S03E18 - Bruce Fenton // The Forgotten Exodus - Lost Origins

Episode Transcript
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(00:37):
Pallor party people. It is Monday. That means it's Lost Origins Day,
and I'm really excited for just theUN to pull it together and renamed Monday
is Lost Origins Day, and thenthere's get it together. Yeah, they're
not responding to many priorities. Peopledon't make us form a country. And
then petition to get a representative.Yeah, that's a lot of work too

(00:58):
though, finding how much work weare. I mean, there's a lot
of stuff going on in the worldright now, and I get it right,
It's like there's you stack rank thethings. But twenty twenty has been
an early start to any given year. Yeah, a lot of things on
the plate, but you know,at least it's not twenty nineteen. True,
Yeah, we have. Yeah,Indeed, the future is bright,
really beautiful things going on, youknow, and I will say even you

(01:19):
know, not just thinking about thefuture, but looking way back in the
past. Another homie of the showthat has pretty much been on the show
since day one inter traditions and BarrenCompany Ye constantly helping us give context to
the moment. Things are great,Things can't be that bad in the context

(01:40):
of all things, ancient mysteries,all things ancient history, all things alternative
theory, Intertraditions, Barren Company.If you haven't seen it yet, if
you don't know what we're talking about, that's crazy talk. But for those
who don't, or for those whojust haven't done it yet, Intertraditions dot
Com in them up, do itright. It's twenty twenty. That means
just the year of perfect vision.And if you're a fan of ancient mysteries,

(02:01):
it means you're always trying to getthe right perspective or the right outlook
on things. And if you're notfamiliar with those, guys, my challenge
to you, seek's challenged to you. The Show's challenged to you would be
to have inter Traditions help you withyour vision impairment. Yet, woke guys
dot com. So let's talk abouttoday's episode of the show. All right,

(02:23):
So I'm super excited for today's showbecause today we are welcoming back an
old homie from season to Bruce Fenton. And if you did not work through
that episode, you may want tojump back a season. Just check that
out, because this guy, mananthropologist, digs into all the things,
not afraid to ask the hard questionsand look at things through a different perspective,

(02:46):
and in that conversation we've only reallyworked through, you know, a
small sample of his body of work. Right, this guy has been all
over the globe. He has pokedat so many different theories, concepts,
con troversies, ancient mysteries, allthe things. And I'm really excited to
get him back on the show becausein our last conversation we really worked through

(03:07):
his book Hybrid Human and that's asolid, solid body of work you should
like. We highly recommend that youcheck it out. But in today's conversation,
we're gonna be digging into one ofhis other books, The Forgotten Exodus,
The into Africa, Theory of HumanEvolution, and so it's going to
be one hell of a ride.We're going to be looking at the origins

(03:28):
of humanity, one of our favoritetopics of conversation. And you know,
I'm just super super excited because Bruceis hands down one of the nicest guys
that we've had on the show.He's very thorough, very thoughtful. We've
gotten tons of feedback from the audiencethat they really enjoy the way in which
he presents his work and his research, and so I'm excited for the conversation.
For sin guys, he's super funand you know, there may be

(03:52):
some controversy controversy today and that's gonnabe okay, right, we love it.
Yeah, controversy. You know thatthat's just an opportunity for personal development
and growth and even further, ifthe control is too much for some of
the people in the audience, holloback at us our man would love to
hear back, you know through us. Um He definitely, I think seems

(04:15):
like somebody who's pretty open to thisstuff. So hopefully there's a bunch of
really solid nuggets. Yeah, andany emails leading up to this booking.
He did share with me his calendarfor his fight club, Thank you guys.
Yeah, so if you guys,if you guys get real worked up
like you did, just violate thefirst rule of it though, but whatever,
But it's not that fight club.He can edit it out with different

(04:36):
different fight club deleted from everyone's mind. Yeah, if you want to fight
Bruce Fenton, just let us know. We can probably make that happen.
Jesus, let's uh, let's justdo an episode of the Shiites Don't talk
about fight Club. Bruce Fent andwelcome back man. How are you doing

(05:00):
very well? Thank you very much, and yes, it's a pleasure to
be back on absolutely. And youknow, normally we do some introductions,
but since we've had a conversation withyou before, just you know recently last
season we discussed your book Hybrid Humans, and it was such a solid exchange
learned. I know, both Andrewand I learned a lot. Super excited

(05:23):
for today's conversation, and I knowwe're going to be digging into one of
your other books, the Forgotten Accidentsinto or the into Africa theory of human
evolution. But before we dive intothat and specifically the focus of that research,
can you take a step back andshare with the audience kind of the
conventional view of the migration patterns ofHomo sapiens, you know, give us

(05:44):
a high level overview of what mostcurrent academics would see as the understanding of
that epoch. Sure. I mean, if you go back I run about
let's say about fifteen million years ago, So you've got the early ancestors of
hominins, which they're down these primateswhich are down here Southeast Asia, sort
monkey like creatures, right, theymigrate. There's a climate event which causes

(06:08):
them to migrate across Eurasia and toend up in Africa. A few million
years later, we have the earlyhominins. So going back about seven million,
eight million years ago, you havethe first who would seem to be
recognizably hominin ancestors of our lineage.They were ape like, right, so
they definitely weren't human. And thenit's not untill about well about I suppose

(06:32):
three million years ago you have atransition towards the genus Homo, and some
of the fossils at that time areconsidered to be transitional. You can see
those traits of both, you know, the earlier ape like hominins and more
human like traits. And so fromthen on it's considered largely an African eccentric
story in which we have a progressiononwards to Homo erectus, which emerges us

(06:57):
around two million years ago. Theystart to leave the continent again in this
model, spread across western Asia andthey make their way all the way down
to Southeast Asia by around about onepoint eight million years ago. Okay,
so that's what's considered to be thefirst big out of Africa. And then
later on in the story. Wehave the emergence of Homo sapiens, which

(07:20):
considered to occur depending on you asked. Now, this is a story in
transition, but somewhere around about fivehundred to seven hundred thousand years ago,
we have the early origins of ourlineage, supposedly again in Africa, and
that then largely the form evolves withinthe continent until there's some out of Africa

(07:40):
events at around two hundred thousand yearsago, and then of course the most
famous one, which is at aroundseventy thousand years ago, which is modern
humans supposedly leaving East Africa populating therest of the world over the coming millennia.
That's an overview. There's the highlevel area of just millions of years,
if you summed it up. Though, like a boss, we appreciate

(08:01):
the hell out of that. Andso I know that in several conversations that
you and I have had offline,via email, on the phone, whatever
you know, you've you've outlined thatthere's been some some seriously incredible discoveries within
this field since your your book wasreleased, and that's really where we want
to spend a majority of our timein today's conversation so before we explore those
concepts and discoveries, specifically, maybeprovide us with a little bit of overviewer

(08:24):
context around the Forgotten Exodus, Right, we really want to make sure that
we're setting the stage here. Whatare some of the key takeaways for our
audience who have not read that bookor maybe some of the high level overviews
of just the theories in general thatyou guys are putting forth in that body
of work. Sure, I mean, one of the major I guess divergence

(08:46):
points from the conventional story that tackledin the book is the idea that Homer
erect us was. Of course,he's already recognized as being outside of Africa
at least around one point eight millionyears ago, but this is possible that
maybe earlier. But either way,what we have is this hominin who is
considered to be likely ancestral to us, already out of the continent at one

(09:07):
point eight million years ago, youknow, all the way down to southeast
Asia. Now, if Homo erectusis indeed the direct predecessor, if you
like, if Homo sapiens, wehave a problem move because then we have,
of course, we have a populationwithin Africa it's called Homo Agasta.
And then obviously the homeorectors that areoutside of Africa. Now why is it

(09:28):
The assumption is we have emerged fromthose in Africa, and what I argue
in the book, you know,for a number of reasons, so it
looks far more likely that the Homosapiens of the engines emerges from the second
group that is already widely dispersed acrossthe planet. Right, So you have
this divergence at this point in thestory. And then my focus is largely

(09:50):
on Eurasia and Oceania, and Idon't really go to the Americas because that's
later on the story. But butbase it that great to reach beyond Africa.
I tackle a couple of inter Africaevents. But the main difference here,
yeah, of course is we arenot focusing on Africa, which is
really in you know, all theconventional models is where they say all the
action happens. Then I also positionthe major parts of the stories for Neanderthals,

(10:16):
Denisovans, read Dear Cave, youknow, all of these other hominins
again outside Africa. So we havethis some other points I think people will
find interesting. Side I go intothe route of you know, the origins
of language, where the home erectuscould speak sailing, which I know we're
going to attacking a bit more detail, but whether or not we sailed very

(10:37):
early on, that's in there,and the true homelands of some of these
hominins, which people be quite surprisedthat where I would position Neanderthals and Denisovans
and rather than perhaps where they've beenpositioned in conventional models. So I think
readers will find that it's very different. Also, particularly my folks in Australia,
which is quite unique. Other thanthere's a couple of other writers out

(10:58):
there that have suggested Australia plays,you know, a key role, But
as far as I know, I'mthe only person with a book that really
offers a very concrete scientific argument forwhy we should be looking at Australia as
as really fundamental to the Homo sapiensand modern human story. So could you
do do a little bit of adeep down for us there though, Bruce,

(11:20):
Like, let's let's talk about Australiaspecifically. What are some of the
points within your research that has ledyou to continue to investigate that continent as
one of the origins of you know, modern humans today. Sure, I
mean initially it came up out ofsome other research I was doing. I
was based in Ecuador for a while, and whilst there I became involved with

