December 27, 2025 • 22 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Industry news.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Hopefully it's interesting to you music business worldwide reporting that
Billboard just made free streams worth more on its US charts.
YouTube is not happy and is pulling its data. So Billboard,
of course, you know, they've got their their various charts.
I used to love when I was a kid, because
I was a music industry nerd, probably starting in high school.
(00:27):
I would I remember going to the school library and
I would always look for the newest Billboard magazine and
I would read that. That's how much of a music
industry nerd I was from a very young age. You know,
obviously I played an instrument and I was into playing music,
but I was also very fascinated by the music business.
So I would read Billboard. I wouldn't necessarily read it
cover to cover. There's some things I wouldn't necessarily pay
(00:49):
attention to, but I always like to look at the charts.
You know, you've got the Billboard Hot one hundred, and
you've got you've got all these different charts in Billboard.
And of course now you can access it all online
if you have a subscription, which I don't because I'm
not gonna spend that money. But but the way that billboards.
So the way that Billboard used to back in the day,
(01:09):
back in my day, the way that is, you know,
what would go into the into calculating the chart positions
would be metrics like sales, because back then singles would
you know, you would have singles. You would have you
had Vinyl forty five records if you go way back.
But of course you also had cut singles. If you
(01:31):
remember cus singles. I was in a band called the
Jenkston We used to joke that we were going to
release a single.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
We never did.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
And of course you had CD singles and so forth,
so you had single sales, but you also of course
had radio airplay. Radio airplay would play a big role
in how Billboard would calculate the charts, and I'm sure
it still does obviously. But and also MTV. I don't
know if but I don't think MTV. I don't think
(02:02):
rotation of a music video on MTV was ever a
part of the data that Billboard would use. I could
be mistaken about that, but I don't think that it was.
I don't think they ever.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Used that data.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
As far as the charts, I think it was all
airplay and sales, not not MTV or VH one or
anything like that. Again, I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.
But but so today it's all different, right, because we
have the Internet. So today things that go into Billboard
charts are things like, uh, you know, how many people
are listening to a song online?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Radio airplay is still, of course a big part.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Of it, but but online, what's happening online? You know,
it's much more complicated now, right, It's it's because it
used to be. If you're if the only data points
you're using are you know, you can have a concrete
number you can look at, right, how many did this
track sell in terms of singles?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
How many did it sell in the stores?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And you know radio stage when they report their playlist data,
you know how many spins did this get? Okay, these
are these are metrics that we can use and calculate,
and you know they have whatever formulas they use, obviously
one ways more than the other. But but you figure
it out, right, you have hard numbers to look at,
and I guess you still have hard numbers to look at.
(03:18):
But now it's like streaming, you know, and you've got
many different streaming services and it's a lot, right, So
it's all much more complicated now. One of the ways
that people access music to listen to his YouTube. It's
the easiest way, you know. You can go on YouTube
finds us about anything. You're not going to get as
(03:39):
high a quality file as you would if you actually
purchase a wave file or an MP three. A wave
sounds better than an MP three, a CD sounds better
than either one, and a vinyl record sounds better than
all of it. But but you can go on YouTube
and just listen to music, and that's what a lot
of people do. That's how a lot of people discover
(04:01):
new music is YouTube. So here's what's happening. Just give
you some context for what we're talking about here. So
getting back to the story, so YouTube says again this
is from music business worldwide dot com. YouTube says it
will soon stop providing data to Billboard for inclusion in
the US charts, ending a partnership that has lasted more
(04:23):
than a decade. The decision, announced on December seventeenth by
Lee or Cohen, YouTube's global head of music, comes just
one day after Billboard revealed changes to its chart methodology
that will actually narrow the waiting gap between paid and
ad sponsored streams, So the waiting gap, and I did
(04:45):
refer to it, but so different metrics have different weight,
so you might have However, many paid streams might have
a certain weight AD supported streams which are free. You know,
like if you you go to listen to a song
on YouTube, but before you can actually hear the song,
you've got an AD that you have to click skip on,
(05:06):
or you have two ads, one you can't skip and
then the second one you can. That's usually how it
seems to go, right, So that's an AD supported stream,
So that's free. So in theory, paid streams would weigh
more if you're calculating where on the chart this track
is gonna go, this single, you're gonna you know, because
people who are actually paying for the stream or for
(05:28):
the track, I should say, people are like if they're
paying to download it, for example, then you know they
might care about it a little bit more than people
who are just going on YouTube and listening to it
for free, so you weigh that. So so they've narrowed
the gap between in terms of what each of those
metrics weighs paid versus free Essentially okay, under Billboard's current
(05:51):
formula for the Billboard two hundred. One album unit equals
two hundred fifty paid subscription streams or three thousand, seven
hundred and fifty AD supported streams, a one to three
ratio Billboard's new methodology announced yesterday, Well, this was this
(06:13):
one up a few days ago. Announced on December sixteenth,
Titans that ratio to one to two point five, with
one album unit now equally one thousand paid streams or
twenty five hundred AD supported streams. The same ratio is
being applied to the Hot one hundred chart. In other words,
paid streams. This is the This is the important part.
