Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Honestly to put yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good morning, It's Michael Patrick Shields, good afternoon, good evening,
whenever you may be listening, wherever you may be listening,
and all the ships at sea, it's Michael Patrick Shields
with you through the AT and T microphones. And in
Grand Rapids, where were heard on w t KG, and
in Michigan and in the United States of America, we're
(00:53):
watching with great intrigue and great sadness. As an expert
witness was called by the Kent County Prosecutor Chris Becker
yesterday saying that former Grand Rapids police officer Christopher Sure
created jeopardy when he chased after Patrick Leoya in April
twenty twenty two at a traffic stop. South Carolina School
(01:16):
of Law professor Seth Stouton testified that Shure exposed himself
to some unnecessary technical risk in chasing the man during
that traffic stop. Here, in fact, is some audio related
(01:37):
to yesterday's testimony.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Letting someone flee from a traffic stop for an improper
plate is certainly better than getting into a fight and
losing or getting shot in the back by an assailant
that you couldn't keep an eye on because you were
running away from an occupied suspect vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And then the law professor there claimed that Patrick Leoya
never had an advantage over officer Christopher Sure when Christopher
Sure fired that deadly shot to the back of the
head that killed him, there.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Was no ability, there was no physical capacity for mister
Leoya to incapacitate the officer with anything.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Brian Morley was a police officer and now he's an
attorney with Butzel. He's on our AT and T line
having been there, not at that particular situation, but in
situations of his own. Thank you for being back on
the program, sir.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Thank you. Good morning.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Michael Patrick Well, Okay, to put it simply, in case
somebody wasn't following, this thirty three year old officer or
thereabouts pulled over Patrick Leoya, who's from the Congo, and
Leoya got out of the car and Sure asked him
do you speak English? He said that he did, and
(02:47):
then he started running and the officer chased him. They
got into a struggle over his taser, and out came
a gun to the back of Looya's head and shot
him and killed him. Now he's being charged with second
degree murder. As I understand it, and it was over
basically a license plate that was expired or a registration
(03:09):
that wasn't complete, something like that. Meanwhile, someone was in
the car videotaping it, and there was a somebody on
the porch watching it all happen too, and supposedly back
up was on the way, but they were on the
ground struggling. Is that Are those the germane facts the
case as you know them?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Yes, everything I've heard, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
From your perspective as a police officer and an attorney,
interesting position to be in. Talk to us.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Before you you brought me on. You reference the prosecutor saying,
wor's the effect of that he created his own peril,
and then the expert witness saying he can't prove that
there was any threat or something to that effect. Take
those in order, creating his own peril. Personally, I disagree
(04:08):
with that. And I don't know if this is a
lawyer opinion or just a citizen opinion, But where's that
fine line between anarchy and control? We have not control.
It might be the wrong word. But if you or
I get pulled over and we just run away, well
the police can get a warrant, and they may or
(04:30):
they may not. But you're not supposed to run away
from the police. So I disagree he stopped him for
a valid reason. An improper plate may not sound that important.
Oftentimes it's indicative of stolen car or an unregistered and
uninsured vehicle. So even though it's not, it is a
(04:51):
proof of a murderous intent, not at all. And then
I don't want to pretend like I'm smarter than an
expert witness, but to say that he can't show that
there were I forget the exact words you use, Michael Patrick,
but to say that he can't show that there was
a risk of him being overcome or something like that,
I don't think you can say that. We can all
(05:13):
look at it and we can all draw our own
subjective conclusions. But big guy, the thing that caught me
the most, and I've kind of changed my opinion on
this a little bit, is the officer continually says, let
go of the taser, not lay down, stop, quit punching me,
anything like that. The officer is focused on the taser,
(05:36):
and we can get deep into the weeds on well,
the taser was fired, and fired twice, so it was inoperative.
