August 26, 2025 • 54 mins
Philip Goldberg has been studying the world’s spiritual traditions for over 50 years, as a practitioner, teacher, and writer. He has presented at prominent venues and authored numerous books, including: American Veda; The Life of Yogananda; Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times; and the forthcoming Karmic Relief: Harnessing the Laws of Cause and Effect for a Joyful, Meaningful Life. He serves on the board of the Association for Spiritual Integrity, and publishes on his “Practical Spirituality” Substack.
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Please note that all XZBN radio and/or television shows are Copyright © REL-MAR McConnell Meda Company, Niagara, Ontario, Canada – www.rel-mar.com. For more Episodes of this show and all shows produced, broadcasted and syndicated from REL-MAR McConell Media Company and The 'X' Zone Broadcast Network and the 'X' Zone TV Channell, visit www.xzbn.net. For programming, distribution, and syndication inquiries, email programming@xzbn.net.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to Mission Evolution Radio Show with Gwildawaka, bringing together
today's leading experts to uncover ever deepening spiritual truths and
the latest scientific developments in support of the evolution of humankind.
For more information on Mission Evolution Radio with Gildawaka, visit
www dot Mission evolution dot org and now here's the
(00:31):
host of Mission Evolution, Miss Gwildawiaka.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Karma can be a bear at least so we're told,
what if we could break out of karmac loops? We
feel bound to what if the power to do so
has been ours all along? Mission Evolution Radio TV show
is coming to you around the world on the x
On TV channel XTV dot C. With this is Hour
(01:01):
to explore Karma and Freeing ourselves from it is Philip Goldberg.
Philip has been studying the world's spiritual traditions for over
fifty years as a practitioner, teacher, and writer. He's presented
at numerous venues and authored several books, including American Veda,
The Life of Yogananda, Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times and
(01:24):
the Forthcoming Karmic Relief Harnessing the Laws of Cause and
Effect for a Joyful, meaningful Life. He serves on the
Board of Association of Spiritual Integrity and publishes on his
Practical Spirituality substack his website Philip Goldberg dot com. Philip,
thank you so much for joining us on Mission Evolution.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thank you for having me, Gwilda, It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So, Philip, you've been studying the world's traditions for over
fifty years. What drew you to that area study?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
While I was young, and it was the late nineteen sixties,
and I was discontent searching for answers to important questions
that my elders in the institutions of society at that
(02:19):
time didn't answer satisfactorily. So in my search for truth,
I was part of what we then called the counter culture,
and everybody was on a similar quest in those days,
(02:41):
long before anyone dreamed of an Internet or anything like it,
the medium of exchange for ideas was were books, and
so even though I was a student, I managed to
read what I wanted to read instead of what I
(03:04):
was assigned to read for the most part, and in
that context was turned on to books about the Eastern
spiritual traditions, which I had not been exposed to, so
I read about them by prominent Western authors like Altus
(03:28):
Huxley and Alan Watts and others, and then I read
them directly. I read Buddhist sources and the Bugavad Gita
and New Punishads, and it was life transforming for me.
I had no religious upbringing. I thought religion was for fools.
(03:50):
But this was different. This was a kind of approach
to inner transformation and ways of connecting to the large
or cosmos that seemed empirical and practical. Nobody asked me
to believe any nonsense. I found art to believe. It
(04:10):
was all based on experience and proven methodologies, and I
was drawn to it like the proverbial fish to water,
and it's shaped my life ever since.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
So how has the general public's relationship to ancient spiritual
traditions changed since that time?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, I wrote, you mentioned one of my books, America
in Vader. That book chronicles how the spiritual teachings that
were born in India and were maintained over the centuries
found their way to the West, in particular America, going
(04:59):
back a few hundred years. It was a gradual process,
and then it exploded in the nineteen sixties during my
youth and began to permeate the culture in many ways.
That's why I wrote about it. That book came out
(05:20):
fifteen years ago, and it's only more true now. It's
not just the obvious yoga studios on every street corner
and the people doctors and psychotherapists recommending meditation practices that
were born in the East and have, many of which
(05:43):
have been secularized for our intake, but it's also the
way people understand spirituality and how they engage it in
their lives. The fastest growing segment cohort in studies on
(06:03):
American religion over the less I don't know twenty years
or so, has been this category of spiritual but not religious,
people who resist affiliating or labeling themselves in any one way,
but want to be free to explore and bring into
(06:24):
their own inner lives the traditions from other cultures.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
How much watering down and distortion have those traditions experienced
as a result of becoming a little more mainstream a
Western a lot?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And that's inevitable because you know, people at different levels
of development, different levels of understanding, are drawn to these teachings,
and there are people who want to make a buck
in conveying them, and so there's commercial interests in. You
don't lose money by watering things down, and so so
(07:10):
that that happens, that's inevitable. But the other the remarkable
thing is that so much of it is, so much
of the authentic teachings are available, and people, if they
want to, can find their way to it. Take yoga
for example, you know it's it's become synonymous with physical fitness,
(07:32):
and that's a shame because the yoga, the real core
of yoga tradition is spirituality and meditative experience.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And so the physicality of yoga is is it based
or aiming towards being able to purify the physical so
that they can bring the spiritual through?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Thank you very much. That is the original intent. The
side facts, the fringe benefits what you're healthier and more fit,
and those are not to be minimized. But the higher
purpose was as preparation for deeper spiritual practice and purification,
(08:17):
as you said, and people find their way to that
if they're sincere. A secret.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It seems diametrically opposed to the traditional religions of this country,
where we're taught to disassociate from the physical because it's
something bad.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, there's a lot of that in the tradition, but
to be fair, there are elements of that in the
East as well. But the understanding that the body is
the temple of the soul, as we say in the West,
and what Buddha called the vehicle for awakening, is embedded
(08:58):
in the Eastern ti teachings, especially the Yoga tradition, where
care of the body and refinement of the physiology is
part of a well rounded spirituality.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So what do you see as the impact of transmissions
of Eastern philosophy and spiritual practices to the US.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Well? As I said, it's transformed the landscape of spirituality
in America. If you look at the surveys of how
people people's attitudes toward religion and spirituality, you see this
growing trend of want spiritual independence as opposed to being
(09:39):
a member of something. People want to be in charge
of their own spiritual lives. Second, an emphasis on inner
experience as opposed to belief systems. People want to experience
inner peace and expanded mind and your heart and all
(10:01):
the benefits that come from the variety of spiritual practices
that are available. And so spirituality is a means of
personal growth and development has become part of landscape of
a high priority, and the role of dogma and belief
(10:24):
systems has declined a great deal. There's a whole lot
of people in churches and synagogues and mosques who are
there for the experience and for the community and don't
necessarily believe all the doctrines that are being taught.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So which gets us to what is karma?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Well, I just wrote a whole book on that. Well,
the simple answer is, well, the simplest answer is the
word karma means action. It's simple as that. The larger
meaning of karma and the laws of karma are that
every action has consequences, and not just any action, but
(11:13):
every thoughts consequences, and those consequences will eventually reverberate and
affect the person who's performing the action. That is. You know,
we summarize that in the West by saying things like
(11:37):
we reap what we sew and what goes around comes around.
