September 25, 2023 • 28 mins
This summer, viewers tuned into The Today Show to find NY Times Best Selling author Steven Rowley enjoying his chat about his latest novel, The Celebrants, as an official Today Show Read with Jenna Book Club pick. As part of his mega book tour that took over a month, he was in the spotlight as never before, having earned his way with his previous novels, Lily and the Octopus, The Editor, and The Guncle, each earning a number of accolades from critics and readers alike. Not a bad start for having published his first book at the age of 45. Each novel is masterfully crafted, with the inclusion of queer characters so perfectly woven into the story, the books are not limited to the LGBTQ community but rather appeal to all audiences while telling our stories.
In this episode, we chat about his early writing as a kid, the critic and audience appeal of his work, healing through grief, aging in the gay community, life after death, his creative process in developing his characters, his marriage with fellow writer Byron Lane, the power of friendship, touring the nation, the future of The Guncle, his message to the LGBTQ community, and so much more. Girl, we get deep!
Hosted by Alexander Rodriguez.
You can follow Steven on Instagram at @MrStevenRowley and check out our in-depth chat with him in the current issue of Metrosource on newsstands or at Metrosource.com
In this episode, we chat about his early writing as a kid, the critic and audience appeal of his work, healing through grief, aging in the gay community, life after death, his creative process in developing his characters, his marriage with fellow writer Byron Lane, the power of friendship, touring the nation, the future of The Guncle, his message to the LGBTQ community, and so much more. Girl, we get deep!
Hosted by Alexander Rodriguez.
You can follow Steven on Instagram at @MrStevenRowley and check out our in-depth chat with him in the current issue of Metrosource on newsstands or at Metrosource.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
This is Metrosource Mini, the officialpodcast to Metrosource magazine and home of short
form interviews with your favorite personalities fromthe LGBTQ world and beyond. Quick,
fun and informative. It's Metrosource onthe go, out in proud since nineteen
ninety. Welcome to Metrosource Minis.I'm your host, Alexander Rodriguez, writer
(00:27):
for Metrosource and queen of the podcast. What a complete thrill and enjoy the
summer. To turn on the TVfrom my usual morning viewing of The Today
Show to find New York Times bestselling author Stephen Rawleigh and join his chat
about his latest novel, The Celebrants, as an official Today Show read with
Jenna book Club pick as part ofhis mega book tour that took over a
month. He was in the spotlightas never before, having earned his way
(00:51):
with his previous novels Lillian, theOctopus, The Editor, and The Uncle,
each earning a number of accolades fromcritics and readers alike, not a
bet start for having published his firstbook at the age of forty five.
Each novel is masterfully crafted with theinclusion of queer characters so perfectly woven into
the story. The books are notlimited to the LGBTQ community, but rather
appeal to all audiences while telling ourstories. In this episode, we chat
(01:15):
about his early writing as a kid, the critical and audience appeal of his
work, healing through grief, agingin the gay community, life after death,
his creative process in developing his characters, his marriage with fellow writer Byron
Lane, the power of friendship,touring the nation, the future of the
guncle, his message to the LGBTQcommunity, and so much more. Girl
(01:38):
We get deep check it out.So I want to know what life was
like growing up in Portland. Whatkind of kid were you? Oh,
we're going way back, we are, Yeah, Portland, Maine. It
was a great place to grow up. Actually, you know, I have
a lot of good memories from there. Of course, as I entered high
school and my teenage years, wouldn'twait to get out of Maine and part
(02:02):
you know, because at the timeit seemed like, you know that,
you know, gay men in particularhad to leave in order to come out
and be themselves wherever they grew up. But you know, as a kid,
I really loved it. I wasalways a writer. I think I
used to write short stories, andmy dad would bring him into his office
and photo copy them, and Iwas like, wait, there can be
(02:23):
more than one copy of something Iwrite. And I think a little light
bulb went off then. But youknow, I always thought that I wanted
to be a writer, and yetMaine felt very far away from from publishing,
and I thought, maybe you haveto be a kid who grows up
in Manhattan or you know, havea society name or something to be a
(02:45):
writer. But then lurking in thebackground, you know, was Stephen King
in Maine. And so I wasalso that kid who, like, as
soon as I graduated from the children'sroom in the library, you know,
went straight for Stephen King. Hadread like everything he wrote too, So
I was already like the loner,creepy horror kid too, Steve, When
I have to tell you, that'sexactly my story I went. I started
(03:06):
reading when I was super, superyoung. My mom had me reading even
before I was going and into kindergarten, Like that's just what. But I
was reading Stephen King by like thethird grade, and I read every single
thing he could possibly put out.Yeah, unfortunately for us, it was
a lot, even even when Iwas young. But you know, thank
goodness for my you know, mymom too. You know, I have
(03:28):
the career I have today in partbecause you know, she insisted I have
a public library card and brought meregularly to use it. So grateful for
that. Now your books have beenmet with such success critically, awards,
wise readership. What do you thinkit is about your writing that people respond
to so much? Uh? Youknow, if I had an exact answer
(03:52):
to that, I would just ridethat secret sauce all the way, you
know, to retirement. I dothink, you know, there's an honesty
about the difficulty in life, andI do write a lot about grief and
grieving, but in a way thatfeels hopefully uplifting and also funny, because
humor has always been the way throughfor me, for through every difficult time,
(04:15):
and I think for the gay communityat large, you know, it
has been such a coping mechanism throughyou know, years of bullying and then
aids and you know, rejection fromour own families and building found families,
which is another theme I think inmy work, and so you know,
I don't know, but I thinkthat grief in particular can feel very isolating
(04:40):
when we're in the throes of it. I know you've suffered a loss recently,
but which I'm very sorry about.What the truth of the matter is
like, it's such a uniting partof the human experience. You know,
if we're fortunate enough to love,we're going to lose eventually. And uh,
you know, I don't there's somany people have been there, uh,
(05:03):
And I don't know why there's notmore sort of communal understanding of grief,
you know, particularly the last coupleof years. I think, you
know, we've lost so much asa you know, not only just in
the US or worldwide, you know, so many, so much loss,
and if it's not even just theloss of a person, it's the loss
of time, you know, andcertainly togetherness. And I don't think we're
(05:27):
dealing with that quite as head onas we should be, one hundred percent
agree. You know, when somebodyhas experienced loss or grief, people don't
know what to say. You can'treally talk about it because you know,
it's like that record scratch in aroom, you know. But everybody has
suffered grief at some point in theirlife, and if you haven't, you
are certainly bound to. And soI don't know why it has to be
(05:51):
that sort of record scratch moment likewhy can we not all united? You
know, sort of around it andso you know the extent that this is,
you know, a country that's verydifficult to deal with a lot of
say, you know, we're veryimmature on a lot of issues, you
know, but grief is sort ofone of them. Would rather not talk
(06:11):
about it than talk about it.But to the you know, you know,
hopefully my books feel like a placewhere people can go and you know
that there's some healing in reading them. Well, it's funny that you say
that I literally wrote down there's thisrunning theme or inclusion dealing with grief and
loss. But somehow the books aren'tdepressing. They're emotional for sure, but
they're uplifting and optimistic and it's youknow, how does joy come from that?
