Episode 389: Tales From The Boom Room: 1995 Freddy’s Fashion Mart Massacre (Volume 39)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to the Mike to Do Even podcast hosted
by media personality and consultant Mike Glow. This is the

(00:43):
New York Police Department's Bomb Squad, part human fond, part dog,
part robot. All one team lethal and indiscriminate.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
To disarm one is to save countless lives.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
The Bomb Squad has given the all he's in.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
The members of the oldest and biggest bomb squad in
the United States are.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Uniquequad was able to safely remove a device when you
don't see them.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
The NYPD Bomb Squad is always watching for that unsuspecting threat.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
And YPD Bomb Squad racing in and hauling away another
suspicious packing properly identified.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
You're listening to Tales from the boom Room Profiles and
the nypds are some explosion bombs. Before I had anything else, really,
I had tails from the boom room and that know.
We welcome you back, ladies and gentlemen for what's a
special episode for me, because again it's the return of

(01:42):
a mini series. We haven't done it in a long time.
You know, there's a couple that I haven't gotten into recently.
I haven't gotten into my hostess Negotiation mini series in
a while, and I hadn't done Tails from the boom
Room really since late last year, so it's fitting that
when we bring it back tonight, we're bringing back, uh,
not only somebody who helped me start the mini series,
but somebody's been on the podcast the most times, as
we were talking about off air, out of anybody, and

(02:04):
that is, of course, the co executive producer and creator
of this mini series will introduce momentarily, but welcome back,
ladies and gentlemen to this episode of the mic the
New Haven Podcast. If you haven't checked out the previous one,
that was episode three eighty eight with Bob Pressler and
that was vall you made another milestone that we hit
the best of the bravest interviews with the FD and
hys Elite. Bop did nineteen years with the FD and
Y before venturing onto other endeavors around the country between

(02:27):
teaching and serving in the field, so that was fun.
And again, this is a special edition tonight of this
particular mini series that we'll dive into in just a moment,
but as always, a couple of ads to run, and fittingly, tonight,
we're going to start with the ad of a man
who of course, is coming on the show momentarily, and
that's the Ryan Investigative Group. Why not. The Mike the

(02:49):
New Haven Podcast is proudly sponsored and supported by the
Ryan Investigative Group. If you need an elite PI, look
no further than the elite Ryan Investigative Group, which is
run by tired NYP Detective Bill Ryan, a twenty year
veteran of the Department who served the majority of his
career in the detective Bureau, most notably in the Arsen
explosion squad. So if you need a PI to handle
anything from fraud, legal services, and anything else that you

(03:12):
might require, contact Bill at three four seven four one
seven sixteen ten. Again three four seven four one seven
sixteen ten reach them at his website or the email
that you see here. Again, if you need a PI,
look no further than Bill Ryan and the Ryan Investigative
Through a proud supporter and sponsor of the Mike de
Newhaven Podcast prod supporter and sponsor indeed, and of course

(03:34):
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at dealer cost. Armor Tough, built for firefighters, built to last. Okay, Well, again,
like I said, interesting episode tonight thirty years ago today,
really one of the forgotten tragedies of New York City,
and really one of the forgotten tragedies of the nineties,

(04:37):
given there was a lot of other major events that
happened in the city there in that decade turns thirty
years old today. What am I talking about? Well, it
was a devastating fire bombing brought on by controversial rhetoric
and tension in a time in which you were seeing
a lot of degradation and really breakdowns not only throughout
the country but especially in certain subcommunities of New York

(04:57):
City in terms of race relations. And that mana infested
with a terrifying act of mass murder that took place
thirty years ago today on December eighth of nineteen ninety
five over in the Harlem section of Manhattan at Freddy's
Fashion Mark, when a madman walked in there armed with
both weapons to cause fire and of course a fire arm,
and ended up murdering seven people before killing himself and
a devastating, once again active mass murder and suicide. Many

(05:21):
agencies responded, of course, the NYPD being chief among them,
and the Arson Explosion Squad was tasked with investigating well
the who, what went where, and why of it all.
And as my next guest, who I'm going to introduce
the moment, has often told me, both on here and off,
the bomb Squad does to what, but really it's the
Arson Explosion Squad that does to who. He was there
for many a big case throughout his twenty years in

(05:43):
the NYPD especially is thirteen in A and E or
eleven I should say in A and E and that
returning to the program once again, Tails and Boom Room
co executive creator and producer Tired NYPD detected Bill Ryan
for this special edition of Tails in the Boom Room
profiles the NYPD's arson explosion in Bomb Squad as we
looked back tonight on the Freddy's Fashion Mark Massacre of
nineteen ninety five. Billy, good to see again, my friend Mike.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Always the pleasure, Thanks for having me on yet again,
Always the pleasure. Happy to talk to you and talk
to the fans of the show out there. And I
just want to take a minute and just say, because
it is Tales from the Boom and congratulate our friend
Mark Tory. He just retired as the CEO of the
Bomb Squad. So Mark, congratulations, enjoy your retirement.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, congratulations to Mark. The longest serving CEO of the
Bomb Squad's ever had. I don't think anybody's breaking his record.
He came in after our friend Jerry Sheen retired in
two thousand and two. He stayed there from two thousand
and two up until recently, so twenty three years more
than that when you count his time, I believe as
a sergeant in the unit. He got there right after well,
right around the time you got to A and E
is when he got to the bomb squad. And that's

(06:49):
where you know stands for that brief period of time
where he was your bosson A and HE he's always
been in the bomb squad.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, you know, Jerry she and Mark Toy were both
CEOs of both the Explosion Squad and the bomb Squad.
So they had a great perspective on both handles of it.
And you know, that's very helpful when you're having you know,
you got to do the what, we got to do
the who, but you have people that understand that breakdown
and who's got to do what? They help both sides

(07:16):
work more effectively together. So I was fortunate to have
people like that as my bosses.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, and hopefully down the road to listen, Jerry's been
on the show, as you know, Hopefully I'll give Mark
a little bit of time to catch his breath, which
he hasn't been able to do since nineteen ninety three
when he got into the bomb squad the first time.
But hopefully down the road, Mark's sitting in your seat
right now and him and I are having a conversation
about all the things he did and solved with the
course of his tenure, and of course both units. Now
we were talking about it a little bit off the air,
and like I said, this is a special edition in

(07:43):
the program tonight, not just for the mini series, but
the fact that we're looking back at a specific incident.
Early nineties New York is a cultural melting pot, and
usually that's set in a positive context and there's positives
to it, not so much when you look at what
was going on. So nineteen ninety one was Crown Heights
and that was a two race riot where a Jewish
man unintentionally ran down to seven year old black children,

(08:04):
one of them died. The next year, ninety two, Mike
O'Keefe shoots as a shootout with Keigo Garcia, who's trying
to kill him. He kills Keiko in the shootout that
turned into a race thing, which was unfair to Mike.
But that's a different story for a different day. And
really since then, not counting what happened at the Trade
Center in ninety three, there had just been simmering tensions
that never really went away after either ninety one or

(08:28):
ninety two. Now before we get to the eighth of
December of ninety five itself. You know this story very well.
Of course you were there. Give the audience not familiar
with this the context. As far as what was going
on in that Harlem neighborhood around the time leading up
to the massacre.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Well, like you so rightly said by it was a
time of hot racial tensions. We also have to bring
in the Korean boycott and Brooklyn that was also going on,
and you know, there was a lot of protesting going on.
But as it relates to Freddie's, the store was Freddie's
Fashion Mark. They were kind of like a John Bargains

(09:07):
Jarnes bargain store type of a store. They sold you know,
discount clothing, had big bins of socks and whatever. You know.
It was just an inexpensive place to shop. And they
had been there for a while and the landlord for
the property was a church, a United House of the People,
and Freddie's had leased a small portion of their store

(09:32):
to a guy named Shanghai Shanghae who opened up a
store called the Record Shack. It was a very popular
record store in the community. They had a lot of
events there. But when the church was going over the
lease of the property. They wanted to discontinue the Record
Shacks lease with Freddy's and they were forcing him to,

(09:55):
you know, cut the lease and have Freddie's expand in
to what was the Record Shack and make it one
bigger store. And I think there was some problems too
with with you know, him paying rent, and I think
that he was paying three thousand and raised him to
four thousand. And you know, he's a small store selling records.
He just knew he wasn't going to be able to

(10:16):
make that kind of rent. But somehow this economic dispute
went racial. You know, Shanky went to Al Sharpton and
the National Action Network and was complaining that they were
getting forced off the block. And again this Sharpton was

(10:36):
coming hot off of the Korean boycott in Brooklyn and
on behalf of the Record Shack. They started protesting in
front of the store, and I don't think they had
a lot of support. They were getting like twenty or
thirty people coming to day, but you know, they were
very animated and very aggressive. You know, they would go

(10:58):
into the store and you know, yell at them. They
would have confrontations with the security guard in the store.
You know, they would say things like, you know, we're
going to burn the Jews out the store. Freddie's was
run by a Jewish family. Fred Harry was the owner
of it, and it was it was pretty tough. All

(11:18):
the people working in the store except for Freddie himself,
you know, there were people of color. The guard was
it was a black man, and most of the employees
in the place were Hispanic women. And uh, you know
where they were going in every day, you know, they
were getting called all kinds of racial slurs, and it
got bad enough that you know, the Biased Investigative Unit,

