S03E20 - Tom Carey // Inside Hangar 18

In this week's episode of Lost Origins, Andrew connects with Tom Carey to discuss all things extraterrestrial. As an authority in the field, Tom obtained his Ph.D. in Anthropology from the University of Toronto and is an Air Force veteran who held a top-secret crypto clearance. Tom has served as a Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) State Section Director for Southeastern Pennsylvania from 1986 to 2001

Alongside his partner in crime, Donald Schmitt, the two have co-authored several books including UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson, Witness to Roswell, The Children of Roswell, and The Roswell Incident. While Schmitt was unable to join the call, Andrew and Tom discuss their latest book UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson, the events that began at Roswell's Area 51 and that ended at Wright-Patterson, an ultra-top-secret Air Force base in Dayton, Ohio, and the enigmatic Hangar 18.

Episode Transcript

(00:36):
Hey, good morning, Happy Monday. Welcome to this week's episode of Lost
Origins. This week it's it's justAndrew Cruisin solo and we're really excited to
jump in this week's episode with ourspecial guest Tom Carey. But before we
jump into that, as always,we have to tip the proverbial hat to
the homies over at in Our Traditionsand Barren Company. I know that we've
been beating this drum something fears fromday one, but for real, if

(00:59):
you guys have not checked out thatwebsite, it is well worth the visit.
In the end the session, it'sintertraditions dot com. They have tons
of resources for you guys, doesn'tmatter if you're into wellness, if you're
into esoteric knowledge, you're into ancientmysteries. Everything in between. Their library
and catalog is deep as hell andit's going to give you everything you need
to jump down a rabbit hole forthe rest of the week. So jump

(01:22):
over there and just produce that library, pick up something, let them know
that your friends from Lost Origins sentyou, and I'll be well in the
world. So this week is goingto be one hell of a conversation with
our new friend Tom Carey. TomCarey is one hell of a guy and
he obtained his PhD in anthropology fromthe University of Toronto. He's also an

(01:44):
Air Force veteran who's held the topsecret Cryptoclearance. He has been a mutual
UFO Network or mouff On state Sectiondirector for the Southeastern Pennsylvania Chapter from nineteen
eighty six to two thousand and one, and him and his partner in crime,
Donald Schmidt, who unfortunately is notgoing to be on the call.

(02:05):
We're gonna get him at a laterdate, have written droves of books that
focus on all things extraterrestrials, UFOE, Right Patterson, Roswell, and everything
in between. Some of the booksthat these two have authored include UFO Secrets
Inside Right Patterson, The Witness toRoswell, The Children of Roswell, the
Roswell Incidents. Starting to see atheme there, and today we are going

(02:28):
to be ripping through a ton ofstuff with Tom. Specifically, we're going
to be discussing their most recent book, UFO Secrets Inside Right Patterson, but
we're also gonna be talking about theevents that began at Roswell and Every Area
of fifty one, which everybody's prettyfamiliar with, but how it ended at
Right Patterson, which is an ultratop secret Air Force base in date in

(02:50):
Ohio. And so this was atalking point that I really did not know
too much about heading into this conversation. It's pretty fascinating though that, you
know, when we think of extraterrestrialencounters, you think of UFO incidents,
everybody's brain goes to Roswell, NewMexico area fifty one. Very few of
us, I feel, you know, think Ohio. And so Tom really

(03:12):
really shed some interesting light on thesituation, what's happening here, the cover
up, conspiracies and everything in between. And he's going to take us down
one ridiculous rabbit hole that ends atHanger eighteen, which is something that I
think everybody's going to really enjoy.So we're just gonna queue up this skype
call and do the thing. Herewe go, All right, Tom Carrie,

(03:42):
welcome to this week's episode of LostOrigins. We are very very excited
to welcome you to the show.Thank you for carbon time for us today.
It's my distinct pleasure, Andrew,I'm glad to be with you.
Yeah, this will be a lotof fun. A lot of fun,
very much looking forward to the conversation. What I'd like to do is just
kind of set the stage for today'sepisode. We always like to make sure
that first time guests on Lost originshave the opportunity to hit us with their

(04:05):
backstory, the thirty five thousand footview, history, lesson, whatever you
want to call it. You havesome pretty pretty gnarly accolades here in background,
and I would just like for youto walk our listeners through, who
is Tom Carey right, what doesthe Daily Delta look like? What got
you to this moment? Just kindof give us that backstory, Tom well

(04:27):
Uh. I was born and raisedin Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and graduated from
Temple University of A Fox School ofBusiness, and I joined the the I
was baseball player, football player,basketball player and got a athletic scholarship to

(04:51):
Temple University in Philadelphia. Played mostlybaseball, and I had a few offers
for major league teams back then andturned them all down to further my education,
and I joined the Air Force,got a top secret clearance, top

(05:14):
secret crypto clearance, and became inthe Air Force. I became interested in
anthropology, physical anthropology. It'd bemore distinct and got a master's degree.
While I was stationed at McClellan AirForce Base in Sacramento, California, got

(05:36):
a master's in anthropology, followed itas far as I can with a force
pen for the next four years inToronto at the University of Toronto, going
for a doctorate, which I didnot receive. I guess several factors factored

(05:57):
in there. I was a bighockey fan, and as you know,
Toronto's the cradle of hockey distraction capitalfor you, they're there, right,
And we used to get four gamesa week on TV. We got the
Maple Leaf games, the Buffalo Sabersgames, and the Montreal Canadia That's how

(06:18):
they pronounced it up. There's aMontreal Canadians game. So we had an
average of four games a week.I watched too much television, but Andrew,
I think that was all a coverfor at some point I became over
Oh. I just had this feel, this fear of failure. I was

(06:40):
overcome by a fear of failure forgetting my doctorate. I don't know why,
but I just didn't. I completedmy coursework, and I'm a field
type person. I like field workand I didn't have any field work.
My my advisor there had a thecadaver of an orangutang orangutan in her laboratory,

(07:06):
and I'm just not a dissection,you know, a dissection type person.
That didn't work out for me.But like I said, I do
like getting out in the field,and I didn't have it there. But
I was overcome by indecision and fearof failure. So I was married.