(06:34):
Paid streams will still be weighted more favorably than AD
supported plays, but by a smaller margin than before.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yet, in a statement today Lee or Cohen said the
changes do not go far enough YouTube.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
This is why YouTube is not happy.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
YouTube wants all streams to be counted equally on Billboards charts,
regardless of whether they come from paid subscriptions or add
supported services. Before we go any further what Cohen said,
let me just say this. I would think that that
would be a hell of a lot easier for Billboard.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Right because if they did it that way, if they
took his his suggestion, just stop giving anything more weight
than anything else.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You just count it. You just count it all. Just
the numbers are. What the numbers are. You count it all.
You add it up. There's your numbers. Because it just
seems like it would be a lot easier. Now, maybe
maybe I say that because as someone who's not good
at math, I want math and numbers to be easy.
(07:46):
That's my natural I have a natural impulse. I have
a bias there, right, I want I always want math
and numbers to be easy, because I'm not good at math.
But you know, it does seem like it would be simpler, right,
It'd be a lot more efficient. I mean, they still
I can't imagine how many data analysts Billboard has working
(08:08):
for them. I'm sure it's a lot. But here's what
Cohen said in his statement. Though, he said quote Billboard
uses an outdated formula that weights subscription supported streams higher
than ads supported. This doesn't reflect how fans engage with
music today and ignores the massive engagement from fans who
(08:30):
don't have a subscription. We believe every fan matters and
every play should count equally. Therefore, after January sixteen, YouTube
data will no longer be delivered or factored into the
US Billboard charts unquote. Now, in thinking about that, how
(08:56):
does that affect How does that affect artists and.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Labels and.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Everybody who has music streaming on YouTube? Well, if you're
getting a lot of streams on YouTube or at well
here's here's something. What if you're an artist who does
not put your music on Spotify because you're mad about
how little Spotify pays out, which is a whole other subject.
(09:22):
I'm not trying to take that side street, but I'm
just it works for this example. Say you're an artist
and there's a lot of them. There's both established artists
who pulled their music from Spotify because they're mad, and
there's independent artists. There's small artists who just don't want
to put their music on Spotify, which I personally think
is a mistake. I think you should still put your
(09:42):
music on Spotify, even if you're not happy that they
don't pay you anything. Because discoverability is a term that
I like to use and that we use in the
industry that you have to make your music discoverable in
order for people to discover it. So you want to
be in as many places as possible. That's my philosophy.
Some people disagree. We've had guests on the show show
who disagree.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's fine. But what if you're not on Spotify for.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Whatever reasons, whatever your reasons are, and so YouTube is
your fallback. YouTube is where people are gonna find you
and you want to be charting. Now, if you're an
unsigned or small independent artist, you know you might maybe
it doesn't matter to you because you know that you're
not going to chart, you know, unless you get like,
unless you blow up, you know, unless you get really big,
(10:28):
you're not going to even have a shot at charting
in Billboard anyway. So maybe it doesn't matter to you.
