“I’d Kill Them Again” Said Detroit Mom Who Murdered Her Kids | Mitchelle Blair

A Detroit eviction turned into one of the most disturbing discoveries in U.S. true crime history. When officers opened a deep freezer inside Mitchelle Blair’s apartment, they found the frozen bodies of her two children—Stoni Blair and Stephen Berry—hidden there for years.

What unfolded next exposed years of child abuse, a system that failed to protect them, and a mother whose own words still haunt investigators.

This Detroit freezer murder case remains one of the most terrible examples of hidden domestic horror ever uncovered.

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Past Cases Mentioned in this Episode: 
DNA Solves Cold Case that was Buried for 20 Years | Coley McCraney
https://www.patreon.com/posts/bonus-dna-solves-135737189

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now part of the dark Cast Network. Welcome to indie
podcasts with a dark side. On March twenty fourth, twenty fifteen,
Detroit police went to an east side apartment at Martin
Luther King Apartments to carry out a routine eviction. Court
Officer Lee Gordon and her crew entered the apartment and

(00:20):
began clearing the rooms. The space was cluttered and smelt horrible.
Just inside the door sat a small deep freezer that
immediately caught their attention. It was sealed shut with bags
and other items stacked on top of it. As part
of the eviction process, they were instructed to check all appliances,
so when they pried it open, they saw what appeared

(00:43):
to be a human body with frost covering the face
and a plastic bag laid on top. Welcome to Love
and Murder, Heartbreak to Homicide, your true crime podcast that
tells you stories of relationships that turned deadly, always with
the victim in mind, so you may hear some ranting
and raven on my part. Speaking of my part, my

(01:03):
name is Kai and I invite you to take a seat,
take a listen all the way to the end, and
if you like my retelling, then don't forget to subscribe.
You can also subscribe for free on my Patreon Patreon
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(01:44):
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I do have a story coming out about an interesting
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will only be in the Patreon and will be available

(02:04):
to everyone free and bonus alike Patreon dot com Forward
Slash Love and Murder. Now let's get into today's case.
But first two side notes. First, horrific child abuse is
discussed in this episode Heavy listener discretion is advised. Second.
This case was requested from LAMB listener Janelle Lavender kooy

(02:28):
seventy seventy four. Thank you for your request, Janelle, And
if you have any cases that you want me to retell,
you can actually go to the website Murderanlove dot com
and just choose the option to request the case. It's
in the menu under contact Murderanlove dot com. Now, grab
your butts, grab your delicious glass of apple juice, and

(02:49):
let's get into today's case of love and murder. Initially
believe in it was an older woman, Officer Gordon immediately
called nine to one one. When patrols arrived, they gloorally
searched the freezer and found that inside the freezer, wrapped
in a plastic and bedding with a frozen remains of
two children. Quote. I'm really sickened now to find out

(03:13):
that it was babies. It's not an easy pill to swallow.
The deputies immediately called for homicide detectives. The discovery was
so shocking that officers on scene had to step back
and regroup. One investigator later admitted that it was unlike
anything they have ever seen in their career. Police searched

(03:33):
the apartment and began documenting everything. The freezer was sealed
again and tagged as evidence. The bodies were transported to
the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office for autopsies, and the
scene was treated as a homicide. Neighbors stood outside as
words spread through the apartment complex. No one could believe

(03:54):
what had just been pulled out of the freezer. Neighbor
Tory Childs, who witnessed the scene, said quote, the little
girl had on a pink jacket. The boy was under
a white sheet. It's so tragic. My heart hurts for them.
Some had known Michelee for years. They had seen her
around the complex with her children, but they had no
idea that two of them had been missing. They did

(04:16):
say the last time they'd seen them was about a
year ago. Jessica Porter, who lived next door, said quote,
I can't believe it. It's scary to live next door
to someone you never really knew. It was just a
normal family from the outside looking in. I remember how
many times I was in that house leaning on that freezer.
I had never seen anything out of the ordinary. Detroit

(04:39):
Police Chief James Craig called the case an active homicide investigation.
Assistant Police Chief Stephen Dolant said that the bodies appeared
to have been frozen for some time, possibly more than
a year. When the discovery was made, Michelle was nowhere
inside the apartment, but a neighbor quickly told police where
to find her. She was arrested without incident at another

