June 25, 2025 • 24 mins
Spoiler alert. We discuss the ideas characterized in Downton Abbey as it relates to libertarian principles. Centralized power restricts personal freedoms and choices represented in the series by aristocracy and the middle class workers.
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Bluesky
All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
Clip Used:
"He Was More a Philosopher Than a Thief"
By: @DowntonAbbey
Follow Us:
YouTube
Twitter
Facebook
Bluesky
All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
Follow Us:
YouTube
Bluesky
All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
Clip Used:
"He Was More a Philosopher Than a Thief"
By: @DowntonAbbey
Follow Us:
YouTube
Bluesky
All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to the podcast Coffee with Mike and Julie
Libertarians Talk Psychology. This is current commentary from an NBA
businessman and a PhD psychologist.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
So I've been watching Downton Abbey. It's really an interesting show.
Prime puts on so many commercials they really interrupt it badly,
but at least you don't have to click skip like
you do with YouTube, so they just put the commercial on.
But anyway, it's a fascinating story and it takes place
in England. Downton Abbey is an aristocratic land. It's part
(00:44):
of the landed aristocracy in London in England, and it's
cast in a peculiar interesting way with stories from the
servants and stories from the aristocrats and then the mixture
those two.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So it really.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Highlights class differences. And it takes place in a time period.
It starts in nineteen twelve, with the key trigger to
the story is the heir to the Grantham estate dies
in the Titanic sinking.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
And so I think it lasted for six seasons and
it's pretty good. It's five stars, won some different awards.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
The thing I want to comment on is that I
would never watch that show, except that if I wanted
to be with you, I needed to watch a show.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And once I watched, it's like Star Trek.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
It was Star Trek, small Vill, well, Smallville, I probably
would have.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Gotten you watched Smallville, Batman.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
There are several shows that I never.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Watch, Star Trek mostly mostly.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
But the point is I sit here and watch it
so I can be in the room with you, and
I get kind of hooked.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And well, it's well done, soap opera it is.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
But these elites of these snobs that I normally stay
away from. You know, it's kind of fascinating to see
the snobs in the working class interacting and all that.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, well, let me say that you'll watch stuff that
I don't even want to stay in the room with.
Verse is not the case. You'll watch stuff so crappy
and so dark. Well, I can't stand to watch it.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
If it has murdering rape, you're not interested.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm not going to watch murdering rape and gore. I mean,
I feel bad enough these days in my old age
without having to dump dark side junk on it. Anyway,
Doubt Mabbe is an award winning TV show.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
And their accents are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, the accents are great, and the characters are fantastic,
and the dialogue Maggie Smith has some one liners that
will just keep you in entertained forever. And so does
Jim Carter, the butler, the actor that plays the butler.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Even though I don't like the music on its own,
but the music with the video is really pretty good.
I mean, how they can get you in the mood
just from the music.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I know you don't think, so why do you go
to the music? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But anyway, so watching down Mabby and so the storyline
through the Seasons involves the changing time period in the
early nineteen hundreds where the landed aristocracy was losing its
grip on the economy and industrialization was happening. Oh and
(03:46):
you know, they introduced the telephone in the story, and
they expand their use electricity. And of course the producers
of the story, oh my god, they do great. On
the clothing. I mean, women watch anything, or we can
watch women dressed up. The clothing is spectacular, the cars
are spectacular, and it's seemed a high clear castle in Berkshire.
(04:11):
The castle itself is beautiful and strange, so it's got
a lot of entertaining value. But for libertarians, it's a
wonderful story about the changing time period where people gain
more freedom of expression.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Well, and I don't think will resolve this today, but
I have always been curious about this transition from the
aristocracy to free markets. Once free markets and capitalism started
taking off, I mean, everybody's quality of life there skyrocketing,
and I've always been a little curious why the idea
(04:48):
of free markets didn't take off before the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Before the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Yeah, I don't know. We don't need to try to
answer that question today, but I do find this you're
talking about fascinating because that is of interest to me,
This transition to individual liberty and the people learning the
trade and becoming successful all on their own without having
to be born into it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, it brings up that concept to which I was
thinking about. There's a particular story. I have a clip
that doesn't really pertain to the story of Gwen, but
Gwen is a storyline character arc that highlights the issue
for libertarians. She's a housemaid in the big house, and
(05:34):
so people are very comfortable. They have some people that
are very comfortable with their role as being a housemaid
or a lady's maid or footman. And then some people
are not.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Comfortable with it.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
They're not happy.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
They're not happy there, you know. They're not happy. They
want more, they want choice, they want freedom. So I
want to explore the story of Gwynn a little bit,
and I'll so then want to explore the Meyers Briggs.