(11:40):
which eventually became the Hate Unit, ended up taking an
investigation on it, a case dealing with the protest and uh,
you know, you got some pretty hot things that were said.
And eventually even Al Sharpton, you know, came and I
don't think he came a great many times, but you know,

(12:00):
one of the times he was there, you know, he
was saying, we you know, calling the Jewish guys in
the store the white interlopers on one hundred and twenty
fifth Street. And these guys had been in business on
this block for over a decade, and you know, they
were hiring people from the community. They sold good clothes

(12:21):
at a discount price. I mean, you know, they were positive,
they were positive merchants. But you know, as the other
acadomic thing goes, there was a big economic revitalization going
on in Harlem, and part of that was taking the
street vendors. They were all over undred and twenty fifth
Street and they were pushing them off and putting him

(12:43):
into like a flea market one hundred and fifteenth Street,
and it was just it just seemed like, you know,
for that community, that they were getting pushed out and
that this Jewish guy, you know, was able to flourish
in his store. And I don't think anyone took the
time to really find out what was going on, but
that was kind of the basis of what started the protesting.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, and we're talking with retiring my PDA Detective Bill Ryan.
We're looking back. This is a special episode of The
Mike and we have a podcast special edition of Taylson
boom Room profiles of the NYPD's arts and explosion in
Bomb squad As. We're looking back tonight thirty years later
at the nineteen ninety five Freddy's Fashion Mart massacre, and
to your point on that it's worth noting in the
New York Times article I have in front of me
that came out the next day about who was employed,

(13:31):
specifically that according to officials as you mentioned, and residents
of the neighborhood, the deadly fire followed a complicated, months
long dispute that involved the owner of the building, a
black Baptist congregation called the United House of Prayer, the
white owner of the closing store, Fred Harrari, and Seculu Change.
I'm probably mispronouncing that, so I apologize why owner of
the neighboring record shack, mister Change orshan Jay Harvey say

(13:54):
it is a South African black who shop has specialized
in blues, motown, African and Caribbean music for more than
twenty years. He was being evicted as a subtenant of
mister Herrari. In the last several weeks, there have been
a dozen or so pickets outside Freddy's urging a boycott
of the store because protesters believed it did not employ
blacks and was behind the eviction of mister Change or

(14:16):
shan Jay's business. All four of those who were wounded
are white men. Detectives working on the case last night
noted while the gunman apparently let some blacks and other
minorities flee before the fire broke out, which brings us
to the day itself. And this is what I have
in front of me, and I'll throw back to you, Billy.
December eighth, nineteen ninety five, Roland James Smith Junior, who

(14:38):
may have attended previous protests outside of the store, entered
Herrari's at around ten twelve that morning, armed with a
thirty eight caliber revolver as well as a container of
flammable liquid. He ordered black customers to leave and proceeded
to set the store on fire by sprinkling around the accelerate,
Positioning himself near the only exit. He proceeded to then

(14:58):
shoot at two police office arriving at the scene, and
then shot four customers as they were escaping the fire.
At twelve oh seven pm, so just about two hours later,
firefighters that contained the blaze and entered the burned out
building to discover seven store employees that died of smoke
and elation, and the gunman, mister Smith, had fatally shot himself.
Officials from the FDNY at that time, helmed by future

(15:20):
Police Commissioner Howard safer who would become PC. Just a
few months after this, discovered that the store sprinkler system
had been shut down in violation of the local fire code.
The only fire escape had been bricked up. At the time,
this was not a violation in mid nineties New York
City as long as there was a working sprinkler system provided,
so the only exit for those trapped meant passing the gunman,

(15:41):
which no one in the right mind was going to do.
Three of the victims that died in this attack were
found in a back room at street level, the other
four in the sealed basement. Then to your point on
those who were killed in this one black, five Hispanic,
and one Guyanese, and the wounded victims consisted of one Jew,
one Guyanese, two whites. So complicated to say the least,

(16:02):
especially considering the fact that look at who the fatalities were.
They were also mister Smith was a minority, his victims
were minorities too. So this is just again rooted in miscommunication, bigotry,
and hatred, and again involved at the center of so
many of these different cases involving that was a unit
as small but as unique like a citywide unit, like

(16:22):
a and E. At this point, you got like, what
two years in A and E. So when were you
working that day when when this came in? Sorry? Getting
down there?

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Probably it was a Friday. We were having our our
A and E is part of the Special Investigations Unit, Uh,
and we were having our Christmas party that night. I
had a brand new suit on, brand new shoes. I was,
you know, getting ready to you know, I was doing
the day shift. I wanted to go to the party,
and uh, you know, next thing I know, we're at

(16:54):
the A and E office and headquarters where we were
at the time and the eleven floor headquarters, and the
call came came in and uh, we actually had two
of our detectives who were already in Harlem, Eddie Schoffsberg
and Rodney Cox. They weren't up there for the fire.
They worked there on another case. When this came over
the radio, of course they went there. And when I
went there, I figured the two of them were going

(17:15):
to get the case, and uh, you know, to my
shock to turn around and I got it. But it
was a friday, you know, it was almost Christmas. You know,
people were in great moods and looking forward to the weekend. Off,
and uh so of course, when you've got your expectations

(17:36):
up and you make plans, you know, we got man
makes plans and God laughs. So you know, we we
went right to the scene and I went up with
Jerry Sheen and we got up there and uh you know,
we end up we keep our turnout, gearing our coats.
I'm starting the trunks of our car, so you know,

(17:57):
Jerry and I are getting dressed to go in there
with our our equipment. And and you know, when we
had gotten there, Smith had already killed himself to shooting
with the cops had ended, the fire was out, and
now you know we're coming looking at it just from
a crime scene perspective. But I mean, you know, you

(18:19):
want to talk about a difficult fire to put out
in terms of you know, you're trying to put the
fire out and some guy is shooting at you. You
know that that's that's a lot to ask the fireman
to do. And we had ESU there. You don't know
what he has, what his intentions are, You don't know
if he has other weapons, and you don't know if
he's alone. You know, this was just a group thing,

(18:40):
so it it took a while to kind of sort
it out. But you know, you go in and Smith's
dead in the middle of the place, and then you know,
you see the people all dead downstairs and in the back,
and I wish I could remember which of the women
it was. But one of the women who died downstairs,

(19:05):
she was hiding in an office and uh, she was
on the phone with nine one one and she's basically
narrating her her her death. Yeah, she's telling the nine
one one operator. You know, he's shooting, he's he's he's
pouring stuff on the containers, fires happening, were trapped, and uh,
you know when we went downstairs and found her, you know,

(19:27):
she was still had the phone to her ear, you
know that, and uh you know, you know that there's
there's a handful of things that that that you know,
have have you know, put souls, scars on my soul,
and that nine one one call having heard that and
listening to this poor woman she's literally narrating her death,

(19:50):
and uh to be there and take the phone out
of her hand, and uh, you know, it's just, you know,
I'm still upset about it, you know, it's uh, yeah,
and I want to be upset about it. Because you know,
it's something you got to carry for your victims.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Right right, And as we'll dive into over the course
of our conversation looking back on this incident, it didn't
need to happen, and there were certain people that got involved.
And again, the lesson of tonight's program not that I
am pious, not that I am preach you at all.
This program is not about that. But if there's anything
to take away from tonight's episode over the course of
my discussion, we're Billy looking back on this, it's words

(20:27):
matter actually lead to something good or depending on what
you say, it can lead to something bad. And we're
going to dive into that in a little bit later.
And I think this was a textbook example of how
words can really escalate a situation to the point where
if you have somebody unstable out there, that can be
their catalyst, that can be their impetus to do something

(20:48):
like this. Now Roland Smith and I'll get to like
where you even begin at a crime scene like this
at a moment Roland Smith Junior. That was his birth name.
He was also known I guess he was of the
Muslim belief him because he was known as one Day Maluco,
so that may have been his pseudonym as a result
of maybe perhaps being a Muslim faith according to what
I have in front of me. But nevertheless, again ironic

(21:11):
in the fact that he orders minority customers out of
the store, but his victims for the most part end
up being minorities like himself. So you have him dead
in the middle of the store. Esus finally able to
kind of go in there because I remember reading in
the book Bravehearts, Antitukevich and Rich Miller were among those
who responded that day over from truck two in Harlem,
and they weren't really able to get in at the

(21:33):
moment because the smoke was so dense and so thick
they couldn't see. Obviously, you're not going to send firefighters
in there if you're a battalion chief or a deputy
chief when there's a murderer actively murdering in there. But
after it's done, and you know he's dead, and you
know he's the only attacker, vast crime scene, multiple victims,
your killer's dead. Just from a technical standpoint, where did

(21:54):
you and Lieutenant Sheen even start.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Well, you know, I'd like to say you treat it
like every other crime scene. But the reality is is that,
you know, because of the political nature of it, and
I mean, everybody's coming and wants to contribute, but because
it is a homicide, the protocol out works, at least

(22:21):
in the New York City Police Department, is if it's
a homicide, the lead investigator becomes the precinct Detective Squad,
so it's the twenty eighth Pricing Detective Squad. They're responsible
for clearing the homicide on this So you've got to
make sure that you know, you're giving them what they need.
But it's also and you know you've heard me talk

(22:42):
about this in many fires like the Macaulay Culkin casey.
You know, when you get the fire department in the
police department to the scene of a fire and there's
fatalities and bodies, you know, they have their protocols. We
have ours, and you have to be able to express
what you want to do in a way that is respectful.

