BONUS EPISODE: FAILURE! director Alex Kuhuam

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
There are some questions I'd like to ask you.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Low Budget Rebels past.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
I don't tell me you're taking all this seriously. Hello everybody,
and welcome to the Low Budget Rebels podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm your host, Josh Stifter, and this is.

Speaker 4 (00:39):
A bonus episode in its own way kind of. So
here's the thing. This show is having a total revamp
and I'm super excited, and I talk about a little
bit in the episode itself, but what is happening is
I am going to be recording a whole bunch of
episodes with different filmmakers on very specific topics, and I
that each of the filmmakers talk for ten minutes or

(01:01):
so about or as long as they need to talk
about that specific subject. So, whether that's editing, or writing,
pre production, budgeting, scheduling, working with cast, whatever the topic is,
they're gonna talk about it. And then I'm gonna cut
it together into like one episode where you get different
viewpoints from different filmmakers and different people in the industry.

(01:21):
If I do an episode on editing, I may talk
to editors along with directors and figure out or discuss
the topic from multiple perspectives, and that's sort of what
the point of this podcast always was. But I feel
like when I talk to a singular filmmaker, it becomes
just about that filmmaker, not about the topic. And I
would love to bring filmmakers I've had in the past

(01:43):
back and talk to them about these subjects, because that's
really why we're here, is to learn and to grow
as artists and to talk about the thing that we love,
which is filmmaking. And so with that being said, that's
what the show is going to become. But I also
think that there are some nuances in the full conversation

(02:05):
that maybe won't.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Necessarily be there.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
And I know a lot of these filmmakers want to
talk about their movie specifically, and they want to tell
stories about being on set, and sometimes that can get
lost in the conversation and not fall into a specific topic.
So in order to get that as well, to get
the fireside chat between me and these filmmakers I wanted to,
I want to release those as well, and so in

(02:31):
order to do that, I'm going to be posting those
exclusively on Patreon, So the full conversations will be on Patreon,
but the actual episodes of Low Budget Rebels discussing these
topics will be on the feed free for everyone Low
Budget Rebels. So with that being said, I had my
first conversation and it is with a filmmaker, Alex Kwam,

(02:52):
who's been on the podcast before, an amazing filmmaker. He
did a movie called Forgiveness. He did a film call
All the Failure that just came out recently and I
watched and you'll hear about a lot on this podcast
because that's mostly what we talk about is failure. It's
a single take movie starring Ted Raimi. It is fantastic
and Alex came on to discuss this movie, and I thought,

(03:16):
because the movie is fresh, why not post this episode
bonus for everyone so you can see what the patrons
are going to get. And it's gonna be a while
before the actual show starts back up. Low Budget Rebels
will be won't be coming out for probably maybe in April.
That's when I'll start it back up because I need

(03:36):
to do these conversations. I need to talk to the filmmakers.
But as I finished the actual conversations I'm going to
post the full conversation on the Patreon. So if you
want to listen to the full conversation. You don't want
the low budget rebels, this new version of it. You
want the old school full conversation. Go over to patreon
dot com slash Flush Studios and subscribe for one dollar

(03:56):
a month, five dollars a month, ten month, dollars a month,
whatever you can get.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
That is.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
You just need to be a subscriber and you will
get those full conversations, and you'll also be helping me
make my movies. As I go into production on Get
That Dick, my new movie, and we're still in pre
production figuring out budget and trying to get funding for
Garage Rot and Absess and all these other projects. And

(04:22):
I'm also putting out the comics. There's all of these
things happening. There's so much that has all come to fruition.
The comics are done, there are some that just need
to I literally need the funds to print, and without
the patrons, I don't have the funds.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
I'm not rolling in the dough here, folks.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
I am just a struggling artist try to get this
stuff out there. Basically, so patreon dot com slash Flush
Studios is how you support what I'm doing in order
to get this art out to the people. But I'm
very excited about Get that Dick, and we're going into
production in the end of May and through June, once

(05:01):
Max is out of school. Max my son is the
star of the movie essentially, and he we decided to
wait until the summer when he's out of school. That
would be the perfect time to actually go into production
on it, and so we're waiting till man June. Plus
I'm gonna be in Germany. I've got to be in
I have a full time job that kind of sends
me around the world and that a lot of that

(05:22):
travel time is coming up in the near future. So
I'm hoping to get these episodes recorded so that i
can cut them while I'm traveling and get all of
this done, and then the show will start coming out
and all of this will start being posted, and Low
Budget Rebels will be back, and I'm very excited because
it has been a long break without Low rud Budget Rebels.
It's crazy how inspiring the show is for me. It

(05:42):
makes me motivated, it makes me want to go make movies.
Talking about movies makes me want to make movies, believe
it or not. That's community, man, That's the biggest part
of finding inspiration is finding community talking about these things
and moving forward. I highly reckon men that for any
indie filmmakers out there, go fucking join a forty eight

(06:04):
hour film fest or like Sean and I did this
cinema challenge Sin Sin I'm a challenge and that was
the nine like ninety percent of the inspiration and fifty
percent maybe yeah, fifty percent of the casting choices we've
made have been based on doing that challenge or crew

(06:24):
and cast choices have been made based on doing that challenge.
That has let Sean Ashley and I my he's sort
of my producer cohort on Get That Dick and star
of the movie he has in that project that we
did was incredibly motivating and gave us so many ideas
and introduced us to so many people. And I'm very

(06:46):
excited about that. I mean, if you want to follow
along with Get That Dick as we go into production again,
Patron dot com, slash Flush Studios, truly like that is
the place to follow me. I have cut out social media.
I'm hosting far less regularly. I am trying to disconnect
from that world and move over to my own community.
I want to have my own community of people, so

(07:07):
the Discord. I'm going to be posting a much more
on the discord in March, like that's my move, is
to hop on the discord, discuss movies, post art, chat
with folks about what we're doing and what they're doing.
So if you're a filmmaker and you want to promote
your stuff, head over to the Flush Studios Discord. There
is a link on my Patreon and there's links all

(07:30):
over the place, so or if you don't know, just
shoot a comment to me, send me a comment on
the Patreon, or send me a comment on this post
and I will I'll try to link you toward to
the discord so you can join the conversation. All right,
without further ado, This was a fantastic conversation. I love
it when I get to talk to my friends, and
Alex has been a good friend since we met at

(07:51):
fright Fest back in Jesus twenty twenty one. And it's
to me like it's a joy to sit down with
people who I consider friends and filmmakers who I consider
who I've watched grow. Honestly, like Alex is, he's upped
his game. He's really doing some special stuff. And if

(08:13):
you have the opportunity to check out Failure, you should.
It is inspiring, low budget filmmaking done at its finest.
And when you hear the tricks he used, listen to
this and then go watch the movie, and I guarantee
you will be looking for microphones on the set. I'm
gonna watch it again. I've already watched it twice and
I'm stoked to watch it again just to look for

(08:33):
those little things. So, without further ado, here is my
conversation with Alex Kuom.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Hey, Alex, how have you been man?

Speaker 3 (08:46):
Hey? Man, great, it's been a bit since we last talked.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, it's been a while. You've been busy as.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Hell, Yeah, man, rapping and like post production and you know, filmmaking.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, like tons of filmmaking. There has been I mean
since we talked.

Speaker 4 (09:03):
I think I can't remember exactly when we last talked,
but I think you were just in were you you
were in pre production on Failure or maybe you had
just wrapped production on Failure and we're going into post.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, I think we wrapped failure and we were doing
post production at the time. Yeah, it was like two
years ago, I think, and.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
You were super excited about the movie, and but you
couldn't say very much. It was all very hush hush.
Now you can the movie's out there, you've seen it.
Now we can actually talk about it.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Thank god, it's out there. We can talk about it.
We can everything. Not spoilers though, but yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
I purchased the movie and I watched it.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
I've actually watched it twice now and it's it's very enjoyable.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
I appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
A very different movie from what you have made in
the past. What was it like going into something How
was it fun working on a project like that?

