41. The Best Battle

Here's another of those in depth, well researched, intelligent, discussions about Star Trek.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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very welcome to discuss any aspects ofthe podcast. Please visit simply Syndicated dot
com for more information. Now establishingdata link accessing. Hello and welcome to
Make It So Episode number fourty one. This week, for the second time
in the history of Make It So, your hero, your savior, Jesus

(01:29):
Christ himself in the form of RichardSmith, is not here. Unfortunately,
this is because he's ill really well. I knows Jesus Christ well, James
T. Kirk, I mean metaphoricallyspeak of in terms of in terms of
Simply Syndicated. You know people,people sort of look at him good way.
Yeah, yeah, he was abit of a prick, not rich

(01:51):
Jesus anyway. So less than aminute inter we've already gotten sacrilegious year a.
Yeah, all right, okay thisweek, so yeah, rich ain't
here, but we have two wonderfulindividuals with us instead. Mister Michael Stora,
he who called me a predatory homosexualthe other day. Thanks Mike,
Thanks for your astute observations. Iknow it's the truth, but I don't

(02:14):
need to hear it. And WilliamTristiam. Hello, And I just think
Mike's just a general minser. Excellent. Now that we've established that we can
get on with the proceedings, sobest battle sequence ever in Star Trek history.
We're talking specifically now about space battles, not about ground battles, the

(02:36):
one on one, not the oneon the Yeah, not the phase of
fight, it's not the not thehand to hand combat or I can I
can cite one that certainly, Ithink he's incredibly overrated and certainly wouldn't be
in my best battles. And that'sthe Wrath of Carnbot. I really don't
enjoy the Wrath of Carn battle.I think it's everyone always goes on.

(03:00):
He's using extra dimensions. He's not. He's just going up instead of a
It's he's on the same level,but in a different it's not like using
it three D. All that annoysme. That battle does because she's just
going oh he thinks in two dimensionsand he's just think. But you're not
doing anything any better. You're justabove him talking about the one in the
cloud here? I yeah, yeah, the one in the cloud? Yeah,

(03:21):
what do you call that? Nebula? Indeed, well, that's a
controversial statement. Michael Story Australia ornot. It's not my favorite battles.
I have to say straight away,you are very much aware that you're in
the minority. Yes, I know, I know. I always find it
overrated. Do you remember that particularbattle? Me? Yeah, I do.
Um, Yes, I guess Ido. I think it's because more,

(03:46):
that's what's in my head is thefact that sparksosam are at the end.
It's kind of the overriding factor tome, to the point that I
actually forget that. To me isthe ultimate space battle. The battle to
save your friends and your ship isnot the this is the last time you're
coming. Okay, Yeah, wellit's actually it's it's right. I think

(04:06):
it's a it's a pretty it's apretty good battle, not necessarily because of
the three dimensional stuff. I seeyour point there. See that's it's not
a bad battle. It's not that. It's just I think it's overright,
because that line makes it seem reallyimpressive when it's just above it him.
Really you could do that in itlike intwo planes, whereas in a spaceship

(04:27):
you've got like full three dimensions todo anything with, which you see later
on in Star Trek amit more isthis cloud? Is this cloud affecting?
Then the good thing is basically whenwhen Nicholas Meyer made Star Trek two.
What he wanted to do was adog fight in space, and everyone told
him, you can't do a dogfight in space. It's space, and

(04:49):
quite rightly so, so yeah,the genius of the battle sequence of raffle
Car at the end is the placingof the context, is the location why
quite rightly so, why can't youdo a dog fighting space? But you
can't do a dog fighting space becauseyou've got full sensors and you've got there's
no way to be a case oftwo people pointing at each other, basically,

(05:11):
yeah, like in all the otherbattles in space. So there was
no way to ever sort of doyou know, duck and hide and move
around kind of thing unless you're inan asteroid belt. But the ships are
too big to do that, soyeah, so put it in Starfighters of
course, of course, but we'retalking about the Enterprise and the Reliant.
So yeah, So the only wayof doing a dog fight was to put
it in a nebula, to makeit a battle sequence where they had no

(05:34):
sensors, They have no gauge ofwhere the enemy is. Even the visual
doesn't work properly, and which isa bit ridiculous. How does that affect
a camera? I was never neverquite understood that one. And surely the
ship has windows there is so theircaptain, Yeah, no, it doesn't
work. But anyway, so thatwas the That's the overriding difference between Rath

(05:56):
of Khan and any other Star TrekSpace battle is the fact that they're both
on even even playing, and they'vegot to sort of work on their tactical
ability. Granted, you know thathe thinks three dimensionally. He was up
and down is a bit ship,but the but you can't get everybody on
the The overall battle itself is actuallyquite good, especially for nineteen eighty two.