Which the whole point of that is that the Meyers
Briggs is a personality tests. It shows that people are
(06:11):
different personalities. And there's a concept in industrial psychology called
job match. So when people are free, the bottom line is,
when people are free to match themselves to the job,
their productivity goes way up. But when they're not free,
when they're shoehorned into a job that doesn't fit for them,
their productivity is low. In fact, we were talking about
(06:33):
this the other day, that the predictive validity of IQ
intelligence is matched by the predictive validity of job match.
When you match your job and you will enjoy what
you're matched to, just automatically. That makes intuitive sense.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
And would you say to say that differently. IQ is
one measure and job match is another evaluation or measure,
and they have equal weight as far as being valid.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
They have equal weight for predictive validity, meaning they both
predict productivity equally. So if you put that into practical terms,
if you're not very intelligent, you can do quite well.
Still if you're matched to your job. If you're match
to your job and your intelligent, probably like Elon musk is,
(07:24):
then your contribution can be really, really high.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
That's pretty powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So in doubt and abbe, you see people that are struggling.
In fact, there's a scene where Gwynn is talking to Sybil.
I think she says, you're raised in an environment where
you can do anything you want. We're not raised in
that environment. We only have a few options. We can
be a farm hand or we can be a housemaid.
(07:51):
So I'm talking about this as though the audience has
seen it, because they're spoilers.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
These are all spoilers.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
I don't think that matters.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, it's been out for decade plus. So there was
one more key point I wanted to make, so libertarians
would promote freedom in the sense of diversity and self destiny.
Free choice choice destiny, which requires freedom of information. You know,
(08:20):
you have to have information in order to have free choice,
So it's free speech, free information, all the things in
the constitution.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Here we go back to the importance of free speech.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Free information flow, open information flow is important for everything else.
But then I also wanted to make one last key
point before this clip, and then we'll go back to
Gwenn's story and kind of dig into libertarian values and
doubt and mabbe. The other thing is that the centralization
of power in England, you know, the land owners. If
(08:54):
you were a landowner, you were part of the aristocracy.
You had all the opp and it centralized resources so
that the lower class had less opportunity. That's a formula
for conflict when you have enough people that are free
to choose. Do you hear Milton Friedman's comment, When you
(09:17):
have people that are free to choose, the need for
competition and conflict gets channeled into productive mechanisms rather than
channeled into violence and aggression or cheating. So, as libertarians,
the solution to all conflict is, let's make a deal.
Let's free you up to profit from your efforts and
(09:40):
profit from your ingenuity, profit from your ideas.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So free to choose, as a Milton Freedman phrase, And
let's make a deal. As Donald Trump Prase.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, and they're both libertarian in nature.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Well, I don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Why are you smiling?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Well, I don't think Donald Trump is necessarily a libertarian,
but a lot of what he pushes is libertarian.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, socialism is not libertarianism, and it's not entrepreneurship, right,
so I Ms Pat Moore said one time these Down
Navvy is full of oneliners. You'll miss it if you're
not careful the first time you watch it. When you
watch it, she says, can you get Carl Marx to
(10:27):
finish the salad? You know how good socialism is just
the cook.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
In the house.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Okay, So that's just a rough overview. And we've then
dig into Gwin's story after we play Lord Grantham. There's
a clip that's kind of cute. He was more of
a philosopher than a thief. Down Navvy, Lord Grantham is
convalescing and dead after his ulcer burst.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And this is later.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
In the seasons where they've opened the house to tours
as a charity donation to the hospital, and so little
boy winds up in his bedroom. He's upstairs convalescing and
the tours are going on in the downstairs part of
the castle, and a little boy makes his way up
to Lord Grantham and they have a discussion, and of
(11:15):
course that's a no no. Part of what's so clear
in the story is that there's a class distinction, and
never the twin shall meet.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
You wouldn't believe what happened over there in front of everyone.
Speaker 6 (11:28):
Oh try me, my son's wife, whom I had treated
like a daughter too, Like that she should connive at night.
Humidiation should revelus. I am cast into the steady the buffs.
Cora doesn't control this any more than you. You've had
different opinions, but neither of you made it happen. Mister
(11:51):
Chamberlain had spoken he was never going to say a word.
