Episode 358: The Best of The Bravest: Chief of Department John Sudnik (Volume 69)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to the bike Did You Even? Podcast hosted
by media personality and consultant Mike Glow. You're listening to

(01:02):
the best of the Bravest Interviews with the FD and
wy's Elite times. Our streak of FD shows continues. Welcome
back to the Mike de Newhaven Podcast, Episode three hundred
and fifty eight, another edition of the Best the Bravest
Interviews with the FD and WYS Elite, Volume sixty nine.

(01:23):
If you haven't checked out the previous episode of volume
sixty eight with Don Mormino, who wore two hats as
I covered in New York City public safety. He began
his career originally as the New York City Police officer
from nineteen eighty one until nineteen eighty seven and he
was about to get his detective shield when he lateraled
on over to the FD and why did seven years
in the line working in Brooklyn primarily a one seventy

(01:43):
five truck and three three two engine and in nineteen
ninety four went over to the Marshalls where he finished
out his career in two thousand and three, Fun chat
with him. There'll be a fun chat tonight with our
guest who I worked to get and I'm happy to
say that I finally landed tonight. So looking forward to
documenting his career all it all you tuning in watching
via Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube, look forward to a great show.

(02:03):
As always the super chats there. If you got any questions,
you know the drill by now fire away and the
appropriate time we will highlight them so we'll get into
a conversation with our next guest after this. Word, of course,
is always from the Ryan Investigative Group. The Mikey new
Haven Podcast is proudly sponsored and supported by the Ryan
Investigative Group. If you need an elite PI, look no

(02:24):
further than the elite Ryan Investigative Group, which is run
by retired NYP Detective Bill Ryan, a twenty year veteran
of the Department who served the majority of his career
in the Detective Bureau, most notably in the Arson explosion squad. So,
if you need a PI to handle anything from fraud,
legal services, and anything else that you might require, contact
Bill at three four seven four one seven sixteen ten

(02:44):
Again three four seven four one seven sixteen ten. Reach
them at his website or the email that you see here. Again,
if you need a PI look no further than Bill
Ryan and the Ryan Investigative Group, a proud supporter and
sponsor of the Mike and new Haven podcast. And just
to quick wink and nine to all of you who
are on the Getting Salted cruise this past Saturday as
a fun time. You couldn't have askeded better weather. So

(03:06):
thanks to all who showed up to support the show
and for your continued support over the years of what
we've been able to accomplish. Were very proud of what
we're doing at Salty Dog Apparel and of course everything
we're doing with the program as well. All Right, my
next guest is a thirty eight year veteran of the
FD and Y whose career took him from originally Engine
twenty three in Midtown heck of a place to start
all the way to the top of the department as

(03:26):
Chief of Department, heck of a place to finish. Along
the way, he commanded some of the city's busiest companies, borroughs,
and divisions, earning a reputation as a calm, capable and
highly respected leader, steady hand guide to the department through
fire storms and the COVID nineteen pandemic, and his legacy
is one of both tactical expertise as well as institutional strength.
For this volume sixty nine of the best and bravest

(03:46):
interviews with the Ft and Wives Elite. We welcome retired
Ft and Wide Chief of Department, John Slipik, Chief Welcome.
How are you.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I'm doing well, by caw about yourself?

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Doing well, doing well. I love the summer. I'm sad
it's winding down, so I'm just trying to so up
the dog days, if you will, before we get that
classic New England fall again in winter. But all's well
over here and looking forward to chronicling you tonight. So
before we get into anything regarding your career, tell me
first where did you grow up and did you have
any family on the job at all?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah? So first generation on the fire department. So I'm
proud to say that.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
But I grew up. I grew up in Flesh and
queens So in an area that's known as Queensborough Hill
or for short, the Hill. So I was one of
the hill boys, if you will. So, yeah, I was
born and raised there. I was born and raised in

(04:45):
the same house my mom grew up in. So at
that house, that home was in my family since nineteen
thirty three, and so it was a middle class neighborhood
primarily Rettalian and Irish. And my house was a block
up from Sant Anne's Church and two blocks from Bootimorial

(05:10):
Hospital for those of who were familiar with the area.
So so yeah, that's that was my humble upbringings. Spent
a lot of time put the pool around and playing
around in the school yard there by Sant Anne's school,
and it was a great place to grow up.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
For sure. It sounds like it. So it's interesting with
guys and gallus who came on the job eventually rather
BEPD or FD, because I hear a lot and I
don't know if this was your case, you can fill
me in. Where you know, you get to about fifteen, sixteen,
seventeen years old, either dad or mom or any kind
of friend or relative to the family goes, hey, start
taking the city test. You don't have to take the job,

(05:52):
but take the test. You never know you can get
a nice pension.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Was that your case, Well, yes, sort of it It wasn't.
It wasn't. My my mom and dad they encouraged me
to go the route of school college. But the guys
who I hung around with, you know, guys who I
played softball with, Guys who I hung around the school
yard with. Everybody started again, started taking those tests, they

(06:19):
took nypd FD sanitation. They started taking him around, you know,
seventeen eighteen years old, or filling out the applications for them.
So so I was. I had a good friend of
mine who who I worked in Tony's Corner Deli with.

(06:39):
He got on a job and went to a company
in Harlem and and he was a close friend of mine.
He absolutely loved it. I also had another good friend
of mine who I played roller hockey with. His dad
was lieutenant of one thirty eight truck in Corona, and
they used to come by the school yard watches play

(07:02):
games with the two ladder when we played games down
in Corona, that was our home field. And he was
a big push and influence for me to come on
the job. I think he was the one who actually
got me the application. He also they had a gym
in their garage and he lived on the other side
of Flushing, But I used to go down there and

(07:23):
start working out. That's when I started putting on some
getting some strength, started jumping rope, running and I was
getting ready for that physical exam and that's the only
one that I signed up for was FD. So so
and obviously glad I did. So.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, I'd say that was a wise decision looking back. Yeah, yep, absolutely,
as were Chronicle Tonight in depth. This is volume sixty
nine of the best, the Bravest interviews with the ft
and WI is the leader guest. Today, I retired Fday
Chief of Department, John Sudek. Just a quick glow and
the chat to John Costella, Christian Williams, Steve Virado, Garrett
Lndren who retired out of Rescue three who worked at

(08:04):
slightly SDNI merger in eighteen ninety six. So the academy
and back then, because I know it fluctuated when you
went down to the Rock eighty four eighty five. How
long was it for me?

Speaker 2 (08:16):
It was seven weeks? Yeah, seven weeks in nineteen eighty five.
I was the third class eighty five and the last
week was like peace officure training, So it was really
a six week academy and then another week for specialized training.
So so yeah, it was I was working out of college.

(08:36):
I got out of college and I say June I
started working. In July, I was in a a company
down on Wall Street. Hated it, couldn't stand it, and
didn't like sitting behind a desk. So so the fire
department sent me my letter and I typed out my
letter resignation for that company, and I was in the

(08:59):
October class. It was great.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
That's such a quick turnaround. I can't imagine an academy
being that short today, but at times were different back then.
But this is an interesting time, not just your career,
with your life, because you get the six weeks essentially,
like you said, only the last one was just peace
officer training and right from there twenty three Engine in Midtown,
so you know from that period or you go ahead.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, no, it was. It really was a quick turnaround.
So I would say right around Thanksgiving I was in
the fireoffs and and you know, you know where the
twenty three engine is. It's right and right around the
corner from Carnegie Hall. It's a great place to be
around the holidays, a lot of tourists around, a lot

(09:42):
of activity. So it was it was, it was really, uh,
it was really kind of if you come to think
about it, it was really a quick turnaround coming from
where I can't come.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, oh yeah in a month's time, and you know
we'll get into twenty three engine. As you said, Midtown
man hat. Anywhere you go, most proby's out of the
Academy are going somewhere busy. It doesn't matter which the
fire borroughs, you're gonna most likely find yourself in a
house that's fast paced. It doesn't get any faster than Midtown.
It doesn't matter what era you're working in. Midtown's always
moving because it's not just the boxes, there's plenty of those,

(10:17):
you know, it's the NBA, it's the subway emergencies. There's
a lot that prepares you across the board when it
comes to all aspects of firefighting. So getting down there,
who was the first officer you had, and what do
you recall most from the crew around that time in
terms of how they guided you and broke you in.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
So tell a quick story about my first captain, Captain
Larry Sloan, great, great man. And I'll tell you a
a little story about him later, sure, But the first
so when you're go into the firehouse, obviously the first
thing you want to do is meet your captain. That's
an age old tradition, right, So it doesn't matter whether

(10:57):
you're on do or you're off duty. You go find
when the captain's working and you go visit him. So
he was an old school captain, very very consistent, straight
by the book type of guy he was. He was
beloved in the firehouse because of that, because of his consistency.

(11:18):
But he was tough. He was tough on the probe's especially,
So first day I walked in the firehouse, I introduced myself.
He told me, since we don't have a firehouse cat,
you're the lowest form of life in this firehouse. And
then from there he went on to say how great
of a place it was, and how he was obviously, uh,

(11:41):
very glad to have me in his firehouse. But he
kind of set the tone right off the bat as
far as far as saying, you know where I where.
I kind of landed on the totem pole, if you
so to speak. So, but great guy, and the firehouse, Mike,
you know it. It was half the fire house was

(12:01):
a very senior house, very well respected in the battalion
and by all the companies in the battalion. Half the
company had over twenty years on the job. Half the
company and we had a full roster. We had twenty
five guys on the roster, and half of those guys
probably had thirty years or more on the job, believe
it or not. So and then we had the other half,

(12:22):
which had a Mexican guys who had you know, fifteen twelve.
I was the only proby at the time, but there
was another guy who just got all probation. So it
was really a good mix of experience in the firehouse.
The other officers were came from various areas throughout the city.

(12:44):
You know, one guy came from Brooklyn from one O
three truck he was a fireman. Another guy came from
the Bronx where he was a fireman, and you know,
so the learning opportunity was there right from the.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
Start, and it's all what would come later, you know,
in terms of emergencies, I'll ask to I know, they
all kind of blend together, but it doesn't have to
be a box to be anything. From that early stage
in your career, what's a call that stood out that
really shaped your approach if you will.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, you know, I would say I think everybody remembers
the first fire, right, so I think in my case,
and it wasn't long. It was only a few weeks
for me, it was it was I don't know exactly
if it was in December or January, but it was
a cold night, and you know, we get a box
on the west side and it wasn't a high rise fire,

(13:36):
I believe it or not. It was a sentiment fire,
which which you know, we're I guess if you had
to say what the percentage of fires were, whether it's
fireproof or non fireproof, the fireproof fires in midtown probably
out number the ones that you got that were non fireproof.
But anyway, kind of in on the west side, we

(13:57):
were first do edgine the fires, and uh in the
cellar there was a storefront, so you know, they popped
the doco doors and I had to back up our
company out of policy where the proby always backed up
the senior man, and that was the case. And I
know the guy who who was backing up as a guy,

(14:18):
uh who I really admired, was a senior guy's name
was Joe, A shooter, and uh, you know, it just
kind of followed his leads flaked out the hose line.
Lieutenant was you know, making sure I got the hose
line flaked out, and UH waited for you know, wait
to watch Joe put his mask on. I put my
mask on, and we went down and we put out

(14:39):
the fire in the basement, you know. But unfortunately I
think it went to a second because it got up above.
And there's a lot of fires and and old littenements.
Do they get up in the pipe recesses. But but
that was my first taste and as as that's as
as my first fire.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
I mean, and thank you for telling that story. Of course,
there's the lessons learned with being a pipe man. There's
a lesson learns obvious lessons learned rather in making your hydrants,
and a lot of training went into that. But let's
talk on high rise for a second, because that followed
you your whole career where you started. Obviously, once you
became an officer, it was something that you had to
think about a lot because if you look across the country,
a lot of big cities, yeah, a lot of high

(15:22):
rises in those cities, yes, But I think not only
across America, but across the world. The general consensus opinion
in the fire services, the kings of high rise firefighting
is the FDNY because it's not that they have so much.
It's that, especially in a burrow like Manhattan, there's a
lot of them in one tight space. You go one block,
there's a seventy story building. You go another block, there's
a seventy five story building. So how often would your

(15:45):
captain or even your lieutenant on certain days, just if
there was nothing going on in one of those rare
days where it was slow, take it to a high rise.
Gets you familiar with standpipe operations.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, well, that that's part of your training. I mean,
anytime we it seems like when we had a run
or out on building inspection, it always kind of turned
into somewhat of a drill, especially when you're when you're new. Right,
So standpipe operations are so so important in an area
and in every area of the city. But you know,

(16:18):
you know, our bosses and us, the senior men, they
always took the time to, you know, show you the
right way to do things, what what to expect if
this happens, and you know, and that that probably happens
in every company in Manhattan, you know, because they're challenging fires.