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. But boy, when you're
in the heat of the moment like that, did I
fire once or twice? I don't know. I'm not going
to take a chance, so I I don't think that's
accurate either. When I say I changed my tune on this,
(05:57):
I think from a legal perspective, the optics of this
matter are horrible. Shooting a guy on the ground in
the back of the head horrible optics. And I don't
think the ends justify the means. You know, we knew
he was drunk, we knew there were other things about him.
The ends don't justify the means. But the officer was
(06:17):
in the middle. It was in the middle of what
was going to be It's more than just a fight.
The guy was bigger than the officer. He had control,
that's true, he had control of what could be construed
as probably not deadly for us. But if the officer
got tased, he's going to be incapacitated. Ergo, his gun
(06:40):
is going to be incapacitated. That's my take on all
of this. It's a close call in my opinion. It's
certainly not a slam dunk either. Way when this started,
I thought it was I thought it was a bad shoot.
As you dig deeper and looked into it and understanding,
Michael Patrick, I've said this to you before. In my opinion,
no cop wakes up before his shift and says, I'm
(07:02):
gonna shoot somebody today. I think every cop wakes up
before their shift and says, if I have to to
make sure I go home tonight, I will shoot somebody.
So and this kid seems like a really nice kid,
good family from what I hear. I don't think he
said at eight or nine o'clock in the morning or
whatever it was, I'm going to shoot that guy because
(07:24):
he's drunk, or because of an expired plate or an
improper plate, or his race or anything like that. So
it's these split second decisions which brings me back to
and I'm rambling here, but the expert saying, he can't
show that he could be overcome. You can't say that
you weren't there.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Do you think that officer sure today wishes he'd just
watched Patrick leyle run away.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Fascinating question because of the ramifications against him. Probably probably
in terms of being able to look in the mirror
at yourself as a man. Probably not. I mean, I
did what I think I had to do in the situation,
and it came down to it's like I said earlier,
(08:16):
came down to him or meet. In my opinion, if
I got tased, I probably would have gotten shot. And
I didn't get shot, and I go home with my
wife and kids. So when I say the ramifications I
read the other day that he's in a job outside
law enforcement. Let's be honest. If he's acquitted in this matter,
(08:36):
especially with the way society is, I don't see him
getting hired in law enforcement again. So to that extent, yeah,
I wish I wouldn't have so I could still be
a cop. In terms of being a man, I did
what I truly believed in.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
We'll continue with Brian Morley at Buttsall. He was a
police officer now an attorney with MPs.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Like all the chaser, who's this woman?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
What he?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Officer? Christer for sure? The former and Grand Rapids in
a struggle with Patrick Leoya after a traffic stop that
ended in the death of Lioya with a gun to
the back of the head. Now the officer is facing
second degree murder charges in Grand Rapids. As we speak.
It's Michael Patrick Shields with you and Brian Morley, who
was a police officer in Flint, of all places, is
(09:52):
now an attorney with Butzell, and we're discussing the case
which is being laid out right now for a jury.
And that is a struggle there that you hear, and
you can see the video if you really need to.
But when you are trained as a police officer, Brian Morley,
you pull somebody over for something simple like that, they
(10:15):
appear to be a radic, They get out of the
car first and foremost, which I'm now taught you're not
supposed to do. Then they run if you let them go,
and you call back to the station and say, well
I pulled the guy over and he ran, And they say,
and what did you do? I stood there and watch
him run away? How's that going to go over?
Speaker 4 (10:41):
My instant reaction to this is and it was a
long time ago that I was in law enforcement, but
police work is a macho profession and I hope I'm
not being offensive with that, or at least it was,
and that would be my that's a personal concern.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
That why do you let him go?
Speaker 4 (11:04):
But that's also human nature. Look in this particular situation,
I'm in charge and I'm enforcing the law. So get
back in your card. Don't run for me, you run
for me. I'm going to stop human nature. It's police training.
