Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to the Bike Did You Even podcast hosted
by media personality and consultant Mike Glow. You're listening to
(01:02):
the best of the Bravest interviews with the FD and
y Elite. You know, really, since the program came back,
we haven't done any FD interviews I've noticed, and we've
done strictly PD and I love PDS, you know, we
love both equally of this program, but I wanted to
get back to the best of the Bravest, either in
(01:23):
the nationwide capacity or most notably since it was the
first mini series we had of the best of the
Bravest series, each of them respectively was of course the
FD and HY aspect the best of the Braves. Tonight
we do get back to it. The next few shows
will be FD themes, which I look forward to, and
we'll talk about that towards the end of the program.
We got to get great guests coming up tonight. Welcome back,
(01:44):
ladies and gentlemen to the Mike the New Aven Podcast,
Episode three hundred and fifty six. The last two were
PD related, of course. Vernon Geberth, who was the Lieutenant
Commander of Bronx Homicide for a long time came on
the show, talked about the investigation into the infamous Larry
Davis shooting, amongst me any other stories, a card chase
involving John Gotti before really anybody kne who John Gotti was,
(02:05):
amongst many other great stories he told. And of course
prior to that, Rodney Harrison, former NYPD Chief of Department
in Suffolk County Police Commissioner. So, like I said, we
covered PD well in the Comeback Tonight. We'll get back
into our FD roots with our next guest. But first,
of course, a word from Billy Ryan. The Mike thing
you have in podcast is proudly sponsored and supported by
(02:26):
the Ryan Investigative Group. If you need an elite PI,
look no further than the elite Ryan Investigative Group, which
is run by retired NYP Detective Bill Ryan, a twenty
year veteran of the Department who served the majority of
his career in the detective Bureau, most notably in the
arson explosion squad. So, if you need a PI to
handle anything from fraud, legal services, and anything else that
(02:46):
you might require, contact Bill at three four seven four
one seven sixteen ten. Again three four seven four one
seven sixteen ten. Reach him at his website or the
email that you see here. Again, if you need a PI,
look no further than Bill Ryan and the Ryan Investigative,
who a proud supporter and sponsored of the Mike de
Newhaven Podcast. I'll shout out some friends watching tonight in
(03:07):
a moment before I introduced my guest, but I've you
remiss if I didn't mention this. I'm going to share
the screen here so you could see. This is Ray Morou.
And now those of you in the fire service probably
heard about this. We had a tragedy in Connecticut that
I wanted to mention here. Ray Moreau was a volunteer
firefighter in the Plain Bill Department, which is a volunteer department,
and they had an early morning structure fire just after
six am. Multiple alarms were called for it and he
(03:28):
responded and unfortunately, during the course of operations, a piece
of the truck we don't know what piece. It has
to be investigated she came loose struck him, causing a
severe bloock force trauma, mainly to his legs. He was
rushed at the hospital where unfortunately, during surgery he died.
And he is the first line of duty death at
the Plainville Fire Department has had in five decades. You know,
(03:49):
it doesn't matter if it's pay or volunteer. The common
theme is firefighting, as we've talked about with many of
our previous guests, is one dangerous, dangerous, dangerous job. And
he understood that, and for thirty five years he went
out and put his life on the line and do
just that, and he lost his life unfortunately in the
process of doing those duties over the weekend. So I
just wanted to send my deepest condolences out to the
(04:11):
Plainville Fire Department and all who knew him, and will
dedicate this episode tonight in his memory. So again, dangerous job,
but we certainly celebrate those who do it. Greetings to
Chris Ebden, John Costello, Garrett Lingren Steve Kerr, William Cooney
and many more tuning in tonight and I hope you
enjoyed the episode. My next guest is a retired FDNY
assistant chief who rose through the ranks from EMT to
(04:32):
senior leadership over the course of a distinguished thirty six
year career with deep experience in emergency medical operations, public
safety management, and crisis leadership both in the field and
administratively the help shape how pre hospital care was delivered
in New York City, and that for volume sixty seven
of the best of the Bravest interviews with the fdny's
elite is retired fd Andy EMS Assistant Chief Jerry Gombo
(04:54):
Chief Welcome, How are you hi?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Good? Thank you for having me, good.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Evening, Good to have you here. Garrett Lndgren, who later
finished up his career and rescued three mentions. I was
with FAX seventy eight to eighty five New York City
EMS seventy eight to eighty one, so maybe across paths
with them at some point, and of course a lot
of each other individuals in the chat we were talking
about off there, you know, and we'll hear from them
throughout the show. But before I get into anything involving
public safety, two part question A where did you grow up?
(05:20):
And B did you always know you wanted to be
involved in some form of civil service?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So I grew up on the Lower East Side of Manhattan,
raised him, born there, and actually I remained there until
I got married and then moved to Queens in eighty one.
Nice Did I know that I wanted to be involved
with public service? Yes, when I finished high school, I
(05:46):
started college and it just wasn't my thing. I took
some courses and then I started teaching for the Red Cross,
various first aid classes. I took in EMPT class at
Pace going down back then it was peakman A Hospital
downtown Manhattan. And then I joined the local Volunteer Ambulance
(06:13):
Service and I also was involved with the auxiliary police
rescue down in the seventh Precinct.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So for those that may not be familiar, because I'm
certainly not, we know the auxiliary portion of the NYPDES,
But as far as the police rescue function, what did
that entail back then?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So they responded to medical emergencies, assist ems and fire
at the time, with any type of medical calls that
were in backlog.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay, very interesting enough. Yeah, there was a lot of
backlog back then. Ems, as I've talked about with several
guests before, was stretched in and they were doing more
with less and it was impressive, to say the least.
So you began originally as an EMT in October of
seventy nine. Usually it's a little while where guys work
the field as an EMPT before they make the jump
to medic So you made the jump to medic rather
(07:05):
quickly in a year's timeframe. Why not that I'm not
going to you worked out great, but why so quickly?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
So I had some experience as an EMT prior to
onboarding with EMS. At the time, just to paint the
picture of what was going on. EMS was part of HC,
the Health and Hospitals Corporation, which comprised primarily of sixteen
(07:31):
municipal hospitals. So EMS was treated just like another hospital.
We had our own executive director and all the administrative
services on location in Maspith. That's where the headquarters was.
(07:51):
So at that time, in order to get on to EMS,
there was a paper application. I think it was three
or four age is nothing too intense. You file the
application and then you just waited to be called. Once
you're cooled, then they process your application and they send
(08:13):
you down for your medical. Being that it's AHHAC I believe.
Back then we went to King's County for our medical
and then once you're done with that, you get invited
to go to their onboarding process, which was in Massiff.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So at the time we're talking with the retired or
you're sorry, you're gonna mention something no, no, no, And
we're talking with a retired FNYEMS Assistant chief, Jerry Dabo.
This is volume sixty seven of the best of the
Bravest Interviews with the fives Elite. If you have a question,
the chat of course is always rather be tuning in
via Facebook, LinkedIn or YouTube fire away and we'll try
to get it answered for you. So the landscape's changing
(08:59):
at this time, becoming a medica. It's transformative time in
the city because, as I mentioned, even if EMS had
all the resources that they would later get as time progressed,
there was a lot to do. Besides the usual medical emergencies.
You have a high crime rate, and with a high
crime rate comes a lot of violent crime. Now, even
if you're working in a quieter part of the city,
(09:20):
you're going to find it eventually, and back then it
wasn't hard to find during that era. So for you,
I hate to call it trial by fire because education
is education, especially in that type of field. But depending
on where you were working. I mean, if you made
a mistake in the field at six thirty, it seemed
like back then you could have corrected it by eight
forty five. Given the sheer amount of madness going on
(09:40):
the streets.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
So when I started out as an EMT and I
went through my two week training orientation at Maspith, I
was actually assigned to cumple In Hospital, which is no
longer in existence, at least as a hospital. Downtown Brooklyn
and downtown Brooklyn did not look like it looks like today.
(10:07):
As you indicated, the streets were violent. There was a
lot of drugs and a lot of crime going on.
So you really got experience very quickly. Ye, going back then,
if you did less than fifteen eighteen jobs during the
(10:30):
course of the tour, it's like you had the day off.
You just did back to back to back halls. And
also keeping in mind going back then, it was a
totally different type of patient care rendered. We didn't have PPE.
(10:50):
This was pre HIV, so there were no gloves. I
used to come home at the conclusion of the tour,
even though the uniform were green at the time, full
just full of blood. Each each tour it was mandatory
to wash the uniforms and and in fact the uniforms
(11:12):
was something that you had to purchase on your own.