(07:30):
I got married in Sacramento when Iwas there in the Air Force, and
my wife of fifty one years isstill with me, awesome. And I
have two children, a son anda daughter, and they're grown. Of
course, son lives in Florida.The daughter lives in upstate New York.
So that's it in a nutshell.I became interested in UFOs as a teenager

(07:59):
and read a few books, whichvery very interesting. But when the book
called the Roswell Incident came out innineteen eighty, I was blown away.
I was blown away it because we'renot talking about lights in the sky.
I was a MUFAUN States Section directorfor a number of years and most of

(08:22):
those cases that I handled were Gee, I saw this, I saw this
lighting. This guy it went thisway and that way, and oh,
boy, tell me more, youknow, got got tired of that.
And having a background in anthropology andarcheology. In the nineteen ninety one,

(08:48):
I became aware of these two fellowsat the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago,
Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, werereopening the Roswell matter. Because between
the time and the first publication ofthe book nineteen eighty and by nineteen nineties,

(09:09):
that was it. There was nothingin it, there was nothing more.
But they were reopening the case.And I asked them what they had
what they had been doing about tryingto find the group of archaeologists who allegedly
stumbled upon the down craft and bodies, and they said that they had basically

(09:31):
done nothing. And since these archaeologistswere from the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia,
I said, well, look,I have a degree in anthropology at
the University of Pennsylvania's just a littleshort train ride from Huntington Valley to Center
City, Philadelphia. Let me havea crack at trying to define those anthropologists

(09:54):
from the University of Pennsylvania. Sothat's how I became active in the investigation
that was nineteen ninety one. Itook my first trip with Randall and Schmidt
to Roswell in nineteen ninety three andin nineteen ninety and if you're know much

(10:18):
about the case, the golden yearfor the case was nineteen ninety seven,
which was the fiftieth anniversary of it, of the crash, and there was
wall of wall coverage on CNN andNBC and what have you of of the
fiftieth anniversary goings on down in Roswell. And after that, most of the

(10:43):
people that were involved in the caseleft the field. And so, being
a q FOS member q FOSH asDon Schmidt was, I hooked up with
Don in nineteen ninety eight to continuea proactive investigation of the case because most

(11:09):
of the other people involved, youknow, Stan Friedman, Don Berliner,
even Kevin Randall himself went on toother things. But I wanted to,
as Don did, continue a proactiveresearch of the case because we felt there
was more to be learned. AndDon and I took our first trip together

(11:33):
as a team down to Roswell inthe May May of nineteen ninety eight and
we've been a team ever since.I think that's like twenty one years or
something like that, and we've writtenI have to add them up. I
think we've written. We've co authoredsix or seven books on the subject,

(11:54):
right right. The current one iscalled Folk Secrets Inside right Patterson Air Force
Base in Dayton, Ohio. Thatcame out in June. We have another
book coming out in between Thanksgiving andChristmas of this year. It's a coffee

(12:18):
table picture type book which covers theentire case. It's called Roswell The Chronological
Pictorial, and that will be outsometime between Thanksgiving of this year and the
December I'm sorry Christmas, just intime for Christmas. And I personally I

(12:41):
liked that book. It took mea while to put it together. And
it's it's a picture with captions anda narrative of the entire timeline as we
see it, of the Roswell case. So you can look for that,
you know, sometime between those parameters. We have another book, our last

(13:05):
what we believe will be our lastRoswell book. It's already at the it's
already at the publishers. It's calledRoswell The Ultimate Cold Case File Closed,
Roswell Closed, and it's our finalbook because everybody's dead. We feel that

(13:31):
we moved the case from the fiftyyard line down to the one yard line,
and the only reason we haven't pushedit across the goal. Although we
are satisfied with that we have theright story and the right people involved.
The only thing we're missing, Drew, is a piece of physical evidence that's

(13:54):
incontrovertible. There have been a fewclaims over the years like, oh,
we got this piece, we gotthat piece the the well they call them
the little little atoms or something.The u are different than what would be
found on earth, but nothing thathas been agreed upon. So that's that's
what we're missing, and that's whywe're sort of at the goal line,

(14:18):
uh, trying to get a pieceof incontrovertible physical evidence. Yeah, that
book will be out either because likeI said, we finished it. It's
at the publishers. It'll be outat the latest in June of next year.
Okay, case closed, got it, And I think that's a great

(14:39):
jumping off point I mean for formy next question for you. I mean,
first of all, thank you forfor walking us through that chronology there.
That's that's super thorough and it's goodto have the context. Um I
mean you're definitely a force to bereckoned with within the ufology arena. I
mean you're your partner in crib Donaldas well. Right, And so what
I'd like to do You talked aboutphysical evidence, and I think that we
should definitely start with some of thearchaeological digs that you guys did at the

(15:03):
actual Roswell crash into Brieffield, Right. And I believe you guys did three
digs, Is that correct? Uh? You know, I've lost count.
We've had a number of smaller digs. The biggest dig drew that we did
was in two thousand and two,sponsored by the Sci Fi Channel. Very
cool, Yes, and they paidfor everything and it was overseen and conducted

