September 10, 2025 • 24 mins
(Rebroadcast of ep. 77)
In this episode of Libertarians Talk Psychology, we tackle the provocative question: Is it always the government’s fault? While government intervention often makes existing problems worse, the truth is more complicated. Sometimes, the public itself resists needed reforms or rejects practical solutions—even when they could make life better.
We dig into how policies and cultural attitudes interact, touching on examples such as Rand Paul’s political positions, YouTube’s role in public discourse, and the heated debates over masking requirements. This candid conversation blends psychology, politics, and libertarian principles, challenging listeners to question not only government overreach but also our own responsibility in shaping society.
Whether you’re a libertarian thinker, political skeptic, or just curious about the intersection of psychology and government policy, this episode offers thought-provoking insights you won’t want to miss.
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YouTube
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Bluesky
All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
In this episode of Libertarians Talk Psychology, we tackle the provocative question: Is it always the government’s fault? While government intervention often makes existing problems worse, the truth is more complicated. Sometimes, the public itself resists needed reforms or rejects practical solutions—even when they could make life better.
We dig into how policies and cultural attitudes interact, touching on examples such as Rand Paul’s political positions, YouTube’s role in public discourse, and the heated debates over masking requirements. This candid conversation blends psychology, politics, and libertarian principles, challenging listeners to question not only government overreach but also our own responsibility in shaping society.
Whether you’re a libertarian thinker, political skeptic, or just curious about the intersection of psychology and government policy, this episode offers thought-provoking insights you won’t want to miss.
Follow Us:
YouTube
Bluesky
All audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott Videography
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a rebroadcast of an earlier episode.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You're listening to the podcast Coffee with Mike and Julie
Libertarians Talk Psychology. This is current commentary from an NBA
businessman and a PhD psychologist.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I recently have come to the realization or concept that
I don't think it's enough for us to just blame
government and business collusion for the problems we see in
our society. There's some additional responsibility that we have as individuals,
and I think that at an individual level, we cling
(00:39):
to things that we feel secure with even when we
know it doesn't make sense. So there are two things.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That's prospect theory. By the way, that's really true. We
overvalue things we cling to versus taking risks with things
that would be profitable. But anyway, that's another topic. But
you but you're right.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
About that, and I'm struggled with today's topic because I
know that it is right in the middle of your
field of interest, psychology. But it's part of our mission
to increase awareness when we see things in the news
that we should expose or doesn't make sense. So anyway,
the thing in the news that got my attention was
(01:18):
Rand Paul. I'm going to give you his quote first,
because that's the best part. His quote is, does this
mean snot knows sensors at YouTube will come to my
office and kiss my ass and admit I was right?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So that's in some kind of senate hearing.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Oh, I don't know, Barry said this.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, snot knows sensors. That's great.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
So the precipitating event was that some month or two
ago he made the comment that cloth masks did almost
no good and that people should be aware of that.
And I remember at the time I had read some
articles about research about mass and if you remember, the
title of the article was, we can quit claiming that
(02:05):
masks don't work. And then when I read the body
of the article, they said that the research clearly showed
that cloth masks did not work at all, and that
even the hospital type masks was ninety five was good
if you practice social distancing. So that was the only
way they worked a little bit. They worked a little bit.
(02:26):
That's the only way they could show that the mass
work at all was that you had to have the
right mass and you had to have social difference.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well that's a little biased, because if you have somebody
sick and they're coughing into their mask. It does help transmission.
I mean, but any case, let's don't go down that
rabbit hole. There's so much debate about it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, the point that I'm making is that I think
people are irrationally depending on the mask stuff because it
makes them feel good, it makes them feel well used.
I'm doing something.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
You're bringing up. We saw when we were driving to
breakfast that day. Remember we thought, oh my god, this
guy was walking down the sidewalk, no one in sight.
Bright sunny day. We all will know that the sunshine
kills even the delta variant. And he's walking down the
sidewalk by himself, wearing his mask.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
So I have an example from yesterday. Yesterday I was
out at the beach. So I am at the in
the Panhandle of Florida, at the beach in the sun.
A neighbor of our vacation house neighbor was out there
on the beach with a mask, And because he was
wearing the mask, I couldn't quite recognize and so I
(03:39):
called out to him because I thought it might be him.
So he's wearing the mask and he comes up to me.
And when he comes up to me, he lowers the
mask so that he can talk with I.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Know, I've seen that, and I've seen people.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
The biggest joke of all, if anything, he should not
have had the mask on when he's walking around on
a windy, sunny beach. He shouldn't have been wearing the mask,
and then when he got close to me, he should have.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well, this probably offends your engineering mentality because it's so illogical,
and I think you're right to point out that that
person is not understanding the point of a mask fully
enough to have that impact their behavior fully. So the
reason they're doing it must be to some sense of
security or conformity, or the badge of I'm a bluebird,
(04:26):
or there's some other reason.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
The sense of security and conformity I really think captures it.