(11:41):
the site up in the Yanga Natiststhat centers a jungle area in central east
Equador, a part of the Amazon, and in there there's a magnific site
which shouldn't really be there. It'snot it's not Inca, and he doesn't
mess with any of the known preInca cultures of that region. One thing
that was particular interesting actually is onthe blocks of the structure there's a kind

(12:03):
of mortar r in the Inca,and as far as you know, all
the other building cultures in that regiondidn't even use more so, so this
is somebody completely anomalous. But whatI found was that there was some writing
about some bones that were found ina cave not far from the site,
and these were skeletons of Logoa Santatype people. Now, for it was
not familiar with the Logoa Santa.They are basically a Brazilian population, an

(12:26):
ancient Brazilian population whose skull morphology suggeststhat they are very similar in their looks
to Australians and New Guinean people rightsept You've got them down a course in
Brazil in the Amazon, right,So this is peculiar. And then it
also that these are the seems tobe the first Americans. If you go

(12:46):
down to some of the sites inBrazil, there's there's rock shelters that are
coming up with dates suggestive of occupationfifty thousand years ago. Right now,
that's obviously long, long before Clovis. You know, obviously Clovis is in
collapse anyway. But this high inbetween the side I was investigating and this
early population, it really sort ofsparks and guy, I think I'll hang
on a minute. If there's thesepeople there, you know, seen brabage

(13:07):
and Australians fifty thousand years ago,how on earth does that tie into the
out of African model? You know, this doesn't seem to mesh right,
And that's that's where it become ajumping off point into Okay, now,
let me have a look and seewhat the heck is going on in Australia
that could possibly make sense of whatI'm finding, you know, in Latin
America. So that was the beginningsof it, and what you find as

(13:30):
well. If the first thing youdo in go to Australia, of course
is the oral history. You know, they say, look, we've always
been here, were the first people. We're the first people in the world.
You know, all others come fromus. You know, we've been
here since the dream time, andso on and so on in their all
of their their law stories. Rightof course that's not white man's science sortever,
as you know, so people willsay, okay, these are just
the local stories. But you know, the interesting thing is, as these

(13:54):
law stories have been evaluated by scientists, more and more of them are being
shown to be accurate. And there'sa really fascinating ones, you know,
where there'll be a story of somethingfalling from the sky and you know they'll
make up, you know, asurrounding narrative. But when you get to
the heart of it, if youfollow the details in the story, you
find a crater, right, andyou find that crater occur. You know
it was caused by metri fifteen thousandyears ago or something right, or their

(14:18):
story about an area where they wereliving. You know, you go,
you find it it was under thewater, you know, twenty thousand years
ago, went into the water stufflike this way. It's it's showing that
there's an incredible unbroken lineage in thesestories going really far back right, and
that they're not just tall tales,that they encompass genuine events, genuine knowledge.
So it's interesting that you know fromthat perspective that this is what the

(14:41):
aper of people are saying. WhatI did, of course, was drilled
down into the archeology, the theathropology, the genetics, you know,
just to see what the heck's goingon here, and it flags up a
number of interesting things. I mean, particularly that just to give one interesting
point of people. And now you'lloften hear the that the sub Saharan Africans

(15:03):
are the most genetically diverse people inthe world, and that that is one
of the reasons why sciences are sosure that they are the basil sort of
foundational population for Eurasians. But oneof the things that was assumed here is,
of course, is that Aboriginals areone of the last groups within the
migration across Eurasia that they eventually theysplit off and go down to Australia.

(15:24):
So they should be fairly well.They shouldn't have huge netic diversity. Put
it that way because they are splints. Supposed the splinter group from this broader
migration, what you actually find isthey have extraordinary genetic diversity, and at
this stage where the sampling is notvery widespread, that they don't know how
diverse. But I'm going I'm goingto predict to you it's going to become

(15:46):
very obvious that they are more geneticallydiverse than Subsaharan Africans, because even in
the small sample groups that have beenrun so far, they're finding this unbelievable
by diversity where for example, peoplein the north versus some people in the
south needsually take the pap one andas people to the south, they found
that they were as genetically distinct aspeople from you know, basically opposite sides

(16:06):
of the world, right, andthey're separated by and what now is obviously
some c but before you know,if you go back to the thirteen thousand
years ago, there was no geologicalbarrier. I mean, these were just
neighboring people. The idea that theycan be as as diverse, you know,
as as people that'll be separated Ibelieve amount of time and huge distance
was really not expected. You know, they were thinking of these that really

(16:29):
closely you know, intelligue people,and that they've stuff like that. It's
starting to flag up. I thinkwhen they do a widespread genomic study,
they're going to see that the averageand people have the highest diversity in the
world, which will mesh with whatI'm telling you is that these people are
the first people. And you know, some of the other interesting um,
just kind of new data out therethinking about how you know, right now,

(16:51):
if we look at sort of thestandard model of anthropology was the gibil
airhood um you know, but originallythought to be part of Neandertal you know,
genetic lineage, but is now assignedto Homo sapiens that's roughly three hundred
thousand years ago in northern Morocco.And then you actually posted something really interesting

(17:11):
recently about the Wollongdong skull that wasfound not in Africa at all, right,
but in southeast Asisia, which isalso around three hundred thousand years old.
And so to see that absolutely justthat if you were almost to triangulate
this stuff and say, you know, these are not geographically as related,

(17:33):
but absolutely could potentially come from someorigin point you know, in the same
region that these aboriginal cultures are.Yeah, And this is one of the
things has been a problem is thatthere's a lot of fines in China,
right, There's loads of really interestingfossil fines in China. But the focus
again has been on Western academics,you know, American academics, Europeans and

(17:56):
their modeling, which usually is todo with Africa. So this is something
a bias. When we look atsay papers in nature and stuff, you
know, there is a bias towardsthe Western academics. And they also look
down on the Chinese. And thisis when you find often they'll say,
oh, they're nationalistic. They're justtrying to say that the Chinese are the
first, et cetera, et cetera. Now that happens, right, But
the thing is they still have thesefossils and you cannot, you know,

(18:18):
no matter happy want to sort ofspin this. The fact is they have
going back to about seven hundred thousandyears ago onwards, they have the greatest
collection of transitional fossils that display bothHomo sapiens and kind of erectus like features
known you know, more than Africahas. In fact, Africa has a
quite a gap around about eight hundredto five hundred thousand ars ago, where
there's not a lot of not reallyas eye as far as i'm with transitional

(18:41):
fossils right from five hundred thousand onwards. Yes, but the Chinese things have
an unbroken record. And also theyhave a lot of these, you know,
like the Dali skull and Langdong,and there's several others. They've got
interesting sang there's about four five whichlook to be archaic Homo sapiens, right,
which you're going back to two hundredto three hundred thousand years ago,

(19:03):
right, And it's like, whoa, hang on a minute, you know,
wasn't Homo sapping is supposed to bejust in Africa just emerging three hundred
thousand years ago? So so howare we finding these archaic Homo sapping skulls
all the way down in China?Right? So the Chinese academics are saying,
well, look, you know what, how are you you know,
saying that it's all in Africa whenwe've got these these fines right, yes,
maybe not just one multiple And thenlater on they have modern human fossils

(19:30):
right in number of cave sites whichare dated one hundred and twenty thousand to
eighty thousand, which again predates therecent out of Africa. So so both
the conventional models of you know,out of Africa, the earlier migration and
also the recent out of Africa donot mesh at all well with the Chinese
archeology, right, And these arefundial problems. So just shift gears a

(19:51):
little bit, and you brought itup just a moment ago. Um,
But I know this is an areathat both Andrew and I find really fascinating.
Um. There's evidence of just whenhumans used watercraft for the first time,
right, Um, And so theacademically accepted timeline for Homo sapiens it's
a little bit different than some ofthe things that your research and some of

(20:11):
your recent discoveries have uncovered. Canyou break that down for us? Sure?
I mean, if you go backjust probably five five to ten years
ago, right, if you'd askedany academics, you know, when did
any kinds of hominins you know,first start to utilize watercraft in a you
know, in a really focused way, they would have said to you about

(20:33):
fifty thousand years ago when modern humansentered Australia. Right now, that has
gone absolutely into the dustbin of history, because we now know that there is
there's clear evidence on the Mediterranean islands, right of sailing of some sort,
right against they say where because watercraft, you know, we're thinking of hollowed
out logs, perhaps basic rafts,you know, but something that you can

(20:57):
utilize to cross a river or whatever. Obviously sailing implies a sail and a
structured ship or something, you know, but certainly water craft were being employed,
right, So if you had toget to this Mediterrane island, you
know, you had to cross water. It wasn't a case of where once
upon a time, you know,it was dry and they could walk across,
right. So then and this datedback about I think it's a couple

(21:17):
hundred thousand years, right, butone hundred to two hundred thousand years and
that so straight away you've got anissue that these aren't modern humans, you
know, right, So who arethey Exactually we don't know, but there's
there were so many stone tools onthis island that it wasn't reasonable to say,
you know, this is one guywashed across or you know, this
has to be a whole community,you know, manufacturing a large number of

(21:37):
stone tools. And then of courseyou've also got now Flores where we have
the Hobbit people, and on othernearby islands they found stone tools. You
know, there's crossils and a rangeof dates, but basically from about million
years ago you've got water crossings inSoutheast Asia to have got to to Drava
and Flores and onwards, so you'vegot some kind of move and across water

