Episode 338: Tales From The Boom Room: 1998 Macaulay Culkin Apartment. Fire (Volume 37)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to the Mike to Do Even podcast hosted
by media personality and consultant Mike Glow. This is the

(00:43):
New York Police Department's Bomb Squad, part human quanders, part dog,
part robot.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
All one team lethal and indiscriminate.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
To disarm one is to save countless lives.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
The Bomb Squad has given the all he's and the
members of the oldest and biggest bomb squad in the
United States are unique. Squad was able to safely remove
a device when you don't see them.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
The NYPD Bomb Squad is always watching for that unsuspecting.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Direct and YPD bomb Squad racing in and hauling away
another suspicious packet, packet properly identified.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
You're listening to Tails from the Boom Room Profiles in
the NYPD's Arson Explosion Bombs. Tails in the Boom Room
is back. We have not done this mini series and
quite some time. So if you think about backbones of
the show, I mean best the bravest with the FD
and Y that's become a great mini series.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
The ESU mini series is almost at fifty volumes.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
But before I had any of that, and before we
started to do these offshoots of nationwide interviews with both
police and fire.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
We kickstarted Tails in the Boom Room.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Now if you remember, that was a pivotal turning point
because Billy Ryan came out a few years ago then
talked about his time with the arson explosion Squads, notable
cases he had not just from that time in his career,
but across the entire twenty year portion of his career
from eighty four to zero four that he was on
the job, and that kind of kickstarted. Thank you Chris
Epton who just contributed in the chat there. That kickstarted

(02:14):
a volume of guys coming on from both A and
E and the Bomb Squad for a mini series that
now tonight hits volume thirty seven, which we I don't
think we've done since maybe June, if not a little
bit earlier than that.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
But in any event, welcome back.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Ladies and gentlemen to episode three hundred and thirty eight
of the Mike Newhaven Podcast. Tonight it's going to be
a special edition of Tayls and Boom Room with the
aforementioned Detective Ryan, who makes his return to the program tonight.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
I just wanted to say.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Really quick, if you haven't checked out the previous episode
that was with current fd ANDIE Chief of Safety Mike
Myers for volume sixty two of the Best The Bravest.
It was good chatting with the chief. He had a
lot of great stories. Billy's gonna do some advertising in
a little bit, but since he's been omby about it lately,
I can't forget. We can pull up Good Folks, Mad
City obviously. If you haven't had the book yet, you

(02:59):
can get on Amazon, which it's available in currently paid
hardcover and soon paperback. I'm working on getting a paperback
edition out there and hopefully we'd have that soon. It's
also available on Kindle if you want to read it
in ebook form.

Speaker 4 (03:13):
Two again, Good Folks, Matt City.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
My first book, Life on the Edge in the FDNY
an NYPD which Billy Ryan is in and he is
holding up in the back and he'll be holding up
again when you bring him mom momentarily. So we sold
over two hundred copies. It's been a great experience and
hope to write more books in the future.

Speaker 4 (03:29):
Thank you producer Vic for the picture.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
And yeah, like I said, if you don't have it yet,
make sure that you get your hands on it as
soon as you can.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
The link is in the description.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
You can go write to Amazon and purchase yourself a copy.
All right, now a couple of advertisements after that. The
first thing is MC Media Editing Services. Need advice on
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Speaker 4 (04:37):
But I kid you not. The Ryan Investigative Group, the mic.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Thing New Aping podcast is proudly sponsored and supported by
the Ryan Investigative Group. If you need an elite PI,
look no further than the elite Ryan Investigative Group, which
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(05:04):
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Ryan Investigative who a proud supporter and sponsor of the
Mike Den Newhaven Podcast. Proud supporter indeed. All right, we'll

(05:24):
get serious now. In December twenty third, nineteen ninety eight,
just before ten am, fire broke out at the fifty
one story South Towers on the upper west side of
manattan very lofty apartments. The origin location of the blaze
was an apartment located on the Sprawling high Rises nineteenth floor,
occupied by a fairly famous family. That family in question
being that of Faint Child actor mcauay culkin, who you

(05:45):
know primarily from his involvement in the Home Alone series.
And in the end of this blaze, tragically four residents
of the building were killed. There was a tragic week overall.
Just five days prior to this was the Van Daley
Avenue fire in which three FDNIF firefighters were killed in
the line of duty. And brought in to investigate this
particular blaze, which happened five days later in Manhattan was
the NYPD Arson Explosion Squad, and a member of that

(06:08):
squad at the time is, of course, retired NYPD Detective
first grade and longtime veteran of the Detective Bureau thirteen
of his twenty years in it, Bill Ryan. He's the
co executive producer and creator of Tales in the Boom
Room Profiles of the NYPD's Arsenal Explosion in Bomb Squad,
and of course he sponsored this program.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
And like I said, a major turning.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Point was inventing Tales from the boom Room, which I
owe to him, which really was not only a turning
point for the show, but just a turning point professionally
period with the people I've got to know. So Bill,
always good to have you on the program, even though
we're talking about something somber night. It's always good to
see it, my friend.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Oh my pleasure. Always great to see you, talk to you.
And I'm glad for your success with the book. I'm
sure it's gonna be the first of many books you're
going to be writing. And encourage everyone to get out there.
And if you haven't bought it, it's a great read,
you know, get out there and get it. And and
by the way, he also sells great shirts.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
So if you want to say, yes, I do, Mike
did New Haven Shirre.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
It's available, which quite a few people, including yourself have
gotten already, which I certainly do appreciate. He's walking advertisement tonight, folks,
So you know, listen, when you can you can plug yourself, yes,
excuse me, but also when you have great friends to
plug you too, it goes a long way. So, like
I was mentioning in the introduction December twenty third of
nineteen ninety eight is when this fire happens. It's a

(07:21):
fifty one story building, one of several high rises of
course in Manhattan, the Upper West Side, it's a pretty.

Speaker 4 (07:26):
High end area.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
So, like I ask anytime we're doing a special edition
of any mini series, when the call came in for
this fire, were you in the office?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
I was. You know, it was a fairly quiet day.
You know, it was a couple of days before Christmas.
You know, we were, you know, trying to do like
whennyone else does, just finish up your day tour, get
out and you know, well that Christmas shopping and everything
else to do like everyone else. And then you know,
I was just hoping for a quick, easy day tour

(07:56):
and get out to my last minute shopping because this
is two days before Christmas.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
So, like I said, fifty one story building. The exact
address is one twenty four West sixtieth Street.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
I should say.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
And McCaulay Culkin did not live with the family. It's
a different story for a different day. He lived separately
from the family, but this was his parents and his
other siblings that were in this apartment, as stated by
The New York Times. Now the details of the fire
ars followed. It started in that apartment owned by his family.
The combined units there were nineteen D and nineteen E.
It spread pretty rapidly through the building and I think

(08:33):
how many stories of the building did it enveloped?

Speaker 4 (08:34):
I think four?

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Right, It started on the nineteenth and as we all know,
you know, he rises, so the fire damage was pretty
much contained to the nineteenth floor. You know, it was
a fairly well built building. It was, you know, built
four fire codes, so most of the problem and damage

(08:57):
came from smoke getting into the hallway.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Was the door left open?

Speaker 2 (09:02):
It wasn't, you know. Unfortunately when it happened. Uh, Patricia Benchrump,
who's mcaulay Culkin's mother, you know, when she became aware
of the fire through one of their housekeepers. You know,
she's counting up all the kids getting out of the place,
and she she blocked the door. I think it was
with you know, the rug that you wipe your feet
with coming in or something like that. And I don't

(09:25):
think she meant to do anything other than just ensure
that her kids got out. But once they got out
and the door was chocked, you know, fires always looked
for oxygen, so just you know that that hallway was
just a right place for it to go.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Read something right now from UPI from wellthy day after
the fire, December twenty fourth, nineteen ninety eight, fire officials say,
and I'll share.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
I mean she knew.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
We share the screen here so those of you can
see it again. This is UPI, and it reads it's
followed home on a second mold. My mouth has giving
me some trouble here there we go. Authorities are trying
to determine if a space heater led to the deadly
apartment fire Wednesday that started on the floor where the
family of actor mccullay Culkind lives. Four residents died from

(10:08):
smoking elation, Four firefighters and four additional residents were injured
in a four alarm blaze that raised out of control
for almost three hours to fifty one story Park South
Towers apartment complex on Manhattan's Amsterdam Avenue on Wednesday. They
say the fire started in two connected apartments in the
nineteenth floor, where as you said, Bill mccully's mother, Patricia Birtrup,
lives with several of his siblings. They weren't injured in

(10:30):
the fire. They were able to get out, but in
their panic. Obviously, they unfortunately made some mistakes which a
lot of people make because the fact that they're panic.
So just from part of me an investigation standpoint, you
get there, They're never on the first floor.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
They can never be on the first couple.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Of floor, never very high up.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
So you get to the nineteenth floor.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Just tell me about getting there and examining the scene
as they take a swig of water.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Here, don't choke coming now, you know. I'm sure you know,
but as many of our audience members don't know, you know,
the arsenal explosions quite at the time of the fire
was located on the eleventh floor of police headquarters in
Lower Manhattan. So you know, by the time the fire,
you know, we don't get called immediately. We're not necessarily

(11:15):
first responders to the fire. So by the time the
fire happened and there was the call out for the fatalities,
you know, we didn't get called till you know, I
couldn't give you the exact time, but you know, the
by the time we got there, the fire was already out.

