* Nicholas DiPucchio, History Professor at Oakland University

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Classes in session here at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan,
where the Golden Grizzlies are learning about history and they're
shaping our future too. It's Michael Patrick Shields here. And
it took me to get to the age of about
fifty five to realize how much I love learning, because
when I was in school, of course, I just wanted
to get a job. And now I love to learn

(00:29):
for learning's sake. We have a new professor here at
Oakland University, Nicholas de Puccio, who is a You're in
the history department. What is your correct actual title?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, I'm an assistant professor of history here at Oakland
and that's what you studied where So I actually did
my undergrad here at Oakland University, and the really dynamic
professors here inspired me to go off and get a
doctor at Saint Louis University.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Okay, and that was specializing in what.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Early American history, specifically the age of revs. And so
the American Revolution broadly defined in all sorts of different contexts.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
We're coming up on a significant date in regards to
the birth of our nation.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
See correct, Yeah, We're coming up on a number of
different dates in twenty twenty six the two hundred and
fiftieth anniversary of American independence, of course, but the whole
year is just centered around imagining, declaring, and trying to
secure independence, because it's one thing to declare independence, but

(01:32):
it's a whole other thing to win it on the
battlefield as well. So there's a number of upcoming dates
related to American independence. So like the next couple of weeks,
i'd imagine we'll be celebrating the two hundred and fiftieth
anniversary of Thomas Paine's Common Sense being published on January tenth,
and that before that was published, most Americans didn't want

(01:55):
to break from the British Empire and instead sought to
you know, said there, you know, express their grievances and
have them reconciled within the British Empire. But Thomas Paine
advocated Americans to think ambitiously, to think of creating a
nation founded on principles of liberty, equality and freedom, one

(02:17):
that would set an example to the rest of the world. Then,
of course there's July second, when Congress actually voted to
declare independence, and John Adams even thought, hey, you know,
this is going to be the day of fireworks and barbecues.
He just happened to be two days off because two
days later, on July fourth, Congress approved the language of

(02:37):
the declaration.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
But then that was well after the Boston Tea Party.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Then correct, yep, So the Boston Tea Party had led
to a series of really coursive acts that intensified the
conflict between the colonists and the British. But after independence
was was declared, they still had to win it on
the battlefield too.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
And that's when Paul Revere came round.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Paul Revere came around in the lead up to the
battles of Lexington and Concer. He's the one that warns
about the British troops are coming. So Paul Revere's claim
to fame happens before independence is declared, but it's really
after independence has declared. What's really interesting is the revolutionary

(03:29):
forces don't do too well. In fact, George Washington on
August twenty seventh loses the Battle of Long Island and
they actually lose New York City for the rest of
the Revolutionary War, and so many Americans are like thinking
independence just might not be possible. But then there's another
key Battle the Battle of Trenton on December twenty sixth,

(03:49):
seventeen seventy six. This is this moment where Washington crosses
the Delaware on the night of Christmas and surprises a
bunch of drunk Hessian soldiers who were celebrating Christmas night before.
And these Hessians were fighting on behalf of the British
and this victory had convinced many Americans that independence was possible.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
What would have happened then if the Revolutionary war was
not successful? Would we have just been like Canada?

Speaker 3 (04:18):
It's possible. It's hard to.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Imagine what a United States would be like or the
North American colonies would be like if they rejoined the
British Empire. But I think this whole year of seventeen
seventy six, as we're reflecting on all these anniversaries, that
your question is a really good one because it makes
us think that independence wasn't guaranteed and there was a
possibility of rejoining the British Empire. And throughout the war,

(04:45):
some of the leading American revolutionaries were contemplating rejoining the
British Empire, including the first diplomat overseas, Silas Dean, and
so it's a really there's a lot of contingencies and
uncertainties as Americans are navigating independence. So there would have
been a possibility they would have rejoined the British Empire,
maybe under some new terms where they might have a

(05:06):
representative in Parliament, or they might have more autonomy than
the British would have liked.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Do you think our lives would have been much different?

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Certainly, yes. I would imagine that being a part of
the British Empire would have in some ways open new
directions for expansion. They may have the e colonists may
have expanded more northward into Canada. There would have been,

(05:41):
you know, greater restrictions on westward expansion into territories controlled
by Native Americans.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
And so the size of.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
The British North American colonies, if they remained in the
British Empire, might look different. The map of North America
might look different in some states may have eventually ories
would have eventually broken away and formed their own republic
or their own country. So North America is very dynamic
and contingent. So we just think that the United States
was destined to emerge. Many Americans living in seventeen seventy six,

(06:14):
thought that the British could have dominated North America themselves.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
This is a dumb question, and then we'll take a
short break and come back. But did the Revolutionary army
have any allies in the battle?

