October 9, 2024 • 49 mins
This week we're covering the commander bans from sept 23 as well as the aftermath that has led to the collapse of the commander advisory group
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of well gaming news and everything that's going on here
in Lockaloot. On September twenty third, we had a massive
commander ban announcement for Magic to Gathering, one that shook
the community, one that caused a lot of things to
happen with it, for four items being banned. We're quite
surprised at the shock that happened in the community and
(00:22):
the aftermath and everything that happened with it. Now, well,
they think they should be banned. There's some information we're
going to be going through them, one v one of
one v one one on one talking about the Commander
Council's reason for them to be banned, Why I think
they should be banned, Why I think they shouldn't be banned,
(00:43):
because there's both sides of this argument. Why I think
they settled on these specifically, and of course the aftermath
from the community and everything that has happened since we
totally didn't wait a week could have to cover this
because we were going to com Saltly Comic Con or
(01:04):
fan X as it's supposed to be called. You know,
there was a big lawsuit from Comic Con. It's a
long story. We'll get into it in the stream. I'm
your host, Isaiah, I'm Jacob. This is locked flute, all right.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Before we go on, you said one v one then
one on one. Those are the same terms.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
No, No, one v one has a more challenging vibe
to it when you know it's one v one me
bro versus.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'm pretty you were looking for was one by one?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yes, that was the phrase I was looking for. And
this is live so we can't change anything. But yes, yes,
that was the phrase I'm looking for. We're gonna start, actually, no,
I want to start with the easy one. I was
gonna start with Manacrypt. The four items that were banned
were Manacrypt, Jeweled Lotus, Nadu, winged Wisdom, and Dockside Extortionist.
I'm actually gonna start with Nadu here and why he
(01:57):
was banned?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Nah do.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay, what do you mean? Why was not do banned?
What creatures you can not do? Three man a cost
flying three four? When creatures you control, we have whenever
they come to the target of spellerability, reveil the top
card of your deck. If it's a land card, put
it on the battlefield. Otherwise put it into your hand.
This ability triggers only twice each sure that is twice
(02:21):
per creature, not twice. And how decks are normally built
is you just run a crap ton of can trips
and a crap ton of abilities that target, whether it
be triggered abilities, whether it be activated abilities. You're just
trying to trip that Nadu stuff to get some advantage. Now,
the reason why the i r C said that it
(02:45):
should be banned not who was the easiest one? Na
who has been ejected from multiple formats, and it's this
is their words. I'm going to be just reading their
quote here for what it is, and then we'll talk
about it. Nadhu has been ejected from multiple formats at
this point. It's no surprise that we took a close
(03:05):
look at it for Commander. Sometimes usually problematic cards and
other formats oco companions are fine for Commander, but our
observations of NAWD suggest its inherent play pattern is going
to cause problems. Part of the problem is the way
in which Nadu wins, where it takes a really long
time to do non deterministic sequences that can't be shortcut
(03:26):
and might even fizzle out. These aren't dedicated combo lines
that you have built a deck around. Dropping Nadu into
a normal semic deck still runs the risk of grinding
the game down to a slog of resource accrewal. It
interacts badly with cards that are staples of casual play,
lightning griefs notably, meaning decks get that it gets thrown
(03:47):
into without abuse intent. Without abuse intent can still cause
a situation where the player is monopolizing all the time
in the game. That is not an experience we want
to risk. So NADU gets itself another ban. Let me
let me break that down. So when it's talking about
non deterministic combos, what that means is that Nado when
(04:11):
not do comes into play as a commander or onto
the field in commander and he starts to go off,
you can't guarantee the win because you're relying on where
draws getting those lands.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Isn't that what cascade does.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It's non deterministic in a different way. This one takes forever.
With Cascade, you can shortcut it and say I cascade twice.
I'm just gonna reveal until I hit it, and then
you just quickly do that. And it's also a cast trigger.
This is just an ability target. There's no way of
shortcutting a calm una trigger. You have to go through
the full trigger. You know, I equip this target this okay,
(04:47):
I reveal the top. It's a land. Put it on
the field. Oh it's not a land. I put it
into my hand. You have to repeat that process with
every time. Now, and that's a non deterministic combo. Now,
nondeterministic combos Jake mentioned itself with cass Gate is in
itself does exist. The issue is na do itself is
a nondeterministic comba. Every time Nadu comes into play, it
(05:12):
is gone. Yes, and there are cards. It mentioned explicitly.
Lightning griefs so when you equip a creature with an equipment,
it targets that creature, okay, which means it triggers Nadu. Now,
Lightning Grieves says it's equipped cost is zero, which means
you can literally just equip it to every creature twice
(05:32):
for free and combo off with Nadu. Yeah, that's that's
gonna grind the game down to a slog where every
turn I do this twenty times, I do this five times,
I do this ten times.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So I could see her being banned and him being
banned as a commander.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I actually don't know if Nadu's a him or her.
I just feel like he has that himbo energy.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So I could see it being banned as a commander.
But in the ninety nine it wouldn't be horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
In the ninety nine it won't. It wonn't cause as
many problems as before, but it can still cause the
same problem. It's just not repeated not It was a
threat you have to deal with when it hits the field.
The first thing to target na do should be a
killed spell.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
There's a lot of stuff that in Commander that does
that really, And Al Drozi Titan shows up, you target
it immediately.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, but not his three mana Yeah, and Al Jazi
Titan shows up at the end of the game. This
shows up at the beginning. This can be a problem
for games that don't run a lot of interaction.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So honestly, I would say it should be banned as
a commander, but not in the ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
We'll get into that because there's no separate commander bandless
band as commander. We'll get into that later.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
There used to be. There used to be.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I think I argue that there still should be. I
think not eve's fine. In the ninety nine. It's similar
to like Oco, where it's a problem but it can
be dealt with.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah, it'll get you ahead in the early game.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And we have the tools to deal with a naw
doo and commander. Yeah, we do not have the tools
to repeatedly deal with a naw do and commander. Now,
do hits the field, you should kill spell it. That's
that's just the end of the story. And if you
don't want to trip the Nado, you should boardwipe. It's like,
we have enough removal and enough non targeted removal and
enough targeted removal that it's like, Okay, if you're playing
(07:25):
a decent game of Commander, this hits the field, one
of the other three players counter spells, boardwipes kill spells, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Or if not, within three turns, they're gonna counter spell.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And there when they banned this, they were considering the
player who's monopolizing the time. Now, somebody who's quick with Nadu.
I honestly think quick with Nadu. It's it's the same
kind of combo player problems. You have to cast the spell,
you have to target the creature, then you have to
reveal and that that takes a long time. I understand
(07:58):
that time thing. Honest I do believe commander clocks should
be a thing where like players don't durdle around. They've
only got so much time to play their turn.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
That way the combo players. It hurts the combo players.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Okay, but not isn't she a combo player?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yes, but I'm a fast combo player. I talk fast,
I play fast. I'm a fast combo player. Now not
to itself. Yeah, I honestly did he deserve the band? Yes?
And no. We have the tools to deal with him.
They're very worried about about time management. It's like, okay, commander,
(08:40):
if you're worried about time management, you better start banning
all combo decks because combo decks are notorious. They're phrases.
You better bring a coloring book for your opponents. Yeah,
I don't think Nadhu deserved the band for just this reason.
I think I think he deserve Bann as commander, which
(09:02):
should still be a thing. Honestly, I do believe that
should still be a thing. But I'm still iffy they
should have let him have more time and commander. And
I'm not just saying that because right before the band,
I ordered a Nadu for my Tribal Bird deck. I'm
not just saying that because of that Partly because of
that part. The other problem is I don't think we
(09:23):
have enough data to say not Who's going to be
a problem.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah. True, And not only that, but it might change
depending on Wizard of the Coast.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
We're gonna talk about that later too. I know I
want to go through the cars, but yeah, no do.
I just feel like we need more data. I don't
have enough information about whether he should be banned. Now.
The other cards that were banned, Oh boy are they spicy.
(09:54):
Let's talk Manacrypt.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Legitimately, if you could afford it, you would have it
in your deck. Don't you have one in your deck?
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I sold it before the band?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Oh you did you? Also?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I'm gonna know I had no knowledge of the band.
I just sold it because I was taking apart my
CEDH deck.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I knew you had a deck that you ran it.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, it was in my CEDH deck. Manicrypt coming down
for no Manna on turn one. It's quite possible to
have the explosive start of Manacrypt into a signet or
talisman land and another signet, leaving the player untapping five
mana on turn two. In games going over twelve churns,
the accumulated threat of damage from mancrypt provides a reasonable
(10:35):
counterbalance for explosive effect, but when you are snowballing to
a turn six to eight win, it is a meaningless drawback.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Oh, this is funny. So they legitimately banned one card
for slowing the game down too much, ban this one
for speeding it up too much.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
No, no, you're right, And this is why they actually
put these all into a They put these all into
the same kind of reasoning. The philosophy of Commander prioritizes
creativity in one of the ways we have historically reflected
that in the rules and ban lists to encourage a
slower pace to the game than traditional formats. This gives
(11:19):
dex time and space to develop and do things differently.