But if that's the long term goal, it should matter
to you. So if you are not on Spotify, or
if you are on Spotify, but that's not where you're
catching fire. You're catching fire on YouTube. That's where you're
(10:52):
getting the spins, the plays spins more of a radio term,
but the plays, you're the streams on YouTube. You want
those numbers to count, do you not? So this is
this is going to upset some people. So let me actually,
(11:15):
let me read this from Cohen's quote again, because I
just want to make sure. This is the most important
thing that he says here. Streaming is the primary way
people experience music, making up eighty four percent of US
recorded music revenue. We're simply asking that every stream has
counted fairly and equally, whether it is subscription based or
ad supported, because every fan matters and every play should count.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Unquote.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
YouTube was first included in the Billboard Hot one hundred
in February of twenty thirteen. I didn't know that it
was that recent. I mean, we're coming up on twenty
twenty six, so thirteen years ago, I guess. But still
I for some reason I thought it had been even
sooner than that.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
But it wasn't so.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
And that was probably a big decision on Billboard's part
when they when they decided to that. So YouTube was
first included in the Billboard Hot one hundred and February
of twenty thirteen, and was later added to the Billboard
two hundred album chart in January of twenty twenty. Cohen said, quote,
after a decade long partnership and extensive discussions, Billboard are
(12:18):
unwilling to make meaningful changes. We are committed to achieving
equitable representation across the charts and hopefully can work with
Billboard to return to theirs unquote.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
The question.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
This is interesting. So the question of how to wait
differences different types of streams has been contested since Billboard
first introduced tiered streaming values in twenty eighteen. Prior to
that change, all streams, whether from paid services like Apple
Music or ad supported platforms like YouTube, were counted equally.
(12:56):
So there was a time when when Billboard was just
counting them all equally and not waiting one source of
stream versus the other. In a twenty seventeen interview with
Music Business Worldwide, Apple's Jimmy Iavine argued that having YouTube
streams count equally alongside paid for music on Billboards Hot
(13:18):
one hundred disadvantaged artists. Iavine was unequivocal about how his
view about his view that paid streams should carry more
weight on industry charts. He said, quote, I'll put it
this way, people who pay for subscriptions should be advantaged.
(13:38):
The labels owe it to their customers. The most important
thing for labels is to make the paid services compelling
and entertaining, and don't make free services as good as
the paid services. Is that not obvious? Unquote, I don't
necessarily disagree with his life. I understand the argument that
(14:01):
he's making. I think we all can. I just but again,
it's it just makes it. I mean, doesn't it make
it more complicated? The more complicated you make it too,
aren't there more chances for there to be errors? Calculating errors,
math errors? Again I'm thinking of I know I'm approaching
it with a bias of someone who the bias of
(14:23):
someone who doesn't like math. But I'm just saying, I mean,
I think it's I think when you try to weight
different sources, it just makes it complicated, because then how
do you figure out how much you should I mean,
you know, obviously Billboard is trying to figure that out now,
they're changing how much they weigh certain sources of streams.
(14:46):
When the twenty eighteen changes were implemented, paid subscription streams
were weighted more heavily than AD supported streams on both charts.
On the Hot one hundred, paid streams were given full
point value AD supported streams two thirds and programmed streams
half On the Billboard two hundred, it took three times
as many AD supported streams as paid streams to equal
(15:09):
one album unit. Recent data shows that the US recorded
music industries. Overall streaming revenue performance in twenty twenty four
was dragged down by payouts from on demand ad supported
music services, including YouTube and Spotify's Freemium tier. Combined, these
(15:30):
platforms saw their revenue contribution to the recorded music industry
decline in the last year, down one point eight percent
year over year to.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
One point eight three billion.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Meanwhile, on demand paid subscription platforms contributed eleven point six
eight five billion dollars to recorded music right soldiers, up
four point six percent year over year. The disparity and
revenue per stream between paid and free tiers is at
the heart of the debate.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
As Iving said.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
In twenty seventeen, quote, the fact is that free quote
unquote in music streaming is so technically good and ubiquitous
that it's stunning the growth of that. It's stunting the
growth of paid streaming. Two things have to happen. Free
has to become more difficult or restricted, and the paid
services have to get better unquote. Well, free is never
(16:23):
going to become more difficult or restricted. I mean, that's
not going to happen. Ever, Cohen's announcement represents a reversal
from twenty nineteen, when he welcomed YouTube's inclusion in the
Billboard two hundred, calling it a quote very important moment
and making the chart a more accurate representation of what
people are listening to unquote. At that time, Cohen said,
(16:43):
quote genres like Latin hip hop and electronic, which consistently
dominate the YouTube charts, will now be properly recognized for
their popularity. This is another great step in bringing YouTube
