August 20, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of Libertarians Talk Psychology, we dive into the concept of the group unconscious—the unseen psychological forces that drive collective behavior, ideology, and political movements. How do mass beliefs form? Why do groups act irrationally? And how can individuals break free from destructive collective thinking? We explore these questions from a libertarian perspective, examining how psychology and politics intersect in today’s culture.
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All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
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All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heat is the rebroadcast of an earlier episode.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You're listening to the podcast Coffee with Mike and Julie
Libertarians Talk Psychology. This is current commentary from an NBA
businessman and a PhD psychologist. Look to m.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
So, I want to talk about and just brainstorm the
unconscious and psychologists have been studying the unconscious. Now there
are two elements of the unconscious. One is the individual
unconscious and the other is the collective unconscious. So those
do go together. They do, in my view, fluctuate together.
(00:40):
Probably you know, Freud is the one we attribute to
discovering the individual unconscious. So you could say it's just
everything that the person is not aware of goes into
the unconscious, and sometimes other people know this. There was
something called the Joe Harry window that we used in
the sixties. I can't say I was in the sixties,
(01:01):
I was still in high school. We used in the
seventies and eighties personal growth and organizational life that kind
of acknowledge that the individual. Information can exist in the
individual that the individual doesn't know about, that other people
do know about, and then information can exist where no
one knows about it, where the collective doesn't know about it,
(01:23):
and the individuals the kind of the deep unconscious or
the hidden unconscious. So I have a couple of thoughts
about the issue. So psychologist's goal in organizations is to
keep all that unconscious mess from messing up decisions and
harming outcomes, quality decisions and judgments. And it is a
(01:46):
big job because you have the personal unconscious. Oh you
also have hidden agendas. So for the individual, you have
the known self for what they call the open self,
but you also have the hidden self. So that's what
the person understands about themselves. They know it about themselves,
but they hide it from others. So you have that area.
Now that's not unconscious, that's just deception. Our privacy, our confidentiality,
(02:09):
which is not deception. So you get these categories.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Okay, So just to restate it, the individual unconscious are
those things the person doesn't know about themselves, and those
things can crop up because you're hiding it from yourself.
You can end up making decisions that are bad for
your life. Yeah, yeah, okay, And as a therapist, that
is a major task is to help the person understand
(02:37):
themselves or they make good decisions in their life.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So then there are hidden agendas, which can almost do
a similar thing. You can have a hidden agenda, I guess,
to the extent that you allow that to be unconscious.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
It can well, you can you can forget something and
make it go, and you can repress it or suppress
it and it'll go into the unconscious. But a hidden
agenda is something the person knows about. They know it,
I mean by definition.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, yeah, But then I'd like for you to tell
me what the group or the collective unconscious.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Is well, And I think that is what's most important
in this day and age, is the collective unconscious, because
it seems to have actually, to me, it seems to
have the most energy of all the segments that we're
looking at. So let's just put it in a two
by two table. The individuals can be psychologically aware and insightful,
(03:36):
or they can be unconscious. Well, a culture and a
society can be psychologically aware or it can be unconscious.
And we seem to be very unconscious right now.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And what would be an example of that.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, I'm gonna just say the thing that pops into
my mind is the court system. The court system seems
to have a lot of motivated reasoning. The justice system
and the court system. So let's just call that the
justice system. Let's just use the example of Bill Barr
saying there was no election fraud. Okay, so before he
(04:10):
could even address it, before it could be investigated, he said,
there's no evidence of fraud, which is it's a logical problem.
It's a logical problem to say there is no evidence
of something. At the very most, you can say we
have not received evidence. But I think that was wrong too,
by the way. But so for the justice system to
(04:32):
get their logical process wrong, that wrong makes me wonder,
what else are you getting wrong if you're getting the
you know, the logic mixed up. And so I saw
this in the DOJ's prosecuting of the psychologists. I saw
them get the process mixed up.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Now, your friend, the public defender.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Public defender. Now, maybe this has been this way for
a long time, but I think what we're talking about
is what we see over the last four years.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And it sounds like you're saying, anytime we see where
a bureaucracy is invested in protecting itself over the good
or the goals of them, or its system.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
The goals, the processed goals of a system. Yeah, Yeah,
let me explain that because that brings up Okay, so
a group. We know this from embedded group theory that
a group will primarily always go toward self interest. A group,
just like an individual will unless it has certain protections
against it, unless you put braces on.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Like a constitution or something.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, like a constitution. That's a good way of saying it.