But the crucial thing is nothing stays localized. When you
understand karma, when you understand the universe, even from the
perspective of modern physics, nothing stays local. Everything has an effect.
(11:57):
Sometimes it's obvious if you cut somebody off on the road,
you know, and they react to it. It's sort of
instant karma. You know, you eat the wrong food, you
get a stomach ache, instant karma. These things we understand,
treat someone mean, they'll be you know, something will come
(12:19):
back to you pretty quickly. But there's all the rest
of the things we say and think and do every day.
Everything gets thrown into the pond of karma and interacts
with other things and eventually comes back to us, not
(12:41):
just the bad stuff. Everybody thinks about karma. Like you
said in your introduction, using a polite word, karma is
a bear. It's often less polite, and people think of
karma as, oh, you know, you do something wrong, it's
going to come back to you. But you do something right,
and now we'll come back to you. That part of
(13:03):
karma is also you know, present and should be part
of our calculation. But that's essentially what karma means.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's a pretty good definition. We're going to play with
that on the other side of a station break. But
it is time for that station break. Philip and I
will return very shortly, so don't you go away. This
is Mission Evolution www. Dot Mission evolution dot Org is
the ancient concept of karma relative today with this. Discussing
(13:38):
the nature of karma is Philip Goldberg, the author of
karmak Relief, Harnessing the Laws of Cause and Effect for
a joyful, meaningful Life his website Philip Goldberg dot com. So, Philip,
we were talking about the definition of karma, and as
you were going through it, it has me wondering, how
(13:59):
does karma relate to the laws of nature? Is it
directly related?
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah. In fact, a lot of people translating or presenting
karma to the West will describe it as a law
of nature. You know, the laws of nature as they've
been discovered by physics and biology and chemistry and so forth.
(14:27):
They are called laws of nature because they are orderly, predictable,
they can be understood by our feeble minds. Karma is
a lot more complex. It doesn't boil down to easy
formulas the way you know science communicates. But if you
(14:54):
understand it properly, it is at least analogous to a
law of nature. It's one of the ways the universe operates.
You could say it's it's the way the manifest created
universe operates, and that the laws of science are embedded
(15:14):
in the karmic sort of patterns of the way the
universe is shaped. Every action has a consequence. Well, the
laws of nature a science described them, are sort of
part of that. In physics, there's you know, one of
(15:35):
the laws of physics is every action has an equal
and opposite reaction. People will say, that's exactly what human
actions as defined by karma. How they're defined by karma.
So yes, it's at least analogous. If not, you know,
even if you don't accept that karma is a law
(15:57):
of nature.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So how does the Eastern concept of karma differed from
that held in the West.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Well, we don't really have a concept of karma in
the West. In the Western religious traditions, there are many
attempts to explain why things happen, seemingly mysterious things. You know,
the question of why do good people suffer? Why do
(16:28):
bad people not seem to get punished? This is you know,
very old questions. This is you know, the whole the
Book of Job is built around that one. You know,
that question, and there are many attempts to explain it
in the West. Given the Western religious framework of typically
(16:49):
a a god, the father who is a judge, the
judge of all of our actions and so forth, and
the religion traditions have never been able to explain why
a God that is almighty, all powerful, all knowing, and
all good can tolerate such a mess on a human life,
(17:18):
and so it's not been a satisfactory It gets less
and less satisfactory the traditional religious responses. And that's one
of the reasons why so many people in the West,
not just new age people and naive seekers, but very
sophisticated thinkers are inclined to say karma might explain things better.
(17:44):
The laws of karma. We can't prove them, but they
if they're true, the explanation holds up, it makes more sense.
And so there's an inclination to incorporate karma into Western
understanding of things.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It's like when we're trying to contemplate from the framework
of an all knowing, all loving, all controlling God, and
people are puzzling over Okay, like you just said, why
do bad things happen to good people and good things
happen to bad people? In short, how much does that
(18:26):
have to do with what you mentioned earlier, which is
intriguing that it's not just about what you do or say.
It's about what you think or intend. So what apparently
good people might have in denial actually bad thoughts and intentions.
How much of this has to do with denial.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Well, it could have a lot to do with denial.
And one of the forums denial might take is that
there are consequences to our behavior. So people might get
away with lying or cheating or for aud thinking no
one will ever know, they'll get away with it. But
(19:06):
there's two things to be said about that. One, if
karma is real, it'll come back to you, even if
you seem to be getting away with it at first second.
There are subtle consequences. And one of the ways that
Western thinkers and often Eastern thinkers too to talk about
(19:30):
this is anybody with a conscience who engages in deceit
or lying or cheating will be to some degree burdened
by this. Unless you're a psychopath or a sociopath, there'll
be a part of you that's either feeling a bit
(19:52):
guilty about it or worried that you're going to get caught,
and that worry is a kind consequence, and that can
eat away at you. So there are subtle consequences to
thoughts and actions as well as you know the physical
(20:13):
what occurs on the physical plane.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So can we kind of gauge what kind of karma
we may have been creating in denial by what's coming
back at us that we're not happy with.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
All we can say about that is whatever happens is
the result of our thoughts and actions and words in
the past. That means the good stuff. You know, something
bad happens, we think, why did this happen? To what
did I do? Something good happens, We hardly ever think
(20:51):
of it, but we should. We say, well, I did
something in the past to deserve this. This is a
good thing coming back to me. But the details exactly
what was done in the past. It may not be
one thing. It may not be that, you know, this
(21:11):
thing that just happened to me, the car accident, the
falling in love, whatever it is, is the result of
one thing I did in the past. Now it's much
more complicated than that, and you can't it's impossible. And
the Indian spiritual texts are very clear on this. Don't
(21:33):
waste your time trying to figure it out, you know, like,
what did how did this happen? Why did this happen
in the past. It's much too complicated. Similarly, you do
something in the present or you're about to predicting exactly
how that's going to come back to you in the future.
(21:55):
Our minds are incapable of this. This is way too
complicated for us. But the principle that if you behave well,
good things will happen in the future. If you behave
inappropriately or in an immoral or unethical way, that the
(22:16):
consequences of that will come back, not because somebody is
going to either reward or punish you, but because there's
laws in effect, and so actions will bring to you
something similar, something in that category.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So basically it's just the way life works.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
It's the way life works. But if you are conscious
of it and you accept even the possibility that every
action has consequences, it does change your thinking and the
way you approach the world. Whereas if you dismiss it
and say there's no lawful stuff going on in the verse,
(23:02):
I can get away with anything, well, then there are consequences.
