KCAA: Let's Dine Out with Allan Borgen (Sun, 7 Dec, 2025)

KCAA: Let's Dine Out with Allan Borgen on Sun, 7 Dec, 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hosts.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
The Supreme Court is expected to rule next year on
whether or not President Trump can end birthright citizenship. The
High Court granted an appeal in the case Friday. A
Supreme Court decision is expected by the end of June,
and a fast moving winter storm is causing travel headaches
across much of the US today. The bad weather has
grounded hundreds of flights. Lisa Carton NBC News Radio.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
NBC News on CACAA Lomolada, sponsored by Teamsters Local nineteen
thirty two, Protecting the Future of Working Families Teamsters nineteen
thirty two dot org.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
You're listening to an encore presentation of this program KCAA,
The Inland Talk, Express.

Speaker 5 (00:47):
Food, Glorious Food, Weird, anxious to try.

Speaker 6 (00:55):
Saday our favorite diet.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Just take your own man AT's stake right both litter
still wonderful.

Speaker 7 (01:36):
Welcome to another delicious edition of the Let's sign out
Show Food.

Speaker 8 (01:40):
Put it allan borg in here and is he bussy?

Speaker 9 (01:42):
And we have another fun show for you today. Not
that all the shows aren't fun, similar boring. I fall
asleep sometimes too.

Speaker 8 (01:51):
That's a good way to promo your own show.

Speaker 9 (01:53):
Thank you, I'm professional. Don't do this at home. So anyway,
as you all know, I'm very fond of pizzas. I've
been a judge at the International Pizza expol for the
last twelve thirteen years. I kind of have lots of
track of how many, but right around that time, and
I've met some great people and it's just the excitement
that goes on there is amazing and a lot of
a transfers back to us as consumers, so hopefully there'll

(02:17):
be some in our area. There are worthy bj aj Burrilli's.

Speaker 7 (02:21):
In you Kaipa.

Speaker 9 (02:22):
When they were around, they won a competition and their
pizzas were fantastic, So we have a lot of them
coming up that are good. But we have a guest
on today who he won the Pizza Maker of the
Year award, which is something that's there's over five hundred,
I believe five hundred and fifty contestants, so he's quite
a bit in from all over the world, so it's

(02:43):
a big honor to have him. And again we're gonna
be there's a brand new place that I heard of.
It's actually in Huntington Beach, but they're supposed to have
the best Detroit style pizza, which is by far the
best pizza of my favorite Izzi's too, and so we'll
be having him on and going there and in this
area too. We're gonna be on a search for some

(03:04):
incredible piece of fines. Also, we're starting up again our
grub Club Yay yay. Pandemic killed it and it's been
a while for us to get it going again. Wasn't
our fault so much, it was just that restaurants didn't
have the staff or they just couldn't handle it.

Speaker 7 (03:20):
Now it's getting better and better.

Speaker 9 (03:21):
So we're hand choosing which restaurants are going to go
to and it's free to join, and we'll have more
information in the next couple of weeks. It should be
going in terms of getting our mailing list and everything
was solidified, but.

Speaker 8 (03:35):
So stay tuned because all that information is coming to you.
If you're not on the subscription list, reach out to
Alan Borgan on the Let's Dine Out CA on the
Facebook or you can find him on Instagram at Alan
dot Organ b O R G E N a message
hum and let them know that you're interested. Be on
the mailing list, or you.

Speaker 9 (03:55):
Can call it Izzy at her number in nine or
nine five one four through three, five, that's nine, one, five, four.

Speaker 7 (04:00):
FIF three or five. Okay, yeah, funny, I get a
reaction from you though.

Speaker 9 (04:05):
Okay, let's do a quick commercials some of our sponsors
and we'll be getting our guests pretty soon, so stay tuned.

Speaker 7 (04:11):
We'll be right back.

Speaker 6 (04:12):
Hi.

Speaker 9 (04:12):
I'm food critic Gallenborgan, and I'm excited to tell you
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Speaker 9 (04:28):
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Speaker 7 (04:43):
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Speaker 9 (04:47):
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Speaker 7 (07:50):
Hi.

Speaker 9 (07:51):
I'm food critic Allen Borgan, and you can dine in,
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I highly recommend Cowboy Burgers and Barbecue at their new
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Speaker 7 (08:05):
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in Fontana and now in Riverside on Arlington.

Speaker 7 (08:21):
Welcome back to Let's sign out show food critic Allen
Borgan here and is he buzzy?

Speaker 9 (08:26):
And we're just waiting for a guest a couple of minutes. Yeah,
speak our sponsors. We have some really great ones, and
again they're all hand picked. If I don't like them,
if if we don't like them, actually we're not going
to have them. I don't care about, you know, help
supporting anybody. I'm sorry, I'm honest, you know, my credibility
is everything. And but all these all these great sponsors
are really incredible.

Speaker 7 (08:46):
Now.

Speaker 9 (08:46):
Also at Rays, they just added sushi, which we're gonna
be going to.

Speaker 7 (08:49):
And trying it.

Speaker 8 (08:50):
Oh, I cannot wait.

Speaker 7 (08:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (08:53):
They also opened a new little place with their formal
firm former location where they have the you know, it's
kind of like a Cajun style seafood feast where they
just booked on table and everything. So we're gonna try
that out.

Speaker 8 (09:06):
And a perfect for a rainy day oh yeah, which.

Speaker 7 (09:08):
We're going to have.

Speaker 9 (09:09):
So if Joe, if you can call our guests up
and we can get them right away.

Speaker 7 (09:15):
Other than that, pizza is incredible. Uh.

Speaker 9 (09:17):
You know, before I got started this whole culinary venture
of mine with pizzas, I thought, there you know there's
some good pizzas, but you know, my favorite was the
Chicago style pizzas.

Speaker 7 (09:27):
You know, the one in.

Speaker 9 (09:30):
In a Marino Valley Chicago pasta house had probably the
best one I've ever had. But since I've been tasting
pizzas from around the world, it's really opened my eyes
to what a great pizza is. And you know, it's
more than just you know, the price. I mean a
lot of times you pay for what you get. I
guess that's the bottom line.