I think that phrase really captures what people get because
everybody knows. Everybody knows that if you're out in the sun,
Wendy at the beach, there's.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
No I'm not sure everybody knows that. I'm not sure everybody.
I'm not sure the term everybody knows is a good term.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, anyway, the mask thing. Rand Paul had made this statement, yeah,
the cloth mass, and when.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
He did researched. He probably lived.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
He's a doctor. He knew what he was doing.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
He's a physician, and he's also a person who we
know researches many things.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I do want to say that he in response to that,
he left YouTube and he started on Rumble. So he
quit YouTube and went to Rumble. Well, I need that's
worth I don't know anything about Rumble.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
But I've signed up to get Rumble. I mean, this
transferring off these censorship channels is going to take a
little time. You know. I saw where Trump had a
billion dollars investment in his social media channels. I don't
know how he's going to do it. Trying to find
a way to sign up without having the gop hag
(05:42):
me as a SAP. This sorting out of the information
channels is crazy right now, but it's going to take time.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Anyway, go ahead, Well, that is today's topic. Is this
at an individual level? In the past, we used to
depend on trusted sources of information. Yeah, and those trusted
sources of information have gotten.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Okay, so you're diagnosing the system now you're looking at
a different level. You're looking at the individual level, right,
which is really important. That's been called toxic followers in
the literature, the psychology literature is if you have enough
toxic followers that aren't processing information in a critical thinking way,
then that'll move the system into a toxic place. Whether
(06:26):
or not your leaders are effective and have integrity, whether
or not your system processes are correctly designed. You know,
you can have checks and balances, but if you have
toxic followers, you got serious trouble.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And I'm looking at myself and who I have blamed
for this dilemma. And I have been quick to blame
the collusion between government and industry.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, your typical libertarian and then our first and most
fun choice for blaming is government.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Right, and we're correct, but there is a responsibility at
the individual level. There's a last thing about this, you know,
security and overly conforming.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
You know, you know, I think you're right in a
sense because I just saw that happen with the psychologist.
The government agency wanted to expand its power. They go, oh,
we need to expand our power or the sky will fall.
You know, it'll be horrible. And then these toxic followers
recruited a bunch of toxic followers, and these people were
brain dead. They bought anything they were told, they lapped
(07:33):
it up like lap dogs. I mean, I was stunned
by the lack of critical thinking going on in the followers,
and they mode us down. The resistance were mostly boomers
and the millennials or whoever they were modus down. We
got our ass handed to us on a platter. So
that's a good example and one that's going to stick
(07:55):
with me a while. About what you're saying is when
toxic followers decide, you know, and that would be gool
ourg archipelago. I mean, you know, the toxic followers are
deadly Milgrimites. Stanley Milgram pointed out toxic following. You know,
someone that would pull a lever and shock a subject
and offload their sense of responsibility to the authority figure
(08:19):
that's telling them.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
And as I commented before, anytime you bring up Milgrim,
I feel the need to point out when I was
a young man, I would have done it.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Well, that's why they read that's where they recruit young
men for military is like they'll do anything. Now if
highlighted very well in the movie Fourth of July with
Tom Cruise, the Hero's Journey.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
So I'm so fortunate that I did not have to
get in the military and go kill people because you
would because man, I would feel terrible. Now, yeah, you
know I'm an emotional old man.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, you know, and that's the casualty. My colleague Figlely
wrote the Casualties of War, The Unconscious, the unacknowledged, the
unsthing casualties of war. I mean, of course, that's it
goes against all They named it a moral injury. You're
asking young men to go brain dead and go kill
(09:11):
people that they have no reason to kill. You know,
there's no argument going on. Yeah, you know, that's the
good thing about the Libertarians. We don't believe in very
much war. Only a little bit to defend yourself, right,
But none of this aggressiveness to promote democracy. I mean,
what a hell of a way to promote democracy anyway,
(09:32):
what a ridiculous way to war to promote democracy. It's
almost like.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Oxy that's like the religious wars back in the age
of like, we're.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Going to promote God. We're going to promote God's will
through war making, death, destruction, rapid.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Village of other religion. Yeah, this other religion, true religion.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The true religion. I mean, it's really I mean, we've
come a long way since that was.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
I think we've come very well, we've.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Come a long way. Read Pinker. Read Steven Pinker. Okay,
go ahead.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Some other examples that I think are possible candidates for
this thing about you know, the individual level. Individuals are
cooperating too much, but our belief in doctor's brain did
just do whatever the doctor says and not question. And
doctors in the meantime are more and more getting away
(10:28):
from science and going more and more with oh there.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, so we're seeing an example of that right now.
