Trump's Trade War with China

Kurt Bauer- President & CEO, Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce




Josh Hammer- Senior Counsel Article III Project

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is made in America with Rich Rothman.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, hello everybody, it's good to have you here today.
A lot of listen. I gotta tell you, you can't
find today where there's not good news. There's something happening
all the time. We've been doing this for over fifteen
sixteen years, and this has just been amazing what's going on.
And it seems like there are a couple of things
out there right now that seem to catch the attention
of a lot of folks. And then one of this

(00:35):
word summed up in the word tariffs. Now, we talked
about this last week. We discussed, you know, what some
of the implications are as it relates to the administration
itself and what it means to other countries. And you know,
let's define good trade, fair trade, equitable trade, free trade.
You know, there's a lot of ways for us to
discuss this, but what it really comes down to, I

(00:55):
think is that you want to see what's main street
thinking about this, What does it really mean in reality?
You know, everybody can have an academic point of view.
That's easy. Mean, I did that and we all did
that in college. When we went to college, it was
all academics, not necessarily the real world, but it was
certainly academics. So everyone's got an opinion. Everyone's going to
play with it. We're gonna listen to all the top

(01:16):
economists talking about it. But it really comes down to
is what does it mean to the people who run
the companies. You know, and since we're a country of
small to mid size the SMEs country companies in the
United States, you are the biggest job creators. You know,
that's where the money goes. It's very, very important we
don't have that. We lose a good part of the country,
a lot of the country. I'm delighted to that point

(01:38):
to have somebody who really has a good feeling what's
going on in Wisconsin. That's Kurt Benson Bauer. Let's say
you know what said that again, Phil, do that again.
I want to come back to it. Ready, Okay, great,
And to that point, we have a terrific guest on
the show, Kurt Bauer. Kurt is the president and CEO

(01:59):
of Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce Associations, has been there for
over fourteen years and he kind of has his feeling
on the pulse and he's been out there in the
last few weeks talking about this, and well let's find
out what's going on in Wisconsin. Kurt, Welcome to Maid
in America.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Rich.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I am delighted to have you here because one of
the things we like to do in Maid in America
is find out what people are actually thinking. It's not
a question of you know, we're going to discuss Maslow
from nineteen fifty. I mean, it's great, and I love Maslow.
We can talk to hierarchies and all that stuff. That's wonderful,
but what does something that's happening really mean in real
time to a person? And that's where we you know,

(02:41):
we cut it differently from some other people. So Kurt,
you know you're out there, you're talking about the terrorists.
A lot of people think terrorists are scary. They're awful.
You know, we're really screwing up trade. And we know
now that you know, there are fourteen lawsuits against the
president's administration. Just this week we have the State of
California AG and Newsom. Governor Newsom file another lawsuit. So

(03:06):
it's very very interesting. It's a very emotional thing. If
you see it on TV, people are freaking out there
saying Oh my god, it's the end of the world.
It's the end of democracy. It's illegal, it's wrong. He
doesn't have the right to do it. He's going rogue again.
I mean sort of like, you know, why don't we
just go back to twenty sixteen and we'll figure out
all the you know, the adverbial phrases that were used
against you know, the president at that time. They seem

(03:27):
to be back. Kurt, tell us what is going on
in Wisconsin. What are the folks telling you.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Well, we're a big manufacturing state. We're an agricultural state,
so we make things, we grow things, and we want
to film around the world. And we're a big experts state,
about thirty billion dollars per year, mostly manufactured goods. Most
people think of Wisconsin, they think agg but actually we're
more manufacturing than we are agg related. So and I
have been, as you said, I have been out there
talking to my members. We just did a big roundtable

(03:55):
of manufacturers in North Milwaukee talking about a variety of
different issues, but of course tariffs is right now the
number one thing everyone's talking about. We were surprised in
Trump's first term that there was as strong support for
tariffs as there were, particularly against China, largely because of
the abuses. They don't do free fare, reciprocal trade, they

(04:17):
dump product into our market, currency manipulation, ip theft, you know,
all of the abuses that seems to have waned, that
seems to have wanned a little bit. We had about
I asked for a show of hands. We had about
fifty manufacturers in the room. About seventy percent were against
the terraffs or concerned about the tariffs, thirty percent in

(04:39):
favor for a variety of different reasons. Either they saw
a market opportunity for themselves to get the businesses from
tier one manufacturers, or they were just frustrated with the
inequitable treatment between you know, trading partners on you know,
the EU China. We open up our market to them,
they don't reciprocate to us. And of course it's not

(05:02):
just terriffs, it's other little games that they play with
regulations and so forth. So it is a bit of
a mixed bag. It depends on who you talk to,
what sector of the economy they're from, what sub sector
from manufacturing they're from, what their market is, who their
customers are, what their supply chains look like, the biggest
concern that we have is supply chain. We do have