So a group becomes overboundaried, meaning they become insular. And
the term that's used a lot is group think, but
it's really very complicated. You have to have collusion between
people's unconscious minds to make a group go to group think.
Which groups do just go that direction unless they're a
(06:00):
leader with integrity and knowledge. And I'm beginning to believe
that you also have to have a certain amount of knowledge, skills,
and abilities in the followers or they'll just follow in
a blindless, mindless way. They'll just follow.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
It's low risk, low energy to just follow.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, there you have it. So you get this group
that has a boundary, and I'm speaking of that theoretically
where the information and energy comes in and out of
a living system. So the boundary of a living system
is a protective device but also a kind of an
organ system for the group. And so as the group
(06:40):
becomes more and more overboundaried, it becomes more likely to
go unconscious.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
And an example of that might be don't listen to
that information. That's a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Well, there are a lot of mechanisms for how this works.
There's a lot of research. Is fascinating research. But yes,
that's correct. That's one mechanism. There are a lot of
mechanisms for how a group becomes unconscious. Well, in our
mythology and in our history, the one group, you know,
Nazi Germany, went totally unconscious. Any group that's committing genocide
(07:13):
is probably unconscious.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, because it is not right it is to try
to wipe out another group of people.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Murder is not okay for human beings murdering other people.
So you can kind of judge as an observer who's
unconscious and who isn't, and which groups are unconscious and
which groups aren't.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So, and I'm sorry I have to anytime we mentioned
Nazi Germany, I have to include the Russian the Soviet
Union in China because they were even worse.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Well, I think that's a good thing because and Jordan
Peterson says that academics don't mention the Marxists.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
They mentioned the fascists. There's no difference between the communists
and the fascist It's all about group unconsciousness. It's like,
what flavor is your group unconsciousness? Well, there's there's when
the when the tender minded is lead it. That's communism,
and then there's when the tough minded is lead it,
and that's Nazi Germany. It doesn't matter who leads a
(08:13):
group on consciousness, it's group unconsciousness.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
And there's group on consciousness. When it comes to the
United States and voting, where fifty one percent decide what
the other forty nine percent have to do. I mean
that's group unconscious too.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Well, you mean talking about the tyranny of the majority.
That's actually not unconscious by definition, it's not, but it's
just power plays.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
It's still centralized. Palt You bring up.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
The point that what keeps fifty one percent of the
population from robbing a forty nine percent by making a
law that says you know you're going to be my slave?
Whatever is group awareness?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
There you go, that's what your whole topic is about.
If you can make the unconscious conscious, then you can
there's control to the problem.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah. Well, and also when you demand that sixty six
and well two thirds of the people have to vote
a certain way, then you have a protection against the
tyranny of the majority. So back to the unconscious. So
we have lots of evidence right now that our community
is unconscious.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Unconscious.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Well, that's what you called it, the collective unconscious. I mean,
now we're in a wake up period for some of us.
I mean I feel so one group says the woke culture,
and that's about racism, right. I don't really look into
the woke culture meaning, but I think that's the racism.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, So, but Donald Trump woke up a bunch of people.
And here's how he woke everybody up. We're astounded by
the attacks, the blowback he got. Because he's a change agent.
He obviously went in and changed a bunch of stuff.
Because we see that because Biden's in and he's changing
(10:02):
back everything. It's just kind of like going down a
list and whatever Trump did, he's changing it back. So
it's mindless. By the way, what's going on.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I find this interesting and kind of connected. Biden has
been referring to Trump as the other guy. Won't say
he's a previous president. Again, it's the whole thing about,
don't listen to that guy. Nothing to see here. You
know that never happened the other guy, not the forty
or whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
He is so in that metaphor of whatever. I don't
know where he's getting that from, But come on, man,
the other guy, how do you know he can't remember
his name?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
It isn't that he doesn't remember his name.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
You sure?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Well the article that I read was saying that he
doesn't want to give Trump any kind of traction. Yeah,
they doesn't want to say his name, doesn't want to
say his title, doesn't want to say he was a
previous play.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, that would be smart, because I was reading this
journalist Greenwall, I think, and he was yeah, and he
was writing a story about the so called news story
that the policeman was killed at January sixth, which is false.
The policeman was killed with the consequence of being hit
(11:21):
over the head with a fire englisher is completely false.
And they're trying to look for what happened to the gentleman.