Speaker 3 (10:07):
Oh? Yeah, man, it was. It was a blast. It
was really fun. And it's funny because we met when
I did Forgiveness, which is a you know, super bizar movie,
and this one is more like a narrative, you know,
one day thing. But yeah, it was great. It was
worth to work with Ted ted Raimi, and it was
just a great challenge to shoot a wanted because there's

(10:28):
no cuts. I mean you saw it, There's not a
single cut. So yeah, it was eighty seven minutes that
the camera was on, moving the camera in the house,
and yeah, it was a blast an expiment.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
Yeah, And the intro to this, I'll talk about how
this is kind of a bonus episode or whatever, and
we're changing the format of this podcast, so we'll dive
into some of these questions the specifics of this. And
one of one of the questions I had is, you know,
literally about finding a performance, finding the performances when you're
doing a one take shot shoot. But this I want

(11:02):
to talk more before we get into those questions about like.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
You have done You've done.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
Multiple single take movies with long single takes, and this
one is an incredibly long take with a lot of
nuanced performances and little things. What was it like just
setting like thinking about this project. What made you go like,
I want to do another one take movie or do
a one take movie.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
You know, it's interesting because yes, you know, with Forgiveness,
it's only it's nine shots throughout the film, it's eleven
minutes each and then Redline it's like a ten minute short,
the same thing. And for this one, I was like,
you know what, let's just go with it with the
one take. You know, we can do it is the
same thing, it's just longer. And then Ted was like,

(11:50):
when I pitched him the idea, I was like, you're crazy,
Like you got a caught man. Why are you talking
with I'm like, no, like Hitchcock, you know, on the rope,
but like, we're not gonna cat you know, back in
they didn't have the technology to you know, continue shooting.
Now we have so we can do it. So it
was very hard for him as an actor as a
performer to be like, Okay, I have to like carry

(12:11):
the you know, the film for maybe seven minutes. But
I was like, dude, like you're grade, you're an excellent actor.
You have a lot of training, so you should be fine.
And then yeah, he he was like okay, oh, let's
do it. Let's see what happens. And when you're talking
about rehearsals and you know, the performances, it's all about,
like I said, the rehearsal, and it's all about, like

(12:33):
you gotta improvise while you're shooting because it's just the
nature of it, like it's not going to be entirely
what you wrote, but you got to trust the cast
and also the crew, right, Like the camera is also
a character, so you gotta leave the camera to follow
them and communicate with the camera operator, which is very
important as well. But yeah, man, it's like a dance.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
Well, it will dive more into that later. I think
what the first thing I want with the getting the
performances and whatnot and figuring out how you're gonna do
that dance like in rehearsal and whatever.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
But before we.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
Get to that, when we were at fright Fest, we
were hanging out, drinking bullshit and having a good old
time together. I remember you got like a couple of
phone calls from Ted and you were like in the
in the beginning stages of trying to put this together.
So with a movie like this, and we could talk

(13:28):
about my first we'll get to my first question in
a second, but with I'm just curious with the project
like this, were you sort of building it around, you know,
having Ted available, having trying to make something that you
knew you weren't going to have a long shoot with
Ted because he's obviously a busy dude. You weren't gonna

(13:50):
get a whole bunch of days to film. Was the
writing process? Did that did that like sort of inspire
the writing process?

Speaker 3 (13:58):
Of course absolutely. You know, Ted became a friend throughout
the years because we've been working for six six years now,
and yeah, absolutely, Like he's busy doing shows, he's shooting
up you know, video games as well, like The Quarry.
At the time, I think, so yeah, it's it's it
was like, hey, man, I only have a week for
you know, whatever we want to do, and it's like, okay,

(14:20):
let's do it. Let's just you know, he read the script,
he liked it. Of course, he had loans about it,
about the character and stuff, and while we were shooting
the film also he was like, hey, my character would
do this or that, and I'm very flexible. So yes,
it inspired me to have someone like Ted who was
on board from the beginning. And when we were at Freedfesta,
that was the beginning of the conversation. It was just like, hey,

(14:41):
it's like a thought, you know, and it was like, okay, Alex,
let's talk about it when you have a script.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
So then with this you literally said that.

Speaker 4 (14:49):
I remember in the call you had it was our
second but last day we were sitting at the bar.
I think I can't remember if both of our movies
had played at that point or maybe it was right
before Raywood's plot played and we were just having we
were just sitting there together. I was probably nervous as
shit and you're like I have to take this call
from Ted and walked away, and you're like, he wants
me to get him a script and I don't have

(15:09):
a script yet. I just remember being like, now's the time, man,
Now write it.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, you've got to go ahead.

Speaker 4 (15:15):
You've got someone giving you that like pad on the
shoulder to do it, so like go go get it.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
No, it was it was funny man, because we're having
beers and drinks and it was fun and then like hey, man,
like yeah, let's do it. So it was like literally
we went back from Frankfist and I started writing the script,
you know, after the I don't know, all these days
of drinking and hungovers. I was like, okay, I gotta
recover myself and then write the script. And yeah, I

(15:43):
mean it was phenomenal. It was great. But yeah, it
was cool because you were part of it.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
It's so funny, like looking back, because it is I'm
just getting back from a vacation in Belize after three
weeks of like serious hell before. So it was like
working my ass off. I mean, we tried to this
podcast like a couple of weeks ago. It took me
like a week and a half just to watch Failure
after I bought it because I was just so busy.
And I finally I went to Belize and I had

(16:11):
this break from all the hard work, and I was like,
you know what, It's funny the moments when you when
you get inspired, cause it can be like the most
relaxed you think, like you go on this relaxing vacation
and you break and you come back and you're like,
all right now I'm ready to write.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
And that's totally true. I feel it right now.

Speaker 4 (16:29):
I got back from my trip and I'm like, oh
my god, I got so many ideas. I feel reinvigorated,
like I'm ready to go. But coming back from Fryfest,
it was the same thing where I was just like
ready to get filming something, even though it was a
week of insanity.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, I mean that that festival is awesome. I love it,
But yeah, you have to mentalize yourself that you're gonna
be like, you know, drinking, and I mean it's great,
it's a great time.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
You're gonna be.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
Leaving the you're gonna be leaving some like club at
three in the morning and eating a burger.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
On the side.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
Remember there one day we got like pres there's some
shit we're just laying on this side of the road
like drug dorgs.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
Oh, I love it. What a great time. Okay.

Speaker 4 (17:08):
So I'm like I said, I'm breaking the show down
now into these questions. So this that that intro is
only on the bonus episode. That's only for my patrons
when I do these podcasts. So if you want to
if you want to hear my full conversation with the filmmakers,
subscribe to Patreon dot com slash Flow Studios. But now's
where we get to bust into like the questions that

(17:28):
I want to ask you specifically about topics. So our
first one is about finding stories and what genre speaks
to you. And I thought that this would be a
great topic for you because you have multiple genres you've
worked and now, yeah, there's horror elements to all of
your stuff, but then there's also this like one of
them is a very psychological like dark it's like a

(17:51):
metaphorical look into the mind and hell and.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
All sorts of shit.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
Whatever you want to take from it as an audience member,
whereas Failure, like I found myself laughing a lot, especially
on the second watch when I sort of had more
of a concept of what was going to happen next.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
It made me sort of chuckle at like, oh, you're
in for some shit or whatever. So what what? How
do you find the genre and story that speaks to you?

Speaker 3 (18:17):
You know, it's interesting because it's the way I feel
right Like with Forgiveness, I was angry, I was there
was a lot of emotions, you know, and I think
you can tell on the film is definitely and confusion.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
I think when I watched when I watched that movie,
I feel like Forgiveness is this movie that feels like
I don't know exactly where I'm going, and the camera
speaks to that too, where it's just like that whole
movie you're always lost, and you as an audience member
are like, oh my god, we are so lost right now.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, that definitely shows absolutely.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
And then with Failure, it was a combination of like, okay,
we're living in a you know, the the COVID time.
It was after COVID times and a lot of business
they went bankrupt, and you know, like we saw lot
of financial struggles. So it was like, you know what,
I want to talk something like about that, but also
you know, to have like a joke and black comedy
aspect of it with murder and stuff. And it just

(19:12):
became a thing where I'm like, okay, I want to
I want to. You know, it's not gonna be like
a horror film. It had like elements like you were saying,
like Thrie learned stuff, but it's more like a dark
comedy with like you know, crime drama kind of thing,
and and it's it all for me, it's how I feel. Right.
For example, the remedy which is coming up next, it's
very it's like it's like Forgiveness but commercial. Like now

(19:36):
there's like a narrative, there's dialogue. I have two hundred
and eighteen scenes cutting together like it's it's a commercial
version if you want to call it, but differently. So yeah,
to me, I find genres how I feel, how I
feel that it's what I want to say. You know
that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
So here this is a really interesting topic that you
just brought up because you brought up the commercial element
of films, because Forgiveness is a completely not commercial movie.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (20:02):
To death, but it is a hard sell, whereas Failure
is far more commercial, it's far more like, it's easier
to digest, even though it's still had a lot of
I mean, I assume the remedy is gonna be the same.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
You don't.