Back then, there were a few authorized vendors that you
could purchase so that they would have a close MS
color to the Hunter green, and you were pretty much
on your own as far as uniforms were concerned.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I didn't know that was a thing back then, but
I guess such as the era that I mean, we
know authorized vendors exist now, but as far as pursuing
your own uniform, I be I guess that was how
things were.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
You know, they had a uniform allowance that you were
reimbursed annually for the uniform, but for the most part,
it costs more to purchase it than the than the
allowance covered.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
You know, I wanted to ask you to in line
of what pre hospital care looked like back then. I've
had the chance to work alongside some really talented medics
out in the field and learn a lot from their tutelage.
Als care now is night and day from what it
was back then. Across the board. It doesn't matter where
you were in the country. But I'll ask you, as
a medic during that time in New York City, what
(12:21):
did als care even consist of? What was it common
for a medic to carry?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So we had the life pack five and we had
our drug box, which consisted of maybe a dozen different medications.
We had a tube kit to intbate the patient. You
asked about why I became a medic so quickly I
(12:51):
felt that I was a good EMT at the time,
and they were advertising for mes need the empties with
experience to take the paramedic exam. It was basic reading, comprehension,
also empt questions, some math. I took the exam and
(13:18):
in January of eighty I was offered to a seat
in Jacoby eight at Jacoby Einstein Hospital to attend that program.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And again that was kind of a landmark. Not that
medics didn't exist in New York City before, but given
what would spawn out of that. I mean again, especially
as someone that later went into aspects of teaching it
not too long after this, you must have look back
and say, wow, imagine if your instructors then could see
what's being taught today and just how long and artowich
the process is to become a paramedic as it should be.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So the instructors were great, you know, shout out to them.
Actually I had I had Kevin Brown who's now doctor
Kevin Brown, Wally Cotter who's now doctor Wally Cotter, Ron Maffay,
They were phenomenal instructors and even to today, whenever I
(14:16):
think about protocols or whatever, BackFlash to that training. They
trained you that well.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So your experience kind of really in the middle of
you working the field led you to becoming an instructor
yourself around nineteen eighty three. It's great to give back,
and you were wearing two hats at the same time
by working the field and of course later on teaching
the next generation. What were some of the key points
of someone that was out there seeing a wide variety
of emergency calls that you would hammer to your students.
(14:47):
What did you mean? You did want them to know
as much as possible, but what were the points that
you really wanted them to emphasize.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
So really it was to be aware. Safety was a
big issue because of everything that was going on. Although
I have to tell you, for the most part, when
EMS responded to any type of violent crimes or trauma
(15:14):
or anything along those lines, people were very respectful. No
one really bothered with the MS. They were glad to
see you. For a lot of patients, we were the
primary care so the neighborhoods looked out for their EMS crews.
(15:37):
But when it came to teaching, the emphasis was on
trauma and being able to stabilize and transport as soon
as possible in an attempt to save someone that was
in critical need.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Of course, that could be anything cardiac or asth stabbing, MBA.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Is there a call in.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Line with that early on that sticks out where you
were really able to make an impact, or even if
not a call that taught you a lot, at the
very minimum, influenced how you taught going forward, were able
to help others learn.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
A lot of our calls. We were drug overdoses back then.
When I finished the academy, and that was in August
of eighty the way they handled it back then, you
were rotated through three different parts of the city so
(16:37):
that you would really hone in on your medical experience
and not only deal with one type of medical emergency,
for example, trauma. So when I finished paramedic training, my
first assignment was actually Bellevue Hospital out of Midtown Manhattan,
(16:59):
and that was a wonderful work experience because you were
able to get a lot of different types of calls.
Wasn't all trauma, wasn't all medical. It was a nice
combination of calls and you really were able to hone
(17:21):
in on your skills, and I had some great partners
of Gary and Vinnie. They were wonderful mentors, you know,
and they because the truth of the matter is once
you come out of school, that's when you first start learning.
I mean, the basics you have, the skills are there,
(17:42):
but recognizing different types of medical emergencies and dealing with
that and they guide you through that. And that's important
for anybody that is going to be a mentor to
a newly empty or a new medic to guide them
and allow them to take the lead and just make
(18:03):
sure they do it correctly.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Absolutely, And I imagine that played a role too. You
wanted to become a lieutenant and move up the ranks,
and this began your rank ascension around nineteen eighty five.
So some people kind of go into the field rather
be police fire or ems, knowing I'd like to be
in a position of authority as an officer someday. Others
that kind of comes to them as during their time
in the field. What was your mentality towards that test
(18:26):
and what prompt you to finally decide, you know what
I want to go for this?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So it's interesting you say that because I can honestly
say I was just the opposite. I wanted to just
be a medic. I love rendering care, I love saving people,
helping people at the worst times. My motto was, if
you treat everybody like family, you can't go wrong. And
(18:52):
I loved being a medic. So I took the exam
because it was the first civil service exam that was
being offered to ems for the rank of lieutenant. And
in essence, I deferred the promotion twice. And you'll have
(19:18):
three times that you could defer, and then once you
defer the third time, you're like lose your place on
the list. So I remember after Bellevue, I did a
few years at King's County, worked with a bunch of
people that are listening now, and then after that I
(19:43):
was assigned to Coney Island. And really in Coney Island,
that's where you you learned a lot about medicine. There
was a lot a big older population there, like Cardiac
City as opposed to Yeah, I mean, you had your
(20:04):
share of trauma also, but a lot more medical type
of calls. And I had this one lieutenant who, let's
just say, was not the best of lieutenants I got you.
And just to give you an example, I was always
(20:27):
I was always early for my shift, used to check
out the vehicle, so this way, when the bell rang,
I was ready to go out and save lives. One
time I hit traffic on the belt it was some
major accident. I ended up coming like an hour and
a half late for my shift. And you know, we
(20:48):
didn't have cell phones back then. There was no way
of contacting the station to let them know you're going
to be the late. So when I came in, I
tried to explain to the tenant what happened. He wouldn't
hear from it. And this is an employee that for
the most part, I came in, checked out my vehicle,
(21:10):
and got out, and supervision didn't see me for the
rest of the day. And I enjoyed that part of it.
And after he stopped me an hour and a half
for coming late and reading me the riot Act, I
thanked him for that, and I said, do you know,
(21:33):
I'm going to take that lieutenant position and I'm going
to move up the ranks. And the reason I'm going
to do that is I'm going to take your job.
And we left it at that, and that was the
trigger for me to move on to supervision. There you go,
(21:55):
but you required about instructing as well. So I was
really reluctant to take the promotion because I really wanted
to work as a medic, and once you're promoted to lieutenant,
you were not able to work anymore as a paramedic
(22:17):
on an ambulance, and I wasn't really ready to give
that up. So as an alternate means, I started getting
involved with teaching and instructing. This way I could keep
involved and keep learning the trade.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
That's a nice thing about teaching. I was going to say.
It's not only beneficial to the student, but it also
keeps the instructor sharp, because naturally you have a lot
of experience working the street. But there's that you often
hear it in PD, this vernacular, the saying rather, it's
the letter of the law, the spirit of the law. Well,
it's kind of the same thing in EMSI fid it's
the letter of education yesterday. It's also a spirit of
how you apply it up the street if one stays
(23:02):
consistent in teaching, even if not formally, but just to
those coming on who are learning the ropes. I find
it's also equally beneficial to the instructor. Sure, a tech's
beneficial to you, and and.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Things are constantly changing, new equipment, new protocols. So if
you're not engaged in active patient care, you sort of
like are not involved. And here you are supervising the
folks that are doing it. So you really want to
stay on top of your game so that you can
(23:36):
help out to the extent possible.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Of course, a couple questions in the chat, but so
to E M j E. I see your question. When
we get later on to the merger between EMS and
the fking Well, I'm gonna highlight it, but I do
see it, and it's a good one, so I won't
forget it. Thank you for submitting it. Joe Maliga and
I have not done this in a while on the program.
It's our running joke. He's a retired correctional officer out
of Upstate, New York, and anytime I get AD or
(24:00):
FT guest on, especially if they worked the MS and
the ft side, did you ever When he says delivery,
he says, you see the question here he's talking about babies.
Did you ever deliver a baby? I'm sure the answer
is yes.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
So yes. In fact, the first baby that I delivered
was the most memorable one. It was New Year's Eve
and something that for the most part, it's EMT's basic
life support that are assigned to obs types of polls.
(24:36):
I was working New Year's Eve out of Liberty Outposts
in East New York and we got a call actually
close to midnight for a woman that's in labor. We
arrived by partner and I at the scene and there
(24:58):
was this huge party going on in this apartment and
there was this woman in the middle of the floor
sitting down ready to have a baby at the time,
and it was very interesting. There was a fire company
across the street and they responded as well, and the
(25:22):
firefighters were very interested in how to deliver a baby.