(11:36):
The bodies of the people that had passed what you know,
they had been in the process of being removed by
the fire department. So we got there. You know, it's
like anything else, you know, trying to find parking Gaven
with an unmarked police car, you know. And I went
with Kevin Perett and John Foulest from A and E.
And you know, we went up to the apartment and
h you know, you look at it. And the big

(11:58):
problem was that again, this was December twenty third, and
there was a Christmas tree in the living room and
everybody was jumping on it had to be a fire
in the Christmas tree, you know, everybody was jumping on
the you know, the obvious. You know, the most have
been something with the wiring and the Christmas tree or
the lights. And there was even a worker in another

(12:21):
building and I think he saw the fire and called
it in. He was with Joe Lobertie and he was
calling in saying, you know, hey, you know I'm looking
at this apartment and the Christmas trees on fire, and
you know, so, I mean, I understand why people jump
on it. But you know, this is this is why
you have to do an investigation. You just can't go
in and say, oh, the trees on fire. It was

(12:43):
you know, you have to put the time in to
really looking at it and looking at it critically, you
just can't jump it. You know. The easiest answer sometimes
isn't the right answer. Sometimes it is, but a lot
of times it's not. But you know, we did our
best to try to do this as quickly as possible.
The problem was, you know, it's you know, it's an

(13:03):
upscale area. The fact that you know, you have celebrities
involved in it, that adds to it, you know, And
anytime you have four fatalities, you know you're gonna have
all the brass there. And it was kind of a
tough scene arriving because you had, you know, an army
of the fire department there, you had you know, a
decent amount of representation with the police department. But you know,

(13:25):
I hate to say this with the zwiest you know,
I don't want to call it the battle of the
badges because that makes it sound, you know, more confrontational
than it is. Right, But anytime you have a fire
with a fatality, you know, it's it's it's really at
the end of the day, you know, the police are
the ones that have to kind of sign off on it.
And you know, there was some issues that the four
people that had died, died in the stairwells on the

(13:47):
twenty sixth and the twenty ninth floors, and ideally, from
a police point of view, you know, if that's what
they died, you know, if you're sure they're dead, then
you know, even where they are, have crime scene come in,
photograph it, let's not disturb it. Each of those are
individual crime scenes. In the apartment where the fire happened

(14:08):
is a crime scene, and then you know, the twenty
six floors a crime scene. The twenty ninth floor is
a crime scene. And the bodies had been moved, and
the fire department's attitude was, well, our protocol. I don't
want to speak for the fire department, essentially their protocol
is to take the bodies to the hospital, and you

(14:30):
know we're sitting there going, hey, you know, please don't
do this. We've got crime scene coming, and there was
a little bit of static about it. You know, the
fire department as a whole, you know, they were really
you know, they did they did a good job, but
you know, they were also going through a lot of
trauma as an agency because five days before there was

(14:51):
the Vindalia Street fire in Brooklyn, where you know, three
of their members perished, and I was unfortunately at that
fire as well, and you know, they just don't want
to you know, no one wants to be told what
to do by another agency, and you know, the the
fire department the police department are no different. So there

(15:11):
was there's some static about that, which you know, I
really didn't like to see when I got up to
the apartment. You know, one of the things was a
Chief Bill Ali, who was the chief of detectives at
the time. He had a pet peeve for detectives wearing
their their shield. You know, you put it your It
wasn't at it wasn't like we did this intentionally, but

(15:32):
when you put it in your pocket a certain way
from the holder, the shield would display upside down. And uh,
you know, he said it was like, you know, guys
trying to imitate. I think it was n white, p
D blue. But I've seen it on you know, I've
seen in order. I've seen it, you know, and uh,
you know, the the actors do what the cops do.
So uh, but Ali just had the biggest pet b

(15:55):
for that. So here I am, I'm going through the scene.
I'm looking at it. You know, I'm talking to the
fireman and the fire marshals and Ali comes in and
he sees that, and you know, I was so preoctant
about what I was doing, I didn't even think about it,
and he went bananas when he saw that. He starts
chewing my head off with you know, in the middle
of all this, it's like, you know, just kind of

(16:16):
I mean, I love Bill Ulli. You know, he promoted
me twice, but you know, but he he really you
know better, I know, I know, I know, but you know,
you had to look at it like one of the
things that when you're in the room now, because by
the time we had got into the scene, it was
already like on you know, news radio, like ten ten
and CBS, and everybody was saying, you know, the Christmas

(16:38):
tree fire. So as people are arriving, you know, because
just like we do, you know, we've got our news
radio want to pick up whatever you can get from it.
You know, sometimes that's just faster, especially when you're a
citywide unit like us, where it takes us long. You know,
we're not responding to the local priesting and it takes
us a while to get to the scenes. Even so,

(16:59):
you know, it's it's very common that you know, you've
got on the news channels us to see what you
can pick up, you know, as the fatalities and non fatalities,
whatever you can get, even though you know sometimes it's
it's incorrect, it's just you know, you're you're at that
point where you want to be like a sponge, picking
up every piece of information you can get. Uh. And
then sometimes people will go up and talk to reporters

(17:22):
and say, oh, you know, I'm John Smith and I
saw this, and you know there's a witness for you
that you know now you've got to locate. But when
we came in the apartment, you know, I'm I'm trying
to tell a Lee and and the rest of the
police brass that I said, look, I said, you know,
I get why you think it's the Christmas tree in

(17:43):
the corner. Here's why I doubt that's the answer. And
I said, you know, you have to go into a
fire and you have to look from the area of
the most damaged and work your way out to the
least amount of damages where the most damage happens. Ninety
nine times out of one hundred, that's where the fire started.
And uh, I said, you know, look, look at the room,

(18:04):
I said, where's the damage. I mean other than you know,
the windows breaking in the glass? I said, where's where's
the fire damage? When I say damage, you know, I
want to see uh, you know, soot and smoldering and
and and fire damage. Not necessarily you know, things were
knocked over, the glasses broken, and I said, you know,
it's not here by the tree. It's over here, opposite

(18:28):
the tree, by the couch.

Speaker 5 (18:31):
And uh.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
You know, once everyone knew that we were there, and
and you know, we were working it out and we
were getting it done, you know, and I was telling everybody,
I said, please stop telling the press if you're the
ones telling them that this is a Christmas tree fire
at an accident and we don't know anything yet, you know,
let's let's not be so quick to to go on

(18:55):
and say these things. And you know, and unfortunately, you know,
even though we had that, it kept coming out that way.
And what we had learned, you know, to kind of
get into the investigation was that you know, this apartment
was a mess. I mean the you know, these kids
and the Culkins, and that they had the two apartments

(19:15):
and it was something like that a Lord of the
Flies with money. I mean, these kids, you know, they
had a lot of money. They really weren't supervised, and
you know, the the apartments were a mess. I mean
the one apartment. You know, pinball machines all over the place,
graffiti and uh, you know a lot of people in
the building didn't really like the kids that much because
you know, they would come in and start problems and uh,

(19:38):
they were more annoying. You know, there wasn't doing criminal things.
There's just annoying kids, right, bad neighbors. But when we
went in, you know, we looked and said, you know,
the couch that that was burnt, uh, you know there
was there was behind that was was the heating unit
with the spine of the couch would be, you know,
the the heating units behind there. And you know, I'm

(20:00):
looking at it, I'm seeing like this, you know, there's
bubblegum wrappers. And I don't say they put it in there.
I just think that they were sloppy kids and they
were throwing things around. The couch was you know, like
a like a couch in a rec center for kids,
you know where you know it was you know, they're
jumping on it and whatever, and it's it's just you know,

(20:21):
it's fraying and and you know, pieces of fabric are
going in it. And there was a towel, not a towel,
rather a blanket that was was kind of you know,
seen its better days. And that was in the couch area.
And so what had happened was the housekeeper came in

(20:43):
I think about ten o'clock that morning, and it hadn't
been really a cold December. This was probably the forest
morning where it was pretty cold, and you know, she
came in as she would do when you know, she
turned on the heating unit and you know went about,
you know, preparing breakfast and and all the other things
that she was doing for the family. And I think
once she turned that switch on, those coils, you know,