(23:03):
But you know, hey, guys, you know, this is this
is our game here. We we got we're one of the
ones that have to hold the bag for this, and
you know we were lucky. You know, we had great
fire marshals Conrad Tinney was one of the lead fire
marks on the case. He came in and he did
a good job with it. Yeah, an excellent man, great
great fire marshal. It was the pleasure to work with

(23:25):
him and he was among many fire marks who contributed
to the case. But you know, in terms of of
of solving the arson, I mean, you know, we knew
who did it because you know, we we we had
people see him do it. We have you know, there

(23:45):
was never a doubt about who the fire was. So
you know, if the old bit about you know, we
do the who. You know, the minute I got there,
I knew the who was. You know, who was the
guy that shot himself. So you know, we were just
there to make sure that, you know, and again we
had people like Eddie Wallace and crime scene unit coming
in making sketches, taking photographs of everything, and you just

(24:08):
have to really make sure you document where everything is gone,
make sure the marshals get their evidence. The liquid end
up being paid thinner, and you know, it just becomes
the whole thing about how do we do what we
have to do here to make sure that we get
the bodies out in such a way disrespectful you don't

(24:29):
want to create a big scene. You know, you want
to make sure it's handled in a dignified way. But
you know, at the end of the day, you know
it's still an arsen sy. You know, you're still digging
out the bins where the fire was. You're still gathering
up you know where the fire started. The I say rags,
but they were clothing before you set them on fire.

(24:52):
You want to gather that up. Then you want to
go downstairs and see there was, you know, problems with
the sprinkler system, and there was a lot of problems.
I mean, Smith absolutely set the fire and shot the people,
but there were other things that contributed to the fire.
And these are kind of some of the things that
we had to do as the arsenal explosion squad. There

(25:14):
was work being done on the sprinkler system of the store,
and without getting to a whole thing to the audience
about how sprinkler works, because they were working on it,
they're supposed to notify the local firehouse, and the local
firehouse is supposed to come every day and check the

(25:37):
store and physically inspect it, and it wasn't being done.
And there were wooden planks built up on the front
of that place for the construction, and part of it
was covering up the os and y the outside stem
and yog valve where you would would would plug the

(26:02):
hoses in to activate the uh the sprinkler system, but
it was covered with cementing and and uh and wood
and it was all you know, blocked in. So even
the firemen showed up and the sprinkler system worked, they'd
have to break the the uh the shack down or

(26:23):
the covering down. They'd have to get all the concrete off.
I mean it just you know, I don't know how
much of a of a benefit that would have been.
And uh, you know, then you started looking at uh,
you know the store. Ah, it was getting a lot
of what's called the ECB, you know, Environmental Control Board summons.

(26:44):
Is they were working the basement was supposed to be
uh for storage, and they were using it for office
space and for you know, they were just not following
the rules. And the problem with a lot of that
is you get a summons, and the summons is like
five hundred dollars, but to fix the condition is like
ten thousand dollars. What do you think most store owners do?

(27:05):
They pay the fine and ECB doesn't go back and say, hey,
did did they correct the condition? They only say already
paid the fine. So there was I think there was
over ten or fifteen violations that contributed to the fire
or the fire is spreading. I won't say contribute to
the fire, but it certainly knocked down anything in terms

(27:29):
of certainly aiding the suppression with the sprinklers. And you know,
would those women have died downstairs they had another way out.
You know, it really just wasn't a good escape route.
And they really weren't saying, hey, you know we're in
this place. What happens is just a regular fire in
the place. You know.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
It was.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
It was a big problem. I know when the Corporation
council because of course, you know, people start suing the city, uh,
you know for all these things. And you know, I
remember telling the people in the Corps council, I'm like,
you know, we didn't like this fire, but you know
we we didn't do our due dilligies as a city
keeping on top of this. You know, we didn't have

(28:13):
the fireman coming out checking on it. There was no
inspections not on it. So I mean this was you know,
this was an accident waiting to happen, and you know, unfortunately,
you know, yeah, Roland Smith went in there and shout
the place up and burned the place up. But you
know there were things that that you know, might have
been able to lessen the spread of the fire, you know,

(28:35):
and it was a tough thing. And then he get
out in the papers that that happened, and you know,
people were outraged. You know, it was as difficult. And
then of course, uh, you know, during the protest you
had Reverend L. Sharpton there and you know, he just brings,
you know, a lot of media attention wherever he goes,

(28:58):
and for better or worse, you know, he got a
lot of attention. And then you know, people were wondering
is he going to get locked up for you know,
he was leading the protest and he was saying white into lopers,
and you know, is he is he going to get
locked up for doing this? And I remember, you know
that later that night I was in the two eight

(29:21):
pre detective squad with a bias and the detective Jeffrey Gardner,
another great detective, and you know Sharpton was sitting there
waiting to go in and talk to the investigating detectives
and the two eight squad, and you know, I was
telling them, you know, wow, you know you must feel
really bad about this. You know. He's like, you know, well,
because I feel bad these people died. I was like, well,

(29:43):
I mean, you know, you don't feel responsible. I mean,
you know you're out there yelling, you know, and encouraging this.
I said, then somebody you know went in and did this.
I said, I would think you would feel responsible. And
he's like, I feel bad for these people, detective, but
I don't feel responsible. And I was like, wow, you know,
we just and I get it. He's not going to
take responsibility and that's not who he is. But you know, again,

(30:07):
you know all people of color. You know, the guard
who was in the store, who was taking a lot
of grief from people. I think the guard had just
filled out and after David ah to try to get
the protests and controlled or or moved on. And uh,
you know that the guard was black. And then you
know they would come in and all them names and

(30:29):
I'm not going to repeat the names, but you know, yeah, yeah,
and you know, and when Smith went in, you know,
he was he's telling everybody, you know, all the Blacks
get out of the store, but he wouldn't let him out,
you know, he made sure he he got rid of him,
you know, and uh, you know it was absolutely targeted,

(30:55):
you know, and you know, it just breaks my heart.
And you know, it's funny like I you know, every
year on December eighth, when this happens, you know, I
look in the news and I'm always surprised at there's
no real mention of it because at the time, I mean,

(31:16):
it was such a major, major story. I mean, I
mean it's it's probably the most political case I ever
worked on. I worked on a lot of political cases,
and uh, you know, it was uh just kind of forgotten,
you know, when I'm always surprised. I I didn't see anything,

(31:38):
and I look and uh, you know, nothing on the
TV about it. I didn't see anying any of the
major papers on it, you know, And I figured, here's
the anniversary, and like you know, as that's usually when
things like this pop back up, and uh, you know,
people don't remember it. Freddy's is not there anymore, you know,
that's another store, and uh, you know, and all this

(32:01):
is going on, by the way, Freddy's right across from
the famous Apollo Theater. So I mean this was you know,
not that the Apollo had anything to do with it,
but I'm just talking about.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
The cultural significance of the Apollo, right yeah, And and
and the visibility of it because you're there on camera
every night while this is going on.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
And you know, you see the marquis of the Apollo
in the middle of all this, and it was difficult.
One of the other things that we found out about
Roland Smith was that on November twenty eighth, my birthday. Uh,
he was living in the Bronx and he was living
in an apartment building and the apartment building burned down yep.

(32:40):
And you know, so we had to go up there
and you know, see what we could see with that,
and uh, you know, I I think that you know,
at that point, you know, we couldn't we couldn't prove
it that he did it, but I think we were
all pretty much of the opinion that that he had
started that fire as well. He certainly seemed comfortable around.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
It, right. You know, if it looks like a duck,
it quacks like it now And before you continue to
your point about that, this kind of goes back to
the sixties with him. He was fifty one at the
time that this all took place, and a close friend
of his the time who commented on this in this
article I have from the Tampa Bay Times from December
of nineteen ninety five. He lamented on the burnt house,

(33:23):
said his friend Glenn stuport To. At the time it
was sixty five years old, probably in all likehood deceased now.
He told me to let him go on with his life.
He never spoke like that to me before I knew
something was very wrong. In nineteen sixty seven, as a
twenty three year old in Philadelphia, Smith was sentenced to
four years in federal prison for resisting the drafting of
Vietnam War. Quote I deny my citizenship end quote, Smith

(33:44):
told a federal judge. It is sentencing that same year
in sixty seven. Quote I my people and my race
are treated like slaves here end quote. To the point
about the fire when it happened, he did have arrest
in Tampa and New York, goes to Africa, comes back
with the Muslim name that I mentioned earlier. He says.
Smith sometimes sold African artifacts one hundred and twenty fifth Street,

(34:05):
along with other illegal street peddlers, said Morris Powell, the
vendors leader, the city had police boot the vendors last
year after businesses complained. The vendors, most of whom were black,
said they were being targeted by a quote unquote racist
Republican administration. He felt they were driven out like dogs.
Many vendors, including Smith, later took up the cause of