(15:31):
by the University of New Mexico's Officeof Contract Archaeology. We made the proposal
of what we wanted to do,where we wanted to dig, and they
accepted and so they they actually conductedthe dig just like any other dig that

(15:52):
they did. This this one wewere looking for physical evidence from a an
alleged crash of a UFO in nineteenforty seven. Now we've identified three sites
associated with the Roswell crash, socalled the Briefield site which you just mentioned,

(16:15):
which is the largest of the threesites, and it's closer to the
town of Corona, New Mexico thanit is to Roswell. And what happened
was on the evening of July second, nineteen forty seven. I had to
think there for a second July second, nineteen forty seven, late in the

(16:38):
evening, maybe after eleven o'clock,there was an explosion. We get just
from eyewitnesses who remember hearing a muffledexplosion during a thunder storm thirty three miles
south of the town of Corona,New Mexico. It exploded and rained down

(17:00):
all this debris in small pieces.And it also we believe that there were
five alien occupants on board. Twoof them were thrown out by the explosion
and came to rest at a sitetwo and a half miles east southeast of

(17:23):
the Brieffield site. So we believethat's called We called that the deep Procter
Body site because it was De Procterwho was a boy of seven years old
at the time of the crash,and he discovered the wreckage on the Briefield
site with Mac Brazil. The followingmorning. He was with Mac and it

(17:48):
was de Procter in nineteen ninety four, who told finally told his mother about
this site where he said that Macfound quote unquote something else, and we
believed that that something else was twobodies, and there were a total of

(18:11):
five altogether five bodies. And thethird site, after the ship exploded in
the air, ejecting two of itsoccupants, the inner cabin or some sort
of escape pod or inner cabin thatwithstood the explosion, continued on for another

(18:34):
thirty to thirty five miles before itlanded came to rest about thirty two miles
north, directly north of Roswell,So two miles. I mean, it's
still airborne at that point. Ithasn't like completely crashed, and it's not
like like sliding across the earth forthirty miles. And I want to make

(18:56):
sure I'm tracking you correctly. ItUh, you've got you, You've got
the de Briefield site, and thenyou've got the two and a half miles
east southeast the de Proctor site,and then it continues on for another thirty
to thirty five miles before it touchesdown, and we believe we call that

(19:17):
the impact site. Okay, Okay, yeah, we call that the Impact
site. When there were three occupantsfound there besides the inner cabin or the
tears you know, uh tiar shapedescape pod something like that. There were

(19:37):
three occupants, two of whom weredead and one was still alive when the
military arrived. And when the youknow, some of the civilians actually arrived
before the military, and they sawthis one alien with a large head three
and a half feet tall with alarge head walking around and uh also two

(20:02):
two of the two of them werekilled. So because a total of five,
two at the two at the Deproctorsite, three at the Impact site,
and so we had a that justgives you the background on the sites
we had. The one that hadthe most wreckage was the Briefield site and

(20:22):
that's where we did our archaeological digin two thousand and two with the University
of New Mexico because we felt theyou know, that had the most wreckage,
we had the best chance of findinga piece there, and unfortunately we
didn't find any any incontrovertible piece ofphysical evidence. The military had scoured,

(20:48):
had vacuumed the site, as abetter term, they had vacuumed the site
and so many years had intervened,and there's it's windy out there, a
lot of wind, and the wasfeather light. So anything that remained that
the military didn't get was blown hitherand yon and it would be a needle

(21:11):
in a haystack type find if youever found the piece there. But we
did. We followed normal archaeological procedurein digging the site. And what we
did find was when the last dayof the excavation, we brought in the

(21:34):
archaeologists favorite tool, the back home, all right, and we had stories
of back in from nineteen forty seventhat said there was a gouge, a
large gouge created when the ship skimmed, might have skimmed the ground before exploding,

(22:00):
and it was apparently like five hundredfeet long. And uh, we
knew, we knew the general trajectoryof that gauge. So we had this
back hole through a scoop er,you know, scoop right at a right
angle, uh like forming a Tright across where we thought the gouge was.
And there we saw we could tellthat the earth had been disturbed in

(22:25):
a V, in a V shape, maybe about three feet deep at the
at the apex of the V andto a couple of feet at the top.
So there was a v that wecould see of what we were in
the archaeology we call Aolian or windborndeposits that had filled in this V and

(22:48):
so, and it was right wherethe people said the gouge was. So
to us, that was physical proofof the gouge or where the ship had
skimmed the ground before exploding. Sothat's the best thing we found. We
didn't find any memory metal or anymetal at all, and we didn't find
any hub cops or steering wheels orfog lights or anything like that. So

(23:18):
that's what we did. That wasthat was the big dig. There have
been smaller ones scattered about over theyears. And uh, we have a
friend of ours named Frank Kimbler wholives in Roswell. He's a he's a
geologist that teaches geology at the NewMexico Military Institute, and he goes out

(23:44):
on his own with a metal detectorand whatever else geologists use and has picked
up has found little pieces of aluminumtype material and uh he's had some of
the mantalies which apparently display according toFrank, a isotope structure different from anything

(24:11):
on earth so interesting. So hethinks that, you know, those are
little pieces of the ship, andthey are small. To us, it
looks like aluminum or just foil froma say, a pack of cigarettes or
a Hershey bar or something like that. So we do have a little difference

(24:33):
of opinion as to what those littlepieces represent. But Frank, you know,
Frank has been on television and whathave you, and uh, you
know, they just to us,they just look like little pieces of aluminium.
And the description we got from thewitnesses who were at the curve sites,
they don't describe pieces that's small.They describe all of the wreckage being