(06:35):
From from that kind of grief?Now, because your books do have
this running theme, why are thesewhy are you putting this theme into a
lot of your work? Is itfrom your own personal grief and is it
it's how you're working through your griefor it's because like you said, it's
just a part of life. Ithink you know, it's just a part
(06:56):
of life. For me, Ihaven't suffered loss any more more than you
know, than any I haven't livedin particularly tragic life. I have obviously
lost, and most recently before writingthis book, I lost one of my
best friends from from college. Andthere's something unique about losing a close contemporary
for the first time that makes yousort of question your own mortality in a
way. But you know, Ithink it stems back to some trauma that
(07:21):
we don't really talk about, whichis you know, for particularly for a
gay man my age. I'm fiftytwo. I came out thirty years ago,
you know, in the very earlynineteen nineties, when more men were
dying of AIDS than you know,even in the nineteen eighties, and so,
you know, when I came out, I assume that life would be
(07:44):
very sort of lonely and sad andshort, and I think there's you know,
inherited trauma from that. When theopposite has been true. You know,
life has been full of community forme and very joyous and and comparatively
long from what I was expecting.And so I think I'm still working through
(08:05):
that that trauma. And I alsotry to write about gay men in middle
age now too, because there isn't. You know, I'm missing that generation
above me, you know, forthose who are sort of five or ten
years above me. We've we've lostso many of those beautiful voices. And
so I'm also trying to like createexamples of or work through what it's like
(08:26):
to age, you know, hopefullygracefully as as a gay man. Also,
you know, I'm very curious deathis a character in in in your
work. I'm just curious, personally, do you believe in life after death?
Uh? I certainly not as wecome to understand it through any organized
(08:48):
religion, particularly Christian religion. Ido. I do not, And so
there's that's both, you know,But I'm also not one to say I
know what happened firmly either. I'mcertainly open to it, but I but
it just feels a little convenient andmagical for me. But I do try
(09:11):
to use that instead of finding asort of hopelessness in that, redirecting that
towards using my time, you know, valuing every minute of my time here
and making the most of this lifeand the people who I'm lucky enough to
be surrounded with and not taking themfor granted, because you know, as
(09:35):
far as I'm operating, as faras I know, this is, this
is my time, and I'm gonnayou know, I'm gonna grab it.
Your your most recent book, TheCelebrants. I read it in one day.
I just I just couldn't put itdown. Of course, the book
deals with a group of friends whobecome each other's family that spans decades of
their lives. How is it thatyou capture characters so well? And what
(09:58):
is your career a process? Whencreating your characters? I mean, these
people leapt off the page in thevery first two pages. I knew who
these people were. I love that. I love that so much. Well,
you're write in that. I dotry very hard. You know.
The opening of all my books isprobably what I come to. You know,
I have a drafted but I cometo the very last thing that I
(10:20):
do is work on that opening again, you know. And for my previous
book, The Uncle, the openingwas the last, the very last thing
that I wrote. And so youknow it comes from me having to know
the characters, I think, reallyto introduce them to you right off the
right off the bat. You know, I do have a close knit group
of college friends, which these friendsare in the celebrants. These are not
(10:43):
my college friends. I like toreassure my friends there's no one to one
parallel. But you know, Ido always say, like, God help
you if you're related to or friendswith a writer, because we are as
you know, we will take littledetails from life. And I think it's
those you know, it's those reallife details that you layer into these very
(11:03):
fictional people that you create that helpmake them feel real and hopefully hopefully leap
off the page. But I hadgreat fun concocting this particular group of of
characters, and you know, it'smy most diverse because it's an ensemble,
you know, when I wanted thefriends to be as diverse as my friends
(11:24):
are in real life. But thatmeant truly writing characters for the first time
that were really different from me inmy in my perspective. So it involved
sensitivity readers for the first time.It involved you know, other people sort
of reading and getting perspectives from fromothers, so that all the characters you
(11:45):
know felt you know, real andalive and waited equally to the one that
may or may not be based onme. Well, and what I loved
about the celebrance is that you didn'tglamorize your characters. They are flawed,
They fight, they love, theycry, they feel defeat. Did they
feel reborn? All these things goingon and we work through it with these
characters. Now you're writing that,how did writing this book affect you?
(12:09):
When when you typed your last wordand you checked your last word and you're
done, How did that process affectyou personally? Yeah? Well sor I'll
get back to that in a second. There is something because I've heard some
pushback from readers like, you know, well, they fight and they squabble.