So the doctors that are giving out ivermectin, they're trying
to censor the data on the ivermectin stuff. But the
doctors that are giving it out and the pharmacies are
being targeted, being closed down and targeted and threaten their
licenses are being threatened.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
And so we've experienced this. We go to the doctor
and we say, hey, I mean, I'll use the example
of ivermectin, but we mentioned ivermectin, and they get nervous
and clear to us, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
We couldn't get it from our primary gear.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
He's like, we're not good information from the very person
that we have relied on our lives to give us
good information about our health.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I've never relied on them, but you have.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I have.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I've never relied on those.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
But I also am pretty quick to read the expression
on their face. And I see the deer in the headlights,
and I know, and I wait a minute, he isn't
being truthful with me here. Something's amiss.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
When he can't give me eye contact to talk with
me about this, he's hiding something. He's hiding, he's hiding.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
The fact that he's scared to death to go on record.
I mean, all of this is in records. So the
confidentiality and the freedom of information, the freedom of action
is being monitored by big brother.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
So big business is colluding with my doctor or whatever,
the medical industry and all that. But what I'm pointing
out for today is that we at the individual level
are slow to recognize it. At the individual level, it
makes us feel secure to be able to talk to
our doctor and have him tell us that we're not
as sick as we think. Maybe we are something. You know,
(12:09):
that high cholesterol number isn't so bad, and we can
just forget about it. It's not a problem. But we
have a responsibility nowadays as any.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
To educate ourselves to not.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Be seduced into just feeling okay about that.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Well, you're bringing you're bringing up the issue of the
critical thinking in the country, and so I read the statistic.
We'll see I was reading this in Stanovich, is my
side bias. Eighty percent of the population isn't really convinced
of anything. He points out that it's really twenty percent
(12:44):
are like us. We're like pissed off or where you
and I have the conviction that the constitutional design of
the country is the best possible design of a country,
and you know that there's certain ways keep government small.
And we have convictions and beliefs, which, by the way,
are resistant to critical thinking. We're just as biased. Oh yeah,
(13:05):
with our biases.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
You have a hard time changing my mind.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, and I've tried before and you're very resistant.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
But the point is resistant to you, just like I'm
resistible or not just like but yeah, simpler to me,
resistant to everybody else.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
It's kind of paradoxical that you're preaching today about other
people like you should wake up. It's like, okay, but
eighty percent of people don't give a crap about what's
happening until it's right in their face. But the point
you're making is critical thinking has gone down. And that's
a fact, by the way that can be measured. Critical
(13:42):
thinking in our population probably was never all that high,
but it has been measurably sinking for a while. And
just to see the conflict going on now and from
my own experience, personal experiences, the boomers still are trying
to critical think. But we're the last.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Great pretty slow. Our brains are getting slower.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Well, and we're not being in my community, we're not
being respected that you millennials or know it alls yea.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And let me say this, I'm retired now, well you
are too, whether you know it or not.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I'm retired, Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
In the general population, if you're retired, you are a
level lower.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I mean you've lost status.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
You've lost status.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, then I take it back. I'm not retired.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
But this week I was having a conversation with a
woman who was assuming that I was not retired.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Oh, somebody assumed you were not retired anyway, What you
look retired? You walk around this community, you look like that.
If I had like is that person I had shaved?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I had shaved. I was wearing a collared.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Shirt, Oh, well, you're disguised. You were disguised as a
person who actually works for a living, and she has
some meaningful.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
If I had my three day growth of gray beard
and wearing your cat and wearing.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
My yeah, I have most of the time, you do
look like a bomb.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Well most of the time I am kind of a bomb.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Well, I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
But anyway, as soon as it became known that I
was retired, I could tell there was a change in
her the way she.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Was this a young woman.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
No, you know, don't worry. I was.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That's that's young for you.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Yeah for me, But no, she was not. Don't I
don't think that what you're thinking about was part.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Well, you're bringing up the issue of the system that
we're in. If we go back to our cycle of
nations theory that the selfishness we were coming from the
abundance of level and we're into the selfishness, then you
would predict that the younger generation has become selfish. Now
that selfishness is going to exhibit itself through arrogance.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Okay, so let me go to how we go through
this so that I can understand your point. Because you've
gone to the Titler cycle of I guess cultures.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Cycle of nations, cycle of nations, and what I think
he calls it the cycle of nations. He studied cultures
and cycles and realized there was a predictable cycle in
all nations life kind.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Of bondage being the at one point that we can
all identify with where the culture is really struggling. But anyway,
it goes to courage and then abundance and then selfishness.