And it was my first one, so I talked my
way through it. Everybody was dancing around, the music was playing,
and here I was teaching the firefighters how to deliver
(25:42):
this baby. The baby it was the woman's fourth baby delivered,
and the rest is history. But I remember that like
it was yesterday. She said the answer the question, Yes,
I delivered babies.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
She'd been there veteran of this, you know. I'm pretty
sure she wasn't faced shout out to anybody, including your Yeah,
I know, I shout out to anybody that's ever had
to do that, because I have not been put in
that position yet in my young EMS career. I'm sure
I will be at some point and we'll see how
I react.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Then it's a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Good to do, good to do, and it sounds like, hey,
it's a new life coming into the world, and as
long as everybody comes out healthy, that's the most important thing.
That's definitely the most important thing. So it's interesting in
the eighties because Rob Becker's coming in, or Bob Becker
rather is coming into the fold. Steve Kurz there, Goldfarb's there,
and what they're realizing is what we talked about off air.
(26:40):
We can get into it now. EMS needs more. I mean,
it was essentially treated like a step child back then,
and you had the ft and Y, you had the NYPD,
and yeah, of course you also have the House of
Police and Transit Police because it wasn't just one department
back then. But EMS was right in the nitty gritty
of a lot of these calls running in with PD
and FD depending on the type of call. But the
(27:00):
resources weren't there. A lot of people credit Becker in
particular as the guy that, as one person put it
to me off here, quote unquote, helped bring New York
City EMS out of the dredges as this was happening.
You're now an officer, so you're seeing these changes happen.
I'm pretty sure you maybe were even advocating for them
to a healthy degree. Just tell me about the two
(27:21):
part question here ems's evolution in the late eighties and
how helpful that was. And also, you didn't want to
be like the officer you had prior, trying to find
your footing as an officer and instill the good qualities
of leadership that you didn't have the benefit of working
under before.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
So one of the things that I always try to
do is when involved with different levels of supervision, is
to identify the aspects that I thought were worth pursuing
as opposed to aspects that didn't work out that well,
(28:03):
at least in my opinion. So Chief beca he was
absolutely a catalyst. He was very vocal at the time.
I remember vehicles were a big, big issue. In fact,
prior to taking on the promotion, when I worked at
King's County as a medic, there were many times that
(28:27):
we were off service because we didn't have a functional vehicle.
I made friends with the Yemmy, which was right opposite
the MS station at the time, So whenever I was
just sitting around waiting for a vehicle, I used to
go in and watch autopsies. That's the way to learn
(28:51):
as your anatomy. It was fantastic wrong, but they were
able to start getting in vehicles. Uh. You know, as
a result of different grants. I would assume at the time,
uh so that uh so that we had vehicles to
(29:14):
respond to emergency calls and the call volume, like you said,
was picking up. So in order to address that, you
obviously needed staffing trained as well as uh as well
as functional ambulances and and equipment for the ambulances to
(29:38):
be in service. There was a lot of improvise of
improvision for for the equipment at the time. There a
lot of the equipment going back then was reusable. It
wasn't disposable. For example, uh bed valve mask. We used
(30:01):
to use that as needed and then we had to
clean it to the extent possible so it was available
for use should another patient be in need of it.
These days, the majority of the equipment that's out there
(30:25):
is disposable. You know, it's like a totally different world
of practicing medicine. Even the La Ringo scopes now where
you use that to in debate, all disposable. You know,
it's it's pretty amazing. But as you uh indicated with
(30:49):
Robert Becca, he was instrumental in moving the the the
service forward.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Very much back, very much so. And I want to
ask you about this too before I get to your
promotion to captain in ninete eighty nine. It was just
around the time that we got the Special Operations Division
two because you mentioned grants and that was another big
boost to EMS and late eighties early nineties.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
So yeah, in fact you mentioned Chief GOFOB and Chief
Current they were instrumental in SOD. So as far as captain,
that was that was offered to me in eighty eight,
And interestingly, one of the things that I had to
(31:40):
do was take an exam to keep my rank. At
the time, I believe there were maybe ten twelve of
us that were provisionally promoted to captain. They didn't have
a civil service list, and this was an in house HC. Exam,
(32:06):
and I remember that we were told that we needed
to score in the top ten twelve in order to
retain our rank. Otherwise we would be demoted to the
point that they reach our number on the list and
(32:26):
then we would be repromoted. So that wasn't an issue.
I scored well enough to maintain my captain rank.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
There going, I was able to launch you to the
next phase of your career. You mentioned HIV, and we
didn't talk about crack yet either in that era and
all the problems it brought. So around this time is
when both are really beginning to sprout up. And we
talked about call value being high before it was even
higher than and PPE becomes a concerned. Contagion becomes a
(32:58):
concern because nobody really knew. Do you think about it
back then to work through that, where you were on
the front lines of emergency medical care and walking into
the unknown which each of these calls, what was that
like and what were the protocols it exists back then
for those type of calls.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So there were cracked ends and they were dangerous in
the sense that you had shops and needles all over
the place. And usually what happened was that you would
get a lot of drug users in the same location,
(33:40):
you would get calls constantly for unconscious patients. As a
result of that, you would need to be extremely careful
because the shops and the needles laying around, people would
(34:00):
get neilstick. And when it comes to that, you know,
safety is always paramount. All it takes is one needlestick
in that life altering event. So it's something that when
here was being rendered you it was you needed to
(34:22):
pay attention to your surroundings and make sure that it
was safe to provide care under those circumstances. Otherwise you
would just need to drig the person, not drig him,
but wheel them out and then provide provide care in
a safer environment, whether it be outdoors or in the
(34:45):
ambulance somewhere outside the den.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And that was again, that was a big problem back then,
where it's a delicate balance to walk between your own
safety and especially as an officer back then, the safety
of your crew is being able to treat the patient
and with needles being around, and there's a lot of
people back then we don't know about that made the
ultimate sacrifice, if not in the moment when they were
stuck with these needles eventually getting ill complications of disease,
(35:13):
and I can't give you guys.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
It was challenging to say the least.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine, and I can't
give you guys enough credit for working through that, especially
with again the unknown factoring into so many of those
calls operationally and removing those calls from the equation for
the second. In terms of critical coordination, that was one
of your roles as captain. So we were in terms
of the nineties on the precipice of major incidents, the
(35:39):
major train derailment in nineteen ninety one. Of course, we
get the bombing of the Trade Center in ninety three,
and there was the Leary firebomb in nineteen ninety four.
We had another derailment in Williamsburg in ninety five. A
lot of the best responses to these type of disasters
come from pre planning. If you're prepared in advance, you're
able to better mitigate it. As a captain, what was
(35:59):
your critical coordination?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
So when I was promoted to captain, I was sent
back to Brooklyn to function as the captain in the
station thirty four that's in Pennsylvania that used to be
the Liberty Outpost station that was relocated a few blocks away,
and I was there for a short duration working as
(36:29):
the commanding officer and then got recruited to come into
operations as Just to backtrack a little bit, one of
the things that I did earlier on as a supervisor,
I was tapped to work the marathon and I set
(36:54):
up an administrative area there to deal with any type
of issues relating to EMS involvement with the marathon. And
I guess the higher echellonce like the way that was
set up, and when there was an opening in operations,
(37:18):
they asked me to submit my resume to come work
for them. I was a little reluctant and I said
thank you for asking, and never submitted my application. Then
I got a follow up phone call saying, you know
(37:39):
your resume must have been lust or something. Could you
please submit another. So at that point I knew it
was useless to fight, and I submitted it and went
on board as the CEO in Operations. Met a lot
(38:02):
of great people. Uh then Chief Digs Dave Diggs, who
was phenomenally He moved up the ranks from m v
O t EMT and he held every rank that there was,
and at that point I was working with Chief GOFOB,
(38:27):
Chief Gwalsig, Chief Kerr. They were instrumental in establishing the
s o D where you had these officers that were
specially trained to respond to those types of assignment and
to oversee the incident command to make sure that it
(38:49):
ran as smoothly and efficiently as possible. So that that's
really the key for the s o D cars because
you had EMS offices with not much of MCI mass
caa of the incident experience. So these folks that were
(39:15):
specialized in it would respond and coordinate that activity.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
And I think those r EPs, for those of you
watching on YouTube you'll see it. I think those role
of the NYPD Emergency Service rps you guys were using correct.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Very very similar.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, it kind of layout as the same. I missed
those old r EPs, and I was gonna say that
plays them perfectly to what I wanted to ask you
next about operations. You got Deputy chief in nineteen ninety two,
and that was your last post in New York City
EMS when it was still its own agency. You had
that until nineteen ninety six, and I was gonna ask you,
I don't know if you were there that day that
if you weren't, it's fine. We could at least talk
(39:54):
about the aftermath. But when the Trade Center got hit
the first time in ninety three, any involved with that operation, so.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, I was there that they working at the time.