(34:25):
Sekudo Chang, the black record store owner who faced diviction.
They helped organize a boycott at the clothing store and
acting alone Friday, this is the quote when he charged
into Freddy's. Witnesses said he yelled, quote unquote, brothers, get out,
it's going to go down, and it lost. In that

(34:46):
apartment fire was a lot of his African literature. According
to his friend Glenn As. He commented at the time
that yeah, yeah, a couple comments here in the chat
too from people who were there. Garrett Langren was working
and rescue one at the time fdn Y. He says,
I caught this fire or working there. I'll never forget it.
I didn't know you were there. My friend and Sergeant
John Lampkin, the very first guest I ever had on

(35:07):
form my ESU mini series. It's good to see you
in the chat, my friend. He says, Hello, Mike, You're right.
It was two truck members who don Scott packs and
made entry finding those bodies. I was on the scene
as one of the sergeants. I came up from one
truck and I know you guys responded that day too.
I forgot. That was mentioned in Sam Katz's book, as
well as Brave Hearts, which is another great NYPD book
I highly recommend for those out there and I haven't

(35:29):
read it. In the chapter that focuses on Rich Miller
and mentions Rich's involvement in that job because he was
working in two that day, so a lot to piece together.
The guard part is interesting because yes, I would imagine
that something like that was targeted. But to your point
on Sharpen, it's interesting because seven years later there were
rumors that in two thousand and four he was gonna
throw his hat in the ring for president. So in

(35:50):
July of two thousand and two, naturally that was brought up,
amongst many other things from his past, positive and negative.
He did apologize for the White Intern Loper comment. However,
still at least back then in two thousand and two,
when he was asked about this, he did not feel
much like he didn't feel when you spoke to him
that night in nineteen ninety five that he was directly

(36:13):
responsible for the killings and the arson. However, he did
apologize for the comment little too well, not little, very little,
very late.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Well. The whole thing with that, Mike is they had
it on tape exactly, you know, and I mean, like,
what are you gonna say? And I you know, it
was a radio station. I'm not gonna say which one,
but it was a radio station New York that was
playing it later. And you know, it's very hard for
him to say he didn't say it when they're playing
it on the radio and they're they're showing it. I
think if you search for it, it's probably on YouTube,

(36:45):
because everything seems to be on YouTube. But you know,
it's a waste of his time to deny it. You know,
he denied a lot of things, but how's he going
to deny that? You know what I mean? You got
him on tape, so you know one.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Of the ai it's not doctored, well yeah, not yet,
not yet.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
But you know, it's it's, uh, it's hard him the
walk away from something that that he said, and you
know there's you know, there was a lot of witnesses
you know that that that heard this, and uh, you know,
he he wants to walk away from it. But you
know this is you know, this is who he is.
I mean, he gets involved in these things, you know,

(37:25):
Uh you know, I mean, let's not forget to want
to Brawley where he was, you know, accusing the cops
and the prospect everybody was you know, uh, in some
conspiracy to get this woman and and do these things.
I mean, you know, it's not like he hasn't gone
down this road. I mean he's got quite a pedigree

(37:45):
stirring the pot up and uh, you know, not necessarily
being willing to walk it back or even be accountable
for it. So I mean the fact that he you
know that he coped to it. He copped to it
because they had the goods on him. So what are
you gonna do? Say you didn't do it? So you
didn't I didn't say that, you know, then they play
the tape and then you know, you look like an idiot.

(38:08):
So you sometimes you just better take him a hit.
You know. It's like one of the things they tell
you when you were copy and you're testifying. You know,
you know you made a mistake. You know, it's better
to own it up on h on direct with the
with the DA because if you don't, the defense is
going to come after you with it. So you know,
own up your warts in your case, same thing with him.
You know, he he knew he was gonna get beat

(38:29):
up with it. So okay, I said it, and you
know what, I apologize. You know, does he believe it?
You know, let me tell you just seeing how how
he was that night, you know, I'll never forge. You know.
It wasn't my first or my last dealing with him,
you know, but I I just thought he's a man

(38:53):
that you know, he you know, he puts the word
reverend in front of his name, and uh, to be
that cavalier about eight dead people, you know that I was, well,
I think you get where I'm going.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
No, of course, and again he's many things, not to
turn this episode into him or about him rather, but
he's many things. Contrite is not one of them. And
I don't think he was any bit in the least
or any lead at least I can't speak today any
way in the least Contrite around that time nor is
he can try to imagine thirty years later. And the
ironic part you mentioned that this has largely been forgotten,

(39:33):
which again is surprising considering the fact that it came
on the heels of so much as I mentioned the
introduction before getting into it tonight with you. But the
thing that benefits him with that is that much like
this tragedy unfortunately has been largely forgotten, so are his
remarks that led up into it. And he's been involved
in so much since then, it's kind of easy, because
there's been greater controversies he's been involved in to kind

(39:55):
of sweep this under the rug, even though this is
arguably one of the most major considering the fact that, hey,
there's no way to sugarcoat it. Really it got people killed.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, you'll never convince me differently.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Nor me either, And I wasn't even there.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
I think all eight of those bodies are on him,
and I you know, I'm I'm somewhat religious, and I
believe in there'll be a time in his life that
he's going to have to answer for those bodies. And
you know that's not for me to judge, but you
know he's he's going to be judged no, I mean,
you know, but you know what amazes me is that,

(40:34):
you know, with all that going on, that he's still
held in such great esteem. But uh, you know, I mean, listen,
we I don't want to turn the show into the
the Al Sharpton Show. No, I don't want to give
another minute of my time or yours or the audiences.
I think you know how I feel about him.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
No, you and I are in locksteps and his culpability
in this, of course. I mean, listen, Roland Smith pulled
the trigger at the end of the day. But there's
a lot of reasons that got Roland Smith there. I
think we know what those reasons are.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
And you know, they say, Mike, you can't yell out
fire in a crowded movie theater, and you know you can't.
You can't rile the people up to do bad things,
and then when they do the bad things, you know,
what do you mean? What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Right? No, of course, and that's what that's with anybody.
And getting back to the scene itself, it's not like
and this is where and I'm learning this now on
my Fire one and Fire two class and as I
try to seek the you know, a career in the
fire service is fire load is something that comes up
a lot, especially in a store like that, and you
know it, of course for all your years in A
and E. What's in there clothes if clothing like that,

(41:41):
a lot of clothing that's even in a building that
is following fire code. That's a nightmare if you're responding
on a box like that. And Garrett, even if this
was just a regular fire and this wasn't the you know,
the cause of it, you know, an attack like this,
that would have been and there was nobody in that store,
you know, you were working that day, of my friend,
that would have been a tough fire to fight. Regardless,
you add in situations like that, and even though some

(42:03):
of it wasn't a violation per se, for nineteen ninety
five in New York City, it's just not sensical. So
even in a regular situation like that, it's tough to
if you're if you're responding in on that box alarm
to be able to fight it adequately. And I don't
believe that's the only fire he set. He set multiple
of them, if I remember correctly, in quick succession, which
if there was any chance of those people getting out,

(42:23):
even if they didn't have to pass him on the
way out. They probably weren't going to. No, that's say I.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Think he knew exactly what he was doing. I think, yeah,
I think he knew he wasn't going to leave there,
and I think he, you know, he put the fires
in such a way that nobody was getting out, nobody
was getting past him. Yeah, yourself, you're not going to
sit there with some thirty eight, you know, and start
shooting at an emergency service cops and you know, and

(42:50):
I think you're going to walk out of there, you know,
you know, you know, his only choice was the surrender,
you know, and the clearly he wasn't going to do that.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
No, they never do in situations like this. And again,
had it not been and I think Sergeant Lambkin can
attest to this, had it not been for the fact
that there was so much smoke in there, you couldn't
see the hand in front of your face ESU. And
don't get me wrong, you know how much I love
my ESU cops. They use a lot of restraint. They
would have lit him up and made them look like

(43:22):
a piece of Swiss cheese. If the vision was clear
and the fire wasn't set. He would have went out
there in a body bag, but the wounds wouldn't have
been self inflicted.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah. The problem is, you also know you have a
bunch of civilians in and if you can't see, you know,
what's your what's your backstop? So I mean, right, you
know it's it's easy to say, oh, you know, I'm
not saying you're saying this, but you know you can't
just say, let's go in there and start shooting you.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
No, not that they would have, but if he would
have fired at them under normal conditions, I'm saying, yeah,
he would. He still would have walked out there in
the body bag, but it would have been because it
was self inflicted gunshot. Would believe me, they would have
put that gunshot wounds in them.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
And the issue guys with the pros, I take my
hats off to the mullet. You know, there's nobody better
than you know, the kings of what they do. And
it just made me look good. You know, he go
go hit this store.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
And John Lampkin did many of that, and he says, absolutely, Mike,
and that's true, and again that that was we made
every attempt, he says, to gain entry as soon as possible.
And again I don't blame him at all, It just
wasn't possible given the fact that ESU has Scott packs,
but ESU does not have the equipment to put out
a fire like the FP and Y would, And given
the fact there's still so much unknown as to where
he was.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
You don't know where he is. You know, he's got
a gun. You don't know how much ammunition or what
kind of a gun he has, you know.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
I mean, does he have a bomb on him he's
already setting fires? What if he has a bomb strap
to his chest, or if he's put pipe bombs throughout
the store? You don't know. I mean again, he was
out of his mind, but not so much that he
couldn't strategically lay out an attack like this. So you
mentioned what you found out about him a little bit
after the fact. The crime scene is the crime scene.
You kind of you've discovered, of course, what the store

(45:01):
didn't do fire protection wise, you have your killer in
the middle of the store, you're able to kind of
lay out where each body is, besides where he lived,
and besides of course the suspicious fire. Two weeks prior
to this, in the post investigation, aspect into painting picture
as to who he was. What else were you able
to find out?