(05:02):
neighbor's apartment within hours. As she was handcuffed, Michelle said quote,
it was just an evil act. She confessed to the
murders during police questioning. The Wayne County Medical Examiner's office
couldn't immediately perform autopsies as the bodies were completely frozen.
Spokesman Ryan Bridges said, quote. The bodies are still frozen,

(05:26):
so the autopsies are tentatively scheduled for tomorrow. Autopsies can't
be completed while the bodies are still frozen. We monitor
the thign process while allowing them to thaw naturally so
any potential evidence can be preserved. The bodies had to
thaw for three days before autopsies could be performed. The

(05:46):
Medical Examiner ruled both deaths as homicides and noted that
the bodies had been hidden there for years. The first
body was of thirteen year old Stony Blear, and the
second was nine year old Steam Barry. Stony's cause of
death was multiple blunt force trauma, while Stevens was multiple

(06:07):
blunt trauma with thermal injuries possibly burns. Their remains showed
years of abuse, burns, scars, and broken bones that had
healed over time. Michelle Blair was born in nineteen seventy nine.
By twenty fifteen, she was thirty five years old and
living in a two bedroom apartment at the Martin Luther

(06:28):
King Apartment on Detroit's east Side. Neighbors described her as
standoffish and moody. Some said she could be friendly, but
others said that she had a bad temper. She lived
there with her four children, seventeen year old Gabby, eight
year old Matthew, thirteen year old Stony, and nine year
old Stephen. Stephen Barry was ascribed as quiet and sweet.

(06:51):
He attended school up until the twenty twelve twenty thirteen year,
when suddenly he stopped showing up. School officials tried to
follow up, but Michelle withdrew him, saying that she would
homeschool him. That was the last time anyone outside the
home saw Stephen alive. Stony Blair was thirteen. Teachers remembered
her as bright, but also shy, like Stephen. She stopped

(07:14):
going to school around twenty thirteen. At the time, Michelle
told people she was being homeschooled as well. The two
surviving children, Gabby and Matthew, lived in the apartment the
entire time, knowing that their sibling's body were hidden in
the freezer. Gabby was seventeen when the discovery was made,

(07:35):
and Matthew was just eight. Both children were taken into
protective custody immediately after Michelle's arrest. On the outside, it
looked like a struggling single mother raising her kids in
tough circumstances. On her Facebook page, Michelle wrote, quote loyal
to my babies and wrote what she said, quote there

(07:55):
is no greater blessing than being called a mom. One
neighbor said Michelle quote loved those kids and even superglued
their homeschool and assignments to the walls. Inside the apartment,
the reality was very different. Her children lived in terror.
The apartment was described as quote trashed with garbage and

(08:17):
food tossed about everywhere, and almost unlivable. State. Child Protective
Services had substantial claims of abuse against Michelle twice before,
in September two thousand two and February two thousand and five,
but for some reason, she kept custody of her children.
After the February two thousand and five Child Protective Services complaint,

(08:41):
Quote Blair was referred for services through Family First, CBC
counsel and Services, Eastwood Clinic, Individual Family Counseling, and Psychological
Evaluation and Work First. The fathers of the children were
largely absent. Alexander Dorsey, the father of the oldest girl
and vis victims Stony Blair, owed thirty nine thousand dollars

(09:03):
in back child support and hadn't seen Stony in two years.
Stephen Barry, father to victim Stephen Barry, I guess junior,
owed over ten thousand dollars in child support and had
last seen his children in April twenty twelve. Now, the
reason I said I guess junior is because no report
actually listed him as junior, but his father Stephen Berry,

(09:26):
and he's Stephen Berry, so it could be junior or
the second or just Stephen Barry. But I said junior
just so you could understand the separation. Michelle kept them away,
and when anyone asked where the children were, she always
had some type of excuse. For years, Michelle had subjected
all four of her children to severe abuse, including beatings

(09:47):
with wooden planks, extension cords, and hot irons. The two
surviving children would later tell doctors and counselors they were
abused throughout their childhoods Neighbors occasionally saw the kids outside,
but said Michelle mostly kept them in their apartment. Quote,
they stayed inside with their mom quite a bit. Sometimes.
The only way we knew our neighbors were home by