(06:18):
Yeah, especially two, and itis quite good, though they do
end up absolutely ripped apart both ships. Yeah, just on the last legs
that well, you have the earlierbattle in two as well. You have
the early battle with when they trickEnterprise because obviously it's a Federation ship and

(06:40):
then you know everyone knows this,and then that that sequence as well is
really quite good. And the engineeringgetting decompressed and all look adets dying slowly,
and you know that's that's really good. Um, So you know that's
that's I think Rafa Khan's got acouple of good ones. Search for spark.
Can I stop you? Yeah,for one brief second, go for

(07:01):
it and go back to the actualfirst series, the original series. Yeah,
now, battles in that I remember. Usually it was just a diagonal
flying ship. Yeah, canoe thatwere outside the space ship. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, pretty much.You occasionally saw other ships we didn't rely
on goods looked kind of like likeballs on the end of kind of were

(07:26):
one of the better examples, butthey were better. I mean, the
Romulins were just kind of like abig that was shit. That was it
was just like with an eagle paintedon the boat, with an eagle paint.
We have to rely on excellent actingfrom Oh my god, they're firing
adders moving about. Yeah, that'ssort of scratch that carry on what you

(07:48):
were saying, Yeah, I thinkwe can. We can get rid of
t o ass inistantly and the engine. Now you say search for spock,
when was the first to cling onbirds of prey search for spark search spots?
So that stuck. Even though they'renot necessarily amazing battles is the first

(08:09):
time you see what is effectively oneof the best ships is this where they're
shooting space debris. No, no, that's Star Trek five. Don't no,
that's God. Yeah, and thesatellite that screams for some reason,
I don't know. That goes moreto contributing to the list of reasons why
Star Trek five is the worst StarTrek film. I don't carenot the first
one is the worst. No,it's first. At least Star Trek five

(08:33):
has entertainment value and whales and singingand weird stuff. Four all right,
yeah, yeah, there we gofive. Five is the one with sparks
half brother. Oh yeah, sorry, that travel at the end of the
universe. Yeah, and meet Gardenit's really shit. Yeah. It does
have the amusing bit where who isdoing the dancing though? That's always wanted

(08:54):
to play. Yes, I've doneinto Earth. Yes, five years old
in silhouettes, and then you getclose the nickel shell. Christ, somebody
get that woman a bigger fan.Yes, I would have back in the

(09:16):
day though, sorry the shell.Yes, you would have back in the
back in the sixties. Definitely.Um okay, so yeah, all right,
so yeah there's Star Trek three.You've got a couple of little ones,
little driving It's more it's more skirmishesStar Trek three rather than battles.
You do have the awesome bit workerblows up the enterprise though, with all

(09:37):
the climons on board, which isbrilliant. And again, I actually really
love Star Trek three. I knowhark on about this to all our listeners,
but I actually really enjoy But people, it's an odd numbered one,
so people go, oh, it'san odd numbered tree. True to true,
it's a load of rubbish because Nemesisisn't that good and it's a I
like MESSI nessis some bits look good, some bits look cheesy, and some

(10:01):
bits are badly acted. Start skippingahead there though, We skipping ahead there,
boys. Okay, so four okay, what happens in four four doesn't
have anything? There's whales, okay, that's one of the ways whales.
However, you do kind of getto see the ship up close, which
is quite a good thing as wellseeing a cling on bird of prey up
close. Yes, but there's nobattles, Michael, No, there's no

(10:22):
battles, but nuclear nuclear or whissels. Yeah, there's nuclear whissels. Yeah.
Okay, so we see a shipthat's really nice. Um, it's
a pretty ship. That's pretty,and the whales not fight at all.
No, the whales didn't fight,no bastards. Um, so yeah,
the most action we getting started whales. Four is a Norwegian whaler firing a

(10:45):
bird of cloak bird of prey andhitting it and wondering what happened? Yes,
yes, did it de cloak abovehim? Yeah? Yeah? How
did they explain away that one?How did they? Well, of a
bunch of sailors come back from along voyage and a spaceship, a big
green spaceship. Really did you?Now? That's interesting? Five? Yeah,

(11:11):
nothing going on in five of anyparticular note, apart from Chekov going
what now and in missing the missilesecond, but that's it again, more
skirmish is really now six. Sixhas got a good battle of yeah,
now this is Undiscovered Countries. UndiscoveredCountries is brilliant with the ship that can
fire well cloaked because again yes,yes, this is the first time I