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Most of it was things that you already talked about Mike,
you know his uh he was a draft dodger who
served the federal time. You know, we were trying to
see does he have any kind of history with weapons,
history with setting fires, you know, trying to track down
was he a member of any radical groups? You know,

(45:44):
But I mean I think for the most part, as
I remember, you know, he seemed like he was more
or less a loner. You know. Most of the things
we learned about him were you know, speaking to people
like Glenn Stupar, you know, people that were friends with him.
And I I think, like a lot of these guys

(46:04):
who go off and and you know, shoot places up
or burn places down. You know, they're they're quiet one
day and then something flicks the switch on in their
head and they went in and they they did the
bad act. And I think that he was he probably
had some mental health issues, I'll give him that. You know,

(46:26):
he was easily manipulated by the protest and uh, you
know again, you know, there was the whole federal economic
zone that was going on in the area and they
were they were dumping money into the area, but they
were doing it by part of getting the money, they
had to get rid of the street vendors. And he
was a street vendor. So I think, you know, this

(46:49):
was just one of those things where I think he
just felt put upon. You know, you know, they're they're, they're,
they're they're getting rid of the street vendors.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
You know, this Jewish guy is kicking our friend the
record shack off the block, and you know it, it
looks like just this little record shack that doesn't have
a lot of significance in it, but it was actually
kind of a cultural center, uh in the neighborhood as
much as it was a retail place to buy music.

(47:17):
You know, he he uh was able to get a
lot of stuff, you know, records that weren't commercially available
in places like Tower or do you remember Tower.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Records, Mike, I've heard of it, Yeah, I've heard of it.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, but you know, in traditional record stores and uh,
you know, he would do autograph signings for groups at
his store, and you know, there was there was it
was more than just a store that sold records, you know,
it was it was very much a place of cultural
significance in the community, and I just think, you know,

(47:52):
whatever set them off. I think between the vendors getting pushed,
the record shack going, you know, it might have just
been hey, you know, I I I can't handle one more.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Thing, right, And that breaking point factors into well what
we see essentially, which is a mass murder suicide.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
But you gotta remember that this guy lived in the
Bronx and he came to Freddy's that day with the
gun and the paint finner, so you know, I mean,
you know, he came to play, you know, I mean,
I think I think when he showed up that day,
he had absolutely decided he was going to go out
and set the fire and and and shoot people and.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Go out and what he thought would be his own
blaze of glory.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Top of the World. Ma right, you don't know what
I reference there, No Jimmy Cagney Public Enemy, last scene
Top about the World. Mom blows up.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Well, there's another movie I have to watch a little
bit before my time, but I'll add it to my list.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
It a lot before you time, before my time.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
It's like Guy's great. It's like when guys mentioned certain
movies to me in the fire house and I'm like, huh.
They're like, you got homework to do. I'm like, I do?
I do?

Speaker 2 (49:00):
And what movie they ask you to watch?

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Well, there's several. There's well, Backdraft, Yeah, Backdraft, I've seen
parts of I got to see the whole thing for Backdraft,
but that is one of the movies to watch. There's also, uh,
you know, other movies like Friends of Eddie Coyle for example,
I have to watch I was told towards Howard the Duck,
so I'll get.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
To Howard the Duck.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
I'll get to Howard the Duck at some point.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I am the you just Howard the Duck fan, and
that movie was just so bad. I have every single
I'm a big comic guy. I had every single thing
Howard is ever done right.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Well, I didn't know. I knew of the character because
he's in the Avengers movies. I just didn't know he
had his own movie. So I have to go back
and watch that movie.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
In it's terrible. I mean, you can watch it because
it's so.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Bad, but there you go, it's so bad.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
It's good, it's so well, no, it's so bad. It's bad,
you know, And it was one of my favorite comics.
I mean, it was, it was so far ahead of
its time. But you know, I don't want to that's
for a different show. We'll talk.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
It's for a different show, you know, that's for a
different show. But good to go down a little bit.
We need that little bit of a laugh. It's a
heavy subject tonight, so it's okay to have a little
bit of a laugh like this. And like you said, yeah,
he did come down for the Bronx too. I'm just
wondering what must have been going through his mind on
that train.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Right now, I'm going to tell you a funny story
about that. Yeah, so we had to get into his apartment.
So you know, we had you know, the fire engines
with the ladders up there, and the ladders are getting
us in, and it was me and some of the
fire marshals going in. John Miller, who had been DCPI.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yeah, this is around the Yep, he's DCPI at this time.
Well no, no, not anymore, No, no, no, well this
is my point.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah, he's not DCPI anymore. Yeah, and he's come to
the scene. Now. Chief Resnik was running this investigation and
he basically said, if I find out. You guys leak
anything to anybody, you know, that's your career. And if
you know Chief Resnick, you know, and a lot of
people another great opinion of my I I like Joe Resnick,

(51:02):
you know well, but so John Miller's there and he's
coming up to me, and hey, you know, you know
what I'm like. I said, John, I can't tell you
he is what I said. I'm not even comfortable talking
to you. I said, if Resnick sees me even talking
to you and you write something about this, hees, no, No,
I want'm keeping I said, John, please go go. I

(51:24):
don't even want to talk to you. I was not
worried about Resnick.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
You know.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah, And that was just reached the time, And that's
a little bit of context for those of you in
the audience that don't know. Bratton and Giuliani hated each other.
Bratton still to this day and his latest book still
bashes Rudy and one of the casualties early on in
this essentially ego war. And I like Bill Bratton a lot,
but you know Bill's got a big ego, so does Rudy.

(51:49):
They still both do to this day. Was essentially publicity,
Who's getting better publicity. Is it me meaning Mayor Juliani,
or is it me Commissioner Bratton. John Miller essentially was
fired from the NY because he was doing his job
too well. So in March of nineteen ninety five he
gets forced out as the DCPI, which was totally wrong.
But that's a different story for a different day. He's back,

(52:10):
I believe, in the news cycle at ABC around this time,
where he would stay until he left again for the
LAPD to reunite with Bill, and Bill got that job
in two thousand and two. So a little bit of
context for you out there, and of course, you know,
you go, not that it makes a difference, but because
it's considering what he used it for. He didn't use
it for anything good, that's for sure. But was this

(52:30):
the gun that he had? Was that a legal gun
that he owned, or was that something he got off
the street?

Speaker 2 (52:35):
You know, I don't remember. I can't imagine that it
was illegally possessed.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Gun, not considering his background.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
You know, thirty years later, do I remember? I I don't.
I don't want to give you my best guess. Well
I'll give you my best guess. My best guess is
probably was an illegal gun. I don't remember it being
stolen or whatever, but it's a great question. I don't
I can tell you used paint then, or I can
tell you about the fire aspect, because that's what you know.

(53:06):
I'm focusing on the gun, you know, a little less
interesting to me, but.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
It's a great question, and it's it's worth noting burns
didn't kill these people. Notice what I mentioned earlier is
the smoke emulation, so they you mentioned the woman that
made the nine one one call. It's it's a horrific
way to die, regardless, but at least if you're burned
to death, it's a little quicker. These people suffered, they knew,
they knew their demise was coming. And I you know,
the haunting line from this episode is your line, my friend,

(53:34):
which is that woman on the nine one one call
narrated her own death, which just adds to the cruelty.
And again, the title of the Tampa Bay Times article
I quoted earlier from nineteen ninety five is fitting cruel
ironies not only was in the manner in which this
attack was carried out, but it's who his victims were.
So returning to the neighborhood, during this time. And I'll

(53:54):
get into the collaborations that were done at this time too.
You mentioned the fire marshals. How often were you guys
going back for a while before you were comfortable enough
to leave that crime team and just build the rest
of the case from there, especially considering the fact your
killer was dead already.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
You know, we had to hold it for a very
long time, Mike, because not just because uh, you know,
we weren't able to do the fire aspect of it,
but you know, because we were still looking at things
like the problems with the sprinkler system and the os
and Y valve, the outside stem in jo valve covered

(54:30):
in concrete. I mean, you know, this is the type
of stuff that now I'm bringing upstairs to the PC's
office with you know, with Jerry Sheen, and you know,
we're like, you know, the city's on the hook for this.
You know, nobody did. You know, I'm not here to
bash anybody, but you know, nobody really looked out for
this and did what they had to do. And you know,
the Buildings Department didn't come in and check things, the

(54:53):
fire department didn't check some of the things, and you know,
it was kind of neglected and U you know, we
wanted to hold this because we didn't know is the
corporate council wanted going to come in and take looks
at this, So we held the scene for a pretty
long time. It's also you don't want to release it
because you know, you don't know if if you're going

(55:14):
to come up with something, you know, next week and
go oh yeah, oh, we let the scene go. And
I don't think that, you know, Freddie Harry was any
too quick to want to set up I mean something
like this happens while you know, I mean, you know,
even if who is going to come back there right now?