Chief Cross was the chief of operations, and I helped
coordinate the EOC Emergency Operation Center in Maspith, that's where
(40:22):
MS headquarters was, in order to identify resources to go
down because as you know, that was a major patient
producer and that was my involvement. I did not go
to the scene of that assignment.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
But even in a situation like that, a role like
that is imperative and a lot of coordination is going on,
and you did have a lot of patients that day.
There were a thousand people intered. So just take it
through that layer about it because everybody knows the operations
at the Trade Center, but now everybody knows about this component,
so dive into it if you don't mind it.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
So also identifying hospital and how many patients that each
of the hospitals are able to treat, and different levels
of patient whether it be you know, a severe or
a minor. All that played into the coordination of those.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Resources, and again, thank you for doing that, because that
was important and it laid the groundwork for future MCIs
that would occur in the city. And it's been tweaked
over the years, of course, but again that groundwork was
laid back then, as far as the early nineties. And
that's unfortunately the perfect incident to have a playbook like
that to draw from. You know, want them to happen,
but in the city of eight million people, you'd be
(41:41):
a fool not to expect it. We'll dive into more
challenges that emerge later on, and we'll come back to
the trade tender a little bit later in the program.
Jerry Gombo's our guest here, and then like the New
Apen podcast, of course, he retired as an EMS Assistant
chief in the New York City Fire Department. His volume
sixty seven of the Best and Bravest Interviews of the
with the FD and wives, lu I should say. Kirk
mentions we bought the rip, knew what it was based
(42:03):
on the ESU model. Thank you for that. And now
Mike Grant's in the chat. I'm hoping to get Mike
on the show pretty soon. He sends his regards so
Mike grants happy. He's good to see it, Mike, and
let's try to figure out a day to get you
on the program as well. My friend. He was later
on in the Transit Police Department and of course went
over to the NYPD with the merger. And speaking of mergers,
we talked about it off air right before the late
Howard Safer left his post as FD and Y commissioner
(42:27):
to go be the NYPD commissioner. One of his last
actions I got the chance to talk with him on
the show about a couple of years ago, was merging
EMS with the FD and Y had been talked about
for a long time. The pros and cons had been weighed.
A lot of the people, particularly on the FD side,
felt that medical response times would be improved and also
the immortality rate would be improved if this merger took place,
(42:50):
and it was a time of mergers in the city.
The year before Giuliani succeeded in merging the police departments together,
he succeeded here as well. So I'll just ask you
straight up when it happened in nineteen ninety six, not
that it caught you by surprise. It we talked about
a while were you for it or were you against it?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So I was actually assigned to the transition team to
work out some of the kinks and policies and procedures
regarding the functional transfer of EMS from HC to the
fire department. At the time, Initially, I thought, based on
(43:35):
my information and involvement with the transition team, it would
be a positive move for EMS. At the time, as
I mentioned, we were part of HHC and in that
capacity we were there sort of like a stepchild. So
(43:58):
here you had the this huge fire department with so
many resources. I thought eventually it would work out to
EMS advantage, and in retrospect, I have to tell you
EMS has gained a tremendous amount of resources as a
(44:23):
result of being with the fire department. Going back to
the Juliani Giuliani administration, he was of the opinion, and
rightfully so, that the fire department was working their way
out of a job. They came up with the building codes.
Fires were on a decrease, whereas on the EMS side,
(44:48):
core volume was through the roof, medical calls were holding
and this way he believed that merging the two would
help both fire as well as CMS. You could train
fire to respond to medical emergencies, stabilize the patients, and
(45:11):
then EMS would be involved with the transport to the
appropriate hospital. So that was the global view of the merger. Obviously,
when you get down into the weeds, that's when the
complications and the devils and the details, as they say.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Right, and that makes sense Mark Pex's and the chat.
They'll be on the show next week. So Mark, that's hello,
good to see you.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
My friend or the island together.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yes, yes, Mark has got a story tenure in the
Ft and Iams division of course prior to that in
New York City EMS himself. And that's the thing that
we were talking about off air to where the debate
of the fire services role in the EMS, and it's
a too EMS heavy to where fire skills and fire
training is being neglected. That's a debate that will go
on to the end of time. It's not going to
(46:01):
be solved here on this podcast or any podcasts for
that matter. But I think we can both agree the
fire Department's presence either on the EMT level or even
the EMR level of some departments to it, and definitely
the medical level and a lot of medics at least
in the state of Connecticut. If you're a medic, you
could pretty much walk on to a fire department is needed.
And again, who's to say, we don't have a number
of how many lives and I covered this with commissioners
(46:23):
save for years ago have been saved because of this
merger and the fact that you're getting not only personnel
to the scene quicker, but you're getting a lot of
personnel to that particular emergency. You got four guys on
an engine, sometimes three depending on where you are, usually four,
two EMTs or two medics, one medic or one EMT
on the ambulance. That's six people that are working seamlessly
making a difference in one call.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
So, without a doubt, the resources are available. The concern
was the coordination of it, because if you have the
CFR or the engine or a ladder committed to a
medical emergency and some other fire emergency came up, then
(47:06):
that resource would not be available to respond to their
primary responsibility, you know, and then you'd have to send
a different company and relocate and that would cause a
delayed response to the fire emergency. So it really involved
(47:28):
or would involve coordination of resources. Keeping in mind that
when prior to the merger, there were so few MS facilities.
In fact, one of the things that MS has been
(47:52):
able to accomplish with the cooperation and a fire department,
it's opening up more facilities. They were instrumental in securing
more vehicles and equipment, which may not necessarily have happened
if the merger didn't take place. The big issue is staffing,
(48:19):
and the concern there, at least on the EMS side,
is the revolving door of personnel and having people trained,
people moving on to other types of jobs and responsibilities,
whether it be fire suppression or PD. And as always
(48:45):
it boils down to the budget and salaries and all that.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
And BD almost took it. I remember having that conversation
with Phil Pulaski, but I think it came down to
you said, devil the details of financial aspect of it,
because it's not uncommon in that the York City area.
You go out to Nasau County, EMS out there is
under the purview, as we cover before on the program
of the police, and you see certain places around the
country that have a similar setup. So even though I
kind of think I know your answer, I'll go back
(49:12):
to Emjy's question earlier in the chat producer Vick. If
we can highlight it, it's gonna be thirty years hard
to believe next year since that merger took place.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
How crazy is that?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
I No time really does fly in nineteen ninety six
to next year twenty twenty six. Do you feel this
was this question if we could have that highlighted, that
EMS should have stayed a separate agency or and again,
I think I know your answer. Is it better off
being under the purview of the fire department.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
So I don't think from a fiscal standpoint, the city
would entertain EMS as being its own agency here, whether
it be fire like happened or PD. They have the
infrastructure to absorb, so this way you don't have yet
(49:59):
another agency with all the administrative support that's needed there.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
I think that's the right answer. And again, and the
pros and cons can be debated to the end of
the time as well. Personally, I think it helped more resources.
You're out of the purview of one of the greatest
and not just from the standpoint of fire operations, but
resource wise, fire departments in the world certainly a lot
better than what you guys were dealing with in the
eighties and early nineties, even as you guys started to
make headway. Now, what's interesting about that first year and
(50:29):
he didn't have it long, but he helped get you
guys in the door. FD and Ywise. Dan Nigro was
Chief of BMS Operations from nineteen ninety six until nineteen
ninety seven. That first year just being under his purview.
What was he He's been on the show before as well.
What was he like to have as a boss?
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Very smart. It was a temporary move for him to
function in the capacity of overseeing EMS, and in retrospect,
it was more of a transition. I worked very closely
(51:10):
with Chief Nigro. He also sat on the transition committee
with me, and then I did function as his executive
officer when he worked as overseeing EMS.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Yeah, and that kind of was his springboard to greater things.
He became Chief of Department later on for a little
while after the casualties of nine to eleven. He was
chief of Operations before that fateful day, which we'll talk
about a little bit, and then of course became the
fire Commissioner. So I mean that was a little forgotten
moment in his career, not because it was forgettable, but
because it wasn't as long he was only there for
(51:50):
that year, but I did want to ask about that.
So you become an assistant chief in nineteen ninety eight
at the operations level in EMS, and this is where
it gets interesting for me. With the tech boom comes
the use of analytics. Analytics had been around, but it
had never been used like this before. Now you could
see through those analytics how our call volume is, what
type of cause we're getting the most, where we can improve,
(52:13):
and where we're doing really really well. So as far
as utilizing that, I'm sure you had a team helping you.