(10:09):
hearing them through the walls. Rocky Ashford and eighteen year
old neighbors said, quote, I've been staying down here my
whole life, and I never saw them outside to the
point where I thought they actually moved out. Another neighbor,
ten year old e J, reported that he used to
play with Stephen, who he called Stevie, but the boys
suddenly just stopped coming outside. When asked why no one noticed,

(10:33):
the two miss in officials pointed out that once she
told the school that they were being home schooled, no
further checks were made. For years, no one came inside
the home to verify the children's welfare. In August twenty twelve,
Michelle's abuse escalated to murder. She later claims she became

(10:54):
enraged after finding out Stephen was sexually abused in his
younger sibling claim in all actuality that was never substantiated.
For two weeks, she tortured her nine year old son.
She tied a belt around his neck and lifted him
off the ground, asking quote, do you like how this feels?

(11:15):
She forced him to drink wind decks, beat him, threw
scowling water on his genitals, and suffocated him with a
plastic bag until he lost consciousness, only to slap him
awake again. She quote placed him in a boiling hot
tub of water until his feet blistered. She tied him

(11:38):
to the bed and beat him repeatedly with her fists
and with objects around the house for days. She attacked
him in different ways, always accusing him of hurting Matthew.
Stephen cried and begged her to stop. At one point,
he told her quote, I'm sorry, mama, but she kept going, uhhh, sorry,

(12:03):
I'm just trying to get myself together here. On or
about August thirtieth, twenty twelve, Stephen died from his injuries.
Gabby told investigators that when Michelle found him unresponsive, she
wrapped his body in his favorite blanket and placed him
in the deep freezer. Nine months later, in May twenty thirteen,

(12:24):
Michelle turned her rage on her thirteen year old daughter, Stony.
Michelle again claimed it was because Stony had also sexually
abused the younger siblings. In reality, Michelle became enraged when
Stony said she didn't like her two siblings. Maybe it
was sibling rivalry, or maybe they had gotten into a
short sibling argument. Either way, Michelle took this to heart.

(12:48):
For about a week, Michelle starved Stony, given her only
oatmealan water, and beat her in the head with a
two by four. She also forced her to drink hot water.
On May twenty fifth, twenty thirteen, Michelle strangled Stony with
a T shirt and suffocated her with a garbage bag.
She then forced her oldest daughter to help put Stoney's

(13:11):
body in the freezer on top of Steven's Can you
fricking imagine? Ugh? I have so many words to call
this woman, and none of them are even remotely good.
Michelle later admitted that she treated the surviving two children differently.

(13:34):
She claimed she killed Stony and Stephen because they had
hurt Matthew. In court, she said, quote, she not only
raped him, but she gang raped him with Stephen. How
what type of to say about your children? She said
she had to protect him, and once they were dead,
she continued raising Gabby and Matthew as though nothing had happened.

(13:57):
But the reality was that these children grew up in
an iron defined by fear, violence, and lies. The freezer
became the most terrifying part of their home. They admitted
that they were scared to even go near it because
they knew what was inside. Gabby said, quote, I was
afraid to even walk by the freezer. I already knew

(14:17):
that one misstep and this is where I'd end up.
She told counselors that her mother burned her back with
a curling iron, and counselors and counselors noticed that she
had a visible cut above her left eye, which she
said was the result of her mother hitting her with
a plank of wood, and that her front tooth was
chip when her mother hid her in the mouth with

(14:39):
a curling iron, So she was gonna be next The
mother's acting like Anyways, Matthew also had bruises on his
back that were quote caused by his mother. How'd she
telling investigators that she treated these two differently? I mean,
the only difference is that you didn't murder them. Yet.

(15:00):
As the time police opened the freezer on March twenty fourth,
twenty fifteen, Stephen had been dead for nearly three years.
Stony had been dead for almost two. Both bodies were
still inside the apartment the whole time, while Gabby and
Matthew continued to live under their mother's controlled They remembered
being forced to help cover up the murders. Michelle told

(15:21):
them to lie if anyone asked about their brother and sister.
Michelle kept them out of school, cutting them off from
teachers or adults who might notice the abuse. They didn't
have any friends over, and no one came to visit.
Like I said, when relatives asked about the children, Michelle
always had excuses. For instance, Stephen had run away, Stony
was living somewhere else, et cetera, et cetera. The kids