And it looks like you might have been had a
toxic reaction or an allergic reaction to something also, did
you know that there were two police Capitol policemen that
killed themselves after this committed suicide? Oh yeah, I mean
(11:43):
I hadn't heard that either. By the way, there was
only one person to die in January sixth, and that
was the woman that from California. Okay, so as far
as I can tell from the reading, one person actually died,
and one person was trampled in something, and then three
people had heart attacks, and then the policeman died and
they're still not sure why. But he didn't die from
(12:05):
my head injury. But anyway, my point that I can
get back to is Greenwall is reporting this, and he's
reporting all the fake news, and that's bad cognitive psychology.
So he reports, he reports and reports and reports all
the fake news that say the myth that the policeman died,
and you're just repeating the myth, and so you're stamping
(12:26):
that in to the automatic unconscious. Whether or not you're
arguing with it or not is irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Oh, isn't that interesting?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know, that's repetition. You can't fight misinformation that way.
There's a specific way you fight misinformation, because the mind
stucks in misinformation if it's presented in a.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Certain way, So do you fight.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I'm not going to go into that today because
I don't think we have time. But I want to
go back into the collective. And I've been thinking a
lot about this. But what we've got our religions going
on right now, so kind of, as I call it,
the collective religion, the left religion is racism or anti
it's anti racist. Everything they say and do is about race.
(13:13):
It's their religion. It's like their reason for living. It's
the reason for their political party. I don't know what
else they are selling now. It's a good thing to
have equality and not discrimination. That's a good thing. But
do they have anything else in their religion that they're
selling to us.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I think they're a little weak on that right now.
I mean, it's been so easy for them to just
hate Trump for five years.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
They're struggling with meaning right now.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Now that Trump's calling, They've got to make a transition.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So there's like with some thing something they're doing. Okay,
so the Blue religion is struggling, But that's an important cause.
But liberty for all is an important cause, and liberty
for black people is an important cause, or brown people
or whatever, but it's like, I don't see anything else
their offer. I guess the unconscious on the right is
(14:10):
pretty dangerous by the way, also because it's more like
Trump is right. I'm not thinking about anything else. Trump
can do no wrong. So we've become the religion of Trump.
And I have to admit I'm kind of like guilty
of some of that because here's what Trump offers. It's like,
oh my god, the swamp is horrible. I'm looking at
(14:34):
the data for the swamp. I'm looking at the evidence,
and I'm freaked out by the swamp. And so who
fought the swamp? Anybody in the last thirty years swamp
fought the swamp Trump, So we're all in the religion
of Well, at least somebody's fighting the swamp, and that's Trump,
and can anybody else fight it? Even imagine that anybody
(14:55):
else can fight it? I mean, the guy's a phenomenally
unusual historical character, and like, if you ask me who
else could replace Trump? I mean this is why I
was like, I kind of worry about him, But who
the hell is like Trump? Nobody? So we've got a
messiah savior thing going on on the and the right
(15:16):
is kind of going unconscious now too.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Ron Paul was saying it, and people like me thought
he was a nut.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I thought wrong, Ron Paul was a nut. Yeah wait,
you thought Ron Paul was a nut?
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
You know when he was running for PRESI when he
was running for presidic was talking about the Federal Reserve.
No one else was talking about the federal reserve. He
was talking about the wars and nobody else was.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
He was talking about the swamp.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
He was talking about the swamp.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Well, that's really an important thought because libertarians, I mean,
we need to come back around to what the unconscious
is about Libertarians. Now, I've been looking at this. We're
an odd temperament type. We're in the minority as a
temperament type. I bet you if I tested libertarians, I
bet you my. I mean, I'm I'm totally confident that
(16:05):
libertarians test out as the theoretical temperament type. Out of
the four temperament types. They're going to test out the
ones that see the long view. I mean, I'm absolutely
sure the founders were libertarian temperament types, and that is
a minority of the people. We don't have a good
influence on the collective are the collective unconscious, and that's
(16:29):
a process problem. Libertarians need to address the fact that
they have no impact in bringing conscious awareness to the others.
Eighty eighty five percent. I mean, I need to look
at that, but it's thirty eight and thirty eight percent.
Guardians are thirty eight percent, artisans are thirty eight percent,
(16:49):
and then there's the nfs are I think twelve percent.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
So i'd say, maybe you're referring to personality.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Personality at temp actually temperament, not personality. So and we
can talk about that another time. But so the issue
is how do you wake up people to the libertarian philosophy,
which is good for everyone. It's good for everyone.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I know.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm very convinced that there's a right way to run
a country, and it has to be a libertarian. It's
not perfect, but it's as close as you're going to
get to the right way.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I would say consistent with this topic, because you've been
talking about Freud and psychology and making the unconscious conscious,
I say that libertarianism is trying to accomplish the same
thing in the economics world that they're trying to make
the unconscious conscious. They're trying to help the other eighty
five percent see what's true.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, I mean that's the overlap between economics, which is
social exchange, psychology, and evolutionary instincts human nature. It's all
of the same bucket.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Point is to try to open up the idea of
the collective unconscious and what we libertarians need to be
doing to try to bring it into the conscious awareness.