And what you're pointing out is that the Boomer generation
was a generation of abundance.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Well, I think we were a little selfish, But I
don't recall ever not listening to my elders, like the
millennials are not listening to their elders. I mean, I
don't recall that. I may be wrong about it.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
You're saying that's a trait of selfishness.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's a trait of selfishness to be a closed system
and not listening to new information, because you know, if
you're in a closed system, you're defending yourself, then you're
probably cheating.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I see.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
You know a system is going to cheat if it can,
And that would be how to describe the selfishness. It's
just the same. It's just the same thing as power
always corrupts.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
But that helps me accept the anxiety I feel as
an old man and interacting with people in the general public,
and I feel like, you know, I deserve a little
more respect than this.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I mean, that's because you were a hot shot your
whole life. You were.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I know you've pointed that out, that out to you
many many you've pointed out to me, and that just
didn't quite do it for me. But this helps me that.
In other words, what you've been pointing out is the
fault within me. Yes, and what you're saying with the
cycle stuff, you're helping me see that. No, they're the
(18:00):
damn problem. They're selfish and they take seeing me as
less than I am.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Well, it's true. Entitlement is tenentitlement, arrogance, overconfidence, those are
all elements of self oriented deception.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That helps me.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I'm glad. I'm glad to be able to help you.
You're finally listening to me.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Well, I don't know where I am in the cycle
that makes me resistant to listening to you.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Well, that's a very interesting thought. Is that cycle also
pertinent to individual Now when we're looking at the wall here,
both of us are looking at the wall because it's
a circle. Yes, I'm bringing up the hero's journey is
not the same circle. But the hero's journey is a circle,
and that it starts with a fall, so it would
(18:51):
be starting with the fall, it would happen bondage.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
This is an interesting concept that this Titler cycle isn't
just coldres isn't just countries. It might be at individual
levels that we.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well no, no, I mean yes and no. Cycles happen
in all living systems. Sure you know of thriving maintenance
and then decline. So the question is in the you know,
one question is can the United States? So you know
our view of where we are, and you're bringing up
(19:24):
toxic followers and you're kind of complaining about the followers,
which you should complain about because human decision making is
not good. It's never been good. Every time we measure it,
it's not very good at all.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Well, I think this thing about the masks and COVID
is the most blatant example I've ever seen of people
going overboard because it makes them feel better.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
You and I might disagree on the mask because I
don't agree that the masks provide no it's like someone
using a handkerchief.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I didn't say that it provides none.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I know, I know, but I'm I'm thinking it's okay
for people to wear a mask. But I'll tell you
another example of the vaccine where they're barring the unvaccinated
from like places. Okay, that goes against the fact that
the unvaccinated are not a risk to the vaccinated. They
(20:20):
pose no risk now infected people. I guess the conclusion
is if you're unvaccinated, you're carrying the infection, which is
actually not true. If you're carrying the infection right now,
it looks like the evidence is pretty clear that you
can be carrying the infection whether you're vaccinated are unvaccinated.
So these things, these things where you bar one group
(20:45):
is really a political decision rather than a scientific decision.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
That whole thing about vaccinated unvaccinated carrying the disease. On
both those situations, it gets emotional and convoluted and gets
a little hard to make sense of it. But that
the mask is super clear. Let me join, let me
go to the other one. Let me okay, let me
point out that the whole thing about the police, over
(21:09):
dependence on police, I think our overdependence on police, our
overdependence on prisons, our overdependence on controlling drugs.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Bad decision making. As you say, all of these three.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Of those, we are overly dependent on those things because
we can't quite let go of it. We know that
all three of those areas are just poorly well we don't.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
You pointed out in your podcast on drugs, drug programs
at Portugal has proven. I thought you did a good
job in that podcast about proving that Portugal has kind
of the solution on the war on drugs. And so
what you're saying today is like, how come we can't
import their decision? How come the people making the decision
(21:55):
can't buy into something that's proven.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Well in today's episode, I'm not focusing on our elected
decision makers. I'm focusing on us as individuals who have
a hard time accepting Michael drugs, just have a hard
time accepting the idea that we can let go of
the way we're doing it now.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Well, you're saying that the voters are in charge of
you think the voters are in charge.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Well, I'm saying that's a factor. That's one factor that
I'm typically have not concentrated on, and yet it's very
important we individuals, other human beings, we're too anxious to
let go of what we have.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Now, well, you're yeah, you seem to be saying that
it's the followers. In this case, would be the voters
are not willing to let go of bad ideas. I
can see that, But sometimes I'm thinking, you know, I've
seen laws being made in the Louisiana legislature. I was
kind of flabbergasted at how they're made. You know, this
(22:55):
idea that you don't want to see how laws are
made because it's like sausage. True, but those people try
to do the right thing. They really have more integrity
than I thought. But what comes out is a back
room negotiation, and they have the motivation of not pissing
off the voters. So you could be right and you
(23:17):
could be wrong that the voters are still in charge
of the legislators. I think that is a very good point,
that maybe it's the voters that are not willing to
be creative and innovative.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
So it's time for me to conclude this topic, and
I'll just say it this way the way the same
way I started it is that it is not enough
to just think that government is the problem We individuals.