(15:45):
knew these were lies, but they were too scared to
say anything. They were trapped, living with the smell of
the freezer, the beatings and the constant threat of what
might happen if they disobeyed chall protect their services. Records
showed a long history of complaints about the family. Reports
of physical abuse had been filed years earlier, but nothing

(16:06):
ever followed through. CPS had been to the apartment multiple times,
but Stephen and Stony remained in that environment. After Gabby
and Matthewer removed from the home, they were taken to
the hospital for examination. Doctors found them. Doctors found them
covered with welts and scars from repeated beatings. Quote twenty
five scars and injuries on the boy's back, both old

(16:29):
and new as a result of physical abuse by Blair.
Numerous loophole scars and injuries on the boy's body, including
his back, right buttock, and right hip. These injuries are
consistent with Blair using an extension cord to physically abuse them.
The girl has also been beating with a cord and
burned with a clothes and iron, and has burns on

(16:50):
her body. After she was arrested, Michelle was ordered to
undergo psychiatric evaluation by both state and independent doctors. Psychiatry
doctor Shiner, who performed a competency exam, determined Michelle was
fit to stand trial. Quote. She understood the charges, the
roles of the people in the courtroom. She understood the penalty.

(17:11):
She was initially charged with child abuse, but murder charges
were soon added. During court hearings, she shouted in the courtroom,
cursing at judge's attorneys and even the children's fathers. She
made it clear that she hated them all and that
she wasn't going to apologize. At one point, she said
she wished she had killed her youngest child too, because

(17:33):
he was the one who had been abused. At a
custody here in June twenty fifteen, while a video played
of her surviving son describing the abuse, Michelle yelled out
that he didn't quote see me kill Stephen because it
was unintentional. But she also shouted, quote, everybody wants to know, yes,
I did kill her, referring to Stony. The prosecution told

(17:55):
the court what happened to Stephen and Stony. They described
how Michelle had kept Stephen's body in the bedroom closet
for days before finally putting him in the freezer. They
said she did the same to Stony. In May twenty thirteen.
Prosecutors used the autopsy reports and Michelle's own statements to
prove how deliberate the killings were. Also, the state testified

(18:17):
that after she had killed her children, Michelle continued to
receive welfare benefits for them. Of course she did. She
received seven hundred and seventy dollars. She receives seven hundred
and seventy one dollars a month in food assistance and
medicaid through March quote accepting governmental benefits for two deceased children.
This selfishness of this woman. She she abuses her children,

(18:41):
murders them, and then just keeps getting money for them.
And she probably would have done that to all four
and then just sat there and continued getting money for them.
Michelle then gave graphic testimony about her crimes. Speaking matter
of factly about killing Stony, she said, quote, I punched
her put her bag over her head until she lost consciousness.

(19:03):
When asked about Stephen, Michelle admitted that she quote choked
him with a belt, punched him, and burned the boy
with scalding water. This woman doesn't even give a flying flu.
She also said, quote, I don't feel no remorse for
the death of those demons. If I had the chance,
I would kill them again. Oh God. She said that

(19:26):
she did not initially intend to kill Stephen. Yet it
sounds like it sarcasm, by the way, but it is
what it is. She didn't actually say that last part,
but that was basically implied. However, unlike with Stephen, Michelle
admitted that she deliberately intended to kill her daughter. Assistant
Wayne County Prosecutor Karen Goldfarb testified that none of Michelle's

(19:50):
surviving children had been sexually abused. Gabby also said that
there was no concrete evidence for their mother's claims, saying, quote,
my mom became a obsessed with this crazy notion. The
defense didn't really have a case to present, but they
tried anyway. Her attorney didn't try to argue innocence, but
focused on keeping the trials short and avoided drawn out testimony.

(20:14):
Defense attorney Wyatt Harris maintained that his client quote has
taken responsibility for what she did? Where did I miss something? Lambs?
Did I miss something? Where did she take responsibility? She
said she did it, but then she was trying to
blame them for why she did it. So just because
she said she did it doesn't necessarily mean that's taken responsibility.