Speaker 8 (09:48):
Well, and good ingredients and good quality ingredients does make
a difference in big different pieces, and then it does
make the cost difference, right, I mean, you know you can't.
It's back to you know, want a ferrari, but pay
for McDonald's price.

Speaker 7 (10:03):
You know. So that's not a real good look, get you.

Speaker 9 (10:09):
But you can you can go to seven eleven and
get a piece of pizza there for a dollar whatever
it is, or actually they should pay you to eat it.
So but we have on our line, I guess who.
Unfortunately I didn't taste his pizzas at all. It's a
blind tasting, and from what he told what I read
about it, I didn't have that one that tastes so uh,
there's no uh, what's the word bias or anything, But

(10:32):
I just admire anybody who who competes, and anybody who
wins is even more special. And with us is Tony,
Sarah Melli and Tony. Welcome to Let's sign out show.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
Hey, great to be here, guys, thanks for having me.

Speaker 9 (10:45):
Before we get started, tell us what city you're in.
We both can't pronounce it.

Speaker 4 (10:51):
Yeah, so it's a small little I live in Pittston, Pennsylvania,
which is by old Ford, but I am from a
small little town in northeastern Pennsylvania called Nesquahoning. Okay, I
grew up there my whole life, small little coal town.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
You know.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
I graduated with eighty two kids from pat Valley High School.
And yeah, that's we're from a New Columbus section of
nest Klahona. And that's why I call them New Columbus pizzas.

Speaker 9 (11:20):
Okay, yeah, we're both we talk here here. You said
you mentioned you met, so I don't let him just
do it.

Speaker 7 (11:25):
So, okay, let's talk about you in terms of how
you got into the whole pizza business. And let's start
with that.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
Yeah, so my family's been in the food business since
like nineteen fifty eight, we had a very large catering business.
And in the beginning of everything, my grandmother would make
pizzas from my uncle and instead of eating it, they
would take it to like the local fire company or
the town or the local corner bar and they would

(11:54):
sell it. So, you know, along along the lines of
half catering, we would have pizza every Friday. I continued
on until about twenty twelve when my uncle decided to retire.
It started with my The business was started by my
grandparents and my uncle. My dad and mom own the house.
I grew up there my entire life until I got

(12:16):
married and moved out. And my pizza journey really kind
of started when I met my wife, Marianne, who's from
Old Fords. You know Old Fords. They have very famous
for pizza, a lot of wonderful people and that pizza
in that town in northeastern Pennsylvania, and dating her kind
of sparked my interest in making pizza. I really it

(12:38):
was kind of it. Not that I was tired of it.
I just didn't really have an interest in it, having
been forced to do it a lot in my life
as a kid, right and and you know, when I
saw maybe I can make a couple of bucks with
this because our pizza was similar. It's not old Ford's pizza.
I wouldn't call it that, but it's similar. And I
started my journey. You know, I started making fire broke.

(13:00):
I couldn't tell you how many kitchen aid mixers I broke.
Probably gained some some weight doing it, but you know,
and that led to my uncle retiring and me wanting
to keep a family tradition going, but just just to
really help my mom and dad at the time and
kind of explore with what I could do. So we
redid the kitchen, kind of started over, started fresh, and

(13:23):
I started, you know, making pizzas every every week. We
only saw them one day a week. We do a
little bit of catering. And that's when I came across
the Pizza Bible and Tony Geminiani, right, you know, I
would message him a couple He's never going to get
back to me, never going to get back to me,
you know, but he did. And then and the fortunate

(13:45):
thing he released the Pizza Bible, and he was coming
through Pennsylvania and I saw him post that he was
going to go to old Ford. I said, Hey, let
me meet you. I'd love to take you to a
couple of places. Me and my buddy Cosmo Seleerno met him,
and then he invited me to come to ex you know,
and then the rest is history. I kind of started competing.
I put on his team, the World Pizza Champions, and

(14:06):
here we are today.

Speaker 7 (14:07):
Wow.

Speaker 9 (14:08):
What was that like competing, especially for the first time,
or do you remember your first time there?

Speaker 8 (14:14):
Dude?

Speaker 4 (14:14):
You know what's funny. I think the first time I competed,
it was the least stressful for me because I had
no idea what I was doing. And the more and
more I competed, it got more stressful. You know. But
you they go for making pizza in your house or
in your little basement pizza shop, and now, all of
a sudden, the first time I competed, I'm making it

(14:35):
in front of a decent crowd and I had to
tell the judges what I was doing. It was pretty stressful,
but I got through. I think I came in like
eleventh my first time, and I.

Speaker 7 (14:43):
Was okay, Yeah.

Speaker 9 (14:45):
This time around is their fortieth anniversary, is the largest
they had about what five hundred and I heard five
different things five thirty five sixty competitors.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
I don't yeah, I don't know. I don't think they
were all eligible. Maybe they were. I know they had.
The five divisions that were allowed to compete for Pizza
Maker of the Year were obviously pan pizza, Neapolitan, Traditional
and non traditional.

Speaker 6 (15:07):
And.

Speaker 9 (15:11):
Cheese cheese yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:15):
Best cheese, And then I know they had some OONI
competitions as well. But we had fifty in my division.
The other divisions had I don't know many how many
cheese had I know Neapoloito and I think was over fifty,
and then we were into the hundreds I think in
traditional and non traditional.

Speaker 9 (15:32):
Now you wanted Okay, so your division? Which one divisions
you have?

Speaker 4 (15:37):
So I competed in pan.

Speaker 9 (15:38):
Okay, when you talk about that, I can't talk about
that pizza? What what would consisted of?

Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah? So that pizza was you know, I you know,
I so last year when I made I made an
old forged double crust white pizza that the judges I
don't think they liked it. I did better with one
that was tough a few years ago. But I came
in forty fifth out of forty eight and I really,
I really didn't want to do it anymore. I was
very down on myself and I said, no, you know what,

(16:06):
you know, my dad had passed away a couple of
years ago. I said he wouldn't, so so I kept
I kept working on a working on a Sicilian dough.
I was working on the dough for a couple of years.
It's a nice three day, you know, a nice three
day for men for mental dough, really light and airy
and crispy. So I had the dough pretty good, and
I entered a similar pizza. They did a cheese slice

(16:29):
in Atlantic City. So I entered into that competition with
with the same type of pizza, but there was no
par bak allowed and I came in third. So I
was like, well, I think I have something here. And
then you know, I entered the same pizza, the same dough,
sauce and cheese combination into the pan competition in Vegas Differences.