(24:59):
like palms, you know, likethe palm of your hand side. So
we don't we don't have any descriptionsto tiny little pieces. So there is
a little difference of opinion as towhat those things represent that Frank has found.
But uh, you know, he'she goes out periodically, so you
never know. So, uh,those are those are the physical steps we

(25:23):
have taken. We believe that someof the ranchers, the Corona ranchers and
ranchers outside of Roswell who got tothe site first normally you know, you
know, they would pick up Theynormal people would pick up samples right and
put them in their pockets. Sowe believe that that has happened, but

(25:45):
so far none of them have comeforward. We've heard rumors that the that
the Brazils, who mac Brasil wasthe foreman that of that ranch, h
the brief field side, he wasthe foreman. It was a sheep ranch.
We've heard rumors over the years thatthere were pieces in the family Abrasil

(26:07):
family that they kept, but theytell us no. But we have others
who say, well, they talkedto so and so brasl and he said
they had pieces. So, youknow, we just have not been able
to break through on that ground.Wow, that's intense. We do have

(26:27):
to take just a quick break,but when we jump back in, let's
definitely continue down this rabbit hole.So more from Tom Carey after the break.

(27:08):
All right, welcome back to thisweek's episode of Lost Origins. This
week, myself and Tom Carey arediscussing all things Roswell, Area fifty one
right, Patterson Hangar eighteen, allthings extraterrestrials. So before the break,
we were really starting to rip intoarea fifty one and let's just jump right
back in. Let's talk a littlebit about Area fifty one then, because

(27:30):
I think that's like the most commonconception is that after the Roswell crash,
a lot of the wreckage, thedebris, the bodies, what you know,
all the things went back to Areafifty one, and that's you know
what has basically created this this phenomenaaround that that enigmatic site down in New
Mexico, insofar as the huge Facebookevent that turned out to be, you

(27:52):
know, a giant like just jokethrough and through that went down recently.
But but either way, like mostpeople are so seate Area fifty one with
the Roswell crash. In your mostrecent book, you guys actually talk about
how like that site is, Idon't want to say a decoy, but
for the lack of a better term, it's like distracting people from where the
evidence was actually moved, and thatwas up to right Patterson up in Dayton,

(28:15):
Ohio. And so what I'm whatI'm hoping you can do is just
kind of explain, you know,your work, your research around the chronology
of Area fifty one, but thenalso like what motivated the movement of all
of this physical evidence up to rightPatterson, you actually have a backwards drew.

(28:37):
Catch me up, then let's doit. When I you know,
whenever I give a talk, Isay, yeah, how many people have
ever heard of Very fifty one?And all their hands go up. Right
Then I say how many people haveever heard of Hanger eighteen? And about
half of the hands go down.Then I say how many of you have

(29:02):
ever heard of Right Patterson? Andnone of the hands remained. They're all
the hands go down. But whathappened was that the roswell wreckage in the
bodies. They did not go toArea fifty one in Nevada. They went
to right Patterson Air Force Base,or at that time was called Right Field

(29:26):
in Dayton, Ohio. That's whereall that stuff went. And why is
that, Well, that's because duringWorld War two Right Field and Patterson Field
became militarized. And they were startedby the Wright brothers back in the early

(29:51):
part of the last century, butthe military took it over most of it
in World War one, and byand by World War two they they had
really defined roles. And at RightField they had this hangar as called Hangar
twenty three, where all captured Germanand Japanese aircraft were taken to reverse engineer

(30:19):
them, basically tear them apart,to find out what made them work,
and to define countermeasures and create newaircraft, fighter planes and what have you
that would defeat them in battle.So they already had this division called the
Foreign Technology Division, which back thenmeant people we were at war with,

(30:44):
and they had a facility that actuallywas in the business of back engineering and
tearing things down and analyzing, tryingfinding out what made them tick. So
when the Roswell crash happened, thiswas really foreign technology right so it was
the natural place to go. Sothat's where they took it to Hangar twenty

(31:08):
three, and the bodies also rightright Field had an advanced aeromedical squadron,
aero medical facility, all the latestmedical things, gadgets and what have you,
and that's where the bodies went.So if there were other crashes or

(31:29):
other artifacts that came into the hourpossession, that's that's where they went.
Right right Field right Patterson Air Forcebased Dayton, Ohio. So what happened
was that during the mid fifties,Lockheed Aircraft Corporation in California Bright Patterson was

(31:55):
becoming too you know, the cityhad grown up around the base and it
was become too populated and the testingof aircraft, you know, once in
a while you have a crash.So they said, okay, we can't
do it. We can't test ouraircraft here anymore. Number one, it's
too busy, too easy to getspies in and out, and if we
ever have a crash, you runthe risk of crashing into a neighborhood or

(32:21):
downtown the Dayton, Ohio. So, with the aid of Lockheed Aircraft,
they found this place in Nevada nearGroom Lake, which was which was very
secluded desert area. It was adry lake bed and very remote, good

(32:43):
for testing aircraft. So, beginningin nineteen fifty four, fifty five Area
of fifty one, which was simplya plot on the map. It had
no cosmic significance. It was strictlya quadrant on the on the BAP the
map of Nevada. And so that'swhere they built their this facility to train

(33:12):
to develop spy planes. That wasthe original concept. The U two spy
plane and the SR seventy one spyplanes were developed at Area fifty one.
That's why Area fifty one came intoexistence northwest of Las Vegas, Nevada.
Okay, So so nothing to dowith UFOs. But what happened was uh

(33:39):
oh. And we have word frompeople who worked at Foreign Technology at Wright
Patterson that the that the UFO typewreckage all went to, they shipped it
to Area fifty one in Nevada somewherein the nineteen eighty two to eighty three
time frame because Bright Patterson was becomingtoo well known for a reason which I'll

(34:07):
get to. So it was shifted. All that stuff went to Area fifty
one in Nevada in the early sixties, which which nobody really knew. And
so what happens is nineteen eighty nine, this fellow named Robert Lazar, who

(34:27):
claimed to have worked at Area fiftyone, said that his job was working
on captured or downed alien spaceships flyingsaucers. He said that was his job.
He said they had eight hangers builtinto the side of the wall in
an area in h called S fourvery secret area of Area fifty one.