(11:35):
believe in the films anyway where wehad three ships in a battle as well,
because Excelsia turns on and so thisis the first sort of multi ship
battle. Actually, it wasn't justa one on one fight with the Enterprise
and something else. Oh there's athree cling on birds of prey or war

(11:56):
birds that get blown up at thebeginning of Star Trek the motion picture,
but that's that doesn't really count.Yeah, you're pretty bored by then anyway.
Yeah, that's the first scene.It's like, oh, bored already.
Okay, so yeah, Star Trek, Star Trek seven. Now Generations.
It's good because you do see DianaTroy, you know, plowing a

(12:18):
ship into that's Nemesis generation No,no, no, no, into the
ground. I think that looks betterthan a Nemesis. I think it looks
better plowing into the kind of groundand the scale of it next to trees.
That's kind of used model. Thenagain, I know, but I
mean that's just what I mean.Nemesis looks crap because it's cgium. Again

(12:39):
this old argument, why won't youdo models? Why would you Some things
good in CGI? I mean,models in Transformers were never going to be
as good as the Transformer films.This is true. But now we're getting
to the point where CGI is actuallyphotos still with something like Star Star Trek,
though it's got a certain because italways was model, there's a certain

(13:01):
durability about the ships, which Ithink would still be better with models to
the same argument goes with Star Wars, isn't it. Yeah, Yeah,
definitely, it's definitely. I mean, and to be fair, Star Wars
as well shows it because they dolook a lot more flimsy nowadays than they
did, even though they were abit kind of hobbled together back in the
Empire days. In the first three, yeah, well the second three in

(13:22):
the first yeah, Or the prequelsare the sequels? Yeah, try saying
that three times fast. Prequel sequel? Prequel? Prequels are the sequels?
Mean? Prequel? Are the sequelsof the prequels? Are the sequels?
Nice? Anyway? Sequel again?So so yeah, Generation Yeah, Generations
was was pretty good. Hardly abattle, but it wasn't you. It

(13:43):
was a battle like Riker blows upthe Lurser in Beta and he gets to
Saint Fire and it's actually the coolestfire ever uttered in Star Trek, which
is annoying that it goes to Riker, but hey, I'd rather Cisco had
it. But Cisco was always thosetwo happy He sometimes sometimes he did it
really quiet and then other times hewas like sometimes and agree at the moment

(14:13):
and then he passes out. Helikes his hand acting to Za, he
is hamming. We love then welove him. Maybe it goes with the
territory of being a captain. Okay, that a little bit more in your
pants. Okay, Now we're ontoone of the big in terms of films,

(14:33):
the big, one of the best. But oh so short First Contact
Contact. But it doesn't feel shortbecause it's so exciting. It does feel
short. It doesn't remember you wantseat all the way through. It's a
really a lot short. It's reallyquite sure. I always thought, like,
especially from the trailer for First Contact, I thought that was going to
be the end sequence. So imaginemy s the first one is infinite.

(14:56):
When it was ably yeah yeah.When it just turns up at the very
start of the film and it's liketen minutes long, it's like, oh,
all right, great, that didn'tlast long. You blew at the
borg cube, well done, Okay, pretty got the first time sphere that,
Yeah, yeah, that's the firstborg sphere incidents. I kind of
I never really got that because it'sstill a pretty logical shape. Yeah,

(15:18):
but it's not that it's like thebags were always cubes kind of borg cube.
You need to do something different.I suppose you're right. Yeah,
it's just like a mini escape podas well in it. Yeah, the
borg Dodecahedron. So so in themovies, this is the first big multi
ship battle. We have at leastfifty ships in this battle of like flying

(15:39):
around shooting, and it's really youknow, that's a that was actually probably
one of the Now then, no, it won't have been the first big
multi ship battle we've seen in StarTrek, but it is certainly one of
the first. The first one Ibelieve would have been in the Diars cast
and improbable cause in deep space,but we'll get onto that. When was

(16:02):
when was oh the cuts of Boorg? When was best of both all best
of both worlds? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, of course
it will have been emissary in thesplace nine when we actually see War three
five nine been the first one,the first one a few ships attacking the
board cube. Yeah. Um,so yeah, that was a ship hot

(16:22):
bottle. That was a really goodone. That was a really just one
too short. Um insurrection, Now, insurrection had a bit of a bit
of a guff bottle thing. Wasit a big gouf? Well, who
the fuck of the son art andwhy do we care? Yes, and
yeah and all of this stuff.It's suddenly this alien ship which can beat
up on the Enterprise and like,really, why have we never heard of