(21:06):
heat it up, and all that debre had probably been
on there for a protracted period of time, and uh,
it looked like that's where the fire happened. That was
the cause. When we finally talked to her, you know,
she told us that she saw the fire at the
couch and she saw the blanket was on fire and

(21:28):
she wanted to try to put it out. So what
she did was she took the blanket and picked it
up off the couch and she started running through the apartment,
heading towards the bathroom, hoping to throw it in the
tub or the shower and you know, douse it with
water and put it out. But what she ended up
doing is, you know, she's basically taking a blanket that's
on fire and running through the apartment and that's hitting

(21:51):
you know whatever, you know, everything, I mean whatever it
could hit. And you know, while that's happening, you know,
the mother's getting up and you know she's getting everybody awake.
You know, these kids, you know, they they probably don't
get up to noon. These guys, they were just like
I said, it was. It was kind of like a

(22:12):
rich kid's Lord of the Flies on the Upper West Side.
And you know, they would trying to get everybody out
and they were calling nine when one trying to gay,
we got a fire. We got a fire. And they
were trying to do the right thing and get everybody out.
But unfortunately, when they got out and they chalked that door,

(22:33):
you know, they they left it bed for the rest
of the building, and eventually the glass behind the Christmas tree,
you know, they were large, spacious windows. You know, the
glass eventually breaks from the heat and once that glass broke,
you know, again you're up on the nineteenth floor on

(22:54):
a super cold day with a lot of wind and
the mid that glass. You know, they gave that couch
and that whole area tons of oxygen and just blew
it right out in the hallway. And you know, the
fire damage was bad, but it wasn't as bad as
as the problem with the smoke, and it just went
into the hallway and you know at the end of

(23:14):
the hallways there's doors next to the elevators, and uh,
you know a lot of the residents, uh on the
lower floors. You know, they knew about the fire and
they got out. I don't know if you know this.
When the fire happens in a building like that, the
elevators automatically come down to the lobby. That way, they

(23:34):
don't get anyone trapped in. And fire department has a
key here about the fireman key where you can override
it so you can get your manpower up to the
higher floors. So you know, when we got there, you know,
the mcculkin's and then Patricia, but you know they we
already in the hallway of the building, and you know,

(23:56):
people are all blaming them for the fire, and then
then there's you know, people panicking about at it. And
the building was built for fire safety. Unfortunately, you know,
if the doors had stayed closed, you probably wouldn't have
any fatalities. They probably would have, you know, mitigated a
lot of the damage to their own apartments. But once
the doors opened up and the hallway stairway doors opened up,

(24:21):
that fire shot up. It was a big thermal plume
going right towards the roof, and unfortunately, those four people
were trying to get out of the building and since
they couldn't take the elevator and they were walking down
the stairs or whatever, you know, they basically ran headfirst
into the smoke. And it doesn't take very long to
have the smoke take you out. You know, most people

(24:43):
who die in fires, they don't die from being burned,
They die from smoke inhalation. And that's what happened with
these unfortunate four people. And you know, it was tough.
When the fire department showed up, they were telling me
that they you know, they were going into the elevator
and the fire key wasn't overriding it, so they you know,

(25:05):
now they got to run up nineteen floors. I mean,
you know, to put out the fire. I mean, even
if you're not carrying equipment, if you're just carrying yourself,
nineteen floors is tough, bro, you know what I mean.
I'm just saying, even if you don't have that, I mean,
you know, I mean, yes, you know you're adding air packs,
helligan tools, you know. But I'm saying, it's it's a

(25:27):
it's a big job, even if you're you're you're you're
just carrying you know, like I do a suit in
a fountain pen. You know. Yeah, you know, these these
brave guys are out there, you know, carrying equipment, and
you know it's a lot, and you you know it's
a lot too when you're you know, you don't know
when the first responding guys are getting there. You know,
they don't know how am I going to be up
there rescuing people getting them out? Am I gonna? You know,

(25:49):
they don't know what they know until they actually get
their feet on that floor. And uh, I think they
try to use some of the fire lines that were
in the hallway, and I think, you know, unfortunately, I
think that that kept some of the doors open longer
than then would have worked. I know Tom von Essen
was the fire commission at the time. I think you know,
he had made some comments about that, which you know,

(26:12):
I thought, was, you know, unusual, because you know, you
don't want to put anything that makes your guys. You know.
I don't say what they did was wrong, but people
that don't meant a better they might have perceived what
they did is as incorrect or not maybe the best
way to handle it, because the public never has a
hard time telling anybody how to do their job, whether

(26:33):
you were a baker or a copper or a fireman.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
I had some of his comments right here before he continues.
So one of the things he said in the aftermath
was for The New York Times he described the victims
as likely being trapped in quote a excuse me, a
blast of heat and smoke that went up the stairway
like a chimney, kind of to your point, when they
were coming down and.

Speaker 4 (26:53):
Got caught in it.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
And he and again, he was always a pretty open
and transparent commissioner. He didn't mind talking to the media.
So it's not unusual from that standpoint. That's just who
he was. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but
he particularly was open about it with The New York Times,
of which I have the article here from again the
day after the fire, and which and we'll talk about
the victims momentarily. He elaborated on those comments while also

(27:16):
talking about the response and mentioning it was difficult. From
again what you just said, you're talking about a fifty
one story building. It's difficult to get personnel up there.
I think even emergency service was there, and they were
having a hard time getting up as well. Because Tim Farrell,
who was on a while ago for the ES, he
responded that day as a sergeant.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
In the su and I think everybody was there.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
Everybody was there place like that.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
And again not to say, listen, it's a high rise
in Manhattan, it's going to get a big response, and
that certainly did. But and it's an uphill battle, not
only just to get there, but when you get there.
In your case, it's not just the apartment. And thanks
for opening up about that. But one of the things
I wanted to ask you about, besides the apartment, you
have the hallway component too, and was there anything else

(28:01):
besides what you saw in those two connected apartments in
that hallway.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
That made you say, hmm, this doesn't seem right.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
You know, I think it's like anything else, that's a
preponderance of things. You know, I'm looking at things, peretes,
looking at things, fouses, looking at things. You know, we
huddle back, We talked to the marshals. You know, none
of this is done in a vacuum. You know, we
we're you know, for the most part, you know, we
had a fairly decent relationship with the marshals, and it
was like, look, we got a fatality, and you know,

(28:32):
for our end, for the police department, we just want
to make sure it's not a crime. You know, if
it's an accident, then it happened that way, you know,
so be it. But you know, you know, the big
thing for us was, you know, the the the door
being chucked. You know, we we certainly uh, you know,
there was no one thing to kind of put us over.

(28:54):
The big thing for me was was, you know, I'm
primarily just in what's happening inside the apartment. No matter
of fact. One of the things that when I spoke
to Patricia Bentrip, I said, hey, do you have any
pictures or video back? When people use video, I said
of what this place look like before the fire. And

(29:16):
she said, you know, yeah, we have a video camera
in my bedroom and I think they had a gathering
that's Saturday, and they had some people over and they
made some video of it. So you know, she told
me where it was. You know, I went and I
got it and you know, brought it out and we're
looking at it with the fireman, the fire marshals rather,
and you know, we're going through it and saying, all right,

(29:38):
now we know what the place look like before all
the the mess is here, and you know you can see,
you know, the couch and the sloppy stuff, and you know,
so it's certainly kind of give you an idea what
the place look like. It's also it's like anything else
you know, think about, like when you when you're putting
a puzzle together. One of the first things you probably do,
if you're like me, you take the box and you

(30:00):
put the picture on the next one on the table
so you can see how do you put it together? Right? So,
I mean it was helpful in that respect that you know,
we could see you know, the before and the after
if you will, you know, I think we all found
that pretty helpful. You know that we had to end

(30:20):
up doing real interviews with with the family and you know,
they they were staying. I'm trying to remember the hotel.
It was somewhere in the theater district. And it was
just a bizarre thing because you know, I mean, they
were pretty open about it. I mean, I give them
a lot of credit. You know, I've dealt with you know,
famous people before and they've been involved in situations like this,

(30:43):
and their usual attitude and response is, you know, talk
to my lawyer and talk to me. And you know,
I was very impressed with with for the most part,
how much candor Patricia Bencher had, you know, I mean
she you know, uh, I think she's probably by that

(31:03):
time and you know, heard some news footage or you know,
some radio thing, and she's sitting in a hotel and
probably watching this all and you know, it was out
pretty quickly that you know, she blocked the door. And
you know, when these things happened, you know, the the
media is always happy to find that you know, a
bad guy or somebody that you know, point the finger

