, whatever the tactic is. Ultimately
we're measured against helping the firm grow and providing a
good POPP acquisition and bringing in new clients. And this
(27:54):
is really fun because we can show that over a
relatively short time. I needed to in twenty days, and
it's just the logic is pretty simple. Your eyeballs are
now and streaming, and you've worked hard. You've worked your
butt off to build your brand. Some of the law
firms we work with have been in their markets for
twenty or thirty years, so they have brand recognition. But
(28:17):
the same way that Budweiser advertises every Super Bowl. Nobody
watches the Super Bowl and is not familiar with Budweiser.
But why do they do it? Because they want to
keep that brand top of mind. And sometimes they're going
to buy Budweiser. Sometimes they're going to buy an IPA.
But whatever the case is, so that that's still those
principles still hold true.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah, And I think the other thing this does is
it opens up streaming TV advertising to a group of
law firms that probably thought it was out of their
reach to be on TV before. And what I mean
by that is if you're in the LA market, and
you know, if you were buying cablein.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Broadcast, you had to buy that entire ten million.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Person audience, which is un believably expensive. So most law
firms were just priced out. Well, now if you're in
Torrance or if you're in Culver City, you can probably
find a budget where you're marketing, like you said, as
a restaurant, you're marketing to people a half mile from
you or a mile from you, and your pricing is
being reflective of that. So instead of trying to get
(29:20):
your one hundred thousand plus uh, you know views a
month in an enormous DMA, you pick out your backyard
and you could be the eight hundred pound gorilla in
your backyard.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
With those ads.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
One hundred percent. That's a great point, Eric, and it's
also you know what and what we've seen. As a
matter of fact, I have some meetings this week of
folks that have been on TV previously, so they have
creative that they've used, and they were saying their response
from TV go down, which again is not only streaming's fault,
but just we're all fragmented. We all have so many
(29:56):
entertainment choices now that to just you know, what was
so effected give even five years ago on linear TV
is less so now. So the point is now we're
seeing people that have said, you know, we saw success
pre COVID on TV and then that diminished over time,
and now they're bringing that that creative all out and
then sprucing it up and to your point, having a
(30:18):
much more target approach.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Yeah, and I just don't think it can be understated.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
How you know, if somebody said, well, my, you know,
how do I maybe the person I'm targeting doesn't have Netflix,
so they don't have Amazon, or they don't have Hulu,
You're able to put a digital ad in front of
them no matter what they have, as long as they
have some type of streaming, that person can see one
of these ads. And you you alluded to creative. What
(30:46):
if someone's thinking about doing this and it sounds exciting
to them and they want to do something on TV
what do you have suggestions for them and creative or
how would you approach that?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Sure, so let me answer it too ways. So the
first way is folks that already have creative in the
camp that they've done TV, they're doing it now or
they've done it before. So what I always it's much
easier to work backwards from the existing creative And for example,
if you have a motorcycle AD, let's run that against
motorcycle households. If you have a Spanish speaker AD, let's
(31:18):
run that against Spanish speaking households, et cetera, et cetera.
And then if you have an AD that's location specific,
you're standing in front of the courthouse in a small
town near your office, that's also again, so we can
work backwards from there. So I would say, with your
existing creative, how can we get more specific in the targeting?
(31:38):
A huge opportunity to to build brand to get leads
coming in. So that's the first answer. On the folks
that maybe have not done TV in to your point, say, okay,
you know I can't be in the entire La DMA,
but I can get in there and try to hit
a five mile radius around my office or I've got
a list of two thousand people helped over the last
(32:00):
ten years. Whatever the case is, I want to hit
those zip codes. Then I would say we are not
a creative agency, but we work very closely with creative agency.
So I would just have them reach out to you,
Eric and we can just have a conversation. I know
you have a lot of expertise in that area, but
I would really think about what is your unique selling proposition?
Just the basics. Remember this this is where it's still
(32:23):
a TV AD, So you want to have a unique
selling proposition. You want to have your URL on the
ad throughout QR codes They're not esthetically pleasing, but they're valuable,
they're worth having, or a QR code, have your phone
number prominent throughout the entire ad, and ultimately I would
(32:43):
just leave with The final thought is is don't try
to be all things to all people. Like ye I
know this is going to be a little Tony Robbins
moment here, but you know, be your true self. If
you're really aggressive, I'm going to kick the insurance companies,
but knock yourself out. Go for it and own it.
But if that's not who you are, then then you
(33:05):
know again, just kind of go with your authentic self
and it helps because you don't want to just copy
what everybody else is doing. You want to portray and
convey where your firm has come from.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I've told people
this to my whole career. Is you know, there's never
a silver bullet. There's never one message that's going to
resonate with every single person. So it's best to stick
to what you do and what you really believe in.
