April 20, 2025 • 21 mins
The Millennium Group Sessions Redux returns with a brand new episode celebrating the 25th anniversary of the series premiere on October 25th, 1996.
Today we talk with writer and producer Frank Spotnitz about his time on the series and his thoughts on its future.
Host - Troy L. Foreman
Special guest - Frank Spotnitz
Follow us on Twitter - @tiwwamm
Website - www,thetimeisnowmm.com
Podcast Intro - Lance Henriksen
Today we talk with writer and producer Frank Spotnitz about his time on the series and his thoughts on its future.
Host - Troy L. Foreman
Special guest - Frank Spotnitz
Follow us on Twitter - @tiwwamm
Website - www,thetimeisnowmm.com
Podcast Intro - Lance Henriksen
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
After a decade, the time is now, the wave is
becoming title. Join us in the campaign for the return
of the FBI Criminal Profiler, Frank Black and Millennium. This
is the back to Frank Black Millennium group sessions. My friends,
(00:26):
this is who we are.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
First question is it might be kind of an open
ended one, but obviously you know the twenty fifth anniverses
coming up in October.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
And although the show.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Didn't didn't achieve the success of The X Files in
television and you know, the pop culture landscape, I do
think in it's own riot, the series was its own
success and had its own place in the television hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I guess you could say in history. Would you agree
with that?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Yeah, I think. You know, we've talked about this before.
I think the show didn't reach the popularity of The
X Files, but the impact the show had on the
people who saw it was really profound. And I meet
people all the time who say, you know, I like
The X Files. Millennium, Wow, I really loved Millenium because
Millennium was was really uncompromising in its way, and I think, honestly,
(01:26):
I think that's probably why it limited the size of
its audience, particularly in a network television landscape, you know,
there are only so many people who are going to
buy into that vision, and there's a lot of pressure,
especially in the first season, to try to lighten the
vision or or compromise that we resisted, and I think
that's why, you know, you're still talking about it, We're
(01:50):
still talking about twenty five years later. So it was
both you know, what was great about it and also
what kind of probably kept it from being more popular
than it was.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
To tip Johannason and he said he had mentioned how
difficult it was to getting episodes out for that show,
and that it seemed like you were writing a movie
script every week and it was hard to get these
episodes out the door.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Would you agree with that.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Yeah, I think it was very much a movie type
story every week, and and there's a lot of thought into,
you know, the mythology of it, not just the series,
but every episode. So you know, it was really an
ambitious show, and when it worked, I think, you know,
(02:34):
it worked as well as anything else that's been done
for television.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Your very first episode, which is one of my favorite episodes, Weeds,
was the first one you wrote for the series.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Do you remember your inspiration for that episode.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
You know, it was really about fathers and sons and
the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons
and that, you know, I always saw what was interesting
about Millennium, especially in the first season, was the logic
of the serial killers, and the more resonant that logic was,
the more interesting they were, as as as prey for
(03:13):
Frank Black, And in a very different way in Sacrament
I kind of explored the same idea, which was, you know,
not so much the sins of the fathers, but sort
of the gifts of the fathers, if you will, you know,
the gift that Frank had and how that affected Jordan.
But that's an interesting theme to me, just generations and
(03:34):
fathers and sons.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Thinking back on your initial, you know, approach to the
work on the show, Jason asked me this question. Was
there anything that you might have done differently on the
show besides the obvious cohesiveness of linking to three seasons,
Were there any tones or thematic elements you might have
steered differently.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Yeah, I think it's it's one of those shows that
we found as we went along, and that changed dramatically
each of the three seasons. So I certainly had no
idea from the first episode what the show was going
to become. I don't think anybody did. And I think
in the beginning, I mean, I know, I said again,
(04:13):
I've said this to you before. I think that that
first hour is as good or better than anything Chris
ever wrote, which is saying a lot, because Chris is
such an incredible writer. And I remember seeing it in
a in a theater in Los Angeles because Fox so
proud of it that they rented out theaters for the
for the premiere, and just being absolutely blown away by
(04:35):
it as a piece of filmmaking and a piece of television.
But we certainly didn't know where the show was going
to go, that it was going to ultimately embrace, you know,
some supernatural elements. We thought that was going to be,
you know, the demand of the X Files and Lenny
was going to completely different universe, which it did, but
(04:56):
it evolved and each season it was like a trip tick.