And I think the opportunity exists that Trump was close
enough to a libertarian. He started out as a liberal,
and then I think because of his opportunistic style, he
(18:24):
balanced some of the management problems between the liberal worldview
and the conservative worldview. He managed what I think the
liberal are the progressive worldview. They don't see is that
Trump was kind of like a middle ground person. A
lot of their policies he agreed with.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well, I mean that thing about being anti war, anti war,
isn't that a liberal?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, used to be liberal anti war and they had
to paint him as racist. He's not racist, so he's
actually merit based liberty. They never accepted that he didn't
care what skin color you are as long as you
do the job. Well, I mean that's so clear, and
it's like he's opportunistic business entrepreneur, achievement oriented, very achievements,
(19:16):
but they had to paint him as racist because that
was their selling point. Okay, So the point today is
that libertarians need to take a beeline on unconsciousness and
we need to look at that and develop interventions for that.
And the fact that I can be in a community
of psychologists where I'm talking about freedom of speech and
(19:40):
I'm getting objections to freedom of speech and support for
censorship stuns me. I mean that has happened to me recently,
and it just like it kind of depressed me, because like,
there's no hope for these folks. And these are psychologists
who are trained in academia. They are all kind of
(20:00):
halfway academics anyway. I mean, they're marching to the tune
of the Left.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Party, the government, university.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Government, and universities, and that they could not understand that
all censorship and I want to be absolute about censorship.
What was that example we had the other day? Oh yeah,
your dogs got out and we were both heartbroken and
you were distraught, and it occurred to me like you
could have a GPS on those dogs and you could
(20:28):
go locate them. And I didn't say it because I
didn't want to upset you. And then after we found
your dogs, I started talking about it and realized, and
then you gave me information that they have the chip
in them from the VET, and then we decided that
could have been activated. We might could have called the
VET to see if can that be activated?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And does it do more than just tell you who
the dog is? Is there a way for it to
actually help you locate them and.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
You locate it with a GPS for a fee or whatever?
Point being that, because I censored myself and my ideas,
I saved your emotions, but I also may have kept
us both from a solution to the problem, a creative solution.
So that's just how important information is to your point.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
But I am so grateful you didn't. Yeah, because I
was upset about those I.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Knew you're upset, and I was I was like, and I.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Was upset because I had not been responsible enough and
taken care of it.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Well, I knew that you were suffering crazy, But so hindsight,
if we'd have brought that up, you'd have felt bad.
But what if we'd have been able to track the dogs?
Would that have been worth it to you?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I'll call the vet today and find out. I'll be
more agreeable to your argument if it ends up being
true that they can turn on something and you can
locate the dogs.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Well, yeah, that's hindsight though. Okay, so yeah, if I
knew that they could, but see I didn't know they
had a chip in them. You had that information, and
I came up with the information about boy, what we
need is a GPS locator in those dogs, which I
know they sell. I think our grandchildren have things with
(22:13):
GPS locators. I think people are using it all over
the place. But the point, the final point is.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
The fitness trackers. Fitness trackers have a GPS locator. If
I buy a fitness tracker for our grandson, his mother
will be able to know where he is.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well, she already has a tracker on him. Okay, I'm
pretty sure she's done that. Well, okay, that's off the point.
But the final point is that people avoid information and
that censorship. And yeah, he was like, don't tell me
that because it'll upset me. But you know it's the
other ways, like tough en up, you get upset, And
so to protect ourselves from information is self censorship. Yeah,
(22:54):
I mean that's the whole point of psychotherapy. Often is
a person is either consciously avoiding information are unconsciously avoiding information.
That's pretty much eighty percent of psychotherapy. It's all you know,
there's something called serious mental disorder. Okay, you put that
over here in one bucket. Everything else is pretty much
(23:17):
the psychotherapy of avoiding information. Are failing to desensitize yourself.
So it's information flow. Individual problem solving and group problem
solving is devastated by the unconscious. So that's where we
are in this country right now, and that's where libertarians are.
Libertarians should what's that call when you target something by
(23:39):
painting a red mark on it? What's that called painting?
It's called painting a target, isn't it. We should paint
a target. We should paint the target of the collective unconscious.
