Episode 386: Lieutenant David Goldstein (LAPD/NYPD)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to The Mike the New Avent Podcast, hosted
by media personality and consultant Mike Cologe. There was no

(00:42):
technological difficulties. I was just on a work call, so
sorry about that. Welcome back to the second show of
this doubleheader here in the Mike the New Avent Podcast,
Episode three hundred and eighty six. We're fourteen away from
the big four zero zero four hundred episodes. That's a milestone.
Hopefully we'll hit early next year. I'm thinking sometime in January,
so very much excited about that. And again, welcome back

(01:04):
for those of you that watched our show this morning.
It was a fun one with not former actually I
speak mistakenly in that regard, current New York City Fire Commissioner,
Robert S. Tucker, the thirty fifth fire commissioner in the
history of New York City, and it was a good
look at his journey to this current role of his
and of course what the last fifteen months have been
like being the New York City Fire Commissioner. So that

(01:25):
was a lot of fun. I think all of you
who tuned in this morning and you're back again for
this nightcap with an equally interesting guest to'll introduce momentarily after,
of course, we run a couple of ads, so we'll
switch it up a bit from the order that we
did it in this morning. First things first, you'll hear
from once again Billy Ryan and the Ryan Investigative Group.
The Mike Thing you have. The podcast is proudly sponsored
and supported by the Ryan Investigative Group. If you need

(01:47):
an elite PI, look no further than the Elite Ryan
Investigative Group, which is run by retired NYP Detective Bill Ryan,
a twenty year veteran of the Department who served a
majority of his career in the detective Bureau, most notably
in Arson explosion Squad. So if you need a PI
to handle anything from fraud, legal services, and anything else
that you might require, contact Bill at three four seven

(02:08):
four one seven sixteen ten Again three four seven four
one seven sixteen ten reach them at his website or
the email that you see here. Again, if you need
a PI, look no further than Bill Ryan and the
Ryan Investigative who a proud supporter and sponsor of the
Mike de new Haven Podcast. And also a word of
course from our friends over at Granted State. Hey, there

(02:28):
are firefighters and fire buffs. If you're tuning into the
Mike the New Haven Podcast, you know the value of
reliable gear. At Granite State fire Helmets, we're proud to
introduce to TL two, our premium leather Phoenix fire helmet.
The TL two is all about comfort, durability, and that
timeless style you trust. And here's the best part. All
in stock. Inventory usually ships within twenty four hours, so

(02:51):
you'll have it in your hands in no time. Plus,
our company is proudly owned and operated by firemen, so
you know we've got your back and understand exactly what
you need out there on the front lines. So don't wait.
Gear up with the TL two today. Granite State fire
Helmets or Tradition beats innovation and were firemen? Have you covered?

(03:12):
Have you covered? Indeed, don't forget about their giveaway going
on through December twenty fourth for those of you, of
course with the firefighter in your life or maybe you
were a fireman yourself. My next guest is a former
officer in the United States Marine Corps and if you
could do that, you can do anything else. Like I
said before, any police academy after that type of training
is a cakewalk. By comparison, He's a decorated law enforcement
officer whose career has spanned both coast and multiple agencies.

(03:35):
And think about the agencies you see the most portrayed
in movies and television. Right, it's either the NYPD or
the LAPD. He worked for both.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
How cool is that is?

Speaker 1 (03:43):
He'll tell me about tonight. He started out in a
south central Los Angeles with the Los Angeles Police Department
and decided to come to the East Coast and work
for the New York City Police Department, carving out a
great career. In addition to that, serving as a police
officer and community a liaison at a major university, of
which you'll tell me about tonight. He wrote a book
to what Hasn't the Guy Done? Talking about retired NYPD lieutenant,

(04:05):
former Los Angeles Police officer and author Dave Goldstein Tennant. Welcome,
How are you?

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Hey? Good Mike? How are you good?

Speaker 1 (04:12):
To have you looking forward to this conversation? So tell
me first, I mean again, not an odd journey because
odd would mean bad, but a unique journey for sure,
and that's meant H's ways. So tell me about where
it all began. Where did you grow up? Originally I grew.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Up in New York, mostly on Long Island. I lived
in Queens still I was eighth. Then we moved to
Long Island and I finished up there. Then I went
to I went to school with Florida State, and then
I while I was in college, I enlisted in the
Marines and the Reserves, and so I went to the
boot camp and then I got out. I was in

(04:50):
a tank battalion in the reserve unit I was. I
didn't drop the tank because I was motor transport. But
then I when I graduated college, I got accepted the
officer Candada School, and I went active duty as an officer,
and I got out before you know, all the wars
and everything. But I was in air defense and so
I was in Okinawa and then cherry Point, North Carolina

(05:13):
at their base. And so when I was getting out
of the Marines, you know, I always knew I wanted
to go into law enforcement. Back then I was I
was thinking FBI, which now I'm very glad. I didn't
like the FBI is great, It's just I'm more of
a I like the street cup stuff. I like them,
so I called them. They were very nice. But when

(05:36):
I was getting out. I think I was about twenty
six at the time, and they wanted someone with a
little more experience after college, like I had the four
years of the Marines or whatever. They wanted a little
more and so I want to actually call an NYPD.
But back then, you know, it's like late nineties, they weren't.
They were only giving the test like once a year.

(05:58):
Back then. Now they're giving it like eight times a week,
you know. But it's back then, it was still like, uh,
it was hard, a little harder to get on. So
I remember I called them, We're gonna be doing like
a a deployment to Greece, just like a training to
Greece for a couple of weeks. So I said, I'm
gonna miss the test. I called the guy, Hey, do

(06:20):
you think he could hook me up? Could I come
back and take it? After he was just like such
a whatever. He's like come back next year and hung
up on me. But the uh it which never never
would happen now now they'd be like, oh yeah, but
when yeah, yeah, right, yeah, exactly, four felonies on your record,
now we can work with that, sure, yeah. But the

(06:41):
LAPD was going around the country. They were having a
prom recruiting back then. It was like in the wake
of the ramparts scandal. So they're coming around all the bases,
and so I went to the Infantry base at campus
and I took the test there. I did the out
of state testing process for a week, and I was
in the lap the academy before I was even I

(07:01):
was still getting paid by the Marine Corps, you know,
on my my terminal leave and so but and so,
I you know, I did like LAPD a lot as
a great department, but like I kind of came to
a point where I couldn't imagine staying out out in
LA for twenty or thirty years. I'm from New York,
so I moved back to New York. Had to go

(07:22):
through the NYPD academy. I mean I started right away
as soon as I left LAPD and then set to
go through that academy, which you know, whatever, and then
you know that I did my career and yeah, I've
never regretted it, no at all.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, not at all. And just to go back before
I really hit on the LA years and they were
brief two thousand and one to two thousand and three,
but nevertheless, you were a first lieutenant in the Marine Corps,
and you were on active duty in nineteen ninety seven
and two thousand and one. Really the only conflict from
that time was Kosovo, which was very brief in nature.
It was kind of over as soon as it began.
They when Clinton went against Melosovich at that time. But nevertheless,

(07:58):
I mean, tell me about it again. A lot of
the values you carry that into the police service as
well paramilitary organization. It's all right, mirroring a lot of
what the military does in nature. So I imagine going into
a structure like first the LA Police Academy. How similar
was it and that must have been, like I said
in the introduction, compared to what you were doing in
boot camp and baalk.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Well, it's funny because you think it's gonna okay, it's
gonna be a joke because you've been through the enlisted
boot camp, the officer boot camp. You know. Now, Like look,
I don't all Marine officers go through like a basic
infantry training and all that, but you don't go through
the specialized in fish training. So I'm not the guy
I got if you're fighting in a war, I'm not
the guy who's gonna know how to do all that,

(08:41):
you know, But I but I know a lot of
I've done a lot of policing in my career, you know,
but the main values I took from the Marine Corps is,
you know, a lead from the front, and that's like
that's the most important. And and and taking accountabil for
your actions so and those of your subordinates. So the

(09:05):
way I always did my career, and I do attribute
this to that military mindset, is that you know, even
through my whole career and even as a lieutenant was
a lieutenant my the last six plus years on the NYPD,
I was always the first one through every door. I
was always the first one. You know. Now, look if
if it's a heavy door and I get a twenty

(09:27):
two year old who could kick it in before me
forty five and have it you know, now I'm fifty one,
but you know, like hip and all these problems, yeah,
I'll have him kick it in. But you know, but
I always said, you know, you got to be first.
You should be first to the door because if your
if your cops and you know, subbortings. It's like that
in every job. But if they see that you know

(09:47):
what you're doing. The only way you're gonna know what
you're doing. You don't know. You don't learn what to
do by climbing up and rank. You learn how to
do the job by doing the job as a cop,
and then doing the job as a start, and then
doing it as a lieutenant. And you learn to lead,
not by taking courses or by sitting in an office

(10:08):
or saying I'm a swat commander or this that you
learn by doing the job right. And there's no experience.
You know, as some people that you know, you could
have a doctor in policing, it means nothing. The only
thing that really matters is experience. And so the way
you learn is by doing. And so you can't and
the way you have people actually do what you say

(10:31):
rather than do what you say because they're scared of you.
Have them do what you say because they know you
know what you're talking about, and they want you to
come to their calls because like, well, he knows what
he always knows what doing. He's gonna accept responsibility for
whatever happens. You know, he's not. You know, I've seen
too many times see either we call them the house
mice and NYPD. I talk about that in my book.
You know, guys who spend their whole careers inside, or

(10:54):
even guys who, let's say they become their their house mice,
but they become a sergeant and they go out to
patrol and they think, all of a sudden, I'm a sergeant,
normal lieutenant, I don't have to do basic police work anymore. Well,
I got to tell you, if you're the if you're
a block away from the call and it comes out,
I've seen sergeants, like new sergeants wait and I'm like, what.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Are you doing?

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Why don't you go to the call. I'm waiting for
the first cops to get there, and then I'll I'll go, No,
someone could be getting hurt in that. You go to
the call, you'll observe the cops plenty. You have plenty
of time to observe how the cops handle calls. That's
all you should be doing. You should know every single
companier shift, and you should know how they handle calls
because you see the way they do it. Sometimes you're

(11:38):
gonna take charge and you we're gonna do this then
and the other thing. Sometimes you let them, you know,
you're hanging back a little bit, let them. But if
it's a you know, you know, you can't. You have
to accept the fact that you're always going to be
at the at the heart, you're still a police officer.
You're in charge, but you're still a police officer. You
have you know, I mean, if you're the closest guy

(11:59):
to the suspect, you're the one who's gonna grab him
and put him in cuffs. If you're the closest guy,
you know, if he's over you know, if he's across
the room. You know. I learned when I first became
a sergeant. It was funny. I was. I was. We
had these guys stopped out of the projects and they
were they were troublemakers. To put him mildly, and I'm so,
I'm talking to the guy handcuffed one guy and I'm

(12:20):
holding on to him. I'm talking to the other guy
from like five feet away, but a cop is with him,
and he's lying to me, you know, as bad as
uh name and date of birth. And I can tell
that before we had mdts and all the cars, we
it was painting about to run somebody so he couldn't
always and then even if we run him by by communications,
it's like you really need to be looking at a

(12:41):
screen to say, hey, is this the guy or not?
Or have somebody who knows what they're doing looking at
so but I figured out he's lying, So I was like,
all right, you know what, cuff him up. Big mistake.
You know, I did have the guy. I couldn't go
over there because I was holding on to the one
guy he was cuffed up. So of course the senner's
years cut him up. He starts taking off and grabbing him.
But like the whole point is, if you're you know,

(13:02):
if you're a supervisor, if you're the closest one to
the suspect, you should be the one to handcuff them. Okay,
you're not. You're not gonna get stuck with all the
paperwork for the rest that's gonna be the police officer.
You're gonna help them. You could help them out with it,
but you know you're not gonna process. But you're the
one who's gonna put the cuffs on because you're closest
to them. You know, you learn, you know, like when
you work into the partner, you learn to do little
signals like you know, like this when the guy's not looking.