(16:39):
It's you know, and it's not just it's just not
standpipe operations. It's elevator operations. You know, you have to
know what you're doing, making sure you're taking the elevator,
you know, to the right floor, you know, different elevator banks,
just kind of getting the layout of And obviously, you know,
you can't know every building, every high rise building like

(17:00):
the back of your hand, but there's a lot of
commonalities in high rise buildings that and then there's also
the ones that are the the the outliers, the the
anomalies that you know that you want to know. And
and you get that by by going on runs, just
driving buy buildings and then hearing the stories and and
maybe you didn't go to a fire, but somebody else did,

(17:22):
and then you come back to the firehouse and they
talk about it and this is what they did at
this particular flyre so and and you know, all these
fires in Manhattan, as you know, you know a lot
of them are are named after the buildings that they're in, right,
you know, the Trump Tower fire or the mcaulay Culkin
fire or this that, So they're all kind of they're

(17:45):
all kind of mid town spectaculars, if you will, but
you learn, you learn a lot even if you if
you even if you didn't go to them, you kind
of heard about. And that was the good part about
working in that area.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
How many runs was it common for the engine go
on in a year and not even a year to
maybe even a tool.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, so back then that was pre remember that was
pre cfr D, right, Yeah, So so we were kind
of a middle of a road company. You know, we
didn't have you know, pull boxes obviously weren't there. There
was some RS boxes, but that wasn't the type of
the area where they would you know, you would go
out on those types of boxes. What we did do

(18:24):
was go out on a lot of class class E alarms,
which were uh he is to call it the electronic ghetto,
you know, because that kept you busy. But you know,
so they probably still call it the electronic ghetto, but
but yeah, it was. We probably did between you know,
probably about twenty five hundred runs back then a year,

(18:47):
so it was a metaphor. And then you know, I
know today twenty three engines probably doing over five thousand,
you know with cfr D and and uh and a
lot of those midtown engine companies are doing the same.
So but that's that's the department in general. I mean,
the department is just responding more the areas of more

(19:09):
densely populated now and so, but with activity comes learning, right,
so you're always always looking for a chance to try
to get out of the firehouse.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Of course, anytime you can, you know, it's an education.
I remember a story that Chief Leave told a while
ago on this program. It's about three o'clock in the
morning during the early days of Squad eighteen at nineteen
ninety eight, nineteenety nine, I think he was on overtime
in eighteen and Jerry Tracy finished up as a battalion
chief who's also formerly been on this program, was trilling
guys at three o'clock in the morning on how to

(19:42):
cut a gate and what would happen if you got
to box this location. So you know, they may not
be three o'clock in the morning, but there's always a chance.
You can never stop learning. Every call, every two or
presents some form of an education.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, I remember when I was in twenty three, Jerry
Tracy was a lieutenant of four truck So I remember
when he first got there, and you know, very knowledgeable
guy who was a fly tight instructor and he certainly
had as you know a nice player about him, always had,
and I'm sure he still does.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
He does, He certainly does. I wanted to ask you
kind of moving into two thirty five Engines, which takes
you to Brooklyn around nineteen ninety four, when you get promoted.
You know, as I've asked before different guys, it's the
same question here. Certain guys kind of come on with
the mentality that you know what one day, even if
they don't vocalize it for obvious reasons, I'd like to
be an officer, And gradually they learn from their officer

(20:34):
and senior guys and they start really applying themselves to
the books for their opportunity other guys, that kind of
comes to them as they go. Which camp did you
fall in?

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, so I would say, you know, I was influenced
by a couple of guys in the flyhouse who were
taking the eighty nine eighty six Lieutenant's test. So when
I first got on, they were already studying in the flyhouse,
some guys, and I remember, you know then he Dunn

(21:11):
coming into quarters once and I was a proby he
came in I believe it was for annual inspection and
I was working that day and obviously he comes in
and he goes through the whole fire house. And our
fire house was always immaculate. And you know, the deputy chief,
as a general rule, would you know, ask a question
about something about the rig in most cases. So I

(21:34):
was a prob. He asked me the question, and then
he started talking about the the lieutenant's test that was
coming up at the time. And you know, he advocated
for everybody to keep studying. And he was obviously deputy
and worked his way up through the ranks, and you know,
he basically said, it's the opportunities there for everybody, you

(21:57):
should take advantage of it. And and I think he
even singled me out and encourage me to do so
as well.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Oh, the connection is going back on their second chief
will put the Chief backstage, Volume sixty nine of the Best,
the Bravest Interviews with the FD and wives the lead.
Sorry for that, ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait until the
chief connection is restored. There he was in the middle
of a telling a story, of course, about studying for
lieutenant because in nineteen ninety four, and I'll let him
tell this when he comes back on he was promoted

(22:31):
to lieutenant and was assigned to two thirty five engine
in Brooklyn, So you know, that's kind of a five
year chapter in his career along the way and his
rise to the chief of department. So we'll wait until
the technical difficulties resolve. But in the meantime, if you
say hi to those youtuning in here, and if you
got a question. As I've said before, it doesn't matter
if you're watching via YouTube, LinkedIn or Twitter, signwriter or

(22:55):
it's just me, fire away the question and we'll be
able to highlight at the appropriate time a quick reminder
coming up with the Mike Podcast, and they'll make mention
of it again. At the end, we'll be Martin Pack
who worked at the U y E.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Mess.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
The chief is back on and the chief we left
off with chief done encouraging you to take them tennis testing.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, so that's so, I did I think you know
I spent I played. I don't know if I if
you know this about me, but I played for two
years on the fdmy hockey team. Yeah, so it was
a great experience. But you know, I was I was
like a third line player, so I wasn't I wasn't
the cream of the crop, but I loved it. Uh

(23:34):
what the captain of the team, Mike Proceeds was in
my fly as so. But I played a lot of
role hockey growing up, and I felt like I was
playing so much ice hockey back though then in those days,
I you know. And then when I picked up the books, uh,
to start studying, I kind of made it more recreational
than competitive, which was, I guess a pretty good move.

(23:55):
But but yeah, so so I started studying, probably got
ada and I did what everybody else was doing with
the fire at tech. I got in a study group
and that's that was. That was the start of it.
And and the words of device that a guy in
my fly out said, Tom van Doorn, uh you know,
he wrote the highest in all italion. He said, when

(24:18):
you study, you want to study to be like you
want to be number one, because you don't want to
have to do it again. And we get the test
once every four years, so you don't want to go
back and take it again four years from that. So
that was the advice that I took. I was always
a pretty good student in school, So studying, uh, I mean,
it doesn't really come easy to anybody, I don't think.

(24:39):
But but you know, I kind of, you know, forced
myself to do well, and and I did pretty well,
you know.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, yeah, I would say when you're determined, you know,
the mindset on and of course there's nothing the mind
cannot accomplish. And you accomplished it. You made it, and
it takes you to Brooklyn. Because as we know by now,
when you get promoted in the New York City Fire Department,
you don't stay in your company. It'd have to be
really extreme circumstances for you to do. So you're going
to go somewhere else, probably another borough altogether, and you
went to Brooklyn. So you jumped from you know, being

(25:09):
either a piper or a hydrate guy, maybe even a driver,
I don't know if you were driving by the end
of it, to being in the front seat as a lieutenant.
So going out to two thirty five again, Brooklyn engines
tend to be very very busy in their own right.
A lot more fire duty out in Brooklyn given the
size to the borough. Same as true as we covered
before of the Bronx. Tell me about first getting there
and before we even get into going out on calls

(25:30):
and boxes, just learning your crew.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, So so I didn't go right to two thirty
five engine, you know, did g ufl Yeah, well you
cover first. So so they when I got there the
eleventh Division, you know, even though it was assigned to
the five to seven Battalion, you know, they put the
UFO actually in two four engine, which is has been disbanded.

(25:54):
So and it was a nice place, and I actually
you know, went to a few good fly as they
and then from there I went to two two engine UFO.
So I worked around the three two of the TI,
and that's where the openings were right. But I was
determined to work my way back towards bedstyle. You know,
I wanted to work there. I knew some some some

(26:17):
people who worked there, and I just wanted to be
where there was more fire duty. I worked in an
active unit in Manhattan, but it wasn't the amount of
fire duty that I was looking for, especially being a
young new lieutenant. So so I actually reached out to

(26:37):
a good friend of mine on the hockey team, Joe Downey,
and I knew his dad, Ray Downey, from playing hockey,
and and Ray put a good word for me in
with the division to say, like, you know, there was
an opening in the eight in the eighteen R group
in the Battalion five seven, So I jumped on that
and the companies and there were two thirty five engine

(26:58):
two fourteen to nineteen and latter one to eleven. So
I had that all group for about a year, and
I was working right where I wanted to. I got
to know the chief officers there, I got to know
the company officers. I used to work mutuals for guys
in you know, in all those companies, and that's kind

(27:19):
of really where I learned, you know, the full job
of being a lieutenant was bouncing through those companies. And
and I never minded covering as a as a young officer.
I was young, I was single, I didn't have the
commitments that a lot of you know, new promoted officers had.

(27:39):
I just wanted to learn the job. And I'm glad
I took that our group. And then when you know,
the opportunity came for a UFO spot in two thirty five,
you know, the chiefs they had knew me, and they
made their recommendation. The chiefs and the five seven, you know,
made the record recommendation and put me there, made the

(28:01):
recommendation of the division, and I got a UFO spot
in two thirty five ench and and that's how I
ended up in that wonderful flys.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
And for those of you that are not familiar with
ft Andy vernacular, UFO stands for until further orders. So
for as you mentioned, yes, when an officer is promoted,
barring anything unforeseen, they're usually going to bounce around for
a little bit just to get a feel for the
front seat, which is what you did. And of course
this is a five year chapter in your career. Uh
So for those of you not familiar to thirty five
inches located over on Monroe Street in Brooklyn, New York.

(28:35):
So what part of Brooklyn are we talking here? We're
talking flat Bush, Bushwick. Where is it? Whereabouts in Brooklyn?

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Well, it's the right in the heart of bed Sty.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Even better, so.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Then it's the eye of the bedsty. Is that's the
moment the call signal. So it's it's right there Monroe
and Nostrin. You know, you know you're run in with
some great companies there, the truck companies you run into,
you know, latter one eleven one O two truck, one
thirty two truck. Uh So, you're right, we were right

(29:10):
right way you wanted to be if.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
You wanted to get some fire, du oh, you were
going to get plenty of it. So you know, again,
you had nine years to learn previously before the promotion,
and I feel like that's a good part in your
career to make that jump. It's just about a decade
on the job. So while you don't know everything, you've
been around the block. You've seen some things. You've had
a good feel. Of course, as we talked about earlier,
learned from senior guys and learning from your officers early on.