(16:45):
these guys? Are they from adifferent quadram? No? Well, what
the fuck are well? You know, and you just sort of think the
business fair boy. Although it doeshave Jordi objective in the core and blowing
them all up, so that wasquite good. But again it does had
that cool bit at the end wherethe Enterprise flies up through the through the

(17:07):
thing and beams Picard. Remember he'sinside that being so look kind of Ray
Collector with with your man from Jumanji. So sh but that is cool when
it's coming up and the fires behindhim and yeah, and favorite Murray's or
whatever his name is gets you killedmore as that. Um yeah, I

(17:29):
kill a lot of people. Umso yeah, so insurrections a bit now
Nemesis. So you don't like Nemesis? No, No, I didn't say
that at all. Okay, Ijust don't think, say, I think
something like starts Trek three is better. Okay, do you know what I
mean? I don't think it's abad film. It's it's certainly better than
a lot of them. I mean, the battle in the Battle the Nemesis
is quite good. I like thenew Romlin ships as well. They're not

(17:56):
they the first time you've seen those. Yeah, I didn't like them too
much. They were they were abit clingy, but they know. But
but then they will have other smallstuff because the Romunan Warbird's massive. Yes,
but why if there's this massive,huge scimitar threat to the entire quadrant
that's going to really I don't know. They might have had their ships off
in different places. There ma onlythe home Guard that the main the Home

(18:19):
Guard. It's the Romulan Star Empire. It's all a bunch of knackered old
men. Yeah, the Dad's ArmyRomulan style. Okay, right, Well,
the main problem that I have withwith the Nemesis was there's a couple
of problem. I like that.I love the battle that Nemesis. I

(18:40):
think it's really it's one of thebest battles. It's one of the longest
battleship. I think they've gone overthe top a bit on it, you
know. I like the ship.It does look good, but it also
looks a bit kind of too muchshit. It's a bit kind of like
see how much we can do withthe ship, And I didn't mind that
it fits the alien race though itdoes. It does. Yeah, but
it's it's it's as well, it'sit's one of the longest battles. They're

(19:03):
uncomfortable fitting jackets. Yeah, whatthe fuck, they're not getting onto the
actual riemans themselves. But the actualbattle itself is one of the most prolonged
battles in Star Trek. I thinkit's actually the longest one, if I'm
not mistaken. It's it's really it'sno, it's because it's because you get
a lot of what's going on.Conversation was buy like along a couple of

(19:26):
conversation scenes, but they're certainly inthe films. It's the longest one,
and I think it might be inthe whole franchise because it's the last forty
minutes of the film, from thestart of the battle to the end of
the film. Is the last fortyminutes, last hour. I would as
well, I'd quite happily sit throughthat, But I mean not everyone's as
interested in battles as the boys.So yeah, so the film, So

(19:48):
that's the films basically of the filmsI between Nemesis and Raphakan for me,
for the battles, well, no, for me, it's got to be
the beginning of first contact. Itmight be short. You've got lots of
ships. Okay, well we're goingonto the more molt and again business later
and anything anything with what they calledclingon bird of Prey that's pretty good,

(20:12):
you know, and anything with themcoming in looking up close. They were
a pretty good looking ship. Butthis is true, This is true.
Okay, so next generation. Now, throughout the next generation we have you
know, the odd skirmish here andthere, and when can you think of
the first big battle? Not reallymany big battles in them. In the
Next Gender series. There's the onein Best of Both Worlds when they take

(20:36):
back Captain Picard. That's very good. Then you see, I'm I'm struggling
to think of other big battle sequences, really, I mean, there's any
battle sequence rather than being big,well, any battle sequence. There's not
really that many in Star Trek NextGend because they didn't have the budget for
it at the time, and becausethe model work was restricted and everything,

(20:57):
and a lot of a of it'smore story based than anything else. But
so there was the best of bothworlds one and then there's like a couple
of ones with the Romulans. ButI mean it all just sort of made
you get some good look again justtalking about the looks of the ships,
but you do get a good lookat some good ships. In next Gen,

(21:18):
you do a lot more you know, romul war birds up. Not
really what we're talking ship is quitecool as well, No, not really
what we're talking about, but Iknow you're not fighting all the time.
Yeah, but I mean the actualbattle sequences themselves generally consist of two ships
sitting and firing at the Enterprise.You know, it's only a step,
a little step above what we hadin the original series really, apart from
all good things, which has quitea good battle sequence with the Future Enterprise