(22:00):
from then on seven hundred thousand yearsago as the early signs of Homo florencis
these early Hobbit people. So weknow that these people are moving. You
know, there's people moving around andthe other one is down on Socotra,
which is not well known. Thisis an obscure study, a Russian study
that was done on on this islandwhich just off the tip of South Africa.
And again you have to cross asignificant distance of water, very powerful

(22:25):
currents, you know, going aroundthe tip of Africa. Someone has to
have strategically meant to get to thisisland. You know this is not again
not washed out. It's quite alengthy distance. Somebody has reached Scotra and
there's stone tools there which have beendated too well that they think they could
be as old as a million yearsold again. So this stuff is really
is really rewriting. You know,we had to follow these land pathways to

(22:49):
get to play, and when youstart thinking about it, you look at
map and you stuffing, well,if a million years ago we had both,
there's a lot of places where youthink we'll hang on them, and
it were we crossing here, youknow, were we crossing there? And
you can rethink migrations in your mind. Just think, well, if they
just crossed that little bit of waterthen stood of walking you know, all
the way around the continent. Youknow, then suddenly you have a very
fearferent models for how people were movingaround. Right. But let me ask

(23:11):
you this then, I mean,we have two different camps out there,
you know, is that you've gotisolationism versus diffusionism. Have you seen a
shift in trajectory between how those twocamps interact with one another since these discoveries
and these these studies were completed oris it still pretty divided? Right?
I mean, like one group thinkingthat Nope, there's no way that anybody
was you know, employing watercraft andyou know, transitionantic contact all the different

(23:33):
things, or like how has likethis theory rocked that community if at all.
I think people tend to you know, it's hard to get people to
change from a paradigm, you know, and if you are within the paradigm,
you tend to see through the eyesof that paradigm. So yeah,
it is it's rare for people tocompletely jump ship. But you're seeing some
modifications to paradigms. I mean,like, for example, um, if

(23:59):
you look the multi regionalists, right, you know, they've been shown to
be right in some respects. Okay, so we know now that that Neanderthals
and modern humans interbred, right,that was one of the predictions of the
multi regionist model working. Whereas youknow, the purely sort of Africa out
of Africa, people who said no, you know, there wasn't any multias
fractive. They've had to modify thatand they've say, now, actually it

(24:19):
was multi regionalism, but limited towithin all regions of Africa, parts of
the Near East, in western Asia, so that they've had to change,
you know, they're now so ina way you can say everyone's a multiregionalist.
Now, that's that's one major change. And they acceptance of interbreeding between
hormonies, which it has been forcedon people, which you know, a

(24:41):
lot a lot of folks predicted itwasn't possible that Neanderthals was too different as
a species to have mixed with us. But now again that's gone out of
the window, and in fact we'refinding that, you know, that modern
humans are really a hybrid many differentright groups. I think we're going to
find in the end that we area hybrid are of a much larger number
right than than we know. Now. We don't have names for some of

(25:03):
these hominins whose DNA were detecting inus, right, So at the moment
there's a kind of an artificial ideathat we are kind of a mixture of
Neanderthals Denisovans and you know, Iguess a direct almost Sackingsands, but that's
not really true. I mean,they've already found ghost population DNA right in
some different living groups today around twoor three of these lineages. They now

(25:26):
know, there was at least threedifferent groups that are being called denisovers,
but they're all gonna need to havetheir own names really because they've got really
deep divergence. Dates come to thatas well. But essentially, so you've
got free populations that are being calleddennisovers probably more than you know. There's
at least a couples and kinds ofin the aandivals again, so do we
call different names? Perhaps obviously gotHomo hydupergensis turns out to be an early
Neanderthals, so that's that's been arewrite. And then you know we've got

(25:51):
people like red Deer Cave, theseFloris, you know, the Hobbit people
and Florish, a whole load ofvery small people they're getting found around the
Indonesia and Philippines islands. You know, we've now got to other islands with
what seems to be diminutive humans onthem. Right, So this this map
of you know, of early people, it's expanding a lot, and it's
becoming clear that we ourselves have alot of DNA coming from more populations than

(26:15):
we ever imagined. But in thatway, so I think everyone's community is
having to be modified by this,even if they don't fully jump paradigms.
Right, right, we're going tojump to just a quick commercial break,
but when we come back more fromBruce. Then all right, welcome back

(27:00):
to this week's episode of Lost Origins. If you're just tuning in, we
are reconnecting with our old friend BruceFenton, and before the break we were
starting to get pretty hot and heavywith the out of Africa theory and Bruce.
We recently had Andrew Collins on theshow tail end of last season,
and I mean, his latest bookreally focuses on Neanderthals and Dennis Events and
all the things, and we hadan amazing conversation with him. I'd really

(27:22):
like to get your take as towhat your research is focusing on, more
specifically with the story of the hybridizationof the Denis Events, the Neanderthals,
and then basically where their homelands were, walk us through, throw all your
research around that. If you couldburst Yeah, Dennis opens is obviously i'd
be a hot button subject. Ithink that everyone's quite kind of interested in

(27:44):
if they're not usually following these topics. I've not read, you know,
collins book with little I'm aware ofthe content, you know what they kind
of cause up. But he startingto give you my view, which is,
I know he is quite different tothis in a way because in a
way, because to be honest,nobody else except for academics, really deep

(28:04):
dives this topic. In a way, I do. And I'm not saying
that in a in a sort ofyou know, an arrogant ways. Just
I put a lot of focus,particularly into this hormon in evolutionary story,
whereas other people tend to be puttingit into a different context like looking at
you know, gobecy Tepi or themounds. You know, they obviously have
another focus, right, Mine ispurely what the heck got on with all

(28:25):
these these humans. Now, ifyou look back, essentially you have the
emergence of a lineage that will leadto us Neanderthals, Denis Obans, and
several others, which which occurs aroundabout eight hundred thousand years ago. Obviously
we covered this epine in the otherinterview. We did so we actually too
much. But essentially we know there'sa number of genetic changes that occur in

(28:48):
the genome which basically causes a splinter, a lineage to diverge away from the
last common ancestor. And then soonafter that lineys that leads to the Anilals
and dennis overs breaks away from oursand then they have a split. Now,
so this is all around between fivehundred to seven and eighty thousand years
ago, that this is happening,right, these particular splits. Now,

(29:11):
I position all of these down inif Southeast Asia and Oceania, not Africa,
that these you have the Homeorectors,and you have at least one other
population possibly high of possibly Habilis oranother early hormonin We're now suspecting that there's
someone else already down in Southeast Asia, who are the ancestors of florenciensis.

(29:32):
The feeling is that this is notHomeorectus giving rise to these hobbit people,
but another group, possibly a kindof rush epiphocus. There's somebody else already
out there. In fact, thissomebody else, maybe the ancestors of Homo
erectus, right, because we're notsure yet. But so in one of
these two, which whoever it is, maybe a mixture of the two,
they give rise to these first thelineas will lead to us the Anipals and

(29:56):
dennis Ovans. So I'm positioning thisevent down mostly in Northern Australia, the
Indonesian Islands, and Southeast Asia orSahole sunder Right. And the interesting about
that my book was the first topredict this that the Denisovans essentially had their
homeland in Australia. Now, acouple of years back, peop would have

(30:17):
thought that's ludicrous, right, that'sa ludicrous idea because the Denisovans were only
found up in Siberia the denisover cave. So it's like, well, how
can you be putting them down inAustralia. You know. Now, what
they're finding is, of course thatthe pap Ones carry this signature. Around
six percent or so of the deadDNA is Denisovan DNA, and it's not

(30:38):
just one Dennisovan group, but butpotentially three different groups. Right. The
people in Siberia they carry no DenisovanDNA today, so you know, we
know that this is not really aheart land of Dennisovans, okay, so
they didn't even interbreed with the humansare moving into the area, so they
couldn't have been many of them there, or they'd you know, prono uch
on the distinction by the time modernhumans arrived, because there's no signature for

(31:00):
them. If you go to EastAsia, you'll find a signature for Denisovans
amongst East Asian people, but verylow. It's usually around no point one
percent to one percent of the DNAgenome. It's only down in island Southeast
Asia, and basically it's called nowof Oceania Australasia that we find this strong
signature the accepted model basically is movingtowards is that, Well, how can

(31:25):
this be? It suggests that theDenisovans are already in Australasia when the encounter
happens with modern humans, right,that they're living isolated down there. And
then you get to another problem youhave that you find that in the latest
studies these other Denisovan branches that someof them have split from each other around
four hundred thousand years ago, right, so enormously deep, enormously deep diversion.