(29:33):
What are the incidents that stand out? It could be
a fire where you came away saying, all right, you
know what as a newer officer, I think I'm starting
to get my legs under me. I think I handled
that pretty well.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, I mean so as a as a young officer,
a new officer is you know, it's it's it's probably
the biggest jump you're going to make, you know. I
remember some of the early flyers that I had that
it wasn't an engine took thirty five I remember, you know, uh,
a good fire that I had in two or four
engine that it was it was a factory fire in

(30:07):
the middle of the night, came in as any r
S box. So you know, we were there. The rolldown
gates were already opened, so we were there by ourselves
and it went to a forth along but we were by
ourselves there for a while and we stretched to an
afag line and you know, we operated them there until
you know, until the master ran out. And that you know,
that was an early fire that you know, I guess

(30:29):
for young lieutenant, you said to yourself, Wow, this is
really what it's all about. But you know, it's it's
what you do, you know, I guess you just that's
what you're trained to do. You know, I had another
fire and two O two engine, which was you know,
another significant fire, went to a second or third alarm
and you know that fire, I learned about the importance

(30:53):
of communications with the chief out in front and giving
him give him a concise report on the progress that
you're making or you're not making. So that was that
was a learning experience as well. And uh, you know,
and then again when you know, when I got into

(31:14):
into that our group, I was able to work in
the engine and the truck and you know, I got
to learn a little bit of of of uh you know,
or a lot I should say, of both types of operations.
And you know that's and every tour you work, you
just you get more confident, you learn a little bit more,

(31:34):
you learn a little bit more about the company, you
learn a little bit more about the area that you're
working in. And yeah, and then and then after that, well,
the far as you go to, you know, you can't
remember you know, one from from the next. Uh, you know, so.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Absolutely, And and there's also crew management as well, because
now you know, as I've covered before, it's it's not
just your safety as that of your crew knowing where
everybody is. Where's my pipe guy Okay, he's behind or
he's in front of me, Rather where's my hydrate guy?
Is he in yet? Where's my chauffeur?

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Is he still pumping? Is he coming in? Depending on
the scenario. So all that factors into it too. It's
a lot to juggle. But I think with the proper training,
as we'll talk about, and as we've covered already to
an extent, you know, it becomes it's never easy, per se,
but it becomes less strenuous to manage with time and experience.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know, our companies all of the
companies that I worked in, and I would I would
say that you know, as far as engine company operations go.
In the fdmy everybody knows their basic positions, and you know,
you have a job to do. You're you know, you're
automatically assuming that everybody is getting it done. You know,

(32:47):
we've had the as far as engine company operations go,
you know, there's always the benefit of having a second
do engine helping with the stretch and that makes things
go well, uh, you know, go as well as they
could go. You know, there's there's an old adage that says,
uh that you know, probably more lives are saved by

(33:08):
proper positioning of the headlines than any other anything else
you could do in the fire department. And and and
that's why you know, having a well trained unit, having
you know, chief officers who know the importance of getting
that first line into operation working, and it doesn't matter
which area of the city you're working, it's you're going

(33:30):
to you're going to get that same level, that same
level of competent, it's that same level of training. Are
you going to run into problems, Yes, you're going to
run into problems, but that's then that's the and that's
the importance of having a boss, having a lieutenant or
capital company officer, is to identify what those problems are,
you know, and let the chief know who's out in

(33:52):
the street, you know what it is that you're not doing.
If you if you're you know how well you're doing
making progress when you get in there. If if it
looks like you're going to get it done or you're
not going to get it done for whatever reason, if
you need more online, you have to, you know, you
call for it. That's just you know, that's the nature
the beast. That's bread and butter. Engine Company operators.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Steve, I see your question in the shadow, get to
it momentarily. But in light of that, and of course,
the first two area of twenty three compared to the
first two area of two thirty five is shramatically different.
Midtowm Manhattan versus bedstize night and day. But compared to
some of the drills that you know your officer would
run with you in twenty three when you first became
a lieutenant, what were some of the drills that you
took with you if applicable from twenty three it started

(34:36):
running them to thirty five once he got there.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, I mean it's always knowing the type of buildings
that you have that you're that you're operating in is
key an Engine two thirty five, it's brownstones, road frames,
you know. So it was although you had brownstones in Midtown,
they were usually you know, five million dollar brownstones, you know,

(35:01):
and you know you didn't have a lot of fires
in them. But you know, when we got to thirty five, it's,
you know, it's it's really textbook brown stone roll frame
firefighting in that area. And that's what you know, you
focus on. Did we have stamppipe operations in where I
wasn't to thirty five? Not a lot, not a lot,

(35:22):
but you didn't have you know, you did go maybe
on a multiple alarm or into the projects or whatever
it is, whether it's a stamppipe operation. But so so
the areas were kind of completely different. But that said,
you know, some of the commonalities is is you know,
pump operations. You know, I wasn't a chauffeur. I got

(35:44):
promoted before I went to Schulf for school, like I said,
and in twenty three engine very senior fly affs, So
you know, I think it wasn't no I think you know,
you know, if you have fifteen years on the job,
the captain sent you to the Chauff School unless you
really wanted to go, which you know most of the

(36:07):
most of us younger guys, you know, we don't want
to We don't want to take the seat we wanted.
And then that's different than it is today. You go
to some companies now and you know, you have three
four years on the job and guess what you're up.
You're going to Sofa school, which is great because that's
something that you have to have, that basic knowledge of
pumping operations. But so I would say there's the commonality

(36:29):
between the two companies is just knowing you know how
to get you know how to get a you know
your handline and position, how to get the right You're
always at multi init drill, you're always charging lines right,
that's where you learn, you know how to operate the pumps.
If you're in a truck, that's where you're learning. And
and also that's where you know we would do We

(36:50):
would have when I was in twenty three, we'd have
a multi in a drill with thirty five truck and
we would they would always put us up in the
bucket and we get to operate, you know as working
in the towel lot, and that was that was great.
That was great experience. But you know when you got
when you got to you know, to to when I

(37:11):
got to the bed stye area, it was you know,
especially the drills that you have, the improvtu drills that
you have after runs are out on BI which is
so important. You know, the focus was a little bit different.
You know, you're talking about the type of stretches you know,
well hold stretches that you're going to have, you know,

(37:31):
you know, a rope stretch if you will, so, uh,
you know. So, although there are still basic operations that
I would just say, the difference was the focus.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Talking with the retired f Y Chief and Department John
Setnick here in the Mike and New Even podcast, volume
sixty nine of the Best Rays interviews with the Ft
and Wise Elite. So Steve's question, if we can highlight
that produce BICKI is you want to know, as lieutenant,
did you ever transmit a second alarm before a battalion chief?

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Right? I don't recall I ever did, because and again
most of my time is spent with the in two
thirty five, and we had the five seven and quarters
with us. So if I would have transmitted a second
on arrival and the chief was right behind me, he

(38:20):
might add a thing to say about a guy. I said,
you know, if you're in and out more outline lying company, right,
and you could think about, you know, some of the
engine companies where it takes a while for the for
the chief to get in, you know, transmitting a second

(38:40):
on arrival, would you know, would probably be a little
bit more acceptable. But where I was, companies were located,
you know, so close together, so I need that doesn't
mean that the chief didn't transmit a second on his
arrival when we got there. We've had you know, you know,
I don't know how many exactly we have, but I'm
sure well, you had an advanced fire on arrival. You know,

(39:02):
you have two floors of flyre on arrival, that's a
second along and so but you know, knowing that the
chief is behind me coming into the box, you know,
I'll give it time to seventy five. He'll transmit the second, no.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Problem, right, Yeah, and there you go, and that's pretty seamless. Again,
it goes back to knowing your area Mike Thomas, I
see your question. I'm gonna get to that a little
bit later. I just want to make sure I go
in order. But it's a good one and I do
see it. So that brings us into engine to ninety.
When you get promoted to captain in nineteen ninety nine
and lieutenant to captain's an easier transition. A lot of
guys to kind of describe it as been there and
done that. You didn't have too ninety long. Only a

(39:37):
couple of years there in nineteen ninety nine to two
thousand and one before the promotion of battalion chief. But nevertheless,
another great house. You got one oh three trucking quarters
with you as well, still in Brooklyn. Tell me about
those two years there and what you most enjoyed about it.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, so, actually it was it was a lot less
than that, I believe it or not. I got promoted
to captain. I was only captain for two years. I
got promoted to captain in nineteen ninety nine. I got
a signed actually to the eighth Division. So again, you know,
one thing about our department is uh, and I know this.
You know uh. You know from from being in operations

(40:14):
for four and a half years. You know, part of
the is equalizing man power throughout the divisions and throughout
the battalions. So division when I got part of the captain,
Division eight needed captains. That's where I went. I went
to Division eight. So so I'll try to make this quick.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
So a good I'll take your time.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
A good friend of mine, Steve Garrety, Uh he lived
right around the corner from my dad in Rockfelle Center.
And uh and and I always wanted to work my way.
I wanted to go to the fifteenth Division. So I
was assigned to the eleventh. I like Brooklyn. I got a
taste of it, you know, I felt like, you know,
I really wanted to get some more, some more Brooklyn work.

(40:58):
I just really like, really like work in that burrow.
So he said, well, he goes there was an opportunity
to do an offline detail down to headquarters and work
on a project for an ocean mandate two and two
out doesn't matter, I said one. And he said it'd
be a good opportunity to maybe get that transferred to

(41:21):
the fifteenth division. Moved up that you were looking for,
I said, sign me up. So and that's what that's
what we did. We worked. I worked on that for
from you know, probably ninety nine till early two thousand
and when we were done. We did a great job,
I think because when we were all said and done,

(41:44):
Chief Nro was the Chief Operations and Chief Guancy was
the Chief of Department. And they asked us, well, where
do you want to go? And I said, you know,
I'd like to go to fifteenth Division And they said, well, yes,
is there a UFO spot you're interested in? And two
ninety was one of the companies where UFO spot was open.

(42:08):
Jimmy Riches just got promoted to captain and uh and
I said, well, you know, I knew that it was
one of the it was the busiest company h in Brooklyn,
and I wanted to be busy. And that's and that's
that's what I requested. Another thing that you know, my
dad grew up in East New York. He grew up
on Barbie Street and between Lavonia and Dumont, so I

(42:31):
had a little like family connection there. I heard the
story stories he used to tell of the old neighborhood.
And you know, so there's a little sentimental reason there
as well. But but yeah, and I and I know
some guys who worked there, and you know, they said,
you know, the company is great, great company, you know.
I mean it's you just if there's any problem and
you just got to pull the reins back. That's they're

(42:52):
just so aggressive, so so much, so so much into it.
And I said, that's for me, and so I took
the UFO spot and then I got eventually ended up
getting a spot, but I was only there for about
a year before nine to eleven.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
So yeah, we'll get into that momentarily. You know, obviously
it was circumstances beyond everyone's control, as we'll highlight. But
if you could go back and time, that's a spot.
Even though listen, you worked in plenty of other great
places after this, I imagine you wish you had more time
there because it is a great spot.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
Oh of course. I mean that's one of the regrets,
not just being from there. Just one of the regrets
that I've had is not being able to have more
time as a as a captain, as a company commander,
and more time in that firehouse because it was it
was such a great experience. It's a you know, you know, great,

(43:46):
great group of firefighters there just told me to talk
about training that talk about drills at three in the morning. Uh,
you know that that's that was That was more the
rule in the exception. And you didn't as a as
a captain or even as a company officer, you didn't

(44:07):
even have to actually be the one calling the drills
that they did the firefighters. The fireman did it themselves,
you know, so great senior guys there, you know, would
just come in and just you know, and I learned
a lot. I learned a lot from those guys, you know,
even though as a captain, you know, I learned a

(44:30):
lot about that area, learned a lot about a lot
of engine company operations. And and having the truck there
next year was it was a bonus. Great great fire
offers there. I saw, you know, you have rich Doumeig
on one of one of his shows. Yeah, I watched.
I watched his segment and I was getting flashbacks. You know,

(44:53):
he hasn't changed a bit. He just he tells, he
tells a story the same way he did. And and
believe Richie was my if I remember correct, it was
my twenty fourth partner. So he used to see him
all the time. Either I was relieving him and he
was relieving me. But what a pleasure uh working with
him and uh and and he and and the other

(45:13):
lieutenants as well, Mike Carbon, Mike Donovan. Those guys were
perfect bosses in that fire ass where you know their
reputation was. It wasn't easy to be a boss in
those in that fire ass for for most people or
for some people, but those guys fit in perfectly in
that company.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
And short rich Domick was and I actually got to
see see him personally in June. They had a little
bit of reunion that that they have a couple of
times a year, so I got to talk to him
there and it was a pleasure catch out put.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Him so No, he's a gentleman. I had the chance
to ask the future of the book as well, in
addition to feature him on the podcast. So shout out
to you register, good to see you pop up in
the chat my friend. Of course, he retired I believe
out of there in two thousand and two, and Mike Thomas,
as you bring up, Yes, lure Frano when he got
promoted to lieutenant out of to eighty eight, was into
ninety one oh three for seven years before he went
back to eighty eight. As an officer. So I'll ask you.