(21:44):
plowing into the US. Yeah,the three warpner cells and everything, and
so that that was that's pretty good. But the next gen the series itself,
not really that much going on inthe battle sort of territory. It's
more standoffs and you know, thingslike that, the threat of battle,
the threat of battle, and youknow, the politics of it and everything
and the meaning and the philosophy behindit, and often if the big battle

(22:08):
does occur, we don't really seeit, like Wolf three five nine up
until Deep Space nine, which ifwe're talking about space battles, we've got
to go here because these guys hadit down to a team. We just
watched an eight minute montage which hasbeen posted on the Make It So Far
Them and you can see it underfavorite Trek Battle Seen, very dramatic,

(22:32):
epic, lots and lots of shipsflying around, no one remembers to use
their shields, and lots of explosion. Didn't really in space and stuff like
that. But it's brilliant. It'sstill good. It's all good. Yeah,
yeah, no, we're well.Our first one, in fact,
is the very first scene of DeepSpace nine sort of sets the tone for

(22:56):
what we're looking at. We actuallysee Wall three five nine and that wonderful
shot where the scape pod plows outof the Cisco's ship and Cisco just sits
there and he's not looking, andthen the ship explodes behind him. Big
Pipes just following his wife. Yeahwhat big Pipe has and he no here,
old man? Yeah that's not daks, say, Is Cisco one of

(23:22):
Cisco's many friends? Yeah? Okay, So yeah, we've got yeah,
that one, which is a goodone. Then the big first one which
we've had. We had a littlecouple of little skirmishes with the Marquee and
with the Runabouts flying around WHI rulesa bit nah yeah, yeah, And
then we had the first battle withthe Gemodar when the Gemedar ship rams into

(23:45):
the Odyssey and blows up a Galaxyclass starship and we've never seen anything.
I don't remember that one. That'sseries that's the end of series two skipped.
Yeah, but no falls to myown people. Yeah, I'm going
to make him watch it, don'tworry. Um. So yeah, that
was a really good one. Andthen we have the first big battle was

(24:07):
in the diares cast and in ProbableCause, when the Obsidian Order and the
Taoishiard joined forces brilliant and go toeradicate the Dominion home world, only to
find it's a massive trap and onehundred and fifty Geminar ships are waiting for
them in a nearby nebula is goodand they all get blown up by like
four people. So yeah, thatwas good, and they define plowing through

(24:30):
all the ships and one of thehits most we watched most of the stuff
from that from a Romulan warbird,don't it's yeah, it's from the Murup
Garrick's mentor. That's Paul Dooley sayhis name, Yeah, that's the one.
Um. Well remember how did youremember that? Because I recognized him

(24:51):
because the film is in which Ilove called Strange Brew, and I was
like, I know that face andvoice. He also plays the train conductor
in episode of the Next Gen wherethey're on the Orient Express, one of
the weaker Next Gen episodes season seven, I believe awful little bit with the
reaching for stuff from the go Hollowsuite. Yeah, he's got the voice

(25:14):
though, that guy, he's gota very distinctive voice. Actually, now
you mentioned it, okay? Um. And then of course where are the
Wire which has the first big deepspace nine surrounded by ship's battle, which
we would see him looking forward to. We'll have a running theme of these
throughout the seasons. There's you know, there's ones lazy on in season five
and season six. It's always goodand no one ever wins, no one

(25:37):
ever beats them, apart from atthe end of season five when they all
chip flee. But that's because heneeds he'll be back. He'll be back.
He's left his baseball. So yeah, the battle sequence at the end
of season five is immense. Wealso have a battle sequence it's the start
of season six where they take backto each space and they've got to get

(26:00):
through a massive I mean all allthese as well, are all tempered with
the bits before the battles where yousee the arrival of ships. Now they're
playing and the Romulans and they justsuddenly appears these vast fleets of ships next
to the station, dwarfing the station, and you just think, yeah,
that looks so clever, so cool, that's what they're doing. So yeah,

(26:22):
there's the big the big battle atthe end of season at the start
of season six where they take backtingSpace nine. Then there's another one at
the end of season six when they'retaking the Chin Carter system and plowing through
planetary defense systems and that's awesome.There's a big sequence in season seven when
the defince is blown up, whichis really good. And then there's the

(26:45):
final big battle and what you leavebehind, which is also immense, and
probably it really does. That's thebest one they left the best all last
they did. It's definitely it's ashame about the kind of slow ending afterwards,
because yeah, it certainly isn't thebattle that cripples it. I mean,
the ending is not bad. It'sjust a case that after you've been