It's like, why are these peoplefriends? I'm like, well,
wait, you don't fight with yourfriends a little bit. I mean,
there's something particular about long standing friendships. You know, those people who knew
(12:31):
you before you were married or beforeyou had your career and you were full
of hopes and dreams and you didn'tknow what life was going to be and
still know you and love you.Now, those are really special friendships because
I think those are the people alsothat you don't you can let your guard
down with them. You don't haveto present as your most perfect self around
(12:52):
those people, which means you canbe messy sometimes. And these characters certainly
are, and trusting that these friendsare going to still love them at the
end end of the day. Youknow, for me, it was,
you know, creating this friendship groupand now I'm you know, slightly outside
of them as the author, butI felt like a member of the group
in a way. And so Ithink particularly these were very difficult characters to
(13:15):
say goodbye to. And I didhave a moment because I also narrated the
audio book, and I had amoment finishing that. You know, I
live here in Palm Springs and theyrented me a recording studio, professional recording
studio, right in the heart oftown, and you know, Palm Springs,
U it is hot, right,and the first thing they have to
(13:35):
do is turn off the air conditioningbecause the microphone will pick up the hum
from the air condition owner. Irecorded this probably late April, about a
month before the book came out,so uh, not at you know,
not one hundred and ten degrees yet, but still very warm. And I
remember the audio engineer looking at meas I finished recording the last page.
(13:56):
He was like, oh, lookat you. You're crying, and I'm
like, I'm not crying. I'mwedding, you know. But what I
didn't want to tell was I wasI was also crying because you know,
that was a moment where I thought, oh, wow, that's going to
be That's the last time I'll probablyever read this book from cover to cover.
And there was a real sort ofmoment of having to say goodbye to
(14:18):
these these characters that I come tolove so much. I have to tell
you what a thrill it was turningon the TV and see you splashed over
the Today Show, a show Iwatched every single morning. The media tour
for the celebrants has been insane.You've been covered by every every outlet and
you've just finished your tour. Whatwas it like going through this tour?
(14:41):
Are you exhausted? But also whatkind of feedback did you get from from
everybody from from having read this book? Uh, you know, it's truly
lovely. And I was on theroad for a full month. And so
it evolved over over time because rightthose first couple events, those long bunch
of events, you're getting people thefirst few days the books are out,
(15:03):
so they have you know, there'sno way they could have read the book
already by the end of the tour. I was meeting people who had read
the book already and we're coming outto see me because they had enjoyed it.
And that was you know, that'svery rewarding in its own right.
So to be able to talk topeople about their own friendships and their own
grief and how they connected with thebook, you know, is always deeply
(15:26):
rewarding. And I got to go. I didn't get to tour for my
last book, The Gunpoll, becauseit came out, you know, just
as sort of vaccines were rolling onand whatnot, and so everything was zoom.
And so I didn't get to tourfor that. And and that was
the book that really I think elevatedmy career. That was the one that
caught on in a way. SoI was meeting it was incredibly moving too,
(15:50):
because I got to go. Thiswas the biggest tour I've ever done,
and I got to go places whereI wouldn't have been sent before,
places you know, where I didn'thave necessarily a base of support. Whereas
you know, my first couple ofbooks are like where do you have friends?
Where do you have a family thatmight come out and see you?
And now they're sending me you knowto place like Louisville, Kentucky, and
I'm like, I don't know anyonein Kentucky. But two hundred people came
(16:11):
and it was so beautiful and everyonewas so grateful, you know, particularly
the queer community there. They're like, no one comes to Kentucky. So
it was it was great and itfelt like a real celebration, and it
was, you know, incredibly meaningful. When I came home, I thought,
oh, I'm going to sleep fora month. But after about thirty
six hours, I was like,I need where When can I go back
(16:33):
out on the road. I needthe adoration. It's a sickness, Alexander,
It's a sickness. I'm stuck withit. The book you mentioned,
The gun Cale, also a bookI read in one day. I just
I just couldn't put it down.About a gay uncle, of course,
but the audience for the book wasfar beyond the LGBTQ community. You proved
(16:55):
that mainstream readers will read a bookcentered around a gay character. Was there
ever any part of you early onafraid to make your books quote unquote so
gay as to limit your readership oryour writing career? Uh? No,
I think you know. I struggledfor a long time. Uh you know,
I didn't publish my first book tillI was forty five, and so
(17:18):
it took me a lot. Ittook me a long time to break through.
In fact that there were long stretchesof time where friends and family argue,
you're not law school maybe or somethingelse. You know, it doesn't
look like this is going to happen. But you know, the flip side
of that is that enough change sortof in the in the culture. Uh.
You know, I wasn't publishing queerbooks in the nineteen nineties when I
(17:41):
was, you know, first startingwriting. You know, I wasn't I
wasn't publishing at all, It's whatI'm saying, you know, So at
that time it might have been certainlymuch more of a concern that books were
sort of relegated to a queer sectionin a bookstore or only at you know,
queer own bookstores, or certainly didn'thave the ability to break out in
(18:03):
mainstream. I certainly wouldn't have beentalking about them on the Today Show.
And so, uh, you know, it was just a fortune of of
you know, the moment in timewhen I broke through, and also the
culture had changed enough, but there'sa real backlash now to that too.
That yes, The Uncle is abook that has been embraced broadly and read
(18:26):
widely. However, since we havedon't say gay bills and stuff popping up
in Florida, Like, I cansee the evolution, right, So The
Uncle came out in May of twentytwenty one, don't say in twenty twenty
two. I had no problems forthat first year, but then suddenly,
once you know, that policy passedin Florida, I'm you know, was
(18:49):
the victim of a targeted, youknow, Twitter hate campaign because it's about
it, you know, a gayman caring for you know, being the
caretaker for his niece, nephew,for young children, and so you know,
all sorts of insults were hurled atme for for daring to write a
book that that celebrated everything that uhthat the queer community can offer children down
(19:12):
from from empathy and understanding and loveof self and total acceptance of self.
And so you know, it's it'sa tough moment in the in the culture
too. So you know, I'veget both both sides of it. An
amazing part of your real life story, of course, is your husband another
(19:33):
writer Fresh Office sophomore novel Big GayWedding by Relane. We featured Byron and
our pride issue of Natural Source.How did two writers exist in the same
household? How does that work?Not only do we exist in the same
household, we had the same publicationday for our new novels. Like,
it really is something that I thinka lot of people would assume was a
(19:55):
nightmare. But you know, Ithink we're good at you know, first
of all, I like I Ilike it personally. You know, our
one our house is quiet, whichis nice. Yeah, exactly. Well,
yeah, Byron might have a differentanswer because I tap too loudly.