Each it was a different way of seeing this world.
And so yeah, I would have done things differently something
because I had no idea where the show was going
took that.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I'm curious to know.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I've asked everyone as we worked on the show, like
writers and producers. What was one of the toughest battles
you had facing you had to face while working on
the show was a critics, studio, execs, of the audience.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Maybe well, certainly the studio and the network were frightened
by the show. I don't think they disliked it, but
they were just you know, their job was to deliver
a big audience, and they could see that we were
sort of limiting the size of the audience by our
uncompromising approach to the storytelling. But we felt equally strongly
(05:45):
that we you know, we had to sort of hold
the line on that. And then I think the reason
the show evolved is because we were eager to grow
and not repeat ourselves. So I think there was sort
of this restless creative spirit that kept causing the show
to reinvent itself. And you know, I think internally it
(06:07):
was difficult because we were doing The X Files at
the same time, and we had sort of creative expectations
for ourselves and we were determined not to let ourselves down.
And from the beginning of the first season, you know,
Chris sort of let go the original creative team and
so he and I ended up being, you know, doing
(06:28):
double time on X Files and Millennium that first season,
and then obviously Glenn and Jim came to the rescue
in the second season, and then Chip and Ken in
the third season. So you know, both in terms of
the commercial pressure on us and the creative personnel to
deliver the show, it was never easy. It was always
a battle. But I think, you know, the third season,
(06:50):
we all felt really proud of the show and what
it did become, and we're pushing so hard for that
fourth season that we ultimately didn't get, I think because
the network believed if they put something else in there,
the ratings would grow, which turned out not to be true.
You know, I think while the audience wasn't as big
as we wanted it to be, it turned out that
audience was about as big an audience as you were
(07:12):
ever going to get in that Friday night time slot.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
One thing that I didn't know that you talked about
in a documentary that Chris came to you about possibly
running the second season, which you turned down, which I
thought was kind of interesting because I didn't know that.
But even though you didn't you turned it down isn't
that it had to make you feel good that Chris
trusted you enough to give you the reins of a
show like that on his second baby.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
I guess you can call it.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Yeah. I was really flattered and grateful, But I think, honestly,
I don't think I was ready at that point, and
I certainly wasn't ready to let go The X Files either.
So it was a tough call because I really did
love Millennium, But I think I made the right call speaking.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Of The X Files, and you know, I haven't talked
about this in the past, and a lot of fans
talk about this the movie. I want to believe it's
considered more like a Millennium film to many of us
in the fandom. What are your thoughts about that? It
just comes across to me as soon as I watched it,
I said, this is Millennium. Just dropping Frank and Clay
(08:21):
Scott and you have a Millennium film.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I think there's a lot of truth to that. I
think tonally it feels very much like Millennium, and I
think you know that it's barely supernatural, you know, so
I think it could quite easily have fit into Millennium.
But I think that's where Chris's head in particular was
at at that point in time when we came back
to The X Files. He was more interested in the horror,
(08:48):
psychological terror, and the sort of thematic richness of it.