We have a goal to make it easier for players
who enjoy slower, more social games to have an environment
for them to explore. Commander has always been potential for
someone to get out to a fast start and be
the first arch villain in the game, but that advantage
has been balanced by having multiple players gunning for them.
At once. It happens. In the past few years, notably
(11:41):
since Strixhaven, we have seen a pattern of stronger mid
game cards that allow the player who skips past the
early game to snowball their advantage straight through to the win.
Occasionally games like that are fine, but it shouldn't be common,
and we're taking steps to bring that frequency down a
bit by banning three of the most explosive plays in
the format. Did Mancrypt deserve it under their rules? Yes,
(12:12):
I would say they deserved it. I deserved it. Does
Mancrypt really deserve it? Sure, it's super explosive. But the
thing about Maniccrypt, and the thing about these kind of
games is they're worry about somebody snowballing the game. Doesn't
(12:34):
take into account the churn zero discussion.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, I mean you look at it. Okay, they start
with three man at the beginning of the game. That's
a rare chance. I mean, for you to have Manicrypt
in your opening hand with MANNA isn't gonna be very likely.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
You have Eaten in your opening hand with MANA.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, but you have an ninety nine cards.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That's not taking into account tutors or anything like that.
And in CEDH this card does come out quite a
bit because you have Mani Vaults, you have Manacrypt, you
have Solar Ring, you have Dueled Lotus, you have mox Opal,
you have you have a couple of moxes. I would
(13:24):
argue Manacrypt is one of the strongest cards in the format.
Now they're reasoning, I say, yes, the cons are. People
complained about it, and I understand where the controversy comes.
Because this is where we have to start talking about
the controversy of these cards, and we'll go into it
in depth a little bit later, but I want to
discuss just briefly what happened when this was ban. People
(13:45):
were not mad that this was banned, Okay, they were
mad that it was banned because they lost the price
they have to switch the cards out, and this kind
of goes for all three. This is why I'm covering
it with the first one. People were mad because Wizards
of the Coast knew this was coming. They knew these
cards were being looked at for a potential ban. Okay,
(14:08):
Wizards of the Coast knew that these cards were being
looked at for a potential ban, and they still put
them in product as chase cards. Manacrypt is is it maniccrypt. Yeah,
Manacrypt was in excellent Manacrypt. They put these impacts for
people to chase, knowing that a ban may be coming.
(14:36):
That's some scummy business right there.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, but bans change.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yes, bands change, and not only that, but it was
being looked at for a ban. Yeah, they didn't know
completely if it was banned because the ir C is
completely they don't control the Yeah. Okay, now maniccrypt to
Mana to Mana, and I understand why they banned it,
(15:03):
because yes, that is good. That is really good and
can lead to some very explosive place for en It's
free Manta, it's so quick in Freemana. I'm like, okay,
if you look at it other formats, I'm gonna make
this argument here that I haven't seen people make. If
you look at other formats and you see the top
decks that have the top decks in the format. Okay,
(15:26):
once they are winning the tournaments, if there is a
card that is in every deck other than a land,
this is the coast starts looking at it and going,
is that KRD a problem? Right in modern in legacy?
(15:47):
If they look at a card and the top deck
always has say, I think the best example was Okay,
it's an old example. There's there's been many sins. Then
for one off the top of my head. OHK. They
start going, is this card broken? Is this not something
(16:07):
we can deal with? Well, okay, if we take that
example and lead it to Mana, put it to manacrypt.
I'm betting ninety nine percent of the EDH dex have
Manacrypt in it, which means manacrypt probably has about a
ninety nine percent win rate.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
The thing is, like I said, it's weird because the
card part is, it's just like other stuff artifacts. You
can deal with artifacts.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
But you cannot deal with an artifact thisserve. They're worried
about explosive turns, and I'm going, okay, I can see it.
I'm not sure this was the right approach. The turn
zero discussion is the right approach. Let's talk about another card.
Because Manacrypt is done to death, Let's talk about Old Lotus.
(17:03):
Juel Lotus was banned for a similar reason. Another card
that can give you five mana on turn two. Juel
Lotus does it without even needing a good hand. Though
you're restricted in what you can do with the mana
four and five man of commanders can pack a significant
punch nowadays, often drawing cards to make up for the
one shot manna and defensive abilities such as ward that
can't be interacted with early in the game. Okay, so
(17:23):
there their concern is people getting their commander out too
early mid game commanders like five, six, seven manic commanders
getting them out very early.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I struggle getting my four man of commander out.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
That that's kind of a you problem. We need to
look through your deck. That's a deck problem.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
No, I just struggle. I just my manna shuffle is horrible.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, he can't draw to save his life.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Juld Lotus was banned for a similar reason to Maniccrypt.
The three cards were banned for a similar reason to manocrypt. Okay,
so if they were banned due to a similar reason
to Manacrypt, what what do we uh, what do we
do with that?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So, if you're gonna ban both of these cards, isn't
that going to run the game extremely slow?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Well? That was the point that it's supposed to be
a slower game.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Okay, Yeah, but then you ban a card that slows
everything down.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
No, this doesn't you're talking noted. Yeah, Nadu didn't slow
down like games as a whole. They were They weren't
looking at game.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Length with na do.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
They were looking at turn length monopolizing time. So we
can discuss that later, Like the difference between game length
being getting short. That's been my complaint about Commander two
is that Commander game lengths have been getting shorter and
shorter and shorter, whereas churn lengths have beginning longer and
(18:51):
longer and longer. You know, I remember days when Commander
would go fifteen to twenty turns and that was a
good game. And nowadays we're we're killing each other by
round four, round five, round six. The game has just
gotten significantly faster. I think cards like this are part
of the problem. I think the strength of cards is rising.
(19:15):
Jeweled Lotus did it deserve it? Under their reasoning, I'd
say yes, it's Freemana, It's three Freemana. Honestly, it reminds
me of like a Black Lotus, which is also banned,
So I would say yes, because the similar cards to
(19:37):
it that are banned and have been banned for sometimes
sometimes due to their strength. I think Jewel Lotus did
deserve the band. Now people's argument against this are the
same argument they have with dock side, and we'll talk
about dock side because I think dock side situation is
a little bit different to Jeweled Lotus. Jeweled Lotus was
(20:01):
released in Commander Masters, so.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It's only able to be playing Commander.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Three manna of anyone color. Spend this only to cast
your commander. This was a commander only car.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So the thing is, like they were saying that they're
concerned about it being a being able to cast a five,
five to seven man of commander early game.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
They didn't say that I made that extrapolation. They were
worried about how fast you can get your commander out.
Can do with four and five man of commanders can
pack a significant punch nowadays.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So the thing is is, Okay, you have three mana,
you still would have to get a five for a
five MANA commander you would still have to have that
would still only be turned two.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, but that's still okay. If I got Tibbot out
on turn three, Okay, what would happen to the game, Well,
how many kill spells do I.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Have in mind?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I have, but Tivott has word two. You don't have
the mana at that point to deal with tivot which
means I run away with.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
The game, except for what was it? Uh Ward specifically
states that it can't be targeted. Right.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, it can be boardwide, but you're not going to
cast a boardwife on turn two or turn three. You
don't have the mana for.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
It, says the purpose, says the person who built a
pipe bomb Deck.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Ashley in the Pilgrim, there's this, as Maldhound puts it,
I gotta say it. You gotta have a certain amount
of balls to roll up to a table with ninety
nine cards and the ingredients to a ninety nine mountains
and the ingredients to a pipe bomb. Okay, but full
looks commander only card that got banned. Now, I think
(21:52):
this is a situation of Wizard of the right hand
not knowing what the left hand is doing. I don't
think Wizards discussed a card like this with the Commander
council when they were designing it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, the council has nothing to do with exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
This is the right hand not knowing what the left
hand is doing, and so these cards being designed this way,
I don't it deserves the band. Honestly. I'm like Jeweled
Lotus was a problem from the get go. Jeweled Lotus
was a problem. Three manna for free on turn one
means that you can get it out very fast. You
(22:28):
can get it out very aggressively. You can get an
aggressive commander out very fast. Say Jake, I manacrypt Jeweled
Lotus land I cast tivot. I can't castvot two manic commander.
I cast a six mana cost two manic commander. Something
like that. Well, guess what, I have a ton of manna.
(22:48):
Now I have a big creature out. I can swing.
My commander is out. I can do a lot of
things with it. If it has ward, I can defend it.
My combos start going very early. I understand this being
banned for explosive turns. This is another card that can
be fixed with the turn zero discussion, and I think
that needs to be is talked about by the Commander council.
(23:10):
Now dock Side Extortionist has a very We're not spending
a lot of time on Jewel Lotus because, in my
opinion opinion, jeld Lotus was one of the cars that
deserved it the most. Not to man, we need more
data Jewel Lotus. Oh yeah, no, this thing has been
a part.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
I think that's the fact that it's three mana. If
it was to mana, it would be it better.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
It's still a lotus. The issue is that Freeman. I
think to mana would be better and a little bit
more balanced. I don't think it would have been banned
for two mana. I think the three mana they were going,
it's a lotus. It's like black lotus. You sacrifice it,
you get three mana. I think it deserved it in
all honesty. Now, like I said, Dockside Extortionist has a
(23:57):
very same situation to Jeweled Lotus. Now Dockside Extortionist is
the only creature getting one of the two creatures getting
banned out of this group. It's uh when dock Side
extortion and just battle for the create x treasure tokens
where ex's the number of artifacts and enchantments your opponent controls.