And so my bottom line is always if you don't
it doesn't matter whether you believe in karma or not,
I can't prove it to you. But if you lean
in that direction, it's better to assume karma is real
(23:25):
then to assume it's not. We'll have a better world
if people think there are consequences to their actions.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So you say the term karma is often misused, would
you please explain.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
That, Well, there are many ways that's misused, and one
of them is what I just said to I alluded
to thinking it's only the negative stuff. There's a lot
of pop songs about karma. Taylor Swift has one. You know,
a lot of songs about it, and most of them
(24:00):
are in the you did me wrong. Now Karma is
going to come and get you, you know. But the
good stuff is karma too, and we must understand that
if karma is real, then everything that happens is the
result of the past, and everything going forward is a
result of what we will contribute to the karma balance
(24:23):
sheet at each moment. Another misconception is that or misuse,
is that karma can be Karma sometimes is misinterpreted in
(24:44):
ways that lead to complacency or irresponsible behavior. For example,
something bad happens to somebody. I've heard this myself, people say, oh, well,
it's their karma. It's obviously something they did in the past,
(25:07):
and that gets them the person off the hook by
dismissing somebody else's suffering as well as their karma. So
my response to that is, yes, it's their karma and
your reaction to it is your karma. So if you
(25:27):
are callous and indifferent to somebody suffering, that has consequences. If,
on the other hand, your compassion, you're compassionate and kind
toward the person who's suffering, that will have positive karma consequences.
So that's something you know to be to be on
(25:51):
guard about in this context.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So isn't taking that stance of well, it must just
because of their karma, because they did something to do
serve isn't taking that stance a form of denial the
ergo it will never happen to me.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yes, it can be, and it's often rooted in a misunderstanding,
but it's a cop out and essentially, and you could
say it's a form of denial that the person in
front of you who's suffering, or the person you hear
about in the news, or you get an email about
(26:29):
a friend, it's now your karma that that information came
to you. And how we react to that creates karma
in the future, So every moment is not only a
consequence of the past, it's creating the karma going forward.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Well, it's time for us to take a station break.
On the other side of the break though, I would
really like to talk about karma in the future. Okay,
Philip and I will be right back to continue our discussion.
So you stay right there. This is Mission Evolution www
dot Mission evolution dot org. Are there karma cops? This
(27:14):
is Mission Evolution Mission Evolution dot org. With this discussing
karma law. As Philip Goldberg his website Philip Goldberg dot
com has promised, we've been talking about how the behavior
or actions we've taken in the past creates the karma
that we're living in the present. Can we go back
(27:34):
from the present and shift the karma that we've built
in the past, and or can we go to the
future and figure out what's going to go on and
change our behavior in the present to change the future.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
This sounds like science fiction we're living in in a sense. Yes,
karma is not fatalism determinism. You're not a victim of karma.
This is another misunderstand Karma places responsibility squarely on each
(28:12):
of our shoulders. We're responsible for whatever happened in the past,
or whatever we did in the past leading to this moment,
or whatever's happening to us now. We are also responsible
for how we respond to the situations in the present
and what we do in the next instant and the
(28:32):
next day, in the next month that creates karma in
the future. So can we go back into the past. No,
Can we alter the karma that's coming to us before
(28:53):
it even arrives In a sense, yes, let's look at
it as an analogy. I didn't make this up. This
is something I heard a guru once say, and it's
stuck with me. If you take out a loan, you
borrow money. There are terms and conditions the loan will
(29:18):
come do at a certain date and time. Similarly, if
whatever we do in the each moment is like taking
it's a debt, especially if it's a negative thing we do,
it's a debt that will have to be paid. There's
no contract that says when it's going to come back,
(29:41):
but it will come back. The analogy to a loan
is suppose you have a loan that's coming doe in
a year. What you do in that year from the
time you take out to loan until the time it
comes due will determine the impact that the loan coming
(30:03):
do is going to make to you. So if you
just keep spending all your money and then suddenly the
karma is due or the loan is due, that's going
to be a tough one. You don't have the money
to cover it. If, on the other hand, you behave
very responsibly and save your money, earn more money, then
(30:25):
when the loan comes due, it's not a big deal. Similarly,
we do something negative in at some point in time,
we can then say, oh, that's going to come back
to me and behave better going forward. So then when
something negative comes into our lives, we have the strength
(30:46):
and the capacity and the means, so the impact is
not that great. So we can in a sense affect
the past by behaving better in the present and in
the future. Ely saying, can we look forward to the
future and predict No, but we can behave ethically, behave
(31:07):
kind with kindness, be nice, as my grandmother used to
tell me, and we can expect then good things happening
to us in the future.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So it has the concept of karma ever been proven.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
No, and I don't think it ever will be unless
you know, the physicists surprise us. You know, sometime in
the future. What we can say is proven is and
science is in the forefront. It is the basic karma
(31:47):
couldn't be real if everything were not connected. But science
has been very diligent and demonstrating at this moment in
history that everything is connected. There's no doubt about that.
Scientists will tell you that we don't understand everything in
(32:09):
the universe, but we do know that everything is connected,
and that everything that happens has reverberates endlessly through the universe,
in some places more powerfully, in some places negligibly. But
everything is connected. The next step, I think will be
(32:34):
the proof that everything in thought and feelings is also connected.
That consciousness is a substance, almost like a substance that
is universal, and therefore what we think has consequences, not
(32:57):
just in determining our actions, but thinking negatively about somebody
is going to have an effect on that person having
bad intentions, and that brings us back, you know, whether
science proves it or not. But the nuances of karma
(33:19):
are such that intention matters a great deal, and we
know this intuitively, it's even in the laws. If you
intentionally inflict harm to someone and you're arrested, your punishment
is going to be greater than if you do something
by accident in it involuntarily. The laws of karma like that,
(33:44):
if you do something harmful with bad intent, the consequences
are greater than if you're just careless or if you
inadvertently do something.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Which brings me to my next question. So you know,
now we can all be good and scared because even
if thoughts that go through our head can create negative karma.
And I don't know if anybody it hasn't been driving
down the road been cut off and have some negative
thoughts going through their head, of course, can we take
it away, take it away, take it all?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Well, yeah, you make up for it by thinking positive thoughts.
And you know, one of the key factors to me
in working with the laws of karma and creating a
better karmic future for ourselves is developing a spiritual repertoire
(34:35):
of practices that bring us a measure of inner peace
and contentment, which is what meditative practices, yogic practices, mindfulness practices, prayer,
all this whole repertoire that we have of spiritual practices.