and the industry together unquote. YouTube reports in October that
it paid more than eight billion to the music industry
during the twelve months from July twenty four to June
(17:06):
twenty five, covering revenue from both advertising and subscriptions on
the Google owned platform. In his statement December seventeenth, Cohen
directed fans to YouTube's own charts as an alternative to
Billboard's lists. He said, quote, if you're curious about what
music is making waves on YouTube, you can visit our charts.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Unquote. Well that's a good point, I guess. So there
you have it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
The other thing happening very very quickly with YouTube, and
this is from Digitalmusicnews dot com. YouTube is reportedly terminating
channels behind fake AI film trailers our AI music page takedowns. Next,
this is short, but let's do this quickly before we
go to break. YouTube has reportedly started terminating some of
(17:52):
the channels be behind unauthorized artificial intelligence film trailers. Is
a crackdown on AI music accounts coming, though it'll be
up to the new year to deliver an answer, we
can be sure of two related points at present. First,
the video sharing giant has booted screen Culture and k
(18:13):
H Studio, a pair of prominent fake trailer specialists, according
to deadline from the platform all together, so both those
channels have been booted per the same outlet. The terminations
followed considerable pushback against the channels, and, while it probably
doesn't need saying, said pushback was set in motion by
the involved uploads reach and adjacent ability to confuse fans
(18:37):
or at a minimum, distract from proper trailers. So, in
other words, these channels were making their own custom trailers
for movies. Screen Culture allegedly pumped out twenty three fake
trailers for the Fantastic four First Steps, with a few
outranking the actual trailer itself, boasting around seventeen million views
(18:59):
in search results. Long story short, YouTube had reportedly slapped
screen Culture and kh Studio with a monetization time out
which ended when they started adding disclaimers like fan trailer
and parody to their upload titles. But the channels, having
reportedly generated a combined one billion or so of views,
(19:21):
are said to have reverted to their old ways, an
alleged move that then drove the takedowns. Second, we can
also state with confidence that there's a massive amount of
AI audio inundating DSPs and in the process stealing fans,
playlist spots and royalties from real artists. Then we talk
(19:42):
about that on the show all the time. The impact
that AI is having, as most are aware, allegedly infringing
machine made tracks as well as tracks that make too
big a commercial splash typically face takedowns and or threats
of legal action.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
In general.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
However, it's a different story for the advance avalanche of
AI songs with comparatively modest stream and view counts. As
demonstrated by hard data and Curse Rey DSB searches alike.
These creations, while not yet outshining genuine music, are subtily
expanding their presence on platforms such as YouTube and Spotify.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, the thing is.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
As long as your as long as your channel doesn't
get huge, you stay under the wire.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
If you under the radar would be a better way
of putting it right.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So, if your channel gets too big, you might get,
for example, you might get copyright claims or I'm sorry,
copyright strikes. Copyright claims are one thing, copyright strikes or another.
You don't want copyright strikes. You can get copyright claims.
I get copyright claims all the time. I put you know,
this radio show streams on YouTube, and obviously we're playing
copyrighted music. I can never monetize this, that's fine. I
(20:49):
can never monetize the show on YouTube, that's fine. Couldn't
do that anyway. It contains advertising. I don't care about that.
I'm just streaming it to YouTube as it just gives
people another way to enjoy the show. They don't they
don't block my videos, they just won't ever let me
monetize them.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And again I'm fine with that.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
But if if I got big enough where you know,
a label, I mean, I'm I'm a small time. But
if I were like this huge, I mean, if I
were big enough, I wouldn't I would just not stream
the show on YouTube anymore because I would know because
I would see what was coming. Right, if I were
big enough that I got the attention of the labels,
(21:27):
they you know, somebody might issue an actual copyright strike,
and a copyright strike would put my channel in danger.
So I wouldn't do that. You know, I'm at a
level where I you know, I do it. It's fine,
I get copyright claims, but that just means you can
never monetize this video. Fine, I can't monetize any of them.
It's fine.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
But but if you get.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Big enough, YouTube notices or someone notices who will then
complain to YouTube effectively, and then YouTube will begin to
penalize you. You know, the first might be just demonetizing you.
If you have a big channel. That's if you're monetized
and you're making money, you know, you don't want to
lose that. That's the first thing YouTube might do to
(22:09):
you is demonetize your channel. Instead of just demonetizing specific videos,
they might demonetize your entire channel, and then you've just
lost a source of income. And then the next step
might be they're going to take you down. There's a
lot more to this. The article itself is short, but
we're we're getting to that point. Where we got to
hit a commercial break
Industry news.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Hopefully it's interesting to you music business worldwide reporting that
Billboard just made free streams worth more on its US charts.