Speaker 4 (20:14):
I don't think you are the kind of person who
can't give us a little look into the insanity happening
in your head, you know what I mean? Like, I
feel like as I watched Failure, there was moments where
I'm like, I don't know what's real and what's not
and what we're supposed to be connecting to exactly.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
And I like that. But it's a very you thing
to do.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
And I remember when we got out of Greywood's plot,
you were like, yeah, it's it's super indie, it's super
low budget, but it's you have a commercial movie in you.
Like you You said that multiple times, Like you can
sell a movie. I can see what you're doing. When
you're writing something like Failure or the Remedy, do you
specifically think about who your audience is, how it can
be sold commercially, what you can do with it.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
So for those two movies, No, for those two movies,
I was like you know what, this is what I
want to do. It's a work of art. I know
that Failer is more commercial, yes, and I know that
you know there's a lot of dialogue, so it's the opposite, right,
So I know it will find its audience. But I
was not thinking about like, oh, you know, like I'm
thinking all the commercial approach now as you know the remedy.

(21:20):
It's a complete different story because now I'm changing the
way I'm doing movies because it's very frustrating. As you
were telling me, the distribution. You want your movie out there,
you know, it's as much.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
We have access to it, so we know who the
distributors are. We know who we have potential to get
it to to sell. So it makes a very different
writing process when you are going like can I hit
A twenty four with this movie? Can I hit this
other studio with the movie? Like you very much think
about who would be interested?

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah. Now you know it's like now I'm thirty two,
Like now, I mean I'm still insane, I think, but
but but more.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Control controlled insanity. I love that.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah, because now I'm thinking about like distribution and like
the audiences and yeah, the remedies, like once you know,
the film is ready, I'll show it to you. But
it's it's like I said, it's the most commercial, but
also it's abstract and also now it has horror elements
in it. But yeah, it's you got to you gotta
think about it, you know, distribution.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well specifically speaking to genre.

Speaker 4 (22:26):
Then when you're writing a screenplayer or you're trying to
figure out what your next project is going to be,
do you think in genre? Do you go like, because
I would never call Failure a horror, I don't know,
Like I'm it is a It's a dark comedy thriller
to me, And I'm curious, like figuring out what genre

(22:46):
you want to play in? Is that something that you
think of off the top, because I do, especially post
gray Wood's plot, because.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
That movie was such a hodgepodge of.

Speaker 4 (22:54):
Like comedy and horror and weird psychological shit. I just
was like, when I write the next I want to
know what genre I want to tell them, like straight up,
when I go to someone when I'm looking for funding,
I want to be like action comedy done. Here's the
elevator pitch, because I just learned that that is the
cell is to have something like done or if it's
a horror, I can go like, this is a horror.

(23:14):
There are twenty horror moments in this movie, and I
can tell you every single one of them.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Do you think that way?

Speaker 4 (23:20):
Or with Failure where you very much like and the
Remedy for that matter, where you're like, I'm just gonna
fucking write this thing.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
So with Failure, no, I was like, fuck it, I'm
just gonna write this thing. And I annually had elements
of you know, thriller and comedy and stuff. But with
the Remedy, yes, with the Remedy, it was envisioned as
a horror film. Yeah, I mean we have an entity,
we have a lot of stuff. So yeah, that's a
horror film for sure. But now from you know, after

(23:45):
shooting the Remedy and well shooting the Remedy, I'm like,
you know what, I'm really tired of battling distribution in
my movies. So yes, I have to have like more
of a okay, control yourself, you know, we need to
have now, you know, big distribution. Like look, the Failure
had distribution, which is great. I love it. But what

(24:06):
I mean is like I don't want to have another
distributor or buyer saying like, oh no, it's a one take,
you know, because a lot of you know buyers and
distributors after COVID, they're very, very like conservative of what
they want to buy. So I know them as you
know them as well, and it's like it's great to
hear their feedback and say, Okay, okay, this is what

(24:27):
you want, this is what you're looking for, and all
the companies is what they're looking for, and this is
my art and this is what I want to do.
So if you can mix them together, you can have
a great piece, you know. But on my twenties, man,
I didn't care. I was like, you know again, I'm
thirty two. Now changes the world when you turn thirty.

(24:48):
I mean it sounds like a clusha but it does.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
No, totally does.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
So it's like, okay, I gotta be more you know, control,
if that makes any sense. But still I'm doing what
i want, you know.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
So with with with remedy as you knew you were
writing a horror in the writing process where you very
specific about saying like I need to get scares here,
I need to get horror here. I need to be
because for me, the problem becomes like I get bored.
As I'm writing, I'm like, okay, I got like two scares.
Now I want to do some funny shit, and now

(25:21):
I want to, like I get off the rails. It's
really hard for me to stick to a genre as
I'm writing.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yes, No, the rule with the remedy was that, you know,
we gotta feel Friedman, and we got to have like
jump scares, and we have also we have to have
this thought of like what's going on and what's happening,
just like forgiveness. But like I said, that's why it's
more commercial because it's but now we know what's happening,
but there's also confusion. So yeah, I mean writing that
screat with Daniel, it was like, okay, we got to

(25:50):
have every five or ten minutes something. We gotta have
a beat, the beat, and visually on set, I'm gonna
do it because I know what, you know, the stuff
that I want to shoot and how I want to
shoot it. We have this this guy right here, this
goat which is creepy. So there's a lot of elements
that the house that we shot is awesome, insane, creepy.

(26:10):
So we knew that we had a great location, right,
so we can get advantage of it. But yeah, when
you're writing horror, you have to be like okay, every
like five ten minutes so the audience doesn't get bored.
As you were saying, like you're writing and you're like,
oh my god, I gotta put like comedy or something.
So it does have a little a little bit of
like comedy, but not much. It's more so like to
break the you know, it's it's.

Speaker 4 (26:31):
Yeah, sure, sure of course, but like the general vibe
of it is going to be very horror versus you know,
I feel like failure. I really one of the things
I really appreciate it was that you had this like
tightrope of and I think maybe it's something that you
found a little bit in maybe while you were like,
you know, doing the rehearsals and stuff. But there are

(26:54):
these subtle, like funny beats that people give off where
you're it's not necessarily even in the right the line
could be delivered very serious, but there's something just kind
of comically off about it. Was that something you were
consciously thinking when you were figuring out your genre or
your story, like I want to do something kind of
funny but also kind of dark, but also kind of

(27:16):
like really dramatic in its own way.

Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah. Absolutely, like that was the main aim. That was
the main goal. And you know, I was you know,
I love the Coen Brothers as well. I love them,
and when you watch a movie or read the script,
I mean you're laughing, right, it's like this is like,
you know, it's funny, awkward, and I wanted something like that.
I wanted something that the audience would be watching and
be like, oh my god, you know, like it's it's ridiculous,

(27:41):
or like what's happening, or you know, like Ted when
Teddy's pulling the you know, the guy who he just
beat down, it's just funny, you know, and he's actually
pulling the actor, which he's a he's not a light dude.
It's a little heavy on my friend John. So it's funny.
So yeah, I wanted those moments and Ted, I mean,
he'd be wonderful because there's some lines that he came

(28:03):
up with, like right there on say it that I'm like,
this is great, beautiful, So don't stick to the script.
That's that's great. So yeah, to answer your question, I
did really wanted that black comedy aspect in it. One percent.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 4 (28:18):
I mean, I will say like, as much as this
is the kind of movie where you could be like,
the writing has to be incredibly tight, one of the
things I liked about it was it didn't feel like
a stage play. It felt like the story and subject
matter was something that you allowed everyone to play in,
and not that it felt like it was improv either.