(13:24):
You know, I don't know if I you know, like
this or whatever you say, you know, but you don't
want to get too fancy. But the best way I
found this because a lot of times, when someone knows
they're gonna be cuffed up, that's when they have the
chance to like be like, Okay, I'm gonna run, I'm
gonna take off. A lot of times, the best way
to avoid fights and you're gonna get in a lot
of tussles is police officer. There's no way around it.

(13:44):
It's inevitable you want to get at but you want
to get in as few as you can. And because
things always happen. You someone twist their knees, somebody somebody,
Now you lose a cop, a cl christ need Yeah,
I've had a c l I had total a cl
tair chasing the guy with a gun. We caught him,
but I was told out for six months. You know,

(14:05):
like everything things happen. I've smashed my face on the concrete.
I've been bitten, I've been headbudded, you know, like, and
so it's like you want to get in his field.
So a lot of times the best way to do
it is if you work with someone who knows you,
you kind of know they and as a sergeant, lieutenant.
You're gonna train people and they're gonna they can see
the way you want to do things. A lot of times,

(14:25):
the best way if you both know he's going you
both grab a hand real quick and he doesn't have
the time to think, oh man, I'm gonna punch this
guy in the face and then I'm gonna turn and run.
It's just like you both grab a hand real quick,
and then you know, you yoke his hand and then
you cut him up and you you avoid any kind
of you know, problems. Now, sometimes you both grab a
hand and he twists out and you're gonna fight him anyway,

(14:47):
But that that eliminates a lot of your fights and
a lot of your foot pursuits just being smart about it.
You never want to telegraph, you know, as I was
a university cop in Boston for four you not a
great experience. But the way they were training was that,
you know, when you handcuff someone, you have your handcuffs

(15:08):
in your hand, and I think it's the way that
the state trains and say, turn around, sir, place your
hands behind your back. You never want to do that. Now,
you do that if you think the guy has a gun,
you're gonna pulling him out or whatever on the ground.
But you never do it like that because now he
has all this time to think, oh, shoot, the cups
are arresting me. And now he has the time thinking
I'm gonna run, I'm gonna turn a fight. You want

(15:29):
to just yeah, you want it to be over quickly.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Now.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Sometimes you say, turn around, put your hands behind your back. No,
you know, and you can't grab him whatever, No, no, no, no,
what were You're gonna arrest me? Yes, you're gonna be arrested.
Turn around, putting you hands behind your back, and you know,
like a lot of times that will work a lot
of times sometimes I won't. I mean, you're gonna want to,
but you always want to be kind of one step
ahead of the guy. You never want to stick your
face in his face. You don't want to be a
tough guy like you know, having your hands. You always

(15:54):
want to be bladed from the guy. I see young
rookie comps with their especially if they let cups have
their hands outside. They look the best side. I think
it's awesome. But they'll be talking to someone and they
got both hands shoved in their vest. I'm like, you
got a year on the job, but I don't care
if you have twenty years on the job. Have you
ever been punched in the face, because I have plenty.

(16:15):
I don't like it, And like, that's what you know that,
that's what's gonna happen if you're if you get the
wrong guy, he's gonna punch you in the face. If
you're like that, you let him know that you're always
ready for, you know, something to happen, and he sees
that by your demeanor. I don't care how your uniformals.
I don't care if your boots are shine. That's all nonsense.
It's just how you carry yourself. Is like, if you

(16:36):
look like you're always expecting something, then they're gonna be
less likely. They still might, but you know they're less likely,
you know, of course.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
And the thing that you have to keep in mind
with this too, and we're talking with retired LAPD officer
NYPD Lieutenant Dave Goldstein too, is that I'll never forget
what Joe Dolan told me on the show that he
was a yes you guy, a bomb squad guy on
the NYPD for twenty one years. He said, anytime you
encounter somebody, always treat them with respect and for as
crazy as it sounds, he also had it, but always
have a plan to kill them. And what he meant

(17:07):
by that is you don't know how the interaction is
gonna go. You don't come in on the ten, you
come in on a one. But gradually it can escalate
because these guys, especially the guys that are frequent flyers,
they've been to jail before. They don't want to go
back to your point, they're thinking. They're already thinking the
second I have a chance, I'm gonna throw a punch,
I'm gonna throw a kick, I'll shove them and take off,

(17:27):
or worst case scenario, I'm reaching for that knife, I'm
reaching for that gun, and then it's on. You know,
you have to be ready. I mean again, Phil Caruso,
the old PBA President's at the best. Policing is a
contact sport. You have to be ready to go at
any given time. It's not for the faint of heart.
That's why I can never do the job because I
don't want to fight anybody, you know, But then again,
not that you're waking up every day like your prime

(17:47):
Mike Tyson or prime Ken Shamrock. Let's get it on,
but sometimes you're gonna have to yet, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
No, that's so true, like what you just said, like
the contact sport, it's so true. It is true. Another
way I've heard it described when this guy I knew
I used to work with Sean Brown, has started and
one time he was addressed a roll call and you
know this, we were in bedsty at the time and
something had happened. I forget, but I remember he comes
in and he goes, listen to the cops. Listen, this
is not a gentleman's job. He's like, you know, you

(18:17):
know someone can have you know, this is not a
job where you're coming in a suit and tie and
you're looking pretty, and you know, He's like, look, it's
not a gentleman's job. At the end of the day,
it's a dirty job. And really stuck with me like
what he meant by that, because at the end of
the day, you're gonna get spat on, you're gonna be
in you're gonna have to sometimes clean up people's garbage.
Like it's discuss it could it's the blue car it's

(18:38):
the greatest blue collar job there is. But at the
end of the day it is somewhat of a blue car,
like you're dealing with a lot of shit. You're gonna
get spatted, you're gonna get you're gonna trip, you're gonna
be climbing stuff, You're gonna get dirty. It's just it's
and it's a job that like this. There was this
thing they used to teach us, and I'm sure they
still do that. The FBI did a study and they
said that if somebody is has spitch shine boots and

(19:02):
they have hat on and you know, the purpse are
gonna be scared of that person and they're gonna think
that he's the guy. But the guy who looks so sloppy,
they're not gonna be I don't agree with that. I
think as well as you look alert, because I've met
guys who have the neuraldiers, cops who have the neraldis
and are big tough guys. Right, that's who they're scared of,

(19:25):
you know, Like that's who you're scared. They're scared of
someone who's like looks like they're radiofight. But they'll still
fight them too. They'll fight anybody. But you know, the
way you talk to people is like it is too.
You don't you talk to people with respect and dignity.
But that doesn't mean that you don't ever raise your
voice or you don't ever say this is the way

(19:45):
it's gonna be. The One thing you don't want to
do is lose control.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
I was gonna say that, ye yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Now there are times when you occurse with someone, like
if you're holding a gun on someone and there was
just they're running from us, shots fired and you think
they just shot someone, or you're running, you might say,
get the f down on the ground, because if I say, sir,
I need you to calmly, stay, go on the ground,
he's gonna think you're a punk and he's gonna be like,
I don't care if you're old like me. He's still
gonna think you're a punk and he's gonna, you know,
you might have to say get the f on the

(20:12):
you know. Like, but in general, someone doesn't want to
turn around, turn around, I said, turn around, put your
hands here on your back. You don't, but you don't
start cursing at them at that point, you know what
I mean, Like, you don't the way you talk to someone,
you can talk to someone in your loud voice. And
what I've found, and this is partially from having kids.
You know, my kids are all older or not. But
like there have been people who've been like streetkers. We've

(20:35):
been screaming at me, you know, just like what the hell?
And look, I don't have enough yet. I don't know
what I'm going into. I don't know if I'm gonna
arrest him. I don't know if you know I'm gonna
he's a witness, he's a victimy, he's a suspect. I
don't even know, but I know he's he's a potential threat.
He's screaming at me, he's yelling, and sometimes it doesn't
always work. But there have been times when I've been like, sir,

(20:56):
you're screaming at me. I'm talking to you with respect, Okay,
I'm talking to you like a man, all right, Just
please tone it down a little bit. You don't have
to scream and curse at me, and that will work.
Sometimes sometimes I won't. Sometimes I'll just call you it,
you know, piesic shit, and it won't work. But you know,
you have to read the room a little bit. But
you know, like the the thing is anyone who says

(21:17):
that you know one thing applies to all situations, or
that you know one way of doing things is always
the writing no, generally speaking no. But there are certain
best practices that you always got to follow as a
police officer, such as you got someone in handcuffs, this
person is your responsibility. If you lose them, it's a

(21:39):
lot of problems. Okay, I don't care. Yeah, I don't care.
If it's a sixteen year old girl you arrested for shoplifting, right,
they're more likely to escape in my experience of what
I've seen, than a forty year old guy you arrested
for murder. I'm not saying that forty of your guys
is not going to try to escape. But whenever you

(21:59):
read about it and you see people try to run,
it's usually younger people, and a lot of times sometimes
the rest for something serious. A lot of times they aren't.
Somebody just might have a date that night, they might
just whatever. Or the guy could be one from murder
and Florida and you don't know about it. But you
have to with with prisoners. You have to do with
the exact same every time, and that's how you won't
have any problems and you will lose them, you know.

(22:21):
But for dealing with stuff out on the street. You're
you're gonna have to like look at the situation and
you're gonna have to adapt that way. And you can't
always say, oh, I'm always gonna do this or I'm
always gonna do that.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, of course. And you understand this because even in
those two years that you were in LA from one
to three, I mean you were in the West Valley,
you were also in South Central. Different context, different place,
same approach. That's the thing. And you have the benefit
of having being able to say that because you were
a police officer on two different coasts for two different departments.
It's the same concept overall. The backdrop may be different,

(22:54):
you know, the patrol car colors may be different. You
went from black and white to uh, blue and white.
But nevertheless, the concept of how you deal with people
is the same. It never changes across the board.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
No, it is the same. It's the same everyone. And
the best cops are the ones who know how to
talk to people. And also they're not look I would say,
to be a cop, you can't be a coward, you
can't be a racist, and you can't be a bully.
As long as you're not a coward or racist or
but you don't have to be the bravest person that
ever lived. You don't have to be the strongest, the

(23:25):
toughest person. But you can't be a coward. When you
hear gunshots, you got to run towards them. As a
police officer. That's the ones hard and fast rule. When
someone's being hurt. I don't care if you like this
is gonna go bad for me, you got to get
in on it. You know, whatever you do in your
civil enough, that's whatever. But when you're when you strop
on that that uniform, you have to understand that your
life is your safety is less important than other people's safety.

