In this episode, Paul was asked a question about wide spread confusion over the last sentence in 680.26(B)(6)(a) regarding the use of a double insulated water pump motor for pool applications in Article 680 Part II. What do you do with that 8 AWG CU Solid Bonding Jumper when you take it to the pool pump motor and find out it is a special double insulated system motor. Well, we have the answer for you on this episode so enjoy.
Listen as Paul Abernathy, CEO, and Founder of Electrical Code Academy, Inc., the leading electrical educator in the country, discusses electrical code, electrical trade, and electrical business-related topics to help electricians maximize their knowledge and industry investment.
If you are looking to learn more about the National Electrical Code, for electrical exam preparation, or to better your knowledge of the NEC then visit https://fasttraxsystem.com for all the electrical code training you will ever need by the leading electrical educator in the country with the best NEC learning program on the planet.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/master-the-nec-podcast--1083733/support.
Listen as Paul Abernathy, CEO, and Founder of Electrical Code Academy, Inc., the leading electrical educator in the country, discusses electrical code, electrical trade, and electrical business-related topics to help electricians maximize their knowledge and industry investment.
If you are looking to learn more about the National Electrical Code, for electrical exam preparation, or to better your knowledge of the NEC then visit https://fasttraxsystem.com for all the electrical code training you will ever need by the leading electrical educator in the country with the best NEC learning program on the planet.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/master-the-nec-podcast--1083733/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
What Up? What Up?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Everybody?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast
where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you
want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
All you got to do is go to Paul Abernathy
dot com and just submit it. Dude, it gets in
the list.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'll either answer it in an email or you might
be selected for a podcast like today. So today's question
that came in was submitted, and of course this week
on Coffee Hour. If you're not following us on Coffee Hour,
we do that every morning at eight am Eastern Time.
You can watch from our mobile app. You can watch
it from LinkedIn, you can watch it from Facebook, you
(01:12):
can watch it from fast tracks Tube.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
There's many ways that you.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Can watch Coffee Hour in the morning. And of course
this past week we've been talking about swimming pools and
I've been answering all kinds of topics on that, doing
little presentations on it, trying to spill out as much
as I can in these Coffee Hours, which ultimately end
up being multiple hours. Okay, so a lot of info,
and they're also replayed every day at five pm in
(01:39):
case you can't make the morning show. And I'm always
giving little tidbits of information and coming up on June second,
unless whenever you're listening to this podcast that coffee hour,
we're gonna be digging into the equatential bonding grid around
a swimming pool.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So we're gonna be talking.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
About that, and obviously that's get deep into that subject.
That's six' eighty dot twenty six. And but I did
have a question that came in. It came in today
and I wanted to address this question. It was sent
to me Darlene forwarded on to me, and so I'm
gonna read the question and it's based on the question
is asking about the twenty twenty edition of the National
(02:18):
Electrical Code. But I'm going to answer it in the
twenty twenty three because the portion that they ask about
doesn't change. Okay, So it's exactly the same whether it's
the twenty twenty or the twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, exactly the same. So that's why I want to.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Address it and using the twenty twenty three rather than
go back to the twenty twenty. But I do encourage you,
like this gentleman did when you're sending me a question
if it's specific or something in it is specific to
the twenty twenty for example, and I'm teaching twenty twenty three.
If it's not the same, then I will go back
and use the code cycle that you request. But in
(02:55):
this case, I can do it in the twenty twenty
three as a complete podcast lesson and talk about some
of the changes and still cover the intent of what
the person that's sent in the question still wants to know.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Okay, So that's why I'm doing it. So I'm going
to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So I'm going to read this and I'm going to
try to address it here and hopefully I can get
to this. It doesn't take too long, all right. So
he says it's based on the twenty twenty NEEC. Again,
I'm using twenty twenty three, but the code cycle didn't change,
I mean, as far as the code section didn't change.
It says six to eighty dot twenty six B six A.
It says, I do not understand the intent or the
(03:33):
specific action required by the second sentence. Okay, So there's
second sentence in six eighty dot twenty six B six
A that this gentleman's not understanding. So you're listening to
a podcast, you can pause. Go get your codebook, open
it up, go to six eighty dot twenty six B
six A, and look at the second sentence, because that's
(03:54):
what he's asking about.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It goes on to give us a quote here.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It says, where there is no connection between the swimming
pool equipment excuse me, swimming pool eco potential bonding means okay,
that be the grid and the equipment grounding system of
the premise.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
That would be things like equipment.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Grounding conductors, the grounding electrode system, and all that kind
of stuff for the premise.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So it says where there's no connection between the two, okay,
it says this bonding conductor shall be connected to the
equipment ground and conductor of the motor circuit.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Okay. So that's the part that he's asking about.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And that is you know exactly how it's written in
the twenty twenty three edition of the National Electrical Code
as well. Okay, all right, so we're gonna dig into
this little little more. So this one is specific for
when it is using a double insulated water pump motor.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So you have double insulated and you have the standard
pool water pump motors that are non double incis, the
very standard ones that we see most of the time.