I'm a loud loud typists. Butuh, you know, and we each
(20:17):
have an understanding of the job.It's a very it can be. Novel
writing a very solitary endeavor. Andthe weird thing is most people, most
novelists, don't get to see anybodyelse do the job, Like, oh,
how often do you talk to youragent or to your editor? Or
what does your cover look like?Or what do you do when you don't
like it? Or you know,all these sort of behind the scenes things,
(20:37):
And now like we can see eachother and help each other through that,
you know, and give each otheradvice to navigate the publishing process,
which is can be a very emotionallyfraud. But you know, in terms
of the craft too, even whenwe're just writing, you know, we
are each other's first reader, andI think the challenge is just knowing what
(21:00):
he's asking for in the moment.Is he asking me to read something as
a spouse, in which case Ijust want to be encouraging. Is he
asking me as another writer and lookingfor notes? So it's just to sort
of be sensitive about about the rolethat we're you know, the hat that
we're wearing at any given moment.And I would imagine too with two creatives,
sometimes you just need that alone timeto clear your head from a day
(21:21):
of writing. Yeah, And he'llunderstand exactly. It's not something you can
turn off just because his dinner time. Sometimes I'll be still working through something
and which means I'm in my headand quiet, and instead of taking offense
at that, you know, hecertainly understands the process and vice versa.
You have been by Byron's side throughhis cancer, which he talks about and
(21:42):
we've covered in our interview with him. What advice do you have for someone
who has a loved one going throughcancer or illness? How do you stay
strong through that? And it's actuallya theme that we saw in the celebrances
as well. Yeah, you know, I don't know that I'm the best
one to ask. I think,you know, we were given it was
(22:06):
an interesting moment. Byron had firstdiagnosis in twenty fifteen and a reoccurrence in
April of twenty twenty, just asthe world had shut down, and so
I was not because of because ofCOVID policies, I was not able to
be by his side during his chemotreatment. I would have to drop him
at the hospital every morning and pickhim up and you know, at the
(22:27):
end of the day, and Ijoke now that it's always saved our relationship,
Like I would have been fussling overhim too much to durn the day.
And it was probably better that hehad was you know, had the
space and the freedom to just sortof go through that without me hovering.
But that said, I do,you know, I think it's you know,
(22:48):
important that you give yourselves as aas a caretaker, the room in
the space to recharge and refill yourbatteries because you you know that's essential to
step away so that you can comeback and be there strongly. I have
to know, are you already atwork on your next book? I am,
(23:12):
I am. I'm trying to.You know, we're another sort of
unique moment here in that the youknow, I'm also a proud member of
the w g A, which ison strike, and so I'm trying to
balance out, you know, notyou know, there's a complete pause on
all my film and television projects,and so focusing on another novel right now,
which there is. There is noguild that covers covers novel writing.
(23:33):
There's also no dental insurance, youknow, the writing novels either, So
I try to make a balance ofboth. But so, yeah, working
working on another novel right now.Is there anything that you can give us
a little hint at I keep thesethings pretty close to the chest. I
do think it will be out nextyear. Uh yeah, I've been.
(23:56):
I've been working out for a littlebit now. And then the other thing
I can say is I think readersof mine will be very excited. I'm
ready, I'm ready. Okay,good. And finally, I want to
know what your message is to theLGBTQ community. This Pride season, Oh
(24:17):
my goodness, you know, staystrong, celebrate right. I wrote a
book with the theme of celebrating andand celebrate the people in your life who
mean something to you. You know, we're all good with a caddie comment
and a funny line at branch andsometimes undermining our friends. And it's part
of it's part of the language.It's part of how we show our affection.
(24:41):
But there's nothing wrong with balancing thatwith some genuine, you know,
sharing genuine thoughts about how important ourfriends in our final community is to us
as well. You know, ifanything, I've come through COVID, I've
become a bit of a mush nowand through writing this book, and it's
you know, if any you know, I tell my friends too much,
(25:02):
maybe now how much they mean tome. They're like, we know.
I'm like, all right, allright, all right, just making sure
because time is limited and it goesby, it goes by really fast,
one hundred percent, and you knowwhat somebody's gone. That's all you think
about is the last things you said, the last days you spent. How
much time did you spend Did yousay the right thing? And I can't
(25:22):
stress enough you know it sounds cliche, but you do have to treasure every
day in every moment. Yeah.And the other the other message I have
is that life is sort of cyclicalright now, and we gain rights and
there's a step backwards, and wefeel like it we're in a real danger
fort step backwards, and we mustbe vigilant for the most vulnerable members of
(25:47):
our community right now, and thatis the trans community as well, and
we cannot forget everyone's rights as wemove. As we move forward, Stephen,
thank you, thank you, thankyou so much for spending time with
me, and thank you for thebeautiful uh novels that that you put out.
Really inspiring, and it's funny howthe celebrates came to me in my
(26:11):
time and during my my own personallaws. It was it was like a
sign, you know, it waslike it was like a guidebook on how
to get through this. And soI can't thank you enough. Well,
thank you. It's always enjoyed totalk to you, and we had this
kind of a serious conversation today,but I do like to emphasize hopefully the
book is also very funny too,because what is what do friends do when
(26:33):
they get together other than and thenlaugh hopefully, and that is it's such
a key part of our not onlysurviving, but our thriving as a community.
So humor will always be a partof part of my work as well.
And I don't want to give anythingaway, but that that skydiving,
yeah, yeah, if you know, you know, but yeah, if
(26:55):
there's anybody who has designs on goingskydiving, I've been once, I don't
I don't know that I'll go again. Go go now before you read the
Celebrance again, listen, I don'twant to make it seem like this is
some great, huge tragic book.It's not. It's I think it's the
funniest scene that I've you know,the funniest sort of set piece that I've
ever written in a book. Butyeah, you'll definitely want to go Scott
(27:18):
having first and then and then readthe celebrate all right, thank you,
thank you so much. Enjoy theday. Probably not by the pool because
it's still in the hundreds, right, yeah, maybe submerged under you know,
underwater, but yeah, exactly flowingin the pool. Thank you,
thank you so much, and sayhi to Buyron for me. I will
(27:42):
thank you. That has been anotherepisode of Metrosource minis. You can follow
Stephen on Instagram at mister Stephen Rallyand check out my in depth chat with
him in the current issue of Metrosourceon newstands or at metrosource dot com.