(28:41):
It felt very especially like you know, at first, you're
sort of going, like, what, how do we move on
to the next moment, because mentally we're so prepared to cut,
like we're just waiting for cuts all the time, and
when that doesn't happen, you're like, Okay, when do I
get to disconnect from this character for a seton and
you don't, which is incredibly challenging for It can be

(29:04):
incredibly challenging for audience, but for me, I found myself
forgetting like very quickly.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
That's awesome, man, because that was the main goal. The
main goal is like it's a one take, but you
should be just on the story and not thinking of like, oh,
it's a one take. And I feel like it's been
working out because I've been you know, hearing the audiences
and in festivals and people like they they came up
to me and it's like, this doesn't feel like a
long take. It's just I was in the story and
I was wondering what's going to happen next, and what's

(29:32):
going to happen next, And that's the beauty of it.
I feel I feel like I we all feel very
proud of it because I feel like that's what happens
with the film, Like you're constantly wondering what's going to
happen and you're there, you know. And that was the
main objective, the main idea of creating a one take film.
It was that for you not to feel like it
was like a stage play or like a one take

(29:53):
you know.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Okay, that's perfect for my first question. That's a perfect
amount of time that was. That was my first experiment
in seeing how this would work. And it worked great.
I think we answered the first question great. I'm going
to jump ahead to the fourth question because you started
talking about, you know, this one take movie and figuring
it out so free.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Uh. The fourth question I have or the fourth episode.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
I have you and mind for is planning a shot
and how to get a shot. Now this you know,
for every director that's going to be different. For me,
I have very specific like framing that I want, but
I want the camera to cut at the right time.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I'm very like rhythmic cutting.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
I love an edit that just moves at an interesting pace.
That's my being.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Raised on Robert Rodriguez. I love fast cutting and weird
cutting and all that stuff. But for you, obviously, that's
very different for something like failure.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
So what is the.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
Process for blocking a long take like this? How do
you go about doing it?

Speaker 3 (30:53):
So the way I've been, like, you know, working for
the last ten years with shorts and Forgiveness and now Failure,
which was an eighty seven minute long take, is that
I do floor plans myself. I like to go to location,
start a location, shoot it with my iPhone, so I
know the whole thing entire.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
That advice right there is the goal. That's every movie
I've had. But the key thing is shooting it with
my iPhone, going home and looking at it and being like, oh, yeah,
I see it now.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yeah, absolutely, because you have to study your your space
right and where you're going to move your actors, your
camera and see how big is it? Like the challenge
is so you gotta I know it. You know that
might sounds like, oh, that's not directing. Yes it is,
because you have to really make sure everybody will be
able to do what you want. So I do the

(31:44):
floor plans. Then I go to a location I don't know,
like thirty times, like I went to that house man,
like so many times I shot Sothy.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
To find that house or like not find it.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
But what what made you choose that specific location? Was
there a reason that you were drawn to that and
were you you say you went to like thirty times?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
What gave you the.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Access to it that much? So basically, like that house,
one of the producers of the film has shot there before.
They did a commercial or a music video I don't remember.
So he became friends with the owner and I was like, hey, like,
I mean I saw it. I love it. We were
planning at the time, like three years ago to do
one another project, so I've seen it previously so and

(32:26):
I love it. So I was like, hey, we don't
end up shooting this concept, I want to shoot here
one day. So that concept fell apart, but with failure
was perfect because I remember the location and I was like,
I want to shoot there, and I knew they were
friends because they've been like now shooting other projects and whatnot.
So then the guy was awesome guy. The owner. Of

(32:46):
course we rented out, we pay for it everything. But
since he was a friend and he's an old guy,
a very chill guy, he was like, Alex, come whenever
you want, like you know, just let me know. I'm fine.
So yeah, he was very chill. She was cool. And
I was like, hey, man, I only need like ten
minutes every time I go in there, or like, you know,
once I should the whole thing, then yes, I need

(33:08):
like an hour and a half, but I just need
like ten twenty minutes. So he was very chill. It
was more like more so to start the spaces and everything,
and it came out great. I mean, the guy was alsome.
He let me like, do my prep. I love production.
Production for me is my best friend. A lot of
the directors, I hate it, but I love it. I
love it. The best you're prepared, the better. So yeah,

(33:31):
that's how I you know, I prep for long takes
and then when the actors arrive, then I like to
do a whole blocking entirely the whole thing to shoot it.
And it's fine if it's sloppy, it's fine. If it's
not perfect, it doesn't matter. What it matters is like, Okay,
you're gonna be here, Okay, you're gonna move there. Okay, great,
so I can see it, I can review it. Then

(33:53):
I can tell a DP and the camera operator because
those two are very important for me all the time.
So then okay, this is the idea, Okay, the movement,
and then we're gonna change it because it's a dance, right,
We're gonna be constantly evolving and changing and doing also
with rehearsals, right because the actors they want to they
don't feel it right, they don't feel this certain. I
don't know. Hey, can I do this differently? Yes you can,

(34:15):
Yes you can. I mean I'm very open mind. Especially
in a long take.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
You have to you have to be yeah, there's no
way because you don't have that control.

Speaker 4 (34:21):
You have the control to be like no, we got
to do it again from the top, and I need
you to say it like this. You got to be like,
you got to be comfortable. You got to be this
person in this moment. And I can't tell you what
that person is as it's happening.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
So you got to go correct, and you know, it's
it's very interesting because it's a mix of TV. It's
like directing TV and a theater and film because I have,
you know, I'm wireless right with the camera up, you know,
with the DP, so I'm telling the camera up like, hey,
move to the right, move to the left. So so I'm
giving him directions also my DP, but also I'm telling,

(34:54):
you know, to my AD who is following the camera
behind the camera guy, Hey, tell Ted please to move here,
you know, so Hey, Ted, move here. So I'm literally
guiding and directing Ted live, you know, while we're shooting.
So it's kind of like okay, like like TV or
like like theater, but on film. So it was fascinating

(35:14):
the process because you're not only like doing like like
directing a film. It's like it's live and there's no
cats and the audience is, you know, we're watching it,
so we're the audience. So it was well for me.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
The one of the things, especially in the second viewing,
that I noticed was how cinematic it still felt. And
I think part of that is one that the set
design was done in a way that felt like a real,
lived in place. It didn't feel like a stage show
where you know, everything's got to be overly exaggerated or minimalist.
It felt very full, It felt like a real room,

(35:51):
but it didn't feel like TV in that way of
where it went for you know, like the Friends set
where you're just like, Okay, this is like a ton
of weird colors and I things that would never be
in this world, like this just doesn't make any sense
in reality. There was like a realness to it that
felt cinematic. How much of that was there, how much
it was set deck, and how did you like sort

(36:12):
of block your shot around what you had access to.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
So I would say there was a lot of stuff
in the house. We brought more stuff to the house
as well, so it was like a sixty forty or
fifty to fifty you want to call it, And yeah,
we have to take out stuff furniture because you know,
the owner has a lot of stuff, so we needed
to get you know, a lot of stuff out of
it so we could move properly. And like you know,

(36:36):
because you know, you were following tied throughout the whole house,
literally throughout the whole house, so they need to have space.
And the owner was really cool there was no limitation,
so we were able to get rid of furniture and
bring our own furniture or bring our own stuff. So yeah,
I mean the main thing was, like you were saying,
not to feel like friends, like it feels cinematic, it

(36:57):
films like a film. It doesn't feel like that. So
we were able to like work with the art department
in a great, you know way where hey, guys, like
the vision is like we're gonna we're gonna see everything,
and this is the house of this guy for many,
you know years, and this is like his dad's house
as well, so it has to feel old as well,
which is you know, it's an old house.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
So no, it totally feels like that. That's what I love.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
As he starts to talk about his dad, you just
go like, oh, this is some inherited bullshit that this
guy's getting, Like he doesn't he hasn't really earned it necessarily.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
There's this very strange and that adds to the drama
of like, well, what's he gonna do?

Speaker 4 (37:32):
Because you not to spoil things, but it definitely builds
into this like where is it gonna go?

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yep, absolutely, and that's what I wanted, and that's why
it was very important. The house. It was very important
because also like you know, that owner and that house.
I like it. I think it has very good taste
in terms of like the way it's built and there's
a lot of wood, and I mean I love it.
He has a great taste, and I wanted something like that. Like,

(37:57):
you know, you as an audience, also you're not thinking like,
oh my god, it's a one little house kind of
thing like I wanted to have like a visual you know, Okay,
you're in the one take aspect, but also like the
house is nice. You know, it's like you're not you
don't feel like, ah, what is this house? Like you
were saying like not over the top, but not like
you know, like there were stuff missing, you know in it.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
What were the conversations you had to get this kind
of plays into that, like what the house looked like
and what was happening. But with your DP, with your
camera operator, with the people who are actually physically getting
the shots. You know, like I storyboard everything, whether it's
a stick figure on set where I'm just like okay,
I need this simple thing whatever. You're obviously not able

(38:42):
to know exactly where that camera is going. To end
up at any point, So what what was your process
of making sure they were getting what you wanted?

Speaker 2 (38:50):
And then how in advance did.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
You explain what the tone of this movie was going
to be visually as far as like, you know, they
could just have randomly wound up in a dust where
you're like.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Whoa, that's way too.