(31:24):
at her blame. And to her credit, you know, she
was you know, she didn't block us some talking with
the kids. She stayed with us while we talked to
them because they were miners. But you know, she she
was very open with us, and I was very impressed
with that because I really thought when we got there, well,
we're going to get there and you know, she's gonna
hand me the card of you know, here's you know,

(31:44):
Bernie the attorney and go talk to him. And you know,
we didn't get that, and they were very open about it,
and uh, you know that the housekeeper felt terrible because
at a certain point, you know, she realized that her
going into the apartment turning on the heat. Uh probably,
at least in my opinion, that that's you know, that

(32:06):
that was what started the whole uh fire happening. I
mean but again, you know, if if the place was
maintained properly, and you know, I mean all that debris
and everything got on that I mean, you know, it
built up for a while, it didn't just happen, and uh,

(32:26):
you know, she felt bad that, you know, she grabbed
the towel through and you know, and when we first
got there, you know, all we see is the towel
in the bathroom in the water, and you know, you're like,
how that happened, you know, and you know you got
to worry about you know that, you know, there was
some indications in some of the kids, when I won't
say which kids what because I don't want to, you know,

(32:47):
put on the spot, but you know it looked like
they you know, they had a lot of beer and
a lot of booze all over the house. And you know,
we didn't know like these kids, were they up all
night partying and then you know, do they fall asleep
or you know, did some of their brat friends come
in and and do this. You know, you don't know
right away until you run all these things down. That's

(33:08):
why it's like, Okay, you know, what does the evidence
tell us, Well, we see from the damage, the fire
happened over here, we got a towel in the bathroom,
this is where the damages happened. This is where the
door is chocked. And he starts putting it together sort
of eliminating things to actually get to what the cause is.
One of the things I thought was was kind of
interesting in it was that even though we were all

(33:32):
I said, we all, you know, the cops and the marshalls,
we're all on the same page that the fire happened
in this this area and that it wasn't the tree
and there was a problem with it with the heating system.
The fire department came out and they they hired a
firm to actually come in with cranes and pull the

(33:52):
unit out UH and send it to UH some engineering
people to to to look at it and see if
this proof of that. I can't remember my thirteen years
in a and E them ever doing that. I've seen
private insurance companies and they had an excellent company that
came in, you know with Thomas J. Russo Associates. You know,
the excellent shout out to Mike and all the guys

(34:17):
at Russo. But you know they did the civil investigation
on it, and you know it's not uncommon that a
company like that because they're working at the insurance company
and the insurance companies, you know they're going to look
for things with called subrogation. I guess where was it
a problem with Was it a defective heating system? Was
it was it a product liability issue? Where they can

(34:38):
because you know, everyone's gonna sue everybody, so it becomes okay,
who can we blame? Well, if we can prove that
the heating system went badly. Maybe they have some of
the responsibility. You know, those is going to be a
little bit on Patricia for blocking the door. But you know,
when there's four fatalities, millions of dollars worth of damage,

(34:59):
several people or injured, you know, the ambulance chass come out,
you know, and everyone's going to look to to see.
And they did, in fact get sued. I mean the
they sued the uh, the park Towers people got sued
their insurance company rather got sued on their behalf. Patricia
got sued. I think Macaulay Culkin even though he didn't

(35:20):
live there, he was he was married, he lived somewhere else.
I think he actually uh owned the apartment or leased
the apartment. I think he had a I think he
was the one paying the bills, and I think that's
how they got him on there. But you know, it's
like anything else, they was go for the deepest pockets.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
So yeah, he was eighteen at the time too. He
was he was literally just becoming in it all that time.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, he just got married, uh you know, and it was.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
You know, it was a pardon no, it's like, yeah,
he did nineteen ninety eight two, a girl named Rachel Minor.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Rachel Minor, Yeah, and you know, uh, you know, it's
just bizarre. You know, where you're sitting there and like,
you know, here's here's this this hotel room and we're
also think in this hotel room in doing these people,
myself and the fire marshals, and you know, it's like,
you know, and here's the home alone kid, you know,
and I'm like, you know, you know, and you know

(36:12):
you knew the kids from movies and different things, and
it's just, you know, they just seem like normal kids.
You know, you kind of think they're going to be
a certain way. And like I said, the messes and
everything it was, you know, so I keep calling like
the Lord of the Flies with money, because I mean,
he gave a bunch of teenagers, you know, a good
deal of money and not a lot of supervision. You know,

(36:33):
what are they going to do? You know, video games
and pinball machines and graffiti all over the place. And
that was not in the fire apartment. That was in
the other apartment. But you know, it was a mess,
and you know, but they were all very good about it.
You know, I don't think I interviewed McCaulay because he
wasn't there. You know, he was, he was in the room,

(36:56):
but you know, since he wasn't at the scene and
he wasn't really you know, I may have interviewed maybe
we broke it up and maybe one of the marshals
interviewed him, but I didn't speak to him. And you know,
of course, you know, they're hiding out because they don't

(37:17):
want to necessarily, you know, they had no problem speaking
with the investigators. But like anything else, you know, I
don't think they really wanted to talk to the press
or the media or anything. You know, they don't want
to be asked questions that will come back and haunt them.
But and again, you know, the lawsuits happened fairly quickly.
I think I think they was. I think they were

(37:40):
probably the lawsuits probably started around January. You know, it
didn't take very long.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
And it went on for a while too. Just to
before you continue, just touch on the victims real quick.
For people, as we said, died in this. We'll talk
about cause and effects some more in a moment, but
just to paint a picture as to who they were.
Victim one Wanda Chappelle, thirty nine years old, she was
a senior vice president at the House Publishing. There was
Lillian Lauder, she was twenty eight and she worked in
the building. Constance Hurly seventy seven years old, resident of

(38:07):
the twenty eighth floor of the building and a teen
breath knock.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
I hope pronouncing that right.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
I apologizecerely if I'm not thirty three years old, executive
at Price Waterhouse Coopers. So these were fairly affluent people
who again, it doesn't matter how much money you have
or don't have when there's a fire, and the fire
doesn't discriminate. Unfortunately for these four people, they were not
able to get out that day.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, and you know, the the last person who, for
you did better with the name than I will. You know,
they were a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. So
you know, it was a whole thing about, you know,
finishing up ther autopsies and getting the body back to Dublin,
Ireland for the funeral, and so you know you're dealing
with that as well, and you know that's that's you know,

(38:51):
that's a difficult thing when you have to talk to
somebody overseas and say you know, hi, you know your
family member passed away. I mean, it's it's never an
easy thing to do. But you know, and you know,
not that I'm blaming them for this, but you know,
had they stayed in their apartment, I mean, you know
a lot of people stayed inside their apartment and they
actually ran out that there was balconies to the apartments.

(39:13):
They'd stay out on the balconies, you know, use their
cell phone telling them, hey, we're here, and you know,
you know, the firemen are telling them, just keep the
door closed, don't come out, and you'll be okay. And
I don't know if these any of these four people
got that kind of notice. You know it, you know,
it's very very visceral. You know, you see the fire,

(39:34):
you see the smoke. You know common sense and you're
all training your panic. You run out the door. And
then you know, had they stayed in the door and
just locked it, they are not locked and just closed it,
you know that they probably would still be with us.
But you know, unfortunately that's what happened. And again, you know,
this was you know, just before this is December twenty three,

(39:57):
this is just before Christmas. All this is going on,
and uh, you know, it's just you know, to have
this kind of fatality and everything. And again it was,
you know, we were just coming off of the Vandalia
fires where you know, yeah, you know, you you you've
lost a couple of firemen and uh you know, and
those poor guys you know, died tragically and.

