October 18, 2025 • 37 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
But we do have a couple of fine gentlemen here
joining us via Microsoft Teams. So I'll introduce first someone
longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt,
how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course,
Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and
Eric's been a part of this show off and on
(00:21):
for years now, years and years. So but I did
there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co
host the hour one segment with me this morning, because
we also have with us David Shabbaz is with us,
and David welcome to the show. Of course. David is
an author and a journalist, and of course is the
author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,
(00:45):
the third edition. And so David, we're excited to talk
to you because Eric and I, of course we're both
lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and so I was thrilled
when you reached out to us about coming on the
coming on the show. Oh, and it's great to have here,
and congratulations on the third edition of the book. That's
pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Oh, thank you, and I'm glad to be here with.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
You both absolutely, So. The first thing I'd like to
know from you is why did you Why did you
write the book? What was your inspiration for doing this?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to
keep it a little short. This particular book, I really
wrote this book.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
To further my brother's legacy. My brother Julian.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine,
and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things,
I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's
Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook
that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying
(01:59):
tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition
out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be
good because there had been a few more wrestlers at
that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who
were profiled, and a few more had actually won the
title in twenty two, and so I put that second
(02:22):
edition out, And this is the third, which is larger.
It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition,
and this one is a little more of me, if
you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh that's outstanding, and I really like the way that
you open the book with, well, there's a lot of
information in this book, but you open it with that scene.
And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly as well.
You go back to that scene where Booker T and
you gave the whole backstory, which is great. You go
into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular. Booker
(03:00):
T is in WWE?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Was it?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Had it switched out? I forget? Was it still wwfor
had it changed? At that point?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
The seeing the WWE switch happened in two thousand and two.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It
was Matt was two thousand and three.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha?
Speaker 5 (03:26):
If it was the infamous Booker T Triple.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
H Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two
thousand and three. And I want to say, as a
Triple H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes
on his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it,
and I'm sorry to go into the woods here, I
(03:50):
remember watching it and being at at twenty years old,
being uncomfortable. I mean, sorry to say this, but he
stopped short of calling Booker t boy.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some
racial overtones to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke and
and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it was
intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective it was,
but it was not, you know what I mean, But
but it was it was not subtle. And I thought that, David.
I thought that that was a perfect way to open
(04:30):
the book talking about that specific promo and that storyline,
and of course for wrestling fans who are are familiar
with that whole uh, that whole angle, we know that
the hero did not prevail at WrestleMania and did not
win the title, which a lot of people at the
time thought was a mistake and many people still think
that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you
(04:51):
when you opened the book with that scene, was it
was it obvious to you that that was the one
to go with or or did you have to kind
of make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if
you were to ask me about a racially tinged, to
put it lightly angle in quote unquote modern day WWE,
(05:12):
I would That's probably the first one I would think of.
But I'm curious, I mean, were there other Were there
other options as far as what the opening scene was
going to be in the book to kind of to
kind of set up the book.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No, not at all, because the title of the book
is pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is
saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion,
and a white guy is saying that to a black guy,
that was there was no other choice that was the
appropriate text to use for this.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Absolutely, no, thats no, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah,
you know in Booker T is such a great talent too,
and he was a you know that I used to
love that catchphrase five time, five time, five times, five times,
five time world champion.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And would you actually said six times that promo?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You do? You pointed that out in the book. Yeah,
which was.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Great, David a question, And actually I wanted to do
something to the Booker T story.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
I've actually heard through various shoot interviews.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
That Rick Flair had a lot to do with that promo.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I mean, because Rick Rick was there in the ring
with Triple H though he didn't say anything.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But but he's there in his corner.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
I mean a lot of There are a few African
Americans that have said and even Caucasian wrestlers have said
Rick Flair is by proxy a very uh I don't
want to say racist individual, but definitely has said racist statements.
(06:58):
And I have heard that that notorious promo Rick Flair
kind of fed Triple H things to say at that.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
I think it was, I want to say, and I
could be wrong.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory
can serve you horribly.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
I was Bruce Pritchard.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
That said it on something to wrestle when they were
talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
I believe it was.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yes, I believe he said that Vince and Rick were
kind of behind.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
That wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what do you say, David.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether
that was true or not.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I do know.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I'm a large segment of the black community really likes
Rick Flair. I mean, I don't think that Rick would
purposely try to insult, you know, his fan base like that,
But I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
That is a good point you make David, because the
hip hop community really in a big way, strangely late
in his career, but really embraced has embraced Ric Flair
in a lot of ways. So that's yeah, that's that's
an interesting point.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Too racist by any stretch.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, I want to say that, you know, and David,
I'm sure can back this up.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Uh pro wrestling and.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Up until I would say probably the late aes when
w c W made Ron uh Ron Simmons world champion
was a good boys network so to speak. It really
wrestling has a very complicated history with African Americans and
(08:58):
it's very sad. I mean to the point where you
had a very great talent in w W E name.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Bad News Brown.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler, but
when he Alan Cosage. But when he got to WWE,
they made in this militant African American from Harlem. I
(09:28):
mean things like that, where you hear guys that were
in Stampede that's like no Brown could go.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
Yeah, he was his page in Stampede.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Historically, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in
in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say
until recently, I mean, I think, I think wrestling has
changed a lot, but but yeah, historically there has been
there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I guess my question David is going through all of that,
did you was there ever? I guess anger that rose
up in you when you would I'm sure in your
research you encountered this. Was there ever, that anger that
you're like, Wow, this is awful, this is horrible. I mean,
(10:20):
there's long been the story of Bill Watts in.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
A bathroom dropping.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
That's about Junkyard Dog, and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets
and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE
then WWA.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
So was there ever a sense of anger?