(05:24):
a lot of our manufacturers that source components from China
and there are not domestic alternatives, and that's a concern
for us.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, you know, that's not the first time I heard that.
We discussed that last week on the show. It is
very concerning, and you know, just in time, supply chain
is very important because you're right, you can't build products
if we don't have it in the warehouse ready to
go to join everything else to put it together, you know,
and it's very hard to find any product that we
put together without having you know, international pieces so to speak,

(05:56):
coming together in as much as are cars, you know,
general motors and others that parts come from all over
the world, you know, but ironically, the only one that's
really truly made one hundred percent in America is the Tesla.
That's interesting, that's true, But yeah, no, it is. I mean,
and then they you know, they're they're melting them. So

(06:17):
it's just it's just an amazing thing. Let me ask
you a question, why what are they worried about with
the terror Let's go back to one of the earlier
part of your comment. You said that about seventy percent
we're concerned about. What are they concerned about?

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Well, the biggest thing is if they're sourcing something in
their supply chain, a precision product or a raw material
that is just not available domestically or perhaps not even
from another country. Of course they're going to probably pay
a terror from that other country, but just not as
much as in China. So it depends on what your
inventory is. And you mentioned earlier manufacturers use typically just

(06:55):
in time inventory, so they source product when they need
it as opposed to a warehousing it because of the
cost involved. Now that did change a little bit with COVID.
They did change a little bit with COVID because they
wanted a little bit more of a cushion. And I
will say that the COVID experience has helped our members
quite a bit from the standpoint that they were very
resilient and resourceful during that episode. They had the source

(07:19):
product and figure out how to continue to manufacture despite
the fact that transportation lines were cut, supply lines were cut,
So they have been able to try and figure this
stuff out to some extent, they had contingency plans. This
isn't a surprise. The President came after at this during
the campaign, we knew he was going to do it,

(07:41):
we just didn't know exactly what it was going to be.
So there is, of course this period where we're trying
to figure out how do we manage it, where can
we source product, and what do we do next?

Speaker 2 (07:51):
So I want to go back to this conversation about
you know, having the ability to get products you can
build something, you know, but that's to me, that's a
very crucial thing. So when when you have you spoken
with the Trump Trump himself? Have you spoken to the president?

Speaker 3 (08:08):
I've met the president, but that was in twenty seventeen,
so it's been a while.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, no, no, no really and he wasn't talking about this
at the time. But no, But what is the this
is a very important point. What is the administration actually saying,
because that's a valid concern about you know, getting parts
that you have these very special parts that need to
go into what you're creating, and it's very limited where

(08:33):
you're going to go to get it. You don't get
it in the United States because we're not manufacturing it
these parts. Perhaps in the United States there may not
be anywhere else, but in China, you know, it's sort
of like, you know, rare earth minerals they come from
China or they come you know, God, most of it
comes from China, and that's a big problem. So what's
the you know, what do they say is a solution?

(08:54):
Does the administration say anything about that?

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, we were in the White House and said and
we did express our concerns. Now, we didn't have all
the details back then. We were literally there, I think
two weeks after the Trump administration took office, so it
was still pretty new. We knew he was going to
do something, we didn't know what. But I think the
presence perspective is that this is kind of like quitting
smoking cold turkey and meaning that it's an abrupt and

(09:19):
sudden there is a benefit down the road, but there's
withdrawal pains and the shock your system. I think that
that's what he that would be his argument. He is
very concerned, and I think understandably so, about the geopolitical
threats that China posesus to the United States, and he
wants us to not source products from a global adversary.

(09:41):
Of course, there's not always an alternative, and that's the problem.
You mentioned rare earth. You know, of course, we've got
rare earth minerals here in North America and the continental
United States. Alaska certainly Canada has some. We don't have
the processing. It's going to take time. You can't just
snap your fingers and expect us to be able to
produce an alternative. You know, it takes capital, it takes

(10:05):
specialized machinery, it takes permitting, depending on what it is.
If you're and of course we need we need time
to figure this out. So again, I think it's kind
of the cold Turkey approach from the president's perspective. He's
kind of throwing you in the deep land and seeing
if you can swim.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Okay, so listen, we're going to come right back with
Kurt Bauer. We're discussing tariffs, the effects in real time
on manufacturers and UH and and and court of course
as a president and CEO of the Wisconsin Manufacturers and
Commerce Association, and we're gonna get back with some more stats.
Don't go anywhere because it does affect you, So stay seated.