(34:56):
They're meant to change us internally. How are we engage
those on a regular basis. The more favorable our odds
are of having a positive thought, of doing the kind thing,
of being kind nice to somebody, as opposed to angry
(35:19):
or vindictive, because we're more content inside. It's an easy
formula to understand because we've all experienced it. If we're
tired and miserable, we're more likely to lose our tempers,
We're more likely to be selfish or more likely to
be unkind. If we're feeling content inside and happy, we're
(35:42):
far more likely to be compassionate and nice to other people,
even in thought. And so it comes to that. But yes,
but the thing is one of things we want to
avoid is oh I had this negative thought, Oh God,
I'm terrible. It's going to come back and harm because
those are bad thoughts too, right, Whereas oh, I'm human,
(36:06):
I had negative thoughts. I'll try to do better in
the future. That's a kinder a kinder thing to do
to yourself than to you know, feel guilty and shame.
We're human. Let's just accept that humanness.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
So if you know, if we talk about the way
nature works sound an equal opposite sound wave will cancel
out and create silence. So are you saying that if
we are driving down the road and that proverbial truck
cuts us off and we go into a negative place,
if we stop and immediately think kind thoughts, can that
(36:48):
kind of stop and nip it in the bud if
you will?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And that's a very well known Yogic practice, it's also
in Buddhist practice. And you know, I think positively. I mean,
even even cognitive psychologists and self help authors will tell
you that try to shift negative thought patterns into positive ones.
(37:10):
But there are methods for doing that, and we have
to be kind to ourselves. We can't necessarily instantaneously shift.
I mean, if somebody does something nasty to you and
you're angry, trying to shift to oh I love that person,
and your subconscious is going to say or you're full
(37:31):
of it.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
The best I can do is admire the color of
their pickup Okay, yeah, or.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Right, or that poor person must be, you know, very
unhappy to have done that, or just shift to something
else that pleases you, you know, turn on a song
you like, you know, something just get out of the
you know, that wheel of negative thought as soon as
you can shift the mind. And you know that takes practice,
(38:02):
and you know we have to be patient with ourselves,
but it is part of the ways of dealing with karma.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
How much does it have to do with processing? So
if we're living our day to day life and something
triggers us, we're being triggered into pass damage as often
as not. So how important is processing?
Speaker 3 (38:22):
It's important, and so we the more attentive we can
be to how we respond to things. You know, earlier
I said it makes no sense to try to go
back and understand exactly what we did in the past
to cause the present. At the same time, if we're
(38:45):
experiencing the same kind of difficulties over and over again,
then we see a pattern emerge. And then, as any
good psychotherapists would do, like what are you doing to
bring this situation about? You keep repeating it. That's a
(39:08):
way of looking.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Are those considered karmac loops?
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Well, I would call it that, a psychotherapist would call
it something else. But this is where there's a lot
of interaction. You could say, yeah, karmic loop is a
good term for it. You're repeating the same mistakes. One
of the things I'd like about the theory of karma
(39:32):
is it it's an it's an educational model as opposed
to a judicial model. It's not like there's as you
put it, a karmack cops, you know, keeping an eye
on us, like you know, karmic police state. And it's
not like there's a judge who's going to say, Okay,
(39:54):
you get this reward for that, punishment for that. That's
a kind of legalistic way of looking at things that
it's not an accurate way of thinking about karma. Karma
is more of an educational model. You do things, consequences happen,
(40:20):
situations repeat themselves. You now have a chance to pass
the test. Part of karma is whatever happens to us
is there to teach us something in our spiritual growth,
in our evolution, to use the word that's in the
title of your program. As we evolve, we should be
(40:43):
learning and growing, and karma is a way of, you know,
reminding us of our lesson plan. This is your curriculum.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
We're going to have to check into the curriculum on
the other side of a station break. Please stay with us.
Is Philip and I continue to explore the modern day
impact of arma. This is Mission Evolution, Mission evolution dot org.
If we did it in a past life, can we
help be held accountable today? This is Mission Evolution, Mission
(41:12):
evolution dot org. We're continuing our discussion with Philip Goldberg
as website Philip Goldberg dot com. Philip, let's dive into
past lives. I mean, some people believe in if some
people don't.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
I was wondering when you'd get to that.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
The last quarter is a good place. So what where
does the concept of reincarnation interface with that of karma.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I think it's it's kind of indispensable, and it's it's
a place of resistance to many people when it comes
to accepting the laws of karma. But personally, I don't
see any way to uh make the theory of karma
really work if we only have one life, because the
(42:03):
evidence is, as we all have seen, good people, terrible
things can happen to good people, and good people suffer
and die young, and you know, suffer grievous loss and illness,
(42:24):
and a lot of bad people, at least on the surface, thrive.
They have comfortable lives, they live well, they're healthy, they
live long. So if we're confined to this one life,
it's very hard to justify that the belief that everything
that happens has consequences and that whatever happens is the
(42:48):
result of the past. What have we got child do
to you know?
Speaker 2 (42:53):
But have we built up past lives as a way
to substantiate karma And indeed karma may not exist.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Well, let's assume it does. If it does, then one
way of explaining things is the existence of past and
future lives. And that's where the educational model comes in.
We have lessons to learn, we learn, some we don't
learn others. We come back, We matriculate to the next grade.
(43:27):
We come back, we have a new curriculum, and some
of the courses we have to repeat because we didn't
do well on them in the past. So that's with
that that makes karma a very long term proposition, and
(43:48):
it means that, yes, some of what happens in this life.
There's different forms of karma according to the Eastern sages.
I won't go into all of them, but one form
is that which comes from a previous lives that are
going to come do in this life. They're going to
(44:10):
man the effects of those past actions will come in
this life. Then it's up to us in the present
to respond to them. We can't know, despite what some
people will tell you, we can't know. Oh, this is
happening to me now because in you know, the Middle Ages,
(44:30):
I was a monk in this You know I did this,
and I had an affair with a nun. We don't know.
We can't go back. We can't even go back into
our childhoods and understand everything, let alone past lives.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
But which brings me to my next question. Most of
us have no memories of our past lives, and some
of our kar karma is accumulating past lives. How can
we hope to correct it?
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Because we correct everything in the press, react in the
present whereever the causes were in the past. This is
happening now. How I react to it matters. What I
do going forward in this regard matters. That's where the
(45:18):
correcting is done. We can't change the past. It's there.
So one of the things that is important to us
is accepting the present and not laboring too hard over
why is this happening? Why is this happening? What did
I do to deserve this? Right here and now? This
(45:39):
is it. This is a lesson? Planned are you going
to learn the right lessons, make the right changes in
your thinking, in your actions, and your interactions with others
so that the karma in the future changes the details
are not as relevant.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
So what's the best way to deal with difficulties in
this lifetime if there is the result of past karma?