(24:18):
We all know Dockside now Dockside Dockside isn't normally quite
as explosive in the early game, but can still go
man a positive on turn two and start getting generate
substantial treasures after that. It's been on the border for years.
We've shied away from acting in the past because the
card has scaled well with the power level of the table,
(24:41):
but it's a frequent contributor to more egregious snowballing starts. Now,
what they're talking about is one they've been This card
has been on their radar. Dockside has been on their
radar for years. I'm betting Dockside has been on their
radar since the deck released with him, because this is
(25:02):
the first card that was in a pre con. This
was in a Commander pre con deck, and not just
like Comagala Commanders. It was in Commander twenty eighteen, I
think it was twenty nineteen. It was in an actual
Commander deck. Now, I think they have a good point.
(25:24):
Dockside scales well with the power level of the table. Okay,
Dockside scales well with the power of the table. It does, honestly,
it really does scale well. Lower power tables aren't going
to be able to use Dockside nearly as efficiently as
(25:45):
high power tables because there's not going to be that
many artifacts and enchantments out very early. Yeah, the issue
is it can become abusive. It is Dockside any card,
but it can become very abasicly because it's an at trigger.
I start cloning I start flickering, this thing keeps producing
(26:07):
the artifacts. Oh so this one's hard.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I could say the same thing about doubling season.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Well yeah, but that that.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
They make.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And that's why I'm like, I'm on the fence. And
this is why I think the Commander Council has been
on the fence about this one being banned because it
does scale. Well, it can help you snowball early, but
it makes you the arch enemy very quickly. You get
a bunch of treasures, everyone just starts throwing.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Most of Commander is politics.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think here's the thing. I think we have a
similar problem with Ockside Extortionist that we do with Nado.
We don't have the data. They just banned two major
artifacts from the format. Decks are going to have to shift.
But like I said, this one, now, decks are gonna
(27:03):
have to shift. I'm on the fence about this one,
whether I think it should be banned or not.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's in the ninety nine, so you can't you can't
run into as commander.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, it's iffy. It's like, Okay, yes, it can lead
to some snowballing problems, but.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So can almost any token do.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, but you're also not gonna see. This is why
I'm also like, h this is why the aftermarket controls
Commander is because Dockside is a seventy eighty dollars card.
It's not going in every deck. Yeah it's not. It's
not going in every deck. It's just there. And so
(27:43):
I'm like, Okay, well Dockside is just kind of there.
I think we should have seen where the chips lay
once they're done with the bands, with the with manacrypt,
and see where the chips fall. I don't think Dockside
was too much of a problem.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And it's no more of a problem than like I said, uh,
doubling season. Doubling season is a problem because yeah, it's extremely.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Powerful, but it's not going in every deck. You only
get it in token docks and the turns zero conversation.
And this is where I'm going with this, and we've
we've said multiple the terms zero conversation is very important.
Now dock Side, I don't think it should be mated.
I think we need more data. I think we should
see how much of a problem it is when the
(28:31):
artifacts are removed. When when when the very very early
turned artifacts get dealt with like manacrypt, like Jeweled lotus.
Once they got dealt with, I'd like to see where
Dockside falls and maybe they need an emergency band after that.
But I'm like, Dockside skills well with the table. You
don't really need and if it becomes a problem at
(28:52):
the table, it's kind of the player's job to deal
with it. Yeah, it's another thing that it has no protection.
We can kill spell it.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Of our games end up going, well, he's a bigger
threat than I am.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well, not just he's a bigger threat than I am.
That is a threat. Does anybody have a kill spell?
Same way I have a board. Bye, we start dealing
with each other, we start playing the game. These things
get dealt with when you play the game. It's almost
like the non They're looking at the non interaction tables
and saying, if there was no interaction, these would be
a problem, and I'm like, okay, but I have interaction.
I have a ton of interaction. This thing has no protection.
(29:27):
I can shock this thing and it dies, and sure, yeah,
there's no I honestly don't think Dockside deserved it. I
think Dockside needs to be one of the bands they
look at. Okay, now we talked about this a little bit,
and I think this is where we need to get
(29:48):
into the discussion turn zero. Can we talk about turn
zero and how important it is to balance things out?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I have not I've never played a turn zero deck against.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
One or not turn zero decks, the turn zero conversation,
the conversation that we always have before we break out
the decks. What power level are we playing at? Are
we playing fives? Six? Is the it's hard number. I
think it's super important your commander games need to have
(30:20):
that churn zero conversation because if you're not having that
turn zero conversation, your game's not gonna end well. I'm
just saying your game's not gonna end well because somebody's
gonna pull out their CDH dex, someone's gonna pull out
a enoughgraded Preca, and everyone's gonna get run over. That
We tend to self balance our games by going what
(30:41):
power level do we play? I've got fives, I got six's,
I got seven's, I got eight, so I got nines.
Now that is a super important conversation to HAVEPP how
strong is your deck? Yeah? And and in tournaments that
can't be done, which is I think why I R
C banned these cars. Is because in tournaments you can't
have power level discussion. In tournaments, it.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Is everybody brings their most.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Fend for yourselves. Maybe maybe you're saying, this is a
casual tournament, so people don't bring their c but people
are gonna bring some strong decks. I mean it's up
to the tournament organizers to really balance the casual with
it with the powerful playing with power. I joke. I
joke that me and Jake do nothing but play with power.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I don't even know what power though my decks are.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Jake has some strong decks. We joke that because we
know how to build decks, because we've spent so much
time playing the game, and I know how to build
a deck so well. I am always playing with power.
The community that I had played with for the longest time,
because I knew the game very well but didn't have
any money to play the game, I was known as
the Lord of Jink. I found the weirdest cards that
(31:48):
would dirt cheap, I made them work. It was so stupid.
Once I started playing with Power and started having money
to actually play the cards I wanted, it was like, okay,
now I'm playing. Now the Lord of synergy because I
can put cards together so efficiently. This card works with
this card, this card works with this card. My deck
is built around synergy. I started playing stuff into any
(32:11):
Commander Salt. If you want to know how salty your
deck is, that's great. Started playing it in and I'm like,
all my decks have an A plus and synergy because
my deck's all works it really well together. Now that
kind of discussion comes into play in the Turn zero.
We got to talk about the aftermath though as well.
We're already thirty minutes in so the podcast we don't
(32:33):
have as much time the aftermath to these.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Cards, backlash to this band crap.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I have never seen a worse backlash. I've never seen
a worse backlash. These bands split the community. You had
three factions, you had it deserved to be bad, it
did not deserve to be banned and I don't care.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
And it depended on the card. Yeah, because they they
changed depending.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
It was very much like everyone. But yeah, I deserve it.
They're like so mad about these four bands. And then
they look at the three bands their dock side, uh
Jeweled and man Crypt and then they look at they
looked at Nadu and went you deserved it. The community
has like been like, okay, yeah, no, I can see Nadu.
(33:26):
He's been banned in so many other things. He's a problem.
He kind of deserved it.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And then the people that are mad about man Crypt
are the ones who play it and lost.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, and it's lost so much money when it crashed.
Fun fact, the prices are climbing back up. I'm not
surprised it crashed out of that knee jerk reaction and
now it's going back up. That's how this whole thing works.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Thing is they're gonna go back up. They're not gonna
hit where they were.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, people are thinking it's where Okay. The backlash was
so bad the Commander Council started getting death threats and
the people on the council who voted against it were getting.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Death threats, like we voted against the Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
We voted against this. It got so bad. Now, let
me explain the Commander Council to everybody. The Commander Council
are made up by players, not card designers, not not
Wizards of the Coast employees. Players, the ones who made
the game, the ones who designed edh and helped to
(34:34):
control it going forward, standardized things, getting Commander going. The
Commander Council have day jobs. They are not full time
magic players. They are not.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
They have no connection to Wizards of.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
The Coast exactly. And they got death threats because the
cards were released as chase cards, because they were in
pre cons. They went, we don't control any of this.
We didn't ask them to put these and decks, we
didn't ask them to design these cards.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
We have no say of what they did exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And people people bullied them relentlessly to the point where
they stepped down. The Commander Council left. The aftermath to
this situation was so bad that the Commander Council went
to Wizards of the Coast and said, we are handing
it over to you.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Here, here's what is on our band list. Here is
what the reasons why take over.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Go through what we've done. I hate that this happened
because we turned the most popular magic game, the most
popular format made by the players for the players, has
not been turned over to a soulless corporation.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Which legitimately when they look through the band list and
they go when this, when Wizard of the Coast goes
through all of this They are not gonna think of
how does this affect the gameplay? No, they're gonna think
of how can it maximize my profits?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Exactly? The game is now about money. Commander is now
about money. The backlash to this, the fact that you
guys blamed people who didn't deserve it, the fact that
you cause these kind of problems is I'm like, how,
how how did it get so bad that you guys,
(36:29):
you forced them to step down, you sent death threats,
you caused problems, You blieve people who didn't deserve it.