But they do make double insulated water pump motors, and
it will say that clearly on the motor itself. It'll
be listed for that because it's listed equipment because it
(05:13):
incorporates an approved double insulation system.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And if that's the case, you typically don't bond those motors, right,
You're not gonna bond the motor, not required to bond
it because it's part of an approved double insulation system.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
And it also typically doesn't have an equipment ground and
conductor incorporated into the pump itself because of that double
insulation system.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Okay. So anyway, that's what it's reading.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Now, I'm gonna finish what he read he wrote to me,
and then I will elaborate on that sentence and try
to break it down for you. He also says the
first sentence in this requirement of a says, appears to
me that a bonding conductor and that is from the
equatential bonding grid, should be made available at the location
(06:01):
of the double insulated pump. That's correct. Without a bonding point,
that's correct. Because it's a double insulated system. It says,
in the event a future replacement pump that wasn't double
insulated could have access to that bonding conductor that would
connect it to the equipotential bonding grid, because it is
(06:23):
required to be connected to the equipotential bonding grid the
pull pump motor. Okay, typically it's in intimate with the
water circulation and all that type of stuff. Okay, all right,
and it says all my internet searches have proved to me.
There's a lot of other confused others confused by these
(06:44):
two sentences. Appreciate some clarification. Okay, So we're gonna address
this and kind of unroll it all. I will remind
you the gentlemen. I did email the gentleman. I did
give him an answer, which is gonna kind of be
on par with what we talk about in this episode.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But I did already. I don't always do that.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
A lot of times, I'll just do a podcast and
I'll say, hey, make sure you catch the podcast.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Or something like that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
But I did respond to him, and the gentleman actually
thought of asking me the question because he saw over
on Facebook where I posted something and said Hey, if
y'all got topics that you want me to talk about
on upcoming coffee hours, go ahead and post them. And
so that's still there, folks, if you want to If
there's things that you want me to talk about in
(07:28):
the mornings, coffee hour Monday through Friday eight am eight
am Eastern time. Sometimes it's multiple hours because I get rolling,
I don't want to stop.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Okay, that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
And so if that's the case, you want me to
talk about something, folks, that's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It's yes, I sell courses. Yes I have to make
a living, but I do love answering your questions and
even my haters out there. I got a lot of
haters out there for some reason. I don't know where
they they all came from, but everybody's got them, but
they seem to The funny thing I get about it
is they still watch my stuff. So so at the
end of the day, I guess I'm the one that
gets the.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Last laugh in all that scenario, right, But.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I Hey, haters are welcome, you know, feel free. I'm
gonna teach you something too. Don't worry even though you're
a hater. I'm gonna teach you something, all right, So
let's unpack this thing. So six eighty twenty six B
six is talking about electrical equipment, and basically it says
the metal parts of the following electrical equipment shall be bonded. Okay,
(08:30):
so that is kind of new language to the twenty
twenty three. But basically what it's saying is, you have
electrical equipment. This electrical equipment is going to be located
within five foot measured horizontally from the inside wall to
the pool. Okay, unless there's some kind of permanent barrier
that separates it. So if there isn't so measuring horizontally anything,
(08:51):
any electrical equipment that is gonna be within five feet
measured horizontally from the inside wall to the pool, or
where it is twelve feet measured vertically above the maximum
water level. And remember maximum is where the water will
flow out of the system, not normal water level, which
is the low point of the skimmer, because the skimmer
(09:12):
is going to keep it from you.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's the normal water level.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Maximum water level is what would it be if it
overflowed out of the pool.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Okay, So we have these rules and it also says
twelve feet measured vertically, also measured above observation stands, towers,
or platforms or other diving structures.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay, So it's just.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Making it clear what electrical equipment has to be bonded
to the equipotential bonding grid.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
That's all this is doing. Okay. And it also says
electrically powered pool covers. Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
It also says pool water circulation treatment, heating, cooling, or
de humidification equipment. All of this equipment, it's got to
be bonded to the equotential bonding grid. Now, of course,
all of these, by the way, are probably going to
you have an equipment grounding conductor run with the brand
circuit that's running to this equipment. So it's got an
(10:07):
equipment ground a conductor for the actual piece of equipment. Okay,
that's going to be important thing to remember here in
a minute. Okay, all right, so all these things have
to be bonded to the equotential bonding grid.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay. Now there is an exception here that says, you know, what, metal.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Parts of listed equipment incorporating an improved system of double
insulation shall not be bonded because there's nowhere to bond
to it, there's nothing to do to it. It's basically
a double insulated system. It's marked as such in most
all of these unequipment grounds, not necessarily due to the
nature of the system. But if you're running a branch
(10:48):
circuit to where this pump would be or where this
double insulated piece of equipment is, then you're probably going
to run a brand circuit that does have an equipment ground. Anyway,
because it's an electrician, you don't maybe know what kind
of damn pump the pool guy's gonna supply, and you're
so familiar with.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
The normal pump, and a normal pump for.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
The water is probably gonna have a lug on the frame,
and that's what you typically would take your eight gauge
from your ecopotential bonding grid, run it over to it,
put it on that lug, and then of course you
have the equipment ground that comes with the brand circuit
that's gonna go to the motor, so inside of that
motor or when that equipment ground on a normal motor
(11:27):
makes a connection to the ground terminal point on that
motor and bonds the metal frame to that equipment ground.