Speaker 3 (46:07):
As I said, by doing the right thing now? And
one of the reactions to that we should get in
the habit of having is instead of being angry about
whatever is happening, instead of endlessly trying to figure it out.
I mean, a certain amount of that is obviously natural
(46:29):
and not to be discounted. But at a certain point
you have to say, Okay, what can I learn from this?
What is the real lesson here? And how can I
do things differently in the future. That's the question. What
(46:49):
can I learn from this? As opposed to why is
this happening?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Well? Why is this happening? Is pretty much a victim stance,
isn't it seems it seems like we kind of like
that place. Okay, why is this happening to me?
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Yeah, that's the tone that becomes victim. Whereas you say, okay,
why is this happening? What kind of things do have
I done in the past to cause this? Now? What
can I learn that that can be a legitimate and
useful thing.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Well, one's taking responsibility and the other one is not. Yes, exactly, Okay,
So it seems like we've been encouraged, probably through guilt
and conditioning from the dogma that we've been exposed to.
We've conditioned to avoid responsibility at all costs, because if
we take responsibility, that seems to be the same as
(47:42):
being guilty of something. How can a person discover that
that's indeed where they're coming from, and how can they
correct that?
Speaker 3 (47:48):
It's one of the lessons everybody learns, whether they believe
in karma or not. At a certain point in our lives,
we have to take responsibility for what happens. I mean,
every child has to learn that, every adolescent has to
learn that. And it's sad to say many a middle
aged and senior has to learn that we're responsible for
(48:15):
our actions. It's as simple as that, and we either
accept that or go through life feeling like a victim
and don't forget. If we don't take responsibility, we also
don't get to give ourselves credit for the good stuff.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Nor can we correct the situation that's creating it in
the first place. If we're in the powerless stance of victim.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
So if everyone were to start to recognize, or at
least a majority of the people in the West, we're
to start to recognize the consequences that are the principles
of karma, how do you think that would change the
landscape of our society.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
You know, I gave a lot of thought to this,
and it's it's tempting to say, oh, if everybody believed
in karma, we'd have such a great world. But belief
in something is not enough. It helps. I think people
(49:15):
who believe in karma start to favor good actions, favor
moral and ethical reactions and behavior in accordance with the
sort of principles we all accept for righteousness and goodness.
(49:40):
And it's true. I mean, I can see in my
own life when I remember, oh, yeah, karma, I'm much
more likely to not take the shortcut with someone, to
be kind, to say the nice thing, to give a
bigger tip in a restaurant. It, I mean, little things
like that, And I think a widespread acceptance of karma
(50:05):
would have a big impact. At the same time, I'm
very aware that every religious tradition, every secular tradition of ethics,
has proper behavior and improper behavior. And we're all raised
in that. The jails are filled with people who went
(50:27):
to church or synagogue every week, and we're taught and
maybe even believed, you know, this is the right way
to behave. But there are forces that make people do
things they know are wrong, and that has to be
attended to as well as just whether we believe in something.
(50:50):
I could see. I've seen people who believe in karma
do bad things, and you say, don't they know why
are they doing this? They talk about karma and they're
taking advantage of people. Why Because there are psychological forces,
physical forces that we also have to attend to.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
So some say that these times herald the end of karma.
What's your take on.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
That karma will end when the universe ends karma? Is
you know, there's no end of karma as long as
and what people mean by that is I think maybe
they mean the extinction of the Earth and all of
(51:37):
the sension beings and the but the universe operates in
accord with the laws of karma, then karma is always
going to exist. As long as there's a created world,
and as long as there are human beings, the human
aspect of karma and the consequences of our actions will
(52:00):
be intact. The other way of looking at it is
in those traditions that talk about karma, they also talk
about advanced states of development of awareness. We call it enlightenment,
(52:22):
we call it liberation, we call it awakening that transcend
the laws of karma. They transcend cause and effect. They
station us in the eternal, in the infinite, which is
beyond karma. So individuals who attain those states and in
(52:46):
a stable, permanent way are said to be beyond karma.
At the same time, as long as they're in bodies,
the bodies are subject to karma because you know, if
it's thirsty, it has to drink, and if it gets
(53:11):
an infection, it's going to you know, have a wound
or whatever. So karma is always going to exist on
that level. But on the level of the person's awareness
and consciousness, there is said to be states beyond karma,
and then the body in action is directed from that
(53:33):
level instead of the level of need and lack and
so forth.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
So that's definitely evolutionary, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
It's evolutionary.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Well that unfortunately, Philip, this has been a wonderful conversation
if thoroughly enjoyed it, and we're out of time. Thank
you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
It's been a great pleasure. Wilder, thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Me my pleasure. Our guest this hour has been Philip Goldberg,
the author of Karmic Relief, Harnessing the laws of Cause
and Effect for a joyful, meaningful life. To find out
more about Philip where you can find his books and
all he has to offer, visit his website Philip Goldberg
dot com. This has been Mission Evolution with Gwildowiyeka. For
(54:19):
more information or to enjoy past archived episodes, visit our
website www dot Mission evolution dot org. But please be
sure to join us again right here on the x
On TV channel x z t V dot c A,
where this mission will continue bringing information, resources and support
(54:39):
to our rapidly evolving world.
Welcome to Mission Evolution Radio Show with Gwildawaka, bringing together
today's leading experts to uncover ever deepening spiritual truths and
the latest scientific developments in support of the evolution of humankind.
For more information on Mission Evolution Radio with Gildawaka, visit
www dot Mission evolution dot org and now here's the
(00:31):
host of Mission Evolution, Miss Gwildawiaka.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Karma can be a bear at least so we're told,
what if we could break out of karmac loops? We
feel bound to what if the power to do so
has been ours all along? Mission Evolution Radio TV show
is coming to you around the world on the x
On TV channel XTV dot C. With this is Hour
(01:01):
to explore Karma and Freeing ourselves from it is Philip Goldberg.
Philip has been studying the world's spiritual traditions for over
fifty years as a practitioner, teacher, and writer. He's presented
at numerous venues and authored several books, including American Veda,
The Life of Yogananda, Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times and
(01:24):
the Forthcoming Karmic Relief Harnessing the Laws of Cause and
Effect for a Joyful, meaningful Life. He serves on the
Board of Association of Spiritual Integrity and publishes on his
Practical Spirituality substack his website Philip Goldberg dot com. Philip,
thank you so much for joining us on Mission Evolution.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Thank you for having me, Gwilda, It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So, Philip, you've been studying the world's traditions for over
fifty years. What drew you to that area study?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
While I was young, and it was the late nineteen sixties,
and I was discontent searching for answers to important questions
that my elders in the institutions of society at that
(02:19):
time didn't answer satisfactorily. So in my search for truth,
I was part of what we then called the counter culture,
and everybody was on a similar quest in those days,
(02:41):
long before anyone dreamed of an Internet or anything like it,
the medium of exchange for ideas was were books, and
so even though I was a student, I managed to
read what I wanted to read instead of what I
(03:04):
was assigned to read for the most part, and in
that context was turned on to books about the Eastern
spiritual traditions, which I had not been exposed to, so
I read about them by prominent Western authors like Altus
(03:28):
Huxley and Alan Watts and others, and then I read
them directly. I read Buddhist sources and the Bugavad Gita
and New Punishads, and it was life transforming for me.