And libertarians are the ones to do it because we
have the theoretical and we have the tools, the ideas
that we can use as tools to make the unconscious conscious.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
M hm
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Hm
Heat is the rebroadcast of an earlier episode.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You're listening to the podcast Coffee with Mike and Julie
Libertarians Talk Psychology. This is current commentary from an NBA
businessman and a PhD psychologist. Look to m.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
So, I want to talk about and just brainstorm the
unconscious and psychologists have been studying the unconscious. Now there
are two elements of the unconscious. One is the individual
unconscious and the other is the collective unconscious. So those
do go together. They do, in my view, fluctuate together.
(00:40):
Probably you know, Freud is the one we attribute to
discovering the individual unconscious. So you could say it's just
everything that the person is not aware of goes into
the unconscious, and sometimes other people know this. There was
something called the Joe Harry window that we used in
the sixties. I can't say I was in the sixties,
(01:01):
I was still in high school. We used in the
seventies and eighties personal growth and organizational life that kind
of acknowledge that the individual. Information can exist in the
individual that the individual doesn't know about, that other people
do know about, and then information can exist where no
one knows about it, where the collective doesn't know about it,
(01:23):
and the individuals the kind of the deep unconscious or
the hidden unconscious. So I have a couple of thoughts
about the issue. So psychologist's goal in organizations is to
keep all that unconscious mess from messing up decisions and
harming outcomes, quality decisions and judgments. And it is a
(01:46):
big job because you have the personal unconscious. Oh you
also have hidden agendas. So for the individual, you have
the known self for what they call the open self,
but you also have the hidden self. So that's what
the person understands about themselves. They know it about themselves,
but they hide it from others. So you have that area.
Now that's not unconscious, that's just deception. Our privacy, our confidentiality,
(02:09):
which is not deception. So you get these categories.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Okay, So just to restate it, the individual unconscious are
those things the person doesn't know about themselves, and those
things can crop up because you're hiding it from yourself.
You can end up making decisions that are bad for
your life. Yeah, yeah, okay, And as a therapist, that
is a major task is to help the person understand
(02:37):
themselves or they make good decisions in their life.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
So then there are hidden agendas, which can almost do
a similar thing. You can have a hidden agenda, I guess,
to the extent that you allow that to be unconscious.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
It can well, you can you can forget something and
make it go, and you can repress it or suppress
it and it'll go into the unconscious. But a hidden
agenda is something the person knows about. They know it,
I mean by definition.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah, yeah, But then I'd like for you to tell
me what the group or the collective unconscious.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Is well, And I think that is what's most important
in this day and age, is the collective unconscious, because
it seems to have actually, to me, it seems to
have the most energy of all the segments that we're
looking at. So let's just put it in a two
by two table. The individuals can be psychologically aware and insightful,
(03:36):
or they can be unconscious. Well, a culture and a
society can be psychologically aware or it can be unconscious.
And we seem to be very unconscious right now.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And what would be an example of that.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, I'm gonna just say the thing that pops into
my mind is the court system. The court system seems
to have a lot of motivated reasoning. The justice system
and the court system. So let's just call that the
justice system. Let's just use the example of Bill Barr
saying there was no election fraud. Okay, so before he
(04:10):
could even address it, before it could be investigated, he said,
there's no evidence of fraud, which is it's a logical problem.
It's a logical problem to say there is no evidence
of something. At the very most, you can say we
have not received evidence. But I think that was wrong too,
by the way. But so for the justice system to
(04:32):
get their logical process wrong, that wrong makes me wonder,
what else are you getting wrong if you're getting the
you know, the logic mixed up. And so I saw
this in the DOJ's prosecuting of the psychologists. I saw
them get the process mixed up.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Now, your friend, the public defender.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Public defender. Now, maybe this has been this way for
a long time, but I think what we're talking about
is what we see over the last four years.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And it sounds like you're saying, anytime we see where
a bureaucracy is invested in protecting itself over the good
or the goals of them, or its system.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
The goals, the processed goals of a system. Yeah, Yeah,
let me explain that because that brings up Okay, so
a group. We know this from embedded group theory that
a group will primarily always go toward self interest. A group,
just like an individual will unless it has certain protections
against it, unless you put braces on.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Like a constitution or something.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, like a constitution. That's a good way of saying it.
So a group becomes overboundaried, meaning they become insular. And
the term that's used a lot is group think, but
it's really very complicated. You have to have collusion between
people's unconscious minds to make a group go to group think.