(20:36):
He continued on, saying that she stood by her story
that she believed her children were sexually abusing a relative. See,
she didn't take responsibility, and you're sitting there, Oh, well,
she took responsibility, your honor. But you know she did
it because she believed the children were sexually abusing a relative.
I mean, I can't honestly believe someone is even defending

(20:57):
her after five years of this. Eyes shouldn't be surprised,
But somehow I still am. Wayne County Circuit Judge Edward
Joseph presided over custody hearings, and in July twenty fifteen,
he terminated Michelle's parental rights. The court also ended Stephen
Barry's parental rights. Michelle had testified claims that she had

(21:19):
quote never prevented the fathers from seeing their children. She
said of Stephen Senior, quote the first time he popped
back up in twenty eleven, he just showed up. Everybody
could be dead and you wouldn't even know it. How
ironic that you say that, ma'am. Quote. We've had testimony
regarding mister Barry that to this day, he remains without housing,

(21:42):
he remains without stable employment. The judge added that there
was no significant bond between the boy and his father,
and that it would take way too long for Stephen
to establish a suitable home for his son. However, Stony
and Gabby's father, Alexander Dorsey, retained his parental rights. The
court's reasonings was strategic. By preserving Alexander's rights, his daughter

(22:07):
would remain a temporary ward of the court, eligible for
services until age twenty, rather than only until nineteen if
those rights were terminated. Neither father stayed in court to
hear Michelle's testimony. Alexander said quote, I've been hearing her
all my life. I ain't gotta hear her no more.
At a separate hearing in June twenty fifteen, Michelle stood

(22:30):
in court and pled guilty to two counts of first
degree murder and one count of torture. She refused to
let her lawyers speak for her and instead reiterated everything
she said in the custody hearing quote, I do not
feel any remorse for what I did to Stony because
she had no remorse for what she did to my son.
She interrupted several times, speaking over the judge and prosecutors,

(22:54):
insisting that she had every right to kill them. Judge
Dana Hathaway told Missa, they lived in terrible fear of you,
and I find that so sad in this case, after
all is said and done, you imposed the death penalty
on your own children. You created a house of horrors
for your four children. Then Michelle told her I did.

(23:19):
Defense attorney Harris told the court that she was quote
abused as a child, had little education, and then had
her own children, to which I say okay. Then he said,
quote I'm not making an excuse, then why bring it up.
If you're not making an excuse, why bring up an excuse?

(23:41):
During sentence in Michelle said, quote if I had killed
Stephen intentionally, I definitely would be proud to say I did.
She also told the court that one time she called
nine one one asking for quote advice for a friend
about what would happen if a sibling was caught sexually
assaultant another child. So is she now trying to blame

(24:02):
the police. She also took this time to try and
blame the kid's father, so everybody accept her. Judge Hathaway
sentenced Michele to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Michelle was let out of the courtroom, still defiant without
a single apology. The case raised serious questions about how

(24:22):
the system had filled them. Child Protective Services had prior
contact with the family, but nothing was done that could
have saved Stephen and Stony. Neighbors admitted they noticed signs
of trouble, children who seemed withdrawn, rumors of harsh discipline,
and the general sense that something was wrong inside that apartment.

(24:43):
Yet the horror inside those walls when undiscovered for years
until the freezer was finally opened. This case, as with
many cases of child abuse, is a reminder of how
abuse can go unnoticed and how children's voices are too
often unheard. The surviving children were left to rebuild their

(25:03):
lives with the weight of what they had seen and endured,
while the system itself was forced to confront its own lapses.
Which is there really going to A spokesman for Michigan
Department of Human Services, Bob Whedon, said, quote, DHS needs
to assess the risk and determine what action is appropriate

(25:25):
when abuses sustained. In the most severe cases, DHS will
petition the court for removal of the children. But you didn't.
In direct response to the Blair case, Michigan State Representative
Stephanie Chang a sponsored litigation requiring homeschool parents to register
with the state Representative. Chang also proposed mandatory in person

(25:49):
contact every six months between homeschooled children and professionals like
doctor or social workers. Quote. The idea is to make
sure there are eyes on the kids a couple times
a year. Alexander claimed that he repeatedly alerted child protective
services about possible abuse, but was ignored. Quote They didn't care,

(26:10):
period because they gave them right back to her. That's
so freaking sad and so freakin' frustrating. In the end,
the names Stephen and Stoney became symbols of both unimaginable
cruelty and the urgent need for stronger protections to ensure