In case there's a fault condition when you bring the
ecopotential bonding grid wire jumper over from the grid to
that pump and to that lug. They are intimate. They
are connected together indirectly through the piece of equipment. Okay,
(11:51):
So that takes place, So the ecopotential bonding grid is
indirectly connected to the premise equipment grounding system through that
piece of equipment.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Okay, do that makes sense? Right? So they're intimate, right,
That's important things to remember. Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Now, when if I have a pool that I have
other things around it, okay, that are in proximity that
I need to bond anything that's metal. For example, I
might have a situation where I've got to bond things
all around the pool.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I might have a situation where I have some I
don't know, gosh, I might have a fence, a metal fence, okay,
a metal component Okay, may have that.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I might have What else could I have?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I mean, I could have other things that are within
a certain distance right of it, Okay, that I need
to actually bond to, maybe fixed metal parts, right if
they're within five foot horizontally in side wall of the pool,
metal fences, metal doors, metal window frames, all those type
of metal awnings, okay, metal piping, all that type of
(13:09):
stuff has to be connected to the equiotential bonding system.
But none of those things I just mentioned to have
anything to do with power, right, But a piece of
equipment that has a branch circuit running to it, has
circuit conductors, has an equipment ground, okay, and of course
you need to bond to that, to the equatential binding grid.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
For example, a pool pump motor. Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
All right, So getting back to this, so if you
look at six eighty twenty six B six', a it's
talking specifically about a double insulated water pump. Motor, Okay
and this is really what the cruxt of this, Question
this gentleman's asking this. One this two sentences in this
(13:56):
thing can be confusing for, people and so we're gonna
we're gonna unconfuse it right, now you, ready all, Right
i'm gonna read it from its, entirety and THEN i
will remember everything THAT i just, said and you'll show
and it'll it'll be, clear is crystal AFTER i say
it this?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Way right? Now it says for double insulated water pump. Motor.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Okay, Again typically you're not gonna bond these because it
is a double insulated. System it's marked on it as,
such so you're not gonna bond. It, however it, says
if your pool folks choose to use a double insulated
order pump, motor, okay that's. Choice there's non double insulated
and there's double. Insulated it, says where a double insulated
(14:37):
water pump motor is installed under the provisions of this,
rule and we're talking about this rule, here where it
would require to have the eight gauge run over to
it from the equatential bonding. Grid it, says a solid
eight awg copper only, copper, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Not the other types of materials out.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
There it's, copperalid not stranded solid solid eight awg copper
conductor of sufficient length to make a bonding connection to
a replacement motor shall be extended from the swimming. Pools
equipotential bonding means to an accept accessible point in the
(15:20):
vicinity of the pool pump. Motor so that's the first,
part so that one's. Easy so basically what it's saying, is,
look it doesn't matter whether you have a Double it
doesn't matter whether you have a double insulated water pump or,
not you're gonna have an equotential bonding.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Grid the code requires you to have this.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Perimeter, Uh and you're gonna have to have this perimeter
equatential bonding. Grid even if the pool is a vinyl,
liner or even if it's a fiberglass where it is
not a conducted pool, shell you still got the perimeter.
Requirement you're not gonna get away from the perimeter requirement
whether on any of those permanently installed. Pools, okay and
(15:59):
so that is six eighty twenty SIX b. Two you
can't get away from, it. Right you gotta do it.
Now we give you different ways to do. It we're
gonna talk about that On Coffee, hour but you can
also watch this video SERIES i did With Vince delacroze
over On Fast Tracks, tube and you can see we.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Talked about those type of. Things, Right but.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
You got to remember it at this, point you still
are going to have to connect from that grid over
to this motor.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Location. Right so that's what it's.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Saying So i'm gonna run a solid, Eight i'm gonna
run it all the way. Over it's going to be
long enough to connect. It IF i were to replace
that double insulated pool pump. Motor IF i were to
take that out of there and, say you, know give
me a, normal low, cost non double insulated pool pump,
motor put that sucker right, down Because i've done burned
up that double insulated one and they cost twice as.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Much i'm just. SAYING i don't know, that But i'm just.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Saying and so now we know that we have an
eight gauge there in order to connect it to the
equatential bonding.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Grid we know that it's, there it's waiting for.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Us so that's a future provision in case they replace
that double insulated pump motor with one that is non double.
Insulated that's the easy. Part and it's got to be long.
Enough leave you enough slack there so that you can
make that. Connection curl it up right. There you Think
i'm done, Right you, think, oh that's. It, well that's not.
All here's the sentence that confuses him in confusing many, people.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
It's the last.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Sentence the last sentence, says where there is no connection
between the swimming pool equatential bonding means and the equipment
grounding system for the, premise if there is no connection between.
Them then it says this bonding conductor and again that's
the one from the, grid the eight gauge solid.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Copper that we're running over to the motor.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Location it, says if that's the, case this bonding conductor
shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Circuit, Okay and typically do that up in the junction. Box,
okay where you're bringing the circuit. In. Okay so you're,
saying all, RIGHT i get. It so what does it
mean when it says when there's no.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Connection, well IF i had a pool and ALL i
had was a fence within five, Feet so, Again i'm
just trying to meet the bonding requirements OF b seven
fixed metal, parts And i'm gonna run THE i have
my grid that runs around the, pool So i've got
that extends out three, feet Or i'm using a single.
