Master The NEC | Episode 26 | Pull Calculations are Vital | Talking PullSPEC! - Master The NEC - PODCAST

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:22):
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(00:45):
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Speaker 2 (00:54):
Now get ready. Here is your host, Paul Abernavi.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey, Hey, hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of Mastering
the NEEC. My name is Paul Abernathy, your host as
always for the podcast. Remember you can listen to all
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(02:24):
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Speaker 2 (02:57):
A lot of people like.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
The Amazon Music and all that kind of stuff. Anyway,
thanks for joining us on today's podcast. We're gonna be
talking a little bit about the importance of pull calculations
and why you should think about pull calculations.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Now.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's not really something that you worry too much about,
for example, in a residential application, unless you are going
to be pulling conductors through raceways from point to eighty
point B.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
And it looks like it's going to be a complex.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Pool because it's not always about whether or not the
conductors will fit in the raceway, assuming you know how
to do raceway field calculations. It's also the complexity of
the pool and is it even though it will technically
fit as far as volume, is it going to potentially
damage the conductors during the pool. So those are the

(03:51):
kind of things that we have to think about when
you're doing not just doing the math on a pull calculation,
it's the prep. Everything you're prep being for making sure
your bushings are on, you're following the NEC rules which
again minimum safety standards, also general practices that you're your
company may have in place if you work for somebody, uh,
and make sure you do it repetitiously every time. So

(04:15):
I work a lot with large companies like GM and
whatnot when it comes to you know, raceway calculations and
validating calculations and pull calculations and all this kind of stuff, Because,
to be honest with you, pull calculations are something that
it just seems that very few engineers want to do today.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
I don't know why is it? To me?

Speaker 3 (04:40):
It seems like it's pretty straightforward. I guess that you know,
they're they're they're already designing the projects. So if they're
designing it in a system CAD or something that it
should already do these things. But I'm finding, uh that
the vast majority, and of course I work with with
unco Wiring Prismium, Uh, we've add you know, tons of

(05:01):
requests through the years for us to do various pull
calculations for big projects, and you have to always question
it and go, well, why aren't the engineers doing it.
I mean, they're the engineers. We're just a wiing cable company.
So this is, you know, something that that people struggle
with trying to get somebody to do these calculations. And
of course, if you're a large company like let's say

(05:24):
a GM or a Ford or whatever, and you're building
a facility, you're hiring a contractor to pull these raceways
and set everything up. And the problem is, again you
don't let the wolf in the henhouse. Is the way
they're thinking about it. They're thinking, Okay, well you're the
one that's going to be pulling it. You're the one
that's gonna be doing it. But we wanted third party,

(05:46):
we want to independent to look at this pull and
make sure it's okay, and a lot of times they'll
ask the wiron cable manufacturer to do it.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
And the problem with the wiren cable.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Manufacturers is a lot of people that are designing it
from a wire cable PERSPECTI they know their wire, they
know their cable, but they're not electricians. They don't know
the other nuances to the pull, the things that have
to be thought about, so they're just focused on are
you going to damage my wire? That type of scenario,
and a lot of companies will do their own calculations

(06:18):
or they even have their own pull calculators that you
can use. Again, there's just so many variables that you
run into there that it's sometimes you just want some companies,
you know, to actually do the calculation for you and
also give you additional notes, different things to reminders, for example,
all of our pulls. I should mention this by the way,

(06:41):
as a disclaimer for today's show. We here at Electric
Code Academy have a division that we started called pul
Spec and pul Spec is not a separate company, it's
part of ECA. Because we're electrical educators, we understand the
concepts of the National Electrical Code minimum safety standards. We

(07:03):
are not professional engineers, do not want to be. Anything
that we do is not to take the place of
what an engineer, a licensed engineer, would have to do.
We are simply a third party eyes so all of
our stuff will obviously come with disclaimers, but we have
a reputation of being very well known in the industry,
and of course everything should be reviewed by if in

(07:25):
question the engineer. We do give certificate of accuracies based
on the information that's provided. Only the information that's provided.
Any deviation from the installation is going to cause that
certificate to be null and void. So it's important, and
I'll kind of talk it through the steps of why
that's important and why you want to have actually a

(07:46):
third party doing and why we even started the division
for this. One of the reasons why is over eleven
years I've been dedicated to the wiring cable business. In
other words, I see the ins and out, the understanding
of the different types of installation, how they react in
certain types of race ways, the importance of having some

(08:08):
margins of error on certain things, and so over those
eleven years, and of course I've been doing the NEC
for nearly forty years. Over that eleven years of dedicated
study to wiring cable, it didn't really matter. Of course,
I worked with NIMA originally, and I worked with NIMA
and I got to work and get familiar with all
of the manufacturers, and the production of wiring cable, believe

(08:30):
it or not, is very much standardized.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Through the industry.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Uh, there's there's some nuances in the in the in
different product scopes. But you know, for example, thermoplastic THGN,
it really doesn't matter what manufacturer makes it. It's still
THJG in okay. And so there there may be some
nuances when it comes to the level of other catalysts
and things flame retardant material, but at the end of

(08:56):
the day, they all pass U L eighty three, okay.
So they have that all in common. Same thing with
thermo set like an XHHW slight differences in the in
the makeup of the insulating material, but at the end
of the day they all have to meet UL forty four.
So there's some commonalities that you have amongst all the manufacturers.