And I still think, you know, that Billy Connelly character
was so interesting and it's not something that's talked about much, unfortunately,
but I think his character and how he wrestled with
his own sin and evil was really, you know, fascinating
(09:10):
to us at the time. And that's that really is
Millennium Territories to me.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Speaking of The X Files, there's been a big debate
about the season the season seven episode Millennium and The
X Files.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Obviously, some fans hate it, some fans love it.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
What are your thoughts about the show looking back on
it now all these years later, would you have done
something different with Vince Lance has talked to me about it,
Chris has talked to me about it. I'm curious to
get your thoughts about it these days.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Well, we were so upset that Millennium didn't get, you know,
an ending, that we were determined to give it an
ending on The X Files. And I have to be honest,
like we didn't appreciate how difficult that was going to
be because a completely different shows, and we wrestled with
that episode a lot. It was a really hard episode
(10:01):
to figure out, and ultimately where we came down on
it was not where we expected to come down, which
was it was part of the X Files and so
it had to be an X File first. And I
think I could totally get why some Millennium fans would
be frustrated by that episode because it is more an
X Files episode than a Millennium episode. It's an X
Files episode with Frank Black in it. That's that's what
(10:22):
it is. And so you know, in the end, it
didn't end up being the Millennium finale that we wanted
it to be, but I couldn't figure out how else
to do it since it was part of the X Files,
you know, TV series. So I think I think we
did the best we could given the creative constraints we
(10:44):
were under. And I know a lot of X Files
fans who who really liked that episode, but they're bringing
the X Files expectations to it, not Millennium expectations.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Plus you got the big kiss at the end of
the episode, so.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Yes, which was perfect which was perfect New Year's.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Eve kiss, which is every time I talk to someone
about the show a Next File fans particularly, that's what
they remember about the show. They liked Frank being back,
which was nice, but it's the kiss that's the most
important thing about that episode.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Yeah, that was That was a milestone, especially after you know,
teasing it for so long and depriving fans of it
in the in the movie to finally give it and
we really it was a kiss, like we lingered on
and made sure people could see it.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
The darkness of the show is what you've talked about
and what Chris has talked about a lot, how the
show was so dark, and I'm thinking to myself that
show has influenced shows like Criminal Minds and Hannibal and Dexter.
I think Millennium, if it had existed today, would be
a perfect fit for what's going on in the television
landscape today. Would you agree with that on like FX
(11:47):
or Hulu or something like that.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Oh for sure, for sure. But I would say in
terms of the darkness, there's no question about it. And
in terms of the cinematic nature of the show, you know,
I think XBOS and Millennium were both, to my mind,
were both ahead of their time in terms of their
cinematic ambition. But I would say that in terms of
the thematic element of Millennium and the ambition of Millennium,
(12:15):
it still gives all those shows a run for their money,
you know, even today, even twenty five years later, I
think a lot of those shows don't necessarily reach for
the same complexity of a theme and aren't necessarily always
as thought provoking as I think Millennium was. And I
think that's why probably Millennium has had the longevity it's had,
(12:40):
is that it is still it's not just going for
the horror or the scare, or the darkness or the macabre.
It's trying to make you think. It's asking questions that
invite reflection.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Thinking about your current work, are there any elements from
when you worked on Millennium back in the day that
you incorporate into your shows now character traits or themes
or anything like that, because some of your shows. I
love Ransom, which I'm doing to rewatch of right now again,
love that show, and Hunter and shows like that. Are
there any thematic or character traits that you've pulled from
Millennium for these shows.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Well, you know, I was still like a new writer,
you know, on Millennium of still very very early in
my career, and so I think things like you know,
Emma and Frank's relationship, which was distinct from Muldern Skull's relationship.
I think that has stayed with me. I think Frank's
heroism and his own darkness as a character has stayed
(13:53):
with me. But you know, I think both Millennium and
X Files made me the I am, and so I
think I carry them with me in everything I do
in ways that I'm probably not even conscious of. But
if I were to go back and try and analyze
my own work, I'm sure I could find, you know,
explicit lines I could draw from Millennium to the work
(14:16):
I do today, you know, and in places people wouldn't
expect to find it, Like, Okay, maybe you would see it,
you know, in a spot thriller I Hunted, or a
crime drama like Ransom, But I bet it's there in
shows like Metichi too, you know, there's there's elements of it.