(34:52):
He worked in those hangers and theyhad a spacecraft from another another word world
in there. And so that wasRobert Lazar. That's how Area fifty one
became known because up until that point, UM the say the U two,

(35:13):
There was a big international incident inthe nineteen sixty we had a utube crash
over the Soviet Union, and theU two was designed to overfly the Soviet
Union at an altitude that the SovietUH fighter planes and the rockets couldn't reach.

(35:34):
Well. By nineteen sixty they theydowned the utube that was flown by
Francis Gary Powers over Russia and UH. The U two became famous, but
it was never mentioned where where thething was developed, which was Area fifty
one, and the US government neverreally admitted to an area of fifty one

(36:00):
until just before our book, whencalled Inside the Real Area of fifty one
came out in nineteen twenty thirteen,all of a sudden, the CIA admitted
that there was a facility that calledArea fifty one in Nevada. Up until
that point, they never would admitit. Bill Clinton in nineteen ninety six

(36:24):
admitted that there was a facility there, but he never called he never used
the name Area fifty one. Hejust said there was a facility there.
Because it was being sued by acouple former employees there who were claiming to
have gotten terminal diseases because one ofthe things they did there was they they

(36:46):
burned hazardous material and open air pitsthere and they became sick and some died
and a suit was filed against theUS government, uh, you know,
for wrongful deaths and uh so UhBill Clinton did admit to a facility there,

(37:07):
but he never named it. Andit wasn't until our book came out
in twenty thirteen that they finally admittedthat there was an facility called Area fifty
one there. So that's how itbecame associated with UFOs. It was Robert
Lazar had done it. So Uh, Robert Lazar, I don't if you've

(37:30):
ever seen him, he presents well, he's very glib. I think he
was too young to have all thedoctor's degrees that he claimed to have had.
And uh a friend of mine wholived in Boston near MIT, which

(37:52):
was one of the schools that Lazarsaid he had a doctorate from, interviewed
him and he asked Lazarre question that, Okay, there's a historical site right
next to MT that every any studentwhoever attended there would know what what is

(38:14):
that site? In? Lazar didn'tknow, so on that basis. My
associate said that this guy's just nottelling the truth, at least about his
degrees. So so that that's howevery fifty one became known with the UFOs.
But people did not not many knewabout Right Patterson. Yeah, yeah,

(38:39):
they have heard of this, uhHangar eighteen, but that but they
didn't really associate that with any knownbase. But that came about in nineteen
ninety four. As I was gettingready to go to the University of Toronto,

(38:59):
this fellow in Florida named Professor RobertSpencer Carr, and he was no
professor at all, he was justa UFO buff started talking about friends that
he knew who had retired, youknow, Florida, big retirement community.
Right, so he had heard frommilitary retirees who had worked at Right Patterson

(39:27):
about this Hangar eighteen there where allthis the alien artifacts were stored. And
uh, he says, it's aHangar eighteen blah blah blah blah blah and
at Right Patterson. So that's howright Patterson got involved was because of the
retirees in Florida telling this one guy. And I remember hearing this guy on

(39:52):
their radio as I, you know, my thoughts were getting getting ready to
go to Toronto, and this storywas big, big it was. It
was Robert Spencer Cars fifteen minutes offame. But he was right about that
the uh he said there were bodiesstored there and that there was wreckage blah

(40:15):
blah blah blah, and uh sothat was but most people uh didn't remember
the the right Patterson part of it. And there is And to be honest
with you, there is no Hangereighteen. If you go if you go
to uh break Patterson today and asmany people do, and they say where's

(40:37):
Hangar eighteen? They say, well, there is no Hanger eighteen, never
was one, and they're right andthe red and the problem is that Hangar
eighteen is really the Hangar twenty threethat I was talking about. The reason
and the reason they called the Hangareighteen was because you need a schematic map.

(40:57):
And it all became clear to mewhen I was able to get a
map with a schematic of all thebuildings and hanging on the right right field
right Patterson. There's something called theBuilding eighteen complex. It consists of nine
buildings building eighteen A through eighteen Gor F or something like that, but

(41:21):
there's only one hangar in that complex, it's Hangar twenty three. So people
out of convenience just started referring toit as Hangar eighteen because it's in the
Building eighteen complex, the only hangerthere, and it's the one that does
all of the reverse engineering that tookplace. So that's the Hangar eighteen of

(41:43):
Lore. But in the taxonomy terms, it's real designation is Hangar twenty three,
but it's the Hangar eighteen of Lore. So that's how it got all
mixed up. And so what's thecurrent status of Hangar eighteen based on your
research and your worktime? I mean, is is it still like an active
facility? Is there? Are therestill reverse in? Yeah, they just

(42:07):
do testing of engines and stuff likethat. There, there's there's there's no
more. There's no more UFO stuffon the base because the base became too
known for that and people knew,you know, visitors to the basically all
wanted to know where Hangar eighteen wasand where the aliens were kept. So