I had no religious upbringing. I thought religion was for fools.
(03:50):
But this was different. This was a kind of approach
to inner transformation and ways of connecting to the large
or cosmos that seemed empirical and practical. Nobody asked me
to believe any nonsense. I found art to believe. It
(04:10):
was all based on experience and proven methodologies, and I
was drawn to it like the proverbial fish to water,
and it's shaped my life ever since.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
So how has the general public's relationship to ancient spiritual
traditions changed since that time?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, I wrote, you mentioned one of my books, America
in Vader. That book chronicles how the spiritual teachings that
were born in India and were maintained over the centuries
found their way to the West, in particular America, going
(04:59):
back a few hundred years. It was a gradual process,
and then it exploded in the nineteen sixties during my
youth and began to permeate the culture in many ways.
That's why I wrote about it. That book came out
(05:20):
fifteen years ago, and it's only more true now. It's
not just the obvious yoga studios on every street corner
and the people doctors and psychotherapists recommending meditation practices that
were born in the East and have, many of which
(05:43):
have been secularized for our intake, but it's also the
way people understand spirituality and how they engage it in
their lives. The fastest growing segment cohort in studies on
(06:03):
American religion over the less I don't know twenty years
or so, has been this category of spiritual but not religious,
people who resist affiliating or labeling themselves in any one way,
but want to be free to explore and bring into
(06:24):
their own inner lives the traditions from other cultures.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
How much watering down and distortion have those traditions experienced
as a result of becoming a little more mainstream a
Western a lot?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And that's inevitable because you know, people at different levels
of development, different levels of understanding, are drawn to these teachings,
and there are people who want to make a buck
in conveying them, and so there's commercial interests in. You
don't lose money by watering things down, and so so
(07:10):
that that happens, that's inevitable. But the other the remarkable
thing is that so much of it is, so much
of the authentic teachings are available, and people, if they
want to, can find their way to it. Take yoga
for example, you know it's it's become synonymous with physical fitness,
(07:32):
and that's a shame because the yoga, the real core
of yoga tradition is spirituality and meditative experience.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And so the physicality of yoga is is it based
or aiming towards being able to purify the physical so
that they can bring the spiritual through?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Thank you very much. That is the original intent. The
side facts, the fringe benefits what you're healthier and more fit,
and those are not to be minimized. But the higher
purpose was as preparation for deeper spiritual practice and purification,
(08:17):
as you said, and people find their way to that
if they're sincere. A secret.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It seems diametrically opposed to the traditional religions of this country,
where we're taught to disassociate from the physical because it's
something bad.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, there's a lot of that in the tradition, but
to be fair, there are elements of that in the
East as well. But the understanding that the body is
the temple of the soul, as we say in the West,
and what Buddha called the vehicle for awakening, is embedded
(08:58):
in the Eastern ti teachings, especially the Yoga tradition, where
care of the body and refinement of the physiology is
part of a well rounded spirituality.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So what do you see as the impact of transmissions
of Eastern philosophy and spiritual practices to the US.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Well? As I said, it's transformed the landscape of spirituality
in America. If you look at the surveys of how
people people's attitudes toward religion and spirituality, you see this
growing trend of want spiritual independence as opposed to being
(09:39):
a member of something. People want to be in charge
of their own spiritual lives. Second, an emphasis on inner
experience as opposed to belief systems. People want to experience
inner peace and expanded mind and your heart and all
(10:01):
the benefits that come from the variety of spiritual practices
that are available. And so spirituality is a means of
personal growth and development has become part of landscape of
a high priority, and the role of dogma and belief
(10:24):
systems has declined a great deal. There's a whole lot
of people in churches and synagogues and mosques who are
there for the experience and for the community and don't
necessarily believe all the doctrines that are being taught.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So which gets us to what is karma?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Well, I just wrote a whole book on that. Well,
the simple answer is, well, the simplest answer is the
word karma means action. It's simple as that. The larger
meaning of karma and the laws of karma are that
every action has consequences, and not just any action, but
(11:13):
every thoughts consequences, and those consequences will eventually reverberate and
affect the person who's performing the action. That is. You know,
we summarize that in the West by saying things like
(11:37):
we reap what we sew and what goes around comes around.
But the crucial thing is nothing stays localized. When you
understand karma, when you understand the universe, even from the
perspective of modern physics, nothing stays local. Everything has an effect.
(11:57):
Sometimes it's obvious if you cut somebody off on the road,
you know, and they react to it. It's sort of
instant karma. You know, you eat the wrong food, you
get a stomach ache, instant karma. These things we understand,
treat someone mean, they'll be you know, something will come
(12:19):
back to you pretty quickly. But there's all the rest
of the things we say and think and do every day.
Everything gets thrown into the pond of karma and interacts
with other things and eventually comes back to us, not
(12:41):
just the bad stuff. Everybody thinks about karma. Like you
said in your introduction, using a polite word, karma is
a bear. It's often less polite, and people think of
karma as, oh, you know, you do something wrong, it's
going to come back to you. But you do something right,
and now we'll come back to you. That part of
(13:03):
karma is also you know, present and should be part
of our calculation. But that's essentially what karma means.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's a pretty good definition. We're going to play with
that on the other side of a station break. But
it is time for that station break. Philip and I
will return very shortly, so don't you go away. This
is Mission Evolution www. Dot Mission evolution dot Org is
the ancient concept of karma relative today with this. Discussing
(13:38):
the nature of karma is Philip Goldberg, the author of
karmak Relief, Harnessing the Laws of Cause and Effect for
a joyful, meaningful Life his website Philip Goldberg dot com. So, Philip,
we were talking about the definition of karma, and as
you were going through it, it has me wondering, how
(13:59):
does karma relate to the laws of nature? Is it
directly related?
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah. In fact, a lot of people translating or presenting
karma to the West will describe it as a law
of nature. You know, the laws of nature as they've
been discovered by physics and biology and chemistry and so forth.
(14:27):
They are called laws of nature because they are orderly, predictable,
they can be understood by our feeble minds. Karma is
a lot more complex. It doesn't boil down to easy
formulas the way you know science communicates. But if you
(14:54):
understand it properly, it is at least analogous to a
law of nature. It's one of the ways the universe operates.