(09:18):
What can be differing between manufacturers is the end product
might be. For example, we would produce unco wire prismium
would produce a THHHN for example, that has a pulling
lubricant that's applied to the actual conductor and in placed
on a reel, so it's kind of basically encapsulated in
the layers on the reel, so that preserves it, and

(09:41):
that's going to reduce the coefficient of friction. And we'll
talk about cof here in a minute. But other manufacturers
actually put it into the material, into the nyline or
into the insulating material and is it actually, for lack
of a better term, emulsifies out of the product. Right,
So there's just different approaches to get this pulling lubricim

(10:03):
onto the product. Of course, nothing removes you guys know this.
Nothing removes the ability or the or gives you removes
your right to apply additional pulling lubricants. You know, some
manufacturers guard against it. They're like, well, we don't ritually
it might affect the effectiveness of our existing or the

(10:24):
folks that apply topical they're not going to say, I
don't care if you want to put more, put more.
All it's going to do is potentially lower the coefficient
of friction and make the pull a little better.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Now, a bad pull is a bad pull.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
It doesn't matter how much loub you want to try
to slam on it again. I can hear I can
hear jokes coming all over the place. Now with that one,
I know how the minds of some of the electricians are.
So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter
if it's a bad pull, it's a bad pull. And
when some people design a raceway set up, they really

(11:01):
don't think all the way through. It's just like I
need to get ten pounds of crap in a five
pound bag. This is how I'm gona get from point
A to point B. And in the surface it seems logical, Okay,
just get from here to there. If I've got some
space to get from here to there, kind of weave
your way through that space. But at the end of
the day, let's remember a couple things. Number one, electrical installations.

(11:24):
While we want to get them done, they're only as
good as the installer. They're only as good is how
we put the system together. Because if something's going to fail,
it probably is not going to fail right away. It's
going to fail in time, whether you do a raceway configuration.
And there's you know, we got these rules in the
code that you can't exceed three hundred and sixty degree
worth of bins between pull points, so you couldn't have,

(11:48):
for example, from point A to point B. From pullbox
to pullbox, you couldn't have more than three hundred and
six degreed worth of bins. So you can't have more
than than four ninety degree degree bins from point A
to point B. Now that doesn't necessarily have to be
four nineties, right, I mean that that could be a
forty five, a twenty two and a half to a ninety,

(12:08):
to a horizontal ninety to a, so it all adds up.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
It's cumulative. Even your offsets add up.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
So people will attempt to do layouts and then they'll
put boxes if they're going to exceed three hundred and sixty,
not understanding that the box is just one element. Okay,
you actually, if you put the box in, you still
have to meet the pullbox rules, even if you intend
to just pull straight through it. And all you're putting
that box in for is to appease the code. We

(12:39):
see that all the time. Just that put a small
box in there, it'll count as a pull box. In
that way, we're not exceeding three sixty. That is not
how the NEC works. So one of the things that
we do as part of the service of Pullspec is
to not only analyze the pulls for the manufacturers, for

(13:00):
the contractors, for the owners. It's a third party review
because at the end of the day, what we've seen
on very large installations there's been damage to conductors, accidents.
We know that a lot of these raceways underground are
going to be flooded, so we don't want to put
any potential undue damage or unnecessary damage, I should say,

(13:23):
onto the conductors as they pull around bins. You have
sidewalk pressure issues, which everything great until it's not right. Uh,
And there's a lot of factors that can play into that. Now,
you may be somebody who's done this for thirty five,
forty years, maybe even fifty years, and you say, shit,
I've never had a problem. I've never done a calc
That's fine. I mean it happens. I mean people do

(13:45):
it all the time. I know people that have wired
houses for ever and they've probably never done a load
calk and they've never had a problem. And you know,
the the Tuesla gods have been on their side, but
there's always that one occasion that happens.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
And if you're a bigger.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Company that's doing big projects, data center projects, big commercial
projects that's all about longevity, Googles and Amazons and all
those kind of problem. You know, they do not want
long term problems, right, And so whether you're installing conductors

(14:21):
in a cable tray and the big conductors with rollers
along the whole way to try to keep that pressure
down as much as possible, or you're just pulling conductors
in a you know, cable tray, or you're doing raceway
installations where you have parallels and multiple conductors in parallel.
There's so many things that people can do to screw

(14:42):
that up that ultimately it only takes one problem to
bring the.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Whole system down.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
Okay, So one of the things that that pullspeck that
one of the things that we do with it is
we do the whole analysis. So if you, for example,
we get contacted. And the reason we started this division
because I was doing these things and I had more
and more people say I need I'd want them to
have their own little certificate of accuracy based on the

(15:11):
information provided. Well, anybody could do that, but nobody was
doing that. So we decided to come up with that.
And what it is basically is you submit ten runs
and if there are parallel sets, then obviously that's easy.
All of them are going to replicate themselves. So even
though there's ten of them, it's, you know, the question

(15:33):
from the customer who ends up beying, do you want
us to do an analysis of every run? Or since
there are ten identical runs, you want us to do
one and then we'll do that one times ten and
you won't get charged for ten. You'll get charged for
one because all these runs are identical, and that saves
them quite a bit of money, and it gives them
a certificate of accuracy they can give to GM or

(15:55):
to FOD or to whatever. And a lot of times
they'll want the manufacturers to do that, and they are
heavily disclaimered, and rightfully so. Manufacturers of Warren cable are,
you know, don't want to hang their neck out there.
I get it, And a lot of us will do
the pull calculations, but you have to wait for them,
whereas in our situation, Uh, it's quicker using pulse our

(16:17):
pulse back and we're able to give a certificate of accuracy.
Very contingent again on what's been submitted, and we have
a very detailed onboarding form that it's going to ask
for all of the details that type of thing.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
We'll talk about some.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
Of that stuff here in this episode, but I'm just
kind of giving you this executive summary, even though it's
just a really long executive summary of the importance of it. Okay,
so let's talk a little bit about, uh, for example,
you know, the pull calculations and what we're trying to do.
It's be honest with you today. On this episode, we're