What were the common trends you were seeing and what
were the things around nineteen ninety eight nineteen ninety nine
that with those trends available to you through those analytics,
you were looking to address.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
So once we were able to identify call patterns and
call types and identify which areas of the city was
more busy than others, we were able to reassign resources
to those locations to deal with the increase of call value.
(52:55):
And given the fact that this was now post we
were opening up more EMS facilities in areas that we
needed facilities so that the ambulances didn't need to travel
far to get to their primary response areas, whereas pre
(53:20):
merger there were so few stations that there was a
lot of downtime travel time for units traveling to their
response areas. This way, should the crews need to restock
or wash up or do something after a call, the station,
(53:44):
the facility was much closer to them, which kept them
in service for a longer amount of time.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
And that's a hard bargain to drive, especially like Manhattan,
I mean factor in a burrow like that. In terms
of response times, again, not much just changed. I don't
know how they do it. You know, there's a point
in time where they were telling me the response times
for three to four minutes, which is a miracle considering
not just the cars and sometimes the stubbornness of other
drivers who won't get out of your way, but pedestrians
who were just as bad.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Without a doubt, it is absolutely a challenge driving through
the streets in Manhattan trying to get to an emergency.
But what I was suggesting earlier, with additional resources, if
you have more ambulances station that key locations, it decreases
(54:41):
response times. But of course, in addition to facilities, you
need staffing for that as well.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Right, you need the stations, and sometimes your station is
the street. If you're on a parked on a corner,
it's kind of easier. And this is not just in
New York City. It's anywhere you see this a lot.
I mean where I'm at Connecticut. The primary in Services
AMR SO AMR. They're not really parked at their quarters
in New Haven, Connecticut often, but they will be parked
(55:08):
on a post in front of a movie theater, by
a store. Because the call comes in, they're able to
jump on it quicker. And again, seconds count, not just
hitt it. Seconds count.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
To your point, Yes, MS ambulances don't respond out of
this station to call assignments. There's station that cross street
locations where these were predesignated so that they can respond
quickly to assignments in their immediate area.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, and that's a good model that's still being utilized today.
I did want to ask about this. We talked about
this off air as well, and I never really dive
into this before when I had Steve and Chief Goal
far Bond. Shame on me for not. And that is
what I call the fire standby. Of course at these
scenes is not exactly required to go in. It's a
separate division. It's not like some departments where the ambulance
(56:05):
is under the purview of the fire department, So firefighters
are rioting. It a little bit of a different story
in New York City, but nevertheless, you're needed there, especially
if there's multiple alarms. God forbid, a member of the
fire department goes down, you got to help them, or
anybody for that matter, you got to help them. So
what was the protocol for just fire standby and what
are the fires to stick out? Where EMS played a
heavy role.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
So post merger, that's something that was developed. An incident
command at the fire location. The ranking EMS officer would
check in at the command post and deal with medical
emergencies as they arose. Depending on the size of the
(56:49):
fire and the resources that were being utilized. Second alarm,
third alarm, fourth lawn or any special circumstances would determine
the amount of ms RE resources assigned to that assignment.
But for the most part, the EMS officer ranking officer
(57:10):
would be right next to the fire incident commander, communicating
as needed if resources were needed to handle any type
of assignment, and of course if it's a patient producing
type of incident, we would request additional resources to respond.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
In one that sticks out as pre mergers right before
August of nineteen ninety five, and this I got to
do a show on because it's going to be thirty
years next month. The hotel fire in Brooklyn back then,
before the fd ANDY stopped their alarms at five, it
went to eighteen alarms. Believe it or not. You know,
there's a patient producing incident right there. And again, incidents
like that kind of serve as a template because I
(57:57):
mean again, in a city of eight million people, especially
the more densely populated areas downtown Brooklyn, the Bronx, by
Yankee Stadium, you know city Field like our Queens, but
you know by city Field, you know, anything could happen.
You gotta be prepared. The subways. Yeah absolutely, Yeah, So
that was definitely something. Again, I gotta get somebody on
(58:18):
to talk about that, because staging is everything, especially if
you're needed, the best available, the best ability is availability.
So why two K I wanted to ask briefly about
this as well. From the EMS standpoint, of course, it's
silly now, but back then, it's been twenty five years
since then, nobody knew what was gonna happen, So I
know the Fire Department planning aspect of it. I know
(58:38):
the PD aspect of it in terms of their planning ems.
Since nobody knew anything, tell me about planning for the unknown.
As nineteen ninety nine turned into two thousand.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
So as far as Y two K was concerned, there
are certain times in the year that we bolster the
available resources. New Year's Eve as a whole, we have
a huge contingency h added on municipal as well as
(59:09):
voluntary MS resources as well as MS officers. As he indicated,
no one knew exactly what was going to happen. Everybody
was predicting the worst. Planes were gonna fall out of
the air, and trains were going to stop, and possibly
(59:32):
cars and even ambulances may stop. But so to the
extent that you can be proactive and prepare and have
resources available. But as New Years started to roll in
in other parts of the world where it was it
(59:53):
was sooner than here in New York, we pretty much
sware that the world was continuing and not ending at
that point.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
No, and that was a relief, of course, because again
it's funny to think I didn't lift through it, but
hearing the perspectives of those who did the planning that
went into it and ultimately what it done. That was.
So you get through two thousand, of course, and things
are coming along post merger, and five years after the mergers,
when we get, of course, the attacks of September eleventh,
two thousand and one. Two members of the EMS Division
(01:00:26):
amongst the three hundred and forty three firefighters would die
that day getting down there that day. I'll let you
take it from here again. No amount of planning for
a mash casualty incident could have prepared you for that.
So just take me through step by step how your
day began and what you did after you learned that
flight eleven and hit the North Town.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
So I was in headquarters that morning. I was the
early person on and Russ Turnover, who was working in
fire operations at that time, came into my office and
(01:01:10):
said that peat Gancy just saw a plane through his
window hit the trade center and they are all responding
to the center. We didn't have a lot of information
as to the size of the pan plane, number of injuries.
(01:01:33):
So Chief Guancy peak Gancy and his entourage, Bill Fihan,
myself and some other folks left fire headquarters, went over
the Brooklyn Bridge. Russ was with me at the time,
(01:01:59):
and at that time PD already closed down the bridge
other than two emergency vehicles. What they were looking to
do to the extent possible is move people off of Manhattan,
not into Manhattan. And we drove down to the Center
(01:02:23):
as far as we can get. I think we were
stopped several blocks because of just vehicles and pedestrian traffic,
and we just left our cost secure at the location
and we hoofed it at that point down to the
(01:02:48):
North Tower. And at the time we were told that
the command post was set up in the nowrth tower.
We saw a massive amount of people running away from
the towers. We saw uh some E M S pods
(01:03:14):
set up treating people uh near near the tower that
either escaped the tower or injured themselves running. We we
I remember seeing a few officers. We spoke to them,
and then we made our way into the North Tower.
(01:03:36):
As soon as we made that turn, that's when the
whole world changed as far as h as far as
the damage to the center and uh, it's it's interesting,
and I mentioned this before that the mind plays different
(01:03:59):
uh tricks on you. And when I used to be
involved with training, we used to practice these trauma situations
where you had patients or people functioning as patients moullaged
(01:04:21):
with different types of injuries so that people would train
and be able to deal with that type of situation.
When we made the corner, there were just body parts
(01:04:43):
all over all over the sidewalk, and I said to myself, Wow,
this would be such an interesting, good training scene the
way it's set up with with the different types of
injuries and burning. And we made our way past that
(01:05:11):
hearing constant thuds, not knowing exactly what that was. And
we learned afterwards to the North tower where you had
Chief Fifer and Chief Hayden set up. We were then
trying to communicate with our communications. The radios were not
(01:05:36):
really functioning from the North tower. We were able to
get a word in edgeways to make sure that our
units are staging at their predesignated location. And for the
most part where we were there were no injuries. People
(01:06:02):
were self evacuating, which was a good thing. What you
want to accomplish anybody that's able to move on their own,
let them move away as far from the tower as possible,
and then because the communication was so poor, a decision
(01:06:23):
was made that we're going to relocate the command posts
to across the street, across West Street. We were then
facing the towers as opposed to being in the North tower.