(23:49):
It just is part of the part of the job.
You know. They used to say when I first became
a cop, Oh, the important thing is we go home
at the end of the night. Yes, that is important.
But if you know, if you hear gun you have
to run towards them. You can't just be like, oh
my god, I don't know what's gonna I don't know
what's around that corner. You know, that's why you get
a retirement. That's why whatever people say, I have my

(24:11):
whole career, I was always proud to tell people I
was a police officer, and like, you know, there's a
lot of people don't like the cost. But even in
people say, oh this area everyone hates us. No, a
lot of people like you, and a lot of people
respect you, and they want you there and they want
you there, and you know, in any area. You know,
I've worked in a lot of high crime areas in

(24:32):
my career, you know, like too busy, high crime areas.
But in all those areas, most of the people who
live there are good will abiding citizens. Yeah, you can
have if you're in a precinct of one hundred and
twenty thousand people, that's bigger than a lot of towns
or cities, right, So you could have two or three
thousand people who are career violent perpetrators, right, too many

(24:54):
even for you to know everyone. Three thousand people that's
you know, that's like two percent of the That means
ninety eight percent of the people law buders. You're gonna
be dealing with those three thousand and a couple of
other thousand troublemakers. You're gonna be dealing with them all
the time. So you might have an opinion of that
area that doesn't really match what it actually is because

(25:17):
you're only seeing the worst, and you're only seeing the worst,
and you're only dealing with Most people don't call the
cops that much. Honestly, most people, even if you're living
in a busy area, you might call the coups a
couple of times. But you know, a lot of the
people who will repeat callers, a lot of them are
in the life themselves, you know, or whatever. So you're
only seeing the worst. And that's what I would would
tell people, like, you know, you got to you gotta

(25:38):
keep them on. This is not a war zone. Yeah,
we do dangerous things. We've all been hurt, we've been
we've had bad things. But you're not in Iraq or Afghanistan.
You know, even if you're working and you're working in
south central Los Angeles, you're working in South Chicago, you
work in Philadelphia seven yeah, the seven to five precinct,
then you know you're not in a war zone. Like

(26:00):
it's dangerous. Yeah, I mean I've been. You know, I've
worked when I was in transit, I covered the seven five.
I've worked the seven five when I was you know,
patrolling the seven five coverage this and that, you know, like,
and I've been I've been in the pink houses and
all all of them, you know, like and I was
in eight one for a long time, and I've worked
in the seven three when I was in transit, you know,
like a lot of times by myself, you know, with

(26:20):
no backup. And yeah, they they're they're statistically they're dangerous areas.
They are. But there were also children who walk, you know,
who walk in the middle of the day and nothing
happens to them, or you know, like children you're in
a housing project, Oh my god, this is the worst project,
the pink houses, this or that is the worst project. Yeah,

(26:40):
but there's also there's old ladies, there's old men, there's
children who walk and most likely nothing's gonna happen to
them on an every given day.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
It's not some people paint a picture that you're in
a war zone, and you're not. You're a police officer.
You could be in a dangerous area or busy area.
But if you start thinking you're in a war zone,
then you need to you need to really take a
step back and really look at the statistics. We have
fifteen twenty homicides in a one hundred thousand person area. Yeah,

(27:09):
the crime rates.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Kind of high, but it ain't Moga in nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yes, it's it's not. It's not the killing fields. It's
it's it's just it's not you told to guys whoever.
In Afghanistan. It's just a lot different. I mean, I've
I've actually dealt with grenades as a cop a couple
of times when someone had it. You know, it turns
out none of them have been live. But I've had it,
you know, a couple times. But I've never in my
life had a grenade thrown at me that exploded near me.

(27:34):
I've never had you know, I've never stepped on you know,
I've never had the IEDs, you know. Like, I mean,
the thing is that, like it's a danger Being off
is a dangerous job, but the main danger is, yes,
you could be killed, but you're gonna get hurt. You're
gonna get punched, you're gonna get You're gonna hurt yourself.
You're gonna you know, you're gonna deal with that. You're
gonna deal with you know a lot of like bad situations.

(27:55):
But like you do have to put it in perspective
to some degree. I mean, there are times when you
tussle with people two three, times in the day. But
you know it's all because it's not just people are arresting,
it's emotionally disturbed person's lot. You gotta you know, it
could just be a drunk person, someone's high that you
have to for their safety. You have to get them,

(28:16):
you know, and you're tested with people, but it is
on a different level. You're not in a war zone,
and anytime a cop thinks he's an a war zone,
I think that that they need to take take a
step back.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
No, of course, because then it's gonna kind of you
look at everybody as the enemy. And well, as you said,
most people there are your friends. It's not really the case.
And to your point, I mean, listen, I'm not saying
it's a good thing. When it happens. I'd rather did
not see them get assaulted. I'd rather of course, as
you said, you don't want to get assaulted. The cops
that you had under you don't want to see them
get assaulted either. But if you go through a twenty
twenty five, thirty thirty five, sometimes even more than that

(28:49):
career in the New York City Police Department, or any
busy police department for that matter, and you didn't get
scuffed up a few times. You didn't do anything. You
didn't have you because you weren't get you weren't getting
your hands dirty, you weren't a real copywork cop and
name only.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, and there's a lot, like I always tell people
with the NYPD, I don't know, it's maybe thirty two
thirty four thousand. Now, a lot of my career was
like thirty six thousand. But you know, like, and I'm saying, look,
NYPD has like nine thousand of the best cops in
the world. Those nine thousand people are what's keeping the
city safe nine thousand, and you have another like five
thousand of really good cops who were, like you know,

(29:23):
out there and whether they're naturally really good or not.
And if you're in a busy place in New York City,
you're dealing with so much stuff that you're gonna learn
to talk to to crazy people. You're gonna learn to
talk to people, and you're gonna learn to do the
job well better than you know, somebody who's a genius
who works in in a low crime area who never

(29:44):
really experiences it. You're just gonna learn to do it.
But that's how probably about eighteen thousand people you know
at that time, maybe it's sixteen thousand now who work
administrative jobs. And you know, anytime someone tells you something
that seems too crazy or that they have a job
that they can't really that doesn't make sense. Like I'm

(30:07):
a detective in narcotics, that makes sense to me. I'm
a detective advice, I'm a detective and a detective that
no one makes sense to me. I'm a patrol officer.
I'm a patrol So if you say I'm a crime analysis,
I'm I worked for the chiefs office this, so that
that means you're not doing.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Police work right, and it better be ye to make it. Addendum,
you better be there at the end of what's been
an active twenty twenty five thirty year career where that's
your assignment to kind of wind down because you've paid
your dues. But you're rarely the case exactly if you're
there with three four years in the job, I'm like,
and again, what is the boil down to? Who do

(30:42):
you know? Who's your rabbi? Who's your hook?

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Right? But you shouldn't even want that like I I had,
like I never had when I went on I didn't
know anyone on the job in New York. But like
there was an executive officer I worked with when I
first got out there, and I'd been on LADPD before.
So it's like I I, you know, a good decent
amount of experience, not still you know.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Two years.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, but so I when I first got there, my
my last four years and it was five years. In
trance of my first year, I worked mostly covered like
Bedsty and downtown Brooklyn area. Then after that I went
to we were covering like Brownsville, East New York area,
going out to even Williamsburg and stuff. But in his

(31:26):
area when I first got there, you know, they have
us at the Bedstype post every day, no String Avenue
and classon Avenue and uh Franklin Avenue and like you know,
so like back then, like it was like people would
just like had no they had to stare overnight, like
you know, like seven to four in the morning or whatever.

(31:46):
And so you know, you would get you would wrest
them from a minor thing, like you know, jump at a
turnstile or just minor thing, and it would be a fight.
It would be a fight, and you'd be surrounded by
a bunch of people and you had to call, hey,
we need someone to pick us up when you come,
and you kind of kind of deal like I don't really,
but so he slowed the way I handed myself and
I did more than everybody else, and so they like

(32:09):
so after that, he kind of like looked out. He
looked out for me my whole career because he eventually
went to He had a lot of time on the streets,
but he eventually went to UH employee management. He did
the right thing. He did twenty plus years on patrol,
and then he ended his career in employee manager, which
is that's honorable, you know. He he had the time
I had.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
That's like I said, assimate to end your to wind
down after paying your dues.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
And he looked after me. And I hooked into bed
Stey when I was getting on trance. I wanted to
stay in Brooklyn, North He got me into the one.
He used to make fun of me. He was like,
you hooked into the eight one because it's a busy,
you know. Like, and then when I I wanted when
I was becoming lieutenant, I wanted to stay in Brooklyn,
but they wouldn't let me stay in Brooklyn. So I
wound up going to the one thirteen South Jamaica, Queens

(32:55):
with you know, busy area. But like he also helped
me with that, so I know. But I wasn't going
to hook into an administrative type job. That's not why
I became a cop. I mean, if you want to
be administrative for a police department, that's fine, but don't
become a cop. There are plenty of people who want
to be cops who couldn't for whatever reason. And I
always told you, this job's like winning the lottery. But

(33:16):
what you should not do is to work. If you're
working inside job, how do you how do you justify that?
Like because I and I never had an issue with
the inside people, because because I'm not a tough guy.
Like listen, I'm not a coward, but I'm not a
tough guy. But as a cop, I always said, I'm
going to do the right thing and look if it
doesn't work out well for me, oh well, you know,
that's my job, you know. But the thing is that

(33:38):
I was always wanted to be in busy areas. I
was always active and I wanted to be, you know,
where things were happening. But if you're a guy, is
like I'm a tough guy, but you know I got
this hook I could work inside. It's like, well, you're
not going to learn the job. You're not going to
be good at the job. You're going to be in
a hole to people because you're going to think you're

(33:59):
you know everything. And also like, how do you justify
taking that money from the city when you're not doing
a twenty year retire or twenty five year retirement, when
you're not doing anything, you're not doing any police work.
You should just become a civilian. That was always my
and when I become a supervisor, I really saw it.
An I deal with this in the book. A lot
was is like I remember when I was on either

(34:21):
the I worked and when I was in the best
hour at the midnights, I worth the four tolls, and
then I worked the day shift and as a sergeant,
And like I remember when I was on the day shift,
I could have eight cops to cover the whole precinct,
one of the one of the more violent, one of
the most violent preescincts in the city. And I could
have by the end of where everything, prisoner transports, people being,

(34:41):
people sitting in a hospitalized prisoner traffic actions, this and that,
crime scenes. I could be down to like three people
or four people, and I always say, okay, well you
are a crime analysis, you were the plant man, you
work in roll call, you do this that. I need
you to suit up. I'm driving myself answering calls. I
got one one unit basically covering the whole preason, and

(35:02):
I say, all right, I need you to go answer calls.
Oh I can't. I have things to do this for
the commanding officer. I don't care. Go out suit up.
People are calling nine one one. I'm holding eight calls.
Two of them are domestics. People expect someone to come.
When you call nine one one, you gotta go. All right,
sir enough, I'll get a call two minutes later. How
dare you try to get my person? You're not managing

(35:23):
your resources property And they won't. But meanwhile, these same people,
if I told them listen, I know I would. So
what happens. Sometimes one police plaza would call and they say,
we have a brunch going on. We need a cop
to come in their dress uniform.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Here.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
I can't send my cops. I don't have enough people
to do that. It would be nice to send them.
I'm sure they like it. I can't send them. I
would go up to the inside, people, Hey, I need
you to suit up right now and go to one
police plaza because they're having a brunch there. They would
always have time to do that. They would never call
their commanding officer and say say, oh I can't do this,

(35:58):
I'm I'm too busy. They would always have time to
do that. They just didn't want to work the streets.
And when they were made to work the streets, they
were bad. They were bullied, they were scared to do
their job. They were scared of their own shadow, and
they were nasty to people, and they didn't do their
job properly. And that's when I really that's when I
really it really hit me, Like you're gonna be a cop.
Just be a cop, you know, like that's and.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
It's either in you or it's not. It's either in
you or.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
It's not right. And if it's not in you, there's
no shame in that.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Just not for everybody, No.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
And there's no shame in that. Like I know people
who was like I remember something my brother, and my
brother's like, how do you do what? He's like, if
I went up to someone on the street corner. I
told him you need to leave, and they're like no,
ef us. He's like, I might just be like, you know,
like I said no, but that's fine. You didn't become
a cop though, Like just fine, there's nothing wrong.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
You know, you know yourself, you know, you're live.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, it's like I guess to be a cop, you
kind of have to you kind of you can't be
that afraid of confrontation, you know, because you're gonna get
a lot of stuff that's great. And I'm also great
confrontations where it's like I know I can't do anything
to this guy, but I need him to leave, and
you know, so you've got to kind of a bluff
or think about what you can do. But it's like
there's a lot of gray stuff that's really like sometimes

(37:13):
you're scared. I don't mean physically, but you're still like
I don't know what to do here because I need
to handle the situation, but he's not letting me, you know,
And it's like sometimes you have to. That's where you're experience,
and you know it comes into play, you.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Know absolutely, And mind you you had transit for five
years and John Latanzio who's a housing cop and also
an emergency service cop in the NYPD verbal judo. That's
what Commissioner Bratton coined it as the Commissioner safer as well.
But that being said, I mean you had transfer for
five years, so it's not even just a specific beat.
I mean obviously you had the eight one I'll get
to that as a boss, and you also were in

(37:46):
Queens as a lieutenant too before you wind it down
your career. But in a situation like that, you're not
dealing with the same people for the most part, every day,
so the approach changes in that particular sense, but all
the more recent. And to keep that control because you're
in quite literally a moving environment, trains going, people going
with it, a lot of people to keep an eye on.