(31:52):
Now where else does it happen.We don't find evidence for this anywhere
else. It's looking like there's multipleDenisovan populations town in Australia, so this
is their homeland, right that You'vegot multiple populations who are themselves have deep,
deep divergences enough that would be talkingabout being on their way towards separate
subspecies. Right. So nobody whenI put my book out back in early

(32:14):
two persenty, nobody would have beenelse was really thinking down that route.
But you know, I could seefrom the studies I was doing. It
was clearly going that way. Andthere's other things that people haven't clocked onto
yet. I mean, you maynot know this, but Papa New Guinea
has the most intense clustering of distinctlanguages on the planet. You know,
it's one small, one relatively smallisland again and you have something like I

(32:38):
think it's about eight hundred languages withpartiferent language groups. All that this is
not one language group that you knowthat loads dozens of separate language groups.
I believe that we have in thereDenisolm languages right as well, which have
persisted and they have modified. Obviouslynow they're modified, you wouldn't be the
same as they were, you know, when the Denisocas were a separate group.
But when you see this wealth orlanguage, I think that we had

(33:00):
a contraction of populations into northern sahHall and including several lineages of dennis Ovans
and other groups. And that's whywe have not only this fantastic mix of
DNA, but a fantastical mix oflanguages. There's nowhere else like that.
So there was a number there wasa number of clues you could say,
um, but even even at theDennis I'm not going I'll give you a

(33:22):
charge jumping. Even at the DennisOver Cave, there's clues there because when
they were tested at DNA, whatthey found was that one of the Dennis
Overs there, she actually had DNAfrom modern humans of the pap one population
type. Right, So it's like, how on a minute. So it's
looking more like this is someone who'scome up, you know, or a

(33:43):
population that's made their way up fromnorthern Australia to Siberia. So again I
think that we have is the vestigesof a migration, an early migration out
of Australia involving dennis Ovans who haveencountered modern humans and there's been a mix
and they're they're the people that comingup into into Siberian That's why I say
it's not the homeland. That's whywe don't find this. This their signature

(34:07):
within Siberian people today. This isan outlying cave on the edges like of
the of that world, right,it's not this is not their homeland.
So it's just because you know,we don't always get the opportunity to speak
with somebody with the depth of anthropologicalknowledge that you have and more so just
as a question, unless so asany kind of challenge. Um, can

(34:28):
you break down a kind of yourunderstanding of you know, when we think
about some of the traditional models thatyou have, this Homo Heidelbergen genesis,
the theory of the kind of branchinginto the Neanderthal or Neanderthal and denize vin
um. So where where does doyou see them as a separate genetic lineage
or do you see them coming fromthat lineage? What is your research indicated

(34:51):
to you? In my view?And I accept. You know, there's
a guy Milton Wolpoff who's really oneof the fathers of multi regionalism. You
know, he says that, inhis view, you don't get true specia
speciation in hominins until about a millionyears of isolation from each other. Are
in two groups. Now, there'snot been a million years since the divergence

(35:16):
of these large brain dominance, right, So yeah, So if you think
that the very early part of thesplit that leads to all these large brain
cominans, if that's occurring around eighthundred thousand years ago, so even even
if they were just separate all thattime, it's not quite enough. I
mean, obviously it's getting close.But the things we know that they weren't.
We know that there's been interbreeding multipletimes, right, and that there

(35:38):
doesn't seem to be at any pointyou know, it's at least four that
persisted at any point where a populationwould not end up mixing with another population.
Right. We're starting to find thatthere was, you know, mixing
going back five hundred thousands, go, three hundred thousand years, go here,
you know, two hundred thous years, and that whenever groups kind of
bump up against each other again,they start into breeding. You know,

(36:00):
they don't think, oh, youknow, what are these creatures? They
recognize each other. They recognize eachother as humans, you know. And
it's funny. You'll see an attitudein some of the articles they say,
you know, how could they howcould you know? How could modern humans
sleep with these Denosoban creatures or so? But you know, they saw each
other and they saw human beings,right, they didn't know the DNA alien
age, or they didn't think thattheir forehead was a bit too big,

(36:21):
so they can't be humans. Youknow, these are modern ideas. Clearly,
you know, they were in manyrespects no different than say, let's
say a pigmy person from Africa meetingmaybe you know, a South American tribes
person, or the differences we'd see, you know, between different groups to
day. We obviously we have alot of differences within the un population.

(36:42):
You can have two people that lookvery unlike each other, you know,
Sam Bushman at seven foot and apigmy at like, you know, five
foot whatever. You know, wehave these differences, we still recognize each
other as humans, right, andpeople into marry across all these groups.
So it's a sort of strange ideathat they would have seeing each other and
said, oh, you know,what are they? I mean, they
obviously knew these were well. Imean you look back at like my college
career, I definitely made some suspectdating decisions and yeah, she's like,

(37:06):
I'm seven feet till you're like yeargirl. That's right, that's right,
people do. I mean, ifthere's anything that humans will will pretty much
making announced for its having sex withother humans. I mean you know that,
we know that. I mean weknow that even language has been no
barrier. You know, size hasbeen no barrier, class all the rest.
So it's been happen the whole time. There's never been a point.

(37:29):
So to my view, what wereally have is what I what I tend
to think of as a greater Homosapiens family. And I said, because
when I say Homo sapiens, I'mthinking of the implication of being you know,
intelligent sapiens intelligence basically big brained.Right, So from around one hundred
thousand years ago, we have thegenetic changes that will inevitably take us to

(37:52):
large brains. Whether we're Neanderthals,Dennis Ovan's modern teams, all of these
groups end up with the large brain. To me, all of these are
ones species. I would accept thatNeanderthals and US et cetera are different subspecies
within that group. Okay, butI don't think we are fully separate species.
And I clearly, once upon atime species in third you couldn't interbreed

(38:14):
for a start. Right now peopleare sort of modifying that that meaning.
But we know there was extensive interbreeding. So from a conventional understanding what species
is, we were one species youknow, perfectly able to interbreed. I'm
not saying there was never any problemsthat you might not lose some fetus here
and there. You know that theremight not be an oison easy, But
clearly it happened quite extensively, becauseyou know, most as in this conversation

(38:37):
will have probably three percent Neanderthorne andmaybe traces of other you know, other
homin incidents, and so clearly itwas extensive. So let's let's go even
way further back here. Um,I know there's a recent discovery in crete,
of all places, are the humanoidfootprint that potentially dates back to something

(38:58):
like six million years ago? Girl, can you talk about this discovery and
any implications this holds for the kindof chronology that we've been discussing. Sure,
I mean this is a controversial.Fine, the authors of the study
have you know, they've they've hada lot of flat because simply because it's
controversial, not because there was anythingwrong with their study, you know,
not because it was inaccurate or badlydone, but people didn't want to accept

(39:22):
it because what they found is thatthe footprints on crete around five six million
years aroundabouts as modern in their intheir structure, as as the African wasn't
his ladder tale. Where you've gotthese the earliest human like bridge to the
foot and the displacement of toes ina footprint in Africa. But this and

(39:43):
these most down in crete. Youknow, we're looking almost perhaps a little
bit more modern, right, andthis is you know, this has been
a bit of a head scratcher forthe conventional model because well, you know,
supposedly, you know, he couldn'thave headed out of Africa that early.
But when you when you really lookback at that period, I mean,
s in Europe was at one pointthe major you know, hothouse for

(40:04):
the pre hominin ancestors, right thatwhen they moved away from Southeast Asia,
and I said, they're just climateshift, they moved into sort of southern
Europe, okay, And then there'slater events around five million years ago,
so that by that point they're supposedto have sort of faded out from that
region, and you've just got theAfrican group. But we don't really know
that. We don't know that therewas none left there, and we also

(40:27):
don't know for sure that the evolutionhas happening you know, that leads to
hominins. It's really just an Africanstory. And this and this Fine is
kind of saying, well, Ihang on a minute. You know,
we've got footprints here at five millionyears that look all feel like they're on
their way to being you know,human. You know, I feel like
there are definitely look like Hominin footprintsand they're older than you know, similar

(40:50):
looking ones in Africa, So that'sa problem. There's also been a couple
of fossil fines down in Greece,some things in Bulgaria that was some people
spinning us being possibly a gan Yaas evidence of early Homblands at seven million
years Now. There's a strange kindof contests, you know, they goes
on that everything has to be inAfrica. And if you if it's not
this kind of this strange idea thatyou know, you're maybe a racist story

(41:13):
just sometimes it's really controversial. ButI don't I don't really know what this
idea of adherence to out of Africacomes from, because if you really think
about it, it's like or atwhat point do we decide an ancestor is
important? Because as as I've alreadyinferred there, we've already been down in
Southeast Asia. You know early primates, right, they've moved Okay, they've
moved to southern Europe. Right,then they've technically moved to Africa, right,

(41:37):
And then we have all these othergroups that move out, But at
what stage do we say, well, this is the ones that matter,
you know, and it's out fromwherever they're standing, you know. So
it's a kind of a strange ideabecause you know, it's it comes down
to really my feeling about anthropology ifyou go back, you know, particularly
to the Victorian era when they firstyou know, English anthropologies were going out

(41:59):
and pretty much in the field.They went out looking for Eden. Yeah,
they were looking for Eden and Adamand Eve. And what they decided
in the end was, you know, that quest eventually led to East Africa
and you know, an ancestral Adamand Eve. And obviously even in scides
we talk about you know, geneticeven all listen. So that's always been

(42:20):
kind of mixed in there, thatthe ide of exodus, you know,
out of the garden, right,so that there's been these waves out of
out of Eden, you know,from ancestral only, and a lot of
that's just bologney. And when you'rethinking, you think, well, yeah,
really it's not this isn't scientific,and the idea of waves from Africa,
and you sort of think about that, you think, well, why
can no one ever walk back intoAfrica. You know, why is it

(42:42):
always waves out of Africa? Soyou know the gates open, run out,
were closing it behind you. Youknow, no one comes back into
Africa. You know you've been banishedfrom the garden. You know. It's
a funny idea, isn't it,Because when you look at it scientifically,
there's absolutely no barriers to people cominginto Africa. And so in reality,
that's what's happening. Okay, youhave a chaotic movement of people once hominins

(43:07):
exist, and once they're fairly widespreadno matter where you start them. So
if we know that by two millionyears ago or say one point eight minute
ago, we've got hominins widespread.So that's that point. You know,
it's chaos. Yeah, it's notwaves coming out of anywhere. It's different
groups following game, or following plants, or or joining with another group,