Which groups do just go that direction unless they're a
(06:00):
leader with integrity and knowledge. And I'm beginning to believe
that you also have to have a certain amount of knowledge, skills,
and abilities in the followers or they'll just follow in
a blindless, mindless way. They'll just follow.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
It's low risk, low energy to just follow.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, there you have it. So you get this group
that has a boundary, and I'm speaking of that theoretically
where the information and energy comes in and out of
a living system. So the boundary of a living system
is a protective device but also a kind of an
organ system for the group. And so as the group
(06:40):
becomes more and more overboundaried, it becomes more likely to
go unconscious.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
And an example of that might be don't listen to
that information. That's a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Well, there are a lot of mechanisms for how this works.
There's a lot of research. Is fascinating research. But yes,
that's correct. That's one mechanism. There are a lot of
mechanisms for how a group becomes unconscious. Well, in our
mythology and in our history, the one group, you know,
Nazi Germany, went totally unconscious. Any group that's committing genocide
(07:13):
is probably unconscious.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, because it is not right it is to try
to wipe out another group of people.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Murder is not okay for human beings murdering other people.
So you can kind of judge as an observer who's
unconscious and who isn't, and which groups are unconscious and
which groups aren't.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So, and I'm sorry I have to anytime we mentioned
Nazi Germany, I have to include the Russian the Soviet
Union in China because they were even worse.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Well, I think that's a good thing because and Jordan
Peterson says that academics don't mention the Marxists.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
They mentioned the fascists. There's no difference between the communists
and the fascist It's all about group unconsciousness. It's like,
what flavor is your group unconsciousness? Well, there's there's when
the when the tender minded is lead it. That's communism,
and then there's when the tough minded is lead it,
and that's Nazi Germany. It doesn't matter who leads a
(08:13):
group on consciousness, it's group unconsciousness.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
And there's group on consciousness. When it comes to the
United States and voting, where fifty one percent decide what
the other forty nine percent have to do. I mean
that's group unconscious too.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Well, you mean talking about the tyranny of the majority.
That's actually not unconscious by definition, it's not, but it's
just power plays.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
It's still centralized. Palt You bring up.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
The point that what keeps fifty one percent of the
population from robbing a forty nine percent by making a
law that says you know you're going to be my slave?
Whatever is group awareness?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
There you go, that's what your whole topic is about.
If you can make the unconscious conscious, then you can
there's control to the problem.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah. Well, and also when you demand that sixty six
and well two thirds of the people have to vote
a certain way, then you have a protection against the
tyranny of the majority. So back to the unconscious. So
we have lots of evidence right now that our community
is unconscious.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Unconscious.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Well, that's what you called it, the collective unconscious. I mean,
now we're in a wake up period for some of us.
I mean I feel so one group says the woke culture,
and that's about racism, right. I don't really look into
the woke culture meaning, but I think that's the racism.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, So, but Donald Trump woke up a bunch of people.
And here's how he woke everybody up. We're astounded by
the attacks, the blowback he got. Because he's a change agent.
He obviously went in and changed a bunch of stuff.
Because we see that because Biden's in and he's changing
(10:02):
back everything. It's just kind of like going down a
list and whatever Trump did, he's changing it back. So
it's mindless. By the way, what's going on.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I find this interesting and kind of connected. Biden has
been referring to Trump as the other guy. Won't say
he's a previous president. Again, it's the whole thing about,
don't listen to that guy. Nothing to see here. You
know that never happened the other guy, not the forty
or whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
He is so in that metaphor of whatever. I don't
know where he's getting that from, But come on, man,
the other guy, how do you know he can't remember
his name?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
It isn't that he doesn't remember his name.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
You sure?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Well the article that I read was saying that he
doesn't want to give Trump any kind of traction. Yeah,
they doesn't want to say his name, doesn't want to
say his title, doesn't want to say he was a
previous play.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, that would be smart, because I was reading this
journalist Greenwall, I think, and he was yeah, and he
was writing a story about the so called news story
that the policeman was killed at January sixth, which is false.
The policeman was killed with the consequence of being hit
(11:21):
over the head with a fire englisher is completely false.
And they're trying to look for what happened to the gentleman.
And it looks like you might have been had a
toxic reaction or an allergic reaction to something also, did
you know that there were two police Capitol policemen that
killed themselves after this committed suicide? Oh yeah, I mean
(11:43):
I hadn't heard that either. By the way, there was
only one person to die in January sixth, and that
was the woman that from California. Okay, so as far
as I can tell from the reading, one person actually died,
and one person was trampled in something, and then three
people had heart attacks, and then the policeman died and
they're still not sure why. But he didn't die from
(12:05):
my head injury. But anyway, my point that I can
get back to is Greenwall is reporting this, and he's
reporting all the fake news, and that's bad cognitive psychology.