It's also like a sort of adult tone to Millennium
(14:38):
and seriousness to the characters that informs my work. So yeah,
I think it's it's all over the place for me.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
You mentioned Emma and Frank, and it's just popped in
my head. I think that was a groundbreaking relationship and
television back then. Clay was talking to me about that,
how proud she is of that that element where there
was no well they won't they sexual with tension kind
of thing. There is just two people who trusted each
other and who'd worked together, and a black female with
an order white gentleman.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
I think that was really groundbreaking back then.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Well, I'm really proud of that, you know, just on
creative terms. And I have to say, you know, there
was no sort of social cultural racial agenda. It was
like we loved Claya and we thought she'd be bringing
the part and and that's why we cast her. And
I'm I'm I'm especially proud of that.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
It was like it was it was done for all
the right reasons, and I think it holds up, you know,
so I'm really pleased with that and Claya, you know,
to my great regret, I worked with her again briefly
on Robbery Homicide Division. But you always imagine you're gonna
get the chance to work together again, and maybe we
still will, but I regret that we haven't yet.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I think one of the things that I appreciate about
this show is the fact that even though X Files
was up here and some considered Millennium the stepsister of
the show, the show still had its own voice, it
still had its own tone, it still had its own
I guess attitude is what I'm looking at, and I
think I really appreciate that and what the writers and
(16:12):
the producers did for the show.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think that's the
one thing that stayed consistent over the three seasons, as
different as they were, is there was this It's not
just darkness. There was a deliberateness about the show, and
it really comes from Lance and Frank Black's character. I
think that really drove the show, and I think, you know,
(16:34):
the writers connected with Frank, and I think that affected
the tone of the show and the view of the show,
and it was it was a distinct thing. I think,
you know, it was obviously influenced by Seven, you know,
from the very beginning, but there's just a there's a
feel about Lendin, like you know instantly that you're watching
(16:58):
that show. If you were changing channels and you hit
a Millennium, it would pop because it's not quite like
anything else.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Speaking of the three distinct seasons, and this again is
another debate in the fandom. Some see that as a
hindrance to the show and one of the reasons why
the show was canceled.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I kind of see it as.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
An interesting thing where you have three see chapters in
a book which I enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
What are your thoughts on that. Do you think it
was a hindrance to the show.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Yeah, No, I don't think it was entrance to the
show at all. I think the show got as big
an audience as it was always ever going to get. Yeah,
And I think it was creatively, really strong and interesting
all three seasons. And I think you know, I think
we talked about this before. You know, what nobody realized
in nineteen ninety nine was that network television was already
(17:45):
in decline, and so I think Fox was chasing those
X Files numbers and that Friday night time slot, and
they kind of rolled the dice that if they got
rid of Millennium, they would improve on it and you know,
recapture the X Files numbers, which they never did. And
they kind of did the same thing you know a
few years later with a Lone Gunman. You know, it
is the exact same thing, thinking, you know, we'll do better,
(18:08):
we'll do better. But if you look back, you know
at the at the the ratings graph of that time slot,
you know, Millennium was the best, the best numbers you
ever got at that on that period. You know, it
never was better than Millennium when it got canceled. So
I think we were more a victim of changing viewership
habits than of of any you know, creative mistakes or
(18:34):
change of direction we may have made in the seasons.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
When the show was canceled in the third season, Chris
has told me he had an idea where he wanted
to go if there was a fourth season, but he
never said exactly what Clay and Lance talked about this
over the years where they wanted to show to go.
Did you have any ideas of like, HM, too bad
I got canceled. I'd like to go in this direction
if you came back to the show.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
No, but you know, I I thought Chip was going
to do the fourth season and I and I think
Chip really did have some ideas what he wanted to do.
So no, I mean, by the third season. It was
not my show in any way at all. I mean,
Chris and I would come in and make our contributions,
but it was really Chip who was, you know, defining
(19:16):
the show. And I was really excited by what he
was doing and was looking forward to, you know, obviously
the actual Millennium being on the show.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Mike, that's one of Michael Parrison. That's one of the
funniest trivia questions you could ask, what show was about
the Millennium that never made it to the Millennium.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah, there's only one.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I guess my final question for you is what
would you say to the fans who still have a
torch for this or a fire for this show and
that's still supported and who's bought our movie and supports
your work because you worked on the show and stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Well, I would say thank you, and we're really humbled
and flattered by your fandom and your support for the
show and it you know, it means everything to you.
I mean, I really put my heart and soul into Millennium,
like like I do all of these shows, and you
do it because you're hoping you're going to reach other people.
(20:11):
You know, you don't just do it for yourself. You
do it because you want other people to be moved
by what you've done. And when people not only watch
the show, but but like it enough to remember it
and honor it and and keep it going, you know
for years, it's incredible. I can't tell you how gratifying
that is. And it's it's what makes it real, you know,
(20:31):
Otherwise it's just a digital file sitting around somewhere. But
the fact that you and I are talking about it
all these years later means that that work was worth something.
You know. You're the one that gives it value, you know,
not me. So I'm incredibly grateful and proud and pleased
and and just so happy that I got the opportunity
(20:54):
to work, you know, with all these other talented people,
you know, starting with Lance and play and you know,
I can go down the list, you know, Megan and
Brittany and Bill Spittrovich and you know, it's Tara Quinn.