(43:30):
you know, interbreeding. If theydon't like the climate in Asia, they
can walk back from Africa, nothingstopping them, you know, and vice
versa. If Africa's not doing well, people will go out. Okay,
Now, for some reason, thismodel has always been ignored or rejected.
For some reason, it's always thiswaves from Africa. And you notice you
may have noticed that they found apart of a skull in Greece recently,

(43:53):
okay, and that came up asbeing about three hundred thousand years old or
something. Okay, now they itis a Homo chapion skull. I think
two hundred and something different interfractioning veryold, right, I mean you have
to much to double check that,but basically it's so old. Yeah,
the oldest evidence of Homo chappion isin the mediterrane That is straight away they

(44:14):
turned and said, well, thisis evidence of another migration from Africa.
It's like if yeah, people worestraight with or swallow that because I was
so used to being told that linethat every time you find one that's older,
it's another migration out of Eden,you know. Yeah, It's like,
wait a minute, couldn't that justbe evidence that we have a widespread,
long standing population outside of the continent, right, and that this is

(44:37):
just one skull from that lineage thatcould have been there from you know,
five hundred thousand years ago, andthat this is just from that lineage.
Why does it always infer another migration? Right? There's nothing scientific at all
about that idea. There's there's nobasis. He didn't come with a sticker
saying he made in Africa right himright? And you don't know what do
you know which direction he was walkingwhen he died. I don't think he

(44:58):
left any notes. So this isit's a really it's a strange idea that
we don't question because we used tojust getting told these things and swallowing it
without then critically thinking and thinking,how on earth would they know that this
is the result of another migration?Right, So this is a fundamental rewriting.
What I would want people to reallyimagine is that from the moment Homo

(45:20):
sapiens exist, you know, evenbefore that moment, homorectus is widespread from
then on, right, Africa,Eurasia right, and probably America because there's
smotherdens suggests very early habitation now andAustralia right, all have hominins living fairly
continuously, moving around, mixing rightfairly continuously from then on, except for

(45:47):
when there are climatic problems or othercataclysms which remove humans from one area or
displace them, you know, orthere's a virus or something. So those
are the only reasons why we youknow, abandoned land masses or migration stuff.
After that, Really you've got tostart thinking of the world as being
continuously populated from the time Homeorectus reachesSoutheast Asia one point eight million years ago

(46:12):
at least, if not before,right when you when you think of that,
and it makes sense, yeah,because instead of these waves and these
oh where do they all go?Why is there only another way where they
go? You know, this strangeidea that they're walking out into the nothing.
It's like, well, no,no, there's people there, there's
a there's people there. You know, there's all kinds and then mostly similar
kinds of Homeorectus times, it wasn'ta lot of other dominins right that we
know of. Homorectus seems to bethe master of his domain. But once

(46:36):
we have these splits, you know, there's all sorts of people everywhere.
But the bottom line is they areeverywhere. And that's when I say,
you look at these Chinese finds stuffthat they make sense in the context of
what you'd kind of expect if you'relooking at this objectively, that there would
be people from then on everywhere.Yeah, And so what really happens and
this is where you start rewriting it, and they said, well, okay,

(46:59):
when we look at the genetic evidence, you know, they say,
we think that you know, allmodern humans at least you know that they
came from Africa, and that wecan look at the genetics. Of course,
when you look at going further back, there's a problem because we don't
have except from the old genetic informationfrom Homo sapience. Right, the oldest

(47:21):
DNA that we have today comes fromthe Sema Delas west Off sign in Spain.
Now, those were essentially Homo hydropagensis, which are ancestral Neanderthals. And
I know that we touched on thatearlier that once upon a time Homo hydropagensis
was considered to be the ancestor ofNeanderthals and modern humans. But what they
found with the DNA seemadalasts can dueto the age of the site, which

(47:43):
is about five hundred thousand years old, in fact, that these were too
early on and they were too neanderthallike to make sense of them being you
know, Hydropergensis being ancestral to both. So we now know that Hydropergensis is
based in Neanderthal right, that's theoldest DNA we have, so that's not
an ancestor of ours. The oldestHomo Shapion's DNA I think at the moment

(48:06):
is I think at fifty thousand yearsold or so, we don't have we
don't have really truly to the ancientancient DNA right for our lineage, due
to where they've extracted it. Youknow, we five we're to find someone
who's in particularly world preserved condition,you know, saying an ice cave obviously
the idea, or just in aclimate where the DNA is not completely gone.

(48:29):
Potentially you can recover DNA up toa million years old. That's that's
what they think. The technical limitsmaybe one to one point five million years,
so you know, we can goquite far back. They've done a
horse DNA that's seven hundred thousand yearsold, so we know it technically can
happen, all right. But yeah, so that's where app we have this
this argument that okay, what actuallywhat's happened to populate the world? You

(48:52):
know, who are we kind ofif we moved to the Homo sapien story,
And again I'm for several reasons.I mean, go into white position
in Australia or it's up to youposition in Australia. Sure, you mentioned
fundamental rewrites there, Bruce, andI think that that's a great jumping off
point to talk about another discovery thatwarrants poking that bear. Right. So

(49:15):
that discovery is essentially unearthing of somestone tools that I believe dated back to
like two point five million years agoin Algeria. Right, and then there's
also a discovery in China dating backto like two point one million years ago
against stone tools, and so we'rethere's several articles floating around out there that
they're talking about how this potentially warrantsa rewriting of the out of Africa theory,

(49:37):
and so like, just break usoff on o we're looking at here,
explain these discoveries, walk us throughthrough through those events, and then
explain to us why they warrant there examination of the timeline. Essentially.
Sure, yeah, so this ye, this free sets, I mean's also
Lebanon and yeah, these these toolsreally they infer that there is a hominin
population widespread four homeorectorus, and sorather than an exodus from Africa around two

(50:02):
million years ago, it looks morelike there's already in extensive, you know,
widespread population of an unknown hominin probablyancestral termo erectus, who is already
as far you know, far widespread as you say, you know,
although Graphica to China, right,So that this then allows for evolution in
situ down in Asia and elsewhere.Two homeorectus, right, So then you

(50:27):
started, well, then you've gotto say the Georgian homerectus, which was
a surprise find a few years back. One point eight million year old roughly
one point eight milliyear old home erectusfinds up in Georgie during the mountains.
And then you put that into thatcontext, you're something, what did they
migrate out of Africa or these aninstitution evolution. And the interesting thing is
some of these skulls from the site, there's five skulls, they actually looked

(50:52):
awfully a lot like earlier habilis oranother group that So, even in that
small group of five skirls, theysaid there was enough variation to infer that
groups that weird once fought were separatespecies may all be part of the greater
variety within the Homo Erectus population.So what we may really have is a

(51:12):
transition going on fairly globally from anearlier homoin towards homeorectors. And we're seeing
the diversity across of these changes becausewe've seen some they still look more more
you know, ancestral to the others, but they're living at this contemporary time.
You know, to see that kindof level of diversity within five skills
in one barial site, you know, this is astonishing that it can literally

(51:34):
rewrite our understanding of different species.So this other fine plays into that is
suggests that you know, we needto think maybe that that hominins are widespread
two point perhaps two point five millionyears ago before Erectus has even emerged.
And again this fits with the newunderstanding of the Homo florenciensis hobbit people because
when you when they study the morphologyand they try and take them back to

(51:55):
who they're at likely ancestor was,although they've speculated Homorectus because they knew these
these words were down in the region, right, but they didn't seem to
stack up, and it was suggestivethat there was an earlier hominin in the
region who made its way to Flores. And now this measures with these stone
tools very well because it's pointing toand even earlier you know, global population

(52:17):
who has then given rise to allof these you know, later forms,
and there's no need after that.Really, there's no need for this Africa
as the cradlest civilization. What youinstead have is you need to think globally.
Think basically, evolution in hominins ishappening across regions into breeding between groups.

(52:37):
That there's a flow of genes fromAfrica all the way down to Southeast
Asia. That groups mix, youknow, on the edges of their territory,
and so there's a progression you knowfor gene sharing moving around and other
evolutionary pressures where everyone is kind ofchanging together. Right that there's not it's
not waves coming out and new replacements. You know, there's that idea I

(53:00):
think is really going to go downthe toilet. I think it's becoming more
more obvious, it really is.I mean, I think that it's clear
now that the probably two point fivemillion years won't won't stay, you know,
it'll probably go back earlier, butyou know, it keeps going back.
You know that really it's a multiregional story that we are out there,
you know, hominins are out there, you know, and even in

(53:21):
the Americas, there's been a fewskulls which seems to be home erected skulls,
but they haven't been well studied.It's a small number, but there
have been fines for what seems tobe hung erected skulls. Obviously, there's
been this thing about the man thebones that were that were seen to have
been crushed by humans for food onehundred twenty thousand, one hundred thirty thousand
years ago, the mastered on bones, sorry study. There's also the famous

(53:45):
Huatlah site where there was evidence ofperhaps humans there two hundred, three hundred,
even five hundred thousand years ago.Ruined a lot of careers. I
mean you probably know that one becauseit was a controversial, very controversial.
Fine, it destroyed everyone's careers.McIntyres and we're now alive still from the
geological team, but you know,shadow career ruined. Most of the people

(54:05):
have their careers kind of ruined becausethey were saying, well, look,
the geological data is saying there washumans here, you know, like at
least two hundred thousand years ago,and the anthropological community said no, no,
no, it can't be you know, you're all wrong. That's it,
you know, and it was itwas not about science, It was
about that the official story is thirteenthousand years ago Clovis arrived in America and

(54:28):
if you are going to go againstthat, your careers are over right.
And that that was the position theywill put in. So in reality,
we have had evidence that Homo erectusor another hominin was in the America's extraordinarily
early, but people don't like toremember what happened. It is a race
that from their perspective, right,So, yeah, one of the other

(54:49):
things that I think, um,you know, is pretty fascinating just from
a perspective of Yes, Homo sapiensas a group of human eye have certain
behavior patterns and do certain things usetools. We have these big brains,
and I know recently there have beena number of studies about you know,
prefrontal cortex development and things about youknow, essentially, how do how do

(55:14):
we get from this tool using supersmart ape to this you know entity that's
making you know, cars float inspace. And so one of the things
that I read recently and Andrew andI are digesting over the course of this
last week is that, um,there's this potential new theory about potentially sixty

(55:37):
seventy thousand years ago there was thisgenetic variation in the way that prefrontal cortex
um neurochemistry happening in some generation UM, And I just kind of wanted to
get your take since again just speakinto the expert. You know, when
do you think that humans developed imagination, you know, developed abstract language.