(55:34):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (55:35):
It just uh.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
And it was still you know, you still have a
lot of people. Became like a kind of a tourist
site for a while, and a lot of that's because
you know, people go to see the Apollo, which was
across the street, and they come over and look at
this again. You know, it's kind of forgotten in the
news like a lot of big cases. You I always say,
like the uh, the nineteen ninety three World Trade Center bombing.

(55:58):
You know, you you barely get to mention that on
the news anymore. But you know, what had happened. It
was the biggest thing. Well, you know, much like this case.
You know, thirty years ago this happened, and I mean
this was you know, just covered everywhere. It was you know,
and it wasn't just a New York story. I mean,
this was this was all national world. Yeah, and you know,

(56:20):
and a lot of that's because you know, it is
a famous street. You know, it is an iconic street.
It's across the street from a national or at least
many people fill in national landmark like the Apollo, I mean,
and then you know, this is all happening right before Christmas,
and you've got all these people dead, and you know,
again this was like an inexpensive story. You know, you

(56:42):
can get clothing and everything, so you know, this this
was something a lot of people in the community liked
the shop there, you know, it was you know, it
was it was a lot to lose for them, you know,
and I'm sure a lot of people probably feel guilty
that they were out there, you know, making cracks about
these poor people going and working every day and now

(57:03):
they're they're dead, you know, and you know what do
you say, Wow, did I you know, did I did
I contribute? To that that I you know, add to
their misery. But it was tough, and I mean I
remember the corp Council lawyers came into our office to
look at, you know, the files we had on this,
and uh, I remember telling the lead lawyer I said,

(57:25):
you know, and Jerry, she was furious that I said this,
but I said, listen, as far as I'm concerned, between
all the lapses that the city did here, we couldn't
write a check big enough to cover our culpability in this.
And Jerry's like, whoa, you can't say that's like you know,
I'm like, I just did. I've got eight dead people,
seven of them are you know, are victims of murder,

(57:46):
and you know we really, you know, we kind of
let them down. Like I said, you know Smith, you know,
Smith's pulled the trigger. Smith set the fires.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
But you know what led him there, westsides his own
insanity and his own instability, what pushed him. You know,
there's always contributing factors and charged cases like this, and
like we covered earlier, words don't matter, right.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
But when I when I'm talking about Mike, is is
you know, without bringing that person, I don't want to
talk about anymore into it, right, you know, you know
that there really was a fundamental breakdown about you know,
there's a protocol where you're supposed to you know, the
fire department was supposed to come there every day and
inspect this place while the while the uh, the sprinkler

(58:36):
system was being worked on, and you know, the the
the fact that you know, nobody ever came because it
was there long enough that that someone could build a
whole bind around this and this concrete poural over it.
I mean, you know who's not watching that is the
building department. Did they ever go back and check up

(58:56):
on any of these violations and say did you correct them? Yeah?
You paid the fine, did you correct them? You know,
you've got people coming to work here, you know, they
have a right to work in a safe place. And
you know, you know, Smith pulled the trigger. But you
know the city's got there their dirty little hand in
this too, by by not making sure that the things

(59:18):
that needed to be done that were required to be
done be done.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Yeah, and you know so uh and again.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
You know, I don't take any pleasure saying that or
embarrassing in these agencies. It's just you know, but you know,
you gotta you gotta call it what it was, you know,
and you know, did did we let the protest get
out of control? I mean, you know that that's a
judgment call. I think that, uh, you know, there's there's

(59:47):
more than one bad guy here, you know, you know.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
And again, like I mentioned earlier, even if it was
just a fire that did not start because of criminal circumstances,
we would probably not want not Probably we would still
be having the same discussion because of the safety codes
that weren't enforced the time, because of the technicalities that
allow people to kind of skirt by, like you said,
paying the fine but not necessarily paying the other prices
needed to make the necessary life saving corrections. At that time,

(01:00:12):
a lot of store warmers. I'm not saying this is
the case so much. Now codes are as stringent as
they've ever been in New York City and really across
the board, especially post nine to eleven. But nevertheless, I
mean a lot of store owners back then it's the
best bang for your buck. Yeah, I'll pay the fine,
like you so perfectly put it, but do I want
to go the extra mile now? And then unfortunately, when
it happens, you're kind of left holding the bag and

(01:00:34):
holding the blood in your hands for those that perish
or those that are seriously injured in incidents of this nature.
Now I'll touch on collaboration in a moment, but just
another article here from the Christian Science Monitor, written a
couple of days after this in nineteen ninety five, where
again context is key here, Rudy had come in the
year before. In one of the articles I quoted, had
mentioned that mister Smith felt he was targeted by a

(01:00:55):
quote unquote racist Republican administration. Rudy was in his campaign
that we're going to take back the city, and he
was going hard on things like the squeegee men, things
like the illegal vendors. And while most people applauded that
because crime was starting to go down, the pendulum was
starting to swing for the better in the city, there
were some people like mister Smith and others who had

(01:01:15):
the same thought process who didn't agree with that so much,
to say the least. Now, quoting this article from the
Christian Science Monitor dated December tenth, nineteen ninety five, quote,
city police had been monitoring the protest and had made
efforts to mediate between store owners, the landlords and picketters.
The police also sign additional officers to the block and

(01:01:36):
opened a racial bias investigation, which included videotaping the protesters.
Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani on Saturday blamed the protest for
turning the landlord tenant dispute into a racial issue quote unquote.
Maybe the mayor said at the time, we shouldn't force
things into racial disputes when they are something else. He said,
without mentioning that person that we talked about earlier by name.

(01:01:59):
That person, uh denied that race was the underlying issue, saying,
quote unquote, the fact is the landlords are black, quote unquote.
The issue was never black and white. But as we
covered earlier, bit of a different story with that. Now
you mentioned the FDNY fire marshals that you also get
the ATF on this too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
You know, I'm sure they were there because you know,
they're a wonderful agency and we try to get them
involved in everything. I can't say that I remember them
being there, but that being said, almost every major investigation
that we had, you know, our friends in ATF came

(01:02:37):
out there, the Arson group, But I don't remember them
exactly being tied to this. You know, sometimes they come
in and say what do you need And they'll come
out and help us do interviews, they'll help us with
you know, processing the scene. You know, they're a great resource.

(01:02:58):
But I I don't remember them being involved. I remember
being obviously A and E, the two eight detective squads,
detective squad, the homicide squad, and the fire marshals. I
can't imagine we didn't bring the FEDS into this somehow,

(01:03:20):
something on this scale, on this scale. But uh, yeah,
you know a lot of times, Mike, when you have
a big incident, you know, yeah, I'm sure you guys
talk about everybody's got to come and get their ticket punched.
You know. One of the things that I I, you know,
used to get from A and E is, you know,
we go to these scenes and you know, to be
a bombing or be found explosives or whatever, and everybody

(01:03:44):
and his cousin would come and you know, uh, you know,
get get the name on the forty nine and you know,
and be involved and uh, you know, the next day,
you know, the chief stands alone. You know, the A
and E guys are there with it. All these guys
had gone home and you know, with the ones handling
it and you know, if it's a fire or bombing,
that's that's appropriate. But something like this, again, as I

(01:04:07):
said earlier in the show, you know, it was first
and foremost a homicide, and the responsibility for it was
going to stay with the twenty eight Precinct Detective Squad.
And you know, what I was focusing on was more
things we just talked about where you know, there was

(01:04:28):
enough things with the sprinkler systems and the buildings department
issues and the you know, we certainly did the interviews
and I had to go up to his apartment house
in the Bronx. You know, there was plenty of work
for everybody to do, but most of handling, like you know,
mister Stupart and a lot of the people that were interviewed.

(01:04:49):
You know, we kept that with the squad, letting them
focus on that, and you know, we focused on what
we do, you know, looking at the fire, looking at things.
I remember when Smith died, he had he had some
kind of silver package of silver something in his in

(01:05:11):
his pocket and they're like, well, what is it. You know,
I'm like, I don't know what it is. You know,
we send it to the lab and it's something that
you would put into a car to uh, to fix
an engine or fix a leaky radiator. But then it
becomes well, would could you use that to make a fire? Uh?
You know, does it burn? Or you know what you know?

(01:05:32):
And all these things that you know make a difference. No,
I think we will find out he was some kind
of a you know, among many things he did. He
was a kind of a handyman with cars, and it
was probably just something he had from fixing cars on him.
But you know, again, what what is it? You know,
what are we gonna do with it?