Speaker 4 (10:40):
And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
No? Not at all.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
And I don't want to get off track, but I
really hate.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It when people are driven by negative energy.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah, somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now
I'm gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy,
and I don't think that's sustainable.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
And I don't like.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
My focus comes from my desire and what I want
to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say,
my internal worth and internal value and my focus is
strong enough. I don't need somebody on the outside to
make me upset to make me want to do something
or excel in it. I really hate when people say
I'm using my haters as my motivators.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
That's negative energy for me. So no, that was never
really anything that drove me. And like you said, I've
been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost fifty six.
I've been watching wrestling all of my life. So yes,
I've seen a lot of those stories. I've seen the racism.
(11:52):
So it wasn't really anything that really surprised me in
a way that would make me really upset about it.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, that makes sense, because the book itself is very positive.
You know, you you tell that, you tell the story,
you you share the scene about a booker T and
Triple H to open the book, and then you you know,
you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who
had become many world champions or tag team champions and
so forth, and and it's a very positive read. I
(12:21):
was particularly I I especially enjoyed the part about uh
Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on
television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title,
and I just thought it was so cool, you know,
and they a w c W at the time, you know,
they they did make a kind of a big deal
about you know, Ron Simmons is the first black world Champion.
(12:43):
But it's funny though in the moment watching that, I
wasn't even thinking about that. I was just thinking because
I was I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it
was a surprise, uh, because he was substituting for was
it it was Sting, right, it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah,
So so I thought the whole thing was so cool,
and I thought the finish of that was just really
cool too. Just everything about it was awesome, and I
just remember I popped for it watching it on television.
(13:06):
But but that was one of my favorite parts because
that was a moment that really connected with me. And then, uh,
you know, and of course Ron Simmons went on to
have a great career eventually in u w WUS for Ruke,
and you know, just everything everything he went on to
do was amazing. But but that was such a that
was such a huge moment, and uh, and I love that,
and and I love the way you you know, the
(13:27):
way you really took the time to go into a
lot of detail giving the histories. Some of these black
wrestlers were people I'd never even heard of, and some
of them, obviously I was very familiar with, and some
I was kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd, for example.
I knew who Ernie Ladd was, didn't know much about him.
Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him
reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
I'm I just wanted to say, I'm shocked that there
hasn't been something more in depth done about Earning Lad.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
Just you want to talk about not just.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
To say call him an African American Pro wrestling champion
is in my opinion, it trivializes him because he is
paramount in the territory days.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
He is equally.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
A top I would say, top ten talent all time
in the territory days. If it wasn't for him, you,
I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near as
successful as it was.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Him and Jyde carried that promotion.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Because if they were the top faces and to get
heels over like the Free Birds, Ted DBIASI and all
those guys. You need powerhouse faces. Ernie Ladd just you
talk about a presence. Even watching the old deep footage
(15:07):
I have of him, he walks into the arena and
your eyes are just drawn to him. You're captivated, and
he doesn't even have to say a word.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
So it's shocking to.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Me that no one has done anything like book like
major book wise or documentary wise on him. And to
piggyback on what David said, I think it's because pro
wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on negative,
and there was a lot of negative with Ernie Ladd there.
(15:43):
You couldn't do a dark side of the ring on
Big Head. Yeah, you don't hear guys and shoot interviews
go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd did this,
so there isn't the notorious off.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
But man, you talk about a talent and a guy that.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Could guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell
out the Sportatorium.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I'd always been kind
of aware of him, but didn't know much about him
until reading and reading the book.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Ernie, Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the
word it is thrown around.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Davidating, I'm what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I mean just his his physical presence.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and
and and of course then he would tell you I'm
six foot nine, three hundred pounds you disintimidatingly yea.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
His words and his.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Promos, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, David. I'm curious who who
did your research for the book? Who who's included in
the book? Who you think are and there may be
multiple examples, anyone who you are surprised that people don't
know more about. Is there anyone in the book who
you feel like, Wow, this person really contributed a lot
(17:18):
to professional wrestling, and it's actually surprising that people don't
know more about this individual, or that they're not in
the WWE Hall of Fame for example, or or any anybody.
Do you feel that way about?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Not really, I would.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I would say, well, Ernie Ladd, for one, because the
one thing that I didn't know about Ernie in the
beginning was that in the mid South, Ernie was the
first African American booker.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I mean that shows the kind of confidence that Bill
Watts had in him.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
To let him be a booker. Yeah, he was the first,
so yet that surprised me.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
I would guess also in modern times now, I don't
think people.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
People understand Ron Killings are true. Now.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I think they see the comedy side, and that's what
WWE wants him to keep portraying this this comedic person.