The general public needs to be aware that we cling
to things that make us feel secure, and when we
(23:52):
do that at a toxic level, when we go along
with doing the wrong thing just because it makes us
feel secure, confuses the whole system. So we as individuals
who talk to each other, need to remind each other
all the time about what makes sense and what does
not make sense.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
This has been a rebroadcast of an earlier episode.
This is a rebroadcast of an earlier episode.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You're listening to the podcast Coffee with Mike and Julie
Libertarians Talk Psychology. This is current commentary from an NBA
businessman and a PhD psychologist.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I recently have come to the realization or concept that
I don't think it's enough for us to just blame
government and business collusion for the problems we see in
our society. There's some additional responsibility that we have as individuals,
and I think that at an individual level, we cling
(00:39):
to things that we feel secure with even when we
know it doesn't make sense. So there are two things.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That's prospect theory. By the way, that's really true. We
overvalue things we cling to versus taking risks with things
that would be profitable. But anyway, that's another topic. But
you but you're right.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
About that, and I'm struggled with today's topic because I
know that it is right in the middle of your
field of interest, psychology. But it's part of our mission
to increase awareness when we see things in the news
that we should expose or doesn't make sense. So anyway,
the thing in the news that got my attention was
(01:18):
Rand Paul. I'm going to give you his quote first,
because that's the best part. His quote is, does this
mean snot knows sensors at YouTube will come to my
office and kiss my ass and admit I was right?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So that's in some kind of senate hearing.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Oh, I don't know, Barry said this.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, snot knows sensors. That's great.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
So the precipitating event was that some month or two
ago he made the comment that cloth masks did almost
no good and that people should be aware of that.
And I remember at the time I had read some
articles about research about mass and if you remember, the
title of the article was, we can quit claiming that
(02:05):
masks don't work. And then when I read the body
of the article, they said that the research clearly showed
that cloth masks did not work at all, and that
even the hospital type masks was ninety five was good
if you practice social distancing. So that was the only
way they worked a little bit. They worked a little bit.
(02:26):
That's the only way they could show that the mass
work at all was that you had to have the
right mass and you had to have social difference.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well that's a little biased, because if you have somebody
sick and they're coughing into their mask. It does help transmission.
I mean, but any case, let's don't go down that
rabbit hole. There's so much debate about it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, the point that I'm making is that I think
people are irrationally depending on the mask stuff because it
makes them feel good, it makes them feel well used.
I'm doing something.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
You're bringing up. We saw when we were driving to
breakfast that day. Remember we thought, oh my god, this
guy was walking down the sidewalk, no one in sight.
Bright sunny day. We all will know that the sunshine
kills even the delta variant. And he's walking down the
sidewalk by himself, wearing his mask.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
So I have an example from yesterday. Yesterday I was
out at the beach. So I am at the in
the Panhandle of Florida, at the beach in the sun.
A neighbor of our vacation house neighbor was out there
on the beach with a mask, And because he was
wearing the mask, I couldn't quite recognize and so I
(03:39):
called out to him because I thought it might be him.
So he's wearing the mask and he comes up to me.
And when he comes up to me, he lowers the
mask so that he can talk with I.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Know, I've seen that, and I've seen people.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
The biggest joke of all, if anything, he should not
have had the mask on when he's walking around on
a windy, sunny beach. He shouldn't have been wearing the mask,
and then when he got close to me, he should have.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well, this probably offends your engineering mentality because it's so illogical,
and I think you're right to point out that that
person is not understanding the point of a mask fully
enough to have that impact their behavior fully. So the
reason they're doing it must be to some sense of
security or conformity, or the badge of I'm a bluebird,
(04:26):
or there's some other reason.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
The sense of security and conformity I really think captures it.
I think that phrase really captures what people get because
everybody knows. Everybody knows that if you're out in the sun,
Wendy at the beach, there's.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
No I'm not sure everybody knows that. I'm not sure everybody.