Wire if that's the kind of Allowance i've, got Then i'm.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Running it around the. Pool everything's. DONE i got my perimeter, Done.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay and you're, thinking, OH i got a metal fence
post or a metal awning or, whatnot and.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
That's within five.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Feet, OKAY i got a bond to SO i got
to run a jumper out from that grid over to
bond that metal. Thing, okay that metal. Part, OKAY i
could have a bunch of, these and all of, them
let's say within five feet let's say of the inside
wall of the, POOL i could have all.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
These.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Okay, now none of those may have electric running to,
them none of that they might have any power circuits
running to.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Them so there's no way that it can.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Be in common common connection with the premises grounding, system
because these are just.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Things these are just, Poles these are just an. Awning
they're not connected to any.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Circuit so there is no way that there's a connection
between the eco potential bonding That i'm doing and the
grounding system of the. Premise there is no way it
can be. Connected if that's the, case and there is
no connection between the, two and you're at this double
insulated pool pump, motor then you simply take the eight
(19:38):
gauge and you're going to connect it over to the
equipment ground connect them, together put it in the box and.
Done that's, It and that puts not only the grid
but also the grounding system both at the same potential
so that somebody doesn't come up and touch. Them there's
a potential difference of potential. There, okay they're at the same. Potential,
okay all, right so that's why you. Do it's. There
(20:01):
now if you happen to notice that in your pool
system that there is something else.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Installed let's say that it's a heater.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
System let's say that it's a maybe there's A i don't,
know maybe there's a treatment system that's. Interjected it puts chemicals,
in and it has a circuit that runs to, it
and that circuit has an equipment ground and it's connected to,
it and it's connected to the system and all of,
that and you're thinking and and of course that piece
of equipment may have a jumper from the grid to.
(20:33):
It and of, course since an equipment ground runs with
that circuit to that piece of, equipment guess, what there
is a commonality because it's in the. Equipment if there's
a metal frame on it and you're bonding that, frame,
right if you're doing, that if that's a metal, part
obviously that's within five feet, horizontally let's, say or if
(20:53):
it in the twenty twenty three, code if it is
a pool treatment, system then it's required to be bonded
and then you already have that intimate. Connection so there
is a connection already between the equopotential bonding grid and
the equipment grounding system by virtue of the connections on
that piece of. Equipment, well if that's the, case then
(21:14):
you can come back to your double insulated pool pump
motor and, say, hey wait a, minute there is a
connection somewhere else on this system between the bonding grid
and the equipment grounding system through that connection at that
other piece of equipment electrical. Equipment if that's the, case
then guess. What at your double insulated, pool you don't
(21:35):
have to connect that aid to the equipment Ground you
just curl that eight up and be. Done take that
equipment ground cap it or put keep it in the,
box whatever you want to.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Do just put it in the. Box you're.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Done you don't do anything with it because the connection
between the equipotential bonding grid and the equipment grounding system
that's been done somewhere, Else so that's on. You you have
to look at the system and, say, okay look if
if All i'm doing is going out to metal parts
that are within five feet, horizontally, RIGHT i mean if
(22:08):
that's All i'm. Doing i'm bonding posts and MAYBE i
don't know raceways or metal awnings or metal fence posts
or metal door. Frames if that's All i'm, doing, okay
THEN i don't have any connection between the equipotential bonding
grid and the grounding the, system the equipment grounding. System
(22:29):
there is nothing there because none of those Things i'm
bonding has any power running to.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Them there's no way it can be. Connected and if that's.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
The, case there is no, connection then at the pump
you do need to connect the eight to the equipment
ground at that non at that excuse, me at.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
That double insulated pool. Pump.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Okay, now the moment that down the road that somebody
comes along and, says, HEY i want to replace this
pump with a normal, one non double, insulated then what
do you?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Do all?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right will you take the equipment ground for the, Circuit
you take the, egg you pull them, apart you replace the,
Motor you use the equipment ground for that pump like
it's supposed to be the clear any ground fault that
would be on the, frame and then that little lug
that's mounted on the side of the metal frame of
the motor that's where you take the age gauge to,
it you connect it to it like you normally, would
(23:17):
and you're. Done that's, it nothing. Else so that's what that.
Means so when you look at the, system you need
to determine whether or not the equotential bonding grid and
the structure or the premise equipment grounding system are they intimate,
somewhere are they indirectly connected together somewhere through a piece of,
(23:40):
equipment or is your equiotential bonding grid totally isolated from
the building's equipment grounding. System if the answer is, yes
then you need to take that eight gauge to the
pump location area and you need to connect it to
the equipment. Ground if you identify that somewhere else in
this system that there is an equipment ground that is
(24:01):
making connection to some piece of equipment with a metal
frame that is also required to be bonded to the
equo potential bonding, grid then that connection already takes. Place
and so, you mister electrician pool, guy at your double insulated,
pump you can just curl that eight up and leave
it right there until somebody comes along later and installs
(24:22):
a non double insulated.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Pump does that make? Sense?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
GOD i hope that makes? Sense all, right, folks til next.
Time hopefully you got something out of. That catch us
On Coffee hour every day at eight Am monday Through,
friday and again the. Replay the replay comes at five
pm every day in case you miss it in the.