(55:58):
Is that something that's come up inyour research. I read the paper,
so I know, I know whatyou're talking about. That the beginnings of
articular language, and that the waythat we structure our thinking so that we
can use temporal and space short you'relinking between things. That so if the
people aren't familiar with that that,you know, we take it for granted

(56:21):
that we can say, you know, I will I will go and get
the fish from the river at fiveo'clock, you know, and then we'll
have dinner on the rock here.But there are people who wouldn't be able
to conceptualize of what on the rockis or what later really means, because
there's only the thought of a stone, for example. But when you stop
under the stone with the fish onthe rock at five o'clock, you start

(56:44):
linking things in time and space,which as far as we know, most
animals can't do. Obviously we're nottoo up to speedies, but we think
that early hominunce also couldn't do that. There was just the rock. You
know. They would have heard therock the fish, you know, and
that's they wouldn't get the bit you'resaying on the rock and at five o'clock
and you know it's just the rockon the fish or the rock of fish.

(57:06):
You know, that we didn't havethe kind of thing. And they
think that the idea of meshing twoconcepts together, you know, came about
perhaps as recently as sixty to seventythousand years ago, perhaps earlier, but
I mean the moment it's looking stronglylike that because of the fact that we
have the cultural kind of revolution,of behavioral cultural revolution around that time.

(57:28):
And also the argument was that ifyou look at say the lion man sculpture
in Germany, which they said thatyou had to of course you had to
mesh to two things together, totake the concept of the man the lion
and mesh them together. That thisidea of bringing different spatial objects together in
some way again to this new developmentin the frontal cortex. But there's a

(57:51):
huge, huge anomaly in there becauseof course, like even if we say
that, okay, let's accept theargument that seventy thousand years this happened,
and seventy thousand years ago is animportant time, and I'll tackle that separately.
But if if we accept the ideathat this comes about seventy thousand years
ago, we still have a problembecause particular language, it necessitates, right

(58:13):
that a child is exposed to thiskind of thing in this language structure in
their formative years, right, andthat it has to be persistent. So
for several years during your very earlyyears, you know, your toddler period,
you need to be with people thatare using this language system for the
brain change to occur. So theyalso need an existing slight brain change that

(58:34):
allows to happen something's already happened.But you then also need to be exposed
writic language for the brain the furtherchanges to occur in the frontal lobe so
that you can use particular language.Right now, This is a special sort
a hard barrier in evolution because obviously, if you have nobody, it's a
chicken egg. You know that,Yeah, you have the nobody to sit

(58:57):
and expose you to it by talkingto you in that language. No matter
what brain change is possible for you, there's no way for you to develop
that, right, And so it'srecognized eating the paper, this is really
an anomally. This is a realproblem. And the guy tries to speculate
that, well, maybe two kidscame up with this, because maybe two
kids came up with this together andthey started somehow cobbling it together and speaking

(59:23):
to each other in this way,and that then between them it occurred now
and that are to the point you'remaking earlier. These have to be kids
that are you know, between orat the time they're positing between one and
two and a half years old,versus you know, kids now even if
they don't have that sort of acursive language before the age of five,

(59:44):
they don't develop that sort of yearold two year old out on a rock
with the fish at five a clock, if I feel like I should just
queue up the X Files theme songright now, exactly. It gets to
that because you think, well,so you've got to have these two kids
being in the same place at thesame time and being able to spend a
lot of time together. So it'salmost like they had to be brother and

(01:00:05):
sister or in two families that happento live next to each other and both
come up with this idea to getit's straight where you're putting in odds here
that are lottery winning odds just havingthese kids together that then spent a lot
of time together and then both comingup with particular language would know nothing to
proceed it, to make them dothat and persisting at it long enough and
to develop these changes. But notonly that, right in that harsh world

(01:00:28):
of the time, we have toallow for them both surviving to adulthood and
I would imagine probably having to matewith each other to pass on these genetic
changes. Right also to be theretwo of them to speak to the kids
and everyone started dying. In thisscenario, it's very quickly going to disappear
this right, because then you needtheir children to be exposed to it.
So there's only two people on earthat that point who have a bit.

(01:00:50):
So they now have to nurture thatlanguage in a coming generation. So they
have to have had children, thosechildren had to survive, They had to
spend time talking to them in particularlanguage. You know, you start going
into this what is absurd, likejumps to get this to work. It
quickly looks very absurd that they youknow that they then basically have to be
teaching the kids this language. Andthis is all having gone past what is

(01:01:14):
obviously a jump at the point ofthem being able to invent a language that
their brain couldn't conceive, right,because they don't have the structure in the
brain that allows you to use particularlanguage. So how they coming up with
it and talking to each to eachother, which then caused it to develop.
It doesn't make sense. It islike a chicken and egg. You
can't you can't really have the languageout the brain structs, and you can't

(01:01:34):
have the brain structure without the language. Yeah, it is a bad part.
So straight with what you really theninfer is somebody else is teaching the
people how to speak right, sono one's going to get like, no
academics going to go there. Sothey'll give you this you know, long
kind of wounded. You know,maybe it's this, But you're inferring somebody

(01:01:55):
else can use particular language because we'vealready been told there's no other way to
develop it set being exposed to itfrom somebody's already using it, right,
so it's a huge hurdle. Andthen you know, I don't think they
kind of look at the paper.I don't think he covered it, which
his best shot, but it doesn'tI don't buy it. It really is
a hard barrier. The only waywould be if there's already existing human group,

(01:02:17):
so say some I know, Iwould say loss, but a culture
or a group we don't know aboutthe hard particular language, and somebody from
it teaches these children or otherwise youactually infer alien visitors, you know,
teaching the modifying them, giving themthis this genetic change is the brain structure
change, and then teaches them language, which is the kind of thing you're
getting legends and it bringers of language, and somebody, some sharman was you

(01:02:39):
know, out not thinking too abstractly, and a certain fungus and then rots
this fungus back to his tribe.And then dudes, you know, I
talked to a friend about it.We said, yeah, could it have
been you know, psychedelics. Butthe thing is that it's like, well,
as a child, would you beeating huge quancerts of psychedelic enough to

(01:03:00):
be continue exposed to this spirit talkingto you right in how many times would
you give your baby magic? Mush? I mean, I mean you know,
so I did did wonder that before? Yeah, it just seemed like
so unlike you'd keep giving psychedelics toyour baby, and you know, maybe
this isn't maybe this isn't a goodidea. It's crazy. Yeah, talk

(01:03:21):
about like a pleavious culture that hadthis this already developed, that they're the
ones passing it on. All we'redoing in that scenarios, punting it further
back in time, like if youguys were just quishing it, I'll cut
again. I can do it.I have the power. Seventy thousan years
ago. It's you know, there'sit's an interesting time and I don't know,
if you want to, we cansort of expand it because of course

(01:03:42):
that is the time of the recentout of Africa migration allegedly. Okay,
so so of course we have alot of interesting things happening at that point.
Now, the argument is that buyaround that period, you know,
there's although there's some neander Fools andothers out in Eurasia, modern humans you

(01:04:02):
know are not are not out yetthey're in Africa, right, and that
there is a a migration. There'stwo crucial migrations, if you like,
in the out of Africa or recionout of Africa model run around one hundred
twenty thousand years ago supposedly right,which which failed and he got as far
as the Near East and they diedout right. And then there's inferred that

(01:04:23):
there's a second migration around about seventythousand years ago, and that this migration
goes on to populate Eurasia and thenAustralia and then finally America. This is
the conventional view now. Obviously,Ourians canna tear that apart very quickly for
people, because this important is yourEvery article you've ever seen in your life

(01:04:44):
talking about recion out of Africa willstart with the one thing we know for
certain is you know, not howelse we don't know. We know certain
is that modern humans came out ofAfrica around about seventy thousand and sometimes sixty
thousand. This is a key pointyears ago and populated Eurasia blah blah blah,
and then the rest you know,who knows, right, But that
is not at all solid. Whatyou actually find is this, there's a

(01:05:04):
key split here because if you seean Arskol, which is informed by geneticists.
Right, they will say, heardsixty thousand years ago. And we
know because you know, when welook at the genetic data, we can
see that the divergence event occurs aroundsixty thousand years ago, maybe fifty five,
but you know they'll give it tosixty thousand years ago. Okay,

(01:05:26):
Now, if you go you lookat Arsko has been informed more by anthropologists,
usually will say around seventy thousand toeighty thousand years ago, we've come
out. And that's because they're lookingat two different sets of things, physical
evidence, genetic data. Right,So how can those not mesh If we
talk about one migration event, itcan't be sixty thousand years ago and seventy
right, llus, it's just along ass migration event. Well, it

(01:05:49):
doesn't. It doesn't stack up,you know, it doesn't stack up.
And the reason why you've got twodifferent events this is something that people have
not in the scizes, have notyet got their heads around, which I've
I've struggled to get them to understandit. It's actually mind bogglingly simple.
Seventy three thousand years ago, youhave a really major event. You have
a cataclysm. Okay, you havea sudden cooling of the climate. But

(01:06:14):
then this person by the explosion ofthe Laketober supervolcano, biggest eruption. You've
a volcano and two million years massivemega die off event. Right, this
being froze up enormous constancies of dustand gas into the atmosphere due to the
prevailing currents. This material sloops aroundthe northern hemisphere based in circling the northern
hemisphere of our planet. It onlyamst like a nuclear winter type setting.