I think I said this earlier, but the one expert
said he didn't or no excuse me. The prosecutor said
(11:25):
he didn't need to create his own peril. But where
to draw that line? So I think it's human nature. Yes,
you can step back and get a warrant for him
and go through the process. And I guess when I said,
what's the line between anarchy and the reasonable society? Not
(11:47):
necessarily law enforcement's job, it is to a degree that
I was to say, it's not necessarily law enforcement's job
to reign in anarchy, and that's that's melodramatic. But if
we don't, then what So was this tiki tachi at
the outset the underlying crime? Yes? Could it have been
(12:08):
a lot more? Yes? And how do you make those
split second decisions? And candidly? At least in my opinion,
the focus on the stop and everything up until the
shoot is smoking mirrors. In my opinion, he made a
decision to chase the guy for resisting obstructing and a
misdemeanor offense. It's my decision. It's everybody excess, whether you're
(12:30):
law enforcement or not. We all make discretionary calls all day,
every day. It's why I like being a lawyer, get
to use yoursmit a discretionary call. I think all of
that is smoking mears. How they got to the final confrontation,
if you will, is irrelevant in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So let's focus then as it comes down to the
struggle on the ground for the taser and the side
arm that's attached to the officer as well. When he
keeps imploring him to, like the tasers, stop resisting, stop resisting,
then it's a fight, perhaps for his life. Some people
(13:09):
said if he could have just wrestled a little longer that,
you know, backup was on the way. That's an interesting
thing I'd like to hear somebody try to do that.
You know, it's easier said than done. Yeah, but when
you're trained as a police officer to shoot someone, are
you trained to shoot to disable to kill? What is
(13:29):
the training in that situation.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
I was always taught to say that you shoot to stop,
and then we get into the are you matching deadly
force with deadly force, which I don't think necessarily applies
directly in this matter, because at least in my thought
process and explanation, you're taking it an extra step. If
(13:55):
you got my taser, you're going to kill me with
that now unless I have a hard condition or something.
But if you get my taser and you stun me
and I'm out for three to five seconds, they're going
to get my gun and kill me with that. So
that's why Sarah imagine deadly force with deadly forced, not necessarily.
But and then to say, if you could have just
fought a little bit longer until backup got there, well
(14:18):
it might. It's nice to say backup a minute away
and you can hear the sirens coming and it's a
cool feeling, but that's still a minute. That's still sixty
seconds of fighting with somebody trying to get taser. And
you probably don't want to admit it, but you're scared
to death at that point. And then it's I have
to make a split second decision, and it's it's instinctual.
(14:41):
It's not like he's contemplating in his mind. Eyed if
this guy rolls over one more time, then I'm gonna
shoot him. I think it's just instinct and you gotta rely.
We all do in any area of life, but I
think police works it's especially important. Got to go with
your instinct.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And if he'd shot him anywhere but the back of
the head, would we be even having this discussion.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yes, That's why I said earlier. I think I think
it's just optically they looked bad. A shooter is a
shoot if he shot him, you can't shoot the disabled,
you shoot to stop. And the reason I kind of
laughed at that earlier is I was taught that when
I was young, because lawyers will say if you shoot
to kill, you shoot to stop. If you're using deadly
(15:27):
force and shooting to stop, and that's really semantics. But
irrespective of where he would have shot him, did it
look bad getting shot in the back of the head, Yes,
does it sound bad anytime somebody gets shot in the back,
of course, But if he made the decision to shoot,
that's the issue, regardless of where he was shot.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
If you were defending officer, sure Christopher, sure, former officer,
would you have him testify.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Well, that's a great question. So the defense to turning
in Mace's absolutely not. I don't know Chris Becker, but
he's been around for a while. You'd always be concerned.
Probably not, I don't know what the benefit would be.
You'd want to hear from them. I'm sure you and
I would love to hear from them. What were you thinking?
(16:18):
I don't want to admit it, but I was scared
to death. Amazing.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Well, I mean, we'll keep in touch. Thank you so
much for your perspective. At Butzel, It's Brian Morley.