Morning all, right all, right, folks till next, time stay,
Saved god, blessed and It we'll catch you on an
upcoming episode Of Let's Ask. Paul remember you can listen
(24:49):
to all of our podcasts from our mobile app for.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Free and we had the New bond And ground.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Podcast WHERE i explain all things about grounding and bonding
an article two, fifty so make sure you check that
out as. Well and of Course master THE nec podcast
is our most popular, podcast is over a thousand, episodes
available on all your favorite listening, Platforms, Spotify, Spreaker, Deezer,
iHeartRadio all those good.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Places check it.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Out until next, time, Folks stay, Safe god bless
What Up? What Up?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Everybody?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast
where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you
want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
All you got to do is go to Paul Abernathy
dot com and just submit it. Dude, it gets in
the list.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'll either answer it in an email or you might
be selected for a podcast like today. So today's question
that came in was submitted, and of course this week
on Coffee Hour. If you're not following us on Coffee Hour,
we do that every morning at eight am Eastern Time.
You can watch from our mobile app. You can watch
it from LinkedIn, you can watch it from Facebook, you
(01:12):
can watch it from fast tracks Tube.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
There's many ways that you.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Can watch Coffee Hour in the morning. And of course
this past week we've been talking about swimming pools and
I've been answering all kinds of topics on that, doing
little presentations on it, trying to spill out as much
as I can in these Coffee Hours, which ultimately end
up being multiple hours. Okay, so a lot of info,
and they're also replayed every day at five pm in
(01:39):
case you can't make the morning show. And I'm always
giving little tidbits of information and coming up on June second,
unless whenever you're listening to this podcast that coffee hour,
we're gonna be digging into the equatential bonding grid around
a swimming pool.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So we're gonna be talking.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
About that, and obviously that's get deep into that subject.
That's six' eighty dot twenty six. And but I did
have a question that came in. It came in today
and I wanted to address this question. It was sent
to me Darlene forwarded on to me, and so I'm
gonna read the question and it's based on the question
is asking about the twenty twenty edition of the National
(02:18):
Electrical Code. But I'm going to answer it in the
twenty twenty three because the portion that they ask about
doesn't change. Okay, So it's exactly the same whether it's
the twenty twenty or the twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, exactly the same. So that's why I want to.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Address it and using the twenty twenty three rather than
go back to the twenty twenty. But I do encourage you,
like this gentleman did when you're sending me a question
if it's specific or something in it is specific to
the twenty twenty for example, and I'm teaching twenty twenty three.
If it's not the same, then I will go back
and use the code cycle that you request. But in
(02:55):
this case, I can do it in the twenty twenty
three as a complete podcast lesson and talk about some
of the changes and still cover the intent of what
the person that's sent in the question still wants to know.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Okay, So that's why I'm doing it. So I'm going
to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So I'm going to read this and I'm going to
try to address it here and hopefully I can get
to this. It doesn't take too long, all right. So
he says it's based on the twenty twenty NEEC. Again,
I'm using twenty twenty three, but the code cycle didn't change,
I mean, as far as the code section didn't change.
It says six to eighty dot twenty six B six A.
It says, I do not understand the intent or the
(03:33):
specific action required by the second sentence. Okay, So there's
second sentence in six eighty dot twenty six B six
A that this gentleman's not understanding. So you're listening to
a podcast, you can pause. Go get your codebook, open
it up, go to six eighty dot twenty six B
six A, and look at the second sentence, because that's
(03:54):
what he's asking about.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It goes on to give us a quote here.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It says, where there is no connection between the swimming
pool equipment excuse me, swimming pool eco potential bonding means okay,
that be the grid and the equipment grounding system of
the premise.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
That would be things like equipment.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Grounding conductors, the grounding electrode system, and all that kind
of stuff for the premise.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So it says where there's no connection between the two, okay,
it says this bonding conductor shall be connected to the
equipment ground and conductor of the motor circuit.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Okay. So that's the part that he's asking about.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
And that is you know exactly how it's written in
the twenty twenty three edition of the National Electrical Code
as well. Okay, all right, so we're gonna dig into
this little little more. So this one is specific for
when it is using a double insulated water pump motor.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So you have double insulated and you have the standard
pool water pump motors that are non double incis, the
very standard ones that we see most of the time.
But they do make double insulated water pump motors, and
it will say that clearly on the motor itself. It'll
be listed for that because it's listed equipment because it
(05:13):
incorporates an approved double insulation system.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And if that's the case, you typically don't bond those motors, right,
You're not gonna bond the motor, not required to bond
it because it's part of an approved double insulation system.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
And it also typically doesn't have an equipment ground and
conductor incorporated into the pump itself because of that double
insulation system.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Okay. So anyway, that's what it's reading.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Now, I'm gonna finish what he read he wrote to me,
and then I will elaborate on that sentence and try
to break it down for you. He also says the
first sentence in this requirement of a says, appears to
me that a bonding conductor and that is from the
equatential bonding grid, should be made available at the location
(06:01):
of the double insulated pump. That's correct. Without a bonding point,
that's correct. Because it's a double insulated system. It says,
in the event a future replacement pump that wasn't double
insulated could have access to that bonding conductor that would
connect it to the equipotential bonding grid, because it is
(06:23):
required to be connected to the equipotential bonding grid the
pull pump motor. Okay, typically it's in intimate with the
water circulation and all that type of stuff. Okay, all right,
and it says all my internet searches have proved to me.