But Ron Killings was like the first African American to
have that n w A title, true, and I don't
think people know that. And so, you know, and I
(18:32):
thought he was going they were gonna let him be
Run Killings when he came out and cut his hair
and everything and said, you know, put some respect on
my name.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm Run Killings. I'm not a joke.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
And all of a sudden they killed that angle because
it sounded really like it was a shoot at first,
and it may have been.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan
with what they're doing with him, which is a which
is a terrible shame because he's incredible, He's incredibly talented.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree Ron
Killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth is
so funny. Truth is so funny, and it's like truth
can work, you know. So I used to watch the
TNA weekly pay per views every week when you had
(19:24):
to run for nine to ninety nine, and he had
matches with AJ Styles and you tell people that and
they're like, okay, so what was it like a five
to seven minute match, And oh no, they were for
ten fifteen minutes in a one hour, two hour program
(19:47):
and they.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Mayn't event it and they tore the grounds down.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
So I think right now, I dare say, Ron aren't
truth has a very implicated legacy, and it's not his fault, right,
We'll just see the comedy guy, and they blew sight
of the matches he had with guys like Jeff Jarrett, Raven,
(20:14):
AJ Stontails, Christopher Daniels. Near the end of it NA, Ron,
him and Christopher Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man
match on pay per view that should have been a
top match that year.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah. There's a lot to there's
a lot to Ron killings that a lot of fans
don't realize, and you know, and to be able to
still perform in the ring at what is he now
fifty three. I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah,
he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
He deserves a lot better than what he's getting.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans
for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time,
you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding
people to this, right I mean, is do you have
plans for a fourth edition or I don't know if
you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's
a lot to do, I know.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
But.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying,
I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on
and on and unless it's.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Something really compelling.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
At least in my thought right now, I thought the
only thing that could be added was the tag team champion,
So I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay,
that's that's kind of gonna put the punctuation on it.
And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans
right now for a fourth edition, but you never know.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Right right, by the way, so this is not this
is not your first book, or while it's a third edition,
but I mean you've you've written other books, right, can
you can you tell us too this a little bit
because I'm curious to learn more about your background because,
as I said, you know, you're an author and journalist,
You've you've done a lot of other things too. I
was looking at your website and I'm curious about more
(22:06):
about your career in a broader sense.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I
was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news
director when I was when I was actually in college,
I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Even before I had graduated.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
My internship at the radio station in Columbia, South Carolina,
uh turned into a job for me. And so for
the last twenty years, I've been a journalism professor because
you don't really, you didn't really make a lot of
money being a journalist until you get, you know, to
(22:57):
the level of NBC National or ABC, you know, one
of the national networks, not really making a whole lot
of money. And not that it's about money, because you know,
you should do what you enjoy doing.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
But yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I've been a college professor for the last twenty years.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I have a PhD in communication, So yeah, that's that's
that's sort of men in an overview.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
One of my books is Public Enemy number one.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Public Enemy number one started as my master's thesis.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
It was on the group Public Enemy and also wrote Yes.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yes, that was a research study on a couple of
their music videos.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric
and I both would be interested in reading that. Very
very cool.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Huh Yeah, guys Enemy fan Fight the Power jh yep
video directed by Spike Lee.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay,
films of Spike Lee.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah. When this show was on in afternoons and we
were doing a lot of politics. When I was an
Afternoon Drive, I would Fight the Power was one of
my go tos. I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely.
Oh that's very cool, very interesting David. Wow.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite? Yes, oh, yes,
the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came out I
think in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Love that movie, David, Before you get into that. When
Matt was on Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment
called classic film Reviews, and for in February we would
do a black history segment where I covered African America films.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
We actually covered Shaft.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
And super Fly and that get did a lot of
conversation that I thought was very good.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement,
not between Eric and I or anything, but but it
was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether
those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It
did spark a lot of conversation that there was very
positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good.
So now I'm curious, David, so what led you into
being a pro wrestling fan? How did you become because
(25:32):
you I assume since you were a kid, right, I
feel like most of us get hooked on this one.
We're children.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
I mean my family watched it, so it was always
in the household.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Mom, dad, grandmother, I.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Mean, everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little
lifelong thing for me.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights Made Event
premiered on NBC and I watched the first you know,
I had seen wrestling before that. I was never particularly
into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday's
main event and something about it hooked me. In fact,
I remember one of the matches. It was a squash match.
It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around. I have
(26:13):
no recollection of who his opponent was, and I just
remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting. He's
just beating the heck out of that guy. I think
the I think the big angle that night was the
Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation in the
Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was that was
what hooked me. And then you know, I've I've been
hooked on it ever since and now Eric and I
(26:34):
even do a podcast together about it called Tough Pumps.