(42:29):
we have a whole chapter in inour in the book that just came out
about the UFO secrets at at BrightPatterson. We have a whole chapter on
Hangar eighteen. It's how it allcame about. And we also have a
whole chapter on the Blue Room.The blue room is a is nomenclature for

(42:54):
the most secret room on any base. Now today, the most secret room
when any Air Force base is theroom that has all the computers in it
and the radar and all that sortof stuff. So that's what the blue
room is today. But back then, the blue room, because it's before
all the computers came in and allthat stuff. It was where all the

(43:17):
secret stuff was, and the mostsecret stuff was the alien artifacts. And
so Barry Goldwater, Senator from Arizonaback in nineteen sixty three, in addition
to being a Senator and the chairmanof the Senate Armed Services Committee, was

(43:38):
also a two star Air Force Generalmajor General in the Air Force Reserve,
so he wore two hats. Hewas a good friend of the Chief of
Staff of the Air Force back then, Curtis bomber LeMay, who from World
War Two fame rose to be theAir Force Chief of Staff in the nineteen

(44:00):
sixties. So Goldwater finds himself atR. Rake Patterson on a you know,
on a tour, you know,as the chairman of the Art send
An Armed Services Committee. And hesays, oh my god, he was
also a UFO buff by the way. Okay, and uh so he's at

(44:20):
right Ryke Patterson. He says,oh my goodness, I know there's a
room they called the Blue Room here, and that's supposed to we wear all
that wreckage is in the bodies andall that. So he says, I'm
so he calls up his friend,they were good friends, Curtis. He
calls up Curtis LeMay in Washington.He says, general, I'm here at

(44:44):
Ryke Patterson. I understand there's aroom here where you keep all of that
uh that uh uh you know,uh foreign uh, alien artifacts and body
everything associated with UFOs. By thattime, the term flying saucer had been

(45:07):
taken over by the term UFOs.So we're all about UFOs stuff. Is
Might I go into that room?And he says it was the only time
that LeMay you ever got really madat him. He says, no,
you can't go in that room.Hell no, I can't go in I
can't go in that room myself.And I don't believe that for a second.

(45:30):
Uh and uh, don't ever askme that question again, because if
you do, I'll see that yourcourt marshaled. Well, thank god they
were friends, right, sure,so, uh, Goldwater dropped. He
never asked them again, but uhbut LeMay wouldn't let him in and he

(45:51):
got really really upset about it.Yeah, so that was the Blue Room.
So we have a whole chat afteron that in our book. Very
cool. There's another chapter in yourbook that I'd like to to talk about,
or at least a topic that's discussedin your book, and that's Aliens
on Ice, right, And sowhen I was looking online, it's just

(46:13):
some of the synopsis and the Alienson Ice right, So there was yes.
So there's a snippet, uh fromfrom online that basically says it should
be clear from these testimonials that,in addition to physical crash wreckage, bodies
from another world were brought to andstored at right Patterson being with the Roswell
crash in July of nineteen forty seven. The evidence suggests that the bodies were

(46:37):
preserved in clear containers in a stateof chirogenic suspension by some combination of low
temperature and chirogenic gas or solution.Um, So, can you just share
with us some of the testimonials thatyou guys speak to and then also maybe
just like walk us through some ofthe credibility of these testimonials. I think

(46:59):
that would be fascinat for our listeners. Well, uh, before they had
cryogenic suspension, h hanger twenty threeslash eighteen, uh is right across the
alley from the cold storage room.Building eighteen f was a cold storage room.

(47:21):
So how convenient you know, uh, that you have this hangar eighteen
and the alien artifacts and then thebodies, and right across the street is
what they what they called the icehouse. It was the cold storage room.
So the bodies were kept there fora couple of years. And we
have testimonial from one fellow. AndI can't give you names because I got

(47:43):
so many names, uh in myyou know, in my head, I
couldn't give you the guy's name,I unless I looked it up. But
it's in the book. Because wename, we name names. Uh,
we just don't say as someone oran anonymous so we name name. So
we had one fellow he said,you know, I worked close to to

(48:06):
this building eighteen F which was thecold storage room. He says, but
you know, one hot summer daysand this is before air conditioning, Okay,
you know in hot summer days,well, we would smell of like
formaldehyde would waft down the would walkdown the street. Yeah, and he

(48:28):
says, I always I wondered whyit would have formaldehyde coming from that cold
storage room, because you know,they did cold cold testing of engines.
They they liked to call test airaircraft engines in the cold conditions, and
that might be part of what thatthat building was for. But he said,

(48:50):
I got I smelled this formaldehyde smellcoming down the street from that eighteen
building eighteen f So that's one guy. So at some point that the use
of these uh capsules with what wecall cryogenic suspension. I don't know what

(49:15):
gas they use in their nitrogen,I don't know, but something that keeps
them cold without having to use ice. And we have testimonies from several people
who found themselves they were eager ledthere for some reason, and they saw
even workers that were working on somethingthat had nothing to do with this,

(49:37):
but they would see these capsules,a number of capsules, and they said,
wow, what are those things?You know, So they went over
and looked at them and they couldsee these little bodies in there, about
three and a half feet fall tall, with these large heads. Clearly they
were not human. We have testimonialsfrom a number of people like that who

(49:59):
were like, uh, construction workersdoing some work down there, and they
were always told not to look atthe at the capsules, right, don't
look at anything, just do yourwork. But of course when they were
left alone, they would they wouldoverlook, and they all said they saw
these little diminutive bodies with large heads. Some of them were in various states