(46:12):
There was a series of promotions made because of the
devastation of nine to eleven loss amongst the ranks on
the Sunday following the tragedy. The tragedy occurred on a Tuesday.
Were you among the battlefield promotions?

Speaker 2 (46:26):
I was, it was I believe the I believe this
ceremony was on the sixteenth of September and effected the seventeenth.
But yeah, I was, you know, you know, I was
at the near the top of the little the Kaya
chiefs list. I was number fifteen. I wasn't expecting, you know,

(46:49):
any movement in that list for at least another year.
But obviously we lost you know, twenty three chief officers
on nine to eleven, and we had to, you know,
the department had to start rebuilding immediately. So there was
that huge promotion right after, right after nine eleven. I
was included in.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
That, yep, And you went to the fiftieth Battalion subsequently
out of that, and again you had that until two
thousand and three. So with the fiftieth battalion, what part
of the city are we talking? What area? Tell me
about the layout?

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, so that's a huge response area. Battalion five zero
Jamaica Queens, South Queens, so you know, ten ten companies
in the battalions. So we went in from South Jamaica
to you know, east of you know, Fresh Meadows, to
the west to Ridgewood perhaps to the Van Work Expressway.

(47:48):
It was just a huge response area and a great,
great area to work as well. Learned it awful lot
working in that time.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
I can imagine you also had one twenty seven truck
and two ninety eight engine in quarters with you. That's
so that helps you. Having companies like that, you're you're
disposed to utilize. So given the response area, everyone is
thinking about terrorism in late two thousand and one, two
thousand and two, and two thousand and three. As battalion chief,
you can kind of, unfortunately because of the sensitivity of
the times, plan around that in addition to the regular

(48:21):
emergencies that you're pre planning for. So if you can't
talk about too much of it, that's fine, but just
back then tell me about trying to incorporate something like
that intent trails going forward, which I imagine had to
be hard.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, I mean, so you know, after nine to eleven,
obviously this is height and alert of of what's going
to be the next the next show to drop right,
I don't know. A couple of months after nine to eleven,
it was a plane crash in the rockaways and you know,
everybody right and I was working that day, right and

(48:55):
right off the bat, I thought that was I thought
that was terrorists. I thought that was a terrorist. It
ended up not being. It was just you know, a
malfunction in the plane and it crashed off the rock ways.
But that said, you know, there was everybody, you know,
whether it was thinking there was going to be you know,

(49:15):
a chemical attack in the subway or or or you know,
or a car bomb or you know, something in the airport,
you know, something at one of the stadiums. Uh, you know,
we were you know, trying to be trying to the
department as a whole was was was preparing, we were training,

(49:38):
We were you know a lot of it was specialized training.
We were you know, we were our resources were We're
training to do different things to to you know, address
the vulnerabilities we had to another potential attack. And so
so yeah, I mean whether you were uh a chief

(50:01):
officer of company, officer of fire fighter, there was always
that situational awareness that you needed to kind of maintain
after nine to eleven, that was like built into the
psyche of us law in the department.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
And it's really a quick turnaround overall, even before nine
to eleven, nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and three,
from captain to battalion chief to deputy chief. Deputy chief
is proudly is an interesting rank for you here as
we continue to prove it for your career because it
allowed you to at least get some you know, it
may essentially get some stability under your feet. You know,
you were there for five years. You go back to

(50:40):
Manhattan to Division three, which Benny Done had a Division
three forever, So it's full circle for you. The first
nine years, of course has been covered earlier, were spent
in twenty three. So getting back to Manhattan in two
thousand and three as a deputy, tell me about your
goals and tell me about just how you wanted to
best utilize the companies you had at your disposal.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yes, so you know when my promotion to I was
September of twenty two thousand and three, you know, sal Casano,
when I put in my request, you know, I hadn't
worked in the Bronx and he and I asked, when
I asked, the requested from Sal, if I can go

(51:19):
to the Bronx, you know. He said, I'll think about it,
and he put me in the first division. Actually, so
so I was originally signed to division IE as a
as a as a deputy chief. He you know, I
guess you know, Sal Sal really shaping my career personally.
Got to know Sad a lot after nine to eleven.

(51:41):
I got to know him a little bit as a lieutenant.
But that's how far back I go with Salbat, but
he really kind of orchestrated my career to a large extent.
And and Sal was in the first division he got
he was a deputy in the first and he was
in the fifteenth, but he was also in the first,

(52:01):
and he was an advocate for working in Manhattan if
you're going to continue, you know, going through the ranks.
And I guess that's what he saw me, and so
I worked. I was in the in the first division
for about a year and then there was some movement
up in the third division. A couple of guys got
promoted went to staff. And then I asked him if
I it was okay if I put a transfer paper

(52:22):
into Division three. He said, no problem, I did that.
You know. I covered that for a little bit, and
then I ended up getting the spot in the third division. Actually,
I was pretty quickly made division commander there, and I
was working in what they call, I guess especially known

(52:42):
as the flagship division for probably because it produces so
many chiefs that go through that division that go to staff.
If you know, I could tick off probably a dozen
names of people who went through a Division three that
eventually became staff chiefs. But but but the chat the area,

(53:02):
whether you were in the first Division in Manhattan or
the third Division of Manhattan, they're kind of similar, you know,
different different buildings in the first division that you don't
really have predominantly in in the third you have more law.
There's sometimes it's an area. We have loft buildings in
the first division that you don't necessarily have in the

(53:24):
in the third division. Both divisions obviously have high rise
office buildings, you know, tenements, uh, the bigger tenements in
the third division. You know, the very third division's response
area went from thirty fourth Street North two hundred and
twenty fifth Street and the first division was thirty fourth

(53:45):
Street south to you know, to Battery Park, right, so
you know, so you know, two great divisions. You know.
The thing about the third division was, you know, the
side I always said, you know, I mean a lot,
a lot of attention was in the third division, I

(54:07):
guess for offices. I get think a lot of a
lot of officers wanted to get to company officers wanted
to get to the companies in the eleventh and twelve
battalion because they caught part of Harlem, right, which is great.
I mean that great companies up there. They definitely did
the share fires. But in my experience when I was
in the third Division, the tenth Battalion went to as

(54:27):
many fires as the eleventh and the twelfth and this
and and good fires. I mean a lot of it
was most of it was you know, fire proof multiple dwellings,
but good you know, tough fires, you know, and you know,
and I think it's a lot of that was because
it was so heavily densely populated in the tenth battalion there,

(54:51):
and then when and then you get down into the
eighth battalion, night battalion, you got you know, times square obviously,
but you also have you know, the tran at Hubs,
Grand Central Station, Penn Station, which was really a first
division type of box, but you know, third division companies
would respond there as well. You have the challenges of

(55:13):
of the piers on the west side, you have uh,
you know just uh, you know, you know Madison Square Garden,
you know, so, I mean you just think about all
the you know, all the challenges that and every one
of these places had their you know, their own kind

(55:33):
of sop that you're not going to study or read
about in any of the books that you study because
they're so specific to the division. So when whether you're
in the first division or the third division, you know,
you'd have to go and get the book and read
you know what what is it? You know, what what's
the policy? What are the tactics for you know, the

(55:56):
say Penn Station, Grand Central, you know, everyone had a
different protocol. And then you're dealing with you know, different age,
You're dealing with Port authority, you're dealing with you know,
Metro North, you and you're getting to know who the
players are in those type of agencies. So that that's
kind of really what what makes Manhattan a different animal

(56:18):
from a chiefs perspective right than any other. The divisions
that that I worked in, and I did cover for
a while as a deputy chief, and I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed going doing a vacation in the Bronx, or
in Queens or at Staten Island. I covered. I worked
in every one of the divisions, which was a great
learning experience. But you know when you know, you know

(56:41):
when it came to it, you know the leadership of
the job, and you know Sally asked me to do something,
and you know I never said not to sal Casano,
and and you know he and he never stayed me wrong.
And and I'm glad and I had a great, great
career in the third Division. I thought I was going

(57:02):
to be there for my entire career. I said, I'll
be here for forty years. So and I said that
when I first got there, I might have still been
sitting there now give give this interview if I was.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Still there, But because I was gonna say, it's such
a you have everything there and no wonder so many
chiefs go through. It's such a great place to learn.
Not that other parts of the city don't give you
the same challenges and the same ability to really put
your thinking cap on as a fire officer. But given
the amount of landmarks, given the amount of high rises.
We talked earlier about the subways, there's everything there for

(57:37):
a chief, or any kind of officer for that matter,
but we'll just keep it specific too. Chief to learn study,
as you said, with those SOPs, learn how to deploy personnel.
You know, you lit up as you talked about it,
So I would imagine, I don't even have to ask.
You worked in a lot of great places. That has
to be, if I'm if I'm correct, the sweet spot
of your career.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Looking back, well, I spent a lot of time there,
so I was, I was. I started out there, you know,
I ended up back there as a as a deputy
and the division commander, and then eventually I work my
way back as as a borough commander as well for
a couple of years. But but yeah, you know, I

(58:20):
just it was really just it's a special place to work,
challenging if you really and you know, if you're really
into a challenge and making decisions and really and you know,
embracing you know, that's something different could happen on any

(58:43):
given tour that you come in and that you've never
seen before. That's the place for you.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah, yep, you know, familiarity sometimes, you know, in any
aspect of the fire surface or any aspect of emergency
response can breed complacency. There's still room for complacency in
the FD and Y. There's no room for complacency in
Division three, that is for sure. And again I really
enjoyed hearing you break that down. This question is relevant
the chat and will highlight it just from that time period. No,

(59:12):
I actually the other one I produced a victor from
Mike Thomas, the bottom one. The day of the tragic
Deutsche Bank fire in two thousand and seven. Were you
working that day? Chief?

Speaker 2 (59:23):
I was not. Actually on that day I was. I
was actually working. I was in on the incident management team,
and I was deployed to Idaho to a wildfire in Idaho,
So I was an operation sack chief there. I was

(59:43):
still in training, relatively new when that fire happened. But
then you know, actually I was out there with with
Bob Sweeney, who I believe at the time was the
Queensborough commander, and but they both flew us home or
early to get back to because that fire happened, so

(01:00:05):
I was I was not there myself at the Dorscha backfire.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
I thank you very much Mike for the question, and
we definitely don't forget the two members who were killed
that day hit the Light of Dude. They have remain
remembered for certain. So it blends together a little bit
different Burroughs, But your time as a borough commander two
thousand and eight to twenty twelve with Queens and then
back to Manhattan again from twenty twelve in twenty fourteen,
first as a deputy assistant chief, then as an assistant chief,

(01:00:34):
so you know, as your hommet along in this twenty
eleven and twenty twelve in particularly, it's interesting we get Irene.
Irene kind of nicked us in the tri State. It
was a tough storm, but it wasn't as bad as
people thought it would be. We were not so lucky
with Sandy. So around that time, I'm not sure which
burrow you were in when Sandy hit, but just tell
me about the prep work for that and then trying

(01:00:56):
to manage it as it made landfall.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Yeah, so I was actually the Manhattan borough commander for
Sandy twenty twelve, So I guess I must have been
there for a few months when I believe that was October, right, Yeah,
I think it was. I believe it was right around Halloween,
and so you know, we knew we knew the storm

(01:01:21):
was coming, right, So you know, you have the forecast
that it's coming up the coast and it looks like
it's going to make a significant hit in uh in
the New York City, the Tristate area. So you know,
the plan was already put out. These we already have
operations puts out an IAP, which is an insignet action

(01:01:43):
plan that you let you know what resources you have
for that for that potential event, and you know, you
put all those resources in place. They put all the
borough commands on duty through continuously, you know, through you know,
through the day, through the night. So we knew that

(01:02:04):
we were going to be there usually on on on
an overnight tour. On a normal day like today, you'll
have one city wide staff chief on duty that response
to the multiple alarms going on in the city. For
this particular event, all the staff were available, whether they

(01:02:24):
were in headquarters or the borough commanders were in their
respective boroughs. So you know, during the day we were
just you know, I was going to check out the
the the areas around Battery Park and you know, get
to see where the potential storm surge could be. Uh.
So we were riding around and just you know, waiting

(01:02:45):
for the you know, waiting for the you know, the
shoot fall if you would, waiting for waiting for the
storm to come in. It's uh and it came in,
you know, probably mid afternoon, and uh, you know, the
first major incident on that day was was in Manhattan

(01:03:07):
and it was the crane crane on fifty seventh Street
and we were had, you know, the boom was just
basically flopping in the wind. And right then I think
that the winds were not quite hurricane strength, probably tropical
storm strength winds, but still precarious. And next thing, you know,

(01:03:27):
you know, we're we're evacuating buildings on fifty seventh Street
because we have this I don't know how many tons
piece of the crane. You know, cranes, by the way,
are supposed to they're supposed to wind you know, window
or they're supposed to actually freely turn in the winds.