There's a lot of other confused others confused by these
(06:44):
two sentences. Appreciate some clarification. Okay, So we're gonna address
this and kind of unroll it all. I will remind
you the gentlemen. I did email the gentleman. I did
give him an answer, which is gonna kind of be
on par with what we talk about in this episode.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But I did already. I don't always do that.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
A lot of times, I'll just do a podcast and
I'll say, hey, make sure you catch the podcast.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Or something like that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
But I did respond to him, and the gentleman actually
thought of asking me the question because he saw over
on Facebook where I posted something and said Hey, if
y'all got topics that you want me to talk about
on upcoming coffee hours, go ahead and post them. And
so that's still there, folks, if you want to If
there's things that you want me to talk about in
(07:28):
the mornings, coffee hour Monday through Friday eight am eight
am Eastern time. Sometimes it's multiple hours because I get rolling,
I don't want to stop.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Okay, that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
And so if that's the case, you want me to
talk about something, folks, that's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It's yes, I sell courses. Yes I have to make
a living, but I do love answering your questions and
even my haters out there. I got a lot of
haters out there for some reason. I don't know where
they they all came from, but everybody's got them, but
they seem to The funny thing I get about it
is they still watch my stuff. So so at the
end of the day, I guess I'm the one that
gets the.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Last laugh in all that scenario, right, But.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I Hey, haters are welcome, you know, feel free. I'm
gonna teach you something too. Don't worry even though you're
a hater. I'm gonna teach you something, all right, So
let's unpack this thing. So six eighty twenty six B
six is talking about electrical equipment, and basically it says
the metal parts of the following electrical equipment shall be bonded. Okay,
(08:30):
so that is kind of new language to the twenty
twenty three. But basically what it's saying is, you have
electrical equipment. This electrical equipment is going to be located
within five foot measured horizontally from the inside wall to
the pool. Okay, unless there's some kind of permanent barrier
that separates it. So if there isn't so measuring horizontally anything,
(08:51):
any electrical equipment that is gonna be within five feet
measured horizontally from the inside wall to the pool, or
where it is twelve feet measured vertically above the maximum
water level. And remember maximum is where the water will
flow out of the system, not normal water level, which
is the low point of the skimmer, because the skimmer
(09:12):
is going to keep it from you.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's the normal water level.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Maximum water level is what would it be if it
overflowed out of the pool.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Okay, So we have these rules and it also says
twelve feet measured vertically, also measured above observation stands, towers,
or platforms or other diving structures.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay, So it's just.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Making it clear what electrical equipment has to be bonded
to the equipotential bonding grid.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
That's all this is doing. Okay. And it also says
electrically powered pool covers. Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
It also says pool water circulation treatment, heating, cooling, or
de humidification equipment. All of this equipment, it's got to
be bonded to the equotential bonding grid. Now, of course,
all of these, by the way, are probably going to
you have an equipment grounding conductor run with the brand
circuit that's running to this equipment. So it's got an
(10:07):
equipment ground a conductor for the actual piece of equipment. Okay,
that's going to be important thing to remember here in
a minute. Okay, all right, so all these things have
to be bonded to the equotential bonding grid.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay. Now there is an exception here that says, you know, what, metal.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Parts of listed equipment incorporating an improved system of double
insulation shall not be bonded because there's nowhere to bond
to it, there's nothing to do to it. It's basically
a double insulated system. It's marked as such in most
all of these unequipment grounds, not necessarily due to the
nature of the system. But if you're running a branch
(10:48):
circuit to where this pump would be or where this
double insulated piece of equipment is, then you're probably going
to run a brand circuit that does have an equipment ground. Anyway,
because it's an electrician, you don't maybe know what kind
of damn pump the pool guy's gonna supply, and you're
so familiar with.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
The normal pump, and a normal pump for.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
The water is probably gonna have a lug on the frame,
and that's what you typically would take your eight gauge
from your ecopotential bonding grid, run it over to it,
put it on that lug, and then of course you
have the equipment ground that comes with the brand circuit
that's gonna go to the motor, so inside of that
motor or when that equipment ground on a normal motor
(11:27):
makes a connection to the ground terminal point on that
motor and bonds the metal frame to that equipment ground.
In case there's a fault condition when you bring the
ecopotential bonding grid wire jumper over from the grid to
that pump and to that lug. They are intimate. They
are connected together indirectly through the piece of equipment. Okay,
(11:51):
So that takes place, So the ecopotential bonding grid is
indirectly connected to the premise equipment grounding system through that
piece of equipment.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Okay, do that makes sense? Right? So they're intimate, right,
That's important things to remember. Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Now, when if I have a pool that I have
other things around it, okay, that are in proximity that
I need to bond anything that's metal. For example, I
might have a situation where I've got to bond things
all around the pool.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I might have a situation where I have some I
don't know, gosh, I might have a fence, a metal fence, okay,
a metal component Okay, may have that.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I might have What else could I have?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I mean, I could have other things that are within
a certain distance right of it, Okay, that I need
to actually bond to, maybe fixed metal parts, right if
they're within five foot horizontally in side wall of the pool,
metal fences, metal doors, metal window frames, all those type
of metal awnings, okay, metal piping, all that type of
(13:09):
stuff has to be connected to the equiotential bonding system.