The truth is, Mama, officialdom doesn't care what we think anymore.
Our influence is finished. You can say that you, whose
very life has been self you know dealing with emergencies,
won't be affected. Do be logical? I am sick and
tired of logic. If I could choose between principle and logic,
(12:14):
I take principle every time.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Just tell Cora I do.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Not wish to see her face until I'm used to
having a traitor in the family.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Why she is such tizzy.
Speaker 6 (12:33):
Well, you know mothers, they get terribly wrought up about things.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Mine does too. May I ask what you're doing here?
I couldn't see you else with me, Mom? Dad? Do
they know where you are?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
No?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Why is it so big here? Else? I'm not sure really,
it's the way they used to manage things. Why not
buy somewhere comfy? You must have enough money maybe, but
you know how it is. You like what you're used to?
(13:15):
Why are you in here?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Wouldn't you like to know?
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Chicky rush Scot.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
Let him go know how I'm done? Be sure, my lord?
Should we shake out of his pockets? I don't think so.
He was more of a philosopher than the thief.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Okay, well, now that I sought the second time, I
could understand what they were saying a little better. I
do have a problem with these British accents.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
We have a problem with hearing also.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
But that was funny. That was a funny clip you
out there?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well, it was funny.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
And Maggie I don't know what the first part of
it has to do with the thing, but Maggie Smith
is so funny her delivery.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
She's all pissed off about.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Something where she was treated.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
And the little boy wanders into the lord's room and says,
what's she in a tizzy about? And he says, I
don't know. She mothers are in a tizzy. It is
true that when I watch something the first time, I'm
watching the plot and I'm not paying attention to the
nuances of the dialogue. When I watch it a second
and third time, it unfolds more for me.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Oh, and in this show, the dialogue is really important.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Dialogue is very intelligent.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
And they don't do standard American dialogue either. I mean,
it's got a little twist to it, so you've got
to pay attention.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, okay, So to analyze Gwen's story, I want to
talk about Gwen's story and then the relevance to libertarian ideals.
So Gwenn is a housemaid in the Big House and
she is unhappy with being a housemaid. She wants more,
so she secretly buys a typewriter and secretly goes to
(14:59):
type in secretarial classes. She's discovered and it's almost a
shameful thing because she's threatening some of the other people,
like why aren't you happy with this station? You know,
why aren't you happy with your lot? But so there's
conflict around the change, but she's.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
The other dissatisfied working class were threatened by her desire
to do something else.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, do something else. That's this was a story unfolds.
The staging of the story is there's a downstairs and upstairs.
Upstairs are the aristocrats, the kitchen is the downstairs servants.
So she's downstairs and the servants, and she's being confronted
for having a typewriter, and she looks like she feels ashamed.
(15:52):
Almost I haven't done anything against the law. I haven't
done anything illegal, but everybody questions it. But of course
it's okay to do so she gets to do it. Well,
she can't get a job as a secretary, and winds
up with one of the sisters, Sybil, helping her get
a job, and she winds up getting a job as
(16:14):
a secretary. And then later on in the story, seasons later,
I think it's the final season, she winds up coming
back to the house as the wife of a successful
businessman oh wow, and eating with these family in the
dining room. So that causes Thomas, who's a troublemaker footman
(16:39):
Butler under Butler, he's the foil he causes trouble wherever
he goes. He exposes her. Now, she had told her
husband that she were for being low born, exposed her
as being a housemaid.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Before, and she hadn't told her husband all this.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
No, she told her husband she was a housemaid, she
just didn't say where. Oh he's not ashamed of it
at all. He knows she worked her way up. So
the story is, you know, everybody goes you were her
housemate here at Dalton Abbey and she's being treated as
a guest, a respected guests because they own successful company.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, so it juxtaposes the industrial revolution with the aristocracy.
The story takes place between nineteen twelve and nineteen twenty five.
They cover World War One, but they don't start World
War two.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
But that's a fascinating little storyline. Woma, Yeah, storyline there.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
One of the ladies ask her, how did you start?
She says, I started as a secretary at a telephone company.
One of the ladies asked, how did it work. The
husband said, I really broke through because of the telephone,
And she said, I really broke through because of the
telephone too. So she went from working at the telephone
company to working in government, and that's where she met
(17:56):
her husband, and then she had some kind of idea.