(01:03:50):
But for some reason that function didn't work and that's
why that boom snapped. So, but regardless, it was the
major concern on that was that the area had been
on fifty seventh Street beneath the hanging boom had a
high pressure gas, right, so we had all our agents,

(01:04:10):
We had kind of kind of steam, and we had
kind of gas, so high pressure steam, high high pressure gas.
If the boom fell from the seventy fifth story I
believe it was, and down and hit the street, it
would have ruptured the steam pipes would have rushed, which
would have in turn ruptured the gas gas lines, and

(01:04:32):
we would have a major explosion. So our challenge was, okay,
life always a priority. Evacuate that. We had transmitted multiple
alarms to evacuate the buildings. First on, you know, the
in the immediate area of the crane on fifty seventh Street.

(01:04:53):
Then we moved on and it was I believe it
was between sixth and seventh Avenue. So you know, it's
a it's a large block with a lot of buildings.
So you do the best you can with the companies
that you had. Uh. And then uh, I guess you know,
after it was sized up by the engineers that that

(01:05:14):
came from the building department. Uh, they said that there's
a possibility that if this thing keeps swaying around, it
could collapse. You know. You know, they gave us an
area of you know and whatever just say two to
three hundred feet laterally. So now we had to evacuate
the buildings on fifty eighth Street and fifty sixth Street.

(01:05:37):
So that took time. It took time. It took many hours.
It took it took a long time for the utilities.
And we don't shut down major utilities like that, like
a main, a gas mane where a steam maine is
beyond the purview of the FDM. Y. You have to
wait for the experts because you can cause us more
more damage than than than you you would potentially help

(01:06:01):
if you don't know what you're doing shutting it down.
So but it was a very pretty complicated operation for
those utility companies to get those those utilities shut down.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
And it took you know, the larger part of the
through the day, through the evening. The guy got back
to the burrow after midnight, and you know, by that time,
you know, the rest of the city was kind of
you know, in chaos. Breezing Point was burning down. You know,
we had uh, you know, storm surges in Staten Island,

(01:06:34):
little lying areas there, and that were we had losses
of life down there. Uh so, just just one of
those you know what they call them, one cent a centuary,
one cent a century storms, and so that's what that's
what we had dealing with. But you know, we we
had you know, we had the resources to deal with it.

(01:06:56):
We did the best we could, and you know, we
saved a lot of lives were saved that today we did.
You know, there were lives lost, for sure, but probably
by a lot of people who should have adhered to
the you know, the orders to evacuate, Yeah, chose to stay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
And I think the blueprint across the board, especially for
major cities changed after Katrina in two thousand and five.
And it's unfortunate, but New Orleans, because of the devastation
down there and all the critiques of how the emergency
response was handled in that particular storm, set the stage
four cities like New York and other major cities across
the country, maybe even the world for that matter, to

(01:07:34):
prep Okay, here's what went wrong down there. We can
anticipate that here, let's avoid it. And therefore, as you said,
we did have loss of life. We had loss of
life I believe here at Connecticut as well, but overall
it could have been so much worse, but wasn't because
of the effect of collaboration that took place at that time.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
Yeah, I think so. You know, we sent you ANIX
down to Katrina and they aftermath, not before, but it
went after, you know, to do you know, obviously, the
the the the topography of New Orleans is a little
bit different in New York City. Although New York City
is not much above sea level, but a lot of

(01:08:14):
New Orleans was low sea level, especially a lot of
the areas that were the most vulnerable with laws, you know,
with you know, people who you know were of lower
socioeconomic means, and you know, you know the whole story
behind behind that again that that was a function of

(01:08:34):
not not implementing their hurricane plans and having a civilian
population that that were left vulnerable for various reasons. Obviously,
you know, you we're not we're not going to read,
you know, rehash when we went wrong in Katrina. But

(01:08:56):
as far as the f D and Y is concerned,
we learned a lot by sending you know, some some
teams down there for search and rescue to about what
kind of devastation you know, water could do storm search.
And it just got reinforced for us in Sandy. And

(01:09:17):
I would venture to say, the next hurricane that hits
the New York City area, we're gonna you know, we'll know,
we'll have that institutional knowledge about what could happen, what
areas of the city the most vulnerable, How are we
going to prepare, how are we going to respond, how
are we going to recover? And and there's and there's

(01:09:40):
a lot. And there's the good thing about what we
do in the FDN Y is we document everything. So
you know, if if it happens twenty years from now
and nobody's still on a job that worked in twenty twelve,
that's well, guess what, that's okay because we already have
those plans.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
In place, so exactly, and even like I said earlier,
even though it was a lesser storm, in retrospect, you know,
Irene kind of refreshed a model. Okay, what did we
do the previous year for Irene? What can we kind
of implement from our response to Irene? Here maybe even
factors of that response played into the response to Sandy
that brings us into a year twenty nine of your career,

(01:10:20):
which at the time was your ascension and Chief of Operations.
And this is an interesting point too, before we get
the chief of department where you have a view of
the whole city by this point, with the exception of
the Bronx, really and then you covered there, I'm sure
as a chief a little bit, but not a permanent assignment.
You've had a full view of the city, Queen's Manhattan
and of course Brooklyn Chief of Operations, which you had

(01:10:44):
for five years. Take me through your day to day
because it doesn't always have to involve the major incidents
you'll respond to, just in terms of planning, just in
terms of communicating with the officers and just staff in
general under you. What was that time of your career.

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Like, yeah, so you know, twenty fourteen, Dan Nigros Fi Commissioner.
He asked me if I wanted to be you know,
Jimmy Esposito was the Chief Operations, he was going to
be retiring. He asked me if I wanted to lead operations,

(01:11:20):
and I was honored to be asked, and it was
really well, let me just say Chief Operations was the
most challenging and rewarding. I guess rank that I hadn't

(01:11:40):
in the FDN Y. I did it for four and
a half years, and I think that everything that I
learned as a borough commander and watching and learning from
the previous chiefs of operations from you know, I remember
when Saka Sano, even though it was not staff chief
at the time, Sakasana was the chief Operations for I

(01:12:04):
think over six years before it became Chief of Department,
and I just always remember it felt like Sal was
the Chief of Operations forever, and he was there for
a long time. But then after Sal you had Pat
McNally and Pat mcdowally's the chief Operations when I came
to staff. And then when Pat McNally retired, you know,

(01:12:28):
Bob Sweeney became the Chief of Operations, and I learned
a lot from Bob before and then he retired and
Jimmy Esposito, who I who I followed in Manhattan Borough Command,
went from Manhattanborough Command to Chief Operations, so I got
I got to see, you know, four or five chiefs

(01:12:48):
operate at that level. And I was on a regular
basis as a division commander, as a Borough commander, watching
these very experienced chiefs do with they do. So I
felt going into that that I felt like I was
really prepared for this position because I had all that
experience in the borough. And I was also you know,

(01:13:11):
I was also a staff chief for a good six years,
almost seven years at the time, so I was comfortable
being in staff. But you know, the chief operations is
such that you know, you run all the fire operations
and so all the everything you learned from from the firefighter,
through all your ranks from and all the ranks of

(01:13:32):
chief officer, and you try to bring that all to
the table. And also I felt like for me anyway,
the team that I had in operations, you know, had
you know, uh, you know, Jimmy Daly as assistant chief
of Operations, Tony David, Dan Donaue, Bob Strong. I mean,
these guys were they weren't just you know, my colleagues.

(01:13:55):
They were my friends. And we ran it and it
was like our own firehouse there. But we had we
were solving all the problems of the job. And and
and I used to go and I used to say,
you know what, the issue that we're going to deal
with tomorrow is happening, right now today. And that's the
type of job it was, so you you had you
had to deal with things as as they came on

(01:14:18):
a day to day basis. But it also gave us
an opportunity to to do some things and change some
things you know that you know, whether it's you know,
some procedurally or or tactically that we always felt, you know,

(01:14:40):
could make the job safer, more efficient, you know. So
I'll give you an example. You know, we were always
struggling as a department to try to get the department
to comply with the incident command system and sectoring and
and terminology and things like that. So one of our

(01:15:04):
one of our goals, as you know, as new in
that in that bureau, you know, min me and my
team was to you know, come up with a new
bulletin that addressed that final and we came up with
a bulletin for command and control and that was you know,
based off of a bulletin that we all studied when

(01:15:26):
we were coming up through you know, for chief officer
through the ranks called Division Circular thirty six. And it
was just a division circular, but there was so much
in it that made sense about the responsibilities of chief
officers and how they were responsible for this, you know,
primarily for the safety of the firefighters that are you know,
under the purview, whether if they're in charge of a sector,

(01:15:47):
you know, or a group or whatever it was. We
wanted to try to formalize that and we did, you know,
we had you know, Tommy Richardson got promoted to deputy
chief and he worked on that bulletin for us, you know,
as a brand new deputy chief and did great work
with it, you know, including going out and speaking to
a lot of chiefs out in the field, and that
helped shape that bulletin. But I guess what I'm saying

(01:16:09):
is with that, at the end of the day, I
think what we did was we did a service for
the department and hopefully that continues going forward, where we
made more defined the chiefs job as being more aware,
more more in tune with the units that come under

(01:16:29):
their command. And so I think that that was one
of the things that we did in operations. Another thing
that we did in operations was we went from our
building inspection program, you know, we went we developed a
a b ISP program or we changed it to be

(01:16:50):
more risk based because we found that our companies now
were doing you know, we're doing a company like two
ninety engine okay right now that I think last year
they did seven five hundred runs, right, so that's that
is you know, that's twenty one runs on a twenty four.