It's a long, long list of incredibly talented people. And
behind the camera as well, you know, Mark Freeborn and
(21:15):
John Cassakis and Thomas Wright and all the amazing directors
on the show. So it's a really proud chapter in
my career, and I'm really happy to have a reason
to talk about it again.
After a decade, the time is now, the wave is
becoming title. Join us in the campaign for the return
of the FBI Criminal Profiler, Frank Black and Millennium. This
is the back to Frank Black Millennium group sessions. My friends,
(00:26):
this is who we are.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
First question is it might be kind of an open
ended one, but obviously you know the twenty fifth anniverses
coming up in October.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
And although the show.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Didn't didn't achieve the success of The X Files in
television and you know, the pop culture landscape, I do
think in it's own riot, the series was its own
success and had its own place in the television hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I guess you could say in history. Would you agree
with that?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Yeah, I think. You know, we've talked about this before.
I think the show didn't reach the popularity of The
X Files, but the impact the show had on the
people who saw it was really profound. And I meet
people all the time who say, you know, I like
The X Files. Millennium, Wow, I really loved Millenium because
Millennium was was really uncompromising in its way, and I think, honestly,
(01:26):
I think that's probably why it limited the size of
its audience, particularly in a network television landscape, you know,
there are only so many people who are going to
buy into that vision, and there's a lot of pressure,
especially in the first season, to try to lighten the
vision or or compromise that we resisted, and I think
that's why, you know, you're still talking about it, We're
(01:50):
still talking about twenty five years later. So it was
both you know, what was great about it and also
what kind of probably kept it from being more popular
than it was.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
To tip Johannason and he said he had mentioned how
difficult it was to getting episodes out for that show,
and that it seemed like you were writing a movie
script every week and it was hard to get these
episodes out the door.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Would you agree with that.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Yeah, I think it was very much a movie type
story every week, and and there's a lot of thought into,
you know, the mythology of it, not just the series,
but every episode. So you know, it was really an
ambitious show, and when it worked, I think, you know,
(02:34):
it worked as well as anything else that's been done
for television.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Your very first episode, which is one of my favorite episodes, Weeds,
was the first one you wrote for the series.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Do you remember your inspiration for that episode.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
You know, it was really about fathers and sons and
the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons
and that, you know, I always saw what was interesting
about Millennium, especially in the first season, was the logic
of the serial killers, and the more resonant that logic was,
the more interesting they were, as as as prey for
(03:13):
Frank Black, And in a very different way in Sacrament
I kind of explored the same idea, which was, you know,
not so much the sins of the fathers, but sort
of the gifts of the fathers, if you will, you know,
the gift that Frank had and how that affected Jordan.
But that's an interesting theme to me, just generations and
(03:34):
fathers and sons.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Thinking back on your initial, you know, approach to the
work on the show, Jason asked me this question. Was
there anything that you might have done differently on the
show besides the obvious cohesiveness of linking to three seasons,
Were there any tones or thematic elements you might have
steered differently.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Yeah, I think it's it's one of those shows that
we found as we went along, and that changed dramatically
each of the three seasons. So I certainly had no
idea from the first episode what the show was going
to become. I don't think anybody did. And I think
in the beginning, I mean, I know, I said again,
(04:13):
I've said this to you before. I think that that
first hour is as good or better than anything Chris
ever wrote, which is saying a lot, because Chris is
such an incredible writer. And I remember seeing it in
a in a theater in Los Angeles because Fox so
proud of it that they rented out theaters for the
for the premiere, and just being absolutely blown away by
(04:35):
it as a piece of filmmaking and a piece of television.
But we certainly didn't know where the show was going
to go, that it was going to ultimately embrace, you know,
some supernatural elements. We thought that was going to be,
you know, the demand of the X Files and Lenny
was going to completely different universe, which it did, but
(04:56):
it evolved and each season it was like a trip tick.
Each it was a different way of seeing this world.