Speaker 4 (39:02):
Fucking out there. I'm out of the movie now, or
they could have ended up in you know, incredible wides
where we're seeing what we should not be seeing. What
was the conversation.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, man, that's a great question, because, first of all,
like I always work with two vps, like that's you know,
they're like my two guys, and these guys were busy,
like they couldn't do it. So that added to the
tension of like, oh my god, I need someone that
really knows me because it's a one take Like yeah,
so I have a new VP and a new camera creator.

(39:33):
It's the first time I work with them, So that
adds to the tension of also the one take aspect,
and I'm like, guys, look like it's very basic, Like
I show them like the shorts I've done and the
forgiveness and the films I've done, and I'm like the
really simple like we got to you know, follow the
actors and it's fine, We're gonna have crazy moments with
the camera. I mean, it's the nature. It's you know,

(39:55):
we can't do anything about it. And steadicam doesn't fit
in the house, so we can't have steady and we're
not going to be switching with Dolly and we're gonna
do easy rike because that's a great technique for this
specific film. And if you notice, there's a closet and
he's very tight that closet. Yeah, like the camera creator,
his name is June. It's an American Chinese guy. He's

(40:17):
super small and at the beginning, I was like, how
the hell he's gonna do eighty seven minutes? Like how
like I didn't picture it, But he proved me wrong.
He was awesome. He was like a ninja dude, Like
I don't know how he got in the closet, like
I have to Like, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
There's that one specific shot.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
Where you're just like wow, we're like literally in a
corner of this room right now, and this incredibly dramatic
shot that is very powerful and it's where of the
camera had you had you been able to direct it
in cuts, you would have put the camera there anyway. Yeah,
Like there are moments where I'm just like, this is
where he wanted the camera. This is exactly where the
camera should be right now.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
And this is the framing we would have been in
even had we not been in a yep.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Correct, and everything that I asked for, man, And I'm
telling you everything that I asked for, June did it.
So respect to him he also were.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
You giving him these ideas in the moment.

Speaker 4 (41:12):
I mean, obviously you talked about the blocking in advance
and you said, I'd like you to get into this
corner when we get to this moment. You saw the
shot in advance, you kind of knew where you wanted
to be, But were you in the moment also going
like farther back, man, a.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Little bit back, like a little bit up up up?
Okay down there? Perfect?

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yeah. I mean it was very like I said, you know,
it was like a thriller, you know, experience, because it's like, hey, man,
move more to the left, go more to the right,
like stay there. Yeah, We're I'm constantly giving him directions
and also a DP because you know we're both it's
a collaboration, and it's like, like, you know me, I'm
very technical, so I'm very like the camera preator is

(41:49):
like a body of mine. It has to be. So
I'm like, hey, man, like just go there, stay there,
don't move like So yeah, it was. It was a constant,
like tense situation because like you know, you're telling your
camera life like move here more, you know, and the
actor can move somewhere else, right, So it was fascinating
the process. I love it. I recommend it. I mean

(42:10):
as a one time experience. I recommended for any filmmaker
to do it. Just be aware of the distribution. Yeah,
but if there's not a lot on the state, yeah
do it, it's great. Well.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
So then there's also just one last element of the
camera and finding the shot. There's a story element to
the camera that I find kind of fascinating because there's
a character who were constantly sort of secondarily with and
I often found myself feeling like I was perceiving it
through the camera of this character, Like I was the

(42:46):
eyes of this character as.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
We were moving around the room.

Speaker 4 (42:50):
Was that an intentional choice or is that just a
happy accident of me watching it on the second viewing
and being like, that's why I was so comfortable with
this camera.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
No no, no, that was basically the objective with that
you're talking about like the glasses right, well, the unknown manner. Yeah,
I don't want.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
To no no, no, yeah, but you know whom.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that was the main That was
the main objective, And it was very fascinating because like
the actor Noel has, he had to be hiding, you know,
behind the camera and then like in the closet or whatever,
like whatever. He had to be hiding. So it was
a whole dance that he coordinated really well. I mean
he because he had to learn those like Okay, this

(43:31):
is my cue I have to go in. This is
my cue again, I have to go in. So yeah,
it was fascinating. I think it came out great, you know,
with him.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
I think that's a great I think there's a great
point in this where a lot of independent filmmakers and
low budget filmmakers forget that the camera is a character
and it is the audience's eyes into that moment, and
it's really easy to go like, what's the best fucking
shot I can get right now? But the reality is
sometimes the best shot isn't the shot that's going to

(44:00):
make the audience relate the most. How do you make
them a fly on the wall, or how do you
put them right in the emotion or how do you
put them here? And so I think figuring out that
way of constantly allowing or forcing the audience to be
in the proper perspective is a key.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
Absolutely, I agree one hundred percent. And there's a lot
of moments, like it's not aspoilerable when they go downstairs
to a pool table area. That's one moment where you know,
we also see him there and then he disappears and like,
you know, it's cool. Like I've heard it from a
lot of audiences around the world while we were doing

(44:37):
our festival run, and it's like, oh my god, I
love that dynamic of the character going in and out,
in and out, in and out, And yeah, I wanted that.
I wanted that some sort of psychological aspect of like, Okay,
who is this character? But like you feel like, oh shit,
you know that that's cool?

Speaker 4 (44:56):
Yeah, Okay, So thening two performances because that's sort of
where we've headed. The third question I have getting the
best performance Now with a movie like this, it's a
single take and you don't have time to stop it
and be like you gotta be you gotta be darker,
you gotta be funnier, you got to be angrier.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
How did you plan that?

Speaker 4 (45:18):
Was there a lot of rehearsal, a lot of like
going through the script with all of the actors talking
it through with them. Did you and Ted have a
lot of conversations about like this is what your character
is doing? Did Ted come back at you at like
I would never do that? What was it like to
plan this before you shot?

Speaker 3 (45:36):
So we were talking in advance for a straight month,
you know, like working on the character. And you know
he lives in Michigan Detroit, so we were like okay,
like yes, some I'm like your character is and he
would tell me like I would not do this. Can
we change it? Yeah? Sure, well let's change it. That's fine.
So with some sort of like new where the character
was going. But for performances, I mean, you're you're shooting

(46:02):
like literally you're shooting an hour and a half and
you're like burning a lot of time on set and
also actors, the crew, they have to have a rest.
So if you want to do a one take film, yes,
the rehearsals is a big part. But for me, it's
more about shooting and shooting and shooting because it's a

(46:23):
constant like muscle memory, muscle memory, Like all the actors,
they know what they're doing. Now, okay, now my emotion
is like more or less. And every time I caught
for another take, I can give notes to everybody and
we can do adjustments, but like you know, you're shooting again,
So it's very quick. So to answer your question about
also the time, we didn't have a lot of time.

(46:43):
I had three days. I had like one day for
a table read with all the casts, so everybody like
knew each other and we can like feel the energy
of the script. Then we have another day that I
split the blocking in two parts, which is like forty
five minutes, and then the next day I split the

(47:03):
other forty five or whatever it was left forty minutes
and then I mix it up and then we were
starting to do the whole thing. But I only have
three days to do the whole thing and then we're
shooting the next day. So it was insane, man, because
like it was so quick. Yeah, it was so like,
you know, everything was so quick. But I feel like

(47:24):
for the time we had and the result of the film,
I think it came out great. You know, it has imperfections,
but I wanted that because life is not perfect. Life
is imperfect. There's a lot of you know, ups and downs.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
That's funny you say that because I I, especially on
the second viewing, I wanted to find imperfections in performances.
And there were moments where I'm like, okay, so the
camera's not on this person, they're delivering a line. Maybe
it was adr, maybe it was whatever to figure this out,
like this line maybe wasn't said this way in the
moment based on the reaction ord But there were very

(47:57):
very few things as a filmmaker I was watching and
going like nitpicking and couldn't find them. Everyone seemed to
really understand what they were supposed to be saying, where
they were supposed to be, who they were.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
In that moment.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
So it feels like it feels like everyone was very
in Like it wasn't a matter of people. You didn't
you didn't have to be like, you know, find the performance,
find it, we got to get it here.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
You you trusted them.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
It seems like yeah, no, no, one hundred percent. And
the actors were very pumped, they were very excited. They
were all in. I didn't have any actors saying like,
oh my god, like one take.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
No.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Everybody wanted to do it a challenge, and I wanted
like most of the acts are theater actors, like they
come their background is theater.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
So that's which makes sense.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yeah, like this is a movie that is it's put
together in a theatric in a theater sort of way,
but just done cinematically correct.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
And everybody was like, oh my god, it's a dream.
It's like an actor's dream job or work or whatever,
because it's just like it's like if we're in a theater,
but it's a movie, and yeah, it's the same thing.
So most of the actors had the background and they
were comfortable with it. You know, Ted always says like, no, man,
but I needed more time because it's a full play