People people that have been fans of this game, people
who are responsible for your favorite format, the most popular format,
saying I can't take it anymore, please help.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
These were the guys who pretty much started Commander.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
And I don't know, I don't know who's currently on
the Commander Council.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
But it was the council who created it, or.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
The ones or their successors. Yes, people who have been
placed on this to run Commander. From the fans perspective,
they have not been focused on the health of the format.
They've been focused on the fun of the format. And
it's like, oh great, now you're gonna hand it to
people who care about the health of the format.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
The thing is is even when it comes to uh
still having this the deck that you build with these
cards at it. Okay, there's a there's another format that
you can play it in. There is a commander Uh
what is it called? Where you where there's pretty much
(37:44):
no band.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
List, no band commander. Yeah, it's just yeah, I can
run no band list commander games.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
If they want to. This is specifically standardizers rules. Yeah,
standardized rules for like the.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Oh what are they called. I'm completely having a brain part,
but the for tournaments, the casual tournaments. That's what these
bands are for.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, okay, it's gonna be more fun if we don't
have these cards in our deck.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
So you know that war the people who are hosting
these tournaments can take and go, okay, this is the
power level that we're playing at. Nothing over this.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Now there is a discussion about that, And you're actually
bringing me to the last thing that we're gonna talk about.
Commander is being taken over by Wizards of the Coast.
They're taking a look at the format. Do you know
what they're doing. They're introducing a bracket system cards within
four brackets of power okay, and they're saying these cards
are in these four brackets, Well, guess what armageddon's like
(38:48):
in a tier four? And it's like, okay, Now it
helps standardize something that I think the Iris should have done.
We are going to standardize the Urn zero discussion. I
think that's something that needed to happen because everyone can
say their decks is seven. Jake's deck is a seven.
It has primal vigor doubling season every token doubler you've heard,
(39:10):
it has atherflex reservoir. It's a It generates scute swarms
like God knows how many they are and where they
came from.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Because the thing is is my deck has two different
win but it's scenarios, but it takes forever to get going.
But it's either you kill them with ether flex reservoir
because you gained so much life, or you kill them
with tokens.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
But Jake's is still a seven. My Jake, is my
tivot a seven? No, really, I think my tivot's a seven.
But here's that pillow fort, that stupid thing that all helps. Here,
here's why the discussion has never been centered. Is is
mine about a seven? Yeah? Okay, in my opinion, it's
a seven because in my head, I go, okay, it's
(39:57):
right below, it's one step below. It's a seven or eight.
Because it's one step below CDH, I'm like one to Well,
actually no, because I keep CDH on a separate tree
of my one to tens. Long story, but they're standardizing it.
They're saying these cards are in these brackets. I think
they're on the right track.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, I think that's going to change your decks.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Then, I think I think it'll standardize it. We can go, oh, wow,
my deck actually has a lot of Tier four so wow,
my deck has is actually pretty strong. I think, honestly,
this is something that the Commander Council should have done
to standardized this discussion.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, especially for it would help tournament hosts.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah, because they go, okay, no Tier four cards.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
The thing is is in a deck that has one
or two Tier four cards, and.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
They discussed that. In fact, when Wizards of the Coast
released their statement about this, they said, I can be
when you're discussion, you can say I'm running a Tier
four deck, but without these two cards, my deck would
be Tier two. I'm running only one card that's Tier
four or two cards that are Tier four. Yeah, without
these it is tier two, and it's like that is
(41:06):
a discussion to have.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
So that's the hard part is that means that so
instead of tiers, we have a number system already established.
One to ten. Okay, you introduce the tier system so
that way, Okay, these tier fours, depending on how many
you have, increases your power by a decimal point.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, they can standardize this. I honestly think you should. Actually,
you know how people have talked about using this tier system.
Your deck can only include this many points point value.
So your deck you can put your Tier four cards
in there, but your debt cannot be over three hundred points.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Well, that's just it. Like I would say, we have
one to ten on our power ratio. That's how we
tend to do it. Like mine the seven. Okay, if
they standardize the tier system and say these are all
tier cards, okay, I have two tier cards to tier
four cards, Okay, that increases mine. That would put mine
at a seven point five or seven point four.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
I think the standard possession is smart. I think they're
going on the right track. I think Wizards wants to
win the community back. I do not believe they will
do it in the long run. I do not trust Corpse.
I do not trust the suits that they have running
the game. I think the tier system was brilliant. I
think they should have brought it up with the Commander
Council and said, hey, don't step down, introduce this.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Yeah, I honestly don't think that the councilor should have
stepped down. What should have happened is Wizards of the
Coach should have discussed with the Council of Hey, what's
going to be too powerful for us to release?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Or or I've got something even better. Commander Council, you're
now department at Wizards of the Coast. We would like
to purchase the Commander Council.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
The problem is, here is a ten year contract.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
You will all be employed, you will have run of
the The Commander Council could set their demands and be like, yes,
we will join Wizards of the Coast under these conditions.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
That's the problem. They're still under the control of Wizards
of the Coast. That is where everybody's gonna have the issue.
Having them as an independent but still having the communication
between them between the two is what needed to happen.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
What are Wizards of the Coast Design Liaison help help
the Commander council months like say, say the Commander Council
is like, okay, we have before any set, before any
set announces during the design phase, we meet with the
design team once a month or so and we discussed the.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Whole council sign on signed non disclosures. Ye, they would
not be nice thing for getting. Yeah, they would not
be allowed to release any of the information. It's in
discussion and.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
They can help kind of shape it without being a
part of it and be like, Okay, I think this
will be a problem, Commander, this will be definitely be
a problem. Commander. They'd look at NADU and go, what
the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Ban this?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Ban it, like they'd release this it is banned.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
In every format. Ban it.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
But taking it over by Wizards because was not the
right thing to do. I think they were backed into
a corner when their community churned on them, when vocal
vocal minority of the community, not the whole community. I
want to put this out. I want to make this
very clear. This was not the entire community. No, the
(44:45):
discussion around these died out very quickly. The vocal minority,
the investors who saw this and saw they lost thousands
because their maniccrypts weren't worth anything. When the ones who
went and bought twenty mancres or fifty nadus and suddenly
saw the prices crash or have thirty extortionists when they
(45:06):
saw that go down, and they got mad, and their
knee jerk reaction was to threaten people. Honestly, at that moment,
the Magic community failed.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
The thing is is, personally I would have looked at
him and went, well, what happens when you buy a stock.
You're taking a chance.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
But these are not meant to be investments. That's the
big thing. That's my clap back to those people. No
card game is supposed to be an investment, exactly. No
card game is an investment.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Because it is a game. If the company fails, the
game no longer exists.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
I honestly believe that I want the Commander Council to
know that the community is on their side. I want
them to know that we didn't turn on them, that
it was a vocal minority. And then they got the
threats that they did not deserve. And I think it's
(46:05):
too late. I think Commander is now in the hands
of Wizards of the Coast and we have to see
how that plays out, and we have to see where
the cards fall. Right now, I don't like to end
my episodes on it down. I don't think we have
a choice here because at this moment there is no upside.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, we we hope that the Council changes their mind
and talks to Wizards of the Coast and sees to
see if they can work something out. They might even
look at Wizards of the Coast idea of the tier
list and go, that's actually a good idea, and that
would help.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, but they handed it over already. Yeah, I'm gonna
say this in the infinite words of Padmeyamidala. That's Leah.
This is how liberty dies to thunderous applause. Yeah, people
were happy that they took it over. I don't agree
(47:05):
with them. I think Commander is going to see a
massive change, and I don't know if it's for the good.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's gonna it's gonna change. And the stuff that they
were trying to prevent. The Council was trying to prevent
of games being too slow or too fast. Games are
going to be too fast. Look at what happened. Look
at what's the magic formatute the where you can legitimately
(47:34):
win and turn zero.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
That's legacy. Modern has turned one wins, turn two wins.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
That's what's gonna happen. It's gonna get faster, Commander, Legitimately,
they're profits overplay. To increase their profits, they would release,
they would remove a bunch of cards from the band list,
and there will be a bunch of Turn one.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah. I don't agree that Wizards of the Coast is
going to do well because they do not have any trope.
Nobody trusts Wizards. Nobody trusts Wizards of the Coast. They
have turned on their community so many times in different
games too, not just in D and D, in Magic
the Gathering. We've seen it with all the products.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
This No, look what happened with Hero Escape.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Wizards of the Coast didn't make Hero Escape, No, they didn't.
They partnered with them. They didn't make it.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
They partnered with them. But if I remember right, didn't
they purchase Hero Escape and then shut it down?