And so yeah, I would have done things differently something
because I had no idea where the show was going
took that.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I'm curious to know.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I've asked everyone as we worked on the show, like
writers and producers. What was one of the toughest battles
you had facing you had to face while working on
the show was a critics, studio, execs, of the audience.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Maybe well, certainly the studio and the network were frightened
by the show. I don't think they disliked it, but
they were just you know, their job was to deliver
a big audience, and they could see that we were
sort of limiting the size of the audience by our
uncompromising approach to the storytelling. But we felt equally strongly
(05:45):
that we you know, we had to sort of hold
the line on that. And then I think the reason
the show evolved is because we were eager to grow
and not repeat ourselves. So I think there was sort
of this restless creative spirit that kept causing the show
to reinvent itself. And you know, I think internally it
(06:07):
was difficult because we were doing The X Files at
the same time, and we had sort of creative expectations
for ourselves and we were determined not to let ourselves down.
And from the beginning of the first season, you know,
Chris sort of let go the original creative team and
so he and I ended up being, you know, doing
(06:28):
double time on X Files and Millennium that first season,
and then obviously Glenn and Jim came to the rescue
in the second season, and then Chip and Ken in
the third season. So you know, both in terms of
the commercial pressure on us and the creative personnel to
deliver the show, it was never easy. It was always
a battle. But I think, you know, the third season,
(06:50):
we all felt really proud of the show and what
it did become, and we're pushing so hard for that
fourth season that we ultimately didn't get, I think because
the network believed if they put something else in there,
the ratings would grow, which turned out not to be true.
You know, I think while the audience wasn't as big
as we wanted it to be, it turned out that
audience was about as big an audience as you were
(07:12):
ever going to get in that Friday night time slot.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
One thing that I didn't know that you talked about
in a documentary that Chris came to you about possibly
running the second season, which you turned down, which I
thought was kind of interesting because I didn't know that.
But even though you didn't you turned it down isn't
that it had to make you feel good that Chris
trusted you enough to give you the reins of a
show like that on his second baby.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
I guess you can call it.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Yeah. I was really flattered and grateful, But I think, honestly,
I don't think I was ready at that point, and
I certainly wasn't ready to let go The X Files either.
So it was a tough call because I really did
love Millennium, But I think I made the right call speaking.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Of The X Files, and you know, I haven't talked
about this in the past, and a lot of fans
talk about this the movie. I want to believe it's
considered more like a Millennium film to many of us
in the fandom. What are your thoughts about that? It
just comes across to me as soon as I watched it,
I said, this is Millennium. Just dropping Frank and Clay
(08:21):
Scott and you have a Millennium film.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I think there's a lot of truth to that. I
think tonally it feels very much like Millennium, and I
think you know that it's barely supernatural, you know, so
I think it could quite easily have fit into Millennium.
But I think that's where Chris's head in particular was
at at that point in time when we came back
to The X Files. He was more interested in the horror,
(08:48):
psychological terror, and the sort of thematic richness of it.
And I still think, you know, that Billy Connelly character
was so interesting and it's not something that's talked about much, unfortunately,
but I think his character and how he wrestled with
his own sin and evil was really, you know, fascinating
(09:10):
to us at the time. And that's that really is
Millennium Territories to me.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Speaking of The X Files, there's been a big debate
about the season the season seven episode Millennium and The
X Files.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Obviously, some fans hate it, some fans love it.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
What are your thoughts about the show looking back on
it now all these years later, would you have done
something different with Vince Lance has talked to me about it,
Chris has talked to me about it. I'm curious to
get your thoughts about it these days.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Well, we were so upset that Millennium didn't get, you know,
an ending, that we were determined to give it an
ending on The X Files. And I have to be honest,
like we didn't appreciate how difficult that was going to
be because a completely different shows, and we wrestled with
that episode a lot. It was a really hard episode
(10:01):
to figure out, and ultimately where we came down on
it was not where we expected to come down, which
was it was part of the X Files and so
it had to be an X File first. And I
think I could totally get why some Millennium fans would
be frustrated by that episode because it is more an
X Files episode than a Millennium episode. It's an X
Files episode with Frank Black in it. That's that's what
(10:22):
it is. And so you know, in the end, it
didn't end up being the Millennium finale that we wanted
it to be, but I couldn't figure out how else
to do it since it was part of the X Files,
you know, TV series. So I think I think we
did the best we could given the creative constraints we
(10:44):
were under. And I know a lot of X Files
fans who who really liked that episode, but they're bringing
the X Files expectations to it, not Millennium expectations.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Plus you got the big kiss at the end of
the episode, so.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Yes, which was perfect which was perfect New Year's.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Eve kiss, which is every time I talk to someone
about the show a Next File fans particularly, that's what
they remember about the show. They liked Frank being back,
which was nice, but it's the kiss that's the most
important thing about that episode.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Yeah, that was That was a milestone, especially after you know,
teasing it for so long and depriving fans of it
in the in the movie to finally give it and
we really it was a kiss, like we lingered on
and made sure people could see it.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
The darkness of the show is what you've talked about
and what Chris has talked about a lot, how the
show was so dark, and I'm thinking to myself that
show has influenced shows like Criminal Minds and Hannibal and Dexter.