(16:53):
We were allowed to par bak there, which I definitely parbaked,
and you know, came out of the oven. It was
an upside down Sicilian basically, and they came out of
the oven. And I finished it with a pepperoni jam
that was made in Texas by Lee Hunterker and honey
with marscapone rogotta with you know a little bit of oregano,

(17:14):
fresh basil and a garlic oil. So it was really
a simple pizza. But I think, you know, we had
definitely nailed the combination flavors, and I was lucky enough
to come in third. I think I was against mostly Detroit.

Speaker 7 (17:26):
In the top five if I remember.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
And the competitors there. I mean, you know, I think
Charlie Webb from Hudson and Packard, he was like second
and third the last couple of years, these mixed killer pizzas,
and I was like, well, if I leave here with third,
I'll still be pretty happy. And then you know, I
made the day obviously sant pizza in the finals on Thursday.
And then you know when when they call was a

(17:51):
few of us, you know, from the team, Me, Anthony Bergella,
Johnny Christina and we were standing next to each other
and when they called Charlie second, we looked at each
other like what because I didn't expect that, or or
I can't remember that. Jim Minner, Jim Minner, I think
from Square Pie Guys does a great.

Speaker 11 (18:08):
Job as well.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
What's that?

Speaker 6 (18:10):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (18:11):
Go ahead, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (18:12):
Oh yeah. So when they called my name first, it
was like Elatia. I could not believe it. M and
and from there it was on to pizza maker there.

Speaker 7 (18:20):
Wow.

Speaker 9 (18:21):
Now in terms of that, who's some of your mentors
that you that have helped you through besides Tony?

Speaker 4 (18:29):
So my mother and father obviously, no question. You know,
I would credit Mark and Angel Janelle from Old Forge
when I first started to help me get started. Marry
lu Brigetto from Old Forge as well. You know. Unfortunately,
when my uncle retired, we get some family strife so
from his from relatives that you know, didn't want to

(18:51):
like take take over the business. So there was no
recipes or anything that I got. I use it. My
parents had well and made pizza, but but they those
people and just really some some some friends. I'm Derek Sanchez,
Lee Hunterker, Anthony Burgella, I'm locally one of my best friends.
Cosmo Sauerno makes great pizza. Johnny Debone at Bar Pozo

(19:13):
makes great pizza. We all kind of collaborate together. Tony
Triano out in Chicago, John Christina I mentioned just you
know that those kind.

Speaker 9 (19:22):
Of hands sounds like everybody's out there helping each other,
aren't they We give.

Speaker 4 (19:26):
You a little tips. I mean it really, you know,
especially once you become friends. You know, we were always talking,
you know, it's we're always talking pizza with each other. Well, Dad,
I should do this, I should do that, Try this,
try that. You know, it's pretty cool, really really cool cool.

Speaker 7 (19:41):
You mentioned Derek Sanchez. How long have you known him?

Speaker 4 (19:45):
So I've known Derek probably he's on the team, what
maybe three we've gotten closed in the last couple of years,
but probably know Derek almost five or six years. I guess,
just wonderful.

Speaker 7 (19:58):
Well, guess what soun right? Well? Is he you want
to introduce our guests to Calton?

Speaker 8 (20:04):
Yeah, well, we have somebody here to call in to
support you, and I wonder who it is is, Derek?
How you do it?

Speaker 12 (20:15):
Tell me everything I know about pizza in everything A way.

Speaker 11 (20:20):
Dude is awesome.

Speaker 12 (20:21):
Man, I'll tell you what, me and my family can't
be more happy for someone like Tony to win. It's
an amazing fee that it's tremendously hard to win that
competition and for someone like him to do it, man, it's.

Speaker 11 (20:34):
Just icing on the cake.

Speaker 9 (20:35):
Yeah, just all of you, I mean, just to be
there and doing that. I mean, it's that's what amazes
me as a as a judge.

Speaker 7 (20:42):
I mean, I admire every pizza.

Speaker 9 (20:44):
I may not like some of them and not everything
turned out, but everyone who's there, I mean, it's it's
hard competing against the world's best. And again we had
you had people from Italy, of course, you had people
from what Monica, I think you had one from.

Speaker 8 (20:59):
There's people from all over Asia.

Speaker 9 (21:01):
Asia, yeah, China and Shanghai, China, Singapore, Thailand, I mean,
all over the world. And to win anything amongst people
like that, and it's pretty amazing. And the thing that
really impresses me is the whole industry. All you guys
are pretty much there to help each other, and you
never quit. You never stay on your own laurels, and

(21:23):
you're always growing. You always want to grow. And it's
like when just when, especially you Derek, when you get
to one place, it's like, okay, I've done that down,
let me go here somewhere else. And that's what makes
you not to yours, but Tony's and everybody else is
so good your pizzas is that you're always trying. It's
not the same old things and unfortunate where we live.

(21:43):
That's what you find most pizza places. I'm you know,
I'm sure they're there to make money, and you know
they don't want to get too fancied.

Speaker 7 (21:49):
I could see that.

Speaker 9 (21:50):
But in terms of credibility, once you've had one of
your pizzas, award winning pizzas, you never want to have
anything else.

Speaker 11 (21:58):
Yeah, I agree, I don't want to pus his interview.
I agree. Hey Tony, how you doing, brother? I agree?
I agree.

Speaker 12 (22:06):
What you know, you have some of the best flavors
and chefs from around the world competing, and that's what
makes the competition so legitimate. And then it's hard to
get those flavors at local restaurants. What people work on
over the years to produce to try to win this thing,
it's hard to get him at local restaurants. Man, it's
sure especial when you do have a nice pizza.

Speaker 7 (22:28):
How is Tony as a student? Did you listen to you?

Speaker 11 (22:32):
Uh?