(50:24):
of dissection, and but at leastone was not was not dissected, but
the others were in various states ofdissection. So uh, that's that took
over for the ice room. Theice house was this cryogenic suspension. And
we have a picture in the book. Now I might be getting my books

(50:47):
mixed up, but we have apicture of the back the back of Hangar
twenty three, and you can seethese large tanks in the back, very
large tanks which contain nitrogen or somethinglike that like that. Now, why
would they have that at a hanger. Well, that's that's what they use

(51:09):
for cryogenic suspension. So we havethat at the back of Hangar twenty three
slash eighteen and uh again we namenames and there's there's no doubt as to
what was going on there. Wow, that's super intense. So I guess

(51:29):
my one of my last questions foryou, because I feel like this is
a loaded question as all get out, is how does Project blue Book fit
into this narrative right and into yourguys work in general. I mean,
if you can just walk us throughsome of the connections that you guys have
been able to piece together around Projectblue Book and all of these components,
I think that would be super fascinatingfor our audience. Well, uh,

(51:52):
right after Roswell, they needed someuh some organizations department to control the analysis
of the wreckage and the bodies andalso to control access to it. Because
even if you have a top secretclearance, it doesn't clear you for everything.

(52:16):
It's more or less desitated. LikeI have a top secret crypto clearance,
that doesn't mean that I can walkinto right patterns and say, all
right, I have a top secretclearance, where are the where are you
keeping the UFO artifacts? Now Ihave a topsico crypto which it's limited to
my cryptographic work, you know,And so they developed very loose organization called

(52:46):
Projects Sign, which concluded that theUFOs were real and blah blah blah blah,
that they weren't figments of people's badgean Asian. Well, somebody didn't
like that, so they disbanded ProjectSigned and created Project Grudge, whose purpose

(53:08):
was to debunk debunk flying saucers stories. But they kept happening, and so
in uh they created this this uhpublic relations outfit and that's what it was
because the Air Force kept getting phonecalls about what are the flying saucers UFOs?

(53:32):
And so they created Project blue Bookin nineteen fifty two to investigate and
hopefully draw conclusions as reports came in. So what happened was that, uh,
there there they tried to debunk everyevery report that came in. And

(53:55):
along the way, one of thescientific consultants was a fellow named Jay Allan
Heinik, an astronomer at the Universityof at Ohio State and uh this one
in nineteen sixty six. He Uhbasically, there were these sightings in ann

(54:19):
Arbor, Michigan, Dexter, Michiganthat made national headlines. So the Project
Blue Books sent him up there todebunk the what was going on, and
so he gets off the plane andbecause some of the sightings were near a
swampy area, he gets off theplane and all the reporters they rush up

(54:43):
to him and they said, Professor, uh, what's going on whatever?
And he says, well, youknow, in marshy areas there's this gas
called swamp gash and it when whenyou get swamp gas sometime and sometimes it
flights up and creates like a littlefireball swamp gas. So they all rushed

(55:05):
into the phone. Alan Heineck saysthe ann Arbor sightings that the Dexter Michigan
sightings are there's it's swamp gas.Well he never lived that down and he
became known as old Swampy and blueBook that the explanation was just unacceptable to

(55:27):
anybody with a thinking mind. Youknow, swamp gas and this is it.
So the Air Force threw up theirhands in nineteen sixty six right after
that, and they said, wegot to get out of this business.
So they threw it to the Universityof Colorado to conduct a three year study
of ufocases, which they did soin nineteen sixty nine they came out with

(55:52):
their report, which didn't debunk UFOs, but it just said they're they're not
a threat to national secure platy andbut they saw no further, no scientific
value that could be gained by continuingto investigate these reports, which which which
is untrue of course, but theAir Force used that to close down Project

(56:15):
Bluebook in nineteen sixty nine. Sotechnically they were rather of the US business
UFO business in nineteen sixty nine.But did that mean that UFO sighting stopped
on. No, people kept havingsightings, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, And uh, youcall up a you you call up a

(56:37):
base. They said, well,we're not We're not in the UFO business
anymore. Call your local police.So that's how they got out of the
UFO business was the they farmed.They farmed it out to the University of
Colorado. The h what's that?What was that? I can't remember the
fellaw's name. Oh, but heissued report and the thing was if you

(57:01):
read his report, there are casesin there that still remain unknown. But
they just said that said they werenot a threat to national security and that
there was no scientific value that theycould see that would be gained by continuing
to investigate them. So the AirForce use that report to shut it down.

(57:23):
Interesting, that's what they did.That's fascinating, super super super fascinating.
So listen, I know that wewere almost at time here. I
want to give you the opportunity toshare us share with the audience. You
know what you guys have coming downthe pike. I know you'd already mentioned
the two books that are coming outwithin the next year, one between November
and December, and then one Ibelieve next June. But what else are

(57:45):
you guys working on? I mean, how can people follow yours work online?
Do you guys? What's the websiteaddress? Just kind of do the
self pro thing for us. Yes, in addition to the books, we
have a website. It's called wwwdot Roswell Investigator dot com. That's all

(58:06):
one word, www dot roswell Investigatordot com. And uh, we we
have another field trip planned. Oneof the one of the early legends of
this case was that there was thisfellow named um his last name was Richards,

(58:28):
I forget Dan Richards, and helived near Corona. But he had
this secret cave where he would hewould take things a lot, you know,
like something from the military like arifle or we know he took a
machine guns on it and he wouldstore things in his secret cave. Well,

(58:50):
living near the site of the crash. Uh, Dan got to the
crash site and took wreckage and hestored it in his secret cave. We've
never been able to find that cave. But now we have two relatives of
Dan Richards. Richards died in nineteensixty five and he crashed his pickup truck,