(10:57):
Welcome back to Medadian America. This is Rich Rothman and
your host. We're on right now with Kurt Bauer. Kurt
is the president and CEO of the Wisconsin Manufacturers and
Commerce Association. We're talking about tariffs, and we're talking about
TIFFs in real time and what it means to manufacturers. Now,
you're an AGRICULTURALI I mean, you wear these cheese hats.
That's the only state that I know that you know

(11:19):
has cheese hats. So, and by the way, I want
to get wis. I would wear a cheese hat. I would,
I am it's great, a cheddar cheese hat. I would
do that. You guys are known for that. But let's
go back for a second. So agriculture big part of
your state, obviously, and we're talking about energy. Now, energy

(11:40):
includes agriculture on multiple levels, whether you can use machinery.
I mean an upstate In New York, I spent seven years.
I lived in a city of farmers. Syracuse was a
city of farmers when I was there. The surrounding areas,
you know, Camillis and other places are all farmers. I
lived in Farmland. The greatest people I ever met in
my life, the hardest working people I ever met in

(12:00):
my life, the most underrated people I ever met in
my life. Oh my god. They work so hard, including
the kids. So if in fact, we're going to have
an energy conversation and how does that affect agriculture. So
let's first discuss energy. So we're hearing in some of
your interviews who say that energy is going to get
more expensive, yes or no? What do you think we could.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well, there were three concerns that we had with the tariffs,
supply chain, energy, and market access. So on the energy front,
we were particularly concerned because the President had initially said
that he wanted to have an import tax on energy
coming in from Canada. Well that's where Wisconsin gets much
of our energy coming in from Alberta. That has since
been suspended, so we're a little less concerned about that.

(12:46):
That's a little less front burner, but it's still a
vulnerability for us, at least until we can completely get
us energy resources back up to where they need to be.
I mean, we control our own desity on energy in
North America if we have the will, the political will
to do so.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah. But also, as you just aptly pointed out, you
can't turn a switch and make it happen overnight. It's
just not going to do that. You know. For one thing,
we were kind of on our path to that, we
were independent in the first Trump administration, it was remarkable,
and gasoline was you know, let's just say it's under
two dollars. I've heard numbers all over the place, but
let's just say it was under two dollars. Which is great,

(13:23):
it's wonderful. It really helps everything. It's an agnostic gift
to everybody. But but it doesn't happen overnight. And since
it was closed down in twenty twenty when the Biden
administration took over, it's going to take a while to
get it back up. So and a lot of that
we're talking about also comes from Canada, from Alberta. So

(13:44):
it seems to me that Wisconsin and the United States,
and particularly those who belong to your association look to
Canada and ultimately Mexico, which brings up, of course naptin.
Now the you know US MCA thing. You know, what's
the special relationship that we have with them, and how
does this energy team fit into that.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Well, Canada's our number one trading partner in Wisconsin by far,
so we have a positive balance of trade with them.
We've been working with them. Obviously, we get the energy,
we send them a variety of different products in return.
You're absolutely right. It's going to take a while to
get us domestic energy production where it needs to be.
And of course the other question is is that if
you're an energy company, do you make that investment. You

(14:26):
don't make it for the short term, you make it
for the long term. We've got another presidential election, you're
coming up in twenty eight. That seems like it's far away.
But if the Democrats take control, you know, they shut
this all down again, and maybe you don't get the
return on the investment that you were hoping to as somebody,

(14:47):
and it plays into this without question. But the reality
is that in a place like Wisconsin, you know, the
sun doesn't shine enough for a solar we're not in
a wind quarriter or for wind, so we need fossil fuels.
And you're not going to be able to replace sofsile
fuel energy production in Wisconsin with something an alternative, at

(15:10):
least not unless there's some sort of scientific or you know,
technological breakthrough. So energy, of course, it's the master resource.
It is the common ingredient and everything that's manufactured, grown,
transported and when the cost is high, and of course
we're in an inflationary period right now, that just drives
up inflation.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Well, also energy and fossil fuels. You know, the irony
of the whole thing is, I've been reading these articles
that we really don't that it really doesn't come from
fossil fuel and one things, well, it's you know, it's
a bunch of dead dinosaurs. It's it's not right. We'll
go into that's another show. But it's not exactly correct.
It comes from other sources. But yes, its fossil fuels. Okay, great,
So fossil fuels play into agriculture because if agriculture doesn't

(15:53):
have the ability to fertilize and increase the crop intelligently
and you know, really as smart to grownuous way, then
we're going to fail. So there's a link to that too.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, that's a great point. Gasoline petroleum products are common
ingredient in in the fertilizers, and you know, it's a
common ingredient in so many different things that people don't
realize and clothing you name it, plastics. So you're absolutely right. Again,