Speaker 12 (22:32):
Well, I mean Tony really what my student? He just
you know, like he said, man, we we work together.
We collaborate a lot about what to do with this
and that, and we're always picking each other's minds on
different situations and how it is and competitions and.

Speaker 11 (22:48):
What we want.

Speaker 12 (22:50):
You know, I'm really into the dough science, and you
know I may have helped him just a little bit
on that, but it was his own creation, his own deal.
We just tweaked the according to weather and according to
barometric pressures and all that nerdy stuff I'm into. But
beside that, Tony man, you know, he's kind of one
of those guys. Man, you give him one little, one

(23:10):
little hint and you just get out of his way.

Speaker 7 (23:12):
Wow.

Speaker 11 (23:13):
He just he wins world championships. Man, he just you know,
he is that is that caliber pizza maker.

Speaker 7 (23:18):
Wow, Tony.

Speaker 9 (23:19):
In terms of your pizzas and everything, what what in
your area? What's the number one pizza at your restaurant
that people love?

Speaker 6 (23:28):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (23:28):
My restaurant is our family's original, which yeah, so you
know it's funny, you know, and I would say that,
you know, it's kind of like a memory type of pizza.
It's more of like a bakery type of pizza, right,
you know. And people will laugh when I say this,

(23:50):
but it's people love it and it really it breaks
every Derek will probably hope he's sitting down because I
think we talked about this, but that pizza breaks every
probably rule in the book when it comes to making
it and what you put on and how you eat it.
But it is literally what it's a twenty four hour dough.

(24:10):
But the dough is made, it's run through a sheeter,
it's put into a pan, it's dock. It is topped
with sauce which is mostly mostly tomatoes, a little bit
of like a puree as well all dried spices. That's
a little on the sweeter side. And this is where
the history of northeastern Pennsylvania comes in a little bit

(24:33):
and where I think there's a little bit of a
myth out there. But my grandmother would push She put
tons of locatelli cheese on it, pretty much like a
you know, piccerina romano, just kind of like a Philadelphia
tomato pie. The difference is she used.

Speaker 7 (24:47):
American teat Oh wow, Derek, is Derek still there?

Speaker 12 (24:55):
I'm taking notes and learning right now.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
But yeah, so but where that and I would ask
my father, you know, where did that come in? And
that really comes in from back, you know, in the
forties and fifties when she would make this, they didn't
have money. They were you know, you know, just getting by,
right and she would put the cheese on from the
the government that they called the Government Chiefe, right, and

(25:19):
that's what they use. And that is a staple actually
through a lot of northeastern Pennsylvania, though some people don't
use this straight. We make other specialty pizzas. We mix
it a little bit, but that's kind of what that is.
And I have to tell you when I first took over,
I tried to make the pizza a little bit more
like old Forge and I got I was like in trouble,

(25:41):
so I that pizza. It is on our menu. It
is I will never change it now. And this will
really story for a loop my family had because it's
in a pan. It's gold by eighteen pans. Actually they're
custom pans. They're level by seventeen. But they had little

(26:01):
aluminum because it was a small place, so they had
a little aluminum stackers put on them, right, so you
could they kind of go over the pizza and you
could stack pizzas on top of each other. And they
literally get sauce and cheese and they get put in
the fridge overnight sauce and cheese. They come out very
early in the morning. They proof up for a few
hours and then they get baked.

Speaker 11 (26:22):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Wow.

Speaker 7 (26:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (26:23):
The history if you're listening to people like you experts
are just it's amazing. Everyone's got their own little twist.
There's no one way of making dough.

Speaker 7 (26:31):
I mean.

Speaker 8 (26:32):
Plus, it's all the regional flavors, right, because I mean
everybody's what what in that region, what they ate and
what they grew up on is what triggers that memory
of childhood. Right, So that's what your taste palette develops.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
I will I will tell you one in regards to
that pizza and some people go, oh, American cheese on pizza.
I actually think it's pretty It's pretty tasty.

Speaker 11 (26:55):
You know.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
The crust is a little crunchy, it has a soft
tender bite to it. But if you make that pizza
and you let it sit out for a couple of
hours at room temperature, it is one of you know,
and I'm not saying this because I'm biased to it
is one of the best tasting pieces you'll eat. As
I mentioned, we had a large catering business and so

(27:18):
we would cater you know, huge weddings and all that
type of stuff. And for cocktail Hour you have the
chocolate fountains, and all this stuff from the antipasto and
we would cut that pizza in real small pieces and
you know, put it in nice trays. And it was
like the first thing that was.

Speaker 9 (27:34):
Gone, Okay, Derek, I'm sorry, go ahead, no, go ahead,
now say Derek, here pizza again.

Speaker 7 (27:43):
Work the American cheese. That's the new cheese.

Speaker 11 (27:45):
Oh man, I wouldn't know what to do with it.

Speaker 7 (27:47):
If not, okay, if you want to be a little
different velveto, that would be good for you.

Speaker 11 (27:51):
Here you go movie that we will make cheese dip over.

Speaker 9 (27:54):
Here with that exactly. So well, thanks for joining us, Derek.
I know you're get busy and everything, but thanks for
joining us. And uh, you know Tony, well we'll say
I'm with Tony obviously, so but choice.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
Thank Derek.

Speaker 7 (28:09):
Take care.

Speaker 9 (28:10):
Yeah, Derek. We met Derek. I met him about three
years ago, four years ago a little well, yeah, I
posted hit the competitor's picture on the internet and he
got really upset, like why did you do mine?

Speaker 7 (28:24):
How come mine mine?

Speaker 10 (28:25):
One?

Speaker 7 (28:25):
And everything?

Speaker 9 (28:26):
And I remember tasting it and I didn't like it,
and I told him why. After talking to him about
an hour, we became like best friends. He understood why,
and he said, you know, you're right, there's no variety,
and it's just funny how things develop. But you know,
you've got to be honest, and your pizzas are definitely honest.
And again I feel bad I havn't tasted, especially the
winning one, but hopefully I'll be able to.

Speaker 8 (28:47):
Yeah, so I read that you that was your you know,
first round and second round competing, and then in the
finals you had to make one basically from scratch from
whatever ingredients available, So you can't use the same ingredients
you had.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
You could only use your dough or your or your
par bank or whatever.