(38:08):
All the more reason to have your bearings because that
should you know. Obviously it helped you those five years
before you became Boston the NYPD side, and it carried
with you into the eight one and later on of
course out in Queens.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's there's definitely true. And like
you know, when you're in transit, you know you work
by yourself a lot, so you know, you could be
on a subway platform at two in the morning and
there's nothing coming out you. So you got to be
able to your tactics change a little bit. You know,
you learn what works for you. You know, there's times when

(38:39):
you have to stop two or three b you say, hey,
you guys, come over here. You have to be smart,
like like part of the the I remember when I
was in when I when I was in, I was
in the seventy five precinct, I was at one of
the train stations, and I think I was I was
in a storeroom because I think I was smoking a cigarette.
Not supposed to write whatever, so I was. I was.

(39:01):
So I see these two sixteen seventeen. They double up
at a turnstile, so I'm like, I'm gonna go grab him.
But then the one guy starts running as soon as
he sees me. He starts running down to the platform.
I think it's Shepherd AV and he starts running down
the platform. So that you have the local train at
that point, the sea train, but you don't have the
A train, the express train soday. So the first I
see him holding his waistband, so I know he's got

(39:24):
a gun. So but the other guy, I don't know
if he has a gun too whatever, so I have
to grab him too. So I grab him. I don't
have any backup.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Ord.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
I think I handcuff him to the banister, and I
since the cuffs really tight, you know, so that he
couldn't get out of it. And I searched him real quick.
And then but I think he had a knife on
him or somebody took that off him. I said, you know,
blah blah blah. He's like, okay, yeah, he has a gun,
blah blah blah blah. So then I ran down to
the platform and I, uh, I didn't see him, and

(39:55):
a train had come, but I think it was the
express train, and I lady, I said, you see somebody
just up? She said she didn't see nothing. Then I
finally find him hiding behind like a storage box at
the end of the platform. Pronum out, got him, got
the gun, you know whatever. But it's like, no one
ever told me that I was gonna have to, you know,
that I could handcuff someone to a banister. If something

(40:16):
had gone wrong with that, I would have been in
a lot of trouble. But I made a judgment call
and I said, you know what, I know I'm gonna
send the cuffs tight. He's not gonna get out now,
if he was Houdini, or he had a handcuff key
somewhere on his person, or if I just didn't you know,
I sent handpar i handed since they had the skin
tight on him. But that could have gone bad for me.
And there was one other time when I did that,

(40:38):
when I had a guy in cuffs for a warrant
or something and a lady upstairs. She just got robbed
and I wound up catching the guy. But I got
lucky on that other one. I threatened him with hell
I ward, and he stayed, and then I wound um
letting him go. But I'm as a thank you, you know.
But that's you know, that's not but you know your tactics,

(41:00):
you know, so people, you know, sometimes you have to
be in terms of when you're working by yourself in
a rough arey, do you have to be a little
bit more in some ways, a little more worthy and
in some ways a little more like physical in some
ways too like it's just because it's you know, they know,
I just got to get past this one guy and
I'm out of here. It's a lot, it's a lot different.

(41:20):
It's better. I always I've worked by myself with no backup.
But you know what, I'd rather have ten cops there
than two cops any day, you know what I mean. Point,
But yeah, I'd rather have If I can have four
or five six cops there, I'll have that. That was
the thing I had working as a college company. You
would have sometimes of situation that it required people to come.
But oh, you know, gold seems that he was NP.

(41:42):
He knows to handle it, and they won't even back you.
And I'm like, this was a potentially dangerous call. It
the guy's walking around with a stick with a metal
pulley swinging at people, and nobody came to back me. Well, yeah,
but we know you could handle it. No, No, I'd
rather have more people. I handled it, you know whatever,
But I'd rather I'd rather have everybody come to that

(42:02):
call rather than nobody come. Coke. I'm sorry, you know, like,
but that's that's the thing. It's like, you do what
you get. I was talking with a guy, the guy Iceman,
he does the motorcop chronicles, and he was talking about
how he's in the boonies and like, you know, so
he could have no backup for thirty forty minutes. You know,
you deal with what you got, You work with what

(42:22):
you got. But if I have your personal I'd rather
have more personnel there in a lot of cases than
have less. It's always better more, of course.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
And again that's where that verbal judo comes into play
for the cops working out in rural territories. And again
it's not encouraging complacency. Just because backups close by doesn't
mean you want to use it if you don't have to.
But it helps to know, all right, if I call
within thirty seconds, i'm gonna hear the sirens whailing and
transs case, i'm gonna hear the footsteps, you know, and
they're gonna be running down the planet trans that it could.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Be a bit though again that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, either even with the repeaters sometimes and this is
an eighties or nineties trans that the radios may not
always work, No depends where you're at.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
It did not always work, and they don't. They aren't
running one car, so they're not gonna get there's the
precinct guys who are going to get there whatever priestinct's covering,
but they're in a different frequency, so by the time
they hear it. They know the states, you know, there
were Tom said ten minutes and then and they'll come.
They'll always come. N REPD is good about coming up

(43:22):
l A. P D Two obviously, you know, it's good
about coming to backups. You know, except except your housemice.
They would never run out to go help a fellow cop.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
No, but they'll they'll they'll listen to the radio though,
they'll have the radio.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Oh yeah, and they know that. You look at their
Facebook and they have pictures of themselves and all these
they're in uniform all the time. They're holding a rifle.
But you know they don't.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Do the Yeah, it's all for show. It's all for show.
You know a few people like that. Over the course
of your career, speaking generally, you just you run into
some great people, like you said, then you run into
some real slugs that it's like, how did you get
on the job, you know, besides the patrolling counters. One
thing too, when you were sergeant in the eight one
there was sex trafficking ring that you were able to
help bust up back in twenty fourteen and got you

(44:05):
the Sergeant of the Year award out of it. So
tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
That's funny because I that was totally unexpected. You know,
I've I've had a couple of times where we've you know,
rescued kids that were being trapped or just girls who've
been held like simple domestics where you know, the guy's
keeping her in the apartment. You know, we had to
bust in and grab her. But this particular one, you know,
I didn't even think it was going to go anywhere. Actually,

(44:29):
when they called to tell me, I they sent me
a letter saying you won Sergeant of the Year. And
I was a lieutenant at that point, so I just
threw it in the garbage. I was like, yeah, right, okay, whatever.
So I didn't think it was real. And then my
buddy Terry, who he had actually done a lot of
the hands on work it started. I got the intelligence
and with the victim and him and the crime sergeant

(44:51):
in the seven and three did a lot of the
hands on work because I was innate one and he
had written it up and so he called me and
he's like, are you going to the word thing? I
was like, dude, it's for like uh sergeants, some lieutenant.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
What it's like.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
But it was like a big thing. It was only
eight sergeants in the whole department who got it. And
he's like, no, it's from that thing. And I was like, oh, okay,
and then they called me and I said, yeah, yeah,
come and it was actually a really nice thing. But
that situation was I got intelligence. I think we arrested
somebody and we wound up talking to a girl who
I think she had escaped from it, I believe, and

(45:27):
that there was a house in the uh seven three
where they were holding uh these girls uh and trafficking them.
And I don't remember the ages. That they were young though,
and uh so I had to I was dealing with
and arresting some other stuff and it was some three.
So my my buddy Terry, who went I worked with

(45:47):
him in my first year in transit. Great guy. He
uh he wound up going over there with the crime sergeant.
They wound up having new and at first his his
patrol sertant didn't want to do it, and I was like, no,
it's it's one hundred percent. It's just like when you
have a domestic violence you can't just someone doesn't want
to let you into the house. You got your You're

(46:08):
going into the house. It's the same thing. You have
a possible you have a credible report of sex trafficking here.
It's not like you have a We know that this
girl was in there and she's telling us, yes, I
was in there. There're girls in there right now and
they're being trapped. If they don't want to let you in,
you have to go in. It doesn't matter, and you're
going to go in. However, you got to go in.

(46:30):
It's different if let's say there's a want and murder
in the house, but he's by himself. You might, depending
on what the laws are in your place, you might
have to get a warrant this and that. You might
have to watch the house, get a warrant. But there's somebody,
a possible victim of a crime who could be being
victimized as you speak. You just got to go in.
So they went in and grabbed everybody and it was
a good grab. Saved a couple of girls from this, uh,

(46:53):
from the trafficking. I have a couple of those, you
know where We've done that over the years, and sometimes
it's more like just one girl you get our help
or but sometimes there's been a couple of them and
it's uh yeah. I mean, you know, it's like one
of those things where like you know, you're glad you
did it, but it's like, you know, you don't really
want to be like, yeah, I did it, because it's

(47:14):
like you see, you know, it's the dark case.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Yeah, it's very dark case.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
You know a lot of stuff you do. You do
it and you're like, yeah, I did a good job,
but you don't even want to talk about it, you
know what I mean, you don't even want to like
tell anyone.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
About it, like yeah, yeah. And it's part of the
ugliness that you see. You know, as a police officer,
like I said, you see a lot of funny things.
You see a lot of hilarious things. But if you're
a first spot or kind of like I was talking
about this morning with the previous show Commissioner Tucker Ems
fire police, they all share this in common. You see
some stuff you wish your eyes and brain could forget,

(47:47):
but they never will. That's one of them. It had
a good outcome, but it was devastating because you see
the worst in human nature in a case like that,
and it was the worst.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
It's different when you get someone who's wandered for crum.
Let's say they wanted for homicide. It's the wonder for
like killing a kid or something you're never gonna feel
good about, unless I did. They wanted for Rea Homosi, Like,
you don't know the victim, you don't know who it was.
You right, you grab killing each other? You get him
on it. I'm no, it's still listen. Every life is
every life is important, every life is different. Yeah yeah,
but like if you just grab someone else, you recognize

(48:17):
him off, I want to poster and for homicides it
feels good and you're like, yeah, I got the guy,
you know, feel good. I wasn't someone I didn't like
to write. They they used to like do write ups,
YPD a lot of people world. I never did those.
Towards the end of my career, the when my cops
will put me in I would sign it. But I
didn't really like those too much. I just I always