(16:27):
I can't emphasize enough how important energy is, particularly to
a state like Wisconsin manufacturing agriculture. You use a lot
of it for us in manufacturing. If the cost of
energy is low, that makes our products in the United
States competitive globally. If the cost is high, that eats
up on the margin and makes us I'm competitive and
costs us jobs.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
You know, how do you say that? It's a very
I've noticed by living up there, it's a very very
fine line between profitability and failure in the farm, in
the agricultural field, unless you're part of you know, ARSA
Daniels Midland or some big, big corporation. And that brings
up another whole political conversation to have, because boy, I

(17:09):
remember the family owned farms really up in the arms
about you know, the Fortune five hundred, you know, agricultural
beams that would come in and buy up their land
and you know, put their men of business. But yeah,
it's a minor things can really make a difference. I mean,
and it's a lot of things you can't even control it.
The weather alone can put somebody out of business in

(17:32):
the agricultural field. I have a lot of love for
the farmers, I have to tell you that. So all right,
let's let's back and let's pull back about ten thousand
feet for a second. What's the deal in terms of
who do you think would be winners and who would
be Let's have to who are the winners in this?
There must be some winners in this.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
The winners in the terraffs are domestic suppliers that can
quickly adapt and provide large manufacturers the components that they
need to continue operating. And I've talked to some of them.
They're out there. They have to make some investments here
and there, and some machinery. But bottom line this is

(18:12):
that suddenly they can be competitive and they're out trying
to find new customers. So those are the winners, you know,
long term. Look, I do think that the president is
onto something. I do think that countries that have taken
advantage of should be called to account. I think tariffs
are an important tool. Is it a blunt instrument or

(18:32):
is it a scalpel? You know, your listeners can maybe
decide that. But I'm not opposed to tariffs. I'm just
concerned with some of the uncertainty, and I certainly don't
want to see some of our members go out of
business or suspend operations because they can't service products. But
there are certainly winners.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Okay, So let's we have about a minute left in
the segment. So I'm anxious to hear a little bit
more when you talk about stats overall, you know, for
when I understand about fifty six percent of your state
business leaders are against you know, and these are your
largest trading partners are against the teriffs. Am I right on? That?

(19:11):
Is that about right?

Speaker 3 (19:12):
They're against the terriffs? Right? You are right that that
survey was done in December, so we didn't you know,
the Trump administration hadn't taken off in office yet, so
we didn't know the specifics. But that was specific to
Canada and Mexico.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
No question, things change every day with the with the
Trump administration. That's what makes it exciting. I have to
tell you that that's why we're out of bread at
the end of the day. Well, listen, I want to
I want to thank so much Kurt kirk Bauer for
coming on the show. Remarkable conversation. President CEO of the
Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce Association. Delighted to have you here.

(19:46):
Come back to Made in America real soon.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Kurt, thanks so much. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Thank you. We're going to be right back with a
lot more show. Don't go anywhere because we've got a
lot to talk.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
About promoting American industry. This is Made in America with

(20:16):
Rich Rothman.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Welcome back, Glad to have you here today. This has
been very, very interesting talking about all the things that
are really scaring a lot of people out there, like
the tariffs we're talking about in China. China, China, China,
as Trump would always say, China, China, China. Everyone has
an opinion about China. I know I did. I've done work,
I've spoken in China, I've been there many times. I

(20:40):
did a major project and ophtalmologic medicine with the eyes
for macular degeneration. I'm going to I'll discuss that a
little bit later in the show when we're talking to
our guest who's here right now, Josh Hammer. Josh Hammer
is the leader of the Article three project. He's the
host of the Josh Hammer Show, and he's written a

(21:00):
very interesting article that I'm intrigued with. It says Trump's
life's work culminates in confronting communists China and that man,
that's certainly where we're at right now. Welcome to Made
in America. Josh.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
It's great to be with you.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
Thanks very much.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Absolutely. All right, so listen, so right now, I mean, god, people,
you hit every hour on the hour we're talking about
China and this we seem to be going back and
forth through then when you know, we hit, they hit,
we hit, they hit. You know. So, just from the
ten thousand point of view, what do you think's going
on here? Well?

Speaker 4 (21:37):
I think what's going on here is that bipartisan elites
of both parties have sold Americans down the river for
fifty years, and then that Donald Trump is trying to
stop it. I mean, that's that's the takeaway headline here.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
I mean, you're right.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
This goes back to Richard Nixon's fateful visit to visit
Chairman Mauzidong in Beijing in the early nineteen seventies, and
we were told all these platitudes over and over again.
We were told that welcoming China into the fold of
Western nations, welcoming them into the global economy, it would
be good for all parties involved. We said that it
would help American exporters. We would get you lower prices

(22:11):
on everything from Walmart to Amazon to the local toy store.
And that we were told in China itself that economic
liberalization would lead to political liberalization. Those are the talking points.
In reality, none of it has been successful. We have
literally given our arch geopolitical foe the very rope with
which to hang ourselves. We have put ourselves in a