I think Millennium, if it had existed today, would be
a perfect fit for what's going on in the television
landscape today. Would you agree with that on like FX
(11:47):
or Hulu or something like that.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Oh for sure, for sure. But I would say in
terms of the darkness, there's no question about it. And
in terms of the cinematic nature of the show, you know,
I think XBOS and Millennium were both, to my mind,
were both ahead of their time in terms of their
cinematic ambition. But I would say that in terms of
the thematic element of Millennium and the ambition of Millennium,
(12:15):
it still gives all those shows a run for their money,
you know, even today, even twenty five years later, I
think a lot of those shows don't necessarily reach for
the same complexity of a theme and aren't necessarily always
as thought provoking as I think Millennium was. And I
think that's why probably Millennium has had the longevity it's had,
(12:40):
is that it is still it's not just going for
the horror or the scare, or the darkness or the macabre.
It's trying to make you think. It's asking questions that
invite reflection.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Thinking about your current work, are there any elements from
when you worked on Millennium back in the day that
you incorporate into your shows now character traits or themes
or anything like that, because some of your shows. I
love Ransom, which I'm doing to rewatch of right now again,
love that show, and Hunter and shows like that. Are
there any thematic or character traits that you've pulled from
Millennium for these shows.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Well, you know, I was still like a new writer,
you know, on Millennium of still very very early in
my career, and so I think things like you know,
Emma and Frank's relationship, which was distinct from Muldern Skull's relationship.
I think that has stayed with me. I think Frank's
heroism and his own darkness as a character has stayed
(13:53):
with me. But you know, I think both Millennium and
X Files made me the I am, and so I
think I carry them with me in everything I do
in ways that I'm probably not even conscious of. But
if I were to go back and try and analyze
my own work, I'm sure I could find, you know,
explicit lines I could draw from Millennium to the work
(14:16):
I do today, you know, and in places people wouldn't
expect to find it, Like, Okay, maybe you would see it,
you know, in a spot thriller I Hunted, or a
crime drama like Ransom, But I bet it's there in
shows like Metichi too, you know, there's there's elements of it.
It's also like a sort of adult tone to Millennium
(14:38):
and seriousness to the characters that informs my work. So yeah,
I think it's it's all over the place for me.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
You mentioned Emma and Frank, and it's just popped in
my head. I think that was a groundbreaking relationship and
television back then. Clay was talking to me about that,
how proud she is of that that element where there
was no well they won't they sexual with tension kind
of thing. There is just two people who trusted each
other and who'd worked together, and a black female with
an order white gentleman.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
I think that was really groundbreaking back then.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Well, I'm really proud of that, you know, just on
creative terms. And I have to say, you know, there
was no sort of social cultural racial agenda. It was
like we loved Claya and we thought she'd be bringing
the part and and that's why we cast her. And
I'm I'm I'm especially proud of that.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
It was like it was it was done for all
the right reasons, and I think it holds up, you know,
so I'm really pleased with that and Claya, you know,
to my great regret, I worked with her again briefly
on Robbery Homicide Division. But you always imagine you're gonna
get the chance to work together again, and maybe we
still will, but I regret that we haven't yet.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I think one of the things that I appreciate about
this show is the fact that even though X Files
was up here and some considered Millennium the stepsister of
the show, the show still had its own voice, it
still had its own tone, it still had its own
I guess attitude is what I'm looking at, and I
think I really appreciate that and what the writers and
(16:12):
the producers did for the show.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think that's the
one thing that stayed consistent over the three seasons, as
different as they were, is there was this It's not
just darkness. There was a deliberateness about the show, and
it really comes from Lance and Frank Black's character. I
think that really drove the show, and I think, you know,
(16:34):
the writers connected with Frank, and I think that affected
the tone of the show and the view of the show,
and it was it was a distinct thing. I think,
you know, it was obviously influenced by Seven, you know,
from the very beginning, but there's just a there's a