But none of those things I just mentioned to have
anything to do with power, right, But a piece of
equipment that has a branch circuit running to it, has
circuit conductors, has an equipment ground, okay, and of course
you need to bond to that, to the equatential binding grid.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
For example, a pool pump motor. Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
All right, So getting back to this, so if you
look at six eighty twenty six B six', a it's
talking specifically about a double insulated water pump. Motor, Okay
and this is really what the cruxt of this, Question
this gentleman's asking this. One this two sentences in this
(13:56):
thing can be confusing for, people and so we're gonna
we're gonna unconfuse it right, now you, ready all, Right
i'm gonna read it from its, entirety and THEN i
will remember everything THAT i just, said and you'll show
and it'll it'll be, clear is crystal AFTER i say
it this?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Way right? Now it says for double insulated water pump. Motor.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Okay, Again typically you're not gonna bond these because it
is a double insulated. System it's marked on it as,
such so you're not gonna bond. It, however it, says
if your pool folks choose to use a double insulated
order pump, motor, okay that's. Choice there's non double insulated
and there's double. Insulated it, says where a double insulated
(14:37):
water pump motor is installed under the provisions of this,
rule and we're talking about this rule, here where it
would require to have the eight gauge run over to
it from the equatential bonding. Grid it, says a solid
eight awg copper only, copper, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Not the other types of materials out.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
There it's, copperalid not stranded solid solid eight awg copper
conductor of sufficient length to make a bonding connection to
a replacement motor shall be extended from the swimming. Pools
equipotential bonding means to an accept accessible point in the
(15:20):
vicinity of the pool pump. Motor so that's the first,
part so that one's. Easy so basically what it's saying, is,
look it doesn't matter whether you have a Double it
doesn't matter whether you have a double insulated water pump or,
not you're gonna have an equotential bonding.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Grid the code requires you to have this.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Perimeter, Uh and you're gonna have to have this perimeter
equatential bonding. Grid even if the pool is a vinyl,
liner or even if it's a fiberglass where it is
not a conducted pool, shell you still got the perimeter.
Requirement you're not gonna get away from the perimeter requirement
whether on any of those permanently installed. Pools, okay and
(15:59):
so that is six eighty twenty SIX b. Two you
can't get away from, it. Right you gotta do it.
Now we give you different ways to do. It we're
gonna talk about that On Coffee, hour but you can
also watch this video SERIES i did With Vince delacroze
over On Fast Tracks, tube and you can see we.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Talked about those type of. Things, Right but.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
You got to remember it at this, point you still
are going to have to connect from that grid over
to this motor.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Location. Right so that's what it's.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Saying So i'm gonna run a solid, Eight i'm gonna
run it all the way. Over it's going to be
long enough to connect. It IF i were to replace
that double insulated pool pump. Motor IF i were to
take that out of there and, say you, know give
me a, normal low, cost non double insulated pool pump,
motor put that sucker right, down Because i've done burned
up that double insulated one and they cost twice as.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Much i'm just. SAYING i don't know, that But i'm just.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Saying and so now we know that we have an
eight gauge there in order to connect it to the
equatential bonding.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Grid we know that it's, there it's waiting for.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Us so that's a future provision in case they replace
that double insulated pump motor with one that is non double.
Insulated that's the easy. Part and it's got to be long.
Enough leave you enough slack there so that you can
make that. Connection curl it up right. There you Think
i'm done, Right you, think, oh that's. It, well that's not.
All here's the sentence that confuses him in confusing many, people.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
It's the last.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Sentence the last sentence, says where there is no connection
between the swimming pool equatential bonding means and the equipment
grounding system for the, premise if there is no connection between.
Them then it says this bonding conductor and again that's
the one from the, grid the eight gauge solid.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Copper that we're running over to the motor.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Location it, says if that's the, case this bonding conductor
shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Circuit, Okay and typically do that up in the junction. Box,
okay where you're bringing the circuit. In. Okay so you're,
saying all, RIGHT i get. It so what does it
mean when it says when there's no.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Connection, well IF i had a pool and ALL i
had was a fence within five, Feet so, Again i'm
just trying to meet the bonding requirements OF b seven
fixed metal, parts And i'm gonna run THE i have
my grid that runs around the, pool So i've got
that extends out three, feet Or i'm using a single.
Wire if that's the kind of Allowance i've, got Then i'm.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Running it around the. Pool everything's. DONE i got my perimeter, Done.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay and you're, thinking, OH i got a metal fence
post or a metal awning or, whatnot and.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
That's within five.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Feet, OKAY i got a bond to SO i got
to run a jumper out from that grid over to
bond that metal. Thing, okay that metal. Part, OKAY i
could have a bunch of, these and all of, them
let's say within five feet let's say of the inside
wall of the, POOL i could have all.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
These.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Okay, now none of those may have electric running to,
them none of that they might have any power circuits
running to.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Them so there's no way that it can.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Be in common common connection with the premises grounding, system
because these are just.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Things these are just, Poles these are just an. Awning
they're not connected to any.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Circuit so there is no way that there's a connection
between the eco potential bonding That i'm doing and the
grounding system of the. Premise there is no way it
can be. Connected if that's the, case and there is
no connection between the, two and you're at this double
insulated pool pump, motor then you simply take the eight
(19:38):
gauge and you're going to connect it over to the
equipment ground connect them, together put it in the box and.