Speaker 8 (29:08):
Wow. So what did you actually end up baking on
the you know, your last round like to it?

Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah, so, you know, I've never been in anything like
that before. I just before, I guys, I couldn't I
agree with you, Alan. I can't say enough about Derek.

Speaker 7 (29:25):
He's just such a good guy.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
You know, he's the best on everything, you know, just
a great, great, beautiful human being. He But so yeah,
you know, getting back to the Pizza Maker of the Year,
you get to use your own crust and you have
to use their all the ingredients that they provide to
their utensils and everything, and then you have to use

(29:51):
a mystery ingredient. So we all, you know, time to go.
We get down there. You're looking at your stuff to
give you an assistance to grab things. I'm standing there looking.
I'm like, what am I gonna do? And and like
the first thing I saw, I just I prayed to
my dad. You know, I talked to him this entire competition.
I had my headphones on listening to Bruce Springston and

(30:13):
and and praying to my father then. So I was
just talking to my dad the whole time. And I
was like that his nickname is DeBie. I said, Depp,
like you kind of help me here, like what are
we doing? And I don't know. You pointed me too.
I saw some onions. I saw some beautiful peppers. I
looked at the refrigerator and saw sausage. I was like,

(30:33):
I'm gonna make a sauce and pepper pizza. And but
I made it in a way that you'd make like
a sauce and pepper stop. So you know, I just
I saw down some peppers, some sauce or some onions, peppers, garlic,
Danna claws were the tomatoes that were there. We were.
I used their new pisada that was just released called

(30:56):
Il Malino Divino. I think it is very, very tasty,
and taste it before I opened the can. I added
some spices to it and I put that it cooked
the peppers in the you know, softened them up a
little bit, chopped everything up. I crumbled sausage, and then
I assembled the pizza. I used some whole milk mozzarella,

(31:16):
you know, some peccerino or some palm, and then I
layered the saust and peppers on there. With the sauce,
I used some fresh whole milk rogotha and then the surprise,
It was not really too much of a surprise, but well,
then I bake it came out, got a little bit
more regrotha, and I finished it with gull bonnie fresh mozzarella.

(31:39):
That was the That was the surprise ingredient. So I
put it on there cold so it would just kind
of soften up a little bit to your bite. Then
a little bit of basil and again some garlic oils
and I whipped up quick and pray.

Speaker 9 (31:52):
Wow, wow, well obviously there is a guy that a
pizza god, and uh yeah, no, it's pretty amazing. And
I know the judges, you know, to be on the
panel there, all those judges are very seasoned. There's no
no first timers or anything. They really know their pizzas.
Every one of them are are professionals, and I you know,

(32:12):
it's it's a big award. I mean, hasn't done anything
to your business? Have you seen anything yet on that?

Speaker 4 (32:20):
Yeah, it's you know, and we're set up in a
way where we're only open one day a week. It's
not a full time thing for me.

Speaker 7 (32:26):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
So yeah, we were, you know obviously. You know, it
was funny. I was sitting in the airport Thursday night,
dead tired because I took the red Eye back to Philadelphia,
and it's like ten forty. My wife is texting me
when she's sleeping already, you know, and she's like, good

(32:48):
morning America. Got our unlisted home phone number, and he
called the house looking for you.

Speaker 8 (32:52):
I'm like, what my oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
And she yelled at them because she thought, oh great.
You know, Frank, by that time, we were all over
social media and she's like, they know you're in vegasy,
I'm home alone. I'm gonna get robbed. But she was
you know, she was like, all right, matters, Marianne. She's like, okay, Marianne,
just don't be so paranoid. And long story short, I

(33:17):
got this guy's phone number. I called them and we
literally did like a ten minute zoom before I got
on the plane.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
Yeah, they were doing something on pizza the next day.
I didn't even see it until I got home because
they aired right kind of when I was landing, and
they were doing something on pizza. And you know, they
showed a video I think Tera Hatton was in it
for doing for dough tossing and then they mentioned me
pizza maker of the Year and stuff. So that was cool.

(33:46):
But then that just like all the local newspapers, all
the news stations, it was like ding ming bing bing bing.
Was like my phone was still it's still it's starting
to slow down now, but it was like crazy and yeah,
and I feel bad because you know, we only can
make you know, hopefully, maybe you guys one day through

(34:07):
on the East Coast. Please, I'd love to have you
come eat some pizza.

Speaker 8 (34:10):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
You know, we're we're right between Scranton and Allentown.

Speaker 8 (34:15):
Okay, but.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
You know, we only have a set amount of pizza.
It's one hundred percent pre order. And I, you know,
we announced we used to be open every Friday, but
since COVID and stuff, it's only myself, my mom and
my sister. Really, we have some friends with help every
now and then, but.

Speaker 7 (34:33):
Nothing, you know, cater and catery is number one. No,
not anymore, Okay.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
Yeah, no, it's it's really the pizza. We do cater
with pizza. We have a mobile wood fired oven that
we cater with. You know. We we do a few
jobs and then a few festivals a year. But with
two teenage daughters, it's it's tough. I have to manage everything.
But but I felt bad because you know, we we posted,
you know, I kind of went after covid. I kind

(35:01):
of would post the menu every week to our website
or to you know, all the social platforms, and you know,
that's how we do it. And I literally I think
I posted on Tuesday night. That would have been busy
because it was good Friday anyway.

Speaker 7 (35:20):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
I think we had fifty two messages in like twenty
seven minutes.

Speaker 7 (35:26):
Oh my wow. Wow, So that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
You're so bad for people that can't get pizza.

Speaker 8 (35:32):
Of it, you know, right, I no, especially for the holidays.

Speaker 7 (35:36):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
Well, you know the one thing that I won't do though,
I won't I'm not going to sit there and crank
out what we're not comfortable to because I don't want
to put on a product that I don't want to
put out either.

Speaker 8 (35:46):
But I'm proud of correct. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (35:48):
Well, there's a lot of passion and all all your
makers out there. So you're listening to the Let's Sign
Out show right here on AM ten fifty and one
O six point five FM, the stations that leave no
listener behind. We're talking to the it's a Maker of
the Year Tony Sarah Melli and he's from is it
you want to mention the count name.