(26:30):
no other children fall through the cracks the way they did.
While Michelle Blair serves her life sentence, racking up dozens
of misconducts in prisons for assaulting prisoners and guards, her
surviving children have shown remarkable resilience. They were placed in
the care of their great aunt, Angela Gordon, a fifty

(26:51):
eight year old retired Detroit police child abuse investigator, and
they received therapy do you realize how sad and ironic
that is. They were this close to a police child
abuse investigator and this is what their mom did to them.
I'm not blaming Angela, by the way. I'm just saying,

(27:12):
can you just imagine they're related to somebody in this
profession and this is what their mom does to them.
This placement provided an immediate sanctuary with a family member
professionally equipped to understand the complex trauma that children had endured.
Court documents later revealed that both children have done well

(27:33):
in the home of their great aunt and uncle. Two
years later, in twenty seventeen, Gabby, then nineteen, graduated from
high school with plans for college, while her ten year
old brother had been adopted around May twenty sixteen and
was thriving in school. Gabby had also enrolled in an
independent living program to prepare for adulthood. They found hope

(27:58):
and a future, finally free from the monster they once
called mom. Gabby said, quote, I'm happy I was able
to make it out alive. Also in twenty seventeen, it
was reported that Michelle had racked up twenty eight misconducts,
with the most recent coming in October of that year.

(28:19):
They include throwing urine on an officer through her food slot,
throwing a milk carton at an officer, and repeatedly spitting
on other prisoners. Quote. She's actually been in solitary since
July nineteenth, twenty fifteen, as of this recording. I'm not
sure if she's cleaned up her act and she's been

(28:40):
placed in general population. Either way, if she doesn't get
therapy and fix herself, I don't think she'll ever feel
remorseful for what she's done. And that's it for today's episode.
What did you think of this case? Let me know
your thoughts in the comment or over in the Patreon.
I always want to hear what you think, and I

(29:03):
know you have a lot to say about this case.
You heard what I had to say about it. I
don't know. I think that woman has some type of
trauma herself or some type of anger issues. Something's wrong
with her and she needs to go get therapy. But
I don't think it was wrong enough with her that
she couldn't have gone to trial, Like when she was

(29:24):
still trying to get no. I need to get a
mental health evaluation to see if I can go to no, no, no No.
She knew exactly what she did, and nothing's wrong with
her that it was it would deem her mentally unfit
for trial. But something's wrong with her in terms of
the level of anger she has and she can't control herself,

(29:44):
like something is wrong with her. But anyways, those are
my comments. I want to hear your comments. And speaking
of your comments, let me read a couple of them
to you. I actually haven't done this in a while now.
These comments that I'm about to read to you come
from a case called DNA Solves Cold case that was
buried for twenty years, the case of Coley McCraney. If

(30:07):
you haven't listened to this case before or you forgot
about it, then the link to listen to it is
in the show notes below. But actually this case was
a bonus episode and you could have gotten it at
the five dollars and above tier. It's always in the Patreon,
so even if you joined today, even if you join tomorrow,
it's going to be there as a back as a
back case, so there's always stuff to listen to in Thepatreon.

(30:30):
Patreon dot com forward Slash Love and Murder, and now
a short synopsis about this case before I get into
the comments. On July thirty first, nineteen ninety nine, two
seventeen year old girls went missing after getting lost on
the way to a party. Their bodies were found in
a trunk of a car the next day, both shot
in the head. For twenty years, the case remained unsolved

(30:54):
until DNA and genetic genealogy led police to the murderer.
Like I said, this is the case of Coley McCraney.
Just go ahead and join the Patreon at five dollars
the above if you want to hear this case. Patreon
dot com forward slash love and murder. So the first
comment comes from someone named sweet Amber and they said

(31:16):
this doesn't sound right to me. Maybe I miss something.
But the only evidence the article listed was DNA on
JB's sweater and bra inside of her. How do they
know this wasn't from consexual sex? The prosecution argued, there
wasn't a planned a meeting between the girls in Kolie,
but how do they know? That teenagers are pretty sneaky.