Did I mean, did you ever, like when you started
your career in journalism, did you already have ideas about
writing writing books like this actually writing about pro wrestling.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
No, not at all.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
And like I said, this was really just kind of
trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and
you know this, this wasn't something that he was really
into as well in terms of writing.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
His books at the time was hip hop related.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
He wrote The United States Versus Hip Hop when they
were looking at Public Enemy and Luke Two Live Crew and.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
NWA and those guys, and there was.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the
FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they
sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning
letter to the record labels about those groups. And so
that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute,
you can't, you can't do that. So that was the
(27:46):
kind of stuff that my brother was writing about and.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
He started he wrote that first.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Book in nineteen ninety nine. It came out in nineteen
ninety nine. He started working on it in nineteen ninety
eight because Bobo Brazil died earlier that year, and then
when Jyd died in like July of that year, it
touched him so much that he started doing the research
and wrote that book.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Okay, okay, so that led you to to carrying on
that legacy. That's that's remarkable. Now do you I mean,
how dialed in are you to the current product? Do
you do you watch every week? Do you keep up
with everything or you know, are you are you a
somewhat lapsed fan like some people are, or what's what's
your current level of engagement with wrestling?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I try to keep up with it as much as
I can.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows,
especially with with with a W back out there now
and you know, with having competition, but I do try
to try to keep up as much as I can.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know,
Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't.
We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't.
We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that
we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to
keep up with everything online. But as far as what
we're actually watching, it's, yeah, it is. It's a lot.
It's a lot of content to keep up with.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
So question for David.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new,
I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind.
What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Good question.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I would have to say when I saw in person
rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him
as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came
to a y m c A in my hometown and
(29:54):
I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle and
and that was great for me and the.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
He was wrestling the Great Kabuki.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Fans now may see the I can't think of the
female's name now, the Japanese female now who spits uh
bas oscar? Yes, yes, that came from the Great Kabuki
who used to spit that mist in the person's eyes.
And you know I saw them wrestle and that was
(30:28):
that was like my earliest memory.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Yeah, oh, very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki.
Because I hear so many times p wrestling fans say
the Great Muda when they talk about the Green mess.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Or to Jerry, and it's like and me.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I, I don't want to toot my own horn, I
am I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no,
it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green
mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when
he did the when he did that, it wasn't it
(31:12):
wasn't Great mood A.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you
Great Kabuki.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The
time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the
top of the hour. But David, I want to make
sure everyone knows again where's uh, where's the best place
to keep up with everything that you're doing. And of
course the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,
the third edition which is currently available, where people can
(31:46):
get that. Anything you want our listeners to know about
how to find you and follow you and connect with you.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Probably the best way is my website, which is David L.
Shabaz and my name is there, so just just put
an L in at s H A B A z
z dot com because that's a central hub and you
can find out about me. I have a little about
(32:13):
section there and all of my titles as a book
titles that is as well as if they want to
order it. You can order the book from the website
and it has different online options, whether.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
You want Amazon, the Barnes and Noble, or.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
My author's website where you can get it which is
actually a little cheaper. I have a different distributor who
does that one, so it's it's it's actually a little
cheaper than the other routes. But yeah, through my website
is probably the easiest way.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But it's it's.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Available uh online and in bookstores everywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh, excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining
us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz,
the book is great. I love the book, and uh
and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for
the segment.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I just feel like it was awesome to talk with
someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
You can tell it's a labor a love, and I
love what.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
I really like what you said about not about not
being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt and I
have said this on our podcast several times. In pro wrestling,
I think we're even guilty of it. We focus on
the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious people love
(33:50):
the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it isn't all bad,
you know there, It isn't all awful there For every
you know, I hate to bring them up, for every
Chris Ben maaw there's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you.
(34:14):
It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen
to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Champions like Booker t and.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling,
and the way that you've chosen to do it with
such positivity only helps better the industry that I love.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
So thank you for that, David.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Oh, no problem, thank you, I mean, And that's that
was the spirit that my brother started with. I mean
when he when he wrote it, it was trying to
be celebratory of the wrestlers, and people were asking him
at the time, uh, questions about racism and that kind
of thing, and he was like, this, this is this
book is not about racism and wrestling. It's just trying
(35:13):
to praise those wrestlers and give them their credit.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Because that's that was his initial drive.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
He saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they
just died, you know, and and it's like there's very
little coverage, like nobody's saying anything about it, and so
that's what started him writing. It's always been in that
spirit of positivity and just trying to shed light and
trying to enlighten people.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Absolutely, that is excellent.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
Negativity in anything, right, It's easy to it's.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Easy to be easy. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah. The positivity of it is amazing and really, again,
just I've loved this entire interview. With you to hear
the the positive view and the fact that you brought
up Ernie Ladd being an African American booker, not just
(36:13):
in mid Now, but in general. It just adds to
the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David, maybe if I
can put a little idea in your head Ernie and
Ernie book.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'll consider it.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
He definitely is one of those compelling figures. And you know,
and and he and several other guys around that period.
You know, they wrestled initially in the off season to
stay in shape for football. But Ernie said he made
(36:49):
more money in wrestling, so that's why he stopped playing football.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know that was that was interesting.
That is in the book, and yeah, I thought that
was pretty interesting. Well, we gotta wrap up this segment, guys.
But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World
Champions third Edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much
for joining us, and we'll definitely talk again in the future.
This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
You got it, you got it. And Eric, as always,
thank you, my friend.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Yes, thank you, Matt Thank you, David.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
All right, guys, thank you, and uh for those of
you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come.
Don't go away.