(01:06:36):
You've also got and you've got sulfuricacid rains. You know that the water
has been poisoned, plants are dyingoff, sun is being blocked, You've
got all those things that come withan event like that. Now anyone living
in the Northern hemisphere is having avery very bad time. Yeah. So
on top of what existing cooling,they've now got accelerated cooling, plus all
these other horrible things happening to them. You know, So what do they

(01:07:00):
do apart from dying? You know, obviously they retreat into areas where there
are survival niches for them. Youknow, we know Neanderthals father this,
but it's a mistake to think thatthey were Okay, there's evidence suggest Neanderthals
were once numbering hundreds of thousands,right, but not long after this,
Neanderfords are near extinction, right,I would suggest Neandiples have lost an enormous

(01:07:21):
population across Eurasia. Other homlines haveprobably gone extinct entirely. We have basically
disappearance pretty much of Homo sapiens inEurasia, which is what's happened to these
earlier waves. If you like,they're not waves really persistent population that there
already, they've been wiped out almostall of them, not all. And
then you have a few people whoare off in Western Asia who move west

(01:07:46):
because you know, if you imagine, like the smoke is coming up from
from Indonesia, right, so thiseffect is heading westward to you, as
in circles of globs, you arebeing pushed right away from the east,
right, so as it were,so you're going to have groups coming into
you. Imagine you're in Western Asia. You're gonna have groups coming into your
land, and you're gonna be juststand if you can speak, you're gonna
be hearing horror stories, right,or they're gonna infer to you, you

(01:08:08):
know, don't go that way.You know, bad news, you know,
and you and the animals can startdying. The weather's going to start
chain. You're going to be pushedright westward. And if if you're down
this in the Middle East, youin Western Asia. There's a point where
if you are pushed to the babelMan Dad straits right, which is it's
short crossing right across to m toEast Africa. Right, that is a
perfect engine. We know, that'san entry nextit point in and out of

(01:08:30):
Africa. What you see there isa climate migration. Seventy three thousand years
ago, a group of refugees makestheir way across the babel Man Dab into
East Africa. They carry with themnew new happler groups. We know how
basically you have mt DNA happler groups. UM what's it? Sorry, We've
got L three, which is usuallyconsidered in conventional models to be foundational to

(01:08:55):
all modern Eurasians, but not UM. And we also see a a patatorial
paternal happler group CET that appears inEast Africa. Now, when you track
which way these happler groups expand,they expand west and south right in Africa,

(01:09:15):
trang on a minute, If thesegroups are going out, if these
are the foundational group that go outand colonize Eurasia, why are they expanding
westward into Africa? Right, that'sanother little hang on a minute, that's
a head scratcher. And then youhave another problem because say that these are
new mutations arose in Africa just beforethe migration out. That's the conventional argument.

(01:09:36):
But maternal and paternal happler groups differentiatingtheir mutation rates by a factor of
ten. Right, So the chancesof you gain and new mutations on both
the maternal and paternal lines at thesame moment in the same small group in
East Africa is mind bogglingly unlikely.What you instead have is obvious evidence of

(01:09:58):
an incursion by a new population.Now this is further confirmed when you look
at the such engine technology, thefirst signs of arrowheads. Right. You
also you get the earliest perceptual art. You get the you know, down
in the Blonde's caves in that area. You get these zigxact patterns and stuff,
the use of oak with drawing artwork. So you've got cultural shift along

(01:10:19):
with new genetic lines. This issort of mind boggling. You'd think surely
any academic you know in these fields, because see this, this is a
glaring red flag for a for anincursion and for cultural diffusion, right,
but no that they seem to somehowmiss him, even with all the oven
even if it's spreading to the southand to the west. It's quite bizarre.

(01:10:41):
So this is what's going on atseventy three thousand years ago. And
now we have the climate data,right which is come up saying that that
there was the worst drought and aridityof the region in lavant the Middle East
and North Africa right of known historypretty much around that time, seventy three
thousand years ago. And as oneleading scholar in that field said, it'd
been a very terrible idea to kindof walk down of Africa at that point,

(01:11:04):
because you're like walking from sub equatoryAfrica, which is perfectly safe.
Right. We know that lots studiesare quite recently saying that Tobo didn't have
a huge impact below the equator.Okay, so you're gonna leave your nice
little warm area and walk into theworst conditions, you know, walk kind
of into this this this bleak wasteland of death. Right, that's not

(01:11:26):
the time you start a migration outthe eye of Africa. It doesn't make
any sense. In fact, wedon't even know if it would have been
survivable. I would suggest it wouldn'tit. I mean, that's why people
are coming across the Baba man Daband these people are coming in with bows
and arrows, right, and theywould not be stoppable because you think about
it, they have a technological advantage. They are using arranged weapons, right.
So if there wasn't some kind oftruce made, which they may have

(01:11:50):
been, maybe they got welcomed in, but they would not have been able
to stop them. Because if youimagine, you know, you've got hell
at your back and you're you've gotbows and arrows and the people in front
of you've got spears, you're thewinners. Right, So there is there
is an we can see this,but the fact that they move into the
west, nobody stops them. Eitherthey're being it welcomed in or they're fighting
their way through it. But nobodystops these people, and then they know

(01:12:10):
they can't go back, right.So these are real, real signs of
a real event. We know theevent. We understand the Tobra event.
So what do we have next?So if we're disconnecting this story, say
seventy three founacies go is not thereason now of African migration. It's not
the founding of Eurasia and the Eurasianpeople. So what happens next, and
bear in mind this is the sameperiod that we've already touched on, is

(01:12:32):
that this particular language appears. Asyou know, there's a lot of other
stuppening in the behavioral revolution starts underwayaround this time, to a move among
people due to this catholicalism down inSoutheast Asia. People also, you know,
if you can, you're crossing theequator, right, you need to
get into the southern equator, right, So if you can get down into
Australia and some of the eastern islandsof Indonesia, they seem to be okay

(01:12:56):
that then again you've got another safezone. So you end up with two
refugea right for modern humans and Denisovanswe now, and probably some others right.
So again this is why you havethat condensation of languages I touched on
earlier. You've got refugees, right, so you've got a lot of different
groups they're trying to make their wayto safety. So you end up with
clustering of all sorts of groups thatdidn't used to live with each other because
they're all being forced by this climateevent, you know, into a tighter

(01:13:20):
contractive space. These two survival groupsare now locked in for a while while
the northern hemisphere recovers. I mean, we know there are some new anipals.
There's a few hominins that are survivingin certain areas, you know,
and the anipals in some bleak areasin Europe in the ice they become you
know, ice specialists. But there'sthere's then a climate improves, and then

(01:13:41):
around sixty thousand years ago, agroup moves north from Australia and then they
move across into Southeast Asia, acrosswith the islands and begin to spread again,
right, And this is the recolonizingof Eurasia. And it has nothing
to the group out of Africa.What's the Africans. Maybe some of them
came out a little later, butwe know the genetics points to an expansion

(01:14:05):
from the east. Again, thisis very clear. I'm not just putting
this out. If you look ata map of the basically the early groups
in Asia, what you find isthe earliest groups are right in the east,
and then we know that, thenthere's there's an event where there's a
migration as people start to move westward. And in fact, Europeans, the
European splinter group, don't arise tillabout thirty five thousand years ago. Europe's

(01:14:27):
not reached till then. Now lookon a map. Think to yourself,
if people have walked out of Africaseventy thousand years ago, how does it
take forty five thousand years to reachEurope? Right? Yeah, what an
extra Africa North Africa. It doesn'tmake any sense. And if you look
again, you look at the earliestsplinter groups, they're in East Asia.
Right, we know this, Thisis factual. Nobody disputes this. And
when they tested aboriginal DNA they foundit. The aberginal DNA suggests that these

(01:14:53):
people had split away from et subEquatorial Africans around seventy to seventy three years
ago, funnily enough, making themthe oldest distinct population outside of Africa.
You know that's foundational, really,and that then you have the East Asians
and then you have the Europeans.As these groups diverge off, Now,

(01:15:13):
how does that fit with people?Movie? Across from Africa, right,
and that Australia the last place.Yeah, and then it's They also found
that the closest relationships of genetics areAboriginals, Asians and Europeans cluster right away
from Africans. There's a tight clusterbetween them. They're clearly part of the
same group, the same migration that'sfully accepted. For a while, people

(01:15:34):
tried to argue that there was perhapstwo or three different migration events. Now
we know that that's impossible, thatthe clustering of these figos show that they
are they are from one population.Right. There wasn't a second wave or
something that was used to try andexplain this. That's collapsed. The fast
migration around the coast has collapsed.This idea that people are raced around to

(01:15:54):
Australia, that's collapsed. There's beena few attempts to try and you know,
prop up the old models. They'veall gone to the dustbin. Now,
all these these attempts and in fact, as we look at I says,
we look at Aboriginals, we're findingthey have astonishing genetic diversity, and
not only that they have the oldestvariants of the happler groups M and N,