(22:33):
position where we are hopelessly dependent on China for everything
from our pharmaceuticals to our personal protective equipment. We saw
that in the early days of the COVID nineteen pandemic,
to semiconductors, the very things that power everything from your
X thirty five to your local iPhone. And it's time
to change. And Donald Trump is someone who's been very

(22:53):
outspoken on the issue of China and frankly trade in general,
for a very, very long time, and he's spoken out
in a way that is very different for most of
his economic strata. I like to call Donald Trump a
class trader. He's someone who holds belief that most of
his fellow ultra millionaires and billionaires will consider traitorous on
the issue of China. But I say that in a
good way, of course, because frankly, the ruling class has

(23:16):
gone it wrong for so long. I think Donald Trump's
the guy to finally finally saw it out and breaks
through the fog and gets back to a point of
sanny when it comes to the Chinese Communist Party.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
So I got it. You know, it's very interesting. And
actually the deputy deputy press secretary on Nixon's trip was
a good friend of mine. He was down here in Miami.
Now he actually lives in California, in the middle of
the desert somewhere. But John Carlton Carlson, he was a
deputy Press secretary and he was on that trip, a

(23:48):
very historic trip. I mean, I don't know what these
presidents were thinking. How did we wind up, Josh in
a situation where are pharmaceuticals, which means the health of
this nation? You know, things that relate to that are
you know, obviously we saw that in covid Are we're
relying upon them, the rare earth minerals that we need

(24:10):
to create you know, electric batteries and cars and so forth.
They come from China, you know, products and services. I mean,
good lord, I mean it just doesn't stop. So here
we are in a situation that were so dependent on
what's the word I would do, Oh, that's right, enemy,
the enemy of the I mean this is they are
an enemy of the country. Aren't they.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Oh yeah, the Chinese Communist Party are unambiguous enemies of
the American people and of the American nation states. I mean,
these are people that are crazingly stealing our trade seekers
and specual property and then illegally subsidizing them for export
on global market and violation of World Trade Organization rules.

(24:51):
This is the country that is flooding the American homelands
with Sentinel more than any country in the world. They
are responsible for America's mass overdose crisis. Horrific crisis. Frankly,
I know it all too well. My cousin tragically died
from such an overdose eight years ago, so it's.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Kind of first fear for me.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
Actually, the Chinese Communist Party has spyware of the United States.
We call that TikTok. They have these confucious institutes on
American university campuses that also exist simply to spy on
American higher education. They literally fly spy balloons across the
North American continent. This is an enemy force and they
are actively arrayed against the United States, by the way,

(25:27):
and essentially every geopolitical hot spot across the entire globe.
When it comes to Russia, to Iran, North Korea, and
so forth, that they are consistently aligned with America's enemies.
They are very close to Cuba when it comes to
trying to get spyware here into South Florida, where you
and I both live. It's a mess. It's an absolute,
unambiguous mess. And it was all done due to complete

(25:50):
unmitigated naivete from America's ruling class. And again, they were
just trying to maximize consumer surplus and lowest prices by
any means POSSI. The bawl, A lot of it was
driven by economic interest. Wall Street won and new consumers
and so forth there, but it's been a total disaster.
And again, Donald Trump is someone who's been very outspoken
in China.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
For a long time.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
Prior to China, by the way, you go back and
look at the nineteen eighties, he was very outspoken about
Japan before China. He has this clip on Oprah Winfrey
Show from nineteen exactly.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
I was just going to go to that. You're you're
very correct. Yeah, No, he's been very very vocal about it.
He said, we've been getting ripped off for decades, and
we have. I mean, we all remember Japan, Japan was
buying up. I mean, they brought up Los Angeles. Look
at the movie die Hard, you know, not Gootomy Tower.
I mean that was the the pinnacle of you know,

(26:39):
the time that Japan was, you know, buying in and
everybody was pushing heavily to get the Japanese here and
take their money. You know, they were very, very cash rich,
and you know that didn't do well for them in Longman,
I don't think but Litten, I'm going to go back
to this for a second, how do we so miss this?
What I don't think it was. You may be right
in the naivete of some people. A lot of people
were not naive about it. You know, some presidents, you know,

(27:03):
sold off in terms of I mean, I thought Clinton
cut a deal for satellite technology with the Chinese back
in the nineties. You know, I've read that. I'm not
claiming that's accurate, but I'm just saying that that was
out there. Certainly US corporations wanted in very badly. You know.