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Honestly to put yourself.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good morning, It's Michael Patrick Shields, good afternoon, good evening,
whenever you may be listening, wherever you may be listening,
and all the ships at sea, it's Michael Patrick Shields
with you through the AT and T microphones. And in
Grand Rapids, where were heard on w t KG, and
in Michigan and in the United States of America, we're
(00:53):
watching with great intrigue and great sadness. As an expert
witness was called by the Kent County Prosecutor Chris Becker
yesterday saying that former Grand Rapids police officer Christopher Sure
created jeopardy when he chased after Patrick Leoya in April
twenty twenty two at a traffic stop. South Carolina School
(01:16):
of Law professor Seth Stouton testified that Shure exposed himself
to some unnecessary technical risk in chasing the man during
that traffic stop. Here, in fact, is some audio related
(01:37):
to yesterday's testimony.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Letting someone flee from a traffic stop for an improper
plate is certainly better than getting into a fight and
losing or getting shot in the back by an assailant
that you couldn't keep an eye on because you were
running away from an occupied suspect vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
And then the law professor there claimed that Patrick Leoya
never had an advantage over officer Christopher Sure when Christopher
Sure fired that deadly shot to the back of the
head that killed him, there.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Was no ability, there was no physical capacity for mister
Leoya to incapacitate the officer with anything.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Brian Morley was a police officer and now he's an
attorney with Butzel. He's on our AT and T line
having been there, not at that particular situation, but in
situations of his own. Thank you for being back on
the program, sir.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Thank you. Good morning.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Michael Patrick Well, Okay, to put it simply, in case
somebody wasn't following, this thirty three year old officer or
thereabouts pulled over Patrick Leoya, who's from the Congo, and
Leoya got out of the car and Sure asked him
do you speak English? He said that he did, and
(02:47):
then he started running and the officer chased him. They
got into a struggle over his taser, and out came
a gun to the back of Looya's head and shot
him and killed him. Now he's being charged with second
degree murder. As I understand it, and it was over
basically a license plate that was expired or a registration
(03:09):
that wasn't complete, something like that. Meanwhile, someone was in
the car videotaping it, and there was a somebody on
the porch watching it all happen too, and supposedly back
up was on the way, but they were on the
ground struggling. Is that Are those the germane facts the
case as you know them?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Yes, everything I've heard, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
From your perspective as a police officer and an attorney,
interesting position to be in. Talk to us.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Before you you brought me on. You reference the prosecutor saying,
wor's the effect of that he created his own peril,
and then the expert witness saying he can't prove that
there was any threat or something to that effect. Take
those in order, creating his own peril. Personally, I disagree
(04:08):
with that. And I don't know if this is a
lawyer opinion or just a citizen opinion, But where's that
fine line between anarchy and control? We have not control.
It might be the wrong word. But if you or
I get pulled over and we just run away, well
the police can get a warrant, and they may or
(04:30):
they may not. But you're not supposed to run away
from the police. So I disagree he stopped him for
a valid reason. An improper plate may not sound that important.
Oftentimes it's indicative of stolen car or an unregistered and
uninsured vehicle. So even though it's not, it is a
(04:51):
proof of a murderous intent, not at all. And then
I don't want to pretend like I'm smarter than an
expert witness, but to say that he can't show that
there were I forget the exact words you use, Michael Patrick,
but to say that he can't show that there was
a risk of him being overcome or something like that,
I don't think you can say that. We can all
(05:13):
look at it and we can all draw our own
subjective conclusions. But big guy, the thing that caught me
the most, and I've kind of changed my opinion on
this a little bit, is the officer continually says, let
go of the taser, not lay down, stop, quit punching me,
anything like that. The officer is focused on the taser,
(05:36):
and we can get deep into the weeds on well,
the taser was fired, and fired twice, so it was inoperative.