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Right? And what's the correlation? You mentioned the two A
Precinct Squad or the homicide squad for the two Ay
Precinct At the time, you had good collaboration obviously with
the f y fire marshals. Conrad Tinney was a great
fireman and rescue three and an equally great fire marshal,
so his experience was very vast. I'm trying to get
that guy on the show. I got to get in
touch with them.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Yeah, he's a great marshal if you get him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Yeah, Garrett, if you keep in touch with mister Tinny
as Tim Brown calls him. And I don't know if
you do, Garrett, But can you please pass my number
off to him because I would love to have him
on this program to talk about his career if he
wants to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Great gentleman too, you know, just just.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
I've heard, I've heard, and a decorated fireman and marshal
at that. As far as far as the collaboration with
the two eight Squad, I mean, I know, like as
you just mentioned, your focus was on more of what
the store did not do from a legal standpoint for
fire prevention and protection. Theirs was a little bit more
on the homicides. I imagine, no issues with them, no
territory issues there none good.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Yeah, but you know like that, I mean that that's
an and and then fire fatality. You know, we we
said we the arsonal Explosion Squad. We're we're support an
investigative support unit for the Precinct Detective Squad. You know,
we're there to make sure, Hey, what can we get
done for you? You know, how can we help you with

(01:07:09):
the case? Is there any test we can do any
you know, can we canvas something for you? Can we
you know, and there's specific things that we have to do,
but you know, we try to free them up from
having to think about these things and let them do
the things that they do. You know, canvas, talk to witnesses,
you know, play every play everybody to their.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Strength, absolutely, and that's really all you can do in
situations like this. I mean, there's such it's such an
involved case. There's a lot of moving parts, to say
the least, and again people forget and this is this
is conventional even in a normal suicide investigation, Even in
a suicide where it kind of seems pretty cut and dry,
there's still stuff you have to ask and aspects of
the investigation you have to consider, and people you need

(01:07:52):
to talk to before you can close the case, let
alone with something like this. Yeah, you don't have to
hunt for the killer. You know who the killer is
and he ain't going anywhere, thankfully, But nevertheless, there's still
so many different moving parts before you can close the case.
It helps when everybody's on the same page, which in
an investigation like this, thankfully, there was no not at
least not too much no politicking amongst agencies.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
No, I mean it was uh as political as the
case was in and of itself. You know, there really
wasn't you know, fighting among the guys. I mean, uh good,
you know, I mean, listen, I'm not going to kid
you and say at the beginning, we're all getting there.
You know, the traditional you know, the fire department wants

(01:08:34):
to do this and the police department wants to do that,
and sometimes those roads split, and you know, you know,
but you know, you gotta you gotta plant the flag
and say, hey, guys, it's a homicide. It's ours. I
I want you here, you know, we want your experience,

(01:08:57):
your knowledge. You know, we're stronger with you. The went
at you. But at the end of the day, it's
it's a homicide. It belongs to the p D. And
the calls got to go the way we wanted to go.
And you know, unlike the mcaulay Culkin fire, where I
told you, you know, people died and and in the

(01:09:19):
hallways and you know, I told them not to move
the bodies. And then you know, I come outside and
there's all the bodies in front of the building and
Chief of Detectives, Bill Ali is screaming at me, how
did you let this happen? I'm like, all right, Bill,
there's three detectives here, you know, I mean, then look
look how many of them? You know, you know, I

(01:09:40):
said not to, but I mean then I had to
go up to the apartment, right, I mean, you know
you should have stayed here. You know, you can't wait
to lose sometimes. But you know, as long as you
know what, you're responsible when you get it done. You know,
just like in that case, you know, we we did
a lot of the investigations, but it was still the

(01:10:03):
twentieth Precinct detective Squad in that case. You know, at
the end of the day, they're the ones that have
to answer out. You know, was this a homicide, was
it a suicide? Was it an accident? And uh, you
know that that's why you have to work collaborative with
you know, at the end of the day, after we
do all we can. You know, in case like like Freddy's,

(01:10:26):
we were lucky in that, you know, the guy that
did it is Daddy's here, okay. You know, you know
we for me, we think it as an exceptional clearance.
You know, yeah, we know who did it. Well, we
can't lock him up because he's dead. So I mean
I walked in there already ahead of the game, you know,
in terms of I just had to go through, uh,
the things that I was responsible for but you know,

(01:10:48):
I knew I was never going to get you know,
stuck with the final outcome. And you know too that
we I think we've mentioned him in this. But you
know you had the Bias unit very involved in this
because they had been at the scene monitoring the protests,
and you know, right or wrong, you know, they took

(01:11:11):
a lot of heat. You know, I don't know what
they would expect some of these detectives and bosses to do,
but you know, you got a protest and and you
know it's funny when you watch protest today where everybody's
yelling and obscenities and doing things and nobody you know,
says anything. And yet you know they I think they
they expected the bias guys to you know, to do

(01:11:35):
more than they could have done there, and you know
they really weren't weren't fair and how they ended up,
you know, treating some of the bias investigators in it.
But you know what it becomes the thing. It's a
political case, and you know the city Hall is always
looking for somebody's head on a stick, so you know

(01:11:57):
you have that aspect in it, you know, and there
was some excellent people involved in on their end, and
you know they you know, they kind of got the
bed end of the stick, you know, but you know,
what are you gonna do?

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
You know it?

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
You know it's typical PD. You know that no matter
how well you do, somebody's got to take some of
the heat for it. Yeah, but to that again, yeah
it is, you know, and and you know we had
good relationships with everybody, you know, we we were working
well with the Manhattan DA and putting it all together.
I mean, you know, I can't say that anybody with

(01:12:35):
short resources on this who was never you know, sometimes
you know you need to do things and over time
becomes an issue and like you know, you can't do this.
I mean, this case wasn't that way. Like you need
to do it, Go do it. Don't worry about the overtime.
We'll pay it. You need this done, go get it.
You know you need subpoenas, We'll get them for you. You know,
I mean it, you know, in that respect. And you

(01:12:59):
know again, you know City Hall is looking at this,
you know, hyper focused, you know what's going on with this?
And I think that I think that we could have
locked up our friend, you know, for for any of
the charges. I think you know, it probably would have happened,
but well, I don't want to expand too much on

(01:13:21):
other than to say, you know, we we we had
conversations with the d a's office and uh, you know
when nobody was arrested. So uh, you know, some some
people feel that that was that was a problem with
the case. But you know, you make a case like that,

(01:13:43):
you lock somebody up like that, you know, you got
to worry about, you know, more unrest, and you know what,
what's the benefit of it. You know, you can bring
anybody back, you know. Yeah, then you got to say,
you know, you're you you you know, you encourage them
if you don't stop them from doing it. But anyway, bigger, bigger,
big grades of mind got to make that call. So uh,

(01:14:06):
you know, it is what it is. And again I'm
still just so shocked because it was I mean, you
see all the news articles on this, and it was
there's tons of video and this was this was a
huge thing. Yeah, and you know, it just it just
gets blown by you know.

Speaker 4 (01:14:21):
And uh.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
But and I wasn't laughing earlier at what you were describing, obviously,
because that's not funny. I was laughing at Sergeant Lampkin's
common in the chat. He's like, sarcastically, what FD s
U rivalry? But if I will say, and knowing John
Lampkin and knowing Garrett Linger, if there's two guys I
know that just wanted to show up do their job
and didn't have time for any of that nonsense and
didn't play into any of that nonsense, it's those two

(01:14:45):
guys I know, you know, anytime and they showed up
with the s U or vice versa John showing up
and with the ft and Y. If those guys were
there at that job, it's going to go smoothly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
So you know, is there is there battles of the
badges sometimes?

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
Yes, absolutely every city. It's not just New York.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
No, I'm not saying it's unique to New York. I'm
just saying, you know, it's it's I mean a lot
of it's you know, let's you know, messing with each
other and breaking each other's chops. I mean, you know,
I have friends that are are fire marshals, you know.
I mean, you know people used to ask me, and
you know, when you're in a and a you know,
how do you get out with the fire department. I'm like,

(01:15:21):
you know what, I've gotten along better with the Fire
Department than I have with a lot of guys from
the NYPD, you know, I mean, you take a guy
as he is, you know. You know I listened there
are that there were fire marshals that you know, I
didn't get on with, And there were detectives and lieutenants
and sergeants I didn't get on with, and a couple
of chiefs. But we'll say that for another show, yes,

(01:15:44):
or maybe we won't do that show at all. But well,
what are they gonna do to me now I'm retired,
come back if I wanted to, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
And the other aspect to it too, I guess for
that time is again. You know, this is Joe Burrell,
because Joe Barelli, this is one of his last cases
before he retired in the spring of ninety six. This
is his detective Bureau. Still Bill Eli didn't come until
really nineteen ninety seven. I know somebody took it. I
forget who took it over. Charlie Ruthers had it, Ruther
for yeah, late Charlie Ruthers had it, and then incomes Ali.
You had it until three. But man, if you look

(01:16:16):
at a lot of the cases Barelli had, and I
don't want to put words of Brelli's mouth, but I
remember asking him about him about this when Mayer Kahani
got shot in ninety and bringing that case up with him.
And I spoke a couple of years ago on this
show where I said, you know, you treated it as
a regular investigation, which I get. I don't fault him
for because of the massive implications of it, you know,
and I just had him explain why, which he did

(01:16:37):
and did quite well. I imagine he probably wanted to
treat this case the same way because it's his point.
And again I think it's it's perfectly stated. If you
let the other extreme well known factors become involved too
much in the investigation, it could derail things. And I
think unfortunately, for as big as it was, I would
have asked you what are your thoughts on it thirty

(01:16:58):
years later, especially the day, but you've pretty pretty much
covered that it was a blip in the radar looking back,
not to diminish its significance because of what would come later.
Forget nine to eleven for a moment, which of course
is the cap off to this build up of major
events that had been happening in New York City at
that time involving terrorism, and because I'll count this as terrorism,

(01:17:19):
that's what it was. Nineteen ninety seven, the shooting at
the Empire State Building right nineteen ninety seven, as well
letter bombs at the United Nations later that same year,
our dear late friend Richie Teamsman Paul Yurku, the packages
out in Brooklyn where those two guys were going to
blow up the Atlantic Avenue subway had it not been
for ESU and Richie and Paul diffusing them. It's just

(01:17:40):
a continuous build up of things that kind of and
then it culminated in two thousand and one that made
this become forgotten. But man, especially on an anniversary like this,
especially with what's going on in recent years, I'm surprised
this is a case that doesn't get more attention. But
that's why this show is here, and that's why I'm
glad I was able to get you back on and
talk about it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
I appreciate it, Mike. You know I've said this to
you before. I've said it to you in the forward
that I wrote for your book. You know, I think
a great service that your show does is it helps
document some of these you know, horrible things that happened
in our city. And it's kind of a video textbook

(01:18:21):
of some of the city's history and some of the
great cases of the works that's been done by you know,
policemen and firemen and then the ATF agents and FBI
agents and members of law enforcement. And you know, it's
a it's a great service your show does. And I
don't say that just because you have me on a
couple of times now.