YouTube is not happy and is pulling its data. So Billboard,
of course, you know, they've got their their various charts.
I used to love when I was a kid, because
I was a music industry nerd, probably starting in high school.
(00:27):
I would I remember going to the school library and
I would always look for the newest Billboard magazine and
I would read that. That's how much of a music
industry nerd I was from a very young age. You know,
obviously I played an instrument and I was into playing music,
but I was also very fascinated by the music business.
So I would read Billboard. I wouldn't necessarily read it
cover to cover. There's some things I wouldn't necessarily pay
(00:49):
attention to, but I always like to look at the charts.
You know, you've got the Billboard Hot one hundred, and
you've got you've got all these different charts in Billboard.
And of course now you can access it all online
if you have a subscription, which I don't because I'm
not gonna spend that money. But but the way that billboards.
So the way that Billboard used to back in the day,
(01:09):
back in my day, the way that is, you know,
what would go into the into calculating the chart positions
would be metrics like sales, because back then singles would
you know, you would have singles. You would have you
had Vinyl forty five records if you go way back.
But of course you also had cut singles. If you
(01:31):
remember cus singles. I was in a band called the
Jenkston We used to joke that we were going to
release a single.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
We never did.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
And of course you had CD singles and so forth,
so you had single sales, but you also of course
had radio airplay. Radio airplay would play a big role
in how Billboard would calculate the charts, and I'm sure
it still does obviously. But and also MTV. I don't
know if but I don't think MTV. I don't think
(02:02):
rotation of a music video on MTV was ever a
part of the data that Billboard would use. I could
be mistaken about that, but I don't think that it was.
I don't think they ever.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Used that data.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
As far as the charts, I think it was all
airplay and sales, not not MTV or VH one or
anything like that. Again, I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.
But but so today it's all different, right, because we
have the Internet. So today things that go into Billboard
charts are things like, uh, you know, how many people
are listening to a song online?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Radio airplay is still, of course a big part.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Of it, but but online, what's happening online? You know,
it's much more complicated now, right, It's it's because it
used to be. If you're if the only data points
you're using are you know, you can have a concrete
number you can look at, right, how many did this
track sell in terms of singles?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
How many did it sell in the stores?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And you know radio stage when they report their playlist data,
you know how many spins did this get? Okay, these
are these are metrics that we can use and calculate,
and you know they have whatever formulas they use, obviously
one ways more than the other. But but you figure
it out, right, you have hard numbers to look at,
and I guess you still have hard numbers to look at.
(03:18):
But now it's like streaming, you know, and you've got
many different streaming services and it's a lot, right, So
it's all much more complicated now. One of the ways
that people access music to listen to his YouTube. It's
the easiest way, you know. You can go on YouTube
finds us about anything. You're not going to get as
(03:39):
high a quality file as you would if you actually
purchase a wave file or an MP three. A wave
sounds better than an MP three, a CD sounds better
than either one, and a vinyl record sounds better than
all of it. But but you can go on YouTube
and just listen to music, and that's what a lot
of people do. That's how a lot of people discover
(04:01):
new music is YouTube. So here's what's happening. Just give
you some context for what we're talking about here. So
getting back to the story, so YouTube says again this
is from music business worldwide dot com. YouTube says it
will soon stop providing data to Billboard for inclusion in
the US charts, ending a partnership that has lasted more
(04:23):
than a decade. The decision, announced on December seventeenth by
Lee or Cohen, YouTube's global head of music, comes just
one day after Billboard revealed changes to its chart methodology
that will actually narrow the waiting gap between paid and
ad sponsored streams, So the waiting gap, and I did
(04:45):
refer to it, but so different metrics have different weight,
so you might have However, many paid streams might have
a certain weight AD supported streams which are free. You know,
like if you you go to listen to a song
on YouTube, but before you can actually hear the song,
you've got an AD that you have to click skip on,
(05:06):
or you have two ads, one you can't skip and
then the second one you can. That's usually how it
seems to go, right, So that's an AD supported stream,
So that's free. So in theory, paid streams would weigh
more if you're calculating where on the chart this track
is gonna go, this single, you're gonna you know, because
people who are actually paying for the stream or for
(05:28):
the track, I should say, people are like if they're
paying to download it, for example, then you know they
might care about it a little bit more than people
who are just going on YouTube and listening to it
for free, so you weigh that. So so they've narrowed
the gap between in terms of what each of those
metrics weighs paid versus free Essentially okay, under Billboard's current
(05:51):
formula for the Billboard two hundred. One album unit equals
two hundred fifty paid subscription streams or three thousand, seven
hundred and fifty AD supported streams, a one to three
ratio Billboard's new methodology announced yesterday, Well, this was this
(06:13):
one up a few days ago. Announced on December sixteenth,
Titans that ratio to one to two point five, with
one album unit now equally one thousand paid streams or
twenty five hundred AD supported streams. The same ratio is
being applied to the Hot one hundred chart. In other words,
paid streams. This is the This is the important part.