But we do have a couple of fine gentlemen here
joining us via Microsoft Teams. So I'll introduce first someone
longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt,
how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course,
Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and
Eric's been a part of this show off and on
(00:21):
for years now, years and years. So but I did
there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co
host the hour one segment with me this morning, because
we also have with us David Shabbaz is with us,
and David welcome to the show. Of course. David is
an author and a journalist, and of course is the
author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,
(00:45):
the third edition. And so David, we're excited to talk
to you because Eric and I, of course we're both
lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and so I was thrilled
when you reached out to us about coming on the
coming on the show. Oh, and it's great to have here,
and congratulations on the third edition of the book. That's
pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Oh, thank you, and I'm glad to be here with.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
You both absolutely, So. The first thing I'd like to
know from you is why did you Why did you
write the book? What was your inspiration for doing this?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to
keep it a little short. This particular book, I really
wrote this book.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
To further my brother's legacy. My brother Julian.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine,
and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things,
I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's
Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook
that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying
(01:59):
tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition
out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be
good because there had been a few more wrestlers at
that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who
were profiled, and a few more had actually won the
title in twenty two, and so I put that second
(02:22):
edition out, And this is the third, which is larger.
It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition,
and this one is a little more of me, if
you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh that's outstanding, and I really like the way that
you open the book with, well, there's a lot of
information in this book, but you open it with that scene.
And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly as well.
You go back to that scene where Booker T and
you gave the whole backstory, which is great. You go
into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular. Booker
(03:00):
T is in WWE?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Was it?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Had it switched out? I forget? Was it still wwfor
had it changed? At that point?
Speaker 4 (03:07):
The seeing the WWE switch happened in two thousand and two.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It
was Matt was two thousand and three.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha?
Speaker 5 (03:26):
If it was the infamous Booker T Triple.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
H Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two
thousand and three. And I want to say, as a
Triple H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes
on his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it,
and I'm sorry to go into the woods here, I
(03:50):
remember watching it and being at at twenty years old,
being uncomfortable. I mean, sorry to say this, but he
stopped short of calling Booker t boy.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some
racial overtones to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke and
and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it was
intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective it was,
but it was not, you know what I mean, But
but it was it was not subtle. And I thought that, David.
I thought that that was a perfect way to open
(04:30):
the book talking about that specific promo and that storyline,
and of course for wrestling fans who are are familiar
with that whole uh, that whole angle, we know that
the hero did not prevail at WrestleMania and did not
win the title, which a lot of people at the
time thought was a mistake and many people still think
that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you
(04:51):
when you opened the book with that scene, was it
was it obvious to you that that was the one
to go with or or did you have to kind
of make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if
you were to ask me about a racially tinged, to
put it lightly angle in quote unquote modern day WWE,
(05:12):
I would That's probably the first one I would think of.
But I'm curious, I mean, were there other Were there
other options as far as what the opening scene was
going to be in the book to kind of to
kind of set up the book.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No, not at all, because the title of the book
is pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is
saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion,
and a white guy is saying that to a black guy,
that was there was no other choice that was the
appropriate text to use for this.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Absolutely, no, thats no, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah,
you know in Booker T is such a great talent too,
and he was a you know that I used to
love that catchphrase five time, five time, five times, five times,
five time world champion.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
And would you actually said six times that promo?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You do? You pointed that out in the book. Yeah,
which was.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Great, David a question, And actually I wanted to do
something to the Booker T story.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
I've actually heard through various shoot interviews.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
That Rick Flair had a lot to do with that promo.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
I mean, because Rick Rick was there in the ring
with Triple H though he didn't say anything.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But but he's there in his corner.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
I mean a lot of There are a few African
Americans that have said and even Caucasian wrestlers have said
Rick Flair is by proxy a very uh I don't
want to say racist individual, but definitely has said racist statements.
(06:58):
And I have heard that that notorious promo Rick Flair
kind of fed Triple H things to say at that.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
I think it was, I want to say, and I
could be wrong.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory
can serve you horribly.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
I was Bruce Pritchard.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
That said it on something to wrestle when they were
talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania twenty nineteen.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
I believe it was.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yes, I believe he said that Vince and Rick were
kind of behind.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
That wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what do you say, David.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether
that was true or not.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I do know.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I'm a large segment of the black community really likes
Rick Flair. I mean, I don't think that Rick would
purposely try to insult, you know, his fan base like that,
But I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
That is a good point you make David, because the
hip hop community really in a big way, strangely late
in his career, but really embraced has embraced Ric Flair
in a lot of ways. So that's yeah, that's that's
an interesting point.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Too racist by any stretch.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah, I want to say that, you know, and David,
I'm sure can back this up.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Uh pro wrestling and.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Up until I would say probably the late aes when
w c W made Ron uh Ron Simmons world champion
was a good boys network so to speak. It really
wrestling has a very complicated history with African Americans and
(08:58):
it's very sad. I mean to the point where you
had a very great talent in w W E name.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Bad News Brown.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler, but
when he Alan Cosage. But when he got to WWE,
they made in this militant African American from Harlem. I
(09:28):
mean things like that, where you hear guys that were
in Stampede that's like no Brown could go.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
Yeah, he was his page in Stampede.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Historically, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in
in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say
until recently, I mean, I think, I think wrestling has
changed a lot, but but yeah, historically there has been
there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
I guess my question David is going through all of that,
did you was there ever? I guess anger that rose
up in you when you would I'm sure in your
research you encountered this. Was there ever, that anger that
you're like, Wow, this is awful, this is horrible. I mean,
(10:20):
there's long been the story of Bill Watts in.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
A bathroom dropping.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
That's about Junkyard Dog, and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets
and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE
then WWA.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
So was there ever a sense of anger?