(48:37):
got satisfaction of doing the job. Now. Look, would I
sometimes brag, yeah I just grabbed this guy. Yeah I
bragged about but I wouldn't like try to put it
on paper. I wasn't. It wasn't you know. I. I
I was always like people know what it like I
work hard at the job, and I try to do
the job, you know, two hundred percent, and you know,
like you know, at the end of the day, every lesson,

(48:58):
you know, you get someone who's killed on the street. Unfortunately,
you know, you're working you know, I worked in basically
ninety five percent, Like the areas I worked in were
ninety five one hundred percent black and maybe some Hispanic,
you know, like maybe ten percent of spent whatever. You know,
you see a young black killed in the street, and

(49:19):
so unfortunately, this is what the media thinks. This is
where oh yeah, he's probably in the gang. Not a
lot of times. Not Look, once someone starts cranking rounds
in the street, those rounds are going to hit anyone.
They're not good shots, these guys.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
They're never going to hit the person they're after, too.
They always hit the innocent bystander. Always. Yeah, if you're
going to actually do that, sorry to cut you off
with God forbid. Well yeah, yeah, the road, you actually
hit the person you're trying to go after, you know,
right right now.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Look, a lot of times they do hit the intended target.
A lot of times the intended targets a bad dude
just like them, and sometimes they're not, or sometimes they
are mistaken, they should the wrong person, or sometimes just
aaron rounds and you never know. And it's like, you know,
I've had people who were shot or even home invasion
stuff where they got shot and killed and they weren't innocent,

(50:09):
totally innocent person they would, but because he's a young
black man, it's just not a big news story, and
it's one of the most tragic things. That's why. And
as cops look, the fact is that if I was
gonna say, I've been to a lot of shooting since
in my career, right, I would say that, let's say

(50:30):
eighty percent of the people were in the life pretty heavily,
maybe eighty five percent, but fifteen percent weren't or ten
percent whatever. It is, like, there's gonna be a decent amount.
Anyone who tells you everyone gets there's gonna be a
decent amount of people who are innocent in the wrong place,
in the wrong time, mistaken identity or just shot you know,

(50:51):
errant round or you know, you know whatever, domestic there
witness to a crime, whatever, you know, Like, there's gonna
be that, and there's also gonna be you know, guys
who like you know, they were killed, shot once in
the back of the head, execution style. And he's got
you know, he just got our prison and he's got
a long day, and you know that this was you know, planned,

(51:12):
and this and that. But and to some degree he
has some responsibility in it. But the fact is he's
still a human. If you start saying, well, this guy's
a tragedy, this guy's not a tragedy. The promise you
got to treat everyone the same as especially in this
you have to say, listen, you know there's a homicide
and it's got to be solved. And look, it turns

(51:32):
out the guy was a bad guy. Look, let's say
suppose a child molester. I don't really think anyone really
cares that. The guys that you gotta you don't know
though when you first get there, it doesn't really matter.
And you gotta you gotta treat everything like this is
the crime and this is what we gotta we gotta
work with. And you know, when you hear even people
who are in the life, most people aren't childmost you know,

(51:53):
even people in the life who like did bad stuff.
You gotta watch what you say at a crime scene
because people's families are there. You know, people's families come out.
How you know, the guy's brother comes out. The guys.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
You gotta watch somebody somebody loved them.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Yeah. I've had people who I really didn't like and
got killed, and I'm like, you know, I knew that
was going to happen sooner orarl. You got to watch it.
You gotta watch it because you know, you don't know
who's watching you and everybody. Most people have someone who
cares about them, and you have to remember that it.
How would you feel if they you know, or if
you're a relative and they were an instant, like an

(52:29):
instant victim, and the cops are all thinking, oh, he's
probably a gang and we're running run right right away,
we're running his history. Oh no, he's clean, you know,
because we're just expecting that he's going to be. How
would you feel if the cops are talking about this
guy like he's a potential suspect, like he somehow brought
it on him. That's not why cops run the guy.
We run him so we can know maybe who shot him,

(52:49):
who's out of re beef with him that you know,
that's why we do it. But you got to keep
that stuff kind of tight. You got to watch who's
listening to you.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
You know, you can't get in trouble for thinking it.
You can get in trouble for saying it, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
More so you hurt people and it's not right, and
you you know, like people are. You know, you could
love someone who's not a good person and it still hurts.
You know, you just have to kind of be a
decent person, you know.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
It happens Matt Alexander and the chat's asking if you
know Captain Pete Casey or Officer Christina tudor by chance. No,
you know, it's such a big departments, Like, yeah, hard
to do thousand cops.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
I one might not know one of them, you know.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yeah, it's hard to know. I was gonna say, because
you spent as far as the NYPD years were concerned,
the first decade of your career between being a cop
and then just being a boss. We're in Brooklyn because
you were in District thirty three in Brooklyn, then you
were in the eight one. You make lieutenant twenty fourteen, Yeah,
for just about eleven and a half years, and then
you make lieutenant. You go out to Queens for the
last six before you put in your paper, so just
tell me about again, even though again same job, a

(53:49):
bit of a different role now you're a platoon commander
on top of this. Just how long because put you know,
much like firefighting in every borough is different, policing in
every borough is different. There Brooklyn style policing and there's
Queen style. How long did it take you to get
used to Queens? If at all?

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Not that long because honestly, the one thirteen is probably
the probably the most violent precinct in Queens. I get,
but it's but it's not as it's not as violent
as Bad Side because the one thirteen is a very
big precinct, very spad. The eight to one was a
very small precinct and it was very condensed. So you

(54:25):
might have the same amount of homicides roughly, but it's
just you can't compare because you're talking about one and
a half miles versus like twenty over many miles of
the one thirteen. It was a big place. So it's
like I would say, you overall had less robberies street
robberies than in Brooklyn. You had fair amount of shoot

(54:46):
you had a like like I'm one of my years,
we unfortunately led the NYPD in homicides, but that was
like one of the lowest homicide years of all time,
so it wasn't even that high of an number. I
think we did a pretty good job. You know. It
was a very big precinct, very uh spread out, and

(55:08):
so it's like it's same people, you know, like the
one thirteen is basically it's an it's an all black precinct.
You have some Guyanese and it's mostly it's a little
different in that, you know, and in bets that you had,
you have more projects. You had like three projects and
a bunch of really problems Section eight buildings where there's

(55:31):
a lot of problems, like a lot of shootings, a
lot of or around them, whereas in uh, the one thirteen,
you had one project, the Baisley projects, very busy project,
very busy project, the basic projects. But you know, you
you didn't have so you had a couple of epicenters
of your you know, like boor you have certain blocks,

(55:51):
but there's like so many blocks where nothing happens. Ever,
you know, it's like it's a middle. The one thirteen
was what I try to tell, like I heard someone
call it a ghetto. One time, I was like, Yo,
this is not the ghetto. This is a middle class.
There's an upper middle class, middle class, lower middle class,
and poorer area. But I said, there's a lot of
people who live in this area whose houses are more

(56:14):
expensive than your parents' house. You think you're so you
think you're the queen of Sheeb over here, listen, I mean,
you know, like that. But it had a c It's
just like anywhere else. You have one hundred and twenty
thousand people in the precinct, you have a couple of
thousand bad apples, and people from other places and queens
would come out there. And this is what I did.
Never dealt with in Brooklyn. Almost never dealt with Long

(56:36):
Island purpose in Brooklyn because it's further what and not
that far really, But for I never dealt with Long
Island purpose in Brooklyn. Almost never. In South Jamaica, you would,
you know, I won't say every day, but you would
deal with a lot of Long Island purpose because people
would come out here. I later found out I knew
a guy who went to Nasau, and so I guess

(56:58):
they would buy the drugs and the one that team,
but all the drug users, all the heroin users are
out on Long Island, most of them not there was
heroin users in the city. But like, you know, I
know this from going to Boston. You know that the
heroine is a you know, it's it's a it's a
white people's problem for the most part. You know, like
it black people just put there's a white peers and
so like, you know, you have a lot of purposal

(57:20):
came into the one thirteen from Long Island, which I
never had really dealt with that too much before, and
now it's saw a common occasion that I'd go out
to Long Island for something. But yes, so that was
that was a difference. And you know, I mean, uh
because I the one thirteen was like where people did

(57:41):
a lot of the crimes and queens Like it's like
people came from other to do the crimes because it
was it's a big place. There's a lot of you know,
a lot of residences and stuff like that. But yeah,
I mean, like it was different that crack was already
like when I first became a cop, crack wash big thing,
the crack epdemic kind of wane used to get people

(58:03):
with cracked, but much less when I first became a cop.
Every single person we stopped, every still street guy would
stopped had a crack pipe on him and probably cracked.
It just lowered and weaned and weaned, and then you know,
you'd see heroin rising. For a while. It was K
two synthetic marijuana that I had a lot of that
in Bedstye and made people like they were on PCP almost.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
It was that was that was a problem city wide
for a hot minute there.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Yeah, and the people acted like they were And I
had in the one thirteen too like people. It almost
like it gives people that same intowerance to add high
towerance to pain and craziness that PCP. And I dealt
with some people in PCP when I was in South Cnzela,
when I was a rookie, I dealt with there was
a PCP problem for a while there. And it's the

(58:48):
same thing. They get that same thousand yards stare. They
get really crazy, not everybody, but some people because they
keep changing the ingredients to K two and it you
know it wohilch have different effects on different people. So
you have that and then you the heroines started to
get worse and worse every year. I never saw as
much Heroin as I saw it even being a you know,
campus cop in Boston, because she's.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Like and uh, you know, like but.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Yeah, I mean, uh so that was a that was
a big thing. Like the difference I would say, and
I would say that the cops too. It's like I
think I think cops should be representative more or less
of the air they police. I mean, like Innate one,
it was always known as as it could be. Obviously
you had white cops, but you had a lot of
black cops. You have a lot of Hispanic cops, a

(59:36):
lot of people from the city, you know, were lived
in Brooklyn, you know. And I think it's if you're
policing an all black area, you should not have a
majority of white cops policing an all black area. Just
like I don't think there's any police department in the
world that can police is an old white area and
has all black cops. I don't think that would. It's
not the optics of it. It's just that if you're

(59:57):
a person in the air, think about it, you want
to see some people like it's like yeah, and I'm
not talking about optics or just like.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
It's just just relatability and look too many white people's
no good and too many.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
You need a mix of people.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
You need a mix of people.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
And yeah, especially when I first came to one thirty,
it was not like that because it's kind of a
hook command. Even though it's busy for Queens. It's close
to Long Island, so a lot of people would hook
into that. There's a lot a lot of white guys
from Long Island, and there was too many when I
first got to the four to twelve shift. When I
first worked there, there was just too many white people

(01:00:34):
in the shift. I got to tell you, there's no
other way I can say it, because there's just too
many white people in the shift. And I had some
problems that first year. I had some problems and too
many PBA guys the PBA. Listen, this PBA. We need unions.