Speaker 7 (36:08):
Pennsylvania? Say it again one more.

Speaker 8 (36:12):
Time, neschone. Okay, it looks more difficult than it is.

Speaker 4 (36:20):
That's not bad.

Speaker 7 (36:21):
Okay. Now, are you still planning to go next year
and again compete?

Speaker 4 (36:27):
Well, I can't compete anymore.

Speaker 7 (36:29):
Oh really, once you.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
Win, once you become pizza Maker of the Year. From
what I understand, the only thing you can compete in
is if I think you're invited to the best of
the best where they take past pizza Makers of the
Year and do the same type of like secret ingredient thing.
I think, I think I don't know everything about that,
but honestly, I just want to go and enjoy the

(36:52):
next book.

Speaker 7 (36:53):
Yeah, I agree, we did.

Speaker 9 (36:54):
We had Joe Carlucci Carlucci on last week and very humble,
like you, very humble, and you know both you have
such great stories and it's the backstories that I love.
I mean, the passion that you guys have just amazes me.
And none of you have egos. I mean Tony the
other Tony Giovanni, he has no ego. I've known him
for fifteen years now. His head is so small. I mean,

(37:16):
he'll help anybody at any time. I mean, I've never
seen a more giving person. You know, he's incredible, and
you know it makes celebrities look good. Let's put that
way goes. He doesn't consider himself with celebrity, but he
also has lifted the whole pizza industry to a whole
different level. Before you just you know, call it in
to get it, eat it, boom, that's it. Now you've

(37:37):
got a lot of choices and a lot of small restaurants.
I you know, what advice do you have for them.
In terms of what going to the expo means.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
There's no question that I think, you know, two things
go into the expo for me. Even if you just
want to walk around and not take any seminars or
anything stuff, which you should, but it opens you up
to a whole new world of ingredients that maybe you're

(38:07):
not familiar with. You know, it allows you to connect
with people like myself or Derek if you're having a
problem with your dough or whatever. It really I think
it allows you to be a better pizza maker, a
better cook. And then, as far as competing, the one
thing that competing did for me, and even though I

(38:30):
probably don't know how much more i'll compete that I
can't compete there, but it's one thousand percent made me
a better pizza maker just trying to make a dough,
you know, my goal. Obviously, my family's pizza stays the same,
but every other pizza that we have on the menu
or we serve, they're different. They're my pieces, and there

(38:53):
are pieces that in my mind would be competition worthy
because I've tried to just create them in a way.
I approached every pizza the same way that I would
if I was entering into a competition, right, So you
know that that made me much made me a much
better pizza maker.

Speaker 7 (39:12):
Yeah, it's pretty amazing going. And yeah, yeah, because.

Speaker 9 (39:15):
Besides just all the competition, you've got a four hundred
plus vendors. I mean, every kind of cheese, there is,
every kind of olives and olive oil and good everything.
You name it, they got it. But it's the camaraderie.
It's the camaraderie. Even the vendors, I mean, they're so nice,
they remember you from year after year, and I can't
say that about other food you know, I've been to

(39:36):
Cisco food shows. I've been to all kinds of different
food shows. I've never seen anything like it.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
The only one that I heard, and I've never been
to them either, I've only been to Peze Tex Boats.
The only show that I've heard has similar vibe at
least as far as the vendors and everything is the
n r A show in Chicago. I heard.

Speaker 7 (39:57):
That's a great show. That's a big one, that's huge,
that's a big boy. Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 9 (40:02):
In terms of your favorite pizzas outside of your own,
what's your face, You have a favorite.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
Favorite style?

Speaker 7 (40:09):
Yeah, favorite style.

Speaker 4 (40:11):
Super think Cross New York style is my absolute favorite pizza.

Speaker 8 (40:15):
Okay, And what's your topping? If you have to pick
something you like? No topping?

Speaker 9 (40:19):
Oh no, cheese cheese, Tony, I love you. I never
met you. But as a judge this year they brought
us this. It was a new category cheese pizza. Tried
judging ten fifteen cheese pizzas, slices. Everything up to me.
If it was burnt, that's like yeah, this color. You know,

(40:39):
everything tasted the same, but the same cheeses, the same everything.
And that was probably, I think the hardest piece I've
ever judged my life.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
So I will give you one toping combination that I
do love on pizza, and that is either by themselves
or with crumbled sausage. But have we have peppers here?
Long hot Italian peppers. I don't know if you've ever
had them or not. No, I know they're hard to
get on the West Coast, but they're they're they're long

(41:09):
hot Italian peppers. We stuffed them with you know, sausage
and stuff, but I love roasting them with olive oil,
salt and garlic, chopping them up and putting them on
a pizza. Now, that's the topping that I love.

Speaker 8 (41:21):
That sounds really good.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Actually, well, well, you know, it's funny because we call
them the Russian Roulette of peppers because you could eat
thirty of them and they just have this beautiful, nice
heat and then you get one all, you know. So
I was always hesitant to use them in a competition
because you know, if you get a judge who doesn't

(41:43):
like warmer stuff that I always feared that that would
hurt me.

Speaker 11 (41:46):
You know.

Speaker 7 (41:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (41:47):
The one that I find Pepperd's, I really I really
like them diced up. And one of the things that
I've noticed as a judging all the pizzas is there's
a lot of people have spent so much time on
the ingredients. The ingredients don't always match, they don't always
compliment each other. They're always always too too sweet or
too acidic or too tangy. But very few have you know,

(42:11):
both tangy and sweet. And that's what makes to.

Speaker 8 (42:14):
Me, and I think the balance of flavors.

Speaker 7 (42:16):
Balance of flavors. Yeah, and unfortunately a lot of them don't.

Speaker 9 (42:20):
And they look beautiful, don't get me wrong, but it's like,
come on, but then again, is that if people like
that then give it to give people what they like,
you know, and it's hard being objective, but you have
to be objective to be a judge.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
Yeah, I'll tell you for me. I you know, I
kind of approached that. I you know, once my go
was where I wanted it, I went on to toppings
and I would literally get you know, dam with white
bread and just put different topping combinations on as if
it was a finished pizza and you know, just to

(42:53):
get the toppings the way I want. You know, I
even got towards the end of the last couple of weeks,
I even a cardboard cut out of you know, the
nine cuts of pizza that I was going to have
on there. And I was literally like wasting regota and
you know, just putting stuff on there so it would
look right.