(01:17:12):
So sometimes they're doing ten, sometimes they're doing thirty. Okay. Now,
you know, building inspection still has to get done. It's important.
And why is it important Because it's important for the
safety of those firefighters and the civilians, but primarily for
the firefighters. They have to get into these buildings. And
so how we found that the companies that were getting

(01:17:34):
crushed with runs, and a lot of them are a
lot of the midtown companies, were you know, how are
we going to be able to get them to if
they're building inspection period is two times a week, once
in the morning and once in the afternoon, and they're
getting crushed with runs during those two days, which they
most likely are, they can go weeks without actually doing

(01:17:57):
a significant amount of building inspection, and we needed to
try to address that. So what we did was we
try to base it and let them try to get
a certain amount of buildings done on the time that
they were able to do it. Anytime during the week.
So if you're going to go out at ten o'clock
in the morning, go for the meal, you know, go
into this building, you know. And there was a little

(01:18:19):
negotiating with the unions. You know, they were a little
concerned about that, but they understood and they worked with us,
and we went from a pilot program for you know,
risk based inspections. We we got a chief from the
thirteenth Division, gend the Toronto, who was the architect of

(01:18:40):
our BISP program, and we brought him in and he
kind of worked with the logistics of it, if you will,
and we had a new BISP program so as you know,
as a chief of operations that we were able and
myself and the chiefs that I mentioned were able to

(01:19:01):
implement these parts of or institutionalize or make changes too
existing procedures that we had and make it better.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
And I would say you did too. And that's something
that you know, you'd hate to find out that a
building is in violation or there's a major safety hazard
when fire is rolling over your head. You know, it's
better to find that out when you're doing the building inspection.
And I know it could be a pain sometimes for
certain companies and I get it. But at the same time,
to your point safety safety safety, you minimize the risk

(01:19:33):
of firefighters, you minimize the risk of civilians. And if
there's potential nefarious behavior of the part of these landlords
or whoever's in charge in building, hey, you know you
can alert that to the proper authorities, mainly the NYPD
and boom, you may have saved somebody's life, if not
your own, right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
Well, I mean all you have to do, and you
know this is you look back at some of the
fatal fires that we had and many times that they
were the result out of you know, something a parliament
was chopped up, or something that was not right with
a particular building that if we could have addressed it beforehand,

(01:20:10):
you know, maybe they outcome would have been different. Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:20:13):
One hundred and ten percent. Before I get the chief
of department. You know, there was a couple of incidents
that really tested the foundation of FD and Y operations
certain time just because and the FT and Y responded well,
but just because of the complexity and how scary it was.
I mean, we had the explosion in the East Village
in twenty fifteen where a gas tank I believe ruptured
and a couple people were killed in that. There was

(01:20:35):
the attempted bombing of the subway of Manhattan in twenty seventeen,
where thankfully that individual was one of the three stooges
of terrorism, was terrible at his job. But then we
had the bike attack too that same year along the
West Side Highway. So as far as the FD and
Y response to that, take me through trying to manage
those incidents when it's chaos at these scenes, so much

(01:20:55):
is happening all at once.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Yeah, So, I mean you can go on and on,
and you could talk about the you know, the airplane
and the Hudson, you know, with Sully. I mean, that's
that's just another example, and you know there's other we have.
You know, we've had very incidents and you know, these
are multi casualty incidents that that that are very challenging

(01:21:18):
because of because of the areas that they occur in
the amount of people that that are impacted by it.
Many of them are whether they're you know, you know
many civilians that need to be treated and transported right

(01:21:39):
regardless of the of the the nature of the injuries.
Some of them are serious. Some of them aren't patient.
Tracking becomes an issue, you know when you have just say,
you know, with with the with the plane and the
Hudson you know, we have people that were you know,

(01:22:01):
we we knew we had a mat wall and a
passenger manifest, we knew how many people were on board, right,
and we had to account for all those people. But
some of them were taken to New Jersey and taking
the hospitals there, and you know, some of them came
to the New York City side. So it took it
takes time. It takes time to hash all that out

(01:22:23):
and figure out if you know, did every one of
those people actually make it or are we going to
be looking in the Hudson River for days for for
for victims. Uh So all that has to be coordinated.
Fortunately for us, I think we're we're pretty We've we've
gotten we've gotten good at even though each one of

(01:22:45):
those incidents that you mentioned and the one that I
gave an example of, are different. I think that I
think that in essence, you know, when when you get
the response of uh that we home with, you know
that other departments probably don't have the luxury of we
come with a lot of experience coming from whether the fire,

(01:23:08):
it comes from the fire side of the equation, the
in that side of the equation, we get together at
the command post. Sometimes it's with help of our partners,
an NYPD or or Port Authority or other agencies that
come together and you know, we're working together to try
to solve this problem. A lot of times it's you know, obviously,

(01:23:31):
you know, you have the politicians that get involved. The
mayor wants to know what's going on and wants accurate information,
and you know, sometimes that information is not as expedient
or for what's coming as what what that person wants,
and you really have to, you know, let let the
stakeholders know. In this case, the mayor know that you know,

(01:23:55):
this is what we have so far, this is what
we're looking to find out, and it may take some
time to get there. And I think that's the challenging
part of some of the incidents that you know that
you were talking about then that I just mentioned, is
getting that information back because everything when whether you're talking,

(01:24:17):
and especially in Manhattan, you know, it's if it's if
it's not on, if it's not being reported live, it's
going to be on. You know, the twelve o'clock news
at noon, or the five o'clock news, or the six
o'clock news or eleven o'clock news. They want to know
what's going on, and that's that's a challenge sometimes, but
you have to know how to message it properly.

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
Oh look at the other day. A perfect example, unfortunately,
is the rampage that occurred in Midtown at the office
building last week. You know, that was a situation where
a lot of the personnel, emergency personnel are converging on
the scene at once. In addition to how the media
is getting there in their stage and they're setting up
trying to, as you said, get whatever type of information

(01:24:58):
they can. It's a to manage. So I'm sure you
know you were having flashbacks different incidents of your own
watching Adam fol last week.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I guess sometimes it's
you know, every every time you hear it, you just
you know, you shake your head. But this is, you know,
it's it's not the first, certainly not going to be
a last. You know, New York City is as you
know is is a unique place and we you know,

(01:25:28):
what happens in New York and it doesn't make local
news it makes national news, it makes it makes news
across the world. So you know, you know, I think
that you know, that's understandable because it is New York.
But that's something as as you go, you know, and

(01:25:49):
that's something I learned as a borough commander, a staff
chief that you know, the chief operations and you know,
I'm sure my predecessor has learned saying the commission is
no commissioner. You know, commissioner, commission and nigro. You know
those guys commission to talker. Now they know that comes

(01:26:11):
with the territory and it's New York. So those are
the challenges and that's why, you know, that's why we
do what we do.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
You make lieutenant in nineteen ninety four, a quarter century later,
you make chief of department. That's another great full circle
moment for you where it's not just one thing to
be achieved, that's an accomplishment in and of itself. Or
from captain of battalion chief now you're truly overseeing everything
as the highest ranking uniform member of the service. You
have a lot of work to do. There's more challenges ahead.

(01:26:42):
We'll get to managing COVID in twenty twenty momentarily, but
just to kind of take a second when you got
word that you were going to be the next chief
of department, just take me through thinking about that journey
from being a proby in nineteen eighty five Chief Done
visiting quarters encouraging you to take a lieutenantcy zam As
as a young firefighter back then to that moment. What

(01:27:03):
was that like emotionally for you?

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I was blessed. It's an honor
of a lifetime. And I can't there's not enough time
on your program for me to tell you how much
it meant to me to get to that point for me,
my family, just everything that uh that happened in my

(01:27:31):
career to reach the pinnacle of the you know, the
greatest fire department in in the in the world, and
and following the footsteps of you know, of some you know,
people like Pea Gancy. I mean, it's just it's you know,
it was just surreal. But you know that said, I

(01:27:55):
embraced it. I had decided that when when I came
to the department that I understood a lot about what
the job entailed. I was a staff chief for you know,
twelve years before you know, I became chief of department,
or or thirteen or maybe eleven years before it came

(01:28:17):
the chief department, and so I knew what the what
the rank entailed, and there's different ways that you could
you could you could hold that rank and how you
conduct yourself. You know, I looked at people and I
saw how you know, Eddie Kilduff was, you know, ran

(01:28:42):
the department, and I always admired him. I always admired
the way he you know, he conducted himself among the staff,
the way he conducted himself in public, you know, the
way he was the face of the department. I mean
that always was in a Russian great He left a
great impression upon me, as the same thing that was

(01:29:06):
with you know, Sal Cassana or even Pete Hayden. I mean,
these guys all showed leadership in a lot of the
same ways, but and sometimes in some different ways too.
You know. When I got to be the chief, I
you know, I had a great team, you know, personally
talking to my Chief Operations, Tom Richardson, and you know,

(01:29:30):
I mean I was I was the chief Operations for
four and a half years. So I know that operations
runs the department, right, they run the department. You know,
it's and I. You know, when I and Tom and
I got promoted on the same day, him to operations,
I got promoted to chief department and we were very close.

(01:29:50):
We worked like you know, I was downstairs with him
every day, you know, at one point or another, and
you know, he was always behind his desk, typing away
and doing something like the chief of operations does, the
busiest guy in the fire apartment. But I know exactly
what he was going through. But you know, we we
I think we did a lot of really good business together.

(01:30:13):
And you know, and his team, his entire team, his
his team in operations, top top notch people, and you know,
going from you know, Richie Blatis and Jack Hodgens, who
obviously became chief of department. And I remember when Jack
came on to staff, and you know, I recruited him
and I'm glad that, you know, I was. He thought

(01:30:36):
about it for a few days, but he said yes,
and I'm glad he did. And I was glad to
see it was like it was one of my proudest moments.
Was I was already on my way out of the job.
But you know, when Jack became chief department I was
there for the for his promotion and it was it
was a special day for him. It was specially for me,
so that the team was there. You know, I had

(01:30:59):
a great chief of five Prevention, great chief of training,
Tony DeVito when I was a chief of department. I mean,
these are just you know, top not Joe Jardan is
the Chief of five Prevention. You know, Lillian Bonsigno is
the chief of MS. These are highly qualified people. You know,
So what did I have to do as far as

(01:31:20):
just make sure that if there's anything that they need,
you know, I meet I've met and met with my
bureau heads on a regular basis, whether it was you know,
once or twice a month, and they ran their bureaus
and and I ran the department. If there's anything they needed,
I helped out. And so and you know, there was

(01:31:42):
a lot of ceremonial events that go along being the
chief of department, which are very very rewarding. That's part
of the tradition of the department. So you know both
you know, the happy and the said and and then
the responses. You know, I was a big advocate for myself,
was like i' go on, I'm required to go on

(01:32:05):
a fifth long. And you know, if I knew when
a fourth alump came in, I was on the phone
with Tom and he said, I'm already going in. I said, okay,
let me know, and he'd give me, you know, a
heads up that you know what was going on with
the fire. And you know, if he knew it was
going to go to a fifth, he called me up

(01:32:26):
and said, listen, John, it's going to go to a fifth.
I think you should start heading No. Ten to four.
And then I'd go. And you know, Tom Richardson had,
you know, forty years on the job. You know he's
going to put out any fire that I could put out.
Didn't mean I don't know how to go to the fires.
I mean I enjoyed from the first fire that I
explained to you right that I went to as a

(01:32:49):
young probi in twenty three engine that feeling that you
get when you go to your first fire, It never
leaves you, you know, from till the time you leave
the job. You know, you get you have the same
feeling whether you're standing out front of the building out
of fifth along as the chief of department, when you
leave and you get in the car and go home.
All right, there's a feeling that comes over you. If

(01:33:10):
I could bottle up that feeling and sell it, I'd
be rich, you know, So that is you know, that
was to me. It was the it was really the
pinnacle of and obviously for obvious reasons, it was an
honor of a lifetime to be the chief department chief.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
You know, I'm going to go back, hopefully in a
couple of years, when I've gotten on the line somewhere,
I'm going to come back to this interview. I'm going
to come back to that moment where you just explained it.
And if I if I want to go to my
first box someday, I'm gonna remember what we talked about
because a lot of guys have said the same thing.
And I'm not just saying this because you're sitting in
front of me. I don't think anybody's ever summarized as

(01:33:53):
well as you just did I And it means it
meant a lot as it is it is, but it
beads a lot, especially now as I'm trying to get
my own career. So thank you for summarizing that, because
you're right, you know, every guy I talked to and
now it's not to say you're happy to see somebody's
house burned down. We're not saying that, but just being
able to go there, put the fire out, half a
hand and making the situation better. There's not a soul
I've talked to involved in the fire service. It doesn't

(01:34:14):
feel the same way.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Yeah, it's that's that's what we do, and that that
didn't start in my generation. That goes back.

Speaker 1 (01:34:26):
It's always been there.