Speaker 4 (40:17):
Uh yeah, you know, so in a hallway like these
people did.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, yeah, you know, not this similar. And you know
what's interesting is to say that some good can come
out of tragedy, is that you know, more discussions were
brought up about a sprinklers, fire doors, you know, all
kinds of fire safeties. You started getting, ah, discussed a

(40:42):
little bit more with with with people that could make
a difference. And I won't say that it made big changes,
but you know, at least it keeps the dialogue going.
And uh, you know that's the most important. I'm seeing
that now with fires that you know, you see it
all in the New York I'm sure it's all over
the country. But the problems with the e bikes, you know,

(41:05):
and people are taking these e bikes and you know
they're I get it. You know, you can't leave it
out because someone's gonna steal it. And then you bring
it into your apartment, you know, and then you know,
the bike goes up and you know, and whe do
Most people end up leaving it, you know, right by
the door so they can get in and out of
the apartment. So now now you've created your own fire
right it's your probably only escape. You know a lot

(41:28):
of these, especially the high rise you know, they don't
have fire escapes. So if you if you can't get
out the front door, you know, you got a problem.
And I'm seeing a lot of legislation come up now
and a lot of city politicians and people in the
fire department, uh, you know, getting behind that, and I
think they're going to start addressing that a little bit

(41:50):
more seriously. I certainly hope. So, I mean, you know,
it's an important safety thing because I mean, I can't
even count how many fires we've had where they've gotten
back to the clause being the e bikes, or more correctly,
the batteries and the e bikes. And you know this,
this wasn't dissimilar to for a while. You remember the
the skateboards with the motors. Yeah, you know, we're having

(42:11):
a bunch of them that were they weren't they were
the knockoffs of of the you know, quote unquote good
ones and then those were starting fires too, So I
think people, you know, have to be a little bit
more conservative when they bring these things into their houses.
You know, like a pet pee for me is when
people go into these places and buy you know, inexpensive

(42:32):
uh lighting fixtures for their Christmas tree. Uh. You know
sometimes it's it's on discount for a reason, you know,
and they'll put that UL sticker on it, you know,
you know, United Labs and uh, you know it's just
a sticker. It's it's it's not a good system. And
you know, the wind is always the tough time. That's

(42:53):
when most of the fatalities come out, you know, between
the Christmas trees and certainly things like space heaters and
people trying to stay warm. You know, a lot of
these landlords aren't given the people heat, so they got
the unsafe space heater or they've got the stove on
to keep the apartment, say, or warm rather and you know,

(43:14):
it's it's that time of the year for this, and
again this is right before Christmas, so you know, it's
just you know, there's always seems to be at least
one big fire, one big incident in my life, right
before Christmas, you know what, you know, the worst one
probably being the the Freddy's fire up in Harlem, which
is a case for another time, but you know it's

(43:38):
it's you know, there's never a good time for it
to happen, but you know, it's it's always something that
kind of brings you down a lot more when you're
dealing with you know, death notifications and people have passed
away from fires. But you know, I think it went
pretty well with the investigators. You know, it said the
the bigger problem was that the body's being moved, and

(44:00):
you know the skirmishes downstairs with that, and you know,
it's it's tough to get everybody on the same sheet
of music because their protocol goes one way, our protocol
goes another way. And you know, the end of the day,
you know you make it work. But you know, I
know you were talking about when Chief Myers is on

(44:21):
about you know, OHEM being involved, Like this is a
classic case where you know you almost want an OEM.
You know, you need like a Jerry Howard coming in
and saying, Jerry Howard was oh we a you know,
coming in and saying all right, boys, you know this
is what you're gonna do. This is what you guys
are gonna do, and play nice, but.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
The delegation almost becomes a must. It's not an option
at that point, it's a must. And you bring up landlords.
And it's interesting because I was pulling up more articles
while you were talking about that. So fast forward to
a New York Post article from August twenty fifth of
two thousand and one, right before nine to eleven actually,
where it's a little blurb written by Darrek Grigor in
which mcculkin's McCauley culkin's mother rather actually blamed the building

(45:05):
owner for that fire. So it reads his folity and
very short article published in The Post August twenty fifth,
two thousand and.

Speaker 4 (45:11):
One, McAuley Culkin's mother says.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
She isn't to blame for the December nineteen ninety eight
fire in her apartment that killed four people. Her building
is in a lawsuit file the Manhattan State Supreme Court.
Patricia Bentrump says it was quote the negligence, carelessness, and
or recklessness of the owners of Park South Tower and
installing a faulty heater in her apartment that caused the
deadly blade at one twenty four West sixtieth Street. Twenty

(45:35):
four people were injured as a result of the fire,
which allegedly started when the building when the malfunctioning had
a heater rather set a couch and Christmas Street in
the family's nineteenth floor apartment ablaze.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Home alone.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Star McCauley was living in the apartment at the time.
The building spokeswoman Michelle de Milley says she hadn't seen
Bentrums suit and thus refused comment. Now before you comment
on that, Billy Worth, knowing that again among the causes
suspected time for that fire was an electrical failure. Officials
suspected that an electrical heat pump in the Kulkan apartment
may have shorted out, which we talked about earlier, causing

(46:07):
the blaze, and it was removed for further analysis as
a result. Witness account you mentioned Joelabretti earlier. He witnessed
the Christmas tree inside the apartment light on fire and
described the window frame melting as the fire was spread rapidly,
and it sure did at those temperatures. And amongst that,
of course, there was also the concern about sprinklers, but
just her building conditions at the time and her subsequently

(46:29):
blaming the owners and what was a counter suit? What
do you make of that?

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Well, you know, we talked a little bit about it
a few moments ago. You know, when these things come down,
you know, everybody runs for you know, everybody tries to
run for protection on this. And you know, in a
civil case, you know it can be you know, you

(46:57):
don't actuarily have to have one of the blame. You know,
you can say, you know, well, you know, Patricia, twenty
five percent of the problem was you left the door open,
and you know maybe fifty percent was it was the
faulty eating system. And then you know another twenty five
percent goes to you know, building management for not you know,

(47:18):
doing fire drills or whatever. I mean, you know, when
you when you start seeing civil litigation, I mean, the
sky is the limit. I mean it, you know, in
terms of you know who they're going to blame. And
you got to remember it's it's all insurance companies fighting
with each other, and so they're worried about who's going
to take the biggest hit. And you know, I hear

(47:41):
what her quote is and I'm sure she said that,
and I'm you know, you got to appreciate. By that
time she's releasing that statement, you know, she's been prepped
by lawyers, she's been prepped by you know, insurance companies
talk to hers, said, hey, you know, we got to
put this on the building. And I'm not saying she's lying.
She goes, look, you might have chruckd the door, but

(48:01):
the fire wouldn't have happened if you know, these people
didn't do this or if it wasn't product safety. And
you know, I didn't participate in the civil lawsuit, so
I don't know what the engineers came up with to
say was defective or or or was it it may
not have been. I mean, I you know, I don't

(48:22):
know if it was defective. But you know, here's the
thing from my point of view, is like, okay, let's
say it was defective, you know, much like we talked
about the e bike. You know, it was defective, But
did you what did you do to help the conditions
of that fire take place? And you know, intentionally or unintentionally?

(48:43):
You know, so I mean, you know, how did all
that gunk get on on the on the heating coils?
You know, you know the fact that she if they're
looking at a wrongful death, and she's the one that
propped the door open. I mean, I think any any people,
any person rather sitting in a jury, you know, I
don't see them not saying yeah, you know that that's

(49:04):
a problem. And then you got to realize, Mike, that
they're all I'm not trying to say they're lying or
anything like this, but they're all trying to protect their
best interest in this. And a lot of that comes
down to you know, your your lawyers and the insurance
company tell you, you know, this is what we this
is what we need to hear and say. And you know,
I don't think she's being completely realistic that she had

(49:30):
nothing to do with it.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
She a trial in two thousand and two over it.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Right. What I'm saying is, you know, I just think
just as you know, you have a fire and and
you blocked the door, and you've already been open and
said that. You know, now, what are you going to say? Well?
You know, uh, you know, I if the fire didn't start,
it wouldn't happen, Okay, granted, but you know, what did
you do to make things worse? You know? I mean,

(49:56):
and again I don't think she did it intentionally. I
don't think there's any intent with her. I just think
that you know, she was a parent trying to make
sure her kids got out, and uh, you know, I
don't think she knew this was gonna happen. You know,
she she seemed very remorseful. I mean, and again, you
know she was she was very candid with us in
the beginning. You know, she wasn't you know, I think

(50:19):
she realized that to be uh, the civil suit. Later on,
she probably wouldn't have been as frank with us as
she was. You know, she probably wouldn't have talked to
us at all or given us access to talk to
the kids. You know. And you know that that kind
of candor and openness, you know that that as an investigator,
that that speaks worlds to me. You know, later on

(50:40):
when the lawyers are coming in and dividing things up
and say don't talk, don't talk, don't talk. Uh, And
I would encourage everyone never, you know, never talk about
a lawyer. It's it's to be bad practice. Yeah. When
does the fish get well? On the other expression, when
does the fish get caught? When he opens his mouth?
All right?

Speaker 1 (51:00):
Now, I remember that scene in Homicide Life on the
street when Meldrick and Bayliss and Pembleton are going over
the box and they're saying, son, why did you ever
get in here in the first place. That's essentially you know,
that's how it is in real life as well. And
I have an article here from the Daily News March
of nineteen ninety nine where not only was miss benrum shuit, which,
like I said, later on in two thousand and two,

(51:21):
she ended up taking the court. I don't know how
she made out with that trial, probably not well. But
in March of nineteen ninety nine, just to backtrack a bit,
the building owners got sued. So quote here, tenants of
a West Side high rise damage in a fatal fire
that began in the apartment of actor mccullay Culkin's family
filed a twenty million dollars class action lawsuit yesterday that
would be March second, nineteen ninety nine against the buildings landlord.