So he reports, he reports and reports and reports all
the fake news that say the myth that the policeman died,
and you're just repeating the myth, and so you're stamping
(12:26):
that in to the automatic unconscious. Whether or not you're
arguing with it or not is irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Oh, isn't that interesting?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know, that's repetition. You can't fight misinformation that way.
There's a specific way you fight misinformation, because the mind
stucks in misinformation if it's presented in a.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Certain way, So do you fight.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I'm not going to go into that today because
I don't think we have time. But I want to
go back into the collective. And I've been thinking a
lot about this. But what we've got our religions going
on right now, so kind of, as I call it,
the collective religion, the left religion is racism or anti
it's anti racist. Everything they say and do is about race.
(13:13):
It's their religion. It's like their reason for living. It's
the reason for their political party. I don't know what
else they are selling now. It's a good thing to
have equality and not discrimination. That's a good thing. But
do they have anything else in their religion that they're
selling to us.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I think they're a little weak on that right now.
I mean, it's been so easy for them to just
hate Trump for five years.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
They're struggling with meaning right now.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Now that Trump's calling, They've got to make a transition.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So there's like with some thing something they're doing. Okay,
so the Blue religion is struggling, But that's an important cause.
But liberty for all is an important cause, and liberty
for black people is an important cause, or brown people
or whatever, but it's like, I don't see anything else
their offer. I guess the unconscious on the right is
(14:10):
pretty dangerous by the way, also because it's more like
Trump is right. I'm not thinking about anything else. Trump
can do no wrong. So we've become the religion of Trump.
And I have to admit I'm kind of like guilty
of some of that because here's what Trump offers. It's like,
oh my god, the swamp is horrible. I'm looking at
(14:34):
the data for the swamp. I'm looking at the evidence,
and I'm freaked out by the swamp. And so who
fought the swamp? Anybody in the last thirty years swamp
fought the swamp Trump, So we're all in the religion
of Well, at least somebody's fighting the swamp, and that's Trump,
and can anybody else fight it? Even imagine that anybody
(14:55):
else can fight it? I mean, the guy's a phenomenally
unusual historical character, and like, if you ask me who
else could replace Trump? I mean this is why I
was like, I kind of worry about him, But who
the hell is like Trump? Nobody? So we've got a
messiah savior thing going on on the and the right
(15:16):
is kind of going unconscious now too.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Ron Paul was saying it, and people like me thought
he was a nut.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I thought wrong, Ron Paul was a nut. Yeah wait,
you thought Ron Paul was a nut?
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
You know when he was running for PRESI when he
was running for presidic was talking about the Federal Reserve.
No one else was talking about the federal reserve. He
was talking about the wars and nobody else was.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
He was talking about the swamp.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
He was talking about the swamp.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Well, that's really an important thought because libertarians, I mean,
we need to come back around to what the unconscious
is about Libertarians. Now, I've been looking at this. We're
an odd temperament type. We're in the minority as a
temperament type. I bet you if I tested libertarians, I
bet you my. I mean, I'm I'm totally confident that
(16:05):
libertarians test out as the theoretical temperament type. Out of
the four temperament types. They're going to test out the
ones that see the long view. I mean, I'm absolutely
sure the founders were libertarian temperament types, and that is
a minority of the people. We don't have a good
influence on the collective are the collective unconscious, and that's
(16:29):
a process problem. Libertarians need to address the fact that
they have no impact in bringing conscious awareness to the others.
Eighty eighty five percent. I mean, I need to look
at that, but it's thirty eight and thirty eight percent.
Guardians are thirty eight percent, artisans are thirty eight percent,
(16:49):
and then there's the nfs are I think twelve percent.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
So i'd say, maybe you're referring to personality.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Personality at temp actually temperament, not personality. So and we
can talk about that another time. But so the issue
is how do you wake up people to the libertarian philosophy,
which is good for everyone. It's good for everyone.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I know.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm very convinced that there's a right way to run
a country, and it has to be a libertarian. It's
not perfect, but it's as close as you're going to
get to the right way.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I would say consistent with this topic, because you've been
talking about Freud and psychology and making the unconscious conscious,
I say that libertarianism is trying to accomplish the same
thing in the economics world that they're trying to make
the unconscious conscious. They're trying to help the other eighty
five percent see what's true.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, I mean that's the overlap between economics, which is
social exchange, psychology, and evolutionary instincts human nature. It's all
of the same bucket.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Point is to try to open up the idea of
the collective unconscious and what we libertarians need to be
doing to try to bring it into the conscious awareness.