You could say it's it's the way the manifest created
universe operates, and that the laws of science are embedded
(15:14):
in the karmic sort of patterns of the way the
universe is shaped. Every action has a consequence. Well, the
laws of nature a science described them, are sort of
part of that. In physics, there's you know, one of
(15:35):
the laws of physics is every action has an equal
and opposite reaction. People will say, that's exactly what human
actions as defined by karma. How they're defined by karma.
So yes, it's at least analogous. If not, you know,
even if you don't accept that karma is a law
(15:57):
of nature.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So how does the Eastern concept of karma differed from
that held in the West.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Well, we don't really have a concept of karma in
the West. In the Western religious traditions, there are many
attempts to explain why things happen, seemingly mysterious things. You know,
the question of why do good people suffer? Why do
(16:28):
bad people not seem to get punished? This is you know,
very old questions. This is you know, the whole the
Book of Job is built around that one. You know,
that question, and there are many attempts to explain it
in the West. Given the Western religious framework of typically
(16:49):
a a god, the father who is a judge, the
judge of all of our actions and so forth, and
the religion traditions have never been able to explain why
a God that is almighty, all powerful, all knowing, and
all good can tolerate such a mess on a human life,
(17:18):
and so it's not been a satisfactory It gets less
and less satisfactory the traditional religious responses. And that's one
of the reasons why so many people in the West,
not just new age people and naive seekers, but very
sophisticated thinkers are inclined to say karma might explain things better.
(17:44):
The laws of karma. We can't prove them, but they
if they're true, the explanation holds up, it makes more sense.
And so there's an inclination to incorporate karma into Western
understanding of things.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It's like when we're trying to contemplate from the framework
of an all knowing, all loving, all controlling God, and
people are puzzling over Okay, like you just said, why
do bad things happen to good people and good things
happen to bad people? In short, how much does that
(18:26):
have to do with what you mentioned earlier, which is
intriguing that it's not just about what you do or say.
It's about what you think or intend. So what apparently
good people might have in denial actually bad thoughts and intentions.
How much of this has to do with denial.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Well, it could have a lot to do with denial.
And one of the forums denial might take is that
there are consequences to our behavior. So people might get
away with lying or cheating or for aud thinking no
one will ever know, they'll get away with it. But
(19:06):
there's two things to be said about that. One, if
karma is real, it'll come back to you, even if
you seem to be getting away with it at first second.
There are subtle consequences. And one of the ways that
Western thinkers and often Eastern thinkers too to talk about
(19:30):
this is anybody with a conscience who engages in deceit
or lying or cheating will be to some degree burdened
by this. Unless you're a psychopath or a sociopath, there'll
be a part of you that's either feeling a bit
(19:52):
guilty about it or worried that you're going to get caught,
and that worry is a kind consequence, and that can
eat away at you. So there are subtle consequences to
thoughts and actions as well as you know the physical
(20:13):
what occurs on the physical plane.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So can we kind of gauge what kind of karma
we may have been creating in denial by what's coming
back at us that we're not happy with.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
All we can say about that is whatever happens is
the result of our thoughts and actions and words in
the past. That means the good stuff. You know, something
bad happens, we think, why did this happen? To what
did I do? Something good happens, We hardly ever think
(20:51):
of it, but we should. We say, well, I did
something in the past to deserve this. This is a
good thing coming back to me. But the details exactly
what was done in the past. It may not be
one thing. It may not be that, you know, this
(21:11):
thing that just happened to me, the car accident, the
falling in love, whatever it is, is the result of
one thing I did in the past. Now it's much
more complicated than that, and you can't it's impossible. And
the Indian spiritual texts are very clear on this. Don't
(21:33):
waste your time trying to figure it out, you know, like,
what did how did this happen? Why did this happen
in the past. It's much too complicated. Similarly, you do
something in the present or you're about to predicting exactly
how that's going to come back to you in the future.
(21:55):
Our minds are incapable of this. This is way too
complicated for us. But the principle that if you behave well,
good things will happen in the future. If you behave
inappropriately or in an immoral or unethical way, that the
(22:16):
consequences of that will come back, not because somebody is
going to either reward or punish you, but because there's
laws in effect, and so actions will bring to you
something similar, something in that category.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So basically it's just the way life works.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
It's the way life works. But if you are conscious
of it and you accept even the possibility that every
action has consequences, it does change your thinking and the
way you approach the world. Whereas if you dismiss it
and say there's no lawful stuff going on in the verse,
(23:02):
I can get away with anything, well, then there are consequences.
And so my bottom line is always if you don't
it doesn't matter whether you believe in karma or not,
I can't prove it to you. But if you lean
in that direction, it's better to assume karma is real
(23:25):
then to assume it's not. We'll have a better world
if people think there are consequences to their actions.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So you say the term karma is often misused, would
you please explain.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
That, Well, there are many ways that's misused, and one
of them is what I just said to I alluded
to thinking it's only the negative stuff. There's a lot
of pop songs about karma. Taylor Swift has one. You know,
a lot of songs about it, and most of them
(24:00):
are in the you did me wrong. Now Karma is
going to come and get you, you know. But the
good stuff is karma too, and we must understand that
if karma is real, then everything that happens is the
result of the past, and everything going forward is a
result of what we will contribute to the karma balance
(24:23):
sheet at each moment. Another misconception is that or misuse,
is that karma can be Karma sometimes is misinterpreted in
(24:44):
ways that lead to complacency or irresponsible behavior. For example,
something bad happens to somebody. I've heard this myself, people say, oh, well,
it's their karma. It's obviously something they did in the past,
(25:07):
and that gets them the person off the hook by
dismissing somebody else's suffering as well as their karma. So
my response to that is, yes, it's their karma and
your reaction to it is your karma. So if you
(25:27):
are callous and indifferent to somebody suffering, that has consequences. If,
on the other hand, your compassion, you're compassionate and kind
toward the person who's suffering, that will have positive karma consequences.
So that's something you know to be to be on
(25:51):
guard about in this context.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So isn't taking that stance of well, it must just
because of their karma, because they did something to do
serve isn't taking that stance a form of denial the
ergo it will never happen to me.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yes, it can be, and it's often rooted in a misunderstanding,
but it's a cop out and essentially, and you could
say it's a form of denial that the person in
front of you who's suffering, or the person you hear
about in the news, or you get an email about
(26:29):
a friend, it's now your karma that that information came
to you. And how we react to that creates karma
in the future, So every moment is not only a
consequence of the past, it's creating the karma going forward.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Well, it's time for us to take a station break.
On the other side of the break though, I would
really like to talk about karma in the future. Okay,
Philip and I will be right back to continue our discussion.