(06:34):
Paid streams will still be weighted more favorably than AD
supported plays, but by a smaller margin than before.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yet, in a statement today Lee or Cohen said the
changes do not go far enough YouTube.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
This is why YouTube is not happy.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
YouTube wants all streams to be counted equally on Billboards charts,
regardless of whether they come from paid subscriptions or add
supported services. Before we go any further what Cohen said,
let me just say this. I would think that that
would be a hell of a lot easier for Billboard.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Right because if they did it that way, if they
took his his suggestion, just stop giving anything more weight
than anything else.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You just count it. You just count it all. Just
the numbers are. What the numbers are. You count it all.
You add it up. There's your numbers. Because it just
seems like it would be a lot easier. Now, maybe
maybe I say that because as someone who's not good
at math, I want math and numbers to be easy.
(07:46):
That's my natural I have a natural impulse. I have
a bias there, right, I want I always want math
and numbers to be easy, because I'm not good at math.
But you know, it does seem like it would be simpler, right,
It'd be a lot more efficient. I mean, they still
I can't imagine how many data analysts Billboard has working
(08:08):
for them. I'm sure it's a lot. But here's what
Cohen said in his statement. Though, he said quote Billboard
uses an outdated formula that weights subscription supported streams higher
than ads supported. This doesn't reflect how fans engage with
music today and ignores the massive engagement from fans who
(08:30):
don't have a subscription. We believe every fan matters and
every play should count equally. Therefore, after January sixteen, YouTube
data will no longer be delivered or factored into the
US Billboard charts unquote. Now, in thinking about that, how
(08:56):
does that affect How does that affect artists and.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Labels and.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Everybody who has music streaming on YouTube? Well, if you're
getting a lot of streams on YouTube or at well
here's here's something. What if you're an artist who does
not put your music on Spotify because you're mad about
how little Spotify pays out, which is a whole other subject.
(09:22):
I'm not trying to take that side street, but I'm
just it works for this example. Say you're an artist
and there's a lot of them. There's both established artists
who pulled their music from Spotify because they're mad, and
there's independent artists. There's small artists who just don't want
to put their music on Spotify, which I personally think
is a mistake. I think you should still put your
(09:42):
music on Spotify, even if you're not happy that they
don't pay you anything. Because discoverability is a term that
I like to use and that we use in the
industry that you have to make your music discoverable in
order for people to discover it. So you want to
be in as many places as possible. That's my philosophy.
Some people disagree. We've had guests on the show show
who disagree.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's fine. But what if you're not on Spotify for.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Whatever reasons, whatever your reasons are, and so YouTube is
your fallback. YouTube is where people are gonna find you
and you want to be charting. Now, if you're an
unsigned or small independent artist, you know you might maybe
it doesn't matter to you because you know that you're
not going to chart, you know, unless you get like,
unless you blow up, you know, unless you get really big,
(10:28):
you're not going to even have a shot at charting
in Billboard anyway. So maybe it doesn't matter to you.