(49:14):
and for full plays and in a couple of months.
But at the same time, as we know film, there's
no time, like because you know, he's jumping in other
projects and I'm jumping in other projects, and it's just
like if we don't do it now, we're not gonna
do it.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
We're never gonna do it exactly, so.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
We gotta do it, and I'm glad we did it because,
like I said, we turn out great. We have a
shout out from Bruce Campbell as well, which is really nice.
It's really cool. So you know, it's I'm really proud
and I think he's really proud too of his performance
and what he did ted so.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Oh yeah, and he should be. It's a fantastic performance.
I mean, it really is.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
It's rare that a performance is like a quarter of
the movie. Like I always say, sound like score is
a quarter of the movie. Style is a quarter of
the movie. It's rare that one single performance is like
that much of a chunk of the movie. But his
performance ground the whole thing. You just want to watch
him forever.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
So you said, like you use the terminology before of
getting everyone to do what you want, and I like
that actually because that is really the director's job is
to get everyone to do what you want. You kind
of have to be a little selfish, get them to
say the lines the way you want them to say,
get things to move the way you want them to move.
But on a and for me, like when I'm on

(50:37):
a movie, I'm thinking about the edit, I'm like, Okay,
I can get what I want by kind of.

Speaker 5 (50:41):
Cutting here, or like I can kind of I don't
want to use the word manipulate, but I can kind
of manipulate things where I can tell someone's performance is
going one direction in their head, and I'm like, I
know that that's not how it's going to cut.

Speaker 4 (50:54):
So then I kind of figure out a way, like, well,
can we take it down a notch, let's go bigger
with it, let's whatever, And I find a way to
like give them what they want and give myself what
I want as well. With a movie like this, you
can't do that, like sans rehearsal. What was there a
way to do that on set? Were you able to say,
like in the moment, hey, let's ramp up this performance,
get crazy because there is like one one character specifically,

(51:17):
I could see his performance start to elevate. He's I'll
just say he's a character with a gun. Yeah, and
he like, he starts one way and then it slowly escalates.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
What how did you get that performance out of him?

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Yeah? So he's you know that actor is Daniel And
it was it was very funny because like I always
like to give background stories for all the actors, like, hey,
your character is the background story. And yeah, we talked
about like cocaine.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Great advice.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
By the way, So many people don't truly like I think,
especially low budget filmmakers, we don't think about that. But
I was literally in believed with my son who is
playing a big part in my next movie, and he
he was like, let's do a short film about my character.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
And I'm like why, Like, what's the point. He's like,
I just let's just try it.

Speaker 4 (52:03):
So we started doing stuff and he's sitting there going like, well,
why would I do this? Like what am I here to?
I'm like, oh my god, you're like really trying that.
You're acting like you are acting, You're getting the background.
And it reminded me that sometimes I forget to do
that with people, Like I forget even with the low
budget people, the people who are just there for a
day or whatever, to be like, this is your background,
Like this helps.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Oh yeah, it helps a lot. The actors like it's
just it's a tool that they can grab, right. So
we talked about all the background and the you know,
the struggle and financial situation that he was going through,
but also like he's a cocaine addict, so he was
doing cocaine. So I told him like, hey, man, like
you're doing cocaine and then you're getting in the house

(52:44):
after doing a couple of lines, you're still in control.
But then eventually like that's that thing is gonna start
to pop and then you have to be more and
more and more, you know, like your emotions. And yeah,
he understood the assignment very well, I think, and on
every take, you know, he was like, hey, did I
I'm over the top? Am I not over the top

(53:04):
or you know? And I'm like no, dude, like go
go go crazy. You know, it's like you're desperate, you know,
it's it's desperation what you have right now, and people
are gonna hate you. But that's the whole point, right,
So yeah, he did fantastic and I think Daniel read
a great job. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
I think that's a really fantastic point too, because I
have seen this with my movies where people will say,
like I hate that character and they don't. Sometimes they
don't like the movie because they hate that character. But
you're supposed to hate that character, so you have to
like remind yourself the reason I made this movie is
because I wanted to make a movie about villains or
this character is meant to be the villain. And it

(53:45):
sounds like Daniel was in that kind of in that
mindset of like, but I don't like it, not necessarily,
I don't want to be hated, but you know, sometimes.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
You have to be reminded like I'm a bad guy.
I'm not good.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
I don't need I have to go against my instinct
as who I am and become this ass. Yeah, what
kind of do you get other kinds of questions from
actors on any of the projects, not just on this one.
Do you ever get questions from your actors that you've
learned as a director how to give responses? Like there's
anything specific that you have learned on how to direct actors.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
I think, like, for example, with the remedy we have
you know, we have Timothy or an others from Thirteen
Reasons Why, we have Long and thor from gen v
Doug Jones from Shape of Water, like we have like
our cast is really called Chris Molkey from Whiplash, And
these actors have been around for many years, just like Ted.
But the difference between failure and the remedy is like,

(54:39):
for example, failure, it's only one, like you know, we
only we had other actors that they've been around, but
not in the same level of like you know, shows
or movies or whatever. So in the remedy, I it
was fascinating because you know, they're used to like big,
big productions and the remedy, like I said, is the
is the biggest. I'm like, don't But for them, it's

(55:01):
also it's an independent film, right, so it was very
interesting to you know, let them know that they were safe,
you know, on this independent you know, space we're not
gen V which is a massive Amazon show, but you
know that we have the same quality and that we
have the same crew and you know, so you have
to really give actors confidence and you know, so they're

(55:23):
like very you know, thinking, Okay, we're in a safe environment.
Alex cares about all scars, about our work. And also
to tell them.

Speaker 4 (55:31):
Like here's about the film at the end of the day,
Like I think, when we're on a set, you're all
in it to make art. Even if you're there for
a paycheck, you're still you're still making art when it's
all said and done.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
Absolutely, and also like you know that that I care
about details and I care about them and it's not
like I'm just throwing them on the fire, right, Yeah,
which I don't. I don't. I don't see it that way.
But a lot of people they see it like that.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
But no, for sure.

Speaker 4 (55:54):
I mean, honestly, a lot of actors are a lot
of people when you place a camera on them, even veterans,
they're thinking, how are they going to show me? Yeah,
naturally that's that's they don't have control over it. So
they're thinking, what what is he going to do with me?
So making them comfortable and knowing like.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Specifically what you are going to be showing of them
is kind of paramount.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
Absolutely absolutely give them trust to give them like so
they're comfortable. And I'm like Doug Jones, which is a legend.
I mean, I love Germon too, And we talked about
you know him and on set and he was he
love what we did on set, like what you know
what we worked on together? And I was like, dude,
like you have I mean, you're you're a legend.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
But yeah, but you know a true legend, like you
know me.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
I love Red. I love Red, and I have a
scene where I'm like, you know, dog, I'm gonna put
a love ren on you, like a lot. And he's like,
oh cool, I like it interesting. So you know, we
didn't shy the DP and I we put a lot
of red like and he loved it. He was like,
oh my god, this is great. So you know it's
cool that you know, like I said, they do bigger

(56:59):
stuff and Marc commercial whatever, but on this one we
can go nuts control again. But like they feel like,
oh my god, we did something unique.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
That is that's it right there, doing something unique.