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, so the revolutionaries had a number of allies to counter.
So there were some Native American nations like the Oneida
who actually sided with the American Revolutionaries and helped.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Them in battles. But the big player was France.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
So France enters the war in seventeen seventy eight, and
their whole goal is to get revenge against the British
because they had lost a previous conflict with them, and
so they were pouring in resources and money and supply
in naval support, which actually proved to be the real
big turning point, in fact, the really decisive battle in

(07:08):
the American Revolutionary War, the Battle of Yorktown, was not
possible without the French. French soldiers and the French navy
helped Washington defeat Lord Cornwallis at Yorktown.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
So the enemy of my enemy was my friend in this.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Case, correct, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
The French were not motivated by the American Revolution's promise
of liberty, equality, and freedom, largely because they had colonies
of their own and they didn't like the idea of
that revolutionary rhetoric spreading far, and then it ends up
spreading far into their own country, and then you have
the French Revolution a few years later.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
So I say, we will take a break, but I'm
curious to know why history for you?

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah? Why history for me? So it started at an early age.
I had a grand I think anyone who's really passionate
about history had someone in their life, whether it was
a teacher, a parent, or grand parent that inspired their passion.
And for me, it was my grandfather who, as a
teenager would take me on all these trips across the

(08:08):
country to Fort Necessity, Gettysburg, and so on. And so
just being there, present in the moment reminded me that
history is not just memorizing facts and dates. It's so
much more than that. And I think for anyone who
has any interest in sitting history, you're really fulfilling that
mission of America two fifty. If we're thinking about the

(08:29):
Republic established in seventeen seventy six, the founders wanted their
citizens to be educated. They wanted them to study history.
They wanted them to know about the history of republics,
because republics are so fragile, and so if you can
understand the history of Rome, the history of our own country,
you'll be better equipped to be a better citizen in

(08:50):
this nation.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
That's our next question. When we get back to Oakland
University in Rochester, Michigan. Hey, wait a minute, I'm back

(09:11):
at Oakland University and I'm talking to history professor Nick
Depuccio about the US history. And I just heard you
tell Brian Bierley that Ireland once had a chance of
being one of the United States of America.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, so this is really fascinating. So when Ben Franklin
was imagining the first Articles of Confederation, this union of
different colonies and states, he included Ireland in his proposals
with this idea that all the British colonies, including the
colonies in the Caribbean like the Barbados in Jamaica and Bermuda,

(09:48):
would join this confederacy of British colonies, and that if
the British didn't address their grievances in Parliament, this confederacy,
which included Ireland, would be perpetual. The Irish thought themselves
of being a part of that confederacy as another story,
but they certainly were contemplating independence in their time too.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
You mentioned in the last segment that republics are fragile.
Are we fragile still to this day?

Speaker 2 (10:15):
I would imagine so? And so the thing I will
say about that is that, you know, the founders were
thinking about republics. History taught them that they were extremely fragile.
So they always look to the example of ancient Rome. Right,
Rome fell to Caesar, the Roman Republic fell to Caesar

(10:36):
and then Augustus. And so when they were establishing the republic,
they were always weary about ambitious individuals, those who were
motivated by self interest in private gain. And therefore whenever
they had a political rival in Congress, they're like, oh,
this is the next this is the Caesar of America.

(10:56):
And so throughout America's history, even up to this day,
we're always ident to find potential Caesars who might undermine
are our institutions for self gain?

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Do we have one? Now?

Speaker 2 (11:10):
I mean it depends on who you ask, right, I'm
sure individuals on the left and the right can point
out caesars much in the same way that the Federalists
and the Democratic Republicans of the early Republic were pointing
fingers at Washington, at Hamilton, at Jefferson and Madison. And
so it really depends on who you ask. But I'm
sure if you were to pull someone on the left

(11:31):
or someone on the right, they can identify at least
Tence Julius Caesars on the other side of the political aisle.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
But from an academic standpoint, then in one hundred years
will there still be a United States of America.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love this question because I would imagine that Americans
in eighteen seventy six we're grappling with this question that
Americans in nineteen seventy six were grappling with the same question. So,
as a maorians are approaching the three hundred and fiftieth
anniversary of the American Revolution. Unless some miracle happens, I

(12:06):
don't think any of us will be here for that
present moment, but they will be actually asking the same
questions we're asking ourselves to this day. You know, was
twenty twenty six a moment in which Americans advanced the
principles of the American Revolution. Were they committed to freedom
of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion? Were

(12:28):
they committed to liberty, equality and in you know, economic
opportunities for all or did we backslide on that? Did
we end up falling back and retreating from those values?
And so Americans as a approach the three hundred and
fiftieth anniversary will look at twenty twenty six as one
of those moments, and how we reflect in our present