Speaker 4 (10:40):
And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
No? Not at all.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
And I don't want to get off track, but I
really hate.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It when people are driven by negative energy.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah, somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now
I'm gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy,
and I don't think that's sustainable.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
And I don't like.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
My focus comes from my desire and what I want
to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say,
my internal worth and internal value and my focus is
strong enough. I don't need somebody on the outside to
make me upset to make me want to do something
or excel in it. I really hate when people say
I'm using my haters as my motivators.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
That's negative energy for me. So no, that was never
really anything that drove me. And like you said, I've
been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost fifty six.
I've been watching wrestling all of my life. So yes,
I've seen a lot of those stories. I've seen the racism.
(11:52):
So it wasn't really anything that really surprised me in
a way that would make me really upset about it.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, that makes sense, because the book itself is very positive.
You know, you you tell that, you tell the story,
you you share the scene about a booker T and
Triple H to open the book, and then you you know,
you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who
had become many world champions or tag team champions and
so forth, and and it's a very positive read. I
(12:21):
was particularly I I especially enjoyed the part about uh
Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on
television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title,
and I just thought it was so cool, you know,
and they a w c W at the time, you know,
they they did make a kind of a big deal
about you know, Ron Simmons is the first black world Champion.
(12:43):
But it's funny though in the moment watching that, I
wasn't even thinking about that. I was just thinking because
I was I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it
was a surprise, uh, because he was substituting for was
it it was Sting, right, it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah,
So so I thought the whole thing was so cool,
and I thought the finish of that was just really
cool too. Just everything about it was awesome, and I
just remember I popped for it watching it on television.
(13:06):
But but that was one of my favorite parts because
that was a moment that really connected with me. And then, uh,
you know, and of course Ron Simmons went on to
have a great career eventually in u w WUS for Ruke,
and you know, just everything everything he went on to
do was amazing. But but that was such a that
was such a huge moment, and uh, and I love that,
and and I love the way you you know, the
(13:27):
way you really took the time to go into a
lot of detail giving the histories. Some of these black
wrestlers were people I'd never even heard of, and some
of them, obviously I was very familiar with, and some
I was kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd, for example.
I knew who Ernie Ladd was, didn't know much about him.
Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him
reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
I'm I just wanted to say, I'm shocked that there
hasn't been something more in depth done about Earning Lad.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
Just you want to talk about not just.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
To say call him an African American Pro wrestling champion
is in my opinion, it trivializes him because he is
paramount in the territory days.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
He is equally.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
A top I would say, top ten talent all time
in the territory days. If it wasn't for him, you,
I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near as
successful as it was.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Him and Jyde carried that promotion.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Because if they were the top faces and to get
heels over like the Free Birds, Ted DBIASI and all
those guys. You need powerhouse faces. Ernie Ladd just you
talk about a presence. Even watching the old deep footage
(15:07):
I have of him, he walks into the arena and
your eyes are just drawn to him. You're captivated, and
he doesn't even have to say a word.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
So it's shocking to.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Me that no one has done anything like book like
major book wise or documentary wise on him. And to
piggyback on what David said, I think it's because pro
wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on negative,
and there was a lot of negative with Ernie Ladd there.
(15:43):
You couldn't do a dark side of the ring on
Big Head. Yeah, you don't hear guys and shoot interviews
go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd did this,
so there isn't the notorious off.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
But man, you talk about a talent and a guy that.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Could guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell
out the Sportatorium.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I'd always been kind
of aware of him, but didn't know much about him
until reading and reading the book.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Ernie, Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the
word it is thrown around.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yeah it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Davidating, I'm what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I mean just his his physical presence.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and
and and of course then he would tell you I'm
six foot nine, three hundred pounds you disintimidatingly yea.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
His words and his.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Promos, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, David. I'm curious who who
did your research for the book? Who who's included in
the book? Who you think are and there may be
multiple examples, anyone who you are surprised that people don't
know more about. Is there anyone in the book who
you feel like, Wow, this person really contributed a lot
(17:18):
to professional wrestling, and it's actually surprising that people don't
know more about this individual, or that they're not in
the WWE Hall of Fame for example, or or any anybody.
Do you feel that way about?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Not really, I would.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I would say, well, Ernie Ladd, for one, because the
one thing that I didn't know about Ernie in the
beginning was that in the mid South, Ernie was the
first African American booker.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I mean that shows the kind of confidence that Bill
Watts had in him.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
To let him be a booker. Yeah, he was the first,
so yet that surprised me.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
I would guess also in modern times now, I don't
think people.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
People understand Ron Killings are true. Now.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I think they see the comedy side, and that's what
WWE wants him to keep portraying this this comedic person.