(51:43):
And it goes on to say members of the South
South Park Towers Tenants Association want the owners to repair
the damage caused by the December twenty third blaze and
eliminate fire hazards they say exist through the fifty two
story structures fifty one Daily News didn't get that correct,
as we said. Four people died. They were trapped by smoking.
A stairwell began the nineteenth floor. She left the apartment

(52:03):
door opened. Spokesman for owners Nathan and Daniel Brodsky, said
many of the tenant's concerns were being addressed. The fire
was a terrible tragedy, said the aforementioned Michelle to Milly,
who we were referenced in the August two thousand and
one to your post article. The Broad Sky organization has
made herculean efforts to put this building back in shape
and record time and quote its second suit brought against

(52:26):
the building owners in January, the family of a twenty
eight year old woman killed in the blaze filed a
twenty million dollar.

Speaker 4 (52:31):
Wrongful death suit.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
So, I don't know if you had any interactions with
the Brodskys during the course of years.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
I did not, You.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Did not, Okay, But again, again, a lot of hazards
in that building, Billy, A lot of haz.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Well, you know, it's you know, I mean that that's
what comes out in the civil lawsuits. And again, you know,
I think sometimes that that brings some positive light to
it because you know, sunlight's the best disinfectant. So when
you start showing about some issues that were in the building,
you know, like i'd mentioned, you know the problem with
the elevators when the fire department arrived and the elevators

(53:04):
came down to the lobby and then the fire key
wouldn't bring the firemen up to the floor. You know,
that would have sped up the uh the response. Yeah,
I mean listen, you know, you know, anytime they have
these kind of fires, Mike, and there's there's debts involved,
they go over everything. What was the building constructed with,
what was the material, what was the fire ratings? Well,

(53:25):
you know what I mean, you know they go over
everything because I hate to say it, but it's it's
you know, it's a business, and they keep looking from
you know, who else can we put on the hook
for this? You know, the the company that made the
heating unit? Great, how about we get the building owner
that that that put it in? Was this the highest bid?
Who decided to get it in? Who was the engineer

(53:46):
that signed on? You know what I mean this there's
always someone when you're looking, you know, when you're looking
for someone to blame, you'll find someone. And that's what
insurance companies do. That's the all thing with subrogation, where
they all they all sue each other. You know, it's like, uh,
you know, I rear end your car. You know, your
insurance company pays you, but they sue my insurance company
to get that money back. Well, you know, just making

(54:09):
that that kind of a simple analogy. When you have
a fire like this with four fatalities, everybody, you know,
you know, the manufacturers, the people that you know, block
the door the building, you know, they throw it out
to everybody. And a lot of this too, is that
you know a lot of times insurance companies will turn
around and you know, they'll look at at a case

(54:32):
and they'll say, you know, okay, it's going to cost
us a million dollars to defend this. I'm just using
that as a as an example. It's going to cost
us a million dollars to defend this case. So let's
just turn out and say, hey, look, we'll offer you
a million dollars right now. You know, you take the money,
you usually have to sign some non disclosure that you know,

(54:53):
and then you won't come back with the later on.
But and that that very typically happens in lawsuits where
you know, the insurance come built around and say it's
cheaper to pay them and to go away, because when
they start figuring out we're gonna have to depose all
these witnesses, go through all the paperwork, and you know,
so a lot of times it's worth throwing the lawsuits side.

(55:14):
It's like the city gets sued all the time, you know,
I mean, you know, you trip on a kind. I mean,
there are legitimate suits against the city. You know, there
are people that are hurt and especially Lord no I've
been sued, you know, but you know a lot of
it is because you've got lawyers out there that are

(55:35):
are and I'm not knocking them because you know, quite frankly,
I worked for a lot of them. You know, this
is this is where we file the suit, We ask
for some ridiculous sum that we we know we're probably
never going to get, and you know, they settled somewhere
down the middle, and it usually you know, happened in
some law office, very quiet. And you know, a lot
of these things don't go to a full trial. I mean,

(55:56):
you know I've gone where the next day is going
to be uh uh, you know where you're gonna be
on the standpoll and witnesses, and they go in and
they make nice and they come up with a number
that makes both sides equally unhappy. And they can do that.
So I mean, in a fire like this again, four
people dead? Was there a problem with the heating unit?

Speaker 6 (56:18):
Was there?

Speaker 2 (56:18):
You know, you know, if you want someone to sue
in a case like this, there's plenty of people and
you know it's it's common they see the building owner.
Why building owners got a big insurance policy? You know,
why are they suing Patricia Mentrip? She's you know, the
Culcans have money. You know they're gonna show I don't
know she's loaded. I mean I think you know it's

(56:40):
it's uh McCully was was you know, the the bank.
You know, he was the one that was certainly the
most successful, at least at that stage of their lives.
And you know, it's funny when I I've dealt with
cases where you had prominent people or entertainers and sports figures,
and you know, people always think they have far more

(57:02):
money than they do. You know, people are, oh, I'll
assume one hundred million dollars. You know, I'm like, you know,
these guys don't have a one hundred million dollars if it,
you know, but every one things they do because they're
you know, they're prominently they're on right, they're probably we're
on television, people see them. You know, they put out
the pictures of themselves and the fancy cars and you know,

(57:22):
the jets and you know, ah, you know, you'd be
surprised how many of them don't have that kind of money.
You know, they're walking around money, but certainly I don't.
But uh, you know, I don't need that makes sense
of us. You know, of course I've been around the ridge.
They do have it. As you know in New York.
You know, let's not kid ourselves. There's a lot of
very wealthy people in the city.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Yeah, yeah, I seidy of eight million people. And you
dealt with some of the moment on the NYPD side
and the private sector side. We're talking with retired at
YPD Detective First Grate Bill Ryan. This special edition of
the Returning Tales from the Boot Room profiles the NYPDS
are an explosion in bomb Squad. We're looking back on
the infamous nineteen ninety eight apartment fire that occurred in
Manhattan at an apartment owned by the family of famous

(58:05):
child actor of Home Alone fame, particularly a coolie Kulkin. Now,
I wanted to paint a picture a little bit in
this New York Times article from December twenty ninth of
nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
We won't read the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
We'll read clips of it on who these people in
the apartment building that survived were and times. You know,
it's a great article. It's called for survivors of fatal fire,
a time for sorrow and rage. And again, won't read
the whole thing, but hear a couple little highlights from it.
More than two hundred residents of South Park Towers, of
fifty one story building at one twenty four West sixties

(58:36):
Street gathered last night at a nearby church to more
and with survivors and expressed their rage over a tragedy
that many of them said was avoidable. As we've been
discussing tonight.

Speaker 4 (58:46):
Quote.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
I didn't even know these people who died, but I
feel a connection to them and to those who made
it through the fire, said ros Goldberg, who at the
time was forty, as she walked into Saint Paul the Apostle,
Roman Catholic Church, which is next door to the building.

Speaker 4 (58:59):
Quote.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
I feel sad, but I also feel angry because they
died needlessly. And it goes on to describe how the
fire started. Jerome Rose with the time was sixty years old.
The concert pianist, who lives on the nineteenth floor, the
very floor where the fire started, and who played list
of consolation at last night's service, has been circulating petitions
among the residents, hoping to persuade officials to make the
city's fire code more stringent, with requirements for fire extinguishers

(59:22):
and sprinklers, and hallways in a public address system on
each floor, which is what you see a lot of
now in a lot of different places. My hope, he says,
is that something good can come out of this strategy,
not just for our building, but for everyone in the city.
A fire commissioner, Tom von Essen said yesterday that the
department would work with the owners of high rise buildings
to help them teach tenants what to do in the
event of a fire. Who posted notices quote people have

(59:44):
this idea that you just grab the kids and go.
That's only for one or two story buildings. And I'll
conclude with reading this blurb here. Officials were continuing their
investigation yesterday into what caused a blaze, which they suspect
began in a wall mounted heating You to gum wrapper
and other combustible debris were found wedged inside another unit
in the Coulkin family's apartments. That an investigator, who spoke

(01:00:06):
on the condition of anonymity, quote, if you've got paper
and other junk crammed inside a heater, it's a formula
for trouble and quote the investigator said. Mister Colkin's three
younger brothers lived in the apartment, as did his mother,
Patricia Ventum, according to neighbors. So and that's the thing.
You see the toll in the aftermath of the fire too.
It's not just the damage it does on a material level.