(01:00:55):
But the PBA is not a friend to street cups.
Sort of too good police. They the PBA wants you
to treat every cop the same, whether the worst cup,
whether the racist bully who is terrible and lazy. They
want you to treat that guy just as well as
your best cup, who treats everyone with respect and dignity
and works very hard. Right, The p BA wants everyone

(01:01:17):
to do like they do no police work ever, and
fancy restaurants. So you know, you had guys who were
very hooked into the PBA. It was one of the
It was one of the hardest years of my supervisor career.
When I first got there. I got rid of some
people who are no good you know, senters other units
they want to go to. I got some attitudes kind

(01:01:39):
of adjusted. And it's not Listen, a white comp isn't
better than black comps and better than white coup. But
you need you need some kind of a you need
a mix in there. You need you need different viewpoints,
you need different you just kind of need a little
more of a mix. I just think, like you know,
and they just it was a lot of just like

(01:02:02):
guys who were just saw this as like a oh
my god, we're the one thirty do it. I worked
in worse areas, and I'm sorry, bro, you know, like
I you know, I've been working worse areas. It's not
that you know, like it's not like you're saying it's
it's just not And it's like they had a little
too much of an attitude in some way some of
the guys. But it got better over the years, and

(01:02:24):
like by by the time I love, Like I would
say I worked the four to twelves for a couple
and one thirteen for like a year and a half,
and then I worked a mid shift, and then I
was on the day ship prime in the last four years,
and like by the time I left, I would say,
my cops were a lot of times your day shift
cops aren't as good. You know that guys want to
go home, but they were the best. There were some
best ones and a lot of good guys in the

(01:02:45):
four to twelve and a lot of guys guys in
the midnights. You know, there's a lot of great guys
there one thirty. But there were some some problem especially
when I first got there, there was there was a
lot of it was it was it you had to
just kind of stand up and say, look, this is
I'm not gonna talk at this, you know, and.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
As a patom commander, you had to you had to
set you had to kind of really set the tone
for house to go. I mean, it would have fell
on anybody with moral compass, but especially when you're the
person that's in charge technically speaking, all the more reason
to step in and kind of say, Okay, hey, this
is how it's gonna be. Whatever you thought before. No,
we're gonna pivot away from that because that's the experience
once again kicking in now. I got asked, I mean,

(01:03:22):
of course you were a cop at a university for
a few years, and no you didn't like that too much.
But that being said, I'm like, okay, sixteen years in
the p D side, you had two in Los Angeles.
I don't know if you vested out in Los Angeles.
Took whatever I had.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
I had. I had I had twenty because I had
seven military times. No, I had seventeen years and too
much in an NYPD, and I had two and a
half years ago, so about it was about twenty and then.
But I bought my military time back to retire from NYPD.
I had to because my kids were living in Massachusetts
and I I had to be out here for the Star.

(01:03:54):
I had to retire as soon as I could. I
did about twenty years. I did seventeen years and two
months in NYPD my military time back, so I did
extra two months basically after I bought my military time back.
But I I would have stayed.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
I loved the job, but I had seems like it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Yeah, I it was. I loved the all my cops knew.
I didn't want to leave, you know, I was. I
was working till my last day there I was.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
And you were in a good spot too, because I know, listen,
family's family. But hearing you talk and hearing the passion,
I'm like, I wonder what made them leave family? Of
course makes total sense because that's probably the spot. I'd
imagine circumstances being different than of course, and again it
was nothing bad. But if the circumstances were any different,
you'd probably still be in that spot right now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
I'd still be doing Yeah. So yeah I liked you know,
like yeah I I I Yeah, I would still be
doing it, you know, And it was a very it sucked.
I'm going to be you know, I became police officers
at university. I obviously knew more than everybody else. They
were not They didn't they they've read a lot of

(01:04:56):
police books and they've had a lot of training there.
They've told me that they know they they don't know how.
They don't have any common sense. They're not like cowards,
and they just have no common sense and they'd make
a lot of bad decisions and anytime I would say, no,
we're not we're doing it like this, Well, you're just
a police officer, you know. And they didn't like the
like I think they were a little threatened whatever, but

(01:05:17):
I don't like to get into that, but it just
they weren't a lot of them were not good people.
And there were some really good people there that I liked,
but a lot of them were not good people and
they couldn't be police officers in somewhere else, so they
chose that for a career or as guys who had
worked and being retired like me, but they retired from
like some of the richest areas in the country, and
they never really learned the job. And so it was.

(01:05:42):
There were some really great guys there, most of them
left to go to Boston PD or other departments around there.
You know, like there's some really good guys there, but
the overall was not a good environment. The supervision was
really bad, and they didn't know what they're doing, you know,
like they weren't gonna they were worried about me. If

(01:06:02):
they thought I was, they were gonna like promote me
really cool, because they didn't because I was doing more
than everyone else. You know. I would look at the
wanted posters that I grab people who wanted for like
serious stuff, and sometimes you know a lot of times
Boston will take them whatever, but they uh yeah, they
just uh, it wasn't a good experience. Like unless I
could be in charge of that. If I was like

(01:06:23):
in charge of that department, I would do of a
department like that, I would do it. But if I'm
not in charge of it, if I be in cop
even a sergeant, I would not do it because I
have to be able to say, look, what you're saying
is it's crazy and we're not doing this, you know, like,
and I would not have I I don't really regret

(01:06:45):
it because I learned a little bit about the Boston cran.
And I've been to Boston court. I've booked some people
in Boston. I'd you know, been to the court. I've
testified a couple of times of Boston. So I get
to see how the Boston you know, court's pretty similar,
you know, like on Boston how everywhere cif So it's
a good experience, and so I learned a little bit
about criminal justice. Boss. It's definitely different policing is definitely
different in Boston than it is in either La or

(01:07:09):
New York City.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
That's for sure. Another major city, another major city in
its own right. Christian Williams is asking had you I mean,
obviously you were happy being a lieutenant, as you just mentioned,
but was there a chance if you didn't retire in
twenty twenty that you would have eventually tried to take
the captain's tests or was that not on your radar?

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
I don't think so. Maybe now, like my body's breaking down,
you know, after all these years, I had a lot
of injuries over these like like maybe I would have,
but I would have, you know, tried to stay in
a priestct But I think I probably would have stayed
a lieutenant. Honestly, I I liked it, you know, like
you do have a lot of authorities a lieutenant. I
didn't like having to go I had to go to
platoon commanders meetings. I didn't like those, you know, talk

(01:07:47):
to the chiefs and stuff. But then you also had
to go to the Borrow traffics That would suck. But
as a captain, you got to go to all the
commstat meetings, you got to go to the traffic sam
means you gotta you know, and I had to go
as a lieutenant, but you're the main guy for a
lot of stuff, and then as an inspector as the CEO,
there's a lot of stuff you gotta do that I
just wasn't my favorite. I had copies to make fun

(01:08:09):
of me because he'd be like Goldstein's always the first
person at every homicide, but as soon as the chiefs
start coming, he lieutenant. The lieutenant always got to go
somewhere out. But it's like, you know, like I I
think I always had that fear of I don't know.
I think it's because luck, I was never in a
war and nothing like that. But I went through the
Marine enlisted boot camp, and I went through the officer

(01:08:31):
boot camp, right, and then it went through the l
A p. D Academy and the NYPD Academy and and
you know, so I've been through so many of these
things that I'm just I have a like a certain
fear of authority that I just don't like pop knobbing
with the with the with the chiefs. I'm not the
guy who's gonna like Some of them who knew me
were like, oh, that's just gold Steam. They like whatever.

(01:08:52):
But I'm not the guy who's gonna be like, hey, chief,
how's your you know, blah blah blah, like I I
just it's not my I just can't like. I just
I know some great street cops who went all the
way up and are good with that. But I just like,
I don't. I think it's that that whole food kid,
that whole like fear that I just don't like it

(01:09:15):
that much. So I don't think I would have become
a captain. I don't think so I might have, but
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
I don't blame you. I don't blame you before we
hit the rabbid fire. Of course, there is your book,
Another Body in Brooklyn? What made you want to write it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
So? I've read it for a long time. Actually, I
also write science fiction. I wrote I published a book
of short coup fiction not six seven years ago. I
took it offline because I'm re doing some of the stories.
I'm just re editing it. But the Another about in Brooklyn,
I kind of I wanted to write a book that

(01:09:50):
it centers mostly on patrol, this detective stuff in there
in patrol, but that eight gives a realistic view of
life in a busy police area and a busy precinct.
Now I didn't I just covered. I was just concerned
with the New York nypdos, just concerned with Brooklyn in it.
But it you know, it's it's pretty, It's somewhat universal

(01:10:13):
in a lot of ways, and I wanted to we're
a realistic, but also make it exciting and you know,
kind of like a little funny. Sometimes you see the
cop humor you have to take make humor and stuff,
you know whatever, and also to kind of just give
an idea of what cops are facing on a daily basis,
because you know, say, all right, a lot of a

(01:10:34):
lot of books are just like there's a homicide, and
so you have this gumshoe detective who's like he's he's
all by some of this. But like, you know, you
go to a homicide scene, right, you got a guy dead,
and you stabilize the scene and you're looking for witnesses,
and they say, oh, there's a guy shot three blocks over.
Someone's got to go to that too. You got to
watch this scene, but then you got to go to
that one too, and then you know you could be

(01:10:58):
you know, like even the detective if it was concerned. Okay.
The way the NPD works, it is like they rotate
so detectible catch a homicide, every you know whatever. They
rotate it right. But and then homicide helps them out.
The homicide bureau helps them out. But they're very good,
very good. But you know, the guy's got other cases.
So you know, since this guy got murdered, it's like

(01:11:21):
a month ago, he's got two others. He's got three
robberies he investigating. He's two shootings. The cops have been
to three shootings since then. It's like a lot of
stuff goes on in the city, and so it's like
cops have to make a lot of decisions and you
don't aways make the right one, and you try to.
You try to usually make the right one, but some

(01:11:42):
things will happen that you're like, how could that possibly happen?
I'll tell you what happened. They didn't have enough people there.
They didn't have enough people there. They I a would
always tell people, you know what, we didn't get to
your call for three hours year of a traffic accident.
I'm so sorry, but I was a lieutenant when I
do this. I had to do all these investigations in
the cops and I tell you know what, tell them
the NYPD that there's thirty six thousand cups in this

(01:12:04):
department and eighteen thousand of amork and in a city
of jobs, everyone should be on the street or detectives.
I say, that's why, because you don't have enough people
to hold the crimes, hold the crime sep probably sometimes
you know, people are crowding in and you have to
fight with people to keep the crime scene, you know, sterile,

(01:12:24):
so to speak. You have ems going through you know this,
you ms, you're going through their kicking showcasings. It's gonna happen.
There's nothing you can do. You know. You gotta save
the boss care. Yeah, you gotta save the life first.
But once you want to get ems in and out
as quick as possible and that and then you know,

(01:12:45):
just keep it as you know, if you if you
have the presence in mind to do it. Takes some pictures,
if you get there before you mess, take some pictures
because you know things are gonna a little different. There's
gonna be gloves on the ground now, you know, less
disposable gloves. You know, there's gonna things are gonna go
a little different. Yeah, there's gonna be bloody footprints maybe
you know, like it's it's gonna look a little different,
so you know, but there's so much stuff going on

(01:13:06):
in a big city that you know, you can't really
just I didn't want to write a story about a
homicide where it's just it's just that I'm dealing with
all the other things. And also it kind of gets
in back to what I was talking to before that,
you know, throughout the thing, and there's a lot of
a lot of actions, like but realistic kind of stuff,
and throughout the end, the main character, he's a good guy.