But Ron Killings was like the first African American to
have that n w A title, true, and I don't
think people know that. And so, you know, and I
(18:32):
thought he was going they were gonna let him be
Run Killings when he came out and cut his hair
and everything and said, you know, put some respect on
my name.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm Run Killings. I'm not a joke.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
And all of a sudden they killed that angle because
it sounded really like it was a shoot at first,
and it may have been.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan
with what they're doing with him, which is a which
is a terrible shame because he's incredible, He's incredibly talented.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree Ron
Killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth is
so funny. Truth is so funny, and it's like truth
can work, you know. So I used to watch the
TNA weekly pay per views every week when you had
(19:24):
to run for nine to ninety nine, and he had
matches with AJ Styles and you tell people that and
they're like, okay, so what was it like a five
to seven minute match, And oh no, they were for
ten fifteen minutes in a one hour, two hour program
(19:47):
and they.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Mayn't event it and they tore the grounds down.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
So I think right now, I dare say, Ron aren't
truth has a very implicated legacy, and it's not his fault, right,
We'll just see the comedy guy, and they blew sight
of the matches he had with guys like Jeff Jarrett, Raven,
(20:14):
AJ Stontails, Christopher Daniels. Near the end of it NA, Ron,
him and Christopher Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man
match on pay per view that should have been a
top match that year.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah. There's a lot to there's
a lot to Ron killings that a lot of fans
don't realize, and you know, and to be able to
still perform in the ring at what is he now
fifty three. I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah,
he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
He deserves a lot better than what he's getting.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans
for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time,
you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding
people to this, right I mean, is do you have
plans for a fourth edition or I don't know if
you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's
a lot to do, I know.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
But.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying,
I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on
and on and unless it's.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Something really compelling.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
At least in my thought right now, I thought the
only thing that could be added was the tag team champion,
So I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay,
that's that's kind of gonna put the punctuation on it.
And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans
right now for a fourth edition, but you never know.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Right right, by the way, so this is not this
is not your first book, or while it's a third edition,
but I mean you've you've written other books, right, can
you can you tell us too this a little bit
because I'm curious to learn more about your background because,
as I said, you know, you're an author and journalist,
You've you've done a lot of other things too. I
was looking at your website and I'm curious about more
(22:06):
about your career in a broader sense.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I
was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news
director when I was when I was actually in college,
I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Even before I had graduated.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
My internship at the radio station in Columbia, South Carolina,
uh turned into a job for me. And so for
the last twenty years, I've been a journalism professor because
you don't really, you didn't really make a lot of
money being a journalist until you get, you know, to
(22:57):
the level of NBC National or ABC, you know, one
of the national networks, not really making a whole lot
of money. And not that it's about money, because you know,
you should do what you enjoy doing.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
But yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I've been a college professor for the last twenty years.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I have a PhD in communication, So yeah, that's that's
that's sort of men in an overview.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
One of my books is Public Enemy number one.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Public Enemy number one started as my master's thesis.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
It was on the group Public Enemy and also wrote Yes.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yes, that was a research study on a couple of
their music videos.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric
and I both would be interested in reading that. Very
very cool.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Huh Yeah, guys Enemy fan Fight the Power jh yep
video directed by Spike Lee.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay,
films of Spike Lee.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah. When this show was on in afternoons and we
were doing a lot of politics. When I was an
Afternoon Drive, I would Fight the Power was one of
my go tos. I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely.
Oh that's very cool, very interesting David. Wow.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite? Yes, oh, yes,
the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came out I
think in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Love that movie, David, Before you get into that. When
Matt was on Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment
called classic film Reviews, and for in February we would
do a black history segment where I covered African America films.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
We actually covered Shaft.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
And super Fly and that get did a lot of
conversation that I thought was very good.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement,
not between Eric and I or anything, but but it
was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether
those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It
did spark a lot of conversation that there was very
positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good.
So now I'm curious, David, so what led you into
being a pro wrestling fan? How did you become because
(25:32):
you I assume since you were a kid, right, I
feel like most of us get hooked on this one.
We're children.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
I mean my family watched it, so it was always
in the household.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Mom, dad, grandmother, I.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Mean, everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little
lifelong thing for me.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights Made Event
premiered on NBC and I watched the first you know,
I had seen wrestling before that. I was never particularly
into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday's
main event and something about it hooked me. In fact,
I remember one of the matches. It was a squash match.
It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around. I have
(26:13):
no recollection of who his opponent was, and I just
remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting. He's
just beating the heck out of that guy. I think
the I think the big angle that night was the
Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation in the
Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was that was
what hooked me. And then you know, I've I've been
hooked on it ever since and now Eric and I
(26:34):
even do a podcast together about it called Tough Pumps.