(27:23):
I actually did a magazine for a while called China
Trade the way I did Latin Trade. And now I
do you know Latin Well, what do I do right now?
I do global Miami and core Gables magazine. But but anyway,
they wanted in. I mean, Procter and Gamble did a
massive study, a major focus group and realized that one

(27:44):
day they have zero there and the next day they
have six hundred and eighty thousand people buying toothbrushes and toothpaste.
And the numbers, if you ever really understood China, have
been there a bunch, the numbers astound you. They just
astound you. In terms of the traffic, in terms of
the bise, in terms of the scaffolding that you see
in downtown Beijing. When I was there last it was

(28:05):
just unbelievable. The number of cars that it was just,
oh my god, it's off the charts. But so is
the way they treat some of the people who do
business there. So I think some of the corporations are
at fault for this because they listen. I hate to
say it, but there's nothing wrong with capitalism. But in
terms of greed, you know, they thought they were going

(28:26):
to make a fortune, China would be liberated, they'd being
filed and getting these products. People won't want to turn
back to a communist model. Everything's going to be great,
all will be well, so on. It was like sort
of like nineteen eighty four, but it didn't go that way,
did it.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
Well, Look, we've seen this playbook over and over and
over again. I mean, we saw how people affiliate with
the NBA, the National Basketball Association when they come out
and they say something positive about Taiwan or they criticize China,
and they are immediately told to shut up and take
it back less to the NBA in any way risk
selling jerseys and souvenirs and what not to a massive

(29:05):
Chinese audience. We saw this a few years ago. I
came out of the film. But a film came out
in the summer of twenty twenty they think might have
been a fast and furious movie of Memory Serves, and
one of the actors said something positive about Taiwan, and
then he also basically rescinded it within twenty four hours
and said, oh, I didn't mean to say what I
just said there. So there's all sorts of coercion and pressure, pressure,

(29:27):
and some some of that comes from American businesses. Some
of it, frankly comes from China itself because China's senses
weakness and if you look at the statements from their
Foreign Ministry and their poll bureau testicles over the years,
they oftentimes speak to Americans in a deeply condescending and
menacing tone. And again, no one has actually stood up
to them. No one has done it. Most of it

(29:47):
is economic interests. As you said, the corporate class, the
fortune five hundred have had no interest so whatsoever. And
I guess I will say this to a small extent,
I get it. If you are a CEO and you're
only ambition in life is to maximize shareholder value, I
get it.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Here's the issue.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
The issue is that I, as an American citizen, I'm not
solely I'm definitely not solely, exclusively, or even predominantly concerned
with maximizing the shareholder value of any given corporation. I
am concerned with the things that people have been concerned
since we instituted governments among men, pursuing the common goods,
securing their rights, justice, and so forth. There, and you
do have this genuine disconnect between what is the quote

(30:27):
unquote most economically efficient outcome and what is good for
the American national interest. So I think that we've been
letting frankly, the economists and people who just tut economic
theory to the exclusion of anything else been calling the
shots for a very very long time. There that has
really served America quite poorly.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Well, yes, I agree with that, but look at you know,
but there's a great history of corporations being screwed in China.
I mean, asked Siemens when they developed the subway out
of the airport in Beijing into downtown Beijing for moving
passengers swiftly and efficiently, and they basically they did one.

(31:06):
The Chinese saw it, and then they just stole the plants,
stole everything else, never did the rest of the projects,
and wind up only doing the one. So it seems like,
do you know of any place else in the world
where you would do business and the technology that you
develop you have to show them and give them all
the inside information, because that's kind of what they had
you had to do when you're doing business in China.

Speaker 4 (31:27):
It's nuts.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
It's absolutely nuts.

Speaker 4 (31:29):
I mean, they've demanded this of the cost of doing
business for a long time. Do you essentially hand over
your intellectual property, your trade secret? It's absolutely positively nuts.
And so look, I mean, if you want to go
down a slightly different approach, I do think a lot
of this ends up being economic corporate driven. Part of
it probably ends up being a little pinko communist trendsly

(31:52):
driven as well. I mean, well, communist China today does
not exactly look like the Marxist Leninist dystopia that they
thought it would. It's changed in many in many ways,
but it was found that as a Marxist Leninist state,
and it was founded this way in the context of
the Cold War of late nineteen forties, the emergence of
Stalin and the Soviet Union and so forth there, and

(32:15):
that's what made Nixon's trip there in nineteen seventies all
the more remarkable, for both good and for ill. So
I mean, don't short change the ability of democrats, of leftists,
of people on the left here in the United States
to sympathize with a communist regime simply due to the
fact that is a communist regime. I think back to
Bernie Sanders back when he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont,