They don't make it clear to me, some kind of
idea that she brought to her husband's attention, and together
they formed a business that became extremely successful. As far
as I can tell. That's how it goes, and they
go over it quickly. But it's a libertarian storyline, fairytale
(18:17):
of a housemaid breaking free. But she did need Lady
Sybyl's help to get the contacts. The story is very
cool because these aristocrats are very benevolent to the servants.
In fact, they let something slide that I wouldn't have
let slide, but they helped the servants and they try
(18:38):
to cope with changing times as best they can. So
it's a story that highlights libertarian ideals. And in order
for libertarian ideals to work, you have to have business.
You have to have the free market. The entrepreneur's spirit
is the substitute for competition and aggression. Human beings are
(19:01):
bound to compete.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Well, okay, but I'd like to make the distinction that
the free market is competition. But what's your point is,
if you have any kind of central control, that you
have aggression and cheating, and that's what you're objecting to.
I'm pointing out you're not really objecting the competition because
that is.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Oh no, that's ingrained in the wood.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
That's there, no matter what.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's there, no matter what. So how you channel it.
When you have centralized control, you have less freedom, and
so you're going to have more unsavory type competition. Maybe
I should make the distinction between appropriate competition and inappropriate competition.
The inappropriate competition meaning cheating, violence, aggression, crime. You're going
(19:50):
to have all of that if you don't give the
individual all the resources that they need, that they require
to have a fair chain. You know, even some people
will cheat even when they're given a fair chance.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
There's plenty of cheating going on. Yeah, even in a
free market, there's plenty of cheating that goes on.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Well's and that's another topic is how do you reduce
the amount of cheating. And that's another topic that is
helped by free speech and detection systems.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
So you need the detection systems, but.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
People will cheat more if they feel they're treated unfairly.
Do you know that statistic with taxes when people feel
the government is fair, they tend to cheat less on
their taxes, and when they tend then the government is
unfair they cheat more on their taxes. That's a long
ago fact that I can't prove, but makes sense, you know,
(20:46):
because the fraud triangle says that one of the legs
of the fraud triangle is you have to be able
to justify your cheating. You know you're guilty, but if
you can justify it, you can give yourself the right
to do so.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
You mentioned the fraud triangle, and that is some sort
of justification for cheating.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, the fraud triangle is that eighty percent of the
people would cheat or commit fraud if they have the need,
if they can justify it, and if they have the opportunity.
But if they don't have those three things, they won't cheat.
That's just a side of the little fact. Okay, So
(21:25):
Doubt and Abbey was very interesting. It's full of interesting stories.
Gwynn's not the only story, but she's the most obvious
libertarian story. Several of the downstairs workers, the service people
want to get out. Some of the service people love
what they do and don't want to get out. Yeah,
(21:45):
Carlson the butler he loves his job, and he loves
the class distinction, and he's very very traditional. And there
are others that they're thankful for their place. They love
being in service to the aristocrats. They're very comfortable with it,
and they're not seeking anything. And that's because of the
(22:07):
Myers Briggs personality types. People differ, and no one can
explain why one person would be happy in a job
and another person wouldn't be except for this concept of
personality and job, Matt. It's important that people have the
freedom to choose, but they might choose something that to
another person go, why would you ever do that? I
(22:28):
would hate to do that. So people not only need
an open market of exchanging resources and opportunity, they also
need freedom to express their own individuality. And those just
are libertarian values and they're all over doubt and abbey
the story. You can find it in on Prime.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Oh Amazon Prime, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, well no, people
won't have any problem finding down.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Well.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's very popular. It gets a lot of awards. They
have it chocked full of commercials. I mean it is
commercial city. Prime wants you to pay the privilege of
watching stuff. Then now they give you the option of
paying even more to get rid of the commercials. They
first gave it without commercials, then they added commercials, and
(23:17):
now you can pay to get rid of the commercials.
They get you coming and going.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
When we were children, the way commercial television work was
about every thirty minutes, you'd get a maybe a two
or three minute commercial. So you got used to being
able to jump up out of your chair go get
the ashes, and you had a good feel for when
the commercial is going to be over with the the
the way they do it now they trap you. Yeah,
(23:43):
they tell you how long it's going to be, but
you don't have a good feel, almost feel if you
have to stay in the room so you don't miss anything.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
They manipulate us one way or another.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Some of the commercials are better though than they used
to be. Well, yeah, so I don't mind watching them
hat YouTube, though I hate hate the way they trap
you in the commercial.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
You have to hold the controller and skip.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
It's like they require your attention to get out of
the commercial.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Well, it's an evolving world when it comes to these commercials.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Okay, so that's my story and I'm sticking with it. Okay, Well,
the importance of down n Abbey, libertarian ideals and the
mers Briggs okay break
You're listening to the podcast Coffee with Mike and Julie
Libertarians Talk Psychology. This is current commentary from an NBA
businessman and a PhD psychologist.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
So I've been watching Downton Abbey. It's really an interesting show.