(59:19):
so he so he was unavailable tous. We visited the Richards ranch
a few years ago and they werevery tight lipped and claimed they didn't know
where the you know, the kidthis cave was. But we have now
two other relatives of Dan Richards whohave agreed to take us to his secret

(59:44):
cave. And Uh, like Isaid, I'm a field person, I'm
looking forward to actually following through onthis to see if we can find Richards
cave and maybe maybe there's something stillleft in there. We no, but
that's always the hope. And uh, we also are planning something. Over

(01:00:07):
the years and investigating this case.Uh, we've come across a number of
famous people who were touched by thecase. That doesn't mean they were out
there at the crash site, butthat that that they you know, a
husband was involved or a relative wasinvolved, something that they were somehow directly

(01:00:32):
involved in the case in some manner, shape or form. And we have
a chapter in the book that's comingout next year called Touched by Roswell and
uh, some of the people that, just to name a few is uh
Mickey Rooney, um, uh,Shirley McClain, uh, Gordon McCray,

(01:00:58):
a host of others that were touchedby this case. And uh, we're
actually thinking of maybe doing a wholebook on that, but we have a
chat. We have a chapter inour upcoming book for next year, case
Closed, which if we do anotherbook, it won't mean case closed,

(01:01:22):
right right, But a number ofthe people who were actually touched by Roswell
in some manner, shape or formyou that you would you would recognize their
names. So that's exciting. Well, you'll definitely have to keep us in
the loop on that. And asyou guys are making progress, i'd love
to, uh, you know,have you guys come back on the show

(01:01:44):
and just connect with skn I andmake sure that we're you know, keeping
the audience up to speed on whatyou guys are working on and discovering out
in the field. I think it'sa really really amazing approach to ufology in
general. And you guys got tokeep fighting the good fight. Well,
thank you, thank you for thosekind were urgent. Keep and remember,
we know we have a book comingout again, another book, the picture

(01:02:04):
book coming out between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's uh, you know it's it's
our investigation in pictures with captions andwith a narrative too, So you might
look for that around Christmas time.Yeah, I think our audience would really
dig the hell out of that.That sounds like an awesome, awesome thing

(01:02:25):
for for people that visually see whatis being referenced specifically in our conversation as
well. Yeah, it should.It should be the companion to every book
ever written about Roswell because it bringsit brings the case to life. It
brings the case to life. That'sgreat. Well, listen, Tom,
I we really appreciate you carving outtime for us today. This was an

(01:02:46):
amazing conversation. We appreciate you doingthe deep dive that you did. Um.
You know, like I said,we'll have to link back up and
make sure that we get you andyour partner and crime back on the show
and just keep keeping the loop ofall the things that you guys have going
on. But we really appreciate thetime. Thank you so much, Tom,
thank you, thank you, Drew. It's it's been my pleasure.

(01:03:06):
Very good bye now all right,Well, hot damn. I hope that
you guys enjoyed that conversation as muchas I did. Tom is just one
hell of a thoughtful researcher. Hispartner in crime, Donald Schmidt, is
also just one solid, solid dude. You can check out their work online.
They have all their books available onAmazon as well tons of video content

(01:03:29):
throughout the web available for those two, so make sure that you guys check
it out. Lots of good questionsthat they are asking. Would highly encourage
everybody to just continue to explore allthe things. I found it super fascinating
when we start veering into the territorythat is right Patterson, Hanger eighteen,
the connections to Ohio, all thecover up stuff mean. I always love
myself a good conspiracy theory, sodefinitely definitely enjoyed that, and I'm looking

(01:03:53):
forward to having Tom back on theshow. But next time would really like
to try to get Donald on thehorn as well and just kind of have
roundtable discussion about what they are continuingto digging into. So next week's episode
is one that I've been looking forwardto for a long time. It's taken
us a hot minute to track thisindividual down. His travel schedule is very,

(01:04:15):
very, very hectic, and he'snot an easy guy to pin down.
But next week we are going tobe welcoming Brian Forrester onto the show
for the first time in the historyof Lost Origins. If you're not familiar
with Brian's work, man, Idon't know what the hell kind of rock
you've been living under. But Brianis an authority on megalithic works of South
America, but he's also best wellknown for his work around the perplexing ancient

(01:04:42):
elongated headed people of the area,more affectionately referred to as the Paracas skulls.
So this guy has basically written allthe books, I mean legitimately.
When we were coming through what wewere going to be talking to Brian about
on the episode, I counted morethan thirty books current in the wild,
So man calmed down a little bit. But he's recently completed a ton of

(01:05:06):
research around Gobackley Teppi as well.So next week when we get brand on
the horn, we're gonna be talkingabout the Paracas Gulls, because I mean,
you can't talk to Brian Forrester andnot include that as a talking point.
His trip to go Backley Teppi,what he was trying to find,
locate research, and just kind ofget his take on all the things that
he encountered there. And then mostimportantly, we're gonna be ripping into lost

(01:05:29):
ancient technologies. So it's going tobe one hell of a conversation. If
you've not subscribed to the podcast,just take a minute smash the subscribe button
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move the needles something fierce. Youcan check out the website loss dash origins
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We have articles written by previous guestsof the show, most of which

(01:05:54):
are exclusive pieces of content and publishingthat you cannot find anywhere else in the
wild. So it's not stuff that'sout in their books, it's not stuff
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(01:06:15):
Running a podcast is not an easyendeavor, nor is it something that is
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off is it definitely means the worldto us and every little bit helps.
So let's circle back next Monday forour conversation with Brian Forrester. Until then,
I'm Andrew and we challenge you toquestion every thought m