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Has before they sold it it has ro handed it
off to them, Yeah, and they shut it down yea,
because they did their D and D sets. They do
not have a track record with games. They do not
have a good track record with games Magic has been
their most long running one. I mean, that's everything that
we really got to talk about. I don't want to
keep ranting. I'm your host, Isaiah, I'm Jacob. We're lugging
(48:58):
out
Of well gaming news and everything that's going on here
in Lockaloot. On September twenty third, we had a massive
commander ban announcement for Magic to Gathering, one that shook
the community, one that caused a lot of things to
happen with it, for four items being banned. We're quite
surprised at the shock that happened in the community and
(00:22):
the aftermath and everything that happened with it. Now, well,
they think they should be banned. There's some information we're
going to be going through them, one v one of
one v one one on one talking about the Commander
Council's reason for them to be banned, Why I think
they should be banned, Why I think they shouldn't be banned,
(00:43):
because there's both sides of this argument. Why I think
they settled on these specifically, and of course the aftermath
from the community and everything that has happened since we
totally didn't wait a week could have to cover this
because we were going to com Saltly Comic Con or
(01:04):
fan X as it's supposed to be called. You know,
there was a big lawsuit from Comic Con. It's a
long story. We'll get into it in the stream. I'm
your host, Isaiah, I'm Jacob. This is locked flute, all right.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Before we go on, you said one v one then
one on one. Those are the same terms.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
No, No, one v one has a more challenging vibe
to it when you know it's one v one me
bro versus.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'm pretty you were looking for was one by one?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yes, that was the phrase I was looking for. And
this is live so we can't change anything. But yes, yes,
that was the phrase I'm looking for. We're gonna start, actually, no,
I want to start with the easy one. I was
gonna start with Manacrypt. The four items that were banned
were Manacrypt, Jeweled Lotus, Nadu, winged Wisdom, and Dockside Extortionist.
I'm actually gonna start with Nadu here and why he
(01:57):
was banned?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Nah do.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay, what do you mean? Why was not do banned?
What creatures you can not do? Three man a cost
flying three four? When creatures you control, we have whenever
they come to the target of spellerability, reveil the top
card of your deck. If it's a land card, put
it on the battlefield. Otherwise put it into your hand.
This ability triggers only twice each sure that is twice
(02:21):
per creature, not twice. And how decks are normally built
is you just run a crap ton of can trips
and a crap ton of abilities that target, whether it
be triggered abilities, whether it be activated abilities. You're just
trying to trip that Nadu stuff to get some advantage. Now,
the reason why the i r C said that it
(02:45):
should be banned not who was the easiest one? Na
who has been ejected from multiple formats, and it's this
is their words. I'm going to be just reading their
quote here for what it is, and then we'll talk
about it. Nadhu has been ejected from multiple formats at
this point. It's no surprise that we took a close
(03:05):
look at it for Commander. Sometimes usually problematic cards and
other formats oco companions are fine for Commander, but our
observations of NAWD suggest its inherent play pattern is going
to cause problems. Part of the problem is the way
in which Nadu wins, where it takes a really long
time to do non deterministic sequences that can't be shortcut
(03:26):
and might even fizzle out. These aren't dedicated combo lines
that you have built a deck around. Dropping Nadu into
a normal semic deck still runs the risk of grinding
the game down to a slog of resource accrewal. It
interacts badly with cards that are staples of casual play,
lightning griefs notably, meaning decks get that it gets thrown
(03:47):
into without abuse intent. Without abuse intent can still cause
a situation where the player is monopolizing all the time
in the game. That is not an experience we want
to risk. So NADU gets itself another ban. Let me
let me break that down. So when it's talking about
non deterministic combos, what that means is that Nado when
(04:11):
not do comes into play as a commander or onto
the field in commander and he starts to go off,
you can't guarantee the win because you're relying on where
draws getting those lands.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Isn't that what cascade does.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It's non deterministic in a different way. This one takes forever.
With Cascade, you can shortcut it and say I cascade twice.
I'm just gonna reveal until I hit it, and then
you just quickly do that. And it's also a cast trigger.
This is just an ability target. There's no way of
shortcutting a calm una trigger. You have to go through
the full trigger. You know, I equip this target this okay,
(04:47):
I reveal the top. It's a land. Put it on
the field. Oh it's not a land. I put it
into my hand. You have to repeat that process with
every time. Now, and that's a non deterministic combo. Now,
nondeterministic combos Jake mentioned itself with cass Gate is in
itself does exist. The issue is na do itself is
a nondeterministic comba. Every time Nadu comes into play, it
(05:12):
is gone. Yes, and there are cards. It mentioned explicitly.
Lightning griefs so when you equip a creature with an equipment,
it targets that creature, okay, which means it triggers Nadu. Now,
Lightning Grieves says it's equipped cost is zero, which means
you can literally just equip it to every creature twice
(05:32):
for free and combo off with Nadu. Yeah, that's that's
gonna grind the game down to a slog where every
turn I do this twenty times, I do this five times,
I do this ten times.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So I could see her being banned and him being
banned as a commander.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I actually don't know if Nadu's a him or her.
I just feel like he has that himbo energy.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So I could see it being banned as a commander.
But in the ninety nine it wouldn't be horrible.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
In the ninety nine it won't. It wonn't cause as
many problems as before, but it can still cause the
same problem. It's just not repeated not It was a
threat you have to deal with when it hits the field.
The first thing to target na do should be a
killed spell.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
There's a lot of stuff that in Commander that does
that really, And Al Drozi Titan shows up, you target
it immediately.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, but not his three mana Yeah, and Al Jazi
Titan shows up at the end of the game. This
shows up at the beginning. This can be a problem
for games that don't run a lot of interaction.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So honestly, I would say it should be banned as
a commander, but not in the ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
We'll get into that because there's no separate commander bandless
band as commander. We'll get into that later.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
There used to be. There used to be.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I think I argue that there still should be. I
think not eve's fine. In the ninety nine. It's similar
to like Oco, where it's a problem but it can
be dealt with.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah, it'll get you ahead in the early game.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And we have the tools to deal with a naw
doo and commander. Yeah, we do not have the tools
to repeatedly deal with a naw do and commander. Now,
do hits the field, you should kill spell it. That's
that's just the end of the story. And if you
don't want to trip the Nado, you should boardwipe. It's like,
we have enough removal and enough non targeted removal and
enough targeted removal that it's like, Okay, if you're playing
(07:25):
a decent game of Commander, this hits the field, one
of the other three players counter spells, boardwipes kill spells, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Or if not, within three turns, they're gonna counter spell.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And there when they banned this, they were considering the
player who's monopolizing the time. Now, somebody who's quick with Nadu.
I honestly think quick with Nadu. It's it's the same
kind of combo player problems. You have to cast the spell,
you have to target the creature, then you have to
reveal and that that takes a long time. I understand
(07:58):
that time thing. Honest I do believe commander clocks should
be a thing where like players don't durdle around. They've
only got so much time to play their turn.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
That way the combo players. It hurts the combo players.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Okay, but not isn't she a combo player?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yes, but I'm a fast combo player. I talk fast,
I play fast. I'm a fast combo player. Now not
to itself. Yeah, I honestly did he deserve the band? Yes?
And no. We have the tools to deal with him.
They're very worried about about time management. It's like, okay, commander,
(08:40):
if you're worried about time management, you better start banning
all combo decks because combo decks are notorious. They're phrases.
You better bring a coloring book for your opponents. Yeah,
I don't think Nadhu deserved the band for just this reason.
I think I think he deserve Bann as commander, which
(09:02):
should still be a thing. Honestly, I do believe that
should still be a thing. But I'm still iffy they
should have let him have more time and commander. And
I'm not just saying that because right before the band,
I ordered a Nadu for my Tribal Bird deck. I'm
not just saying that because of that Partly because of
that part. The other problem is I don't think we
(09:23):
have enough data to say not Who's going to be
a problem.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah. True, And not only that, but it might change
depending on Wizard of the Coast.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
We're gonna talk about that later too. I know I
want to go through the cars, but yeah, no do.
I just feel like we need more data. I don't
have enough information about whether he should be banned. Now.
The other cards that were banned, Oh boy are they spicy.
(09:54):
Let's talk Manacrypt.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Legitimately, if you could afford it, you would have it
in your deck. Don't you have one in your deck?
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I sold it before the band?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Oh you did you? Also?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I'm gonna know I had no knowledge of the band.
I just sold it because I was taking apart my
CEDH deck.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I knew you had a deck that you ran it.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, it was in my CEDH deck. Manicrypt coming down
for no Manna on turn one. It's quite possible to
have the explosive start of Manacrypt into a signet or
talisman land and another signet, leaving the player untapping five
mana on turn two. In games going over twelve churns,
the accumulated threat of damage from mancrypt provides a reasonable
(10:35):
counterbalance for explosive effect, but when you are snowballing to
a turn six to eight win, it is a meaningless drawback.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Oh, this is funny. So they legitimately banned one card
for slowing the game down too much, ban this one
for speeding it up too much.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
No, no, you're right, And this is why they actually
put these all into a They put these all into
the same kind of reasoning. The philosophy of Commander prioritizes
creativity in one of the ways we have historically reflected
that in the rules and ban lists to encourage a
slower pace to the game than traditional formats. This gives
(11:19):
dex time and space to develop and do things differently.