Prime puts on so many commercials they really interrupt it badly,
but at least you don't have to click skip like
you do with YouTube, so they just put the commercial on.
But anyway, it's a fascinating story and it takes place
in England. Downton Abbey is an aristocratic land. It's part
(00:44):
of the landed aristocracy in London in England, and it's
cast in a peculiar interesting way with stories from the
servants and stories from the aristocrats and then the mixture
those two.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So it really.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Highlights class differences. And it takes place in a time period.
It starts in nineteen twelve, with the key trigger to
the story is the heir to the Grantham estate dies
in the Titanic sinking.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
And so I think it lasted for six seasons and
it's pretty good. It's five stars, won some different awards.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
The thing I want to comment on is that I
would never watch that show, except that if I wanted
to be with you, I needed to watch a show.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And once I watched, it's like Star Trek.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
It was Star Trek, small Vill, well, Smallville, I probably
would have.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Gotten you watched Smallville, Batman.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
There are several shows that I never.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Watch, Star Trek mostly mostly.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
But the point is I sit here and watch it
so I can be in the room with you, and
I get kind of hooked.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And well, it's well done, soap opera it is.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
But these elites of these snobs that I normally stay
away from. You know, it's kind of fascinating to see
the snobs in the working class interacting and all that.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, well, let me say that you'll watch stuff that
I don't even want to stay in the room with.
Verse is not the case. You'll watch stuff so crappy
and so dark. Well, I can't stand to watch it.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
If it has murdering rape, you're not interested.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm not going to watch murdering rape and gore. I mean,
I feel bad enough these days in my old age
without having to dump dark side junk on it. Anyway,
Doubt Mabbe is an award winning TV show.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
And their accents are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, the accents are great, and the characters are fantastic,
and the dialogue Maggie Smith has some one liners that
will just keep you in entertained forever. And so does
Jim Carter, the butler, the actor that plays the butler.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Even though I don't like the music on its own,
but the music with the video is really pretty good.
I mean, how they can get you in the mood
just from the music.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I know you don't think, so why do you go
to the music? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But anyway, so watching down Mabby and so the storyline
through the Seasons involves the changing time period in the
early nineteen hundreds where the landed aristocracy was losing its
grip on the economy and industrialization was happening. Oh and
(03:46):
you know, they introduced the telephone in the story, and
they expand their use electricity. And of course the producers
of the story, oh my god, they do great. On
the clothing. I mean, women watch anything, or we can
watch women dressed up. The clothing is spectacular, the cars
are spectacular, and it's seemed a high clear castle in Berkshire.
(04:11):
The castle itself is beautiful and strange, so it's got
a lot of entertaining value. But for libertarians, it's a
wonderful story about the changing time period where people gain
more freedom of expression.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Well, and I don't think will resolve this today, but
I have always been curious about this transition from the
aristocracy to free markets. Once free markets and capitalism started
taking off, I mean, everybody's quality of life there skyrocketing,
and I've always been a little curious why the idea
(04:48):
of free markets didn't take off before the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Before the Industrial Revolution.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Yeah, I don't know. We don't need to try to
answer that question today, but I do find this you're
talking about fascinating because that is of interest to me,
This transition to individual liberty and the people learning the
trade and becoming successful all on their own without having
to be born into it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, it brings up that concept to which I was
thinking about. There's a particular story. I have a clip
that doesn't really pertain to the story of Gwen, but
Gwen is a storyline character arc that highlights the issue
for libertarians. She's a housemaid in the big house, and
(05:34):
so people are very comfortable. They have some people that
are very comfortable with their role as being a housemaid
or a lady's maid or footman. And then some people
are not.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Comfortable with it.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
They're not happy.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
They're not happy there, you know. They're not happy. They
want more, they want choice, they want freedom. So I
want to explore the story of Gwynn a little bit,
and I'll so then want to explore the Meyers Briggs.