Done that's, It and that puts not only the grid
but also the grounding system both at the same potential
so that somebody doesn't come up and touch. Them there's
a potential difference of potential. There, okay they're at the same. Potential,
okay all, right so that's why you. Do it's. There
(20:01):
now if you happen to notice that in your pool
system that there is something else.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Installed let's say that it's a heater.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
System let's say that it's a maybe there's A i don't,
know maybe there's a treatment system that's. Interjected it puts chemicals,
in and it has a circuit that runs to, it
and that circuit has an equipment ground and it's connected to,
it and it's connected to the system and all of,
that and you're thinking and and of course that piece
of equipment may have a jumper from the grid to.
(20:33):
It and of, course since an equipment ground runs with
that circuit to that piece of, equipment guess, what there
is a commonality because it's in the. Equipment if there's
a metal frame on it and you're bonding that, frame,
right if you're doing, that if that's a metal, part
obviously that's within five feet, horizontally let's, say or if
(20:53):
it in the twenty twenty three, code if it is
a pool treatment, system then it's required to be bonded
and then you already have that intimate. Connection so there
is a connection already between the equopotential bonding grid and
the equipment grounding system by virtue of the connections on
that piece of. Equipment, well if that's the, case then
(21:14):
you can come back to your double insulated pool pump
motor and, say, hey wait a, minute there is a
connection somewhere else on this system between the bonding grid
and the equipment grounding system through that connection at that
other piece of equipment electrical. Equipment if that's the, case
then guess. What at your double insulated, pool you don't
(21:35):
have to connect that aid to the equipment Ground you
just curl that eight up and be. Done take that
equipment ground cap it or put keep it in the,
box whatever you want to.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Do just put it in the. Box you're.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Done you don't do anything with it because the connection
between the equipotential bonding grid and the equipment grounding system
that's been done somewhere, Else so that's on. You you have
to look at the system and, say, okay look if
if All i'm doing is going out to metal parts
that are within five feet, horizontally, RIGHT i mean if
(22:08):
that's All i'm. Doing i'm bonding posts and MAYBE i
don't know raceways or metal awnings or metal fence posts
or metal door. Frames if that's All i'm, doing, okay
THEN i don't have any connection between the equipotential bonding
grid and the grounding the, system the equipment grounding. System
(22:29):
there is nothing there because none of those Things i'm
bonding has any power running to.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Them there's no way it can be. Connected and if that's.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
The, case there is no, connection then at the pump
you do need to connect the eight to the equipment
ground at that non at that excuse, me at.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
That double insulated pool. Pump.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Okay, now the moment that down the road that somebody
comes along and, says, HEY i want to replace this
pump with a normal, one non double, insulated then what
do you?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Do all?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right will you take the equipment ground for the, Circuit
you take the, egg you pull them, apart you replace the,
Motor you use the equipment ground for that pump like
it's supposed to be the clear any ground fault that
would be on the, frame and then that little lug
that's mounted on the side of the metal frame of
the motor that's where you take the age gauge to,
it you connect it to it like you normally, would
(23:17):
and you're. Done that's, it nothing. Else so that's what that.
Means so when you look at the, system you need
to determine whether or not the equotential bonding grid and
the structure or the premise equipment grounding system are they intimate,
somewhere are they indirectly connected together somewhere through a piece of,
(23:40):
equipment or is your equiotential bonding grid totally isolated from
the building's equipment grounding. System if the answer is, yes
then you need to take that eight gauge to the
pump location area and you need to connect it to
the equipment. Ground if you identify that somewhere else in
this system that there is an equipment ground that is
(24:01):
making connection to some piece of equipment with a metal
frame that is also required to be bonded to the
equo potential bonding, grid then that connection already takes. Place
and so, you mister electrician pool, guy at your double insulated,
pump you can just curl that eight up and leave
it right there until somebody comes along later and installs
(24:22):
a non double insulated.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Pump does that make? Sense?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
GOD i hope that makes? Sense all, right, folks til next.
Time hopefully you got something out of. That catch us
On Coffee hour every day at eight Am monday Through,
friday and again the. Replay the replay comes at five
pm every day in case you miss it in the.
Morning all, right all, right, folks till next, time stay,
Saved god, blessed and It we'll catch you on an
upcoming episode Of Let's Ask. Paul remember you can listen
(24:49):
to all of our podcasts from our mobile app for.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Free and we had the New bond And ground.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Podcast WHERE i explain all things about grounding and bonding
an article two, fifty so make sure you check that
out as. Well and of Course master THE nec podcast
is our most popular, podcast is over a thousand, episodes
available on all your favorite listening, Platforms, Spotify, Spreaker, Deezer,
iHeartRadio all those good.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Places check it.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Out until next, time, Folks stay, Safe god bless
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