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. But boy, when you're
in the heat of the moment like that, did I
fire once or twice? I don't know. I'm not going
to take a chance, so I I don't think that's
accurate either. When I say I changed my tune on this,
(05:57):
I think from a legal perspective, the optics of this
matter are horrible. Shooting a guy on the ground in
the back of the head horrible optics. And I don't
think the ends justify the means. You know, we knew
he was drunk, we knew there were other things about him.
The ends don't justify the means. But the officer was
(06:17):
in the middle. It was in the middle of what
was going to be It's more than just a fight.
The guy was bigger than the officer. He had control,
that's true, he had control of what could be construed
as probably not deadly for us. But if the officer
got tased, he's going to be incapacitated. Ergo, his gun
(06:40):
is going to be incapacitated. That's my take on all
of this. It's a close call in my opinion. It's
certainly not a slam dunk either. Way when this started,
I thought it was I thought it was a bad shoot.
As you dig deeper and looked into it and understanding,
Michael Patrick, I've said this to you before. In my opinion,
no cop wakes up before his shift and says, I'm
(07:02):
gonna shoot somebody today. I think every cop wakes up
before their shift and says, if I have to to
make sure I go home tonight, I will shoot somebody.
So and this kid seems like a really nice kid,
good family from what I hear. I don't think he
said at eight or nine o'clock in the morning or
whatever it was, I'm going to shoot that guy because
(07:24):
he's drunk, or because of an expired plate or an
improper plate, or his race or anything like that. So
it's these split second decisions which brings me back to
and I'm rambling here, but the expert saying, he can't
show that he could be overcome. You can't say that
you weren't there.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Do you think that officer sure today wishes he'd just
watched Patrick leyle run away.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Fascinating question because of the ramifications against him. Probably probably
in terms of being able to look in the mirror
at yourself as a man. Probably not. I mean, I
did what I think I had to do in the situation,
and it came down to it's like I said earlier,
(08:16):
came down to him or meet. In my opinion, if
I got tased, I probably would have gotten shot. And
I didn't get shot, and I go home with my
wife and kids. So when I say the ramifications I
read the other day that he's in a job outside
law enforcement. Let's be honest. If he's acquitted in this matter,
(08:36):
especially with the way society is, I don't see him
getting hired in law enforcement again. So to that extent, yeah,
I wish I wouldn't have so I could still be
a cop. In terms of being a man, I did
what I truly believed in.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
We'll continue with Brian Morley at Buttsall. He was a
police officer now an attorney with MPs.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Like all the chaser, who's this woman?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
What he?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Officer? Christer for sure? The former and Grand Rapids in
a struggle with Patrick Leoya after a traffic stop that
ended in the death of Lioya with a gun to
the back of the head. Now the officer is facing
second degree murder charges in Grand Rapids. As we speak.
It's Michael Patrick Shields with you and Brian Morley, who
was a police officer in Flint, of all places, is
(09:52):
now an attorney with Butzell, and we're discussing the case
which is being laid out right now for a jury.
And that is a struggle there that you hear, and
you can see the video if you really need to.
But when you are trained as a police officer, Brian Morley,
you pull somebody over for something simple like that, they
(10:15):
appear to be a radic, They get out of the
car first and foremost, which I'm now taught you're not
supposed to do. Then they run if you let them go,
and you call back to the station and say, well
I pulled the guy over and he ran, And they say,
and what did you do? I stood there and watch
him run away? How's that going to go over?
Speaker 4 (10:41):
My instant reaction to this is and it was a
long time ago that I was in law enforcement, but
police work is a macho profession and I hope I'm
not being offensive with that, or at least it was,
and that would be my that's a personal concern.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
That why do you let him go?
Speaker 4 (11:04):
But that's also human nature. Look in this particular situation,
I'm in charge and I'm enforcing the law. So get
back in your card. Don't run for me, you run
for me. I'm going to stop human nature. It's police training.