I've been your host, Alexander Rodriguez. You can follow me on Instagram at
Alexander is on air Until next time, Stay true and do you boom?
(28:08):
That has been another Metrosource mini like, Share and subscribe on your favorite podcast
player, and check out the latestissue of Metrosource magazine on newstands or online
at metrosource dot com. Follow uson Facebook, Instagram at metrosource and on
Twitter at metrosourts Man. Until nexttime, A pass
This is Metrosource Mini, the officialpodcast to Metrosource magazine and home of short
form interviews with your favorite personalities fromthe LGBTQ world and beyond. Quick,
fun and informative. It's Metrosource onthe go, out in proud since nineteen
ninety. Welcome to Metrosource Minis.I'm your host, Alexander Rodriguez, writer
(00:27):
for Metrosource and queen of the podcast. What a complete thrill and enjoy the
summer. To turn on the TVfrom my usual morning viewing of The Today
Show to find New York Times bestselling author Stephen Rawleigh and join his chat
about his latest novel, The Celebrants, as an official Today Show read with
Jenna book Club pick as part ofhis mega book tour that took over a
month. He was in the spotlightas never before, having earned his way
(00:51):
with his previous novels Lillian, theOctopus, The Editor, and The Uncle,
each earning a number of accolades fromcritics and readers alike, not a
bet start for having published his firstbook at the age of forty five.
Each novel is masterfully crafted with theinclusion of queer characters so perfectly woven into
the story. The books are notlimited to the LGBTQ community, but rather
appeal to all audiences while telling ourstories. In this episode, we chat
(01:15):
about his early writing as a kid, the critical and audience appeal of his
work, healing through grief, agingin the gay community, life after death,
his creative process in developing his characters, his marriage with fellow writer Byron
Lane, the power of friendship,touring the nation, the future of the
guncle, his message to the LGBTQcommunity, and so much more. Girl
(01:38):
We get deep check it out.So I want to know what life was
like growing up in Portland. Whatkind of kid were you? Oh,
we're going way back, we are, Yeah, Portland, Maine. It
was a great place to grow up. Actually, you know, I have
a lot of good memories from there. Of course, as I entered high
school and my teenage years, wouldn'twait to get out of Maine and part
(02:02):
you know, because at the timeit seemed like, you know that,
you know, gay men in particularhad to leave in order to come out
and be themselves wherever they grew up. But you know, as a kid,
I really loved it. I wasalways a writer. I think I
used to write short stories, andmy dad would bring him into his office
and photo copy them, and Iwas like, wait, there can be
(02:23):
more than one copy of something Iwrite. And I think a little light
bulb went off then. But youknow, I always thought that I wanted
to be a writer, and yetMaine felt very far away from from publishing,
and I thought, maybe you haveto be a kid who grows up
in Manhattan or you know, havea society name or something to be a
(02:45):
writer. But then lurking in thebackground, you know, was Stephen King
in Maine. And so I wasalso that kid who, like, as
soon as I graduated from the children'sroom in the library, you know,
went straight for Stephen King. Hadread like everything he wrote too, So
I was already like the loner,creepy horror kid too, Steve, When
I have to tell you, that'sexactly my story I went. I started
(03:06):
reading when I was super, superyoung. My mom had me reading even
before I was going and into kindergarten, Like that's just what. But I
was reading Stephen King by like thethird grade, and I read every single
thing he could possibly put out.Yeah, unfortunately for us, it was
a lot, even even when Iwas young. But you know, thank
goodness for my you know, mymom too. You know, I have
(03:28):
the career I have today in partbecause you know, she insisted I have
a public library card and brought meregularly to use it. So grateful for
that. Now your books have beenmet with such success critically, awards,
wise readership. What do you thinkit is about your writing that people respond
to so much? Uh? Youknow, if I had an exact answer
(03:52):
to that, I would just ridethat secret sauce all the way, you
know, to retirement. I dothink, you know, there's an honesty
about the difficulty in life, andI do write a lot about grief and
grieving, but in a way thatfeels hopefully uplifting and also funny, because
humor has always been the way throughfor me, for through every difficult time,
(04:15):
and I think for the gay communityat large, you know, it
has been such a coping mechanism throughyou know, years of bullying and then
aids and you know, rejection fromour own families and building found families,
which is another theme I think inmy work, and so you know,
I don't know, but I thinkthat grief in particular can feel very isolating
(04:40):
when we're in the throes of it. I know you've suffered a loss recently,
but which I'm very sorry about.What the truth of the matter is
like, it's such a uniting partof the human experience. You know,
if we're fortunate enough to love,we're going to lose eventually. And uh,
you know, I don't there's somany people have been there, uh,
(05:03):
And I don't know why there's notmore sort of communal understanding of grief,
you know, particularly the last coupleof years. I think, you
know, we've lost so much asa you know, not only just in
the US or worldwide, you know, so many, so much loss,
and if it's not even just theloss of a person, it's the loss
of time, you know, andcertainly togetherness. And I don't think we're
(05:27):
dealing with that quite as head onas we should be, one hundred percent
agree. You know, when somebodyhas experienced loss or grief, people don't
know what to say. You can'treally talk about it because you know,
it's like that record scratch in aroom, you know. But everybody has
suffered grief at some point in theirlife, and if you haven't, you
are certainly bound to. And soI don't know why it has to be
(05:51):
that sort of record scratch moment likewhy can we not all united? You
know, sort of around it andso you know the extent that this is,
you know, a country that's verydifficult to deal with a lot of
say, you know, we're veryimmature on a lot of issues, you
know, but grief is sort ofone of them. Would rather not talk
(06:11):
about it than talk about it.But to the you know, you know,
hopefully my books feel like a placewhere people can go and you know
that there's some healing in reading them. Well, it's funny that you say
that I literally wrote down there's thisrunning theme or inclusion dealing with grief and
loss. But somehow the books aren'tdepressing. They're emotional for sure, but
they're uplifting and optimistic and it's youknow, how does joy come from that?