(12:50):
moment about the historical memory of the American Revolution will
be not too disimilar from how they reflect on those moments.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
You mentioned that your grandfather got you intrigued by history.
If you're going to take your students on a field
trip from Oakland University to one spot in America to
ground them and inspire them, and we can go to
you know, we're listening, where would that be.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
It depends on the budget. If I have an unlimited budget,
I'll go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
He won the power ball.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
You're all set, Oh, okay, Well I'm thinking If I'm
thinking practically though, I'm thinking about Philadelphia, because.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
You know, one thing that's really great about.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Philadelphia is a lot of the sites that were where
the founders were thinking through the creation of this nation
are still present. So Independence Hall is where they contemplated
creating an independent nation. You have other things like the
liberty bell, which you know made them. There's liberty bells

(13:49):
throughout the country, but this was one that made them
like think through the values of the republic that they
were creating. But there's also a number of other things
like the Museum of the American Revolution, where they have
an abundance of material culture related to the revolution and so.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
And then of course you.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Could just walk the streets of old Philadelphia and really
be immersed in that moment and think through. This is
where you know George Washington walked as he was thinking
through the creation of the nation. Here's where Thomas Jefferson
was wandering as he was procrastinating and writing the Declaration
of Independence. And here's Ben Franklin. Well, Ben Franklin's all
over that city. You have to go very far to

(14:28):
find Ben Franklin's where he was present in this moment
in this area and so on. So I would take
Oakland University students to Philadelphia.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
And here's where the seventy six ers plays. Yeah, I
want too.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Before we go.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
The Dennis Muchmore series Policy series will be very much
as I understand it involved in the historical aspect. This year,
and there's a timeline of sorts you're working on.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, So Oakland University is going to be hosting a
number of or they're planning on hosting a number of
initiatives on campus in celebration of the values of the
American Revolution. So there will be there's plans for performances,
art galleries, book displays.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
But what's really exciting and we have a bunch of
history lectures as well as part of the History Comes
a live lecture series.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
But one thing I'm really excited about is.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
This winter, me with two other colleagues are going to
be offering a course on the historical memory of the
American Revolution. So not just a course on the history
of the American Revolution, but how different generations of Americans
thought about seventeen seventy six and used it to bring
about political, cultural, and social change. And so by the
end of the course, the students will be creating a

(15:42):
timeline where they picked the dates that they think matter
and the nations splently fifty years of history and how
it makes them think about seventeen seventy six. And so
like many generations of Americans before them, they'll be thinking
about what the American Revolution means to them, what's really
exciting is once this timeline, these dates are established. The

(16:04):
plan is in the summer, graphic design students will be
creating the timeline. It will be potentially featured in the
Oakland Center and viewable for the public to see.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
We are gonna I'm like Colombo, you're too young to
remember him, But I got one more question. If you
can stay after this break, we'll continue here in Rochester.
This is why he wanted to come to school here,
because you just can't get enough. Nicholas Depuccio with MPs

(16:37):
back at Oakland University. The bell rang, but just a
couple of after class questions. One of them really a
lot of people will say, that's not in the constitution.
They cling to the Constitution to make the decisions and
the laws and judgments on the laws. Is it outdated?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
So that's a really great question. And I think the
best answer I can give you is that when the
framers of the Constitution in the late seventeen eighties were
trying to imagine a better way to revise the Articles
of Confederation, they quickly realized that they're in a room

(17:19):
with people from different states with different economic and political interest,
and so the Constitution as it emerged was a series
of compromises.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
And when George Washington.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Left the Constitutional Convention, he thought to himself, this is
a work in progress. It is something that will need
to be refined. It's not perfect in the moment. And
many of them agreed on that. And one of the
issues that they quickly discovered was there was no Bill
of rights. And so James Madison wrote to Thomas Jefferson,

(17:51):
who was in Paris, and said, what do you think
of the Constitution? And Jefferson replied, I think there's a
number of defects with it, and the most notably of
them all is that there is no bill of rights
protecting the citizens' rights to freedom of speech and press
and so on. And so the founders and the framers

(18:11):
understood it as a working document, is something that needs
to be improved on over time. But as different generations
have emerged and grappled with the Constitution, they all situated
in their own context and try to make sense of it.
What does the Constitution mean in the eighteen sixties amid
the Civil War? What does it mean during the Great Depression?
As America's economy is collapsing and what does it mean

(18:34):
in our own time? And so I think that's the
most helpful way to think about the Constitution and whether it's.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Dated or not.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
That they always used it as a work in progress
that could be improved on, and it just depends on
which what generation or which generation interprets it as something
that should be set in stone or something that can
be improved on.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
It's very hard to make changes though, yeah, correct, yeah, yeah,
that's a trick of it. Oakland University is waiting for you,
and it's very very good. I hope you don't mind,
will speak with you throughout the year. Nicholas de Puccio here,
the professor at Oakland Youth.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Is an absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you, thank you.