feel about Lendin, like you know instantly that you're watching
(16:58):
that show. If you were changing channels and you hit
a Millennium, it would pop because it's not quite like
anything else.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Speaking of the three distinct seasons, and this again is
another debate in the fandom. Some see that as a
hindrance to the show and one of the reasons why
the show was canceled.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I kind of see it as.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
An interesting thing where you have three see chapters in
a book which I enjoyed.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
What are your thoughts on that. Do you think it
was a hindrance to the show.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Yeah, No, I don't think it was entrance to the
show at all. I think the show got as big
an audience as it was always ever going to get. Yeah,
And I think it was creatively, really strong and interesting
all three seasons. And I think you know, I think
we talked about this before. You know, what nobody realized
in nineteen ninety nine was that network television was already
(17:45):
in decline, and so I think Fox was chasing those
X Files numbers and that Friday night time slot, and
they kind of rolled the dice that if they got
rid of Millennium, they would improve on it and you know,
recapture the X Files numbers, which they never did. And
they kind of did the same thing you know a
few years later with a Lone Gunman. You know, it
is the exact same thing, thinking, you know, we'll do better,
(18:08):
we'll do better. But if you look back, you know
at the at the the ratings graph of that time slot,
you know, Millennium was the best, the best numbers you
ever got at that on that period. You know, it
never was better than Millennium when it got canceled. So
I think we were more a victim of changing viewership
habits than of of any you know, creative mistakes or
(18:34):
change of direction we may have made in the seasons.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
When the show was canceled in the third season, Chris
has told me he had an idea where he wanted
to go if there was a fourth season, but he
never said exactly what Clay and Lance talked about this
over the years where they wanted to show to go.
Did you have any ideas of like, HM, too bad
I got canceled. I'd like to go in this direction
if you came back to the show.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
No, but you know, I I thought Chip was going
to do the fourth season and I and I think
Chip really did have some ideas what he wanted to do.
So no, I mean, by the third season. It was
not my show in any way at all. I mean,
Chris and I would come in and make our contributions,
but it was really Chip who was, you know, defining
(19:16):
the show. And I was really excited by what he
was doing and was looking forward to, you know, obviously
the actual Millennium being on the show.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Mike, that's one of Michael Parrison. That's one of the
funniest trivia questions you could ask, what show was about
the Millennium that never made it to the Millennium.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah, there's only one.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I guess my final question for you is what
would you say to the fans who still have a
torch for this or a fire for this show and
that's still supported and who's bought our movie and supports
your work because you worked on the show and stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Well, I would say thank you, and we're really humbled
and flattered by your fandom and your support for the
show and it you know, it means everything to you.
I mean, I really put my heart and soul into Millennium,
like like I do all of these shows, and you
do it because you're hoping you're going to reach other people.
(20:11):
You know, you don't just do it for yourself. You
do it because you want other people to be moved
by what you've done. And when people not only watch
the show, but but like it enough to remember it
and honor it and and keep it going, you know
for years, it's incredible. I can't tell you how gratifying
that is. And it's it's what makes it real, you know,
(20:31):
Otherwise it's just a digital file sitting around somewhere. But
the fact that you and I are talking about it
all these years later means that that work was worth something.
You know. You're the one that gives it value, you know,
not me. So I'm incredibly grateful and proud and pleased
and and just so happy that I got the opportunity
(20:54):
to work, you know, with all these other talented people,
you know, starting with Lance and play and you know,
I can go down the list, you know, Megan and
Brittany and Bill Spittrovich and you know, it's Tara Quinn.
It's a long, long list of incredibly talented people. And
behind the camera as well, you know, Mark Freeborn and
(21:15):
John Cassakis and Thomas Wright and all the amazing directors
on the show. So it's a really proud chapter in
my career, and I'm really happy to have a reason
to talk about it again.
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