(06:35):
From from that kind of grief?Now, because your books do have
this running theme, why are thesewhy are you putting this theme into a
lot of your work? Is itfrom your own personal grief and is it
it's how you're working through your griefor it's because like you said, it's
just a part of life. Ithink you know, it's just a part
(06:56):
of life. For me, Ihaven't suffered loss any more more than you
know, than any I haven't livedin particularly tragic life. I have obviously
lost, and most recently before writingthis book, I lost one of my
best friends from from college. Andthere's something unique about losing a close contemporary
for the first time that makes yousort of question your own mortality in a
way. But you know, Ithink it stems back to some trauma that
(07:21):
we don't really talk about, whichis you know, for particularly for a
gay man my age. I'm fiftytwo. I came out thirty years ago,
you know, in the very earlynineteen nineties, when more men were
dying of AIDS than you know,even in the nineteen eighties, and so,
you know, when I came out, I assume that life would be
(07:44):
very sort of lonely and sad andshort, and I think there's you know,
inherited trauma from that. When theopposite has been true. You know,
life has been full of community forme and very joyous and and comparatively
long from what I was expecting.And so I think I'm still working through
(08:05):
that that trauma. And I alsotry to write about gay men in middle
age now too, because there isn't. You know, I'm missing that generation
above me, you know, forthose who are sort of five or ten
years above me. We've we've lostso many of those beautiful voices. And
so I'm also trying to like createexamples of or work through what it's like
(08:26):
to age, you know, hopefullygracefully as as a gay man. Also,
you know, I'm very curious deathis a character in in in your
work. I'm just curious, personally, do you believe in life after death?
Uh? I certainly not as wecome to understand it through any organized
(08:48):
religion, particularly Christian religion. Ido. I do not, And so
there's that's both, you know,But I'm also not one to say I
know what happened firmly either. I'mcertainly open to it, but I but
it just feels a little convenient andmagical for me. But I do try
(09:11):
to use that instead of finding asort of hopelessness in that, redirecting that
towards using my time, you know, valuing every minute of my time here
and making the most of this lifeand the people who I'm lucky enough to
be surrounded with and not taking themfor granted, because you know, as
(09:35):
far as I'm operating, as faras I know, this is, this
is my time, and I'm gonnayou know, I'm gonna grab it.
Your your most recent book, TheCelebrants. I read it in one day.
I just I just couldn't put itdown. Of course, the book
deals with a group of friends whobecome each other's family that spans decades of
their lives. How is it thatyou capture characters so well? And what
(09:58):
is your career a process? Whencreating your characters? I mean, these
people leapt off the page in thevery first two pages. I knew who
these people were. I love that. I love that so much. Well,
you're write in that. I dotry very hard. You know.
The opening of all my books isprobably what I come to. You know,
I have a drafted but I cometo the very last thing that I
(10:20):
do is work on that opening again, you know. And for my previous
book, The Uncle, the openingwas the last, the very last thing
that I wrote. And so youknow it comes from me having to know
the characters, I think, reallyto introduce them to you right off the
right off the bat. You know, I do have a close knit group
of college friends, which these friendsare in the celebrants. These are not
(10:43):
my college friends. I like toreassure my friends there's no one to one
parallel. But you know, Ido always say, like, God help
you if you're related to or friendswith a writer, because we are as
you know, we will take littledetails from life. And I think it's
those you know, it's those reallife details that you layer into these very
(11:03):
fictional people that you create that helpmake them feel real and hopefully hopefully leap
off the page. But I hadgreat fun concocting this particular group of of
characters, and you know, it'smy most diverse because it's an ensemble,
you know, when I wanted thefriends to be as diverse as my friends
(11:24):
are in real life. But thatmeant truly writing characters for the first time
that were really different from me inmy in my perspective. So it involved
sensitivity readers for the first time.It involved you know, other people sort
of reading and getting perspectives from fromothers, so that all the characters you
(11:45):
know felt you know, real andalive and waited equally to the one that
may or may not be based onme. Well, and what I loved
about the celebrance is that you didn'tglamorize your characters. They are flawed,
They fight, they love, theycry, they feel defeat. Did they
feel reborn? All these things goingon and we work through it with these
characters. Now you're writing that,how did writing this book affect you?
(12:09):
When when you typed your last wordand you checked your last word and you're
done, How did that process affectyou personally? Yeah? Well sor I'll
get back to that in a second. There is something because I've heard some
pushback from readers like, you know, well, they fight and they squabble.
It's like, why are these peoplefriends? I'm like, well,
wait, you don't fight with yourfriends a little bit. I mean,
there's something particular about long standing friendships. You know, those people who knew
(12:31):
you before you were married or beforeyou had your career and you were full
of hopes and dreams and you didn'tknow what life was going to be and
still know you and love you.Now, those are really special friendships because
I think those are the people alsothat you don't you can let your guard
down with them. You don't haveto present as your most perfect self around
(12:52):
those people, which means you canbe messy sometimes. And these characters certainly
are, and trusting that these friendsare going to still love them at the
end end of the day. Youknow, for me, it was,
you know, creating this friendship groupand now I'm you know, slightly outside
of them as the author, butI felt like a member of the group
in a way. And so Ithink particularly these were very difficult characters to
(13:15):
say goodbye to. And I didhave a moment because I also narrated the
audio book, and I had amoment finishing that. You know, I
live here in Palm Springs and theyrented me a recording studio, professional recording
studio, right in the heart oftown, and you know, Palm Springs,
U it is hot, right,and the first thing they have to
(13:35):
do is turn off the air conditioningbecause the microphone will pick up the hum
from the air condition owner. Irecorded this probably late April, about a
month before the book came out,so uh, not at you know,
not one hundred and ten degrees yet, but still very warm. And I
remember the audio engineer looking at meas I finished recording the last page.