So when we arrived over there, I remember having a
(01:06:44):
conversation with Bill Fihan pertaining to, you know, how we're
setting up our triage and treatment areas. And then no
sooner did we get across across the street through the
(01:07:13):
just looking in the other direction, the second plane came
and hit the South tower. Now I did not see
the plane hit the tower, but I continue we felt
(01:07:33):
the heat from the explosion at the command post, and
at that point when the second plane hit, it was
obvious that it was no longer an accident, that we
were we were under attack. Now. Part of our training,
(01:07:59):
going back pre nine to eleven, the concerns were with biological, chemical,
nuclear type of situations. However, one of the things that
you're trained is that when it comes to bio and chemical,
(01:08:24):
it's a difficult it's difficult to introduce that into the atmosphere,
especially when you have that explosion. The chemicals are burnt
if that was a concern. So then at that point
(01:08:46):
we were in defensive mode, knowing that something really bad
is upon us and going on. No sooner than that.
The sky started getting dark and the ground started shaking,
(01:09:06):
and we were by the driveway of two World Financial Center,
which was directly across from the North Tower, and russ
yanked me and pulled me and we went into the garage.
(01:09:31):
Some people went down, other people went up, and before
we knew it, we were trapped in this garage. All
the rubble filled from the tower filled this huge driveway
(01:09:52):
and at the point we didn't know whether the top
part of the tower fell. We had no idea what
was going on. What we did know is that we
couldn't breathe, that there was this huge soot cloud in
the garage where we were. The first thing I wanted
(01:10:17):
to make sure was that there was no one that
was buried. That we were able to see under this rubble.
I had this flashlight with me. There were a bunch
of firefighters with us, and we were able to see
(01:10:39):
anybody trapped. Now the situation was how are we getting
out of there. We found this office down in the
garage where they had water available the five gallon jugs
(01:11:02):
we were able to rinse out of our mouths because
every time we took a breath it just filled up
with soot. And eventually we were able to find a
back way out of the financial center, which actually led
(01:11:25):
us to the marina on the other side. And it
was amazing because you got out of there and the
air was fresh because the building shielded any of the
debris from going in on that side. It was a
beautiful day. You had all these boats parked through the marina,
(01:11:48):
and we said we need to make our way back around,
so we had to attempt to walk around the block
to get back to the front of the tower which
we were standing by and resume our position at the
(01:12:10):
command post. We make the turn onto what was it,
I guess it was VS and there was a hotel
Millennium there. The MERV was poked over there, and there
was a temporary treatment area where they were treating patients,
(01:12:35):
and we were walking towards the front of the block
and all of a sudden, this huge cloud of dust
starts moving down the block towards us, and it was
(01:12:57):
rather evident that that's not something that you wanted to breathe.
You didn't need to for someone to tell you that
that was not good. And we went into this into
the hotel lobby for shelter, and we met up with
(01:13:17):
a bunch of other EMS chiefs that were on the
scene over there. We strategized and we made a decision
that it's not safe and we could not. Keep in mind,
we cannot communicate with anybody. Radios weren't working, there were
(01:13:40):
no cell sites, no cell phones. We were totally on
our own just trying to figure out what was going on.
So what was evident was that we couldn't function in
that environment and do what we needed to do as
patient care providers. So we tried to identify locations on
(01:14:07):
the exterior where we would be able to set up
safely and coordinate MS resources from there. One thought was
moving to the west to Chelsea Pier and the other
thought was moving back east where the Staten Island Ferry docks.
(01:14:37):
So we felt that those were far enough locations that
we would be able to function and deal with resources.
And another thing that came to mind with Chelsea Peer
is that should they need to set up an additional
(01:14:58):
area for Morgue, you have the ice skating ring there
that you could be utilizing to assist with that. Keeping
in mind, as we spoke with the ninety three incident,
you had a thousand patients, so really that's what we
(01:15:18):
were anticipating. So we split up the chiefs to those
two locations and myself, Chief Golfob and Russ we're going
to hoof it to one Police Plaza. They have a
(01:15:41):
command center set up on the eighth floor, and we
figured we would go over there and coordinate activities because
when there were major events going on or some type
of major catastrophe, that's where function with other city agencies
(01:16:03):
to coordinate activities, and we were going to need to
bring in, of course, additional resources to deal with these
thousand or so patients that we thought were going to
be result the result of whatever that smoke and dust
(01:16:26):
cloud was. So we started walking and there was this
police officer on one of these golf carts that saw
us walking that gave us a lift to one Police
(01:16:47):
Plaza and there was Ross was there, Chief Golfer, myself
and there were a few other folks as well. When
we are there, the building one Police Plaza was surrounded
by police officers with heavy weapons just to make sure
(01:17:14):
that that was a safe location. We made our way
up to the eighth floor. They were kind enough to
help us out with shirts and stuff. Because we were
all covered in soot. We looked like walking zombies, ghosts.
(01:17:35):
The first thing that I directed everybody that was with
us to call a family member, just to let them
know that you're okay, we're over here. We're going to
be here for a while, but at least they know
your status. So they all did that. At that point,
(01:17:59):
we were getting information from the police officers and the
other emergency personnel that were manning this command post at
OEM about what actually transpired. We had no idea. We
didn't know who made it, who didn't make it, or
(01:18:22):
what was going on in the outside world. Then when
I called Operations to let them know that we are
where we were, I spoke to yeah, Joel Freeman, chief Freeman,
(01:18:44):
you know, and so Joel, I just want to let
you know I'm here and who is with me and
what we were contemplating doing. And he said, I can't
be speaking to you. They have you dead already.
Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
They took attendance over the era and if you didn't respond,
they just marked you deceased, you know, so I said, well,
update your records so that you're not speaking to a ghost.
And at that point Chief Golfob was instrumental in reaching
(01:19:22):
out to resources outside the city. We were contemplating bringing
in like emergency hospitals. And while this planning was going on,
and it took a considerable amount of time to contact
these resources, and all we were getting information from from
(01:19:46):
communications and the site that there was not going to
be a need for those resources at least at this point.
So we we were able to eventually get officers to
(01:20:06):
come over to our location, and then we once again
left and went to the command post that was now
set up over at the center and checked in over there.
Chief McCracken was in charge, chief of VMS and as
(01:20:32):
they say, the rest of his history.
Speaker 1 (01:20:35):
Thank you for going into that, because again I wanted
to highlight the EMS portion of response that day. And
among three hundred and forty three eurok City firefighters to
perish that day with the towers to collapse, two of
them were from the EMS division, Carlos Lili Ricardo Quinn.
Now you didn't know them deeply in terms of not
a personal level, but they were under your bureau and
(01:20:56):
to have those two losses and again and you knew
many more people continuing on in the aftermath of that.
Especially what was eerie is you mentioned you were at
metro Tech, and so many of the guys that responded
for MetroTech didn't come back. Chief Gancy did not come
back that day. Chief Barbara did not come back that day.
Commissioner Fien, who was the first deputy commissioner, did not
(01:21:17):
come back that day. And I believe there was one
more individual who responded from headquarters that also did not survive,
but it may have been Chief Downey. I'm not sure.
It's a lot of people who if you didn't know
them professionally, you definitely knew them personally. Your two thousand
and one, your two thousand and two is now the
focus shifts to the recovery efforts. There's still emergency costs
to tend to. Then there's the anthrax scare. How difficult
(01:21:40):
was that to manage? And how instrumental was your team
that you had built well by that point in helping
you manage it. From the moment this happened until that
last beam was removed in May of two thousand.
Speaker 2 (01:21:49):
And two, So it definitely took its toll physically and emotionally.
For those who didn't perish, there was a lot of
survivor guilt. There were a lot of funerals that people
are going to. From a operational perspective, the towers were
(01:22:23):
set up as a facility, if you will, meaning that
resources were instead of being pulled from different locations of
the city. At that point, that was going to function
as a station and resources would be assigned to that.
And then with each operational period as things changed, because
(01:22:49):
it was changing daily down there, at least for the
first few weeks, if not months, perimeters were set up,
access points, you had a temporary morgue set up there
by OCME, and then we functioned in a dual capacity. Obviously,
(01:23:14):
should anybody be injured working the pile, we would need
MS resources to deal with that injury. But in addition
to that, when there was a removal of a decease
to the temporary morgue, it was the MS that was
(01:23:35):
involved with that as well. So it was rather dynamic
in the sense that depending on the activity determined the
amount of resources that were assigned down there. I can't
tell you that after after the eleventh. I was down
(01:24:00):
there for at least a week or two dealing with
the stmath and didn't return back to the office Metritech
until things stabilized to the point that they could down there.
Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
And again, I know it was an easy time, and
I know it's not an easy thing to discuss, so
I do appreciate it and shout out to everybody who
was with you that day. Ross Terra Nova's in the chat.