Which the whole point of that is that the Meyers
Briggs is a personality tests. It shows that people are
(06:11):
different personalities. And there's a concept in industrial psychology called
job match. So when people are free, the bottom line is,
when people are free to match themselves to the job,
their productivity goes way up. But when they're not free,
when they're shoehorned into a job that doesn't fit for them,
their productivity is low. In fact, we were talking about
(06:33):
this the other day, that the predictive validity of IQ
intelligence is matched by the predictive validity of job match.
When you match your job and you will enjoy what
you're matched to, just automatically. That makes intuitive sense.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
And would you say to say that differently. IQ is
one measure and job match is another evaluation or measure,
and they have equal weight as far as being valid.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
They have equal weight for predictive validity, meaning they both
predict productivity equally. So if you put that into practical terms,
if you're not very intelligent, you can do quite well.
Still if you're matched to your job. If you're match
to your job and your intelligent, probably like Elon musk is,
(07:24):
then your contribution can be really, really high.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
That's pretty powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So in doubt and abbe, you see people that are struggling.
In fact, there's a scene where Gwynn is talking to Sybil.
I think she says, you're raised in an environment where
you can do anything you want. We're not raised in
that environment. We only have a few options. We can
be a farm hand or we can be a housemaid.
(07:51):
So I'm talking about this as though the audience has
seen it, because they're spoilers.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
These are all spoilers.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
I don't think that matters.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, it's been out for decade plus. So there was
one more key point I wanted to make, so libertarians
would promote freedom in the sense of diversity and self destiny.
Free choice choice destiny, which requires freedom of information. You know,
(08:20):
you have to have information in order to have free choice,
So it's free speech, free information, all the things in
the constitution.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Here we go back to the importance of free speech.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Free information flow, open information flow is important for everything else.
But then I also wanted to make one last key
point before this clip, and then we'll go back to
Gwenn's story and kind of dig into libertarian values and
doubt and mabbe. The other thing is that the centralization
of power in England, you know, the land owners. If
(08:54):
you were a landowner, you were part of the aristocracy.
You had all the opp and it centralized resources so
that the lower class had less opportunity. That's a formula
for conflict when you have enough people that are free
to choose. Do you hear Milton Friedman's comment, When you
(09:17):
have people that are free to choose, the need for
competition and conflict gets channeled into productive mechanisms rather than
channeled into violence and aggression or cheating. So, as libertarians,
the solution to all conflict is, let's make a deal.
Let's free you up to profit from your efforts and
(09:40):
profit from your ingenuity, profit from your ideas.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So free to choose, as a Milton Freedman phrase, And
let's make a deal. As Donald Trump Prase.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, and they're both libertarian in nature.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Well, I don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Why are you smiling?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Well, I don't think Donald Trump is necessarily a libertarian,
but a lot of what he pushes is libertarian.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Well, socialism is not libertarianism, and it's not entrepreneurship, right,
so I Ms Pat Moore said one time these Down
Navvy is full of oneliners. You'll miss it if you're
not careful the first time you watch it. When you
watch it, she says, can you get Carl Marx to
(10:27):
finish the salad? You know how good socialism is just
the cook.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
In the house.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Okay, So that's just a rough overview. And we've then
dig into Gwin's story after we play Lord Grantham. There's
a clip that's kind of cute. He was more of
a philosopher than a thief. Down Navvy, Lord Grantham is
convalescing and dead after his ulcer burst.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And this is later.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
In the seasons where they've opened the house to tours
as a charity donation to the hospital, and so little
boy winds up in his bedroom. He's upstairs convalescing and
the tours are going on in the downstairs part of
the castle, and a little boy makes his way up
to Lord Grantham and they have a discussion, and of
(11:15):
course that's a no no. Part of what's so clear
in the story is that there's a class distinction, and
never the twin shall meet.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
You wouldn't believe what happened over there in front of everyone.
Speaker 6 (11:28):
Oh try me, my son's wife, whom I had treated
like a daughter too, Like that she should connive at night.
Humidiation should revelus. I am cast into the steady the buffs.
Cora doesn't control this any more than you. You've had
different opinions, but neither of you made it happen. Mister
(11:51):
Chamberlain had spoken he was never going to say a word.
The truth is, Mama, officialdom doesn't care what we think anymore.
Our influence is finished. You can say that you, whose
very life has been self you know dealing with emergencies,
won't be affected. Do be logical? I am sick and
tired of logic. If I could choose between principle and logic,
(12:14):
I take principle every time.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Just tell Cora I do.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Not wish to see her face until I'm used to
having a traitor in the family.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Why she is such tizzy.