(16:57):
going to be diving really into the most overlooked but
essential parts of an electric installation raceway pull calculations, raceway
field calculations, compliance with the pullbox requirements, and analysis that
you're compliant with all that. So whether you're you know,
whether you're installing conduit runs in a skyscraper or pulling

(17:18):
feeders in a warehouse, all it takes is one bad
pull to bring the whole thing down. And another example
of that would be parallel applications. I see so many
pictures on social media of parallel installations where they're just
you know, you have bend, have to bend at the
bend less than doing nineties, and they basically concentric out

(17:42):
and you don't realize that the inner bend is shorter
than the outer bend. And what happens is you create
longer conductors. Well, if you're doing parallel applications, you can
have longer conductors.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
In a parallel set.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
All of your a's have to be the same length,
all of your b's have to be the same length,
or your c's have to be the same link. Well,
if you're running ABC in one raceway ABC and another
ABC and another ABC, they're not going to be all
the same length when it comes to one set or
one one phase like A and a three phase set up.
So there's advice that has to be given, whereas you're

(18:19):
gonna have to make it up in the ends of
the junction boxes. Uh, at the end of the even
terminal boxes. It may not always look as pretty right.
You may have a conductor that's a little longer than
the other and nobody likes to see that in these
terminal boxes. But at the end of the day, it's

(18:43):
all about how you run the installation. And so sometimes
running those concentrics along the wall where they all just
turn out is not as smart to do. Then it
would be to turn up and then have a have
a tray or like a a I don't know, can
you from a thread all down to a trapeze and

(19:06):
turn and then have them all turn essentially the same
and basically trying to keep all the raceways the same length.
All those type of things can all cause problems with
a parallel installation, And I just don't think people are
reviewing three ten ten like they should. Things just work
and installation is pretty resilient and you're gonna have more

(19:29):
current being drawn on one conductor than the other. But
I think they don't think about those things, and it
becomes critically more important in things like data centers where
people that expect the data to be up all the time,
right the data uprad's so important about the upbraid and
one conductor overheats and melts down and all of a

(19:50):
sudden it brings the whole system down, and then that's
when you got customers that are upset that type of thing.
So real world consequences is, you know, trying to keep
everything consistent in understanding that we don't want to damage
any conductors during the pull. The cost of an improper installation,

(20:13):
you got damaged conductors, you could have excessive pull tension
where you know you're not doing your calculation right, you're
not following the basics of pulling tension.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
You're not adding in a fudge factor there.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
In other words, if I'm doing a full calculation, and
I'm doing an equation, let's say AO point zero zero
eight times whatever the circular mill times the number of
conductors in that pool, that is your maximum pulling tension.
But you should never base it on your maximum pulling tension.

(20:50):
We have a built in fudge factor. We believe that
you shouldn't exceed seventy five percent of your maximum pulling tension,
and we explain how that works in the initial onboarding
type of thing for a client that might be interested
in us doing their pull calculations. Obviously, the consequences of
not doing it properly can be failed inspections. And anybody

(21:13):
has a failed inspection, that's it's time consuming. Even if
you're a project that doesn't necessarily get inspections, and you think, well,
nobody's looking at my work, what's the harm, what's the foul.
It's all good until something does fail. And Murphy's law
is something may fail, and when it does, you're going
to be it's going to be highlighted that you did

(21:33):
something wrong, and it's going to follow its trail back
to whoever did it. And they can point fingers all
they want, but ultimately it's it's going to be sorted
out and somebody's going to have to pay the price
for it, working injuries or delays in projects because things
have to be done. You know, we get paid to
do it once, we don't typically get paid.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
To do it twice.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Okay, so the raceway may be code compliant, but can
the conductors actually be pulled through that raceway and not
have potential problems with the conductors. I think the misconception
is that as long as you don't feel the raceway
more than forty percent right in, as long as you

(22:17):
don't exceed three sixty, and as long as you do
all that that you never are going to have a
problem with your installation. And that's just not true. I mean,
you could have runs that are extremely long, and you know,
gravity is what it is, and the surface tension when
you're pulling a conductor across the surface, whether it's aluminum,

(22:41):
whether it's steel, whether it is PVC. Okay, All these
different types of surface materials have a different coefficient of
friction and resistance to the glide, if you will, And
it can be different also with the type of insulation
you're using, whether you're pulling rubberish type of RHHRHWDASH two,

(23:05):
whether you use an XHHW DASH two it's a thermal
set kind of a harder material, or you're using TATG
in which has any line coding, which has a different
coefficient of friction variable than you would with an X
or with an rhhrhw DASH two. Or maybe even you're
pulling medium voltage in there and you might have a
CPE type of sheathing on it. How different things are

(23:25):
have different effects. But of course, the one of the
big components is weight. And when you're pulling a lot
of weight in a raceway for long distances, and I'm
gonna be honest with you, the data center applications, the
big commercial they want less splices as possible. So the
beautiful thing about things like a medium voltage application is

(23:49):
that you can get a lot longer runs, a lot
longer pulls without any need for any splicing.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Things like that. Of course, you can do that also
with the low volt and stuff.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
But at the end of the day, I think that
the emphasis is just because it fits doesn't and it
may be code compliant, doesn't always necessarily mean that it's
going to be okay for the wire or the cable
that type of thing. And then obviously there's right ways
and wrong ways to pull. You'd be surprised how many

(24:21):
people don't understand pulling a MC cable in a raceway,
which is permitted, or pulling it in a cable tray.
Don't think about the proper way to pull MC cable,
proper way to do it, proper way to help the system.
People don't think about back tension things like that. They