(31:38):
They may have told the mother they were lost to
cover their asses from missing curfew because JB was meeting
up with a guy. Maybe sounds totally plausible to me.
That sounds exactly like something I probably would do at seventeen,
which just so happens, was the same year these girls
were seventeen. They were also in the South. Racial ten

(32:00):
are far higher today than I remember them being back
in the nineties, but that's not to say they didn't
exist back then. So if JB was meeting up with Coley,
there's a good possibility she would have been secretive about it,
possibly even lied to her parents about where she was
going what she was doing. This can't be right. The
jury only took fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes. That's a man's life,

(32:26):
even if he does, even if he is one hundred
percent guilty, I think his life in freedom deserves more
than fifteen minutes of consideration. Fifteen minutes doesn't even give
them enough time to remember his name, much less go
over all the evidence and facts of the case. Does
this not strike anyone else as? Does this not strike

(32:47):
anyone else as incredibly fishy? Another user replied to sweet Amber,
this user is JB. Well, they said, the retractive story
about the dirty cop also throws considerable reasonable doubt into
this case. Then, Philippe commented, I was born on March second,

(33:08):
nineteen eighty two. These girls were my age. I feel
so sorry for them and for their families. As for
this man, I've had a hard time believing the con
sexual sex theory. Why would girls who were supposed to
be late and got lost have suddenly decided to have
sex with a random stranger if they knew each other before,
basically pointed to sweet Amber's theory. Surely there would be

(33:32):
witnesses as to where they would have met him. They
would have been on phone calls, on landlines, etc. There
was barely any Internet at the time. And if the
two friends were there together, were they planning to both
have sex with this guy? I agree that there's an
alternate universe where the guy had sex with JB while
her friend was watching, and a serial killer swooped in

(33:55):
at just after the guy had left and killed both
of them. And if this this this is what happened,
the guy is the unluckiest guy in the world. But frankly,
it is much more likely that he's a liar, a cheat,
and a murderer. And I'm going to read the last
comment and then I'm going to tell you all what
I think. And in reply to Philippe Caught the Planet said,

(34:17):
making great points. The jury sat through the trial. They
didn't have fifteen minutes to decide. They had the entire
course of the trial to come to what seems an
obvious conclusion. Lwop was too good here. How do you
think the people of his congregation field after being provided
with his guidance? This case is chilling their poor families.

(34:39):
It's a horrific case, and these girls were put through
the worst. I wish things like this didn't happen and
girls could be safe. This was an interesting case. Thank
you very much. You're welcome for giving you the case.
It was very hard for me to go through the case,
as with most of my cases, if not all of them,
is very hard for me to go through it. I

(35:00):
was gonna say what I think about this, but they
basically answered, sweet Amber, which is they didn't take them
fifteen minutes to decide because they had the entirety of
the trial to listen to what was going on and
make a decision. They had just to listen to what's
going on and make a decision. They just made a
decision before they even left the courtroom to go and deliberate.

(35:24):
That's it. Everybody had made their decision basically based on
what they were hearing. And for JB, it was clearly
a blatant lie that he had con sexual sex with
this woman like it was, it was just clear. But
I want y'all to listen to the case. If you're
a Patreon then just click on the link. If you're
not a Patreon, consider joining so you can hear this

(35:46):
episode and give me your thoughts on the case. Do
you agree with the thoughts of these listeners or do
you have anything new to add yourself? Patreon dot com
forward slash Love and Murder, and like I said, this
bonus episode is at the fire dollar Tare or above.
Before you go though quick thanks to my lambs in Patreon.
You're the reason this show keeps going. Our latest Deadly

(36:08):
Duo's bonus episode is live right now at the ten
dollar Taire and above, and it's a wild one. Siblings
who turned on their own brother in a case that's
as shocking as it is heartbreaking. And if you're part
of the five dollar Tare and above, stay tuned. Our
next Patreon only drop is coming soon. Tekehiro Sharaishi, Japan's

(36:32):
Twitter killer, a manipulative predator who used social media to
hunt his victims. It's one of the darkest cases I've
covered yet. And don't forget about the psych Experience Report
that I'll be putting out on Saturday, which will be
available to everyone in our Patreon free end bonus. So
as you can see, there's a lot going on in

(36:52):
the Patreon. If you're not already part of the Lamb fam,
join us at patreon dot com. Before it Slash Love
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and Murder, and like I like to end each full episode,

(37:17):
I want to remind you that it's say it with
me now, all love and no murder. Y'all. Thanks for
listening all the way to the end. Thanks for your support,
and I'll see you in the next episode. Bye,