We have a goal to make it easier for players
who enjoy slower, more social games to have an environment
for them to explore. Commander has always been potential for
someone to get out to a fast start and be
the first arch villain in the game, but that advantage
has been balanced by having multiple players gunning for them.
At once. It happens. In the past few years, notably
(11:41):
since Strixhaven, we have seen a pattern of stronger mid
game cards that allow the player who skips past the
early game to snowball their advantage straight through to the win.
Occasionally games like that are fine, but it shouldn't be common,
and we're taking steps to bring that frequency down a
bit by banning three of the most explosive plays in
the format. Did Mancrypt deserve it under their rules? Yes,
(12:12):
I would say they deserved it. I deserved it. Does
Mancrypt really deserve it? Sure, it's super explosive. But the
thing about Maniccrypt, and the thing about these kind of
games is they're worry about somebody snowballing the game. Doesn't
(12:34):
take into account the churn zero discussion.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, I mean you look at it. Okay, they start
with three man at the beginning of the game. That's
a rare chance. I mean, for you to have Manicrypt
in your opening hand with MANNA isn't gonna be very likely.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
You have Eaten in your opening hand with MANA.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, but you have an ninety nine cards.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That's not taking into account tutors or anything like that.
And in CEDH this card does come out quite a
bit because you have Mani Vaults, you have Manacrypt, you
have Solar Ring, you have Dueled Lotus, you have mox Opal,
you have you have a couple of moxes. I would
(13:24):
argue Manacrypt is one of the strongest cards in the format.
Now they're reasoning, I say, yes, the cons are. People
complained about it, and I understand where the controversy comes.
Because this is where we have to start talking about
the controversy of these cards, and we'll go into it
in depth a little bit later, but I want to
discuss just briefly what happened when this was ban. People
(13:45):
were not mad that this was banned, Okay, they were
mad that it was banned because they lost the price
they have to switch the cards out, and this kind
of goes for all three. This is why I'm covering
it with the first one. People were mad because Wizards
of the Coast knew this was coming. They knew these
cards were being looked at for a potential ban. Okay,
(14:08):
Wizards of the Coast knew that these cards were being
looked at for a potential ban, and they still put
them in product as chase cards. Manacrypt is is it maniccrypt. Yeah,
Manacrypt was in excellent Manacrypt. They put these impacts for
people to chase, knowing that a ban may be coming.
(14:36):
That's some scummy business right there.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, but bans change.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yes, bands change, and not only that, but it was
being looked at for a ban. Yeah, they didn't know
completely if it was banned because the ir C is
completely they don't control the Yeah. Okay, now maniccrypt to
Mana to Mana, and I understand why they banned it,
(15:03):
because yes, that is good. That is really good and
can lead to some very explosive place for en It's
free Manta, it's so quick in Freemana. I'm like, okay,
if you look at it other formats, I'm gonna make
this argument here that I haven't seen people make. If
you look at other formats and you see the top
decks that have the top decks in the format. Okay,
(15:26):
once they are winning the tournaments, if there is a
card that is in every deck other than a land,
this is the coast starts looking at it and going,
is that KRD a problem? Right in modern in legacy?
(15:47):
If they look at a card and the top deck
always has say, I think the best example was Okay,
it's an old example. There's there's been many sins. Then
for one off the top of my head. OHK. They
start going, is this card broken? Is this not something
(16:07):
we can deal with? Well, okay, if we take that
example and lead it to Mana, put it to manacrypt.
I'm betting ninety nine percent of the EDH dex have
Manacrypt in it, which means manacrypt probably has about a
ninety nine percent win rate.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
The thing is, like I said, it's weird because the
card part is, it's just like other stuff artifacts. You
can deal with artifacts.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
But you cannot deal with an artifact thisserve. They're worried
about explosive turns, and I'm going, okay, I can see it.
I'm not sure this was the right approach. The turn
zero discussion is the right approach. Let's talk about another card.
Because Manacrypt is done to death, Let's talk about Old Lotus.
(17:03):
Juel Lotus was banned for a similar reason. Another card
that can give you five mana on turn two. Juel
Lotus does it without even needing a good hand. Though
you're restricted in what you can do with the mana
four and five man of commanders can pack a significant
punch nowadays, often drawing cards to make up for the
one shot manna and defensive abilities such as ward that
can't be interacted with early in the game. Okay, so
(17:23):
there their concern is people getting their commander out too
early mid game commanders like five, six, seven manic commanders
getting them out very early.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I struggle getting my four man of commander out.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
That that's kind of a you problem. We need to
look through your deck. That's a deck problem.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
No, I just struggle. I just my manna shuffle is horrible.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, he can't draw to save his life.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Juld Lotus was banned for a similar reason to Maniccrypt.
The three cards were banned for a similar reason to manocrypt. Okay,
so if they were banned due to a similar reason
to Manacrypt, what what do we uh, what do we
do with that?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
So, if you're gonna ban both of these cards, isn't
that going to run the game extremely slow?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Well? That was the point that it's supposed to be
a slower game.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Okay, Yeah, but then you ban a card that slows
everything down.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
No, this doesn't you're talking noted. Yeah, Nadu didn't slow
down like games as a whole. They were They weren't
looking at game.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Length with na do.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
They were looking at turn length monopolizing time. So we
can discuss that later, Like the difference between game length
being getting short. That's been my complaint about Commander two
is that Commander game lengths have been getting shorter and
shorter and shorter, whereas churn lengths have beginning longer and
(18:51):
longer and longer. You know, I remember days when Commander
would go fifteen to twenty turns and that was a
good game. And nowadays we're we're killing each other by
round four, round five, round six. The game has just
gotten significantly faster. I think cards like this are part
of the problem. I think the strength of cards is rising.
(19:15):
Jeweled Lotus did it deserve it? Under their reasoning, I'd
say yes, it's Freemana, It's three Freemana. Honestly, it reminds
me of like a Black Lotus, which is also banned,
So I would say yes, because the similar cards to
(19:37):
it that are banned and have been banned for sometimes
sometimes due to their strength. I think Jewel Lotus did
deserve the band. Now people's argument against this are the
same argument they have with dock side, and we'll talk
about dock side because I think dock side situation is
a little bit different to Jeweled Lotus. Jeweled Lotus was
(20:01):
released in Commander Masters, so.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It's only able to be playing Commander.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Three manna of anyone color. Spend this only to cast
your commander. This was a commander only car.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So the thing is, like they were saying that they're
concerned about it being a being able to cast a five,
five to seven man of commander early game.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
They didn't say that I made that extrapolation. They were
worried about how fast you can get your commander out.
Can do with four and five man of commanders can
pack a significant punch nowadays.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So the thing is is, Okay, you have three mana,
you still would have to get a five for a
five MANA commander you would still have to have that
would still only be turned two.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, but that's still okay. If I got Tibbot out
on turn three, Okay, what would happen to the game, Well,
how many kill spells do I.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Have in mind?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I have, but Tivott has word two. You don't have
the mana at that point to deal with tivot which
means I run away with.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
The game, except for what was it? Uh Ward specifically
states that it can't be targeted. Right.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, it can be boardwide, but you're not going to
cast a boardwife on turn two or turn three. You
don't have the mana for.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
It, says the purpose, says the person who built a
pipe bomb Deck.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Ashley in the Pilgrim, there's this, as Maldhound puts it,
I gotta say it. You gotta have a certain amount
of balls to roll up to a table with ninety
nine cards and the ingredients to a ninety nine mountains
and the ingredients to a pipe bomb. Okay, but full
looks commander only card that got banned. Now, I think
(21:52):
this is a situation of Wizard of the right hand
not knowing what the left hand is doing. I don't
think Wizards discussed a card like this with the Commander
council when they were designing it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, the council has nothing to do with exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
This is the right hand not knowing what the left
hand is doing, and so these cards being designed this way,
I don't it deserves the band. Honestly. I'm like Jeweled
Lotus was a problem from the get go. Jeweled Lotus
was a problem. Three manna for free on turn one
means that you can get it out very fast. You
(22:28):
can get it out very aggressively. You can get an
aggressive commander out very fast. Say Jake, I manacrypt Jeweled
Lotus land I cast tivot. I can't castvot two manic commander.
I cast a six mana cost two manic commander. Something
like that. Well, guess what, I have a ton of manna.
(22:48):
Now I have a big creature out. I can swing.
My commander is out. I can do a lot of
things with it. If it has ward, I can defend it.
My combos start going very early. I understand this being
banned for explosive turns. This is another card that can
be fixed with the turn zero discussion, and I think
that needs to be is talked about by the Commander council.
(23:10):
Now dock Side Extortionist has a very We're not spending
a lot of time on Jewel Lotus because, in my
opinion opinion, jeld Lotus was one of the cars that
deserved it the most. Not to man, we need more
data Jewel Lotus. Oh yeah, no, this thing has been
a part.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
I think that's the fact that it's three mana. If
it was to mana, it would be it better.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
It's still a lotus. The issue is that Freeman. I
think to mana would be better and a little bit
more balanced. I don't think it would have been banned
for two mana. I think the three mana they were going,
it's a lotus. It's like black lotus. You sacrifice it,
you get three mana. I think it deserved it in
all honesty. Now, like I said, Dockside Extortionist has a
(23:57):
very same situation to Jeweled Lotus. Now Dockside Extortionist is
the only creature getting one of the two creatures getting
banned out of this group. It's uh when dock Side
extortion and just battle for the create x treasure tokens
where ex's the number of artifacts and enchantments your opponent controls.