But if that's the long term goal, it should matter
to you. So if you are not on Spotify, or
if you are on Spotify, but that's not where you're
catching fire. You're catching fire on YouTube. That's where you're
(10:52):
getting the spins, the plays spins more of a radio term,
but the plays, you're the streams on YouTube. You want
those numbers to count, do you not? So this is
this is going to upset some people. So let me actually,
(11:15):
let me read this from Cohen's quote again, because I
just want to make sure. This is the most important
thing that he says here. Streaming is the primary way
people experience music, making up eighty four percent of US
recorded music revenue. We're simply asking that every stream has
counted fairly and equally, whether it is subscription based or
ad supported, because every fan matters and every play should count.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Unquote.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
YouTube was first included in the Billboard Hot one hundred
in February of twenty thirteen. I didn't know that it
was that recent. I mean, we're coming up on twenty
twenty six, so thirteen years ago, I guess. But still
I for some reason I thought it had been even
sooner than that.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
But it wasn't so.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
And that was probably a big decision on Billboard's part
when they when they decided to that. So YouTube was
first included in the Billboard Hot one hundred and February
of twenty thirteen, and was later added to the Billboard
two hundred album chart in January of twenty twenty. Cohen said, quote,
after a decade long partnership and extensive discussions, Billboard are
(12:18):
unwilling to make meaningful changes. We are committed to achieving
equitable representation across the charts and hopefully can work with
Billboard to return to theirs unquote.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
The question.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
This is interesting. So the question of how to wait
differences different types of streams has been contested since Billboard
first introduced tiered streaming values in twenty eighteen. Prior to
that change, all streams, whether from paid services like Apple
Music or ad supported platforms like YouTube, were counted equally.
(12:56):
So there was a time when when Billboard was just
counting them all equally and not waiting one source of
stream versus the other. In a twenty seventeen interview with
Music Business Worldwide, Apple's Jimmy Iavine argued that having YouTube
streams count equally alongside paid for music on Billboards Hot
(13:18):
one hundred disadvantaged artists. Iavine was unequivocal about how his
view about his view that paid streams should carry more
weight on industry charts. He said, quote, I'll put it
this way, people who pay for subscriptions should be advantaged.
(13:38):
The labels owe it to their customers. The most important
thing for labels is to make the paid services compelling
and entertaining, and don't make free services as good as
the paid services. Is that not obvious? Unquote, I don't
necessarily disagree with his life. I understand the argument that
(14:01):
he's making. I think we all can. I just but again,
it's it just makes it. I mean, doesn't it make
it more complicated? The more complicated you make it too,
aren't there more chances for there to be errors? Calculating errors,
math errors? Again I'm thinking of I know I'm approaching
it with a bias of someone who the bias of
(14:23):
someone who doesn't like math. But I'm just saying, I mean,
I think it's I think when you try to weight
different sources, it just makes it complicated, because then how
do you figure out how much you should I mean,
you know, obviously Billboard is trying to figure that out now,
they're changing how much they weigh certain sources of streams.
(14:46):
When the twenty eighteen changes were implemented, paid subscription streams
were weighted more heavily than AD supported streams on both charts.
On the Hot one hundred, paid streams were given full
point value AD supported streams two thirds and programmed streams
half On the Billboard two hundred, it took three times
as many AD supported streams as paid streams to equal
(15:09):
one album unit. Recent data shows that the US recorded
music industries. Overall streaming revenue performance in twenty twenty four
was dragged down by payouts from on demand ad supported
music services, including YouTube and Spotify's Freemium tier. Combined, these
(15:30):
platforms saw their revenue contribution to the recorded music industry
decline in the last year, down one point eight percent
year over year to.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
One point eight three billion.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Meanwhile, on demand paid subscription platforms contributed eleven point six
eight five billion dollars to recorded music right soldiers, up
four point six percent year over year. The disparity and
revenue per stream between paid and free tiers is at
the heart of the debate.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
As Iving said.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
In twenty seventeen, quote, the fact is that free quote
unquote in music streaming is so technically good and ubiquitous
that it's stunning the growth of that. It's stunting the
growth of paid streaming. Two things have to happen. Free
has to become more difficult or restricted, and the paid
services have to get better unquote. Well, free is never
(16:23):
going to become more difficult or restricted. I mean, that's
not going to happen. Ever, Cohen's announcement represents a reversal
from twenty nineteen, when he welcomed YouTube's inclusion in the
Billboard two hundred, calling it a quote very important moment
and making the chart a more accurate representation of what
people are listening to unquote. At that time, Cohen said,
(16:43):
quote genres like Latin hip hop and electronic, which consistently
dominate the YouTube charts, will now be properly recognized for