(13:56):
He was like, oh, lookat you. You're crying, and I'm
like, I'm not crying. I'mwedding, you know. But what I
didn't want to tell was I wasI was also crying because you know,
that was a moment where I thought, oh, wow, that's going to
be That's the last time I'll probablyever read this book from cover to cover.
And there was a real sort ofmoment of having to say goodbye to
(14:18):
these these characters that I come tolove so much. I have to tell
you what a thrill it was turningon the TV and see you splashed over
the Today Show, a show Iwatched every single morning. The media tour
for the celebrants has been insane.You've been covered by every every outlet and
you've just finished your tour. Whatwas it like going through this tour?
(14:41):
Are you exhausted? But also whatkind of feedback did you get from from
everybody from from having read this book? Uh, you know, it's truly
lovely. And I was on theroad for a full month. And so
it evolved over over time because rightthose first couple events, those long bunch
of events, you're getting people thefirst few days the books are out,
(15:03):
so they have you know, there'sno way they could have read the book
already by the end of the tour. I was meeting people who had read
the book already and we're coming outto see me because they had enjoyed it.
And that was you know, that'svery rewarding in its own right.
So to be able to talk topeople about their own friendships and their own
grief and how they connected with thebook, you know, is always deeply
(15:26):
rewarding. And I got to go. I didn't get to tour for my
last book, The Gunpoll, becauseit came out, you know, just
as sort of vaccines were rolling onand whatnot, and so everything was zoom.
And so I didn't get to tourfor that. And and that was
the book that really I think elevatedmy career. That was the one that
caught on in a way. SoI was meeting it was incredibly moving too,
(15:50):
because I got to go. Thiswas the biggest tour I've ever done,
and I got to go places whereI wouldn't have been sent before,
places you know, where I didn'thave necessarily a base of support. Whereas
you know, my first couple ofbooks are like where do you have friends?
Where do you have a family thatmight come out and see you?
And now they're sending me you knowto place like Louisville, Kentucky, and
I'm like, I don't know anyonein Kentucky. But two hundred people came
(16:11):
and it was so beautiful and everyonewas so grateful, you know, particularly
the queer community there. They're like, no one comes to Kentucky. So
it was it was great and itfelt like a real celebration, and it
was, you know, incredibly meaningful. When I came home, I thought,
oh, I'm going to sleep fora month. But after about thirty
six hours, I was like,I need where When can I go back
(16:33):
out on the road. I needthe adoration. It's a sickness, Alexander,
It's a sickness. I'm stuck withit. The book you mentioned,
The gun Cale, also a bookI read in one day. I just
I just couldn't put it down.About a gay uncle, of course,
but the audience for the book wasfar beyond the LGBTQ community. You proved
(16:55):
that mainstream readers will read a bookcentered around a gay character. Was there
ever any part of you early onafraid to make your books quote unquote so
gay as to limit your readership oryour writing career? Uh? No,
I think you know. I struggledfor a long time. Uh you know,
I didn't publish my first book tillI was forty five, and so
(17:18):
it took me a lot. Ittook me a long time to break through.
In fact that there were long stretchesof time where friends and family argue,
you're not law school maybe or somethingelse. You know, it doesn't
look like this is going to happen. But you know, the flip side
of that is that enough change sortof in the in the culture. Uh.
You know, I wasn't publishing queerbooks in the nineteen nineties when I
(17:41):
was, you know, first startingwriting. You know, I wasn't I
wasn't publishing at all, It's whatI'm saying, you know, So at
that time it might have been certainlymuch more of a concern that books were
sort of relegated to a queer sectionin a bookstore or only at you know,
queer own bookstores, or certainly didn'thave the ability to break out in
(18:03):
mainstream. I certainly wouldn't have beentalking about them on the Today Show.
And so, uh, you know, it was just a fortune of of
you know, the moment in timewhen I broke through, and also the
culture had changed enough, but there'sa real backlash now to that too.
That yes, The Uncle is abook that has been embraced broadly and read
(18:26):
widely. However, since we havedon't say gay bills and stuff popping up
in Florida, Like, I cansee the evolution, right, So The
Uncle came out in May of twentytwenty one, don't say in twenty twenty
two. I had no problems forthat first year, but then suddenly,
once you know, that policy passedin Florida, I'm you know, was
(18:49):
the victim of a targeted, youknow, Twitter hate campaign because it's about
it, you know, a gayman caring for you know, being the
caretaker for his niece, nephew,for young children, and so you know,
all sorts of insults were hurled atme for for daring to write a
book that that celebrated everything that uhthat the queer community can offer children down
(19:12):
from from empathy and understanding and loveof self and total acceptance of self.
And so you know, it's it'sa tough moment in the in the culture
too. So you know, I'veget both both sides of it. An
amazing part of your real life story, of course, is your husband another
(19:33):
writer Fresh Office sophomore novel Big GayWedding by Relane. We featured Byron and
our pride issue of Natural Source.How did two writers exist in the same
household? How does that work?Not only do we exist in the same
household, we had the same publicationday for our new novels. Like,
it really is something that I thinka lot of people would assume was a
(19:55):
nightmare. But you know, Ithink we're good at you know, first
of all, I like I Ilike it personally. You know, our
one our house is quiet, whichis nice. Yeah, exactly. Well,
yeah, Byron might have a differentanswer because I tap too loudly.
I'm a loud loud typists. Butuh, you know, and we each
(20:17):
have an understanding of the job.It's a very it can be. Novel
writing a very solitary endeavor. Andthe weird thing is most people, most
novelists, don't get to see anybodyelse do the job, Like, oh,
how often do you talk to youragent or to your editor? Or
what does your cover look like?Or what do you do when you don't
like it? Or you know,all these sort of behind the scenes things,
(20:37):
And now like we can see eachother and help each other through that,
you know, and give each otheradvice to navigate the publishing process,
which is can be a very emotionallyfraud. But you know, in terms
of the craft too, even whenwe're just writing, you know, we
are each other's first reader, andI think the challenge is just knowing what
(21:00):
he's asking for in the moment.Is he asking me to read something as
a spouse, in which case Ijust want to be encouraging. Is he
asking me as another writer and lookingfor notes? So it's just to sort
of be sensitive about about the rolethat we're you know, the hat that
we're wearing at any given moment.And I would imagine too with two creatives,
sometimes you just need that alone timeto clear your head from a day
(21:21):
of writing. Yeah, And he'llunderstand exactly. It's not something you can
turn off just because his dinner time. Sometimes I'll be still working through something
and which means I'm in my headand quiet, and instead of taking offense
at that, you know, hecertainly understands the process and vice versa.