I'm not sure the term everybody knows is a good term.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, anyway, the mask thing. Rand Paul had made this statement, yeah,
the cloth mass, and when.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
He did researched. He probably lived.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
He's a doctor. He knew what he was doing.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
He's a physician, and he's also a person who we
know researches many things.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I do want to say that he in response to that,
he left YouTube and he started on Rumble. So he
quit YouTube and went to Rumble. Well, I need that's
worth I don't know anything about Rumble.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
But I've signed up to get Rumble. I mean, this
transferring off these censorship channels is going to take a
little time. You know. I saw where Trump had a
billion dollars investment in his social media channels. I don't
know how he's going to do it. Trying to find
a way to sign up without having the gop hag
(05:42):
me as a SAP. This sorting out of the information
channels is crazy right now, but it's going to take time.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Anyway, go ahead, Well, that is today's topic. Is this
at an individual level? In the past, we used to
depend on trusted sources of information. Yeah, and those trusted
sources of information have gotten.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Okay, so you're diagnosing the system now you're looking at
a different level. You're looking at the individual level, right,
which is really important. That's been called toxic followers in
the literature, the psychology literature is if you have enough
toxic followers that aren't processing information in a critical thinking way,
then that'll move the system into a toxic place. Whether
(06:26):
or not your leaders are effective and have integrity, whether
or not your system processes are correctly designed. You know,
you can have checks and balances, but if you have
toxic followers, you got serious trouble.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And I'm looking at myself and who I have blamed
for this dilemma. And I have been quick to blame
the collusion between government and industry.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, your typical libertarian and then our first and most
fun choice for blaming is government.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Right, and we're correct, but there is a responsibility at
the individual level. There's a last thing about this, you know,
security and overly conforming.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
You know, you know, I think you're right in a
sense because I just saw that happen with the psychologist.
The government agency wanted to expand its power. They go, oh,
we need to expand our power or the sky will fall.
You know, it'll be horrible. And then these toxic followers
recruited a bunch of toxic followers, and these people were
brain dead. They bought anything they were told, they lapped
(07:33):
it up like lap dogs. I mean, I was stunned
by the lack of critical thinking going on in the followers,
and they mode us down. The resistance were mostly boomers
and the millennials or whoever they were modus down. We
got our ass handed to us on a platter. So
that's a good example and one that's going to stick
(07:55):
with me a while. About what you're saying is when
toxic followers decide, you know, and that would be gool
ourg archipelago. I mean, you know, the toxic followers are
deadly Milgrimites. Stanley Milgram pointed out toxic following. You know,
someone that would pull a lever and shock a subject
and offload their sense of responsibility to the authority figure
(08:19):
that's telling them.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
And as I commented before, anytime you bring up Milgrim,
I feel the need to point out when I was
a young man, I would have done it.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Well, that's why they read that's where they recruit young
men for military is like they'll do anything. Now if
highlighted very well in the movie Fourth of July with
Tom Cruise, the Hero's Journey.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
So I'm so fortunate that I did not have to
get in the military and go kill people because you
would because man, I would feel terrible. Now, yeah, you
know I'm an emotional old man.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, you know, and that's the casualty. My colleague Figlely
wrote the Casualties of War, The Unconscious, the unacknowledged, the
unsthing casualties of war. I mean, of course, that's it
goes against all They named it a moral injury. You're
asking young men to go brain dead and go kill
(09:11):
people that they have no reason to kill. You know,
there's no argument going on. Yeah, you know, that's the
good thing about the Libertarians. We don't believe in very
much war. Only a little bit to defend yourself, right,
But none of this aggressiveness to promote democracy. I mean,
what a hell of a way to promote democracy anyway,
(09:32):
what a ridiculous way to war to promote democracy. It's
almost like.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Oxy that's like the religious wars back in the age
of like, we're.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Going to promote God. We're going to promote God's will
through war making, death, destruction, rapid.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Village of other religion. Yeah, this other religion, true religion.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The true religion. I mean, it's really I mean, we've
come a long way since that was.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
I think we've come very well, we've.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Come a long way. Read Pinker. Read Steven Pinker. Okay,
go ahead.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Some other examples that I think are possible candidates for
this thing about you know, the individual level. Individuals are
cooperating too much, but our belief in doctor's brain did
just do whatever the doctor says and not question. And
doctors in the meantime are more and more getting away
(10:28):
from science and going more and more with oh there.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, so we're seeing an example of that right now.
So the doctors that are giving out ivermectin, they're trying
to censor the data on the ivermectin stuff. But the
doctors that are giving it out and the pharmacies are
being targeted, being closed down and targeted and threaten their
licenses are being threatened.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
And so we've experienced this. We go to the doctor
and we say, hey, I mean, I'll use the example
of ivermectin, but we mentioned ivermectin, and they get nervous
and clear to us, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
We couldn't get it from our primary gear.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
He's like, we're not good information from the very person
that we have relied on our lives to give us
good information about our health.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I've never relied on them, but you have.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I have.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I've never relied on those.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
But I also am pretty quick to read the expression
on their face. And I see the deer in the headlights,
and I know, and I wait a minute, he isn't
being truthful with me here. Something's amiss.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
When he can't give me eye contact to talk with
me about this, he's hiding something. He's hiding, he's hiding.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
The fact that he's scared to death to go on record.