(24:43):
just set it up, hook it up, and just pull
it right. So anyway, there's so many things that can
go wrong that you have to think about.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Now, you know, the NEC.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Requires that in a pull that for example, the raceways
have to be a complete system three hundred that seventeen,
so it's a complete system.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
And I see a lot of time people are piecemealing
these things together.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
Right, They're putting a piece of raceway, pulling a conductors
in it, putting another piece pulling conductors, putting another piece
pulling and the reason they're doing that, and let's be honest,
the reason you're doing that or you've done that. A
great example that I can think of is for like
a swimming pool application, when you're pulling to a remote
panel for a swimming pool, they will put this in
the trench and they put it in a raceway, and
they just don't put the raceway in.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
First, which you're supposed to. From box to box.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
What they do is they'll they'll they'll pull the wire
in piece by piece.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
And then glue it up.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
And why you think they're doing that because they have
a problem pulling it through the raceway, and so they
just assume, well, I just do it piece by piece
by piece, but the code doesn't allow for that, even
though people do that, right. There's an actually also a
thing to think about when it comes to conduit fill

(25:55):
versus actual pull ability are two different things. So again,
it depends on the number of bins, It depends on
the temperature, it depends on humidities, It can depend on
the raceway type, it can depend on the insulating material,

(26:16):
and it can really depend on whether they're plexed or
whether they're pulled individually.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
In not plexed or preplexed.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
All different types of things can have a bearing on
the prollability of the actual installation. Now, I know many
people are listen to say, Paul, I've never had any problem.
I've never I understand, and it may not be. These
things may not be something that you need to take
into consideration. But I can tell you I have dealt

(26:47):
enough with bigger companies like GMS and Fords and other
big big autible bio manufacturing companies and Tesla different things
like that for their plants down in Houston.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
I think it was Houston wherever.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
They're playing different things in some chemical production facilities where
these are critical things because things like jamming and back
pressure and overall weight of conductors play a significant role.
And a lot of times when people design a system,

(27:26):
they don't think about those things. They just design it
and say, oh, I can put this many conductors in
a raceway. It should be fine. I'm not exceeding three
sixty per pull point. But they don't think about the
linth And they also don't think about where they put
the bends in this layout, like there is a right
way and the wrong way to pull right, and sometimes
you're space restricted, but pulling from point A to point

(27:49):
B may not necessarily be the right way to pull.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
It may be B to A.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Actually, it's going to reduce the amount of pulling tension
and sidewall pressure issues that you may encounter or during
the pool. No, sidewalk pressure is something we haven't talked
about yet, but sidewalk pressure is basically, if you think
about it, it's just like taking a taking a grape
and just squeezing it between your fingers and it'll rip
along the sides. So insulation gets pulled through raceways. You

(28:15):
have all this tension behind it. It's all this surface tension.
Even with pulling lubricant, you get further into the pool,
stuff of this stuff starts to dry out a little
bit and and the tension starts going up. That's why
every pool should have a tension meter on the end,
so you can record every pool and keep that data
so you can get kind of a statistic data for

(28:38):
each pool for future reference. It's kind of because again
they it's not like it's brain surgery on that it'll
all be repetitive. In other words, you it should be
very similar because you're doing similar conditions. Okay, assuming you've
cleaned the raceways, properly, done everything you're supposed to do.
Everything's identical. Then again, the data is the data. It
should be pretty consistent, right, but there might be a

(29:01):
wrong way or right way and wrong way. For example,
you do not want to pull through raceways and wait
until you get to the bins and the bendi part
of the pool at the end. You just don't want
to do it. You need to make sure that you
design it so that all of your bins are in
the front end. You front load these binds, not back

(29:22):
in them. And I have so many people that I
see design these systems. That's why own all of our pools.
We do what's called a reverse analysis. So we look
at the pool, we calculate it out, and then we
do a reverse and we see does this change the
variables in it? And also if they're so close to
the line, we might look at it and say, well,
we recommend a pullbox. At this point, now you might

(29:46):
say I'm not using the pullbox. I'm going to pull
straight through it. We're still going to tell you that
it needs to be designed based on the raceways that
are coming into it. Okay, So it's not like you're
just going to put a little I see pictures all
the time where they'll put in something like a little
thin wireway in there and it'll go in and go
out the other side, and that's not going to work
if it's a straight pull. They're putting that box in

(30:07):
there for pullbox reasons and because you're trying to beat
the three sixty, but the box isn't size adequate, and
you're like, well, it doesn't matter because I'm going to
pull straight through it. Then that's a straight pull. That
that is not That's not what that poolbox was really for.
You're just doing it to try to circumvent the code. Okay,
the poolbox needs to be there because we analyzed it

(30:29):
and said, you know what, you're running very close to
the maximum tension that this can handle based on you know,
the little protection factor, your tugger's maximum ratings, all these
type of things. You need to pull this pool box
in there, and you need to use it. And that
might mean you pull the wire to that point and
you bring it out and you loop it around and
you make sure the area where you're going to loop
it out at is is not going to cause any

(30:53):
damage to the conductor's okay. So you might have to
prep the area and then you pull it out and
then you refeed back into the going the other way,
but you gotta have enough room to do that. You're saying, well,
I'm just putting it in there to meet the pull
requirement because I'm going to be more than three hundred
and sixty degree preeen Bins. And that doesn't solve it.
Just because you put the box in there. People say, well,
that meets the code. Now that doesn't that pullbox that

(31:15):
you're putting in there to meet the code. You still
have to meet the three fourteen eight pullbox requirements. Okay,
eight eight times the largest raceway when it comes to
a straight pull, six times for angle pulls. You still
have to do it, and you have to understand how
to do it. So I saw one the other day
that was that was submitted to me that I saw it,

(31:38):
and they just put the wireway in there just to
appease the three sixty issue. It was a really long
run and uh and we analyzed the raceway phil it
was right at like thirty nine percent. I mean, it
is right at it, but they put this in there
to get there, and we recommended that they actually put
a proper sized pullbox in there in case they needed