(01:13:29):
He's always a good cop, he's a good hard worker.
But he kind of realizes that, like you know, like
I was saying before, you know, every life matters, like
regardless of how it was lived. That's not really your
job as a cop to worry about how the guy
lived his life. When he's a homicide victim, you know,
your job is to do your best you can for
that person. And you know, everyone's got people who care

(01:13:51):
about them. And he kind of realizes that if you
start if you start being like, well, I'm gonna care
about this victim, but I'm not gonna care about that victim.
It's like a sometimes you're gonna be wrong and you
should have cared about this victim. But it's easier to
just be like, I'm just gonna care about every situation
because this way, I'm just I'm on the right side

(01:14:13):
and you know, I can understand what the family's going
through and all that kind of stuff. Look, some families
are assholes. Looks some family will come curse you out.
They're career you know, generations of criminals. I'm not talking
about that, but I'm talking about sometimes you have to
have some you have to have some empathy. You know,
no one wants to be told that they're a piece
of garbage. I mean, you have to have some empathy
for people. And you know, you might say, well, your

(01:14:35):
son was running with gangs since he was twelve years old.
You know what he think's gonna happen, he said. No
one wants to hear that they just lost somebody they loved.
You know, you have to be a little bit you know,
compassionate with people, and you kind of just have to
just be like, look, it is the job. The job
is the job. There are times when someone will call me,
call us and they're not a good guy. I've arrested

(01:14:56):
this guy before, but this time he's in the right
and I got to help. It isn't ever any warrants.
He's in the right, and I got to help him.
He's being illegally evicted. I gotta help him because he's
in the right. You know, I mean, I mean, you
know it is what it is. I mean so, but
I wanted to get that. I think I've had a
lot of good reception about a lot of cops so

(01:15:17):
I'm talked to in a long time. I've called me
black Yoh this is so good, which I really appreciate.
I hope people buy the book. You're not going to
read a more realistic police book, I don't think than
another body in Brooklyn. It's I do try to show
the job, the warts and all. I love the job.
But look, I had a lot of issues with the department,

(01:15:38):
with any department, you know, I've talked about them on
this show. But I love the job. I think it's
one of the greatest jobs in the world, being a
police officer in busy place, and I really do think
it's one of the greatest jobs in the world. But
I did want to show, like the positive and the negative,
and also how you could kind of sometimes work around
the negative and sometimes you have to just go right

(01:15:58):
through it and just see where everything falls, you know,
and that that's what I tried to do. But I
I you know, I don't know if you've got a
chance to read it yet, but I'm yeah, yeah, schedule has.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
Been so crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Oh yeah, I know, it's like crazy, yeah yeah, but yeah,
like I've gotten a lot of positiveedback. So even people
who are never been cops, like some older people read
I really love this. So yeah, I hope uh more
people get in and you know, like I have all
this stuff, I'm coming down the pike and yeah, but
I mean, I I definitely think that you'll definitely get

(01:16:33):
a good idea of what it's like policing in an
urban area when you when when you read.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
The book, well, listening between calls on the booglele bus.
You know, I'm gonna pack start packing books in my lunchbox.
So I'll be looking forward.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
To M E. M. S is a tough jump, especially,
I'm I'm sure you get a lot of overdoses and
all that stuff, and it's you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
Know, you get some of your frequent flyers too, just
like you get a CD, get them the same thing
in FD and E M S. So uh, you know, listen,
I'm paying my dues until I can hopefully get out
to the fire department.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
So that's great. Yeah, that's a lot of guys do that.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
Yeah, in police department too. It's a good stepping zone
if you want to do either. More so, you know,
definitely learning a lot. But I will be reading Another
Body in Brooklyn, of which I've linked in the description
of this episode for those of you that are interested
in buying it. There's even a website too, and I
also linked that in a description of this episode as well.
We're gonna get to the rapid fire. But first a
word from our friends once again. You heard them earlier today,
you'll hear them again. Armor tough. Firehouse floors take a

(01:17:28):
beating rigs, rolling in gear, drop down chemicals, and spills
every single day. That's why departments nationwide are choosing Armor tough.
Armor tough of POxy floors are built for fire stations,
slip resistant, chemical resistant, easy to clean, and tough enough
to handle anything the job throws at them. It's more
than just the floor it's a safer, sharper and more

(01:17:51):
professional foundation for your house. And here's the bonus. Armor
Tough is an authorized dealer for Groves, So if gear racks,
ppe extractors, or dry or what you're after, you'll find
them here. Heavy discounts apply for getting salty listeners, So
install an Armor Tough floor and get Groves products at
dealer cost. Armor Tough built for firefighters, built to last. Alrighty.

(01:18:16):
And that brings us into the rapid fire five hit
run questions for me five hit run answers from you,
So I'll ask you too, because we didn't talk about
your LAPD years too much tonight. The first question rapid
fire in those two years, The most intense moment you
had while serving as a police officer in Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
In LA I mean there was. I mean there was
one time the kid had done a shooting and he
started to turn to me with towards me with the
gun and I was close to shooting him and he
dropped out of the last second. I mean there was.
I got dragged by a car one time. Stupidly he listen,
who is a friendly car? I get dragged by a

(01:18:56):
car when I tore up my arms. I thought I
was dead, and then I, oh, I'm okay, and then
we're kept chasing the guy. But I think the what
I say, the you know, so my worst my first
year over there, I was in south central l A.
And it was busy. I was trained by some of
the some of the best cops in the country, honestly,
and I don't say that like I was just I

(01:19:17):
was fortunate that some of the guys I worked were like, uh,
guys who are like legends on that department. And you
know l A p D. The look it's a little different.
NYPD is is more of a numbers and it's more
of a you know, l A p D. You got
guys who are like legendary cops who are like you know.
They they're like you know, And so I was fortunate

(01:19:39):
that I got trained by some of those guys, uh,
who are really good. I would say, though, the the
you know, your most harrowing things, it's not things happen
too quick. Someone starts fighting with you, you're chasing somebody. It's
not you don't have enough time to get that nervous. Usually,
even you hear a gunshots start running down the street,

(01:20:00):
you don't really have time to get that. The scaredest
I've been, honestly is like, and this has happened at
least a dozen times in my career, probably more, when
somebody's holding a baby or a very small child and
you're gonna have to arrest them or take them in
for a cy cold or something like that, and they're
basically using the baby as a as a shield. And

(01:20:24):
you know, at that moment, you care a lot more
about that baby than they do, okay, and so you
know you have to be really careful. There are times
when you could just kind of grab it, but you
know you kind of like feel it, like Okay, I
got it. I guess it's good. But the times they're
not gonna watch you, you can't. And then you have
to talk to them. It's like it's almost like a

(01:20:45):
hostage situation really because you know it's their kid, well
why why is my kid? But you know you're walking
on thees that you're walking on the side of the
van Wick Expressway at eight in the morning, you no wallet,
no cell phone, just with the baby. People eight cold
people called on you. I know what you're gonna do.

(01:21:07):
I know you were gonna jump in front of car
with a baby. We need to take you to the hospital.
We need to check on this baby. You know, it's like,
you know, it's tense, you're you're more concerned. All they
got to do is drop that baby. And they're not
thinking right now, well that's the problem they're gonna have
for the rest of their lives. All they're thinking is
I'm mad, and you know you're you know whatever I had,

(01:21:29):
you know, like I remember one thing. I remember this
because we just gotten the cameras. I had met the
cameras the last year and a half, the body cams
with this guy. He beat the beat his z X
really badly beat her up. She comes in, she's so bruised,
she's crying. Took the baby now, he's never expressed any
interest in this baby before. It's a common thing. You're

(01:21:53):
not gonna see him again. I'm going down to North
Carolina with the baby. He's the baby's father. It's not kidnapping. However,
you have to get that baby back in me because
I've seen when has it when it's gone.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
Wrong, when it doesn't turn out too well. Yeah, right, but.

Speaker 2 (01:22:06):
You can't put it on a numberwork. He has custody,
just like she does. You're gonna have a hard time.
It's gonna you're gonna have to run the rings to
get an amberwork or to like this happens. This happened
to me at least fifteen twenty times in my career,
like like this exact situation, and I gotta go, I go,
want to go get the baby now because I'm not
gonna be the one. I've seen other cops screw that

(01:22:27):
up and they didn't act quick enough, and something bad
happened to baby. Most likely nothing's gonna happen, but something
sometimes does and they kill whatever. So I remember she's crying,
she's I said, so I had been by the precinct
that and she came walked into the precinct and so
one of the community fairs, let me talk to you
in private. I said, no, no, no, no, ma'am, where is
he now? And she's like, I'm crying. I said, man,

(01:22:50):
stop crying. Where is he right now? Because a lot
of times they know where he's gonna go, I said,
where is he running? He's her ex, but she knows
his game plan. Of course, it is his mother. Where
is he right now? We probably went to his mom's house.
Because she sometimes he's never seen the baby, but she
sometimes watches the baby, and he's probably his mom. Let's
go there right now. He's probably gonna go there before
he goes down south. Let's go there right now. Crying,

(01:23:12):
I said, stop, I need you to point him out.
When we see him. We get there, We get him
just in time. He's walking to a car. He's holding
the baby. Get there. The guy's bad, dude, won criminal history.
He but young, relatively young. He's like, he's not giving
the baby up. I'm like, sir, please, just please, we
couldn't you just give one of us the baby, not

(01:23:33):
the have the the you know, like, no, why am
I gonna be arrested? I said, listen, sir, We're not
gonna talk about it right now. I'm concerned about the baby.
That's the most important thing. And you know, it took
me like five minutes to just like real like, but
eventually we're able to get the baby away. Then he
fought us.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
Why wouldn't he? Why wouldn't he?

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
The sain thing is we got the baby way. I
was in a bad position too. Once we got the baby.
I was right in front of his face. But the
importing thing is like, you know, you get the baby.
And I told the girl after said listen, I'll cry
with you now. I'll be we'll have tea and biscus now.
But in that situation, like a lot of times, like
especially when you have the you know woman man situation,

(01:24:11):
they know where he they know how he escapes from
the mess of months, they know where he's going to go.
You gotta get that immediately as quick as you can,
especially with the kid involve because you've got to get
those kids back, you know. And yeah, and sometimes cops really,
let's go, let's go take this to the tective squad,
and they can say no, you got to do it quick,

(01:24:31):
you know. And and that's the problem that a lot
of people make.

Speaker 1 (01:24:34):
You gotta sometimes it's better askwer forgiveness and permission. So
and that was one of those instances where you did
some of these questions I don't even have to ask
in the rapid fire because he kind of answered them already.
But one of the ones I didn't want to ask
you is the second question the rapid fire of what's
going to be an abbreviated one because you covered some
of the questions earlier, is you were in addition to
being Sergeant in the year, you were Copy of the
Month three times Sergeant in the Year again, even though,
like you talked about earlier, is for a dark reason.

(01:24:55):
It is nice to get an award like that because
he did make a different same thing with cop of
the Month. So what did those respective awards meaning you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
I gotta say, if I could have done certain things
in my career different, I would have. I was always like,
I wrote a couple of things up at the beginning
of my career, and some really good grids things I did,
and they gave me like the lowest level of So
after that, I never wrote anything up and I never
wanted any stuff. So I began governed the month. I
was kind of like, I never went to the things

(01:25:24):
and I actually made it three other times, but I
didn't go to it and I didn't I if I
if I could, if I could do it over, I
would have. I was the kind of person I didn't
like stuff like that. I just said, I do my
job and blah blah blah blah blah. I said a
couple of times. This only happened a couple of times.
Like people reached out to me to write stories about
something that happened, and I didn't do it because I said, no,

(01:25:47):
you know what I'm I thought I was above all that.
Now when you retired, then you realize, oh shoot, you
know I could have had all this stuff. I could
have haddle this documentation of this and that, Like I
know what I did. People I worked for know ed,
people I worked with ed. Like I'm not saying I
was the greatest, but I did a lot of good
stuff like a lot of us do. And then when
you retire, you kind of realize, oh shoot, but I

(01:26:09):
mean I can write my resume right, but I can't
say this then because I can't prove it, you know
what I'm saying. And it's like then you realize, oh shoot,
I should have been a lot more aggressive about myself
in terms of like you know, I was always like
I would be like, yeah, I go grab that guy,
you're an idiot, But like I wasn't like big on

(01:26:30):
you know, like that that self getting better, like that
whole Harvard mentality or whatever. If I could go back,
I would have I would have done that more because like,
you know, I'm at a time now you know, I
went to Boston not knowing anyone, and I had to
do it for my kids. And you know, I got
a job that was not good for I was way
overqualified for and wasn't good for me. And you know,

(01:26:51):
so if I could, uh, you know, I I think
I would have done things a little. I would have
like been told those cop of the month ceremonies that
I would have like any quote times someone wanted to
talk to me about something or write something that I
would have done it, like if I if I had
it to do over again.