(24:18):
We all know Dockside now Dockside Dockside isn't normally quite
as explosive in the early game, but can still go
man a positive on turn two and start getting generate
substantial treasures after that. It's been on the border for years.
We've shied away from acting in the past because the
card has scaled well with the power level of the table,
(24:41):
but it's a frequent contributor to more egregious snowballing starts. Now,
what they're talking about is one they've been This card
has been on their radar. Dockside has been on their
radar for years. I'm betting Dockside has been on their
radar since the deck released with him, because this is
(25:02):
the first card that was in a pre con. This
was in a Commander pre con deck, and not just
like Comagala Commanders. It was in Commander twenty eighteen, I
think it was twenty nineteen. It was in an actual
Commander deck. Now, I think they have a good point.
(25:24):
Dockside scales well with the power level of the table. Okay,
Dockside scales well with the power of the table. It does, honestly,
it really does scale well. Lower power tables aren't going
to be able to use Dockside nearly as efficiently as
(25:45):
high power tables because there's not going to be that
many artifacts and enchantments out very early. Yeah, the issue
is it can become abusive. It is Dockside any card,
but it can become very abasicly because it's an at trigger.
I start cloning I start flickering, this thing keeps producing
(26:07):
the artifacts. Oh so this one's hard.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I could say the same thing about doubling season.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Well yeah, but that that.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
They make.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And that's why I'm like, I'm on the fence. And
this is why I think the Commander Council has been
on the fence about this one being banned because it
does scale. Well, it can help you snowball early, but
it makes you the arch enemy very quickly. You get
a bunch of treasures, everyone just starts throwing.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Most of Commander is politics.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think here's the thing. I think we have a
similar problem with Ockside Extortionist that we do with Nado.
We don't have the data. They just banned two major
artifacts from the format. Decks are going to have to shift.
But like I said, this one, now, decks are gonna
(27:03):
have to shift. I'm on the fence about this one,
whether I think it should be banned or not.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's in the ninety nine, so you can't you can't
run into as commander.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, it's iffy. It's like, Okay, yes, it can lead
to some snowballing problems, but.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So can almost any token do.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, but you're also not gonna see. This is why
I'm also like, h this is why the aftermarket controls
Commander is because Dockside is a seventy eighty dollars card.
It's not going in every deck. Yeah it's not. It's
not going in every deck. It's just there. And so
(27:43):
I'm like, Okay, well Dockside is just kind of there.
I think we should have seen where the chips lay
once they're done with the bands, with the with manacrypt,
and see where the chips fall. I don't think Dockside
was too much of a problem.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And it's no more of a problem than like I said, uh,
doubling season. Doubling season is a problem because yeah, it's extremely.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Powerful, but it's not going in every deck. You only
get it in token docks and the turns zero conversation.
And this is where I'm going with this, and we've
we've said multiple the terms zero conversation is very important.
Now dock Side, I don't think it should be mated.
I think we need more data. I think we should
see how much of a problem it is when the
(28:31):
artifacts are removed. When when when the very very early
turned artifacts get dealt with like manacrypt, like Jeweled lotus.
Once they got dealt with, I'd like to see where
Dockside falls and maybe they need an emergency band after that.
But I'm like, Dockside skills well with the table. You
don't really need and if it becomes a problem at
(28:52):
the table, it's kind of the player's job to deal
with it. Yeah, it's another thing that it has no protection.
We can kill spell it.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Of our games end up going, well, he's a bigger
threat than I am.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well, not just he's a bigger threat than I am.
That is a threat. Does anybody have a kill spell?
Same way I have a board. Bye, we start dealing
with each other, we start playing the game. These things
get dealt with when you play the game. It's almost
like the non They're looking at the non interaction tables
and saying, if there was no interaction, these would be
a problem, and I'm like, okay, but I have interaction.
I have a ton of interaction. This thing has no protection.
(29:27):
I can shock this thing and it dies, and sure, yeah,
there's no I honestly don't think Dockside deserved it. I
think Dockside needs to be one of the bands they
look at. Okay, now we talked about this a little bit,
and I think this is where we need to get
(29:48):
into the discussion turn zero. Can we talk about turn
zero and how important it is to balance things out?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I have not I've never played a turn zero deck against.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
One or not turn zero decks, the turn zero conversation,
the conversation that we always have before we break out
the decks. What power level are we playing at? Are
we playing fives? Six? Is the it's hard number. I
think it's super important your commander games need to have
(30:20):
that churn zero conversation because if you're not having that
turn zero conversation, your game's not gonna end well. I'm
just saying your game's not gonna end well because somebody's
gonna pull out their CDH dex, someone's gonna pull out
a enoughgraded Preca, and everyone's gonna get run over. That
We tend to self balance our games by going what
(30:41):
power level do we play? I've got fives, I got six's,
I got seven's, I got eight, so I got nines.
Now that is a super important conversation to HAVEPP how
strong is your deck? Yeah? And and in tournaments that
can't be done, which is I think why I R
C banned these cars. Is because in tournaments you can't
have power level discussion. In tournaments, it.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Is everybody brings their most.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Fend for yourselves. Maybe maybe you're saying, this is a
casual tournament, so people don't bring their c but people
are gonna bring some strong decks. I mean it's up
to the tournament organizers to really balance the casual with
it with the powerful playing with power. I joke. I
joke that me and Jake do nothing but play with power.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I don't even know what power though my decks are.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Jake has some strong decks. We joke that because we
know how to build decks, because we've spent so much
time playing the game, and I know how to build
a deck so well. I am always playing with power.
The community that I had played with for the longest time,
because I knew the game very well but didn't have
any money to play the game, I was known as
the Lord of Jink. I found the weirdest cards that
(31:48):
would dirt cheap, I made them work. It was so stupid.
Once I started playing with Power and started having money
to actually play the cards I wanted, it was like, okay,
now I'm playing. Now the Lord of synergy because I
can put cards together so efficiently. This card works with
this card, this card works with this card. My deck
is built around synergy. I started playing stuff into any
(32:11):
Commander Salt. If you want to know how salty your
deck is, that's great. Started playing it in and I'm like,
all my decks have an A plus and synergy because
my deck's all works it really well together. Now that
kind of discussion comes into play in the Turn zero.
We got to talk about the aftermath though as well.
We're already thirty minutes in so the podcast we don't
(32:33):
have as much time the aftermath to these.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Cards, backlash to this band crap.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I have never seen a worse backlash. I've never seen
a worse backlash. These bands split the community. You had
three factions, you had it deserved to be bad, it
did not deserve to be banned and I don't care.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
And it depended on the card. Yeah, because they they
changed depending.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
It was very much like everyone. But yeah, I deserve it.
They're like so mad about these four bands. And then
they look at the three bands their dock side, uh
Jeweled and man Crypt and then they look at they
looked at Nadu and went you deserved it. The community
has like been like, okay, yeah, no, I can see Nadu.
(33:26):
He's been banned in so many other things. He's a problem.
He kind of deserved it.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And then the people that are mad about man Crypt
are the ones who play it and lost.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, and it's lost so much money when it crashed.
Fun fact, the prices are climbing back up. I'm not
surprised it crashed out of that knee jerk reaction and
now it's going back up. That's how this whole thing works.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Thing is they're gonna go back up. They're not gonna
hit where they were.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well, people are thinking it's where Okay. The backlash was
so bad the Commander Council started getting death threats and
the people on the council who voted against it were getting.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Death threats, like we voted against the Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
We voted against this. It got so bad. Now, let
me explain the Commander Council to everybody. The Commander Council
are made up by players, not card designers, not not
Wizards of the Coast employees. Players, the ones who made
the game, the ones who designed edh and helped to
(34:34):
control it going forward, standardized things, getting Commander going. The
Commander Council have day jobs. They are not full time
magic players. They are not.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
They have no connection to Wizards of.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
The Coast exactly. And they got death threats because the
cards were released as chase cards, because they were in
pre cons. They went, we don't control any of this.
We didn't ask them to put these and decks, we
didn't ask them to design these cards.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
We have no say of what they did exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And people people bullied them relentlessly to the point where
they stepped down. The Commander Council left. The aftermath to
this situation was so bad that the Commander Council went
to Wizards of the Coast and said, we are handing
it over to you.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Here, here's what is on our band list. Here is
what the reasons why take over.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Go through what we've done. I hate that this happened
because we turned the most popular magic game, the most
popular format made by the players for the players, has
not been turned over to a soulless corporation.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Which legitimately when they look through the band list and
they go when this, when Wizard of the Coast goes
through all of this They are not gonna think of
how does this affect the gameplay? No, they're gonna think
of how can it maximize my profits?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Exactly? The game is now about money. Commander is now
about money. The backlash to this, the fact that you
guys blamed people who didn't deserve it, the fact that
you cause these kind of problems is I'm like, how,
how how did it get so bad that you guys,
(36:29):
you forced them to step down, you sent death threats,
you caused problems, You blieve people who didn't deserve it.