And I think the opportunity exists that Trump was close
enough to a libertarian. He started out as a liberal,
and then I think because of his opportunistic style, he
(18:24):
balanced some of the management problems between the liberal worldview
and the conservative worldview. He managed what I think the
liberal are the progressive worldview. They don't see is that
Trump was kind of like a middle ground person. A
lot of their policies he agreed with.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well, I mean that thing about being anti war, anti war,
isn't that a liberal?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, used to be liberal anti war and they had
to paint him as racist. He's not racist, so he's
actually merit based liberty. They never accepted that he didn't
care what skin color you are as long as you
do the job. Well, I mean that's so clear, and
it's like he's opportunistic business entrepreneur, achievement oriented, very achievements,
(19:16):
but they had to paint him as racist because that
was their selling point. Okay, So the point today is
that libertarians need to take a beeline on unconsciousness and
we need to look at that and develop interventions for that.
And the fact that I can be in a community
of psychologists where I'm talking about freedom of speech and
(19:40):
I'm getting objections to freedom of speech and support for
censorship stuns me. I mean that has happened to me recently,
and it just like it kind of depressed me, because like,
there's no hope for these folks. And these are psychologists
who are trained in academia. They are all kind of
(20:00):
halfway academics anyway. I mean, they're marching to the tune
of the Left.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Party, the government, university.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Government, and universities, and that they could not understand that
all censorship and I want to be absolute about censorship.
What was that example we had the other day? Oh yeah,
your dogs got out and we were both heartbroken and
you were distraught, and it occurred to me like you
could have a GPS on those dogs and you could
(20:28):
go locate them. And I didn't say it because I
didn't want to upset you. And then after we found
your dogs, I started talking about it and realized, and
then you gave me information that they have the chip
in them from the VET, and then we decided that
could have been activated. We might could have called the
VET to see if can that be activated?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And does it do more than just tell you who
the dog is? Is there a way for it to
actually help you locate them and.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
You locate it with a GPS for a fee or whatever?
Point being that, because I censored myself and my ideas,
I saved your emotions, but I also may have kept
us both from a solution to the problem, a creative solution.
So that's just how important information is to your point.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
But I am so grateful you didn't. Yeah, because I
was upset about those I.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Knew you're upset, and I was I was like, and I.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Was upset because I had not been responsible enough and
taken care of it.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Well, I knew that you were suffering crazy, But so hindsight,
if we'd have brought that up, you'd have felt bad.
But what if we'd have been able to track the dogs?
Would that have been worth it to you?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I'll call the vet today and find out. I'll be
more agreeable to your argument if it ends up being
true that they can turn on something and you can
locate the dogs.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Well, yeah, that's hindsight though. Okay, so yeah, if I
knew that they could, but see I didn't know they
had a chip in them. You had that information, and
I came up with the information about boy, what we
need is a GPS locator in those dogs, which I
know they sell. I think our grandchildren have things with
(22:13):
GPS locators. I think people are using it all over
the place. But the point, the final point is.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
The fitness trackers. Fitness trackers have a GPS locator. If
I buy a fitness tracker for our grandson, his mother
will be able to know where he is.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Well, she already has a tracker on him. Okay, I'm
pretty sure she's done that. Well, okay, that's off the point.
But the final point is that people avoid information and
that censorship. And yeah, he was like, don't tell me
that because it'll upset me. But you know it's the
other ways, like tough en up, you get upset, And
so to protect ourselves from information is self censorship. Yeah,
(22:54):
I mean that's the whole point of psychotherapy. Often is
a person is either consciously avoiding information are unconsciously avoiding information.
That's pretty much eighty percent of psychotherapy. It's all you know,
there's something called serious mental disorder. Okay, you put that
over here in one bucket. Everything else is pretty much
(23:17):
the psychotherapy of avoiding information. Are failing to desensitize yourself.
So it's information flow. Individual problem solving and group problem
solving is devastated by the unconscious. So that's where we
are in this country right now, and that's where libertarians are.
Libertarians should what's that call when you target something by
(23:39):
painting a red mark on it? What's that called painting?
It's called painting a target, isn't it. We should paint
a target. We should paint the target of the collective unconscious.
And libertarians are the ones to do it because we
have the theoretical and we have the tools, the ideas
that we can use as tools to make the unconscious conscious.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
M hm
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Hm
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