Speaker 4 (57:12):
And I think that's one of the keys I found
when I'm talking to actors, being like we're trying something,
even if it feels weird, Like at the worst case scenario,
we tried something. Best case scenario, it's going to come
out amazing, and but let's let's try something and just
trust me. Just trust that I believe in this vision.
And most of the time, I feel like people are

(57:32):
along for the ride. They want to trust someone's.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
Vision absolutely, and I feel like if they trust you,
that's you know, it takes a bit for them because
they don't know you. They're still getting to know you,
and said, but I feel like once they do it's
it's awesome. It's also when there's a mutual trust between
you know, collaborators, and it's like, Okay, the one thing
I want for actors is to look great. That's all

(57:56):
I want. Like, I don't want them to look bad, right,
but I get it. You know, they're they're constantly in
the character and they're very vulnerable in front of the camera.
So you have to be like, yeah, you know, like
I hear you. Let's talk about it. You know what,
you know what didn't work for you, and you know,
make it work for both of us. So I learned that,
you know, with throughout the years with Ted as well,

(58:17):
because Ted also you know, it's fascinating. We were talking
about Sam Raimie, we're talking about David Lynch because he
worked with these guys and again he's like, I don't
you know, they don't do long takes like they always
caught man. So so it was fascinating for him to transition,
for like cotting Cotting Cott into like a one take,
and you know, he can tell his friends and everybody

(58:40):
in Hollywood like, hey, we did that one take. So
I feel like it's cool when actors do something unique.
That's what they want, you know, not to do something
that they do all the time, but something unique.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
So with a one take. Let's go back to that. Now,
this movie is is unique in the fact that you
have to work in parameters technically that a lot of
people don't have to with failure. I will I'll set
up my shot, I'll figure out visually what I want

(59:14):
it to be, and then I kind of build things
around it. So I'm just like, here is the angle,
Here is where the camera's going to be. Then I
build my lighting around that. Then I build where is
my shotgun mic going to be, where my love is
gonna be? How I'm gonna set up sound? And that's
where I'm leading with This is the sound on this movie.
I'm it's incredibly well done, and I think one of

(59:35):
the things that I there's a bunch of things I
appreciate about it, But I want you to speak to like,
how did you go about doing sound design on this
and directing from pre production figuring out how you're gonna
do it all the way till the final movie.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
How did sound work?

Speaker 3 (59:51):
So that's a great question because sound is a very
you know, it's very important for every movie, but for
this movie, it seems there's no room for or a boom.
There's no boom in this movie like at all. So
that was the conversation I had with the sound team,
and I'm like, guys, like, there's no way someone can
follow the camera, so what are we gonna do? So
what we did is like we put a lot of

(01:00:13):
lavaliers throughout the house, a lot of hidden microphones, so
in the closet, in the living room, the basement, like
all all the areas. But also the actors were wearing levelers.
The only thing is due to budget restrictions in the again,
we had to I think we had like eight levelers

(01:00:33):
per like with the cast. So there's a moment where
we have like all the level layers are VC and
then we're gonna have new actors going in on the
next scene. So when they exited, you know, the house,
they had to take off the lavaliers and they put
it to the other actors. Dude, and you know, I'm

(01:00:55):
not thinking about this because that's the sound worth, right,
But we talked about it and I'm like I trust them.
I mean, I'm sure they're gonna have nailed it and everything.
So they're like, Alex every time I say god, they're like, oh, amazing.
We were able to do it, dude, like, so they
were very excited to do it. But yeah, we had
the lavlier situation in the house with the actors. We

(01:01:15):
had more budget. We can mike everybody, but we just
didn't have that resources. But anyways, it worked out, and
in sound design it was awesome because like there's no cheating,
there's no way to like, oh, I'm turning to behind
me and then there's something else happening right. Like, the
sound design was very like organic, so it was kind
of like, Okay, we got to make sure that the

(01:01:37):
phone calls and the folly and what's happening everything feels
like like life, like normally it's there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's there.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
So the sound designer healed that which we've been working
for now twelve years. She's actually doing now the remedy
with her team. It was that, Okay, we got to
make sure this feels organic, but also like it doesn't
feel artificial or it doesn't feel like too much, and
she got it. It was also man because the sound
was so well on set that we only had to

(01:02:06):
record out of the eighty seven minutes like two pages
of ADR, which is nothing. Wow, and when I say
two pages of all the casts like Ted Daniel, everybody,
So I was like, wow. The sound guys did a
very good job because we didn't have to record. It
was like a less than an hour session. So yeah,

(01:02:26):
I mean the sound guys were amazing. I want. I mean,
I'm working with them ever and ever ever again, Like
I love them. So yeah, those guys are killers. They're great,
They're awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
Yeah, So that's I think that there's something there to
be said about the fact that one of my biggest
pet peeves is when the sound design is too much.
And with a movie like this, that would be very
easy to do. It would be super easy to have
every footsteps sound very loud. Footsteps are my biggest pet peeve.

(01:02:57):
Like I just oh, I hate the when it's just
like no one when you are listening in real life,
you don't hear people walking, so when you like, maybe
that would be the actual tone in the room, but
I don't care. I don't want to hear the reality
of it because you're just pulling my focus out of
the movie. It's it's you know, like when a movie's

(01:03:21):
focus isn't enough or it's too much. I get pulled
out of the movie because what I want to see
from the camera is what my eye sees, what my
focus is, That's what I want. And so when you
have a movie like, uh, you know, Zack Snyder right
now is doing the crazy fucking deep focus, I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Get pulled out of the movie. Now.

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
It's visually sometimes kind of cool, and I can be
like that's a cool shot. That's a cool shot, but
I'm never completely pulled in because of the fact that, like,
my eye doesn't see that way, and the same thing
goes for folly. I think people overdo it, and with
a movie like this could be overdone. In those sound
in those sound design sessions, was that like a conversation
that was had, like let's bring that down, bring that up?

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
Yeah, no, absolutely, there's And I agree with you. There's
a lot of movies that you watch and it's like, Okay,
I mean they it's in purpose. You know, it's too
much because they want that for the audience. But on
this one, yeah, we're role was that and when we
were when Kila was showing me like, hey, this is
the first you know, pass on the folly. Listen, let
me know what you think it was. It was cool

(01:04:21):
because you know she she knows me now very well
for almost, like I said, like twelve years. So it's
kind of like now I don't have to tell her
because she knows what I like. And the folly was great.
Since the first past, I was like, Okay, it's organic,
it's natural. It doesn't feel like too much. And then
the other artist, which is part of her team, she

(01:04:41):
was like, okay, if you need less, I can go
less or more and more. But I was like, no,
I mean it sounds pretty good. And then on the mix,
of course we're gonna go up and down, but no,
man like they were also un they're wonderful, and it
was a thing that they know me. They know me
a hundred percent what I like. And it's when you
find those collaborators makes your life so much easier. And

(01:05:04):
it's just like the rule of thumb is this. You
know it has to fill organic. That's yeah. If it
doesn't fil organic, I'm not interested. We're going to have
to redo it. So they know that and then okay
we go from there. But no, it was it was
very cool. And and also with the with the composer
because the composer, I wanted wood wood instruments because the
whole house is made of wood.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):
So it was like, okay, let's let's I want the
audience to feel like in the house entirely.

Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
At what point did you go, I want wood instruments.
Was that like a concept you had, because this is
something as I'm working on my new movie, I'm working
with a brand new composer and we're not even in
production yet, and I'm already talking to him about like
themes instrumentation where I want the score to go because
I feel like if I can hit that early on,
even before we go into production and I have a

(01:05:51):
couple of themes to work with, it will inspire the
feeling of the movie. If I can show my cast
like this is the feeling, like listen, do it. That's
such a it's such a pivotal part of any movie.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Is that sound? What is the tonal value of or
what's the tonal theme of this movie? And that's been
a big part of his instrumentation.

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
So the wood element, the woodwind instrument element is such
a brilliant thing because of that room.

Speaker 3 (01:06:19):
Yeah, no, I agree. If you can give them a
piece of white. This is like the environment that I'm visualizing.
I think that's great for failure. We didn't we didn't
planet before the shoot. It was more so like the
more we were shooting, it was like, okay, we're surrounded
by wood, and it was like, hey, man, like, would
you mind just just you know, using wood instruments. And

(01:06:41):
then when he saw the movie, he's like, it makes
total sense. Let's just do wood. That's it. And it
just came as.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
This composer as someone you've worked with before, is this
your normal composer.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
No, No, this is a so vincent this. I mean
he's been around for he's like sixty eight, so he's
been around for quite a long time. But this is
the first time I work with him. He's great, and
it was we have the same taste. So it's funny
like when when you talked composers about movies and scores,
if you have that click of like, okay, this is

(01:07:12):
the taste this is and then they reply, oh, yeah, yeah,
this is direct, it's okay. Great Today they know exactly
what you want. So he fell in love with the
film like even he saw a super role, Like I
literally I show him the film with no sound, We
know nothing. I was like, this is you know, because
usually that's how we go look, but it's the look
and he loved it. He's like, dude, if we can

(01:07:32):
elevate it with the with the instruments and then with
your sound design. So yeah, he's he loves the film.
He's very proud of the film, and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
He should be.

Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
The score is fantastic, But I think that that's fascinating. Like,
I like the fact that you've made the point of
with sound and score this movie. You work with someone new,
you work with people you've worked with before, you've worked
with the sound designer that you've worked with for twelve
years or whatever. You said, Like building these relationships but
also letting new people in. It just there's this element

(01:08:03):
of that's how that's the best way, in my opinion,
to continue.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
To make movies.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
After you've made your first low budget or your second
low budget or whatever, and you're trying to build up
to the next movie, the next level, bringing some of
those people back but then also letting new people in
is so it's like a key.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
No, it's a trick. It's literally a scam that we
can do pull.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Yeah, it's fresh, it's like they bring fresh things to
the table because you know, you're used to like days
in that and then they bring like this fresh alias
and he's like, oh, this is good. Like, for example,
for the remedy, I'm working with this other composer and
it's not like Vincaid can't do it. It's just the composer
that I'm using for the remedy he only does horror.
He only does horror, and I needed a horror fan

(01:08:45):
like I needed that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Yeah, it's a totally different sound, different sound.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
So yeah, no, he watched the remedy, he's like, oh my,
I love it. This is gonna be my BESDT score.
So he got very pumped, very excited. And yeah, I
mean the music that he does like you're scared, you know,
it's like, oh shit, you know, like it's very SCARYCUS music.
So I love it. It was a perfect match. I
will work with Vincent again, but for the remedy, it's
like I needed a horror horror fact, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:09:14):
And you know, one of the things I really liked
about the score in Failure is the fact that it
did build the tension. But it also because it was woodwind,
it had this like soothing element to it where it
was almost like it made me calm as I was
watching everything at certain points, And I think that that's
a really smart move versus doing the like strings, where

(01:09:36):
you could have easily just done tension. Just I could
see that playing through the whole thing as well. And
it's a completely different movie, a completely different style of
tension then. And I appreciate the fact that that you
had this would win and this kind of like relaxed
tone because it made me feel like it made me
continue to want to watch the movie because I was

(01:09:59):
very RelA acts through it even though it was very
tense situations.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
Yeah, that's that's a conversation that we wanted, you know,
with you know, Vincent and I. It's like, okay, in
this part it is like a thriller, but also like
to keep the audience guessing and to keep the audience
in this wooden, you know, house environment that they're it's
kind of like calm as you were saying, because it
is stressful. There's there's parts of the film that you're like, gosh,
you know what's gonna happen here? And it's not crazy.

(01:10:25):
So I always like to, you know, to mix different
things like, for example, in other projects, I like to
have like super peaceful music with a lot of violence,
you know, and I mean you've seen it with forgiveness. Yeah,
and then it's the opposite. It's kind of like there's
like stress and balance, and I like to mix it
with like peace or more calm music. So I like

(01:10:47):
to go to those like balances.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Fantastic. Okay, So we got to wrap this up.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
That will end there on that part for the conversation,
those are four a great point. I cannot wait to
cut this together with other filmmakers and make this my
first or you're part of my first episodes of season
six of Low Budget Rebels. But for this bonus episode,
let's wrap this up by telling people where and on

(01:11:14):
the episode, I'll tell people where they can see everything
and make sure that people go to watch all the
filmmakers movies and whatnot. But where can people see failure?

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Where can you?

Speaker 4 (01:11:23):
I purchased it on voodoo for everyone who's curious with
Fen Dany and go at home or whatever they call
it now. But I'm a voodoo Dan and I have
a voodoo library that we share and we have hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of movies. And when I bought
Failure a couple of weeks ago, Dan was just like pumped.
Dan was like, Oh, I can't wait to watch it,
And so where can people see it? Where can people

(01:11:47):
check out all of the stuff that you have website
all of that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Absolutely, So finally you can check out Failure on Voodoo Fandango.
You have Apple TV like it's gonn bet on demand,
so it's very easy access to it. Also, Forgiveness is
out now. It's on two B as well, so you
can watch it as well. Weird film, but it's good and.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Then pretty good. I I got to see it on
the big screen, but I've seen it twice since then.
I really like it.

Speaker 4 (01:12:15):
It's fucking fascinating movie. I feel like every time I
watch it, I take something different away from it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
Thank you so much, man, it means a lot. Yeah,
it's it's they're out there and I I feel proud that,
you know, we went to the end of the line.
It's out there. You can watch it. You can enjoyed it,
hate it, whatever, but you can see it. And yeah,
you can check out also the websites. My personal website

(01:12:41):
is Alex Kawam dot com or now we have the
my new production company, Kawa Films will com as well.
It's it's out there so you can check out the
latest news and everything down there.

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show Man.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
No, thanks so much, Josh. It's been a highlight. Appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Cannot wait to watch the remedy. I'm so excited.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
I can't wait to show it to you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
Thank you so much, Man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
And I will have you back with the.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
Appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:11):
All right, there is my conversation with Alex. Another conversation
with Alex. He's been on a few episodes, so if
you want to know more about forgiveness or to hear
our convers our stories of wild nights at fright Fest,
go check out the past episodes with Alex.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
All Right, we're back, We're back. That's it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:30):
That's another Low Budget Rebels, an old school style low
budget Rebels podcast. And if you want to hear more
like this Patreon dot com slash Flush Studios.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
I'm super stoked.

Speaker 4 (01:13:41):
I also really want to start adding to the conversation
from you guys, So if you have what here's what
I'm gonna do. And this may not work on this
episode exactly right. But if you go to speakpipe dot
com slash Low Budget Rebels, you can leave an audio
recording and talk about your tips and tricks that you've

(01:14:06):
learned over the years in different filmmaking elements, and those
will be played on the episode. So if you're an
editor and you want to talk about editing things that
you've learned or ways that you have improved your editing style,
tricks that you do, here's one.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
For instance.

Speaker 4 (01:14:20):
If you're like me, and when I'm done with an edit,
I listen to the entire edit.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
I don't watch it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
I like to listen to it one time through when
I feel like i've because I've watched it a thousand
times by the time I've finished a rough cut, I
know everything that happens visually.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
I've watched it. So then I go back and I.

Speaker 4 (01:14:37):
Listen to the sound, and I listen to the score,
and I listen to everything about it or the score
that I have at the time. Sometimes it's temp, but
even if it's TEMP, I go back and I listen
to I listen to the dialogue. I just feel it
out emotionally from what I hear, and that can completely
change the entire edit. It can make or break what
I'm working on, and I've done I've changed entire sequences

(01:15:00):
just because of the sound. So if you have stuff
like that, head over to speakpipe dot com, slash low
budget Rebels and leave me an audio recording of your
ideas and they will go in the episodes. If you're
a writer, if you're an editor, if you are a
filmmaker who wants to talk about things you've done with
your actors. And I will be posting on social media
even though I've stopped using so I've stopped doom scrolling.

(01:15:21):
I've gotten rid of that from my life for about
two and a half weeks now, I do not scrub
social media at all, and it has been Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
It feels so good. It truly feels amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:15:34):
And so I'm going to post about this and offer
this opportunity to come on the show, even if you're not,
you know, on an episode specifically, I would love to
have you on this show and part of this whole
speak Pipe thing, and those are going to be placed
in between interviews, so there's going to be like little

(01:15:54):
audio clips from folks talking about the filmmaking process on
the show. And I will be posting the topics for
the show before they release so that people can hop
on and have these conversations on speak Pipe and be
a part of the Low Budget Rebels podcast. Although the
show might be having a name change for the next
official episode, that's a little hush hush, We'll see what happens.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:16:15):
I'm still figuring all of this out as I move
into the new year. I'm learning and trying things and
realizing that I need to just let the universe take
me where it wants to take me. And sometimes that
means changing bigger things, changing out podcast names, or changing
out how I do the show, or changing out how
I make my movies, all these things, just kind of

(01:16:36):
letting the universe. Alex said it in this episode that
editing or the filmmaking process for him in a single
take movie is like a dance, and Robert Rodriguez said
it too, he said, what was the phrase he used?
Creativity is leading is like a dance. Let it lead
and see where it takes you. And this is how

(01:16:58):
I'm sort of going about twenty five is letting the
universe sort of lead me where it wants, and right
now it wants me to do podcasts. I can feel it.
I'm this was a complete joy to do and thank
you so much for tuning in. Thank you so much
for being a part of this show in the past,
and for those who are new listeners, thanks so much
for listening now. Until next time, keep kicking ass, keep

(01:17:21):
doing what you're doing, and as always, stay rebellious.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Low Budget Rebels is brought to you by the indie
film Hustle.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
Network, recorded at Flush Studios headquarters in tropical Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
Produced by the film daddy Josh Stifter, Ba La La Boo,

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