I mean, all of this is in records. So the
confidentiality and the freedom of information, the freedom of action
is being monitored by big brother.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
So big business is colluding with my doctor or whatever,
the medical industry and all that. But what I'm pointing
out for today is that we at the individual level
are slow to recognize it. At the individual level, it
makes us feel secure to be able to talk to
our doctor and have him tell us that we're not
as sick as we think. Maybe we are something. You know,
(12:09):
that high cholesterol number isn't so bad, and we can
just forget about it. It's not a problem. But we
have a responsibility nowadays as any.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
To educate ourselves to not.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Be seduced into just feeling okay about that.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Well, you're bringing you're bringing up the issue of the
critical thinking in the country, and so I read the statistic.
We'll see I was reading this in Stanovich, is my
side bias. Eighty percent of the population isn't really convinced
of anything. He points out that it's really twenty percent
(12:44):
are like us. We're like pissed off or where you
and I have the conviction that the constitutional design of
the country is the best possible design of a country,
and you know that there's certain ways keep government small.
And we have convictions and beliefs, which, by the way,
are resistant to critical thinking. We're just as biased. Oh yeah,
(13:05):
with our biases.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
You have a hard time changing my mind.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, and I've tried before and you're very resistant.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
But the point is resistant to you, just like I'm
resistible or not just like but yeah, simpler to me,
resistant to everybody else.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
It's kind of paradoxical that you're preaching today about other
people like you should wake up. It's like, okay, but
eighty percent of people don't give a crap about what's
happening until it's right in their face. But the point
you're making is critical thinking has gone down. And that's
a fact, by the way that can be measured. Critical
(13:42):
thinking in our population probably was never all that high,
but it has been measurably sinking for a while. And
just to see the conflict going on now and from
my own experience, personal experiences, the boomers still are trying
to critical think. But we're the last.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Great pretty slow. Our brains are getting slower.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Well, and we're not being in my community, we're not
being respected that you millennials or know it alls yea.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And let me say this, I'm retired now, well you
are too, whether you know it or not.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I'm retired, Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
In the general population, if you're retired, you are a
level lower.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I mean you've lost status.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
You've lost status.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, then I take it back. I'm not retired.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
But this week I was having a conversation with a
woman who was assuming that I was not retired.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Oh, somebody assumed you were not retired anyway, What you
look retired? You walk around this community, you look like that.
If I had like is that person I had shaved?
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I had shaved. I was wearing a collared.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Shirt, Oh, well, you're disguised. You were disguised as a
person who actually works for a living, and she has
some meaningful.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
If I had my three day growth of gray beard
and wearing your cat and wearing.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
My yeah, I have most of the time, you do
look like a bomb.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Well most of the time I am kind of a bomb.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Well, I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
But anyway, as soon as it became known that I
was retired, I could tell there was a change in
her the way she.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Was this a young woman.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
No, you know, don't worry. I was.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That's that's young for you.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Yeah for me, But no, she was not. Don't I
don't think that what you're thinking about was part.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Well, you're bringing up the issue of the system that
we're in. If we go back to our cycle of
nations theory that the selfishness we were coming from the
abundance of level and we're into the selfishness, then you
would predict that the younger generation has become selfish. Now
that selfishness is going to exhibit itself through arrogance.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Okay, so let me go to how we go through
this so that I can understand your point. Because you've
gone to the Titler cycle of I guess cultures.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Cycle of nations, cycle of nations, and what I think
he calls it the cycle of nations. He studied cultures
and cycles and realized there was a predictable cycle in
all nations life kind.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Of bondage being the at one point that we can
all identify with where the culture is really struggling. But anyway,
it goes to courage and then abundance and then selfishness.
And what you're pointing out is that the Boomer generation
was a generation of abundance.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Well, I think we were a little selfish, But I
don't recall ever not listening to my elders, like the
millennials are not listening to their elders. I mean, I
don't recall that. I may be wrong about it.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
You're saying that's a trait of selfishness.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's a trait of selfishness to be a closed system
and not listening to new information, because you know, if
you're in a closed system, you're defending yourself, then you're
probably cheating.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I see.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
You know a system is going to cheat if it can,
And that would be how to describe the selfishness. It's
just the same. It's just the same thing as power
always corrupts.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
But that helps me accept the anxiety I feel as
an old man and interacting with people in the general public,
and I feel like, you know, I deserve a little
more respect than this.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I mean, that's because you were a hot shot your
whole life. You were.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I know you've pointed that out, that out to you
many many you've pointed out to me, and that just
didn't quite do it for me. But this helps me that.