So if you're the lawyer in blue jeans, be the
lawyer in blue jeans.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
If you like to be.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Suited up always wearing a tie, that's how you should
do your commercials. And the other thing that TV streaming
does is it actually gives you a little bit higher
cachet and there's a little bit more of a celebrity.
Anybody who's on TV all of a sudden gets elevated
in the person who's watching TV's eyes. And I know
(33:54):
this to be true because last year we ran a
bunch of focus groups to talk about how people would
search online who would they would choose, But inevitably someone
would say, oh, I've seen that person's ads on TV
and you could just tell the way they spoke about
it that it elevated them in their mind. I would
call that for I've seen them on TV quite a
(34:15):
bit so, and I've heard attorneys say before like, oh,
I'm getting recognized from my commercials now and people come
in that I feel like I already know you because
I've seen your ad. So one of the other ancillary
benefits of running TV is you start to get some
presence of mind amongst your community.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
It's the conference that I was just alluding to. There
were two gentlemen that were very regular TV advertisers, have
been for decades, and they were both saying amongst themselves, like,
is it tiresome to be out in public because people
recognize you because you've been on TV for so long?
And both of them basically conferred and said no, because
(34:57):
you never know if this is a potential client, know
if this is somebody that we could have helped before.
So while it's not awesome to have your meal interrupted
by a stranger, it is it just it does show
that to your point, there's cachet and people feel like
they know you because they've seen your messaging on TV.
And sure enough, these are two folks that have built
(35:20):
very successful practices and have been consistent over the decades,
so that they feel it anecdotally in the real world.
But I also say, look, when you look at these numbers,
you know, minutes, you know, smaller budgets still reach tens
of thousands of people. So it doesn't matter the one hundred,
two hundred, five hundred people that you know, there's thousands
and thousands of people that are moving into your area.
(35:42):
Don't know. Again, marketing one on one, but it's it's
a powerful medium. But then you do feel it when
you're sitting at the local restaurant and someone says, I
saw your ad. Can I get a picture with you?
Which it does happen to these gentlemen quite often.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, well, I think I think what you do is
a great service to the to the you know, and
I know you work outside of legal as well, but
I do think if anybody is thinking about doing it,
a conversation with you would be very beneficial. Just we
only kind of got to the tip of the iceberg
about what you know about this stuff, But did we
miss anything that you think, you know, the audience should
(36:19):
hear on streaming itself.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
That you'd like to leave. As kind of a final thought.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, thanks for asking. I would say this is that
despite all of the news, I think streaming TV I
run across the constantly because I'm in and up up
to my eyeballs. But right now, it's still about ninety
percent of the TV budget is still on linear and
broadcast TV. So there's a huge opportunity for existing TV
(36:48):
advertisers to capture and unlock audiences that are not being accessed,
just the pure numbers of it. So if you are
a TV advertiser, get with your agency, get with an
expert like yourself, Eric, reach out to me because there's
huge opportunities. You already have the creative and ultimately, whether
(37:11):
you do it through me or you do it through
your existing agency, whatever the case is, you're going to
reach eyeballs you're not currently reaching and that's going to
help your business growth.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah, and sorry, I'll cap that off, and again I'll
have you correct me if I'm wrong. But obviously that
cable and broadcast, as more people start going over to streaming,
I think that audience that's still only doing cable broadcast
is getting.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Older and older.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
So if you're if you're selling something that hits that
audience great, But millennials are now in their forties and
those are prime targets for just about any practice area.
So as you just mentioned, by just by switching to streaming,
you're going to get eyeballs that you never had access
to before.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's it's and and you again, we're getting deeper in
the weeds. But the numbers are really they're they're stunning.
For millennials and younger, they just they just don't watch
that they have they've never had a cable subscription. So
and they're the ones that are commuting, they're in their cars,
et cetera. And like you said, millennials are forty now,
so it's a time waits for no one. And again,
(38:19):
just that audience alone, they're shifting. You can't if if
you're sailing your your your sailboat, you can't get mad
at the wind. You got to adjust your sales. And
in the TV advertising world right now, your audience is
leaving traditional the traditional space.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
So how can someone get a hold of you? You
got a book that you're selling, are any movies coming up?
What's the best way for someone to get ahold of you?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Or sure, I'm easy to find I'm on LinkedIn. So
my name is David Klein k L E I N
like Calvin spells his name. No no relation there but
google David Cline Consult TV. I'll pop up on LinkedIn.
We've got a website, certainly through you. We we've got
a great relationship. I appreciate the work we've done together,
(39:10):
Eric and having me on this podcast. My email address
is Decline at consult dot tv and phone number seven
zero four five six four eight seven four five.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
David, thanks for your time and sharing all your knowledge
with the audience today.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Take care, Eric, you have a great day.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Thanks for listening to the Legal Mastermind podcast presented by
Market my market if you can check out additional episodes
and recaps at Legalmastermind podcast dot com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com