Did I mean, did you ever, like when you started
your career in journalism, did you already have ideas about
writing writing books like this actually writing about pro wrestling.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
No, not at all.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
And like I said, this was really just kind of
trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and
you know this, this wasn't something that he was really
into as well in terms of writing.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
His books at the time was hip hop related.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
He wrote The United States Versus Hip Hop when they
were looking at Public Enemy and Luke Two Live Crew and.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
NWA and those guys, and there was.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the
FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they
sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning
letter to the record labels about those groups. And so
that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute,
you can't, you can't do that. So that was the
(27:46):
kind of stuff that my brother was writing about and.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
He started he wrote that first.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Book in nineteen ninety nine. It came out in nineteen
ninety nine. He started working on it in nineteen ninety
eight because Bobo Brazil died earlier that year, and then
when Jyd died in like July of that year, it
touched him so much that he started doing the research
and wrote that book.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Okay, okay, so that led you to to carrying on
that legacy. That's that's remarkable. Now do you I mean,
how dialed in are you to the current product? Do
you do you watch every week? Do you keep up
with everything or you know, are you are you a
somewhat lapsed fan like some people are, or what's what's
your current level of engagement with wrestling?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I try to keep up with it as much as
I can.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows,
especially with with with a W back out there now
and you know, with having competition, but I do try
to try to keep up as much as I can.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know,
Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't.
We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't.
We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that
we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to
keep up with everything online. But as far as what
we're actually watching, it's, yeah, it is. It's a lot.
It's a lot of content to keep up with.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
So question for David.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new,
I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind.
What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Good question.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I would have to say when I saw in person
rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him
as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came
to a y m c A in my hometown and
(29:54):
I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle and
and that was great for me and the.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
He was wrestling the Great Kabuki.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Fans now may see the I can't think of the
female's name now, the Japanese female now who spits uh
bas oscar? Yes, yes, that came from the Great Kabuki
who used to spit that mist in the person's eyes.
And you know I saw them wrestle and that was
(30:28):
that was like my earliest memory.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Yeah, oh, very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki.
Because I hear so many times p wrestling fans say
the Great Muda when they talk about the Green mess.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Or to Jerry, and it's like and me.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I, I don't want to toot my own horn, I
am I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no,
it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green
mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when
he did the when he did that, it wasn't it
(31:12):
wasn't Great mood A.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you
Great Kabuki.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The
time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the
top of the hour. But David, I want to make
sure everyone knows again where's uh, where's the best place
to keep up with everything that you're doing. And of
course the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions,
the third edition which is currently available, where people can
(31:46):
get that. Anything you want our listeners to know about
how to find you and follow you and connect with you.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Probably the best way is my website, which is David L.
Shabaz and my name is there, so just just put
an L in at s H A B A z
z dot com because that's a central hub and you
can find out about me. I have a little about
(32:13):
section there and all of my titles as a book
titles that is as well as if they want to
order it. You can order the book from the website
and it has different online options, whether.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
You want Amazon, the Barnes and Noble, or.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
My author's website where you can get it which is
actually a little cheaper. I have a different distributor who
does that one, so it's it's it's actually a little
cheaper than the other routes. But yeah, through my website
is probably the easiest way.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But it's it's.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Available uh online and in bookstores everywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh, excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining
us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz,
the book is great. I love the book, and uh
and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for
the segment.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I just feel like it was awesome to talk with
someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
You can tell it's a labor a love, and I
love what.
Speaker 4 (33:24):
I really like what you said about not about not
being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt and I
have said this on our podcast several times. In pro wrestling,
I think we're even guilty of it. We focus on
the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious people love
(33:50):
the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it isn't all bad,
you know there, It isn't all awful there For every
you know, I hate to bring them up, for every
Chris Ben maaw there's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you.
(34:14):
It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen
to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Champions like Booker t and.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling,
and the way that you've chosen to do it with
such positivity only helps better the industry that I love.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
So thank you for that, David.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Oh, no problem, thank you, I mean, And that's that
was the spirit that my brother started with. I mean
when he when he wrote it, it was trying to
be celebratory of the wrestlers, and people were asking him
at the time, uh, questions about racism and that kind
of thing, and he was like, this, this is this
book is not about racism and wrestling. It's just trying
(35:13):
to praise those wrestlers and give them their credit.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Because that's that was his initial drive.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
He saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they
just died, you know, and and it's like there's very
little coverage, like nobody's saying anything about it, and so
that's what started him writing. It's always been in that
spirit of positivity and just trying to shed light and
trying to enlighten people.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Absolutely, that is excellent.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
Negativity in anything, right, It's easy to it's.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Easy to be easy. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah. The positivity of it is amazing and really, again,
just I've loved this entire interview. With you to hear
the the positive view and the fact that you brought
up Ernie Ladd being an African American booker, not just
(36:13):
in mid Now, but in general. It just adds to
the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David, maybe if I
can put a little idea in your head Ernie and
Ernie book.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'll consider it.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
He definitely is one of those compelling figures. And you know,
and and he and several other guys around that period.
You know, they wrestled initially in the off season to
stay in shape for football. But Ernie said he made
(36:49):
more money in wrestling, so that's why he stopped playing football.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know that was that was interesting.
That is in the book, and yeah, I thought that
was pretty interesting. Well, we gotta wrap up this segment, guys.
But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World
Champions third Edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much
for joining us, and we'll definitely talk again in the future.
This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
You got it, you got it. And Eric, as always,
thank you, my friend.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Yes, thank you, Matt Thank you, David.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
All right, guys, thank you, and uh for those of
you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come.
Don't go away.
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