(32:00):
that help at the end because of an issue.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
You know, they can try to pull through it.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
It passed all the things, but we made a recommendation
of whether they want to follow it or not, that's
totally up to them, right. But it's just kind of
those things you have to think about and people say, look,
I'm just here to get the job done. That's fine.
It's all good until it goes to shit and then
you got to worry about it.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Now.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
Pull calculations and themselves are made up of things that
we have to think about that you should be thinking about.
If you work at a commercial facility, if you design
electric Rosadin, all those big companies that pull this big stuff,
data centers, Amazons, Googles, facebooks, all those type of things,
this should be something your staff thinks about. And this

(32:43):
is pull calculations are a must. Raceway analysis is a must,
pull box analysis is a must. Accessibility to these poolboxes.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Is a must.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
And I'm assuming all the engineers do that all right,
I mean, that's part of their job. But the problem
is not doing pull calculations. They're asking the manufacturers to
do them, and really the manufacturer is probably not the
one you want actually doing them. You really want a
third party doing a pull calculation. So that's kind of

(33:14):
what spawned us to create the pull spec, is it.
It's a third party set of eyes that this doesn't
have any interest in the manufacture of the wire or
a cable, has no interest in the race ways, has
no interest in the owner, has no interest in the inspections,
just simply looks at the data, gives you a yes no,
and give you a certificate of accuracy based on the

(33:36):
information it was provided. Any deviation from that obviously null
and voids the certificate. So it really kind of gives
a third party upholding to both the contractor to the owner,
to everybody that this is going to be done this way,
and so if they deviate from it, they get the
third party pull like for us, for example, pul spec

(33:57):
to sit in and then we will say, look, we
will have have to redo the calculation.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
That way.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
There's no speculation involved right now. As far as the
safety of the pull that is totally up to the
site people, whether they how they lock.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Down the reels, how they do it.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
We don't get into that We stay out of that
because that's their specialty. How they're going to secure things,
whether you're pulling it from a tenth floor down to
our first floor, so you don't get rapid payoff, that's
their responsibility. We don't get involved in any of that.
We're about the reliability of getting conductors from A to

(34:34):
B properly. That's what we're all about. Okay, so what
do you have to worry about? Well, you know people
don't think about these things. But you have to worry
about your pull force. You have to worry about your
sidewall pressure. You have to worry about cable tension. You
have to worry about the conduit type, the layout, the
bins all set, the transitions, the elevation changes, all of

(34:56):
that type of stuff when you're doing that, and we
use a soft where and we helped with that. I
helped in the development and evolution of the product. And
we do an analysis and give a report and we
make the decision to give that certificate of accuracy based
on the information that's provided. You're going to fill out

(35:18):
the form. Basically, it just takes it out of everybody's hands.
It takes it out of the electricians' hands. It takes
it out of the owner's hands, it takes it out
of the manufacture of Warren cable's hands. They just make wire,
they make cable. It's always been a service for the
wiring cable to do these calculations, but at the end
of the day, that's not necessarily what they do on

(35:40):
a daily basis. They make wron cable. So it just
stands to reason that you can go on and get
a third party to take care of that for you,
just like you hire an engineer. You know, we, for example,
with Pullspeck, we are not an engineering firm. We are
not a p PE. We don't want to be one.
We're not doing engineering design. We're not taking the place
of an engineer. We never claim to be an engineer.

(36:03):
We are electrical professionals who have designed systems, that are
master electricians that have worked in the wiring cable industry
for over eleven years. We've worked at NIMA, We've worked
with building officials. So we think we are uniquely qualified
to be able to offer such a service based on
the information and we use what we believe is the

(36:25):
world's best pulling software in the world to make our analysis.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
That type of thing. So it's just where we come
from from it.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
But we look at everything from your We'll ask you,
for example, we want to know here's kind of the
criteria in case you're interested to know what we're going
to do. So when we have an onboarding interview with
a client, they'll tell us how many runs they want, okay,
and we'll say okay, and we'll say all right, so
here's what we need. We need to know the wire
type so you need from the manufacturers, and of course

(36:55):
we can procure this for you. It's a different fee
than if you provide it or we have to go
procure it. But we need to know the conductors or
the cable type that's going to be pulled, type of raceways.
It's going to be pulled, sizes obviously it'd be pulled.
We need to know that if pulling lubricant is being used,
we need to know what the coefficient of friction of

(37:16):
that specific pulling lubricant is, which can be gotten from
the pulling lubricant manufacturers. How it's going to be applied, okay,
makes a difference whether you're going to pre feed it
into the raceway or feed it by hand. You use
a pump method or whatever you're going to do in
the amount, and so then we have that. Then we
need to know all of your bins and we need

(37:36):
to know the radiuses of these bins.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
We'll handle the link. You just need. We need to
know the radius.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
So if it's a three foot radius ninety, we need
to know that that's what it is.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
A three foot radius nine.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Again comes from the main All this stuff comes from
the manufacturers of the equipment you're using. So it's not
brain surgery. You just simply choose your installation. If the
engineer is designing it, all you do is ask the
manufacture of the specific products to give them their data,
their product sheets, that type of thing. So the wire
manufacturer will tell you the weight per foot, whether it's

(38:09):
copper aluminum, They'll tell you the the diameter of the
conductor itself. Okay, they'll give you all of that information.
It's published. And so then we need to know all
the raceways, whether it's nineties, forty fives, twenty two and
a half off sets where there's ten ten degree offsets
and you know, and we need to know the length

(38:30):
between the offsets, the length between the bins. You know
that those type of things, right, all critically important in
the layout of the installation. And after it's done, you
give us all this info. Okay, elevation change, if it
goes up ten degrees, it goes up twenty degrees uphill
where you intend to desire to pull. Okay, all this

(38:54):
stuff is the same that you would need if an
engineer designed it out. And so we're just mass or
electricians that are doing an evaluation on this installation and
giving you an opinion like I do for example with
E C. A. We do consulting UH on the NEC,
same same scenario. And so we'll give you this information

(39:17):
based on what you feed us. Then we'll do a
summary report. We'll give you the summary report that says
all the information we discussed. You sign off on it,
that you agree that this is accurate to to you
know what you're what you're trying to do. You know,
you can have your engineers sign on and then Boom
will produce the report and we'll give you the yes,
the no. We'll give you all the skinny on the pool.