(27:07):
so excited for the first half ofthe episode. The first Yeah, the
first part was brilliant, and thenthe second part like kind of subdues her.
But and it's back to the Beijorand everything. But it's all right
because you still had a big battle. Yeah. So, but originally they
were saying they planned to do threemajor set pieces and that they in that
episode they want to do three bigbattles, but they just ran out of
money, unfortunately, which is ashame, very big shame. But hey,

(27:33):
but yeah, that was the bestone. I did leave until the
last, which is always good.I won't want to ruin that one for
you there. Well, so wewon't go into details or what actually occurs.
Can you kindly say Voyager now Voyagerlimited because it's one ship, so
you can't have massive, massive fleetslike you can in the others, but

(27:56):
you do get the benefit of obviouslynot it's out there lots of what were
those tribal kind of groups Kason,Yeah, well you had, I mean
anything, I recall Voyager flying inand around ball cubes and yeah, I
want to say, you do getto see fleets to Bourg. Yeah,
what kind of ship is Voyage?Isn't like it was more of an exploration

(28:18):
or yeah, yeah it was heavilyarmed or was it? No, it
was a speedy ship. It wasa fast ship, because then it's it's
going to be more evasion and cunningrather than straight out balls to the wall.
Well, you hoped, but alot of the time it will straight
out balls to the wall, whichis a mean janeway looks and sounds like
it has balls. Maybe a cheesegrater on the balls. I don't know

(28:41):
one of the two. I wouldkeep referring to her as the cheese greater
because it sounds like that. Ithought we werefering to the grew and the
grew from that's your reference, isn'tit. I'm sure it's Mull grew in
it. Mull grew, the grewthe grew. Yeah, so so Voyage.
I couldn't really say, to behonest, I don't nothing. There's

(29:03):
the Big Ones with the Bog andthe other spee season one, three,
seven, nine five, and therewas a kind of strange kind of CG
aliens just a bit shit. Yeah, but they you know they was.
Yeah, that was a bit annoyingactually as a space battles go, it
was because it was cheap CGI.I mean, they can't do a kind
of organic model, so you know, an organic model very easily. But

(29:26):
it looked more like a babbel Onfive battle. It did, It did
very much. So Babylon five wasn'tit just a bunch of bubber we Right
now, if you get rid ofthe script, the kind of the actual
words of the first few seasons thandialogue and the dialogue and the actual thing,
it's overall stories amazing. It's justthey say things like frag and yeah,

(29:49):
brag and yeah really just never goingto be Star Trek and it wants
to be. Remember, Babylon fivewas I think I remember saying to you
when we were watching it again,like because bought them one. I bought
them one on DVD and everything justwatching through them and the first season is
pretty shit, And then I wasthinking it gets better in the second season,
but then you started watching the secondseason and it gets so much worse

(30:11):
for about ten episodes, and thenit gets back again. It's a step
above space precinct for God's seasons.Step the story about Honestly, like Mike
says, the story of Battle onBattle on Battle on five is is very
very good. It's just as yeah, Gov Cgi and I think you were

(30:36):
saying this when we were watching itagain that the last two seasons were a
bit. It was the last twoand last one. That was last one
bit tagged on the kind of Earth. No, no, no, that
was that was good. That wasseason four. The season five is the
Psychic War, which is I don'ttell you watch that. It's poor,
it's poor. But season one,Season three to four is three and four

(30:57):
both two, both of them reallygood. Two and two and one are
a bit guff and five is abit guff. But yeah, season three
and five four bab on five withWicked. Anyway, off topic, never
mind Enterprise. Now Enterprise had afew big battles with the Zindie, the

(31:18):
Zindie out by the next generation.I don't know, you never hear of
them again. You didn't really seeany battles with a Sulu man because they
were no they Suan Sullivan suler Ban. Yeah, Suliman's a name in it.
Yeah, it's a surname. Well, they kind of written them,
wrote them out pretty pretty quickly.What they did have, though, were
good land based battles for once,they'd only just like in Enterprise, basically

(31:44):
got the whole hand to hand fightingthing down and like shooting people properly with
guns and stuff, because it wasn'tall, you know, two armed hits
and you know, really it startedto look a lot more realistic in Enterprise,
the actual man to man battle becausethey had that little troops cadre of
troops on the on the ship withthem. Yeah yeah, yeah, the

(32:06):
makos yeah yeah, which that thatlooked a lot better. Yeah, but
that's about it. I mean,the problem with Enterprise again goes back to
the problem with Voyager in terms ofyour big battles, is the fact that
there's a small ship. They didn'thave phases. Did occasionally have them to
you, they could fire that theywere talking about will hold it back.