(01:00:27):
It's not even just the lives it takes. In this case,
it took four. It's the trauma and the damage emotionally
the people who survived it have to live with afterwards.
And it seems like a pretty tight knit building. And
now you know, they lose four residents, they lose possessions
in some cases. And as one of the you know
residents quote in that article said, these people died needlessly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yeah, you know, there's no way to put it. I mean,
you know they didn't have to die, you know, but
as Tom by Essen said, you know, you can't treat
you know, you're you're on the twenty twenty fifth or
twenty ninth or whatever floor of the building. You know,
I mean that you know again, you know, I mean,

(01:01:10):
even if you're of good health and you get that's
a lot the force to get down, and you know,
it's it's just something that you know, you're not looking
at it like you're on a ground floor, two story
or maybe three story building. I mean, it's it's it's
tough to get out. But the only way you can

(01:01:30):
really handle that, like I said, is through educating people
and letting them know. You know, they talk about fire
extinguishers in the hallway. I mean, you know, fire extinguisher
wasn't going to do a damn thing. You know, it's
the smoke, you know, if it was the fire coming out,
you know, I'll give you that. And I'm not saying
not to put fire extinguishers in. You know, there's always

(01:01:51):
a great idea to have them around. You know, better
to have it than not to have it. But you know,
if you had fire extinguishers in any four of that building,
that wouldn't have saved the lives of those four people.
And you know, this is what happens in the aftermath.
You know, all right, we can't bring them back. So
what do we learn from this to not let it

(01:02:12):
happen again? And you know, as you mentioned a moment ago, Mike,
you know, I mean I think you had over five
hundred apartments in this place. I mean, you know, those
people are traumatized for good. I mean, you know, can
you imagine anytime a fire engine pulls up or they
hear some kind of a fire alarm in the building.
I mean, it's it's gotta you know, be some form
of PTSD where it brings it all rushing back to them.

(01:02:35):
And you know, I mean it, you know, you don't
just get over that. And again, I don't think you know,
they weren't anyone's favorite tenant in the building. I can
tell you that, not so much, Patricia. But you know,
like I said, you know, the kids would come in
all hours. I mean, they really weren't strictly supervised. And

(01:03:00):
you know, like I said, they were, they were, you know,
kids that had a lot of money and not a
lot of supervision. And I think that you know, they
bring their friends in and you know, you know, just
you know, nobody was I think sorry to see them
leave the building. You know, I don't know if they
owned it or or they were leasing it or what.

(01:03:21):
But you know, it's it's important just to say to yourself,
you know, know your neighbors, know your friends in the building,
try to help each other out. You know, you know,
you probably if they probably called down to the lobby,
hey what's going on? But again, you know, when they
have a fire like that, you have five hundred apartments,
you call the lobby. You know, what's the chance of

(01:03:41):
your call is going to get through? And uh, you
know a lot of people were smart. You know they
called nine one one, and I think you know the
nine to eleven dispatches. It's like, don't open the door,
don't open the door. You know, well, I'm on I'm
on my porch, I'm outside. It's called stay there. You know,
we'll we'll, we'll come to you, you know. And but

(01:04:03):
but I I don't know if some of the things
they mentioned would make a difference, Like I said, fire extinguisher.
I mean, you know, that's that's not going to stop.
You know, some thermal plume of smoke tearing up the
you know, the the the stairwell. You know, it's a
you know, it's like a smoke monster and loss. It
just goes through and it just takes out what's in

(01:04:25):
its path, you know, and you know you don't need
to breathe it very long to you know, to be
overwhelmed by it. You know, it doesn't kill you like that,
you know, just you're become incapacitated, you pass out and
then you know, you you just keep inhaling it and
you go. So I don't know how much that helped,

(01:04:45):
but I think what does help is the fact that,
you know, like we talked about a while ago, you know,
you're creating a dialogue about safety. What else? What else
can we do? You know, it's it's kind of like,
you know, you work with the fire service. You know,
there's awest a kind of after action report. Okay, this
is what happened. We can't fix what happened, good or bad.
What can we do they try to make it a

(01:05:06):
more favorable outcome next time? What can we do about
getting the people living in the building a trained on
what to do? You know, do we you know, do
we do fire safety thing in the building? Do we
you know, do we do we post things up on
the walls. You know, Here's where you go, Here's what
you do. Here's what you don't do. You know, don't

(01:05:28):
take the elevators, don't you know, keep the doors closed.
You know what I mean? You give people some information
they can actually use, and you can't make it complicated
because you know, people aren't really you know, these aren't
people to deal with these kind of crisises, you know.
So I'm all in favor of that, But you know,

(01:05:48):
I don't know how much of that would have would
have made a difference in the four people's lives. I
think they just unfortunately panicked. And you know, like I said,
if they if they stayed in their apartments, be alive today.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
In Hindsight's twenty twenty, I guess the thing that we
can go on this with. And it's been a great
hour looking back on this case. For the special edition
of Tails in the boom Room Profiles at the NYPD's
Arts and Explosion of Bomb Squad Volume thirty seven is
this is nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 4 (01:06:15):
Since then, high rise codes have changed. We all know why.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
September eleventh, two thousand and one definitely put a higher
focus on that with the attack of the World Trade Center,
but even without nine to eleven Twyschbank fire in two
thousand and seven that killed two firefighters comes to mind.
The Twin Park fire at the Bronx a couple of
years ago which killed seventeen residents and then also comes
to mind.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
So a lot has changed, Unfortunately some hasn't changed.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
So in the context of all that, almost twenty six
years later since you investigated that fire, Billy, when you
look back on this incident December of nineteen ninety eight,
what are your thoughts almost three decades later?

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
You know, I my biggest thought is, you know, what
do we do to make sure people know how to
protect themselves? You know, I mean, you know, you want
to get people a takeaway, like I mentioned a moment ago,
some useful information. You can't overload it with other of
technical things. But you see, I've seen signs and and

(01:07:15):
some things where you know, hey, close the door, close
the door, close the door. And you know, I think
that's that's a message that's been getting out the people.
I think people are more careful about uh you know,
their heating units and and and you know, but unfortunately,
you know, it depends on the type of building. I mean,
this was, you know, a high rise building in a

(01:07:38):
good neighborhood. Was a well maintained building, or at least you know,
it certainly appeared to be didn't seem you know, that
it was run down or or or was in disrepair.
And uh, you know, all you can do is try
to teach people as best you can what to do
when the fire happens. You know, you know, I don't

(01:07:59):
think everything that was done was wrong. I mean, you know,
she's Mom's counting the kids up, get them out, you know,
I mean, you know, it just becomes a thing where
you know, if it was probably a low rise building,
it's still would have happened. But people to be able
to get out, you know, it's you have to be
aware when you're living in a building that high up.

(01:08:20):
You know you got great views, but you know you
have some issues about you know, if you had to
get out of an emergency, even if something like a blackout,
you know there's no power and now you know you
can't depend on the elevator. So I think people need
to know how to get in and out of fires.
You know, it wouldn't be the worst idea to try
to run some kind of periodic fire drills at pressure

(01:08:43):
post things about that. You know, I don't know what
the problem was with the elevator in the building that day.
You know, was that something that was you know, a
disrepair thing or was it just you know, did it
is just not work? I mean, you know, you can,

(01:09:04):
you can go over all these things and say, you know,
what could I do better? But I think it's important
that you at least try to go over those things
to say, hey, you know what, what what can we
teach people? And like, you know, I'm kind of repeating myself,
but it's you know, you want to get people usable
information that's not complicated. So it's something as simple as
close the door, have a fire, extinguishing your apartment for

(01:09:26):
a little bit of a fire. You know, when you
have a fire in the house, where do we all
if our house is on fire? Where are we going
to all meet later on? So we know none of
us are locked inside the apartment where no one's missing,
you know what I mean, Like, you know, oh, I
can't find John, Where is he well, we're all going
to meet over here by the playground if there's a

(01:09:47):
fire in the house, that we will know if any
of us are missing. Maybe more elevator inspections for that.
But you know, again, you know, hindsight's twenty twenty, and
unfortunately these things don't get addressed until there's a problem,
you know, much like all the problems in Vindalia, you know,

(01:10:09):
I mean, it was just, you know, it takes the
tragedy to make things happen. I mean, you know, even look,
you know you talked about nine to eleven, but you know,
look at all the problems with the radios and the
communication and how things went. You know, those those problems
existed for a hell of a long time. You know,
they weren't new problems. They weren't problems that the powers

(01:10:32):
that be weren't aware of. It was only when an
unprecedented tragedy like that happens. Oh you know, okay, we'll
do something about it. You know, it's you know that
that that's the way it always seems to be in
the first response. I mean, you know, it was funny
where even in the police department, you know, where you

(01:10:55):
had for years we had revolvers, and they wouldn't let
us use speedloaders. It was almostly gump pouches, you know.
And then uh, an officer out in the far rockaway,
scot at Dell got killed while he was reloading his gun. Yeah,
and uh, I mean Robert Rawlson killed him in an alleyway, uh,
while he was reloading the next thing all of a sudden, okay, what.