(32:38):
back in the nineteen seventies. I mean, he literally flew
the hammer and stickle flag of the Soviet Union in
his mayoral office after previously honeymooning there. He literally did
that so I mean, never underestimate the ability of people
just just sympathize with communists for the very simple fact
that they are communists. So that probably has something something
to do with it at least as well.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, well exactly, But we're going to come right back. Well,
we're having a great conversation, you know, with Josh Hammer,
and we're talking about China. And he did a piece
and we saw it in real clear products. Is Trump's
life's work culminates and confronting communists China, And we are
certainly doing that every day, certainly doing that every day.
And by the way, this isn't something that so arcane

(33:18):
and out there, way out and left field. This affects
you every day. It affects you in your pocketbook, it
affects you in the products that you're buying. It's just
an amazing situation that we are in with China and
how to unravel ourselves. We're gonna be right back with Josh.
Don't go anywhere. Welcome back to Made in America. This

(33:44):
is Rich Roffman, your host, and we're on the show
right now with Josh Hammer, and we're talking about Trump's
life's work culminating and confronting communists China, and I gotta
tell you this is very very interesting. You know, they
attack us in many ways, and they don't physically attack
us yet, but they do have they have done that
in many insidious ways. Of course, you mentioned fentanyl before.

(34:06):
I mean that is such an evil thing, you know.
I mean, they produce the product, the raw product, I
guess in China, they ship it to Mexico, right, and
then in Mexico they process it into whatever. Because it's
not like you take a fentanyl like it's a cocaine
thing or something like that. I mean, they put it
into pills. And some of these pills look like valiant.
They look people actually think. I guess, tell me if

(34:28):
I'm right or wrong, Josh, these pills look like the
irregular pharmaceutical pills. Is that right? And some people are
duped into taking it, not knowing they're taking an evil drug,
a bad drug. It's gonna kill them.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
So that is often hours.

Speaker 4 (34:41):
Oftentimes they will lace strengthen all into cocaine, although that
is more likely to be done on the back end
by the drug cartels in northern Mexico than the Chinese
communists themselves. But yes, the methods vary, but there is
one country above all that is responsible primarily for the
fact Thatmericans in recent years have been overdosing to the

(35:02):
two novo for one hundred thousand Americans a year, which
is just an astronomical figure. I mean, we're literally talking
about the equivalent of multiple seven thirty seven airplanes falling
out of the sky a day, literally a day of
I mean, it's one of the most underdiscussed tragedies in
all of American life. I'm very passionate about this issue,
and China is really the number one country most responsible

(35:25):
for it, and it is genuinely just outright evil, as
you said.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
So, but they do things that are just amazing. I
mean you call it, and I love this term mental fetanyl.
Mental fetanyl. That is just, oh my god, mental fetanyl.
You were relating to TikTok, So that's it. To me.
That is such an insidious thing for them to do
because they hook people literally on this concept for a platform,

(35:51):
a digital platform, and you still see the ads right now.
There are fifty million people companies on TikTok right now.
They rely upon tikknock. I mean, it sounds like they're
the best friend to American manufacturers and retail is that
what you're trying to convince people of.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
Well, I mean, so TikTok. The thing that's most interesting
about TikTok is how different it is insofar as how
the Chinese and fytesance operated in the United States versus
China itself. So the algorithm is genuinely different. It is massively,
massly different, as empirical studies have demonstrated, from the way

(36:31):
that it operates here in the US versus China. So
in the US they algorithmically try to boost certain contents
that they cynically but correctly view as being subversive to
Western or American interests. So, for instance, when it comes
to the gender ideology phenomenon, they are massively rigging the
algorithms to boost pro transgender content for vulnerable teenagers, trying

(36:56):
to increase rates of depression, you know, rates of people
who just don't comfrole in their own bodies, the loneliness,
despond despondency, all the above. Similarly, when it comes to
the war in the Middle East, the ratio of pro
Hamas content to pro Israel content since October seventh is astronomical.
It's literally like a fifty to one ratio or something
like that. That's not necessarily what they do in China itself,

(37:19):
but they're again, they're trying to induce and to hook
Westerners and Americans above all, into thinking and believing things
that are fundamentally counter to our nation, our civilization. It's
very similar. You know, we were just talking about how
it is the Communist party that runs after all, it's
very similar to how the Communists in the Soviet Union

(37:40):
actually operating the world stage back in the nineteen sixties.
So back during the civil rights movement in the United States,
it was a well known Soviet tactics. We tried to
disseminate pamphlets, flyers in certain areas, basically trying to gin
up resentments among black citizens against white people, basically trying
to drive trying to very cynically drive Black Americans into

(38:04):
the arms of people like Malcolm X rather than Martin
Luther King Jr. It was a very cynical tactic that
a lot of Sobet and Soviet sympathizers did back in
the nineteen sixties. I view it as very similar to
what China does with its TikTok algorithms. Say they're basically
just trying to sow discord. They're basically just trying to
tear Americans a part of the scenes and ultimately lead
US an uprising against ourselves. It's deeply cynical stuff, but