Speaker 11 (43:10):
And I really went I really went.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
Above them beyond. But I do agree. I think I
think it's you know, I some of the toppings. You
really got to do your homework and understand the the
balance of what they're going to do together, you know
what I mean. I agree one thousand percent.

Speaker 9 (43:30):
Sometimes they have ingredients that you have no flavor, like
to me, white button mushrooms, that's the one that got
Derek angry at me beginning. But it has no flavor really,
you know, unless you get unless your wollstone or you know,
mix them with a garlic with garlic oil or butter
or something.

Speaker 8 (43:43):
We've seen the bone marrow one. It looks amazing, but
it's like, well, there's really doesn't add flavor to the pizza.

Speaker 9 (43:51):
Last year they had one where there was three big
bone marrows that it looked like the Titanic, you know,
but there was no flavor whatsoever. It was it was
like eating with a cold and uh, you know, to
me is like this is the best they have and
they put so much effort into the presentation. Then they
do the flavors and it's all about flavors. I mean presentation.
Don't get me wrong, it matters. I mean if it's

(44:12):
just thrown on, that can throw you off, you know,
in terms of scoring, you want everything to be equal.
And to me, the best part is when everything you
take a bite and it has all the ingredients on it,
you can taste it. You know, that's what makes it good.
But you know, I again, everyone's different. I admire that.
I'm not one to judge that. You know, it's just
you know, it's just it's hard. In our judging forms.

(44:35):
It's all laid out and that's what they asked for.
And I wish the competitors look at the forms so
they follow it better.

Speaker 8 (44:41):
Are they available for all available?

Speaker 4 (44:43):
Yeah? So yeah, my thing was too like I always
and I didn't know if it ever hurt me. I
don't think obviously didn't. But I always wanted to make
a pizza that I could sell. M you know, you
make something that's wild and crazy, that's fantastic, and you win,

(45:05):
that's great. Yeah, but then you got a how are
you going to make you know, fifty sixty seventy of
these or whatever the number is to serve for your
customers and can they afford it? Because it's going to
pay you have, you know. So that that's what I
always strive.

Speaker 7 (45:19):
To do, And that's smart.

Speaker 9 (45:20):
That's the way it should be, you know, it's it's
you know, everyone's available to everybody. We had one two
years ago, I think was it had tons of gold
on top. It looked fantastic, leaf like ninety five dollars
for the pizza and like, you know, West Hollywood, they
can get away with it, probably, but.

Speaker 8 (45:34):
It had no flavor. I mean I tasted it. It
was like no flavor, goat leafing doesn't add anything but
looks and I'm like, well that looks good, but it
doesn't really taste that great, you know. I had no nothing,
no zing, no nothing. It's like, well, that's so disappointing,
you know, like it it's not realistic in the real world.
That's not what pizzas are for you, for everyday people

(45:56):
to enjoy. Right, So that's not an every day but.

Speaker 9 (45:58):
Ideally you want you want to look great and taste great.
Sometimes it looks great and there's no flavor whatsoever, or
it doesn't look that good, and then your first impression
is like okay, and then you eat it, it's like wow,
you know. But if it goes together, that's a winner.
So well again, I've never had a pleasure of meeting you,
but I remember seeing your face. I was standing right
near you, and I mean, I've never seen a more

(46:20):
happier people around you. I mean, ione's hugging each other
and just jumping on you and everything, and it was
really neat. It was really neat to see there, if
you know, see that. And I wish a lot of
luck and I just you know, just I love the
story and don't you know, continue it. But you got
to get a frozen and sending one to me. I
mean you can buy me off very easily. Just getting

(46:42):
just kidding. But next year, I definitely want to know
meet you easy will be there too, so we'll continue
success and anything you want to tell her, anything you
want to tell our audience.

Speaker 12 (46:54):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (46:57):
Any last words you'd like to tell the audience.

Speaker 4 (47:01):
No, just you know, I'm grateful. I'm still on cloud
nine from this, but I'm just grateful to you know,
to you guys to be on the show and really
continue talking and you know, elevating our craft too. Hopefully
spreads to the masses and we get great pizza everywhere, right, and.

Speaker 9 (47:19):
That's why you're on. So we'll continue success. Big hug
and go get them.

Speaker 8 (47:25):
Congratulations.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Speaker 9 (47:28):
Hopefully your wife's not angry at us talking to you
on a Saturday.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
No good, I think I have like a two week past.

Speaker 9 (47:35):
Oh good, okay again, and you can watch us later
on or hear it on our podcast. Just go to
the station, it'll be on it in a couple of
hours you'll hear it.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
Awesome, Thank you guys.

Speaker 7 (47:45):
Okay, take care, see you next here.

Speaker 8 (47:47):
Happy by bye bye bye.

Speaker 7 (47:50):
What any guy?

Speaker 9 (47:51):
You know, you hear stories like this and it's just
amazing how they start from like beginning just family. But
it wasn't like I didn't want to make pizzas. And
that's a great where he does it part time now
and it's still success.

Speaker 8 (48:03):
And part of it, he's carrying on his family tradition, right,
making you once a week like his family did, but
then also still fueling that passion and making it better
and elevating it and bringing in more you know, more
technique and art to it, right, I mean, so that's
really neat. Uh, you know, it's so neat to hear that,

(48:25):
you know, like somebody like Tony Jamoni that's actually you know,
bringing up the pizza you know industry and then bring
all these people along with him, you know, being the
mentor you know, being the support. And you know there's
pictures if you look online, you can see Tony, Sarah

(48:46):
with Tony, yeah yeah, Sarah Meli with Tony on when
he won. You know, so you know, everybody's so happy
for each other. I mean it brought tears to your
eyes doing the and you know during the petition when
they announced all the winners, and it was so exciting
to see, you know how everybody so happy for each other.

(49:07):
You know, really was supported each other along that journey
and want to make it better for.