(32:30):
But they did occasionally show other Enterprisekind of class ships whatever class they're called.
They don't know what they are,but they did show more than one
at one point. Yeah, therewas go back to but they weren't pretty
warp ships. They didn't have awarp drive. They were just stuck in
the system. You sure they didn'tshow a second time towards the end of
the second warp ship came into playin season four, So the Enterprise they

(32:55):
were on wasn't a warp ship.No, the own Enterprise was the only
warps right in the first three seasonsof Enterprise, and then there was another
one that came about in season four, but I think I was, yeah,
it was the only one in thatof the only earth ship, which
kind of you know, it's againit's putting it against the odds and everything.
And I think with the big battlesequences in terms of the series,

(33:17):
they'd done it with Deep Space nine, you know, I mean not to
say that the ideas shouldn't do itsome more, which they should. Yeah,
there's not not to say that theideas just completely exhausted. Of course,
so I could think of twenty ideasabout sequences right now, and I
know you can. So it's like, I'm sure the writers of Star Trek
could if they wanted to, butI think they just sort of felt after

(33:38):
Deep Space Nine that you know,that was toned it down a little.
Yeah, tone it down a littlebit because we'd had these huge monumental battles
and how you you know, andthen you'd have to top it every time,
every time you've got to top it. Are we're going to get another
film another chance? We're getting numbereleven? Yeah, we get eleven prequel
of course, Young Kirk and youngSpark. Yeah. Have you not heard

(34:01):
about this? No? No,it isn't the guy from Transformers in it.
By rumors about that at the moment. I wouldn't mind him as a
McCoy. I believe the only onesthey've cut from the moment by the time
a young Kirk got into because hewas quite a bit older. DeFi is
Kelly and get him. I wasthinking reanimates his ashes. No, the

(34:29):
I think they've they've cast Spark andthey've cast check Off so far, but
they haven't cast any of the otherones yet. Um. Yeah, So
I wonder if you like people likeShatton, we're going to make any cameos
or anything like that. Um.I think Spock is and I think learning
Nimoy is. I think the wholething we were saying O a week could
be nice if the whole thing wassort of told as a flashback spot flashback.

(34:52):
Um, you think that sounds likea nice idea, better than it
just being a prequel. I don'tknow, he's still sounding like a bad
kind of filler episod. It doessound bad, Don't get me wrong,
it does sound bad. But we'vecome to the conclusion that there's plenty of
time to slug it off in thefuture after you've watched it, so trying
not to slag it off before wewatch it. Um, it would be

(35:13):
cool if they showed a lot moreof the whole cling on wards thing.
Yeah, that would be That's that'swhat they should do. That's what they
should do. Actually, now youmentioned it a big bad, nasty cling
ons, and yeah, nasty clingons again, not these friendly, cuddly
cling ons and you haven't cuddly.Yeah, you know, they're kind of
like, oh, we're nasty andwe're hard, back to the old hair
metal cling ons. But you justmake a couple of motley crude run,

(35:37):
a couple of cutting remarks and youback down a bit. Oh, I
don't know these guys good insults foryou know, it might be beatment a
fire, but these humans they knowhow to cut you anyway. So we've
we've we've discussed all the battles then, so what what would you say is

(35:58):
your favorite battle? Is it yourone on one dog fight battles or is
it your space ships as possible,as many ships as possibly huge? And
yeah, it's powerful, and that'sone of the reasons why Star Wars can
edge ahead, because they do dothe many ships thing, which is one
of the reasons why I like toyou know, I like the one at
the end of Deep Space nine basicallybecause it's just all in. Yeah,

(36:22):
it is one of the beginning's good, but it is too short. I
think the rest of the episode isnot that interesting. It's it's not bad,
but it's not as good as thebattle. Not to play fence boy.
But I'm quite happy with either ofthem. Really. I'm quite happy
watching the Battle the Rough of Caras much as I am at the Battle
of What You leave behind at theend of Deep Space nine. Quite comfortable

(36:44):
watching both of them, I suppose, really in terms of we're just talking
about sheer spectacle here, I meanthere's the larger sort of context of the
battle, which is always important tohow much you care about the actual battle
itself. I like that as well. The backstory yeah, the background of
what's actually going on and the consequencesof directly, in which case Rafa Khan
is a very good one for thatis the so is the one at the

(37:07):
end of So is the one atthe end of and in fact that the
one the Battle of Wolfe as well. Yeah, but yeah, again with
something like this is really bad forme to say as well. But with
something like the battle in First Contactbecause it's big screen, you've got a
better quality in front of you,and you've got the other ships. Why