(39:39):
We'll even give you is there advantageous to pull it
in a different you know from the other end. One
of the things you do have to submit to us
is a rough isometric drawing.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
And again that doesn't need to bring brain surgery. We
just need to have a layout of the raceways from
point A to point B. Now, sometimes the engineers will
have a drawing that is two dimensional, and that's not
going to work. We can't see elevation changes unless they
want to mark it up. But typically what we want
to see is where it comes from the box or
the panel or the switch gear down. Turning a ninety

(40:13):
running horizontal for whatever, turns a forty five degree horizontal,
goes twenty five feet, then it hits a ninety up
ten feet, and then it turns around, it hits another
ninety and goes back to horizontal. All those things we
want to know, and we want to know the radius
of all those bins. We want to know the link
of the horizontally. All that stuff is fairly simple. We

(40:33):
have an example diagram. It kind of shows what we're
looking for. It doesn't have to be brain surgery, right,
doesn't have to be catted out some fancy drawing. But
we need something that's going to show all these elevation
changes so that we can take into account elevation change
that type of thing.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Now, in that.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Process, we'll also analyze excuse me, we'll also analyze the
raceway fil We'll based on the information provided the weight,
so we'll know all the total weight of the total
assembly per foot, which is very critical.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
We're also going to ask something.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
For example, we're gonna say, how are you planning on
starting this pull? Are you going to be assisting the pull,
You're gonna be helping it off the reel, You're going
to have a pusher, a big wheel that helps push
this and access a brake as well, depending if you're
pulling from like tenth floor down to the first floor
or just a pure horizontal pull with some offsets and things.

(41:28):
We'll want to know if that back pressure is planning
on being zero, mean, you're going to assist it the
whole way so it doesn't have to get started and
gets herky jerky based on the reel because the reels
can be heavy, or are you going to be assisting
it with something that's going to make it effortlessly pull
off the reel, which, again I'm gonna be honest with you.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
In the world of.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Pull calculations, people seem to worry more about the coefficient
of friction, whether it's point one, four point one, seven
point one nine, all those things are great, But in
a normal pull, it's more about the back pressure. If
you can keep the back pressure at zero means that
it's going to basic, effortlessly roll off of that reel,

(42:11):
whether you're helping it within a motor assist or people
spinning it or whatever. If you guarantee and you sign
off that it's going to have zero pounds of back pressure,
then you're going you're infinitely greater chance of having a
successful pull than you are to have some type of
back pressure twenty five pounds, fifty pounds, one hundred pounds.

(42:32):
It's going to be a herky jerky type of pull
that has the potential to do worse for your overall
calculation than a slightly deviated coefficient of friction. Okay, and
then that can deviate depending on raceways you have. You
are your raceways cleaned? Have you cleaned your race ways?

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Or no question for that and all those type of things. Ultimately,
at the end of the day, using a very reputable
pulling lubric can be extremely beneficial. We have our recommendations,
we will make our recommendations to the customer. They do
not have to use our recommendations because we're going to
ask you what the coefficient of friction is published for

(43:12):
the product that you're using, but we will have some
built in factors, and so it's no secret that we're
going to recommend polywater, whether it's their inn in or
they're JAY, or they're different types for different applications. There's
also a silicone free type of JAY as a silicone
free water based product, but there's a more siliconized products

(43:36):
that obviously is going to stay slicker longer with this
silicone in it. And if you're in a non automobile industry,
the silicone really shouldn't matter to you. You just want
to make sure that that coefficient of friction gets as
low as freaking possible during that pull. And that's what
we're gonna analyze for you, and it takes all the
guesswork out of it. We do all the background stuff.

(43:59):
We just need to make make sure that you feed
us the right material and then you walk away and
we give you a nice, pretty report and you're not
waiting for the manufacturer of the wron cable folks to
do it. Three weeks four weeks, whatever it takes, and
that's not really their area of expertise. Yes, they make
wiing cable, but I've been doing this for eleven years.
I can tell you right now. We're in the business
of making wiren cable. We're not in the business being

(44:21):
experts in pulcalcs, although we do them, and other companies
make pool calculators like South Wire, right, but any you
really should have a third party doing this and your
engineer either does it and signs off on it. But
there's a big reason why a lot of them don't.
They don't understand the nuances of a pool calculation. I'm
not seeing all of them, but it because it's kind

(44:43):
of amazing to me. And I've been doing this specifically,
specifically for over eleven years, and I routinely do not
see any specification require a pool calculation. And I don't
see anything a certificate of accuracy for a pool calcul
which I would be pushing for in the spec industry.