In other words, what you've been pointing out is the
fault within me. Yes, and what you're saying with the
cycle stuff, you're helping me see that. No, they're the
(18:00):
damn problem. They're selfish and they take seeing me as
less than I am.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Well, it's true. Entitlement is tenentitlement, arrogance, overconfidence, those are
all elements of self oriented deception.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That helps me.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I'm glad. I'm glad to be able to help you.
You're finally listening to me.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Well, I don't know where I am in the cycle
that makes me resistant to listening to you.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Well, that's a very interesting thought. Is that cycle also
pertinent to individual Now when we're looking at the wall here,
both of us are looking at the wall because it's
a circle. Yes, I'm bringing up the hero's journey is
not the same circle. But the hero's journey is a circle,
and that it starts with a fall, so it would
(18:51):
be starting with the fall, it would happen bondage.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
This is an interesting concept that this Titler cycle isn't
just coldres isn't just countries. It might be at individual
levels that we.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well no, no, I mean yes and no. Cycles happen
in all living systems. Sure you know of thriving maintenance
and then decline. So the question is in the you know,
one question is can the United States? So you know
our view of where we are, and you're bringing up
(19:24):
toxic followers and you're kind of complaining about the followers,
which you should complain about because human decision making is
not good. It's never been good. Every time we measure it,
it's not very good at all.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Well, I think this thing about the masks and COVID
is the most blatant example I've ever seen of people
going overboard because it makes them feel better.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
You and I might disagree on the mask because I
don't agree that the masks provide no it's like someone
using a handkerchief.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I didn't say that it provides none.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I know, I know, but I'm I'm thinking it's okay
for people to wear a mask. But I'll tell you
another example of the vaccine where they're barring the unvaccinated
from like places. Okay, that goes against the fact that
the unvaccinated are not a risk to the vaccinated. They
(20:20):
pose no risk now infected people. I guess the conclusion
is if you're unvaccinated, you're carrying the infection, which is
actually not true. If you're carrying the infection right now,
it looks like the evidence is pretty clear that you
can be carrying the infection whether you're vaccinated are unvaccinated.
So these things, these things where you bar one group
(20:45):
is really a political decision rather than a scientific decision.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
That whole thing about vaccinated unvaccinated carrying the disease. On
both those situations, it gets emotional and convoluted and gets
a little hard to make sense of it. But that
the mask is super clear. Let me join, let me
go to the other one. Let me okay, let me
point out that the whole thing about the police, over
(21:09):
dependence on police, I think our overdependence on police, our
overdependence on prisons, our overdependence on controlling drugs.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Bad decision making. As you say, all of these three.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Of those, we are overly dependent on those things because
we can't quite let go of it. We know that
all three of those areas are just poorly well we don't.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
You pointed out in your podcast on drugs, drug programs
at Portugal has proven. I thought you did a good
job in that podcast about proving that Portugal has kind
of the solution on the war on drugs. And so
what you're saying today is like, how come we can't
import their decision? How come the people making the decision
(21:55):
can't buy into something that's proven.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Well in today's episode, I'm not focusing on our elected
decision makers. I'm focusing on us as individuals who have
a hard time accepting Michael drugs, just have a hard
time accepting the idea that we can let go of
the way we're doing it now.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Well, you're saying that the voters are in charge of
you think the voters are in charge.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Well, I'm saying that's a factor. That's one factor that
I'm typically have not concentrated on, and yet it's very
important we individuals, other human beings, we're too anxious to
let go of what we have.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Now, well, you're yeah, you seem to be saying that
it's the followers. In this case, would be the voters
are not willing to let go of bad ideas. I
can see that, But sometimes I'm thinking, you know, I've
seen laws being made in the Louisiana legislature. I was
kind of flabbergasted at how they're made. You know, this
(22:55):
idea that you don't want to see how laws are
made because it's like sausage. True, but those people try
to do the right thing. They really have more integrity
than I thought. But what comes out is a back
room negotiation, and they have the motivation of not pissing
off the voters. So you could be right and you
(23:17):
could be wrong that the voters are still in charge
of the legislators. I think that is a very good point,
that maybe it's the voters that are not willing to
be creative and innovative.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
So it's time for me to conclude this topic, and
I'll just say it this way the way the same
way I started it is that it is not enough
to just think that government is the problem We individuals.
The general public needs to be aware that we cling
to things that make us feel secure, and when we
(23:52):
do that at a toxic level, when we go along
with doing the wrong thing just because it makes us
feel secure, confuses the whole system. So we as individuals
who talk to each other, need to remind each other
all the time about what makes sense and what does
not make sense.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
This has been a rebroadcast of an earlier episode.
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