Speaker 4 (01:11:19):
Snuck up behind him? I believe in that shootout.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, then
you get speedloaders and then I mean, you know or
or you know, when the uh, when the firemen were
trapped and then they they you know, strange left. They
didn't have rope, you know, yeah, you know, I mean,
you know, I hate to say it, but you know,
things only seem to improve with with blood shedding, and

(01:11:45):
you know, it's a damn shame, but you know, unfortunately
that's sometimes what it takes to to wake people up.
And you hope then in the sacrifices that you know,
you you improve things somehow, whether it's something is simp
was an equipment thing by you know, giving guys speed
loaders or fireman rope or or better radiosh, you know,

(01:12:09):
you know, these things are paid for in blood. You know,
I get, I get a lot of these things are
expensive to implement. But you know, what's what's what's you know,
dead cops and fireman worth you know, I mean, that's
the thing. It's like it. But don't even start me
on that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
I'm gonna say, improvements, but at what costs? Like look
at Watts, look at Cadell, look at all these different
cases where look at Deutsche Bank. Okay, yes we've made improvements. Yeah,
but we lost good people in the line of duty
as a result. So that's a different story for a
different day. But this was this was one of the things.
And again it came together spontaneously because when I was
interviewing Chief Myers best Friday, you commented you were at

(01:12:46):
that fire. So I literally a producer vic Can confirmed this,
like I should reach out to Billy, let's do a
show on this. And sure enough, I know you're always game,
so I'm glad you came on, and sure enough, here
we are talking about this incident, which, again, even if
it's may even if it may not be the most
fascinating case of the nineties compared to everything else you investigated.

Speaker 4 (01:13:03):
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
It's worth a deep dive because it's these little cases
that get lost and the bigger incidents that unfortunately get forgotten,
but not tonight. So I'm glad we were able to
revisit it. Thank you again for coming on and making
the plug. And before we sign off, I plugged myself tonight.
Good folks, Matt City. Yes, life on the edge of
the FD and Y and NYPD. But plug yourself. My
friend Ryan Investigators who.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Wrote the forward to this, who wrote the forward to this,
Oh okay, just.

Speaker 4 (01:13:30):
To Bill Ryan himself, plug away, my friend.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Well, thank you. Yeah, you know Ryan Investigative Group. You
know we we do all types of private investigation cases,
missing persons. Uh. You know, if you need legal process served,
you know we can take care of that for you.
Three four seven four one oh give us a call.
We give you free consultation. We talk about you know,

(01:13:53):
what your case is. And you know, I pride myself
on I don't take cases. If I don't feel I
can I don't feel I can help you, I probably
won't take your case, you know. And we have people
sometimes like, you know, I don't care. Here's the money.
I'm like, I'm not going to take your money. If
I feel I can't help you, I'm not going to
do that. You know, That's how I keep my reputation,
and I think that's important. I think that's that's how

(01:14:15):
my business has grown and I have the clients that
I have. But you know, you inspired me, my friend.
You know, maybe I'll write a book next.

Speaker 4 (01:14:25):
You should.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
I keep telling you and just give you a little
inside baseball. Billy and I talk often off the air,
and I keep telling him and prodding him and prodding
him some more.

Speaker 4 (01:14:33):
Right to the book, right the right already. You know
you have all these earn that home, earn that home.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
You know, everything in the twenty years, your time on patrol,
your time of course getting into the Techtive Bureau itself,
doing Missing Persons for a bit, A and E write.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
It man, Well, you know it's funny. You know, I
appreciate your kind words. You know, I was talking for
the show with with my wife Elizabeth, and you know,
I say, you know, one of the many things I
get a kick out of with your show is like,
especially when you're interviewing fire guests, you'll talk about something
and like like like Pa Chief Myers. You know, Thecaulay

(01:15:09):
Culca fire all time, oh I was there, or in
another case, you know, you were talking about the Watt
Street fire and I'm like, oh, I mean that was
just you know, a heartbreaker. And yeah, and as you will,
you mean, you'll talk about fires. And you know, I
spent thirteen years in Amy from ninety three to two
thousand and four, and you know, there probably wasn't too

(01:15:32):
many major fire cases in the city, especially with loss
of life where you know, I wasn't somehow involved in
the case, either directly being at the scene or doing
some of the follow upon it. And you know, it
was a great experience. I worked with a lot of
great people. You know, I mentioned John Faust and Kevin Perett,
but you know, certainly, you know many many people that
we work with in the you know, some excellent fire marshals.

(01:15:55):
You know, you know, how'd you go with the fire marshals.
I got with fire marshals pretty well. I mean, you know,
it's like anything else. You know, there's there's detectives I
didn't get along with, as fire marshals I didn't get
along with. But I mean, yeah, well overall, I thought,
you know, we all work pretty well. Together, you know,
was it was about solving the case, you know, whether
it was a criminal case or or just had it happen.

(01:16:16):
And you know, you gotta have that curiosity. And I'm
very fortunate that they got to work with a lot
of great police and fire professionals, and you know it
was a great honor.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
Well Sad, my friend, Thank you very much. And just
before I say godbye, I see Pete to Gretty in
the chat and you're another one, Pete, because I keep
trying to get you on the show. Former email, longtime
veteran of reversity service. Oh I'm boring. Oh I'm just
not that. It doesn't matter. I heard your stories, I
know your career. I keep waiting for you to come
on the show, Pete. So come on the show, and
I will keep bothering you until you do. I say
that with love. But in any events, come on in

(01:16:50):
the flying exactly exactly, Thank you, Billy. As always, we'll
talk off air stick around. This has been a special
edition of Tail from the boot Room Profiles at the
end Ipd's Arson, Explosion and bombs. What Tonight We look
back in the nineteen ninety eight mcullay Culkin apartment Fire
and that is the book. Yes, for those of you
watching on YouTube, Facebook and LinkedIn Good Folks, Matt City,
Life on the Edge and the FDNY and NYPD and

(01:17:12):
you can get merch to the Mike David podcast is
selling such merch. O't linked that in description as well
as soon as I possibly can. I don't think we're
going to have a show this Monday. I mean, it's
a lot of people out the day off, so we
probably won't do anything. But we do have a show
next Friday, and that will be with former NYPD Chief
of Detectives Pop Boys. Uh did thirty five years in
the job from nineteen eighty three until too.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
That great guy. He's gonna be a wonderful guest. Very
knowledge that one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
And an advanced shout out to Scott Wagner who really
helped me put that one together. Scotty yes man, Yeah,
he's yeah, He's an absolutely gem of a guy and
he was able to connect me with Chief Boys, so
I appreciate that. Scotty is always a big shout out
to you. That'll be next Friday, six pm. Thirty five
years in the job. He's doing a lot in retirement

(01:17:57):
now with the as a consultant with the ABC News.
It's his own crime series on the Oxygen channel. So
there's that coming up, and.

Speaker 4 (01:18:04):
We'll see what the rest of the month rolls out.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
And we'll keep you posting on that as we go.
In the meantime, big shout out to everybody that watched tonight,
rather you were watching on YouTube, LinkedIn and Facebook.

Speaker 4 (01:18:14):
Like I said, ball you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
Thirty seven of Tail from the boom Room for those
of you listening on the audio side tonight from their
nineteen ninety album Galore, It's the Cure with pictures of you.
In the meantime, I'll be half of retired NYP detective
Bill Ryan and producer Victor. Hi am Mike coloone. We
will see you next time. Have a great weekend, Buy
my book, buy my merch and let's go Yankee.

Speaker 4 (01:18:34):
Good night, Take care.

Speaker 7 (01:20:26):
I've been looking so long with this pictures of you
that I almost believe the there.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
I've been living so long with my pictures of you
that I almost believe that.

Speaker 7 (01:20:46):
Pictures are all I feel.

Speaker 3 (01:21:12):
Now, standing quiet, rad as I run to your heart
to be.

Speaker 4 (01:21:22):
The chist as spy, very.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
Holding kles, have I always held closer your you may
swelling sod.

Speaker 4 (01:21:37):
Through the book you are bigger write?

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
Why did that SnO scream? Had the mad believe screaming
out st you finally found are your color? Let it
all go, and now father, you to my fine father, deah.

Speaker 6 (01:22:26):
Of your heart, your stone light so dead, the still
are always so long, still the time now marrying you,
how you used to be.

Speaker 7 (01:22:46):
It's so drowned, your angels, so much more than everything,
oh father, last time and still over quietly.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
Oh my heart, that I never said. Only I done
of the rioting words I couldn't held off to you,
And only I know of the rite worlds I wn

(01:23:21):
need bred.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
All my pictures, of.

Speaker 5 (01:23:51):
Speeches, sosts, mister Stead.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
There was nothing more but I love the most mo
But take you my There was nothing in the world
that I never want to know, and to never my
hat n my pet. She saw

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