(45:04):
And it should be done by a third party because again,
it kind of holds people accountable for these things. Now
when it talks about the pull calculation, when you must
do a pull calculation, you should be doing a pull
calculation on any long run period, because again, the surface
area of that conductor pulling is dramatically changes.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
This is the same.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
Scenario of you going down a water slide when there's
no water in it all the way down right, and
do you get this burn.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
On your leg? Right? Same concept, same concept.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
So in the other thing is you say, well, I
don't need to do that because I just pour a
shitload of pulling lubrican in there. And that's not true
because if there's certain manufacturers of pulling lubrinc, there's more goofy,
if you will, than others, and it dries out quickly.
And as you have a longer run with a lot
more friction, the friction builds up a heat, and the
heat can be counter active to the process of needing
the pulling lubricn and then of course it gets kind

(46:05):
of gunky and then it can get sticky. So again,
long runs are a big deal. You have to be
careful bending the bins if you're going to have three
hundred and sixty degree worth of bins or heaven forbid,
you're in a company you're so let me give you
an example. There was GM did a pull and they
had more than three hundred and sixty degree worth of

(46:27):
bends because of where it was being run, and I
recommended that they have these pullboxes added. They had no
intention to use these pull boxes at all, but they
they realized that if it was going to be inspected,
they'd have to have this because of the three hundred
and sixt degree requirements. So they said it wasn't getting
inspected because they don't have the need. That they are

(46:48):
the AHJ, they're going to do it. So they gave
the approval to exceed three hundred and sixty degree. Well,
there was no way. I mean, they can do what
they want, and that's what I said, but there's no
way that I would okay an installation like that without
a analysis, a pool calculation analysis that's taking into account
the weight of the package, the size okay, the length,

(47:13):
and the bends in the direction pool which weighs the
best whether or not there's an elevation change or you're
pulling up hill, you're pulling downhill. Is gravity going to
be your friend if it's going to be your enemy?
And so obviously they did that and the pool still
came out. Okay, still recommend putting the pool boxes in
just because of code compliance, and anybody gets hurt, you know,

(47:36):
the state will step in and they'll be like, well,
why didn't you follow code? Even if that didn't play
a role in an analysis. Accuracy analysis may save the day.
Not everybody has those certificates for the install but they
may save the day. But at the end of the
day you're still under the scrutiny because you violated the NEC. Okay,

(48:00):
large conductors, anything that's one not larger, you rarely do
need a pull calculation. Vertical pols or offset risers most
certainly need to have a pull calculation. Feeder and service
conductors should be a no brainer in whether it's large
or not. If you're coming in from raceways outside, from
the from the transformer stack down under and end, or

(48:22):
from the switch gear out to feeder locations. In large
building where you're multiple sets, you most certainly should do
a pull analysis just to have that documentation. Industrial interface
requirements there's a lot of utility people who realize they're
outside of the scope of the NEC, but they're doing
a lot of pools, a lot of manhole pools, a

(48:44):
lot of long runs and duck banks and things like that.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Just need to make sure they're not going to have
a problem.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
The last thing you want is a damaged conductor underground
with which you know is going to be submerged.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
It's going to have order in it, okay.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
And so at the end of the day, if the
insulation stays intact, no harm, no foul. If the insulation
gets intact, damage to cracked. For copper, it's a slower
death than it is for aluminum. That allows moisture to
get in it, especially if there's the water has a
lot of elements in it. Then you get a galvanic

(49:18):
action takes place and it rapidly starts to break down.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Over time.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
What we see is three to four months you have
a blowout somewhere. The question is going to come back,
did you do a pull cout? And they're like, oh, man,
I didn't need to do a pull couch. Shit, it
was only filled to twenty five percent. We could go
up to forty percent. There's more than enough room in there.
My question is something blew up. It's going to be
I get it. Did you do a pull colc Okay,

(49:45):
because there's one thing to have enough room, but it's
another thing when you have pulling tension on conductors that
are larger, and your coefficient of friction is high because
you didn't account for it, and it still drags it
around these nineties or these bins that you still run
the risk of sidewall damage. So again, it's one of
those things that you have to think about. Manufacturers are different.
Some manufacturers will say, look, you know, we're going to

(50:07):
have a three hundred volts or less conductors and cables.
I'm going to do a five hundred pounds per radio foot.
And you could have a manufacturer like Prismium and on
co Wire in Southwire, who for example, say well we'll
do a thousand factors some conductors for Prismium that they're
let to go up to twelve hundred based on their publication.
So again it's something that we look at from each

(50:28):
manufacturer and we get validation from the manufacturers and stuff
like that during our analysis. But you know, it's just,
you know, it's better to be safe than sorry for
your pull colcs that type of thing. Now, when you're
taking advantage of the ability to have somebody to do
third party it is pull calculations actually on a submittle

(50:51):
project to something like a GM and Amazon, all those
that facebooks who critically have to keep their systems up.
Big infrastructure facilities, things like that, these big giga plants,
these data centers that are going in all over the country.
They want reliability and they want to make sure. They
don't even like it when the insulation of conductor doesn't

(51:11):
come all the way up to the terminal.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
They want you to wrap it in heat ring. They
just don't like the look of it.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
So I can imagine the assurance that they're going to
feel by offering them a certificate of accuracy on each pool,
meaning that it's been looked at, it's not exceeding race.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
We feel the boxing.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
It definitely has pool boxes where necessary, It has been
analyzed to be within the successful pool range. All these
type of things, and you submit a certificate of accuracy
on this pool based on the information it was provided.
Goes a long way to professionalism. Also avoids any rework
or any potential damage to these conductors when it's done properly.

(51:50):
It also builds confident and inspectors. Inspectors want to see
this stuff. You'll be able to show them certificate on
this run. Say this run right here bears its own
unique certificate of accuracy. Okay, it's a certificate of authenticity
to that that run has been evaluated that type of scenario,
so they know that it's going to meet the raceway field.

(52:10):
They don't even have to worry about it. They know
that it's not going to exceed the bending requirements. They
know all that because in order to get the certificate
of accuracy, everything has to be compliant in that run.
Any deviation from that, you're not going to get the certificate.
And that's important because it's a long way to be
able to provide this, especially on those really big projects.
You want to speed up time and acceptance promoting safety.