(37:28):
is that bad to say? Well, I don't know, because you want
to kind of look through that andthink, o, chact, oh look
at the word did that? Butyeah, no, it just looks a
bit lusher, and you know,and again because I thought Nemesis was a
bit over the top on that andit is broken apart. It doesn't come
up there as high as say,as I say, First Contact battle,

(37:50):
then probably Wolf three five nine.Then the one at the end of the
thing is Nemesis could have This isthe thing I was going to say earlier.
Nemesis could have been a perfect butor in some respects because what they
had the potential to do if they'dhad a bit of balls about them.
They could have done a sort ofyou know, because that's probably an all
likelihood the last next Gen film we'regoing to get, and if they'd had

(38:12):
some balls about them, they couldhave really made that the last next Gen
film. And you know, ratherthan sort of give it this half,
well, we might have a suquelending, but never mind, Paramount doesn't
have any balls when it comes tokilling franchises, and fair enough, it's
a big cash cow. I'd probablyhave difficulty making that decision myself. The
battle itself, though, is asort of like, you know, because

(38:34):
you have the Enterprise, the Simitar, and then you have like two or
three Romulan warbirds that turn up andeverything, so you have the one on
one sort of fighting. But whatI really wanted to see was the Simitar
plowing through as many Romulan warbirds aspossible, like hundreds of them, just
annihilating them one after the other.The Federation task Force arriving and annihilating all

(38:55):
of them, and the Enterprise isjust surviving by the skin of its chief
and you know, and destroying itin the way it does in the film.
Then that would have been a perfecta one on one b big,
big spont called battle and that wouldhave been amazing. But never mind.
I live in hope that maybe Iwill be living through this again in another
life. And and again another problemwith maybe in a parallel universe. The

(39:17):
writers did that. Yeah, ina cloak in a cloak ship, you
have a certain element of limitation.Yeah, it can look really good if
it's done right. But at thesame time with if there's a massive battle
with lots of cloak ships, thatcould be quite interesting. But the whole
just one cloak ship that you're fightingand it's all where is it can get
boring. From a visual perspective,it was. It was good in the

(39:39):
Undiscovered Country, especially the money shotwhen the torpedo you see the torpedo flying
up from beneath the Enterprise and goingright through the sourcer section. That's particularly
I remember in the cinema in nineteenninety one, and everyone in the cinema
did as well. It was good. Good lord, that was loud.
It wasn't e see it on theread out there as well. Okay,

(40:01):
so we've all done with the bigbattles. Yeah, okay, all right,
So for those of you who havemissed Jesus Christ slash Richard Smith.
He's gonna love that I've done that. He'll be back next week hopefully if
he's feeling You noticed what's actually wrongwith him? I don't know. He's
poorly. I don't appet to straininjury. Yeah, I'm glad you said

(40:22):
it anyway, So yeah, youcan. You can email him at Richard
Smith at simply Syndicated dot com andwish him all the best and tell him
to get better and you know,and everything like that if you if you
feel like it, you know,I'm sure you'd appreciate it, or insults,
or or you could just send theminsults that would be more appreciated by
everyone else. I think that's true. It depends on who you want to

(40:44):
please, really, Yeah, whodo you want to please? Everyone else?
Or Richard? Everyone else? Infact, I think even Alison would
enjoy the insults probably, really.I think it's really it's a win win
situation for pretty much everyone's rich.Okay, so we have other shows that
you can listen to. It's gettingto the point now where we really can't
list them anymo. But there's adefinitive word with mister William Tristan Yo.
I just tapped. Well, youdidn't see that. It was a manly

(41:05):
tap. It was a big one. It was almost a caress. It
was almost a caress. Where wego through the various fascests of twenty first
century living on a weekly basis andtalk about such topics as top ten cartoon
ladies and guns and why people shouldn'thave them. Also, we have Michael
Story, who is on the wonderfulshow Albums you should Hear from our nouns
you should verb line and it's agood show. And each week, as

(41:32):
you probably guess, they go throughan album that you should hear and you
can listen to that on Sunday nights. And there's a load of other shows
that you already know about them,so listen to them. Get on the
forums, talk to us about StarTrek. We've been loving your comments about
the Star Trek merchandise you'd been buyingover the years. It's very geeky.
You're all bad people, so yeah, keep keep carry on, send them

(41:54):
in. It's it's good fun.We're going to do a Merchandise Part two
and talk about all of them atsome point in the future. Anyway,
so I've been my Dawson. I'vebeen Michael Stora, and I've been Will
Tristram. And we will see younext week. Bye the fishing