You have been by Byron's side throughhis cancer, which he talks about and
(21:42):
we've covered in our interview with him. What advice do you have for someone
who has a loved one going throughcancer or illness? How do you stay
strong through that? And it's actuallya theme that we saw in the celebrances
as well. Yeah, you know, I don't know that I'm the best
one to ask. I think,you know, we were given it was
(22:06):
an interesting moment. Byron had firstdiagnosis in twenty fifteen and a reoccurrence in
April of twenty twenty, just asthe world had shut down, and so
I was not because of because ofCOVID policies, I was not able to
be by his side during his chemotreatment. I would have to drop him
at the hospital every morning and pickhim up and you know, at the
(22:27):
end of the day, and Ijoke now that it's always saved our relationship,
Like I would have been fussling overhim too much to durn the day.
And it was probably better that hehad was you know, had the
space and the freedom to just sortof go through that without me hovering.
But that said, I do,you know, I think it's you know,
(22:48):
important that you give yourselves as aas a caretaker, the room in
the space to recharge and refill yourbatteries because you you know that's essential to
step away so that you can comeback and be there strongly. I have
to know, are you already atwork on your next book? I am,
(23:12):
I am. I'm trying to.You know, we're another sort of
unique moment here in that the youknow, I'm also a proud member of
the w g A, which ison strike, and so I'm trying to
balance out, you know, notyou know, there's a complete pause on
all my film and television projects,and so focusing on another novel right now,
which there is. There is noguild that covers covers novel writing.
(23:33):
There's also no dental insurance, youknow, the writing novels either, So
I try to make a balance ofboth. But so, yeah, working
working on another novel right now.Is there anything that you can give us
a little hint at I keep thesethings pretty close to the chest. I
do think it will be out nextyear. Uh yeah, I've been.
(23:56):
I've been working out for a littlebit now. And then the other thing
I can say is I think readersof mine will be very excited. I'm
ready, I'm ready. Okay,good. And finally, I want to
know what your message is to theLGBTQ community. This Pride season, Oh
(24:17):
my goodness, you know, staystrong, celebrate right. I wrote a
book with the theme of celebrating andand celebrate the people in your life who
mean something to you. You know, we're all good with a caddie comment
and a funny line at branch andsometimes undermining our friends. And it's part
of it's part of the language.It's part of how we show our affection.
(24:41):
But there's nothing wrong with balancing thatwith some genuine, you know,
sharing genuine thoughts about how important ourfriends in our final community is to us
as well. You know, ifanything, I've come through COVID, I've
become a bit of a mush nowand through writing this book, and it's
you know, if any you know, I tell my friends too much,
(25:02):
maybe now how much they mean tome. They're like, we know.
I'm like, all right, allright, all right, just making sure
because time is limited and it goesby, it goes by really fast,
one hundred percent, and you knowwhat somebody's gone. That's all you think
about is the last things you said, the last days you spent. How
much time did you spend Did yousay the right thing? And I can't
(25:22):
stress enough you know it sounds cliche, but you do have to treasure every
day in every moment. Yeah.And the other the other message I have
is that life is sort of cyclicalright now, and we gain rights and
there's a step backwards, and wefeel like it we're in a real danger
fort step backwards, and we mustbe vigilant for the most vulnerable members of
(25:47):
our community right now, and thatis the trans community as well, and
we cannot forget everyone's rights as wemove. As we move forward, Stephen,
thank you, thank you, thankyou so much for spending time with
me, and thank you for thebeautiful uh novels that that you put out.
Really inspiring, and it's funny howthe celebrates came to me in my
(26:11):
time and during my my own personallaws. It was it was like a
sign, you know, it waslike it was like a guidebook on how
to get through this. And soI can't thank you enough. Well,
thank you. It's always enjoyed totalk to you, and we had this
kind of a serious conversation today,but I do like to emphasize hopefully the
book is also very funny too,because what is what do friends do when
(26:33):
they get together other than and thenlaugh hopefully, and that is it's such
a key part of our not onlysurviving, but our thriving as a community.
So humor will always be a partof part of my work as well.
And I don't want to give anythingaway, but that that skydiving,
yeah, yeah, if you know, you know, but yeah, if
(26:55):
there's anybody who has designs on goingskydiving, I've been once, I don't
I don't know that I'll go again. Go go now before you read the
Celebrance again, listen, I don'twant to make it seem like this is
some great, huge tragic book.It's not. It's I think it's the
funniest scene that I've you know,the funniest sort of set piece that I've
ever written in a book. Butyeah, you'll definitely want to go Scott
(27:18):
having first and then and then readthe celebrate all right, thank you,
thank you so much. Enjoy theday. Probably not by the pool because
it's still in the hundreds, right, yeah, maybe submerged under you know,
underwater, but yeah, exactly flowingin the pool. Thank you,
thank you so much, and sayhi to Buyron for me. I will
(27:42):
thank you. That has been anotherepisode of Metrosource minis. You can follow
Stephen on Instagram at mister Stephen Rallyand check out my in depth chat with
him in the current issue of Metrosourceon newstands or at metrosource dot com.
I've been your host, Alexander Rodriguez. You can follow me on Instagram at
Alexander is on air Until next time, Stay true and do you boom?
(28:08):
That has been another Metrosource mini like, Share and subscribe on your favorite podcast
player, and check out the latestissue of Metrosource magazine on newstands or online
at metrosource dot com. Follow uson Facebook, Instagram at metrosource and on
Twitter at metrosourts Man. Until nexttime, A pass
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