People people that have been fans of this game, people
who are responsible for your favorite format, the most popular format,
saying I can't take it anymore, please help.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
These were the guys who pretty much started Commander.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
And I don't know, I don't know who's currently on
the Commander Council.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
But it was the council who created it, or.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
The ones or their successors. Yes, people who have been
placed on this to run Commander. From the fans perspective,
they have not been focused on the health of the format.
They've been focused on the fun of the format. And
it's like, oh great, now you're gonna hand it to
people who care about the health of the format.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
The thing is is even when it comes to uh
still having this the deck that you build with these
cards at it. Okay, there's a there's another format that
you can play it in. There is a commander Uh
what is it called? Where you where there's pretty much
(37:44):
no band.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
List, no band commander. Yeah, it's just yeah, I can
run no band list commander games.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
If they want to. This is specifically standardizers rules. Yeah,
standardized rules for like the.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Oh what are they called. I'm completely having a brain part,
but the for tournaments, the casual tournaments. That's what these
bands are for.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, okay, it's gonna be more fun if we don't
have these cards in our deck.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
So you know that war the people who are hosting
these tournaments can take and go, okay, this is the
power level that we're playing at. Nothing over this.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Now there is a discussion about that, And you're actually
bringing me to the last thing that we're gonna talk about.
Commander is being taken over by Wizards of the Coast.
They're taking a look at the format. Do you know
what they're doing. They're introducing a bracket system cards within
four brackets of power okay, and they're saying these cards
are in these four brackets, Well, guess what armageddon's like
(38:48):
in a tier four? And it's like, okay, Now it
helps standardize something that I think the Iris should have done.
We are going to standardize the Urn zero discussion. I
think that's something that needed to happen because everyone can
say their decks is seven. Jake's deck is a seven.
It has primal vigor doubling season every token doubler you've heard,
(39:10):
it has atherflex reservoir. It's a It generates scute swarms
like God knows how many they are and where they
came from.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Because the thing is is my deck has two different
win but it's scenarios, but it takes forever to get going.
But it's either you kill them with ether flex reservoir
because you gained so much life, or you kill them
with tokens.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
But Jake's is still a seven. My Jake, is my
tivot a seven? No, really, I think my tivot's a seven.
But here's that pillow fort, that stupid thing that all helps. Here,
here's why the discussion has never been centered. Is is
mine about a seven? Yeah? Okay, in my opinion, it's
a seven because in my head, I go, okay, it's
(39:57):
right below, it's one step below. It's a seven or eight.
Because it's one step below CDH, I'm like one to Well,
actually no, because I keep CDH on a separate tree
of my one to tens. Long story, but they're standardizing it.
They're saying these cards are in these brackets. I think
they're on the right track.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, I think that's going to change your decks.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Then, I think I think it'll standardize it. We can go, oh, wow,
my deck actually has a lot of Tier four so wow,
my deck has is actually pretty strong. I think, honestly,
this is something that the Commander Council should have done
to standardized this discussion.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, especially for it would help tournament hosts.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah, because they go, okay, no Tier four cards.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
The thing is is in a deck that has one
or two Tier four cards, and.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
They discussed that. In fact, when Wizards of the Coast
released their statement about this, they said, I can be
when you're discussion, you can say I'm running a Tier
four deck, but without these two cards, my deck would
be Tier two. I'm running only one card that's Tier
four or two cards that are Tier four. Yeah, without
these it is tier two, and it's like that is
(41:06):
a discussion to have.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
So that's the hard part is that means that so
instead of tiers, we have a number system already established.
One to ten. Okay, you introduce the tier system so
that way, Okay, these tier fours, depending on how many
you have, increases your power by a decimal point.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, they can standardize this. I honestly think you should. Actually,
you know how people have talked about using this tier system.
Your deck can only include this many points point value.
So your deck you can put your Tier four cards
in there, but your debt cannot be over three hundred points.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Well, that's just it. Like I would say, we have
one to ten on our power ratio. That's how we
tend to do it. Like mine the seven. Okay, if
they standardize the tier system and say these are all
tier cards, okay, I have two tier cards to tier
four cards, Okay, that increases mine. That would put mine
at a seven point five or seven point four.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
I think the standard possession is smart. I think they're
going on the right track. I think Wizards wants to
win the community back. I do not believe they will
do it in the long run. I do not trust Corpse.
I do not trust the suits that they have running
the game. I think the tier system was brilliant. I
think they should have brought it up with the Commander
Council and said, hey, don't step down, introduce this.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Yeah, I honestly don't think that the councilor should have
stepped down. What should have happened is Wizards of the
Coach should have discussed with the Council of Hey, what's
going to be too powerful for us to release?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Or or I've got something even better. Commander Council, you're
now department at Wizards of the Coast. We would like
to purchase the Commander Council.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
The problem is, here is a ten year contract.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
You will all be employed, you will have run of
the The Commander Council could set their demands and be like, yes,
we will join Wizards of the Coast under these conditions.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
That's the problem. They're still under the control of Wizards
of the Coast. That is where everybody's gonna have the issue.
Having them as an independent but still having the communication
between them between the two is what needed to happen.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
What are Wizards of the Coast Design Liaison help help
the Commander council months like say, say the Commander Council
is like, okay, we have before any set, before any
set announces during the design phase, we meet with the
design team once a month or so and we discussed the.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Whole council sign on signed non disclosures. Ye, they would
not be nice thing for getting. Yeah, they would not
be allowed to release any of the information. It's in
discussion and.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
They can help kind of shape it without being a
part of it and be like, Okay, I think this
will be a problem, Commander, this will be definitely be
a problem. Commander. They'd look at NADU and go, what
the hell is this?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Ban this?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Ban it, like they'd release this it is banned.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
In every format. Ban it.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
But taking it over by Wizards because was not the
right thing to do. I think they were backed into
a corner when their community churned on them, when vocal
vocal minority of the community, not the whole community. I
want to put this out. I want to make this
very clear. This was not the entire community. No, the
(44:45):
discussion around these died out very quickly. The vocal minority,
the investors who saw this and saw they lost thousands
because their maniccrypts weren't worth anything. When the ones who
went and bought twenty mancres or fifty nadus and suddenly
saw the prices crash or have thirty extortionists when they
(45:06):
saw that go down, and they got mad, and their
knee jerk reaction was to threaten people. Honestly, at that moment,
the Magic community failed.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
The thing is is, personally I would have looked at
him and went, well, what happens when you buy a stock.
You're taking a chance.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
But these are not meant to be investments. That's the
big thing. That's my clap back to those people. No
card game is supposed to be an investment, exactly. No
card game is an investment.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Because it is a game. If the company fails, the
game no longer exists.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
I honestly believe that I want the Commander Council to
know that the community is on their side. I want
them to know that we didn't turn on them, that
it was a vocal minority. And then they got the
threats that they did not deserve. And I think it's
(46:05):
too late. I think Commander is now in the hands
of Wizards of the Coast and we have to see
how that plays out, and we have to see where
the cards fall. Right now, I don't like to end
my episodes on it down. I don't think we have
a choice here because at this moment there is no upside.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, we we hope that the Council changes their mind
and talks to Wizards of the Coast and sees to
see if they can work something out. They might even
look at Wizards of the Coast idea of the tier
list and go, that's actually a good idea, and that
would help.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, but they handed it over already. Yeah, I'm gonna
say this in the infinite words of Padmeyamidala. That's Leah.
This is how liberty dies to thunderous applause. Yeah, people
were happy that they took it over. I don't agree
(47:05):
with them. I think Commander is going to see a
massive change, and I don't know if it's for the good.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's gonna it's gonna change. And the stuff that they
were trying to prevent. The Council was trying to prevent
of games being too slow or too fast. Games are
going to be too fast. Look at what happened. Look
at what's the magic formatute the where you can legitimately
(47:34):
win and turn zero.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
That's legacy. Modern has turned one wins, turn two wins.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
That's what's gonna happen. It's gonna get faster, Commander, Legitimately,
they're profits overplay. To increase their profits, they would release,
they would remove a bunch of cards from the band list,
and there will be a bunch of Turn one.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah. I don't agree that Wizards of the Coast is
going to do well because they do not have any trope.
Nobody trusts Wizards. Nobody trusts Wizards of the Coast. They
have turned on their community so many times in different
games too, not just in D and D, in Magic
the Gathering. We've seen it with all the products.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
This No, look what happened with Hero Escape.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Wizards of the Coast didn't make Hero Escape, No, they didn't.
They partnered with them. They didn't make it.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
They partnered with them. But if I remember right, didn't
they purchase Hero Escape and then shut it down?
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Has before they sold it it has ro handed it
off to them, Yeah, and they shut it down yea,
because they did their D and D sets. They do
not have a track record with games. They do not
have a good track record with games Magic has been
their most long running one. I mean, that's everything that
we really got to talk about. I don't want to
keep ranting. I'm your host, Isaiah, I'm Jacob. We're lugging
(48:58):
out
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