Speaker 6 (12:33):
Well, you know mothers, they get terribly wrought up about things.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Mine does too. May I ask what you're doing here?
I couldn't see you else with me, Mom? Dad? Do
they know where you are?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
No?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Why is it so big here? Else? I'm not sure really,
it's the way they used to manage things. Why not
buy somewhere comfy? You must have enough money maybe, but
you know how it is. You like what you're used to?
(13:15):
Why are you in here?
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Wouldn't you like to know?
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Chicky rush Scot.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
Let him go know how I'm done? Be sure, my lord?
Should we shake out of his pockets? I don't think so.
He was more of a philosopher than the thief.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Okay, well, now that I sought the second time, I
could understand what they were saying a little better. I
do have a problem with these British accents.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
We have a problem with hearing also.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
But that was funny. That was a funny clip you
out there?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well, it was funny.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
And Maggie I don't know what the first part of
it has to do with the thing, but Maggie Smith
is so funny her delivery.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
She's all pissed off about.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Something where she was treated.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
And the little boy wanders into the lord's room and says,
what's she in a tizzy about? And he says, I
don't know. She mothers are in a tizzy. It is
true that when I watch something the first time, I'm
watching the plot and I'm not paying attention to the
nuances of the dialogue. When I watch it a second
and third time, it unfolds more for me.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
Oh, and in this show, the dialogue is really important.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Dialogue is very intelligent.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
And they don't do standard American dialogue either. I mean,
it's got a little twist to it, so you've got
to pay attention.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, okay, So to analyze Gwen's story, I want to
talk about Gwen's story and then the relevance to libertarian ideals.
So Gwenn is a housemaid in the Big House and
she is unhappy with being a housemaid. She wants more,
so she secretly buys a typewriter and secretly goes to
(14:59):
type in secretarial classes. She's discovered and it's almost a
shameful thing because she's threatening some of the other people,
like why aren't you happy with this station? You know,
why aren't you happy with your lot? But so there's
conflict around the change, but she's.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
The other dissatisfied working class were threatened by her desire
to do something else.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, do something else. That's this was a story unfolds.
The staging of the story is there's a downstairs and upstairs.
Upstairs are the aristocrats, the kitchen is the downstairs servants.
So she's downstairs and the servants, and she's being confronted
for having a typewriter, and she looks like she feels ashamed.
(15:52):
Almost I haven't done anything against the law. I haven't
done anything illegal, but everybody questions it. But of course
it's okay to do so she gets to do it. Well,
she can't get a job as a secretary, and winds
up with one of the sisters, Sybil, helping her get
a job, and she winds up getting a job as
(16:14):
a secretary. And then later on in the story, seasons later,
I think it's the final season, she winds up coming
back to the house as the wife of a successful
businessman oh wow, and eating with these family in the
dining room. So that causes Thomas, who's a troublemaker footman
(16:39):
Butler under Butler, he's the foil he causes trouble wherever
he goes. He exposes her. Now, she had told her
husband that she were for being low born, exposed her
as being a housemaid.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Before, and she hadn't told her husband all this.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
No, she told her husband she was a housemaid, she
just didn't say where. Oh he's not ashamed of it
at all. He knows she worked her way up. So
the story is, you know, everybody goes you were her
housemate here at Dalton Abbey and she's being treated as
a guest, a respected guests because they own successful company.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, so it juxtaposes the industrial revolution with the aristocracy.
The story takes place between nineteen twelve and nineteen twenty five.
They cover World War One, but they don't start World
War two.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
But that's a fascinating little storyline. Woma, Yeah, storyline there.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
One of the ladies ask her, how did you start?
She says, I started as a secretary at a telephone company.
One of the ladies asked, how did it work. The
husband said, I really broke through because of the telephone,
And she said, I really broke through because of the
telephone too. So she went from working at the telephone
company to working in government, and that's where she met
(17:56):
her husband, and then she had some kind of idea.
They don't make it clear to me, some kind of
idea that she brought to her husband's attention, and together
they formed a business that became extremely successful. As far
as I can tell. That's how it goes, and they
go over it quickly. But it's a libertarian storyline, fairytale
(18:17):
of a housemaid breaking free. But she did need Lady
Sybyl's help to get the contacts. The story is very
cool because these aristocrats are very benevolent to the servants.