Speaker 9 (49:12):
I remember twelve thirteen years ago when I first started
the first one I ever went to the team from Italy.
They came out like strutting, like they all look like
Bowling League all, you know, just strutting, you all skinny
guys and everything, and like we're the best and uh
and they all lost and I think one person won,
but they were so angry at losing. And here it's like, yeah,

(49:34):
you're disappointed, but you you really congratulate the people.

Speaker 7 (49:37):
Everyone came up to him afterwards.

Speaker 8 (49:39):
Yeah. And you know what, it's exciting because if you're
there at the pizza Expo and it's on for industry only,
but you see all the different countries. I mean, pizza
is is it's like universal language now, right, I mean everybody.

Speaker 9 (49:53):
Vietnam, we saw little carts with pizza, you know, I
mean all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 8 (49:57):
You're right, yeah, it's a it's you know, it's a
blank late and everybody put their regional ingredients, what they
grew up on. And that's so exciting to see it
because it really does, you know, immerse the entire it
brings it, I think, the world closer together. We all
have a commonality, you know, to make pizza a food
that's affordable number one and something that everybody can enjoy, right,

(50:21):
So it's really amazing. And I love the fact that
you know, everybody's trying to make the dough better. And
you know, once you start eating the good pizzas with
the dough, I mean, the dough does make a huge difference.
You learn to really appreciate it. Like now levit a
pizza is kind of you know, the dough is kind
of like yeah, you know, and it's like, oh, that's
so disappointing because you really develop that appreciation for that

(50:46):
science on the effort and then the back end that
you don't see, you know, as a pizza consumer, you
don't see all that work that put into it, all
that love and all that you know, effort that they
fermented the dough for two three days, you know, to
make that pizza taste that great, Right, So.

Speaker 9 (51:05):
Yeah, they go out their way and yeah, it just
it amazes me. Now there's some great pizzas in the Empire.
I mean Chicago Postles. There are deep dish pizza with
just spinach and I get extra garlict and cheese and
sauce is tremendous.

Speaker 7 (51:18):
That's one of my favorites.

Speaker 9 (51:19):
They make a Catchatry Pizza the same thing, catch a
deep dish that was very good and it went.

Speaker 8 (51:24):
To Citrone and they had it was really good. So,
I mean, you know, there are budding pizzas that they're
very good. They're elevating the flavor profile, they're elevating the dough,
you know, like how it's being made. So it's it's
really coming along and I'm really exciting to see that.

Speaker 9 (51:45):
And so again, if you know of any really really
good pizza places, please let me know on either Facebook
or Instagram, or you can email me at mister Foodie,
Mr food E F O d I E. The number
one at outlook dot com. More happy to both of
us who go out there and try it. We're open
obviously in our area. We want to go to more.

(52:07):
But you know, there's a lot of pizza places that
say it's one thing and it's really not so that's
anything that throws it off. There's a lot of wannabes,
but they don't take the effort to make it better.
The other thing again, just remind you we are going
to be working on our grub club and in the
next two weeks we should have it all planned wise
and our first one is going to be well, I'll

(52:29):
leave it.

Speaker 7 (52:30):
You have to listen to the show.

Speaker 8 (52:32):
Just stay tuned the more information coming along. There's a
lot of work on the back end trying to make
this happen. So stay tuned because we're very excited to
share this with you and hopefully one of these days
and here's the thought, maybe we can get a grub
club of awesome pizzas.

Speaker 7 (52:50):
We did that once. We Yeah, we'll have to.

Speaker 8 (52:53):
Do that like very good artis and pizza so that
you know, people can really appreciate the art of pizza.

Speaker 7 (53:00):
We'll work on that.

Speaker 8 (53:01):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 9 (53:02):
Again, welcome to thanks for listening to the show. We're
on every Saturday from four to five Let's Sign Out Show,
and again I'm available on Facebook. Just look for Alan
dot Borgan or you can go Let's Sign Out Show and.

Speaker 8 (53:16):
Or Instagram at Alan dot Organ. Good ones you can
reach him and uh yeah, any suggestions of new places
we should try, new restaurants. It's around that you think
we have to be there to test out, you know,
whatever dish it is. Let us know. We'd definitely welcome
to open suggestions.

Speaker 9 (53:33):
Exactly so until next week. Critic Almorgan and is he
bussy beat?

Speaker 7 (53:38):
Everybody feed.

Speaker 6 (53:40):
You?

Speaker 1 (53:40):
I don't want to debate.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
What six point five f M man k c A
A ten fifty am.

Speaker 13 (53:54):
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(54:20):
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Speaker 15 (57:49):
For over seventy five years, the Marine Toys for Tots
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(58:12):
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Speaker 5 (58:22):
Community Matters. The San Berdandino County Museum hosts a series
of art exhibitions throughout you. Doctor K. C. Lee, Curator
of Art and exhibition shows details of the current exhibition
Expectations a better World through Art, music and respect.

Speaker 6 (58:38):
This is a community show in partnership with the Inland
Empire Latino Art Association and it is a celebration of
Hispanic art and culture. So this year we have chosen
Expectations as a theme, and it is both looking inward
what expectations do we have for ourselves, but also outward.
What expectations do we bring out and approach the world,

(58:58):
and it has a broader applic to what we call arts.
So here in the physical space we have an array
of materials. We have paintings and photography, but we also
have sculpture in media, and this is also brought into
the written words, so we have speaking events with an author.
We will also have performances both musical and physical, so

(59:20):
we will be having a yoga program here. All of
it is related to the exhibition expectations, So it is
how individuals sort of embody and think about expectations and
are bringing that expectations to the public.

Speaker 5 (59:33):
The museum received several submissions, making it difficult to narrow
down the intake process.

Speaker 6 (59:38):
Well, it was a very exciting process. This was my
first time doing any show like this, especially working with
the County Museum, and the turnout was spectacular. I've been
told this is the biggest turnout that they've ever received.
We received applications from over eighty artists, and in order
to continue the spirit of community, we try to make
sure that everyone had an opportunity to purchase picipate. So

(01:00:01):
what that looks like is that while we had well
over one hundred submissions of artwork. We had to narrow
it down and make difficult choices, but I think the
end result