(38:26):
the Communism doing in one way or the other for
a long time.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, it really is amazing the way they've done it.
So they've done it with adults. I've done it with corporations,
the small corporations and multi mid sized corporations. They've done
it with the kids. So they have the next generation
and everyone gets hooked on this thing. And I know
lots of people who use TikTok. I don't use TikTok.
I don't want to get involved with TikTok because they're

(38:52):
basically stealing your data. Let me ask you a question,
and this goes back to our culture in general. What
do they take that gives them an edge that's so
insidious and so evil that they're saying that, you know,
TikTok is like in your computer, and everything that's in
your computer is visible to the Chinese Republic. How what

(39:12):
do they get? What does it do for them?

Speaker 4 (39:16):
Well, I don't know exactly what they benefit from it.
To be hones with you except trends. They know that
they know what people are thinking.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
By doing that, that's to me, that's important too. They
know where your head's at, so they know how to
deal with you. Maybe that's what they do.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
Look I mean, speaking of China. One of my famous
or not famous, one of my most favorite quotes, one
of my favorite quotes is from the old ancient Chinese
military strategist and theorists Sun Sou, and he said this
literally two and a half millennia ago. And he famously
said that the battle is won before it is fought,

(39:55):
because there's one by choosing the terrain on which it
is fought. It's very very important advice. As a lawyer myself,
I think that is great advice for a litigator who
walks into a trial. You try to define the terrain
on which your argument is fought. It's also true for
literal actual military conflict of course, as well as the
Americans taught the British, for example, during.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
The American Revolution.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
But I think in many ways that that is what
China is trying to do with TikTok. They are choosing,
and they are warping and distorting the terrain on which
societal events are unfolding, whether that is the transgender phenomenon,
whether that is the prohamas uprising on campuses. They are
having a real tangible, discernible effect on all these various

(40:40):
social maladies here in the United States. There, and in
so doing there they are hoping to win the battle
God forbid by again choosing this terrain on which this
battle is actually fought. So it's really diabolical stuff. But
you also cannot accuse them of being dummies either. They
really thought this through and to their satanic credits, I
guess that is the case.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Hello, okay, satanic credit. Yeah, that's interesting, you said that.
All right, So in the time that's left, Josh, let's
just touch on a reprise of tariffs. So what are
the tariffs going to do? What are the tariffs going
to do? We're complaining it's it's unequitable. They do currency manipulation.

(41:24):
We know that Trump's been complaining about that for years.
We see it. They do intellectual property theft. I mean,
they do everything they can to hurt us in the
long run. And yet you know we're there. Major corporations
are there. GM moved major major divisions into into China.
It's just it's just unboil. Apple, you know, had their

(41:44):
Fox Com, their major manufacturing plants over there. It's just
it's unbelievable. So with these tariffs, how does that resolve
it or not resolve it?

Speaker 4 (41:55):
Well, well, it's too early to say. The jury is
still out, but we have already seen some positive indications.
I mean, we've seen companies like Apple. Now, Apple is
the exception that the world's largest company by market catholics.
Apple did announce that they will invest five hundred billion
dollars in the US over the next four years. Johnson
and Johnson and has pledged fifty five billion dollars in

(42:16):
US investment, allegedly in Nvidia, the computing technology company, plans
to invest what they referred to as quote several hundred
billion dollars when it comes to electronics manufacturing. So there
are definitely some positive signs.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, absolutely great, great finality to that one, excellent comment.
It's been a hell of a week. It's been wild.
You know, we were out there, we're seeing what's going on.
Every day we're talking about the tariffs. The stock market
is reacting up and down and up and down. It'll
figure it out. Eventually, Carlo is convinced it'll eventually ferret
itself out, as well as many others. People are concerned,
but hopefully it's not as violent as it was a

(42:52):
few weeks ago. On the market. You know, I remember
the market is very emotional, and you can make a
face somewhere then they go, oh my god, you know
something we don't know. The market goes to hell for
that day. But you know, some very interesting things are happening.
And I do like the fact that, as Josh pointed out,
you know, we're gonna wind up. We had to stop

(43:13):
what we're doing with China. Let's focus on China a
little bit, and we got to correct that. It's dangerous.
It's very dangerous. They are the enemy. They're the ones
that want to have our economic power. They're the ones
that have been building up their military. They're the ones
that are aligning themselves with all these incredibly nefarious organizations
and countries and people out there. So you keep an

(43:33):
eye on that. We're gonna see where it takes us
by next week. And then next week we're going to
take another flash you know, flash cam of what we're
doing on made America. So don't go anywhere, see you
then