Speaker 2 (01:34:27):
It goes back in our deployment to eighteen sixty five. Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
And just briefly touching on it too. Having a team
like that around you was so helpful obviously in the
next year twenty twenty, because that was an invisible bullet.
You know, at least with previous incidents, there's a site
where the incident occurred, you have an idea of what's there,
what's not there, and how to manage it. This was different,
and it was prolonged. It went on for quite a while,

(01:34:54):
so especially the chief of vms EMS was overrun at
that time with different calls they had to respond to.
So having you know, being in the trenches with individuals
like that, I mean, obviously we wish the pandemic didn't happen,
but again made easier by having such qualified people around
you to help lead you or help you help lead
them rather and of course offer input to each other
how to manage a crisis that we have never seen

(01:35:15):
before in this century.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
Yeah, so I remember, you know, I remember exactly a
conversation that I had with with Commissioner Igro. It was
early in the morning. He said, you know, he was
just on the on the phone with people he knew
he was. He used to take his trips to Italy

(01:35:39):
quite frequently when he was retired the first time, and
he had a lot of friends in early and he
said he spoke to people there and he said, this
this virus, that's a pandemic that's going through and you
know it's it's it's pretty pretty bad, and you know

(01:36:01):
it's going to eventually work its way over to us.
It's it's already a given. And that's the first I
heard of It was from him. And when he was saying,
I just couldn't contemplate what what what are we talking
about here? You know, when it came to just say
viruses or you know, we were trained in or prepared

(01:36:22):
to respond to, you know, some bio like bioterrorism attacks
like an anthrax white powder type of incident. But you know,
I think nowhere in the conversation that that we were
having at the time was a was a global pandemic,
But that's what we were head for. And yeah, and
then from from then on and then when it hit us, right,

(01:36:45):
I guess it was right before Saint Patrick's day. Yes,
when when you know when when it when it hit
and then the rest is history. We know what happened.
But but yeah, that was you know, it was challenging.
I mean, you know, a lot of it was from

(01:37:06):
the way we were thinking and again you know, talking
with you know, the Chief of MS, the Chief Operations,
with the fire commissioner, and you know a lot of
the senior chiefs, and you know, it was all geared
around what is going to be our capability to continue
to respond and staff our department if this global pandemic,

(01:37:34):
you know, impacts our staffing levels. That was I think
the overarching concern from the get go, like what happens
if we if if fifty of our department is sick
and can't respond, how are we going to what are
we going to do? Because we can't go and say Okay, well,

(01:37:56):
just you know, call up New Jersey City. We'll call
up you know, some deput you know Yonkers and ask
for you know, their help and respond because they're going
to be having the same issues. Right. So so that
was the overarching concern that and you know, how do

(01:38:16):
we limit our exposure so we can maintain the staff
and levels that we need, right, So we had to
start thinking. Okay, PPE was huge, right, so you know,
the recommendation at the time was you know masks, you know,
actually was respirators and ninety fives. You know, how many
do we have, how many do we need? How many

(01:38:37):
can we get? You know, that was an issue the
you know, what does our response going I mean, if
we if our responses are going through and even the
way we responded, you know, I mean eventually, you know,
we would get a little bit of a heads up
where the call would come in as fever, cough or

(01:38:58):
something like that. So this way we knew that if
it came in as a fever, there's a good chance
that this is a COVID patient, right, so we knew
Ppe I had to put that in, you know, take
that into consideration. Unfortunately, early on the first couple of
weeks when the pandemic was at its peak, a lot

(01:39:18):
of the victims, the patients that we you know, that
we responded to, had already passed, you know, so you
would do you know, you would if the patient was
viable and it was within the ability to work on
the patient, and then you know, transport that's what we did.

(01:39:39):
But there was a percentage of patients that were not viable,
you know that for obvious mortal injury, a lot of
it from the from the disease, and so you want
in that case, you want to limit your exposure, so
you don't want an impact or infect you know, some response.
So there was there was a lot of challenges, a
lot of a lot of of you know, one day

(01:40:03):
to the next, learning from the day before, planning for
the next day. You know, our medical le rates were
always you know, we were watching, you know, whether and
we have have to have a continuency of changing the
chart perhaps you know, going to an A B chart
if it was necessary, or a B C you know,
depending on our level of medical lead. And and that's

(01:40:26):
that was the beauty of having you know, this the
experience that we had in in Bureau of operations and
the Bureau of the MS Operations. Having that experience you
bring to the table when you have something that nobody's
ever experienced. But you know, guess what we learned on
nine to eleven that you know, we when we went

(01:40:47):
to an A B chart, you know, after nine to eleven,
we knew how to implement it. So so there's you know,
there's institutional knowledge that you have that you could apply
from you know, in that case, in this case to
the pandemic. But certainly, you know, it was long. It

(01:41:08):
was we were you know, we I remember having conversations
we couldn't wait to get the vaccine, right, it was
we wanted the vaccine. We wanted the vaccine. You know,
we wanted to get it out. The vaccine was going
to be our savior. And then when we got the vaccine,
you know, there were the issues of well what if

(01:41:29):
some people don't want to take the vaccine? You know,
you know, and you know, unfortunately for the Tom he
was I was on my way out, he was you know,
he was acting the chief of department when he had
to deal with some of those those issues, and unfortunately,
you know, it got a little bit political, It got

(01:41:50):
a little bit ugly and but but ultimately I think
that you know, our department again during during that period
of time, as we always do, we rose to the top,
ye flyer and EMS, I think, you know, as far
as the darkest days for EMS, I would say that
was among their proudest days the Bureau of MS since

(01:42:14):
our merger. I would say that if you talk to
the senior EMS chiefs now and even the ones that
are retired, and you probably had some of them on
your show, they would say they would talk about what
their challenges were and they I guarantee they said that
that was their proudest moment and their history, or among

(01:42:37):
the most proud moments in their history, was during the pandemic.
As tragic as it was.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
Yeah, well, it reminds me that that line from a
tail of two cities. It was the best of times.
It was the worst times.

Speaker 2 (01:42:47):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
Would you ever want to go through something like that again? No,
But at the same time you saw the best rise
to the occasion, as you said, and lead the charge
forward to you know, of course, keep people as safe
as they possibly could, mitigate the medical emergen season. A
lot was learned from that. That's that you know, I'll
get to your retirement now. It took a lot out
of everybody, you know, it took a lot out of everybody,

(01:43:09):
And much like you saw in two thousand and two,
after nine to eleven, a lot of guys and gals
put in their papers, same thing twenty twenty into twenty
twenty one, twenty twenty two. When you left in twenty
twenty three, was it primarily because of that and how
much it took out you or were you thinking about
it anyway even without the pandemic?

Speaker 2 (01:43:29):
Uh no, I honestly, the pandemic had had nothing to
do with with my retirement. It was I wouldn't even
say it was planned. It was. It was a confluence
of reasons, personal reasons. You know, there was I you know,

(01:43:54):
I think that you know, ultimately, my goal was to
get to four years with the department. That was always
my goal. I thought, like, I'm I turned sixty three
years old today, so and I always thought that I
would still be on the job at sixty three years
old because I came on when I was twenty three.

(01:44:17):
So if my if my plan went accordingly, I'd still
be I'd still be working. And I know people doing
one of my best friends who is I grew up
with him. He's the senior man who in latter went away.
I'm going to give him a shout out, Gerald Brickman.
He's as him and his brother were, you know, brother

(01:44:37):
Steve who passed away, who worked in fifty at engine
was two of the toughest guys that I ever met,
hands down, all right, So and I grew up with
these guys. He's sixty four and a half. But I
spoke with him today and and he's you know, he's
in the time now. But I spoke to him last year.
He was climbing off an area ladder up went away

(01:44:59):
and going into to a fire on the top four
and he was so you know, you know, it's different
for obviously in my position I was, I was the
chief of department. So but you know, there were there
were a lot of reasons Mike that and I would
say that primarily was was family. I mean, it's I

(01:45:22):
think I over the years I made I sacrificed some
family time for for the benefit of the department. Which
but and don't get me wrong, there was not I've
never missed anything that you know that said, you know,
there were some things that I think, you know, I

(01:45:45):
didn't want to miss going forward with my family. And
you know, you know, in particular, I had a young daughter.
She just graduated college. She was just getting into college
around the time. She's doing great, she's you know, she's
a very bright kid, takes after her mom, and so
she I wanted to spend more time seeing her continue

(01:46:09):
to develop. And you know, that was primary. There was
some other you know, but and I think that as
far as what if I made the right decision to
leave too soon. I mean, if you can't on how
many sleepless nights I have had second guessing myself whether

(01:46:29):
I left too soon. You know, maybe I did, But
but I did what I did. I you know, maybe
I thought that it would have been a role for
me in the future, you know, outside of the chief
of department. At one time. I think, you know, things,
you know, things have a way of working one way

(01:46:51):
or another. But especially since you know, I felt like
I had so much experience and so much time and
some dedication to the department, it's hard to leave, yeah,
but but you know, we're living with it. I'm getting hanged,
getting in the hang of retirement's it's it doesn't suck

(01:47:14):
as they say. You know, it's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:47:16):
You know you deserve it. I mean, you worked hard
for those You worked your butt off for those thirty
eight years, and there's a lot to be proud of,
a lot of memories you made, and a lot of
bonds that will last your lifetime. You know, guys, you
work twenty three with every step of your career towards
the end, you made bonds that will last a lifetime,
which has been a common theme in our conversation tonight.
So you know, even with those sleepless nights, I'm sure

(01:47:36):
there's a lot of days where you find yourself sitting
in that same chair you're sitting in right now, probably
smiling thinking back to something on the job that was
awesome that you got the experience.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
Yeah, I mean, it's all I have to do is
you know, read the department orders or talk like I said,
talk to some of my old buddies, go to go
to our reunion, or go to an outing, play around
the golf with some of the guys, and and you're

(01:48:08):
right back in it. You know, there's the best part
about it. And without the you know, listen, you know
those jobs, you know has when you get higher up,
and just like I'm sure it's the same way in
n Y p D. Probably more so, probably on steroids.
When you get to those these levels, the stress, you know,

(01:48:32):
the stress as in the politics have a way of
weighing on you.

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
So yep, yep, Well that brings us into the rapid
fire five hit run questions for me, as we always
end with five hit run answers to me, you could
say pass if you want, And the first one is
we talked about it, so I kind of think I
know what your answer is gonna be, but I want
to ask. Anyway, time machines were real, and you can
go back in time to any part of your career.

(01:48:59):
You talk about how much you love being a deputy Manhattan.
You talked about how much you enjoyed twenty three and
obviously to thirty five. Where are you going back to
tomorrow time machines existed.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
Oh gosh, yeah, I'm timpted to pass on that one
because but I would.

Speaker 1 (01:49:14):
Okay, so you can pass if you want.

Speaker 2 (01:49:17):
No, no way, So twenty three engine around the holidays,
you know, I've been sitting around the kitchen table, you know,
just go back to that two thirty five, you know,
going to the going to the fires you know some

(01:49:42):
of the some of the guys who and then both
those firehouses, those guys were, they were, you know, close friends.
They were in my wedding, you know, came to my
wedding when I got married. So my wife is friends
with them, friends with their wives. I would go, you know,
go back in a second to ninety. Uh. You know,

(01:50:04):
I wish I could go back to spend more time there.
You know, I just re My regret was I didn't
spend enough time there. But you know, still see those guys.
You know, love those guys. Shout out to Joe Baizel.
He runs a great uh great reunion twice a year
for the guys on Sheffield Avenue, and uh, you know

(01:50:25):
I love it there. So any one of those places
in Manhattan or Brooklyn, I would I wish I could
go back.

Speaker 1 (01:50:35):
Listen, not a bad place to go back to. You know,
I know you mentioned chief done earlier. Besides him, who's
another chief, you would say? Or even it could be
a captain or lieutenant any point that you really looked
up too early on.

Speaker 2 (01:50:47):
Yeah, so early on in my career I did. There's
a couple and you know, and I don't want to
leave anybody out, but when when I was, when I
was in twenty three, I got the opportunity to uh
to drive one day o Grasso and he was the
chief in the ninth Battalion. He was the captain of
Ford Truck. His nickname was the high Rise Drifter, and

(01:51:08):
he had he had this real humble, quiet way about
him that I really appreciated. And like I just I
remember the tour. I drove him in the battalion like
it was yesterday it was, and we ran to Actually
he ended up going to a good flyer right next
to the fire ass too, you know, right next to

(01:51:30):
a fifty four and four or second long another one, uh,
Dennis Cross and bat five to seven and uh, you know,
all the chiefs in the five seven are great and
one of the best parts about two thirty five is
he got to learn from every one of those chiefs.
But you know, Dennis was just very similar to Joe Grasse.