Speaker 1 (01:27:08):
I don't blame me for that, definitely. What's one case
that stuck you know? Third question Rabbit for our case
that stuck with you long after it was over for
a good or bad reason. Either were a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
Of the stuff that sticks with you is things you
messed up or things that didn't go right. Because when
things go right, it's just like, okay, went right, it's
all good. But when something doesn't go right, it's like
you you remember it, Like I was, like, Uh, one
thing that sticks in mind this is this guy did

(01:27:39):
a homicide and we knew he was gonna come back
to this location. So me and this guy was working
with that. There was Sergeant bedste works let's go over
there and see if he's over there. Let's let's go
try and grab And this is a homstick like he
was actively being looked at. Warrence is looking. We think
he might go back to this location. So we didn't
have anyone watch in the back because I didn't have
anyone else, so it was just me and him, right,
we had some watching back, so we this door. They

(01:28:01):
let us in, and turns out we've made a friend.
He went out the back when we were talking to
the people. We didn't have anyone who could have watched
the back, and so they I got a citizen complained
about it because then they tried to say that they
didn't tell me I could. Then the mother came down,
you can't be in my house. But I was there
legally they let me in, but I got another citizens
complaining on it. It wasn't substantiated, but it always But

(01:28:23):
because we'd had done that and they made we made
such a big stink, they turned them in that night,
you know, to the midnight because the midnight cop got
the call. You know, I don't care who gets the.

Speaker 1 (01:28:31):
Go, but you know, as long as the guy goes.

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
So all I got was negative stuff out of it
because I got to you know, but we did help
and again, you know, stuff like that. Or I've had
guys walk awa acasto me. It's like I realized, I'm
looking at a surveillance photo. Oh the rubbery suspect walk
right past me. I didn't realize. You know, that happens,
you know, like and you feel like an idiot, you know,
like I you know, like this. You don't remember all

(01:28:54):
the times that I said, oh there's the gray, you
grab the guy. You remember the time you look like
an idiot and didn't grab the guy or you made
so a lot of it. A lot of the stuff
that sticks with you is that kind of stuff. But
one thing that I think, uh, sticks with me is
I remember as a lieutenant, I had to do a
lot of you know, uh investigations. Not only you know

(01:29:16):
what you're doing criminal, but you're doing cops would get complaints,
right they come wait, either they didn't do the job
properly or this or that or most of the time
they're not true, right, but you or it was an
honest mistake, Like I know, the you know, the cops
were work for you because you're out you should be

(01:29:36):
out on the streets with them. You should see how
they're doing the job, so you know, so it's just
an honest mistake. But there was a couple of times
that I got out of those. So what I would
always do is, let's say someone's hanging outside or the
cops should have taken a report on this, and I'm like,
you know what, yeah, that's kind of they should have.
I go do it, And we had some I had

(01:29:57):
a very good arrest just by doing that, and like,
it wasn't anything wrong about the cop with the cop
did but you know, it's just like they made a
mistake that I might have made, you know, But rather
than just saying your cop did something, or like just
saying no, my cops are perfect, you know, you're just
an idiot, But why don't you solve the person's problem, right,

(01:30:18):
That's that's the best way to a lot. And one
I got, I got one time I got a homiceice,
but one time I got a one time I got that.
I just happened to be there to arrest the lady,
and I wound up she had been renting the same
apartment out to ten different single mothers with children who
were all already changed their bus routes. She was taking

(01:30:38):
the first and security deposits, so like five thousand dollars
these poor single women with kids. And she kept saying
putting it off ten different people. It wasn't even her house.
She rented this one apartment to ten different people. No
one could ever move in. I wound up because I
wound up arresting her for writing a bad check, which
is the first time I've risen for fraud. But I

(01:31:00):
never wrote someone of writing a bad check before. That's
not something you normally do. But I looked it up. Yeah,
technically we could do that. Because I did that. We
saw the thing that she had ten different women she
was run think that she would have kept doing it
to all these different people that were never going to
be able to move in there and really getting screwed over. Yeaheah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
And so that was an instance where again head ahead
of the game, good thinking, good understanding, you know, I
was able to lead to a good outcome in that
instance where oh we can do that, you know again
it goes It's kind of a nineteen forty style enforcement,
but it still exists. It's never been taken off the books.

Speaker 2 (01:31:33):
And the last question in rapid fire.

Speaker 1 (01:31:35):
Because one of them. Again, I asked you this question earlier,
which was a leadership lesson you took from the Marine
Corps and law enforcement. You covered that well. So it's
an abbreviated rapid fire where when you look back between
the LAPD and the NYPD and again, really really good
twenty year law enforcement career. Of course you had the
Marine Corps in there too. You survived a lot, you

(01:31:55):
made it to the finish line. Not a lot of
people do. Like we've talked about the show, a lot
of guys and girls as dangerous. They get killed doing
this job. So if you had to define these years
between Los Angeles and New York City and a sentence,
how would you define them?

Speaker 3 (01:32:08):
Well?

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
And I actually had the four years as the campus
cop too, So I mean that's you know, I just yeah,
I know you didn't like it, but there was some
some things that happened, you know, But I'm I would
say that the you know, mainly those twenty years, you know,
like and mainly I would say that I learned, you know,
you just you always got to say yourself, my heart

(01:32:30):
was in the right, I cared, I wasn't thinking about
myself or trying to be selfish. I was just trying
to do the job that as best I could, and
I whether it was in my best interest or not,
because I know, the more stuff you do, the more
complaints you're gonna get. You're gonna get complaints, You're gonna
get things, especially when you go into someone's house and

(01:32:52):
you say, listen, why is there no food in your refrigerator?
You got three kids, you have, You're wearing two hundred
dollars sneakers, but there's no food in your fridge. And
the kids where they're sleeping, you have, you have, you
have a metal box springs on the floor. You know.
When you're doing stuff like that and you're saying, what
is wrong with this? There's something going on. You're gonna

(01:33:13):
make some people don't like you. Yeah, everyone likes the
good guy. Everyone likes nobody likes the home monitor. But
if your home monitor a little petty, that's not good.
But if you're someone saying, listen, oh, well, the cops
let me go. These other eight times I drove drunk
with my kids in the car, Well, guess what, I'm
not the cool cop. I'm not letting you go, you know,

(01:33:35):
And so then people are like, Oh, I don't like
that guy. You all the other cops got me go,
so you know. Yeah, So, I mean, you're not always
a lot of times you're gonna be respected. You're not
always gonna be liked for doing the right thing. Same
thing with cops, they're mostly I tried to look out
for my cause if I knew they were good cops,
I would look out for them one hundred percent. People
will make mistakes, but if somebody was bad, they were bullyed,

(01:33:57):
they were nasty, you know, you have to sometimes you
have to put your foot down, you know. And it's
a lot of people don't because they want to be
everyone's friend, or they say, I look out for my people.
No matter what, you look up for your people, you
teach them to do things the right way, you won't
have too many problems. But if you get someone who
you let him do things the wrong way the whole time,
you can have a lot of problems and that person's

(01:34:17):
not gonna be good for the community, not at all.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
This has been a great episode. Stick around. We're going
to talk off the air before I say goodbye to
the audience, though, Dave, if you have any shoutouts to
anybody that you want to give the floors yours.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):
I never I never had the opportunity, I guess, so
I'm probably done with long Enforce, probably after, you know,
like I left the campus a couple of months ago.
So I would say, I want to thank the people
who trained me originally in LA I learned so much
from those guys, really great street cups, and I want

(01:34:51):
to thank, you know, just all the people I worked
with over the years. And I've made mistakes. Maybe sometimes
I said something that wasn't nice, but I, you know,
my heart wasn't the right place. I always try to
look up. I tried to do the right thing. And
you know, nobody, nobody's perfect, but I, you know, I
just everyone calls me and says the job sucks now

(01:35:11):
this and that. But you know what, they were saying
that ten years ago. So it's like, you know, ten
years ago, twenty years ago, whenever, you know, they were
saying the job sucks. So it's like you got to
kind of put that in perspective a little bit. I
think it just kind of realized, and you know, you're
lucky to have the job. It's a pretty good job.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
You know, it's a very good job. It's a very
good job if you're able to get it and hold
on to it. Of course, like I said, stick around.
We'll talk off here. Thanks to everybody tune in tonight,
not only for this show, but of course our show
this morning with FD and Y Commissioner Tucker. It's not
often that we do doubleheaders. Used to do them a lot,
but I don't do them as much now, but circumstances changed,
and of course I had to do them. So no
show this Friday. I'm working on the ambulance, and your

(01:35:51):
shifts are kind of all over the place when you
work ems so I don't want to market the next show.
It's just because I don't know when my next day
off is going to be right now. Hopefully I'm off Monday.
Then we'll have a show Monday, and then we'll take
a break for the rest of the week. But again,
thank you very much for everybody who tuned in tonight
and again earlier this morning. The outro song that you

(01:36:11):
heard or you're gonna hear if you listen to this
morning's episode, I didn't introduce it was from their nineteen
ninety eight album Dizzy Up The Girl. The Google Dolls
would slide but for this episode from their iconic nineteen
ninety four album super Unknown, Soundgarden plays us out tonight
with fell on Black Days in the meantime on behalf
of retired New York City Police lieutenant and formerly of
course Los Angeles Police Department officer and author. On top

(01:36:35):
of that, David Goldstein, Mike Cologne, we will see you
next time. Take care everyone and have a great rest
of your night.

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
Great restler, thank.

Speaker 3 (01:36:42):
You, thank you, come to life or two ever I fall?

(01:37:07):
We came about line just well.

Speaker 4 (01:37:12):
Everyday seemed to beat them after smile.

Speaker 5 (01:37:18):
Sos about two three, nown do valentime, Now do valentime.

Speaker 3 (01:37:34):
Ca the fir black day until that day. Let unto
elver of c to come now.

Speaker 5 (01:37:58):
You toilb a crator, Uncle you subs not soul. Let
see rocket.

Speaker 6 (01:38:11):
Scene in the night.

Speaker 5 (01:38:13):
I'm over the sea when I get a ride, when
I get ride.

Speaker 3 (01:38:33):
Like about black is, I know that this could be.
I know that this could be.

Speaker 4 (01:39:13):
See what you wanted to see? Goods made you know
what you wanted to be?

Speaker 3 (01:39:35):
Wassmady and.

Speaker 5 (01:39:40):
Don't you lie up stones and with you wanted to
sit five hands up.

Speaker 4 (01:39:48):
The shady You know not tied, knock tied.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
So so.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
Let's sun change said, don't mind the change. D A.

Speaker 5 (01:40:28):
Bill Bluday, I know, let this.

Speaker 6 (01:40:38):
Good name stay. No, let its god name fa. No,
that that's gonna beam, now that that's gonna be

Speaker 3 (01:41:10):
She many two

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 386: Lieutenant David Goldstein (LAPD/NYPD)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Episode 386: Lieutenant David Goldstein (LAPD/NYPD)

Stuff You Should Know