He says he was proud to serve with you, So
he's washing tonight any senses regards, you know, good to
see in the chat, my friend, thank you for tuning
in tonight. I didn't want to ask you about this too,
because this was highlighted given the gravity of the situation,
(01:24:46):
and I'm sure with something that existed before, and I'm
sure with something that existed after. But you know, the
F and Y EMS Division is not the only method
of EMS care in New York City. There's other ambulance
cores that exist, and they're just as essential providing carecraft
the five boroughs in terms of coordination with them and
making sure that not even just an MCI, but just
(01:25:06):
managing day to day emergencies. He kept a good report
with them. What was that like?
Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
So, as you mentioned, and I was going to address
this as well, you mentioned two EMS providers FDNY personnel
that that didn't make it through that day. There were
other EMS providers as well that were killed by the
(01:25:34):
falling of the towers. So in New York City there's
multi leveled MS responses. There are there are voluntary hospitals
that provide regular nine to one one service through the
New York City nine one one system on a regular basis.
(01:25:58):
There's also volunteers that provide mutual aid and as long
as they're able to as long as they're able to
cover their primary response, if they have additional resources they
can they can make themselves available to participate as well.
(01:26:20):
And then you have outside mutual aid as well that
is available to come in as needed. So on a
regular basis, when you have these major events, if it's planned,
(01:26:41):
they all those resources that want to participate are invited,
so this way it's a coordinated effort. One of the
complications with the World Trade Center incident was self dispatch
(01:27:01):
of MS resources without anybody knowing that they were there,
so there was no accountability, if you will, or oversight
as to their activities, So that's something that played into
(01:27:22):
getting a handle on the site and the security and
securement of that for the next few days and weeks.
We didn't we didn't negate anybody that wanted to participate,
but it had to be a coordinated effort because when
(01:27:43):
it comes to those types of events, the fire Department
and the ms have to coordinate that and by law
through REMSCO, that's the way it's supposed to work. Once again,
that can only be coordinated when they follow the policies
(01:28:06):
and procedures as to making themselves available, letting us know,
reporting into a staging area where it's safe for them
to wait until resources are needed. And that was part
of the challenge.
Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
And understandably because listen, am I knocking them not at all?
Their heart was in the right place. They were trying
to get down there and.
Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Help that absolutely, But there was a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:28:32):
Of casualties that immediately weren't known on the FT and
Y side I'm referring to because as far as the
F and Y leadership was concerned, those individuals had a
day off, so they weren't even slated to be working
that day, but they self dispatch to come in and
help some firefighters. There's one story. I forget the fireman's name.
Speaker 2 (01:28:49):
I was just gonna say, that's not limited to ems.
You had fire police, you name it authority, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:28:59):
Right, you know. And again the magnitude of the event
was such and needed all the help you can get.
But there was one fireman went to another house nearby
the trade center, borrowed some gear, left a note at
the firehouse. I forget who he was. Somebody in that
Jack could probably put it in there. And unfortunately he
did not survive that day, you know. And again there
are stories like that on the police side as well,
of certain members of the Port Authority Police Department dispatching
(01:29:22):
down there, and I remember he survived that day. He's
been on the show a couple of times. Kevin Barry,
who was a member of the NYPD bomb Squad for
many years, he told me straight up, He's like, when
we heard it over the radio, we didn't wait to
be called. We hopped in a van from where we
were at the sixth Precinct, which is where their headquarters are,
went down to the scene. But then again, and we
see this now with the FEMA NIMS modules that talk
(01:29:43):
about incident structure, unity of command, chain of command. These
principles have existed forever, they've just become more formalized since
that day.
Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
Yes, and that's important. Gotha bit. There's another incident.
Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
Of course, as you're gonna say, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
No, I was gonna say. But given the fact that
so much time has elapsed since then, a lot of
the people involved has since retired and stuff like that,
and one can only hope that people learn from that.
Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
I think they have. It's still being taught and both
for the same as you know, the same lessons are
are still being driven home so that any mistakes that
may have been made during that time aren't repeated. So,
you know, getting back to the day and day operations.
Until you ended up retiring in twenty fifteen, a lot
to manage, a lot of personnel to keep track of,
but things are still moving along, and there's not only
(01:30:47):
the safety aspect for personnel, there's also the management of
records because again, pre hospital care is kind of like
handing the baton off. You know, the runnering hands the
baton off to his partner or her partner and the
race continues. Same thing with pre hospital carry. You hand
it off at the nurses and the doctors at the
various hospitals across the city. So it may seem tedious
to some, but it's necessary as far as records management
(01:31:08):
went on your side of it and overseeing that, how
did you coordinate that amongst your members and what was
the involvement if any, were coordinating that with the nearby hospitals.
Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
So that actually evolved over the years. At one point
the records were completed but pen on paper ambulance call reported,
and then that he evolved to electronic tablets. Everybody had
(01:31:39):
tablets and when patients were transported to hospitals, that information
was shared electronically with whatever emergency rooms was the patient
was transported too. So technology that has changed over the
(01:32:04):
years to make sure that it's hip a compliant, you know,
because that's a biggie with paper, it could always you know,
get misplaced. As long as it's electronic, the information is encrypted,
so this way it's secure, only shared with the hospital
(01:32:30):
that the patient was transported to, and of course the
building service that's done internally as well.
Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
And again a big aspect. I often go back to
the line from the Faith No More song, We care
a lot. It's a dirty job. But someone's got to
do it. It's not easy because I mean, even doing
it for a personnel of ten and twenty is a lot.
Doing it for a personnel of thousands in a city
of eight million. You're not doing it by yourself. You
do have a team, but it is a lot, and
(01:32:59):
it's necessary.
Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
It's absolutely a coordinated effort. It's not a one person show.
Speaker 1 (01:33:05):
No, not at all, not at all, And I guess
that plays into moving ahead to twenty fifteen. It's not
a one person show, as you said, And it is
the greatest show on earth, though, and there's a lot
of people, a lot of stage hands that make it such.
Thirty six years under the banner of New York City government,
between health and hospitals and then later on the New
York City Fire Department, you retired that year. You worked
(01:33:26):
in the private sector for a while, but at least
that end of your journey in the public sector. And
as I often asked my PD and FT friends who've
come on this program, was there a specific moment that
made you say, Because the old timers always say you're
gonna know when to go, was there a specific moment
that may just say it's time to go? Or was
it a series of things that may just say, Okay,
you know what I think I should probably put in
(01:33:47):
my papers.
Speaker 2 (01:33:48):
So I believe it was a series of things. And
in addition to that, at least from a personal perspective,
pension stops at thirty years, so I put in thirty
five years, and it was of course effective. Or I
(01:34:11):
was losing money coming to work. As as ridiculous as
that sounds.
Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
I know that was the thing. Well I didn't, I
didn't do that was the thing? Is that in New
York City exclusive thing? Or is that anywhere that has
a pension system?
Speaker 2 (01:34:26):
Well? No, that's that has h that's a EMS Tier
four thing.
Speaker 1 (01:34:34):
Ah, gotcha? Gotcha? Well, removing the financial aspect of it
for a moment, there is emotional involvement. It's not easy
to walk away, even if you know it's time. You've
made so many friends, there's a lot of wonderful memories,
and you came along way in your career. You know,
what were your thoughts in terms of that aspect of it,
and how difficult was it give at the bonds you
(01:34:56):
made and what are you most grateful for in terms
of the bonds you need so.
Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
One of my most grateful for I had the opportunity
to be the assistant chief, and as the assistant chief
of MS, you serve at the pleasure, if you will.
And I had the honor of serving with some unbelievable
(01:35:24):
chiefs of MS, going back to pre Merger, uh Neil Cross,
Chief Cross Post Merger, Andy McCracken, John Perusia, Abda Mode,
all very dedicated, very intelligent people, and it was an
(01:35:49):
honor serving under all of them.
Speaker 1 (01:35:52):
I'm trying to get John Perusia on the show, so
I'm glad you mentioned them. Hopefully I can get I
got to mention, I spoke. I spoke to Jay you know,
and Joe Freedman too. People were mentioning to him in
the chat. So it seems like he's difficult to track
down in retirement, but I'll make an effort of it.
We've tracked down yeah, well listen, there's been people who've
been off the radar. We've managed to find him on
this show. So that'll be my next hunt, if you will.
(01:36:14):
And it was Peter Byfield. Chris Spten mentions in the
chat who was the FDNY firefighter who was off duty
on nine to eleven responded personally left a note for
his family at the locker room tent house which was
right by the trade center. Borrowed some year and went in.
Didn't he didn't come back that y Thank you Chris,
thank you. Christopher should bring him. So it is now
time and the hour and a half is flown by.
(01:36:35):
This has been a fun conversation with you, and I
really appreciate it for the rapid fire. Five hit run
questions for me, five hit and run answers from you. You
could say pass if you want their fun questions. They're
not hard ones. First one is after a long day
of responding to EMS cause or maybe you're in the ambulance,
you know, waiting for the next call to come in,
what was your favorite place to stop by any of
the five boroughs to get a by.
Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
T My favorite place actual is here in Queen's Green Oalve.
It's a pizza shop. Great pizza.
Speaker 1 (01:37:05):
Okay, hey, let's not have to check it out next
time in the city.
Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
Second.
Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
TV doesn't get it right for the most part, but
there are certain shows that are more realistic than others.
Favorite EMS related TV show or movie that was closest
to what you actually did so.
Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
If you ask anyone from going back to my years,
how could they not say emergency?
Speaker 1 (01:37:32):
I knew you were gonna say that, Magency.
Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
However, however, you know, uh, there are some really good
medical shows that I do tune into. The pit uh
is is a fantastic medical show. I don't know if
you heard of it, but if you have HBO something
(01:37:58):
to tune.
Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
In, definitely will. Before we continue with the Rabbit fire,
I mentioned to you off are heb be tuned in tonight?
Fritz is watching? Dwayne Rose, says my first supervisor, then
Lieutenant Goambo at Station forty five in nineteen eighty eight,
with my thirty five year city service, you were one
of the best in later years. Thank you for always
getting my friends the stations they wanted to go to.
You came through every time. Thank you, Chief. My question
(01:38:20):
for the chief did you work the morning that police
officer Eddie Byrne was assassinated the one O three precinct.
It's a morning I'll never forget. I walked into forty
five that early morning and saw about a dozen EMTs
and medics crying.
Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
I wasn't working that morn wasn't working.
Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
Yeah, that is something he asked me to ask you,
but he remembers you fondly and he says you really
helped him early on, so I knew he'd be watching
night shoutout to quit.
Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Quod hair good hearing from him. I hope will as well.
Speaker 1 (01:38:47):
And hopefully come on the show pretty soon, Fritzy. It'll
be good to talk to you about THEMSA. Of course
you're running the NYPD and OEM. Third question, the rapid fire,
funniest or most unforgettable moment in your career?
Speaker 2 (01:39:00):
It was that New Year's Eve? Baby? How could how
could you? Yeah, you can't supersede that one. That was
that was ingrained in my memory.
Speaker 1 (01:39:12):
And that kind of ties into the fourth question. That's
pretty uplifting. But besides that one, because that's a great experience,
what was another uplift, really uplifting experience you had in
your career?
Speaker 2 (01:39:21):
So, actually a few. On a personal note, I was
promoted from deputy chief when Chief McNally, who's a two
star chief, retired, I actually jumped the rank and was
(01:39:42):
promoted to division chief at that time, went from deputy
chief to division chief, which is not a routine type
of promotion. I was very grateful for that, and that
is something that stays in my mind. But in the
to that from a provider perspective, had some really really
(01:40:07):
great saves. I had this one trauma job where this
individual was cutting hedges with a saw and didn't realize
it was a fence behind the tree or the bush
that he was trying to cut, and when the saw
(01:40:32):
hit the fence, it jumped back and nicked his karated.
Oh and we were able to actually save this individual
where not only did we save him, he was able
to eventually walk out of the hospital as the result
(01:40:54):
of our medical care intervention.
Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Amazing. I love it. Thank you for sharing that. And
the last question I mentioned, I'm a new EMT and
the purpose I got reason and then I got my
EMT primarily is to go into the fire department. So regardless,
new EMTs like myself, new paramedics out there, shout out
to my friend list alitis or new ems leaders who
like you, moved up in the ranks. What advice would
you give?
Speaker 2 (01:41:20):
My advice would be to be the best EMT or
paramedic you can be and always look out for your partner.
Simple to the point.
Speaker 1 (01:41:33):
I like it. Very good advice. And I thank you
for it. This has been great. Before we say goodbye
to the audience, first and foremost again, thank you for
coming on. Any shout outs to anyone or anything you'd
like to give.
Speaker 2 (01:41:45):
Shout outs well, of course to my family, my lovely
wife and children and grandchildren. But in addition to that,
keeping in the mode of this conversation and interview to
all first responders. You know, as much as we love
(01:42:09):
to do this, forever, you have to realize is a
time where you need to piss the baton and allow
someone else to take it and run with it. Listen,
and of course my buddy Ross ye and he's still there.
I don't know if he's there.
Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
I believe you. Shout out to you, mister Terra Nova.
Maybe you'd like to come on the show sometime. And yes,
it's important, like I always say on this program, if one,
regardless of if you were a badge and gun or
you wore bunker pants and a helmet, if you can
make that walk to the pension section at the end
of your career, that's a blessing. There's many people, even
though it's a difficult career to leave, that never got
to make that walk. Because they died doing this job.
(01:42:51):
So anybody that can, Hey, that is a blessing.
Speaker 2 (01:42:53):
We're all thankful and it is a blessing.
Speaker 1 (01:42:55):
Yes, yes it is. Yes, it is in line with that.
We hope he's all. John Latanzio in the chat just
made mention of it. He's a retired detective out of
the NYPD Emergency Service Unit. Police officer apparently has been
shot in Manhattan. I don't know the condition of the officer,
but we will keep that officer in our thoughts tonight
and hope everything turns out well with that police officer
(01:43:16):
who's been shot and wounded in the line of duty.
In the meantime, coming up next to the Mike the
new AVN podcast more FD and Y shows, and I'm
excited about them. A couple of really good guests on tap.
Are a few really good guests on tap. First is
Don Mormino, who started his career as in New York
City police officer lateral to the FD and Y in
nineteen eighty seven and nineteen ninety four, made his way
to the Fire Marshall's office, where he finished up his
(01:43:37):
career in two thousand and three. After that, former FD
and Y Chief of Department. John Sudnik will be on
TAP and that'll be August eleventh. But before we get
to that August eighth Friday, he's in the chat. He'll
finally be on. Mark Peck is coming on the program,
and I look forward to talking with Mark about his
journey through New York City. EMS and of course FD
(01:43:58):
and Y EMS wants to merger to play Swick.
Speaker 2 (01:44:01):
A quick mock Peck story.
Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
Please we got time, go right in?
Speaker 2 (01:44:05):
Okay, quick mock Peck story. Great medic. Everybody could learn
a lot from him. He used to take care of
the paramedic room in Coney Island. In Coney Island Hospital.
He had this big garbage can in the center of
the room with a sign over. It's saying that your
medics could start in ivy fourteen gage on a ninety
(01:44:29):
year old person, but you can't get the garbage in
the can. That's my Mock's tech story. And they know
he knows what I'm talking.
Speaker 1 (01:44:40):
About, and I'll have to ask him to elaborate on
that when he comes on, not this Friday, but the
one to follow. Thank you for sharing that. I look
forward to talking with him about that again. Thought some
prayers to that police officer New York City. We hope
he or she is going to be okay again. I
just informed that situation in the chat in the meantime
on behalf of retired fd YE me as assistant Chief
(01:45:01):
Jerry Gombo and producer Victor and all of you watching tonight, Michael,
and we'll see it next time. But before we get
to the outro. For those of you listening on the
audio side for tonight's outro song from their nineteen eighty
six album The Way It Is, it's Bruce Hornsby and
the Range with the uponiously titled The Way It Is.
As I said, I'm beat the Chief Gombo, Producer Victor
on Michael, we we'll see you. Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:45:22):
Everybody stand in line, monk in time waiting call off
(01:46:15):
their din s.
Speaker 1 (01:46:17):
They can't buy a job.
Speaker 2 (01:46:20):
Then step sent.
Speaker 4 (01:46:21):
Harry Spies, he catches the ball lady's eyes just what
funny says, get a job.
Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
That's just the way it is.
Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
Some things will never change, That's just the.
Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
Way it is. But don't you believe that.
Speaker 4 (01:46:54):
Said a hand in the boy? You can't go where
the others cool? Don't look like they.
Speaker 2 (01:47:03):
Said?
Speaker 4 (01:47:03):
Hell man, how can you stand.
Speaker 2 (01:47:05):
To think that way.
Speaker 4 (01:47:07):
Did you really think about it before you made the bush?
Speaker 2 (01:47:14):
That's just the way it is.
Speaker 3 (01:47:18):
Somethings another change, That's just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (01:47:27):
How don't you believe it? Rather pressed alone sixty four
(01:48:31):
to give those who I ain't got a little more.
Speaker 2 (01:48:35):
But it'll only goes so far.
Speaker 3 (01:48:38):
There's a line of change.
Speaker 4 (01:48:39):
In other's mind, went on the steed of the hiring time.
There's a line on the color mine.
Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
That's just the way it is.
Speaker 4 (01:48:54):
Somethings will never change, that's just the way. It's just
the way