(01:51:50):
So I think, actually I think they might have worked
together in Brooklyn at one point in time on Dean
Street perhaps, But but just a you know, when you
when you look at the chief and you say this
is who you know you kind of you know, want
to emulate and having that type of that personality. You know,

(01:52:10):
Dennis was one and you know this obviously, you know,
you know, he was killed on nine to eleven along
with you know, you know, just as as fate would
have it, he was with Timmy Stackpolet and I saw
them both when they came up to the command post,
and you know, I couldn't figure out why they were together,
but you know, it's another story for another time. And

(01:52:33):
then you know, later a little bit later in my career, Mike,
I mean I looked when I was down in headquarters obviously,
you know I and even before headquarters, I kind of
get to know Chief Guancy a little bit. You know,
when I was in two thirty five, he was a
chief in the five seven. Obviously he was gone when
I was there, but but I didn't know him. He
used to come back to the functions, you know, you know,

(01:52:54):
Chief Guancy was was great like that. He'd come back
to somebody's you know, birthday party, and he knew who
I was, and you know, we chatted a little bit,
so I got to know him. And then when I
did my detail down the headquarters as captain, I got
to know him a little bit more. You know, Dan Nigro,
you know, I got to know him when I was
on that detail as well. And you know, but uh,

(01:53:19):
you know other chiefs down there at headquart as Joe Callan,
you know, was was ilways remembered Joe as teaching fire
attack and he was just had you know, I really
enjoyed going to his classes. And you know, so you
know these are you know, senior chiefs that you know,
staft chiefs at the time, and I was a young
captain who you know, I think I took a liking

(01:53:42):
to obviously, you know, they you know, they had stars
on the collar. But I think they at the same
I think they they saw something in me. And and
then last but night lay South Casano. So and I
mentioned this before, you know, one of the true you know,

(01:54:03):
I truly, I would say legendary people in this department
for many reasons, and a lot of it has to
do with nine to eleven and his his dedication, his
commitment and his service after nine to eleven is chief operations,

(01:54:23):
chief of department for a commissioner. But that said, you know,
I never met anybody and this is all ranks who
knew everybody, and he met you once, he knew who
you were and always remembered. I remember, you know, I
was a lieutenant in two thirty five and he was
in the fifteenth Division and we were by the command

(01:54:45):
post at a fifteenth division box at a multiple alarm
and I go up to the command post supported to
him and it'd say, yeah, John, do me a favor,
you know, take a line into whatever exposure. And I
was like, wow, I said, I don't even think I
haven't met him if I met him and met him once,
but he knew my name and and that wasn't just me.

(01:55:08):
He knew everybody. And that's the quality that to me,
and it's it's I wish I had, I wish I
was more like him in that sense that uh, just
just amazing. And you know, obviously what he's done after
his after leaving this department, he continues to do to advocate.

(01:55:30):
I just you know, I watched a podcast and he's
involved with the nine to eleven More Museum, you know,
a couple of towers. He's a board member. He's a
board member for the FDN y I Foundation. Just you know,
I mean these you know these are the you know
the names that I just mentioned. These are you know,

(01:55:51):
great people, just great, dedicated.

Speaker 1 (01:55:54):
And they molded you. And they definitely molded you. For
I continue with the rapid Fire. I don't know if
he crossed paths with him at all. He was on
the Sho Show last week. He was an assistant chief VMSS.
Jerry Gombo senses regardless as thank you for your service
and Julie H.

Speaker 2 (01:56:05):
Yeah, I remember, Jared, Yeah, thank you, Jerry. I appreciate it.
Thank you good man.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):
Jerry again, if you want to, for those of you
who missed his episode, go check it out. We had
a lot of fun conversating last week. Third question of
the rabid Fire. Most uplifting call you ever had.

Speaker 2 (01:56:17):
In your career? Okay, so you know it wasn't really
actually it wasn't a call. It was actually for me,
the most uplifting day was the day Timmy Stockpole came
back full duty. I was working that day in tun

(01:56:39):
ninety when he came back and worked his first tour
when he came back from full duty after his injuries
at the Atlantica Avenue fire. And it was a big
thing because the commissioner was there Commission of Lesen came
and it was a big media thing, but you know,
I got to know to me pretty well. We got
promoted to lieutenant together and we became friends ever since.
And and when I got the opportunity to work with

(01:57:03):
him when I got to Sheffield Avenue, you know, just
you know, talking on hours just and his nickname was
you know, jobs, right, so he said, you know, you
know why they call me jobs, And it's like because
I like to go to jobs and I work. I
work a ton of part time jobs because he had

(01:57:24):
a big family, so he was always always working a
side job. But you know, the guys loved him because
he was you know, he was Timmy. I mean he
could you know, that's he's a legend. But that tour
I'll never forget that tour when he came back and
you know, in many ways, you know, I mean, Timmy

(01:57:45):
wouldn't have any other way. So obviously if he didn't
come back, he would still be here.

Speaker 1 (01:57:49):
But you know, but if there's ever a definition of
the warrior, you know, tim Stackpole was it. That's that's
a story that you know, he even though we unfortunately
lost him at the Trade Center on nine to eleven.
Just the courage shown to get packed from that when
that would have ended anybody else's career speaks to the

(01:58:10):
level of heart and guts that Tim stack Bull had
so much. So we're still talking about it almost thirty
years later, and we'll never stop.

Speaker 2 (01:58:17):
You know, he wasn't going to take no for an answer.
You know, he was going he was coming back. I
remember he was doing he was doing light duty down
at the at the medical office, doing doing fit tests
on masks, and I remember going down there one day
He's like, I'm coming back. And you know, if everybody
knew the extent of his injuries, you know they but

(01:58:39):
you know, he he came back. And you know it's
just the testament too, the epitome of what it's of
a lot of things, but courage, bravery, dedication, you know
you name that's to me Stackbull.

Speaker 1 (01:58:56):
Yep, Tim stack Bull, We remember you, my friend. Fourth
question of the apid fire, one value every new officer
should live by.

Speaker 2 (01:59:06):
Yeah, so you know, and I know that it's it's
probably a recurring theme, but mine is mine. When I
was a chief operator, chief Department, I go around saying,
is that on every time you put on the uniform,
you have an opportunity to show leadership. So whether it's

(01:59:29):
you know, in the kitchen, how to drill on building inspection,
had a fire wolf duty, whatever it is. You know,
people are looking up to you. You know, as a
as a new officer. You know you're not no longer
one of the guys. You know, our department is no
different than the military, or you know they're that they

(01:59:55):
you know, they like to be led. The men like
to be led. It's your job to lead. Every time
you put on a uniform, you have an opportunity to
show leadership. So make sure they don't forget that.

Speaker 1 (02:00:06):
Awesome and of course fits and finally, of the of
the rapid fire. What you missed most about the job
you talked about it earlier, but you can expand here.

Speaker 2 (02:00:15):
Yeah, so I would say in one word, camaraderie. I
I think that when I got on the job, and uh,
and I told you a little bit about it. In
the beginning, I was I was not happy in the
in the world of of cubicles and and and high

(02:00:39):
finance of Wall Street. When I got to the fire department,
I realized how how important friendships are and and the
type of work that we do just build build upon,
you know, that sense of camaraderie, of trust, of of support,

(02:01:00):
and you know that's evident through our department. You could
see it. And from our happiest days to to our
darkest days, all those things, you know, get you through it.
I remember there was a guy who I went to
high school with and we actually went to the same college.
And he was very successful as and worked in Wall Street,

(02:01:24):
made a lot of money, you know, and and retired
actually before I did. And he they honored me at
our high school at a five K run when I
was chief of department, and I got talking to him
and he just couldn't have enough great things to say
about the FDN Y. And in my high school we

(02:01:46):
had Timmy Stockpolt went to my high school, Saint Francis
Prep in the Fresh Meadows, So so there were a
handful of of of of alumni of Saint Francis that
got killed on nine to eleven in the fire department.
Otherwise and YPD some civilian, but he was so impressed
about It's almost like I felt like if he had

(02:02:09):
to do it over again, he would have chosen a
different path. And so coming from a civilian who was
very successful. That said a lot to me. But you know,
I've seen other people make that transition. You know. I
watched the a little bit of you know, getting salty

(02:02:30):
with with about Pete Yancy and I heard, you know,
Chris Gancy talk about it, and he was in a
similar uh situation, very accomplished IVY league grad. You know,
m b A you know, probably would have been making
substantial lia uh sums of money, a lot more than

(02:02:53):
he's making now. But you know, he obviously was. And
he said the best gift that he know, you know,
that he ever had was coming on on the on
the fire department. So you know, so that's that's that's
that's the long answer to saying it's it's all about

(02:03:14):
it's all about the people.

Speaker 1 (02:03:16):
Yep, it's the greatest job. I wrote a column recently.
It's it's the greatest job. I said in that column
that immortal man can have. And I stand by that sentiment.
It is it is truly the greatest job in the world.
There's nothing like it.

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):
I will not disagree with you. And in that sense, Mike.

Speaker 1 (02:03:34):
Well, chief I I really appreciate your time. This was
the heck of a show. Before I say goodbye to
the audience and stick around. We'll talk off the air. Uh,
it's I Flora is yours. I always like to give
my guests the opportunity to do shout outs at the end.
So if you've got family or friends that you want
to shout out, go right ahead.

Speaker 2 (02:03:50):
Yeah. No, I think I think what I'd like to
do is just just acknowledge all those that made the
supreme sacrifice. They're the true hero is right, so, and
they're families. I just want to acknowledge. So it's just
not a shout out, it's just amnology. You know. That's
you know, they are the bravest of the brave, and

(02:04:14):
you know that's something that I'll never forget, and I
know that that our department will never forget.

Speaker 1 (02:04:22):
Well said Chief Well said Thanks as always, Like I said,
we'll talk off air, So stick around. Thanks to all
you who tuned in rather you watched on YouTube, LinkedIn
or Facebook, and those of you that will watch this
later or listen to it later Apple, Spotify, speaker, wherever
it is that you may get your podcasts coming up
next in the mic then you even podcast of course,
as I mentioned before, he was a New York City's

(02:04:43):
most senior paramedic at one point. He came on in
nineteen seventy five and stayed through the merger with the
FD and Y nineteen ninety six. Retired in two thousand
and five, has been teaching forever. Mark Peck for volume
seventy of the Best of the Bravest interviews with the
FT and Why Slite. So that'll be a good show
and after that next Monday working the NYPD. He came
on around two thousand and four, had a variety of

(02:05:05):
different commands before ultimately retiring as the lieutenant and transitioning
into podcasting himself. And that'll be retired f YPD Lieutenant
John McCarey next Monday at six pm. So thanks again
for all you tuning in. For those of you listening
on the audio side for tonight's outro song from his
nineteen eighty five album The Dream of the Blue Turtles,
it's staying with if you love Somebody, Set them Free.

(02:05:26):
In the meantime on behalf of retired FT and Y
Chief of Department John Sudnick and producer Victor. I'm Mike
Cologne and we will see you next time.

Speaker 4 (02:05:33):
To everyone, Oh to see.

Speaker 3 (02:06:01):
You want to keep something bass No, I'm not throwing again.
You want to hoarder your position, don't even think about
it some.

Speaker 5 (02:06:32):
So set cloud for you, set set clown for you,
Set cloud for you.

Speaker 3 (02:06:49):
But remember you wants.

Speaker 5 (02:06:53):
Looking up the more.

Speaker 3 (02:07:01):
Someone who despise.

Speaker 6 (02:07:05):
About sym saying that your passy.

Speaker 3 (02:07:12):
At this man, I gonna change some people of all.

Speaker 7 (02:07:26):
Song something super please set.

Speaker 3 (02:07:40):
Down free second, set down second set fun free second.

Speaker 6 (02:07:52):
You can't show.

Speaker 3 (02:07:58):
He can't say.

Speaker 7 (02:08:05):
Thank you for other condition either we can live.

Speaker 3 (02:08:10):
You can't live here and be happy with last.

Speaker 6 (02:08:14):
Start that iricious, stop the sus everything to see that.

Speaker 3 (02:08:20):
You need somebody, come my name. If you want some
long you can do, you can do. You can do
the same.

Speaker 7 (02:08:37):
And you want to keep something pushing us, go as
to keep.

Speaker 3 (02:08:44):
Well, hold on to your procession. Don't even think about
me so so so stumpy.

Speaker 6 (02:09:10):
Set coronery sent sut con scound the set country set
the set county second set con.

Speaker 3 (02:09:29):
Set central

Speaker 6 (02:09:33):
Sun set

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Episode 358: The Best of The Bravest: Chief of Department John Sudnik (Volume 69)

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