I think I said this earlier, but the one expert
said he didn't or no excuse me. The prosecutor said
(11:25):
he didn't need to create his own peril. But where
to draw that line? So I think it's human nature. Yes,
you can step back and get a warrant for him
and go through the process. And I guess when I said,
what's the line between anarchy and the reasonable society? Not
(11:47):
necessarily law enforcement's job, it is to a degree that
I was to say, it's not necessarily law enforcement's job
to reign in anarchy, and that's that's melodramatic. But if
we don't, then what So was this tiki tachi at
the outset the underlying crime? Yes? Could it have been
(12:08):
a lot more? Yes? And how do you make those
split second decisions? And candidly? At least in my opinion,
the focus on the stop and everything up until the
shoot is smoking mirrors. In my opinion, he made a
decision to chase the guy for resisting obstructing and a
misdemeanor offense. It's my decision. It's everybody excess, whether you're
(12:30):
law enforcement or not. We all make discretionary calls all day,
every day. It's why I like being a lawyer, get
to use yoursmit a discretionary call. I think all of
that is smoking mears. How they got to the final confrontation,
if you will, is irrelevant in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So let's focus then as it comes down to the
struggle on the ground for the taser and the side
arm that's attached to the officer as well. When he
keeps imploring him to, like the tasers, stop resisting, stop resisting,
then it's a fight, perhaps for his life. Some people
(13:09):
said if he could have just wrestled a little longer that,
you know, backup was on the way. That's an interesting
thing I'd like to hear somebody try to do that.
You know, it's easier said than done. Yeah, but when
you're trained as a police officer to shoot someone, are
you trained to shoot to disable to kill? What is
(13:29):
the training in that situation.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
I was always taught to say that you shoot to stop,
and then we get into the are you matching deadly
force with deadly force, which I don't think necessarily applies
directly in this matter, because at least in my thought
process and explanation, you're taking it an extra step. If
(13:55):
you got my taser, you're going to kill me with
that now unless I have a hard condition or something.
But if you get my taser and you stun me
and I'm out for three to five seconds, they're going
to get my gun and kill me with that. So
that's why Sarah imagine deadly force with deadly forced, not necessarily.
But and then to say, if you could have just
fought a little bit longer until backup got there, well
(14:18):
it might. It's nice to say backup a minute away
and you can hear the sirens coming and it's a
cool feeling, but that's still a minute. That's still sixty
seconds of fighting with somebody trying to get taser. And
you probably don't want to admit it, but you're scared
to death at that point. And then it's I have
to make a split second decision, and it's it's instinctual.
(14:41):
It's not like he's contemplating in his mind. Eyed if
this guy rolls over one more time, then I'm gonna
shoot him. I think it's just instinct and you gotta rely.
We all do in any area of life, but I
think police works it's especially important. Got to go with
your instinct.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And if he'd shot him anywhere but the back of
the head, would we be even having this discussion.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yes, That's why I said earlier. I think I think
it's just optically they looked bad. A shooter is a
shoot if he shot him, you can't shoot the disabled,
you shoot to stop. And the reason I kind of
laughed at that earlier is I was taught that when
I was young, because lawyers will say if you shoot
to kill, you shoot to stop. If you're using deadly
(15:27):
force and shooting to stop, and that's really semantics. But
irrespective of where he would have shot him, did it
look bad getting shot in the back of the head, Yes,
does it sound bad anytime somebody gets shot in the back,
of course, But if he made the decision to shoot,
that's the issue, regardless of where he was shot.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
If you were defending officer, sure Christopher, sure, former officer,
would you have him testify.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Well, that's a great question. So the defense to turning
in Mace's absolutely not. I don't know Chris Becker, but
he's been around for a while. You'd always be concerned.
Probably not, I don't know what the benefit would be.
You'd want to hear from them. I'm sure you and
I would love to hear from them. What were you thinking?
(16:18):
I don't want to admit it, but I was scared
to death. Amazing.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Well, I mean, we'll keep in touch. Thank you so
much for your perspective. At Butzel, It's Brian Morley.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
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Real Estate Company. Brent and his team take a holistic
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(16:53):
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Speaker 6 (17:00):
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