(52:33):
It is one of those things in your company to
be your only company and says, look, hey, we're so
confident in our setup of the race of the reels
and everything that we do, but we have a third
party actually do the evaluation. We don't do it in house.
We don't let the design engineer do it because they
don't like to do it for some reason. We don't
let the manufacture of the wire and cable because obviously
they could sway it to they want to sell you wire.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
So you get a.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
Third party to handle this and say yes, no, maybe
this is fine, Okay, this type of thing, and it
saves money and time in the long run because you're
you're you know, you're you're actually having a third party
do it that this is what they do right, and
so again you get it done once you get it
done right.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
That thing.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
So the key here in ending on this show is
you've got to do the math before you do the poll.
You really do, Okay, if you need help in doing that,
you want to hire a third party that does these
calculations for you, gives you insight on it, works with
your engineering design team in order to give their insight.

(53:37):
We're not here to design it. We're not designed professionals.
We're not pees never claim to be. We're educated experts
who have done this for years in different branches. We've
worked with the Inspection of the Department field, We've worked
at the manufacturers field. We've been experts for manufacturers, been
doing these calcs for a long time.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
We have a relationship with the software people that we use.
We help develop it. We can make recommendations based on
the National Electrical Code because we're a bona fide experts
in the NEC. That's what you're getting when you put
together a third party package like that. Okay, so if
you need help in getting these calculations done, that's what

(54:17):
pullspec does. We'll be having a website called pullspec dot
com right now. It's just going to be a kind
of a push to our academy's website until we're getting
the pull spec all branded out. Okay, so thank you
for the patients that you still can reach out to us.
Eventually it will go to a special page on our
current website that if you go to pullspec dot com,

(54:39):
it'll send you right there and that's where you can
reach us until the final website's done. But we want
to get it up there because a lot of people
contact us and we do it anyway, and we never
really thought to make it a division of our corporation,
but there's just so many that we need to do
that now. And what we're going to do is we're
going to analyze attention. We're gonna analyze the fill, we're

(55:01):
gonna analyze the jamming. We're gonna look at the best
direction of the poll based on what you've submitted. We're
gonna look at all the information and give you a
good result and a certificate of accuracy based on the
information or provided that you can utilize and put it
in your submission package or put it into for the owner.
It makes them feel good and you can give it

(55:23):
to the inspectors. It's going to increase the time or
reduce the time of an inspection because when they're walking
these raceways, you can show them the point A, point B.
Whatever this run is has already been certified in that
type of thing from ECA Incorporated using our pull spec product.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
So anyway, that's what we've got. Check it out.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Eventually it will be over on its own website, pullspec
dot com. That's already been taken care of. The only
delay right now is we're going to be sending you
to a specific page with information on it on our
website while we're waiting for the full pullspec dot com
website to be finished out, and it'll have a submission forms,

(56:04):
it'll have everything on there that you need. Don't worry
about that right now. If you want to have a
one on one conversation with us about how we can
do this for you, you want to recommend us to
any corporation you're working with, anybody that hears it we're
more than happy to help you out with this, and
then of course we have other consulting services that we
can help you with whether your help need help a

(56:26):
second set of eyes, for example, on anything that's any
c related. That's what we do as a consulting firm
as well. We will help you with a cable tray application,
opacities for cable tray, all these type of things. But
ultimately we are not stamping anything as an engineer. We
are not doing engineer design. We're consulting. So we're giving
you consulting information based on our experience as experts in

(56:48):
the National Electrical Code and as master electricians that have
done a lot of this and put their hands on
it before, and people that have worked for wiring cable
manufacturers who know wiring cable and so put all that together,
that's what you're actually getting for Pullspec.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Okay, all right, folks, Hopefully they enjoyed this.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Again, this is a little bit of a longer one,
but hopefully you've got some information out of it. If
you're interested in it, check us out. Go to pullspec
dot com. It'll send you to Fasttracksystem dot com at
specific page. Originally, but later it will have its own
separate website, but we wanted to introduce it to you.
Since we're doing them now, you might as well start

(57:27):
doing it formally.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
So that's what we wanted to introduce.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
So if you want to hook up with your and
your large manufacturers, if you want to hook us up
as a partnership with you know, we love to partner
with Encore, Prismium, Southwire Zero, We'd love to partner as
a third party with all of them. We will not
push anybody. We will not we will be totally agnostic
to it. We just will make it a better solution

(57:51):
in order to try to incorporate something called or certificate
of accuracy per pull and that can be used in
many ways. All right, all right, folks, if you're out
there and you're you know, like power design, your large
large contractors, this can simplify and let us do it
rather than you have to worry about it. Because again
I see that a lot of engineers aren't doing it,

(58:12):
and a lot of electric contractors need it, but they
don't do it, and they're trying to get the bill
modelers to do it and that's really not their thing.
So we are third party and there is something to
be said about using third parties. All right, until next time, folks,
stay safe, God blessed, and we'll catch you on another
episode of Master the NEC Podcast.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Piece.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Thanks for tuning into another electrifying episode of the Master
THENEC Podcast. We hope you're feeling more powered up and
ready to tackle the electrical world with the knowledge and
confidence you need to succeed. Remember, in the electrical grade,
knowledge is power, and we're here to make sure you
stay plugged into the latest insights, tips and code updates.

(58:54):
If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave
us a review, and share the podcast with your.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Fellow electricians and industry pros.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Until next time, keep your tools sharp, your circuits clear,
and you're my focused because here at the Master of
the NEC Podcast, we're all about sparking your success. Stay safe,
stay smart, and keep mastering the trade. From all of
us here at Electrical Code Academy. Thank you for all
your support, and we will see you on the next

(59:25):
amazing Master of the NEC Podcast episode.

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Master The NEC | Episode 26 | Pull Calculations are Vital | Talking PullSPEC!

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Master The NEC | Episode 26 | Pull Calculations are Vital | Talking PullSPEC!