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
I do appreciate and you've been, you know, one of
our more consistent supporters. And again, even if you weren't
a sponsor of this show, I still like having you
on in assist like taking your brain on these things,
because again you you were at the center of a lot.
And I bother you about this all the time, Billy,
And I know what you're gonna say. I don't know
what I would put in there. Write the book, right,
the book, Write a book of your own, and I'll

(01:19:02):
have you back on and promote that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
You know, all right, Well, then you write my forward, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
Hey, done deal, done deal, and I'll do it for free.
And listen, you let me know, and I'm gonna write
this and I mean that, and I mean that. Oh yeah,
and I done deal. Like I said, you write that book.
I got the forward. Don't you worry about it. So
with all these stories you've got over the years, we'll
close out in a moment. But of course I don't
want to forget our friends over at Granted State. So

(01:19:27):
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front lines, So don't wait. Gear up with the TL
two today. Granted State fire Helmets or Tradition eats innovation

(01:20:11):
and we're firemen, Happy covering. And by the way, Garrett
before I forget, because I know you're still in the
chat with my friend, and thank you as always for
your support as well. I got to get a date
in mind for early next year, and we'll do that
show on the Saint George. I'll tell Fire of ninety
five because I know you were there. I think you
were working in three that night, So we'll do a
show on that one. I was there too, and you
were there too for that one went to like eighteen alarms,

(01:20:34):
So that was another notable incident, although there was no,
you know, nothing as nearly as tragic in terms of
what happened at Freddy's Fashion Mark, but that was one
of the biggest fires forgets just the nineties. That was
one of the biggest fires the FDA. Why I ever
had periods. So Garrett, you and I got to do
that show too, my friend. What I will ask you
before we close out, though, besides the fact it's been

(01:20:54):
thirty years, if you could say anything to detectives in
the Bureau, especially those involved with special investigations that may
handle cases as charged as this one. Given the fact
that you handled this case in many other similarly charged cases,
what advice would you give them when you have really
controversial cases like this.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
You know, let me say, one of the first things
I think we need to do, as as fellow cops
and firefighters and EMTs, is that, you know, when you
see some of these things, you know you're going to
carry trauma with you. And I think we all carry
a certain amount of PTSD, you know, like I said,

(01:21:38):
I mean, I the sound of that phone call still
haunts me, you know, the you know, I can still
smell Frate's. I can still you know, It'll live with
me till the day I die, you know, And I
think it's important that we, at least among ourselves, you know,
we talk about these things and help invent it because
you know, who are you going to tell this to,
you know, your spouse, your significant other. You can share

(01:22:00):
it with them, but it doesn't give you the same perspective,
you know, I mean, who's who's dealing with these gruesome things?
You know, you know it's people in our community, uh,
you know, the first responder community. So I would say,
you know, watch each other when you know, with a
day after you know, see if hey, this guy getting quiet,

(01:22:22):
is he off to himself? Is how's he handling this?
Because you know, everybody doesn't handle things the same way,
and you know, some of the times it's the toughest guy,
and you know he's taking it on the chin because
this is something that affected him. Maybe was because he
saw a dead child and he's a parent, But I
would say, you know, first and foremost, do that and

(01:22:46):
as far as as dealing with you know, major cases
like this, you know, just remember that, you know, in
the words of the Great Lieutenant Commander Vernione Gebberth, you
know we we work for God, and you know we
work for our victims, and and uh, you know, you
got to go after the truth. And you know sometimes special,
interesting things come in that they try to sway you

(01:23:09):
from that mark, but you know, ultimately that's who you're
where you're working for, and you know, try try to
hang on to that, and uh, you know, make make
make friends, stay you know, stay connected. You know that's
going to help you get get through a lot of this.
And I don't mean, you know, go out to the

(01:23:30):
bar and get drunk with people, because you know there's
i g it's a diminishing return. But I mean, you know,
look after each other, you know, spend time with each other,
it's important to help you get through it, you know.
So that that's that's my two cents for any detectives.
And then went to any detective is study, study, study, study,

(01:23:53):
and when you're done, study some more. I get out
as a first grade detective making lieutenants money, you know,
I I but you know it's great as that is.
He's still not the boss, right, you know, I go
to these scenes and I'd have some you know, five
year wonder come up and no, this is how we're
gonna do with No, that's not how it gets done. Well,
I'm the sergeant. You know what he is, and that's
the call. So study and get promoted, and you know what,

(01:24:18):
you can help other people and you can be the
good boss and change people's lives. I had that, you know,
many times with people like Pete Brenzo and Jerry Sheen
and Mark Torrey and John Santos and Fred Manzilulo and
you know some of the people that I work with.
And I'm fortunate. I'm very fortunate ap and.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Pete's and the chet tonight is Richella And again I
mentioned him against Sergeant Pete. Was that way, Sergeant Lampkin,
you were that way too, because a lot of guys
talk spell. The spell again, I can't speak today say
the same things about you, my friend, and how great
of a boss you were to work for during your
years as a sergeant Emergency Service. So it's true across
the board.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
And I love to men. Man, they bailed me out
so many times.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
I got nothing but love for the e men, so
do I. They've been great to me over the years,
and I really appreciate their love and support. Like I said,
Sergeant Lampkin and I are always going to be connected
at the HIT because that mini series, which has taken
on a life of its own. He was the first
guest I ever had for it, so you know, he
holds a special place in the history of this program,
especially that mini series. So stick around, Billy. Of course,
we'll talk off there. Coming up next on the Mike

(01:25:19):
the New Haven Podcast, it'll be volume eighty one of
the best of the bravest interviews with the FT. Wisely,
I'm going to shine a light on the New York
Fire Patrol. They're not around anymore, unfortunately, they went away
in two thousand and six. But John Sheen was a sergeant.
Of course, they don't have the tenants in the fire
patrol or didn't they have sergeants instead? He was a
sergeant in the New York Fire Patrol. He was in

(01:25:39):
Fire Patrol two in Greenwich Village. He responded on the
morning of nine to eleven to the trade center with
Keith Roma, the only fire patrolman in the three hundred
and forty fourth firefighter to die that day tragically in
the line of duty when the towers came down. So
he'll come on talk about his years in the fire patrol,
and of course remember Keith and what Keith did that day.
Keith got two hundred people into safety before losing his
life in the collapse Tower one. As for the outro

(01:26:01):
song for those of you listening on the audio side
appropriate for tonight from their nineteen ninety five debut album
Frog Stom, which turns thirty this year. They wrote it
when they were fifteen, which is incredible. Silverchair plays us
out with israel Son in the meantime on behalf of
producer Victor and retired nypd R explosion detective Billy Ryan.
This has been a special edition of Tails from the

(01:26:22):
Boom Room, Volume thirty nine, looking back the nineteen ninety five,
Freddie's Fashion Mart, Massacre, Mike Cologne and we will see
you next time. Be safe and good night.

Speaker 5 (01:27:17):
Okay, I'm feel for you. I'll won't you, I don't,
won't you be.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
Your name.

Speaker 4 (01:27:32):
Only execute se If you dont, you'll start your round
The stays, Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:27:42):
My bad.

Speaker 5 (01:27:45):
Start to.

Speaker 3 (01:27:49):
I get so I hate gays a alprophy.

Speaker 5 (01:28:10):
You can even can a launch of Bill. I'm bad,
this betomize, but I don't see a show inside the field.

(01:28:31):
So I started to get school right this time for real.
Myhing gay hels wealthy and well, heays my feel He.

Speaker 4 (01:29:21):
Want you, boy, Why aren't you dead?

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):
If I execution.

Speaker 5 (01:29:32):
Or if you're not chanced the knock out for an
inst hold up, let's go be l so this time
of rail my baby out of here?

Speaker 1 (01:29:56):
You will me?

Speaker 4 (01:30:01):
SECU said I, But

Speaker 5 (01:31:26):
What it actually happened

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 389: Tales From The Boom Room: 1995 Freddy’s Fashion Mart Massacre (Volume 39)

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Episode 389: Tales From The Boom Room: 1995 Freddy’s Fashion Mart Massacre (Volume 39)

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