In fact, they let something slide that I wouldn't have
let slide, but they helped the servants and they try
(18:38):
to cope with changing times as best they can. So
it's a story that highlights libertarian ideals. And in order
for libertarian ideals to work, you have to have business.
You have to have the free market. The entrepreneur's spirit
is the substitute for competition and aggression. Human beings are
(19:01):
bound to compete.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Well, okay, but I'd like to make the distinction that
the free market is competition. But what's your point is,
if you have any kind of central control, that you
have aggression and cheating, and that's what you're objecting to.
I'm pointing out you're not really objecting the competition because
that is.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Oh no, that's ingrained in the wood.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
That's there, no matter what.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's there, no matter what. So how you channel it.
When you have centralized control, you have less freedom, and
so you're going to have more unsavory type competition. Maybe
I should make the distinction between appropriate competition and inappropriate competition.
The inappropriate competition meaning cheating, violence, aggression, crime. You're going
(19:50):
to have all of that if you don't give the
individual all the resources that they need, that they require
to have a fair chain. You know, even some people
will cheat even when they're given a fair chance.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
There's plenty of cheating going on. Yeah, even in a
free market, there's plenty of cheating that goes on.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Well's and that's another topic is how do you reduce
the amount of cheating. And that's another topic that is
helped by free speech and detection systems.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
So you need the detection systems, but.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
People will cheat more if they feel they're treated unfairly.
Do you know that statistic with taxes when people feel
the government is fair, they tend to cheat less on
their taxes, and when they tend then the government is
unfair they cheat more on their taxes. That's a long
ago fact that I can't prove, but makes sense, you know,
(20:46):
because the fraud triangle says that one of the legs
of the fraud triangle is you have to be able
to justify your cheating. You know you're guilty, but if
you can justify it, you can give yourself the right
to do so.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
You mentioned the fraud triangle, and that is some sort
of justification for cheating.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, the fraud triangle is that eighty percent of the
people would cheat or commit fraud if they have the need,
if they can justify it, and if they have the opportunity.
But if they don't have those three things, they won't cheat.
That's just a side of the little fact. Okay, So
(21:25):
Doubt and Abbey was very interesting. It's full of interesting stories.
Gwynn's not the only story, but she's the most obvious
libertarian story. Several of the downstairs workers, the service people
want to get out. Some of the service people love
what they do and don't want to get out. Yeah,
(21:45):
Carlson the butler he loves his job, and he loves
the class distinction, and he's very very traditional. And there
are others that they're thankful for their place. They love
being in service to the aristocrats. They're very comfortable with it,
and they're not seeking anything. And that's because of the
(22:07):
Myers Briggs personality types. People differ, and no one can
explain why one person would be happy in a job
and another person wouldn't be except for this concept of
personality and job, Matt. It's important that people have the
freedom to choose, but they might choose something that to
another person go, why would you ever do that? I
(22:28):
would hate to do that. So people not only need
an open market of exchanging resources and opportunity, they also
need freedom to express their own individuality. And those just
are libertarian values and they're all over doubt and abbey
the story. You can find it in on Prime.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Oh Amazon Prime, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, well no, people
won't have any problem finding down.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Well.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's very popular. It gets a lot of awards. They
have it chocked full of commercials. I mean it is
commercial city. Prime wants you to pay the privilege of
watching stuff. Then now they give you the option of
paying even more to get rid of the commercials. They
first gave it without commercials, then they added commercials, and
(23:17):
now you can pay to get rid of the commercials.
They get you coming and going.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
When we were children, the way commercial television work was
about every thirty minutes, you'd get a maybe a two
or three minute commercial. So you got used to being
able to jump up out of your chair go get
the ashes, and you had a good feel for when
the commercial is going to be over with the the
the way they do it now they trap you. Yeah,
(23:43):
they tell you how long it's going to be, but
you don't have a good feel, almost feel if you
have to stay in the room so you don't miss anything.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
They manipulate us one way or another.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Some of the commercials are better though than they used
to be. Well, yeah, so I don't mind watching them
hat YouTube, though I hate hate the way they trap
you in the commercial.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
You have to hold the controller and skip.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
It's like they require your attention to get out of
the commercial.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Well, it's an evolving world when it comes to these commercials.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Okay, so that's my story and I'm sticking with it. Okay, Well,
the importance of down n Abbey, libertarian ideals and the
mers Briggs okay break
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