(01:16:15):
which are genually the foundational basil Happlergroups of all year living Eurasians,
you know, and this is astudy about two years ago Collet the champions,
and that's why I really get off. But about a year or so
ago there was a study done andthey actually were expecting to find that the
oldest variants of happ groups M andN would be in Western Asia, basically

(01:16:36):
in the Middle East, logically becausesupposedly that's where you know, this group
has come out of Africa, thatthe L three was thought to be the
mother of M and N, andthat these East Africans had given rise to
M and N as they left therebasically two more mutations in quick succession,
which again is super unlikely because you'vejust had a mutation, right, this

(01:16:59):
led to L And then they're sayingthe minute they leave Africa, there's two
more and there's M and AN appear, right, this is super unlikely,
but that that was the dirt model. So and then they well, obviously
they're going to be the oldest variantswill be in the Middle East because that's
where they started from. And thisstudy said the weird thing was it turned
out that the oldest variants were anaboriginal Australians and then we couldn't works in
the bottle at all. Yeah,yeah, well see how it works because

(01:17:24):
you have a paradigm that you can'tsee beyond, so well to see what
all the evidence keeps pointing to whichyour models have collapsed, and that you
know it's a walkie as a zombie, right the reason now Africa is a
zombie. It's walking along. It'stwo different events merged together. It's the
into Africa escaping from Laketober's effects andthe out of Australia repopulating after these effects.

(01:17:47):
They've been merged together into this fearand that's why they always saying we
can't stand there and we can't standand there's many anomalies in it because it's
wrong and it's meshing two different thingstogether that cannot go together. And that's
why they keep giving them even datesit was eighty thousand, it was fifty
five sixty, because if you lookat him as evidence, they won't mesh
with the date. You have tochange. Eat just got the wires crossed

(01:18:10):
through and through, and I thinkof you know, we've got we've had
so many gnarly conversations on the show, and I feel like you know a
lot of them end with some solidhomework for our audience. But I feel
like you just dropped, like,Hey, your finals do next week.
Hop online and you're gonna have todig through all the things because that's one
hell of a rabbit so many thingsthere, Bruce. I appreciate you spending

(01:18:30):
so much time being super detailed here. I know this is something I say
on the show often, but itis not every episode that I get this
kind of brain number. Yes,that was really exceptional. It's intense as
hell, and I know that we'vewe've already taken it now. I know
that we've already like exceeded our timethat we had scheduled with you today.

(01:18:53):
And we appreciate the hell out ofyou for for doing the deep dive with
us before we cut you loose forfor the afternoon. Just hit us with
the U R the website address thatway people can continue to jump down the
rabbit hole with you. Follow yourwork online, walk us through that real
quick. Sure, yep. Ifpeople would like to, they can follow
me on well for website, AncientNews dot net, Bruce Fenton dot info

(01:19:15):
and also well for the other bookHybrid Humans dot Net and I'm on Twitter.
That's where a lot of people findme. I'm also in a few
episodes of Ancient Alien season fourteen atthe moment, so if people may see
me in there, and yeah,so I mean by all means, they
can follow me on Twitter or contactme via the websites and stuff if they

(01:19:36):
want to. Hell yeah, well, Bruce, listen. It's always a
pleasure of picking your brain having aconversation with you. We really appreciate you
carbon time for us today. Thankyou so much for joining us man,
huge great, thank you for muchand hopefully people will go out and get
a copy they forgotten extot Us aswell. I hope, don't worry,
don't worry. Awesome, be well, thanks Bruce worries us. Thanks having

(01:19:56):
one whoa Bruce that always got someknowledge to drop man. I thought,
you know, after our last conversationwith them, that we had gone down
a lot of different pathways together.But you know this stuff, I know,
Australia has really been in the newsquite a bit recently. You know,
all of our hearts go out todifferent Aboriginal populations and some of the

(01:20:19):
indigenous groups of people who have beendealing with these fires, you know,
in a particularly gnarly way. Animalpopulations you know, lost in in the
like billion or billion plus animals potentiallylost um. But something that I personally
was unaware of is just the possibilitiesof the indigenous populations being some origin point

(01:20:40):
forward Denisova or denisov n genetics.Yeah, the genetic lineage. I think
a lot of people talk about theDennis of N Cave and you know,
Denisov, the Denisova Cave, andlike how you know, people have kind
of reverse understanding of the migration patterneither from or out of Africa, And
it's really interesting to think about thepart potential here that there is equal opportunity,

(01:21:02):
equal possibility of genetic lineage coming fromaboriginal populations in African and moving across
you know, the Southeast Asia inthat way. It's really fascinating. It
really is right. And again itjust always brings me back to like we
don't really know shit, you know, Like we we we do have a

(01:21:23):
pretty good sense of what we thinkhappened, and we've done some amazing work
as a species and as a collectiveto like prior to crack the nut,
but hot damn, there's just somuch out there that still needs to be
explored and shoot on and seeing stuffwhere I think we throw around a lot
of numbers too. When people arethinking about you know, Homo sapiens um,

(01:21:43):
you know, one hundred plus thousandyear potential genetic lineage. You see
the Neanderthal, you know, sortof combinatory of genetic you know, intersection
with Homo sapiens. You see,you see these kind of like other little
handholds. But generally we're talking aboutyou know, between fifty thousand years,
hundreds something thousand years. But tosee that, you know, we're talking

(01:22:04):
about two and a half million years. We're still finding skeletal remains in China
right right that, We're still findingother skeletal remains that kind of continue to
redefine our sense of how actually oldsome of this genetic lineage may actually be.
You know, the footsteps in wasit crete exactly? Like things like

(01:22:25):
that. We're we're seeing, youknow, upright hominids walking around in areas
that we previously thought there's no way, you know, and million of years
prior to that that there is anupright walking erect hominid, right and so
I think it's just really just constantlyreminds us of the you know, main
thematic that you know, the showhas always been about. I mean,
this is from episode one. You'vebeen stressing this and we literally say it

(01:22:49):
at the end of every episode.But things like this, I think really
remind us that only in questioning allof these things are we going to continue
to ask better question? Yeah,for sure. And Bruce is just such
a thoughtful person, both in thisspace and others. Yeah, he's a
hitter for sure. And speaking ofhitters, next week's episode is going to

(01:23:10):
be interesting as hell because we havea hitter coming on the show straight up
if doctor David Miano. But ifyou're not familiar with that name, check
this out so you know the historyof of Lost Origins. We've had a
lot of intense conversations with researchers,experts, PhDs and everything in between,
individuals who are just tirelessly working totry to answer questions as it relates to

(01:23:33):
who we are, where do wecome from, and just solve the mysteries
of our chronology. Doctor David Mianoamazing dude, brilliant guy, right,
like this guy is, He's anancient historian specializing in the histories of the
Near East, Egypt, Greece,Rome, India, China, all the
things. He earned his PhD atthe University of California and San Diego in

(01:23:55):
like two thousand and six, Ibelieve. But he's the author of how
to Know Stuff and like several anthologiesof ancient works designed for classroom use.
And he is currently teaching at,I believe, the State College of Florida,
and he runs a YouTube channel.And on this channel, I've watched
a lot of these videos, Worldof Antiquity, Yeah, yeah, and

(01:24:16):
he takes a very thoughtful approach toI don't want to say debunking because that's
I feel like a little aggressive,but we're going to use it. He's
looking at a lot of these ancientmysteries and these theories that have been put
forth, and he's showing us whywe need to look at the evidence that
is being presented by you know,mainstream academia as the north Star. But

(01:24:40):
he's very thoughtful in the way thathe does it, and I think it's
going to be really really neat toget his perspective on a lot of the
stuff that we've talked about throughout thelast couple of seasons on this show and
just pick his brain and get histake. I think this is something you
talked about a lot. You know, he used the word uniformitarian like a
lot in first season, for instance. And I think like part of what

(01:25:00):
is really fun about what we dohere is you know, we're not we
are not, and hopefully nobody everfeels this way that we're telling you you
should think about this thing that way, right. I think, more so
than anything, it's always been asense of, hey, let's hear what
this person has to say. Idon't know if we agree with it,
but really interesting perspective. Let's hearthis other person has to say. And
I think it's really nice to beable to say, no, let's bring
somebody who's skeptical of the skepticism yeahin the mix, somebody who has heavy

(01:25:26):
academic articulation or a heavy academic abilityto articulate some of these things. And
I think that just it's such acool opportunity for our audience to be able
to say, all right, let'squestion our questioning. Yeah right, Yeah,
a little bit of fact checks goingon there yet on the Dead Dick
DA. So it's gonna be amazing. I'm really looking forward to it.
If you have not subscribed to theshow, help us out, you know,

(01:25:46):
do the thing for your homies,Smash the subscribe button, do the
five star written review, hit usup on social media. Let us know
who you would like for us tobring on the show. We're gearing up
for season four. It's a lotof work to coordinate these interviews. And
so there's somebody that's that's crazy.We are, we are indeed old.
But if there's somebody a researcher,an author, um, you know,

(01:26:08):
somebody that's put forth the theory thatyou really really want us to bring on
the show and did the deep divewith, just hit us up, let
us know, and we'll do everythingwe can to make it happen. So
tune in next week for our conversationwith doctor David Miano, and until then,
I'm Andrew. We challenge you toquestion the

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S03E18 - Bruce Fenton // The Forgotten Exodus

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S03E18 - Bruce Fenton // The Forgotten Exodus