their popularity. This is another great step in bringing YouTube
and the industry together unquote. YouTube reports in October that
it paid more than eight billion to the music industry
during the twelve months from July twenty four to June
(17:06):
twenty five, covering revenue from both advertising and subscriptions on
the Google owned platform. In his statement December seventeenth, Cohen
directed fans to YouTube's own charts as an alternative to
Billboard's lists. He said, quote, if you're curious about what
music is making waves on YouTube, you can visit our charts.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Unquote. Well that's a good point, I guess. So there
you have it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
The other thing happening very very quickly with YouTube, and
this is from Digitalmusicnews dot com. YouTube is reportedly terminating
channels behind fake AI film trailers our AI music page takedowns. Next,
this is short, but let's do this quickly before we
go to break. YouTube has reportedly started terminating some of
(17:52):
the channels be behind unauthorized artificial intelligence film trailers. Is
a crackdown on AI music accounts coming, though it'll be
up to the new year to deliver an answer, we
can be sure of two related points at present. First,
the video sharing giant has booted screen Culture and k
(18:13):
H Studio, a pair of prominent fake trailer specialists, according
to deadline from the platform all together, so both those
channels have been booted per the same outlet. The terminations
followed considerable pushback against the channels, and, while it probably
doesn't need saying, said pushback was set in motion by
the involved uploads reach and adjacent ability to confuse fans
(18:37):
or at a minimum, distract from proper trailers. So, in
other words, these channels were making their own custom trailers
for movies. Screen Culture allegedly pumped out twenty three fake
trailers for the Fantastic four First Steps, with a few
outranking the actual trailer itself, boasting around seventeen million views
(18:59):
in search results. Long story short, YouTube had reportedly slapped
screen Culture and kh Studio with a monetization time out
which ended when they started adding disclaimers like fan trailer
and parody to their upload titles. But the channels, having
reportedly generated a combined one billion or so of views,
(19:21):
are said to have reverted to their old ways, an
alleged move that then drove the takedowns. Second, we can
also state with confidence that there's a massive amount of
AI audio inundating DSPs and in the process stealing fans,
playlist spots and royalties from real artists. Then we talk
(19:42):
about that on the show all the time. The impact
that AI is having, as most are aware, allegedly infringing
machine made tracks as well as tracks that make too
big a commercial splash typically face takedowns and or threats
of legal action.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
In general.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
However, it's a different story for the advance avalanche of
AI songs with comparatively modest stream and view counts. As
demonstrated by hard data and Curse Rey DSB searches alike.
These creations, while not yet outshining genuine music, are subtily
expanding their presence on platforms such as YouTube and Spotify.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, the thing is.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
As long as your as long as your channel doesn't
get huge, you stay under the wire.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
If you under the radar would be a better way
of putting it right.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So, if your channel gets too big, you might get,
for example, you might get copyright claims or I'm sorry,
copyright strikes. Copyright claims are one thing, copyright strikes or another.
You don't want copyright strikes. You can get copyright claims.
I get copyright claims all the time. I put you know,
this radio show streams on YouTube, and obviously we're playing
copyrighted music. I can never monetize this, that's fine. I
(20:49):
can never monetize the show on YouTube, that's fine. Couldn't
do that anyway. It contains advertising. I don't care about that.
I'm just streaming it to YouTube as it just gives
people another way to enjoy the show. They don't they
don't block my videos, they just won't ever let me
monetize them.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And again I'm fine with that.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
But if if I got big enough where you know,
a label, I mean, I'm I'm a small time. But
if I were like this huge, I mean, if I
were big enough, I wouldn't I would just not stream
the show on YouTube anymore because I would know because
I would see what was coming. Right, if I were
big enough that I got the attention of the labels,
(21:27):
they you know, somebody might issue an actual copyright strike,
and a copyright strike would put my channel in danger.
So I wouldn't do that. You know, I'm at a
level where I you know, I do it. It's fine,
I get copyright claims, but that just means you can
never monetize this video. Fine, I can't monetize any of them.
It's fine.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
But but if you get.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Big enough, YouTube notices or someone notices who will then
complain to YouTube effectively, and then YouTube will begin to
penalize you. You know, the first might be just demonetizing you.
If you have a big channel. That's if you're monetized
and you're making money, you know, you don't want to
lose that. That's the first thing YouTube might do to
(22:09):
you is demonetize your channel. Instead of just demonetizing specific videos,
they might demonetize your entire channel, and then you've just
lost a source of income. And then the next step
might be they're going to take you down. There's a
lot more to this. The article itself is short, but
we're we're getting to that point. Where we got to
hit a commercial break
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