So you stay right there. This is Mission Evolution www
dot Mission evolution dot org. Are there karma cops? This
(27:14):
is Mission Evolution Mission Evolution dot org. With this discussing
karma law. As Philip Goldberg his website Philip Goldberg dot
com has promised, we've been talking about how the behavior
or actions we've taken in the past creates the karma
that we're living in the present. Can we go back
(27:34):
from the present and shift the karma that we've built
in the past, and or can we go to the
future and figure out what's going to go on and
change our behavior in the present to change the future.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
This sounds like science fiction we're living in in a sense. Yes,
karma is not fatalism determinism. You're not a victim of karma.
This is another misunderstand Karma places responsibility squarely on each
(28:12):
of our shoulders. We're responsible for whatever happened in the past,
or whatever we did in the past leading to this moment,
or whatever's happening to us now. We are also responsible
for how we respond to the situations in the present
and what we do in the next instant and the
(28:32):
next day, in the next month that creates karma in
the future. So can we go back into the past. No,
Can we alter the karma that's coming to us before
(28:53):
it even arrives In a sense, yes, let's look at
it as an analogy. I didn't make this up. This
is something I heard a guru once say, and it's
stuck with me. If you take out a loan, you
borrow money. There are terms and conditions the loan will
(29:18):
come do at a certain date and time. Similarly, if
whatever we do in the each moment is like taking
it's a debt, especially if it's a negative thing we do,
it's a debt that will have to be paid. There's
no contract that says when it's going to come back,
(29:41):
but it will come back. The analogy to a loan
is suppose you have a loan that's coming doe in
a year. What you do in that year from the
time you take out to loan until the time it
comes due will determine the impact that the loan coming
(30:03):
do is going to make to you. So if you
just keep spending all your money and then suddenly the
karma is due or the loan is due, that's going
to be a tough one. You don't have the money
to cover it. If, on the other hand, you behave
very responsibly and save your money, earn more money, then
(30:25):
when the loan comes due, it's not a big deal. Similarly,
we do something negative in at some point in time,
we can then say, oh, that's going to come back
to me and behave better going forward. So then when
something negative comes into our lives, we have the strength
(30:46):
and the capacity and the means, so the impact is
not that great. So we can in a sense affect
the past by behaving better in the present and in
the future. Ely saying, can we look forward to the
future and predict No, but we can behave ethically, behave
(31:07):
kind with kindness, be nice, as my grandmother used to
tell me, and we can expect then good things happening
to us in the future.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So it has the concept of karma ever been proven.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
No, and I don't think it ever will be unless
you know, the physicists surprise us. You know, sometime in
the future. What we can say is proven is and
science is in the forefront. It is the basic karma
(31:47):
couldn't be real if everything were not connected. But science
has been very diligent and demonstrating at this moment in
history that everything is connected. There's no doubt about that.
Scientists will tell you that we don't understand everything in
(32:09):
the universe, but we do know that everything is connected,
and that everything that happens has reverberates endlessly through the universe,
in some places more powerfully, in some places negligibly. But
everything is connected. The next step, I think will be
(32:34):
the proof that everything in thought and feelings is also connected.
That consciousness is a substance, almost like a substance that
is universal, and therefore what we think has consequences, not
(32:57):
just in determining our actions, but thinking negatively about somebody
is going to have an effect on that person having
bad intentions, and that brings us back, you know, whether
science proves it or not. But the nuances of karma
(33:19):
are such that intention matters a great deal, and we
know this intuitively, it's even in the laws. If you
intentionally inflict harm to someone and you're arrested, your punishment
is going to be greater than if you do something
by accident in it involuntarily. The laws of karma like that,
(33:44):
if you do something harmful with bad intent, the consequences
are greater than if you're just careless or if you
inadvertently do something.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Which brings me to my next question. So you know,
now we can all be good and scared because even
if thoughts that go through our head can create negative karma.
And I don't know if anybody it hasn't been driving
down the road been cut off and have some negative
thoughts going through their head, of course, can we take
it away, take it away, take it all?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Well, yeah, you make up for it by thinking positive thoughts.
And you know, one of the key factors to me
in working with the laws of karma and creating a
better karmic future for ourselves is developing a spiritual repertoire
(34:35):
of practices that bring us a measure of inner peace
and contentment, which is what meditative practices, yogic practices, mindfulness practices, prayer,
all this whole repertoire that we have of spiritual practices.
(34:56):
They're meant to change us internally. How are we engage
those on a regular basis. The more favorable our odds
are of having a positive thought, of doing the kind thing,
of being kind nice to somebody, as opposed to angry
(35:19):
or vindictive, because we're more content inside. It's an easy
formula to understand because we've all experienced it. If we're
tired and miserable, we're more likely to lose our tempers,
We're more likely to be selfish or more likely to
be unkind. If we're feeling content inside and happy, we're
(35:42):
far more likely to be compassionate and nice to other people,
even in thought. And so it comes to that. But yes,
but the thing is one of things we want to
avoid is oh I had this negative thought, Oh God,
I'm terrible. It's going to come back and harm because
those are bad thoughts too, right, Whereas oh, I'm human,
(36:06):
I had negative thoughts. I'll try to do better in
the future. That's a kinder a kinder thing to do
to yourself than to you know, feel guilty and shame.
We're human. Let's just accept that humanness.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
So if you know, if we talk about the way
nature works sound an equal opposite sound wave will cancel
out and create silence. So are you saying that if
we are driving down the road and that proverbial truck
cuts us off and we go into a negative place,
if we stop and immediately think kind thoughts, can that
(36:48):
kind of stop and nip it in the bud if
you will?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And that's a very well known Yogic practice, it's also
in Buddhist practice. And you know, I think positively. I mean,
even even cognitive psychologists and self help authors will tell
you that try to shift negative thought patterns into positive ones.
(37:10):
But there are methods for doing that, and we have
to be kind to ourselves. We can't necessarily instantaneously shift.
I mean, if somebody does something nasty to you and
you're angry, trying to shift to oh I love that person,
and your subconscious is going to say or you're full
(37:31):
of it.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
The best I can do is admire the color of
their pickup Okay, yeah, or.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Right, or that poor person must be, you know, very
unhappy to have done that, or just shift to something
else that pleases you, you know, turn on a song
you like, you know, something just get out of the
you know, that wheel of negative thought as soon as
you can shift the mind. And you know that takes practice,
(38:02):
and you know we have to be patient with ourselves,
but it is part of the ways of dealing with karma.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
How much does it have to do with processing? So
if we're living our day to day life and something
triggers us, we're being triggered into pass damage as often
as not. So how important is processing?
Speaker 3 (38:22):
It's important, and so we the more attentive we can
be to how we respond to things. You know, earlier
I said it makes no sense to try to go
back and understand exactly what we did in the past
to cause the present. At the same time, if we're
(38:45):
experiencing the same kind of difficulties over and over again,
then we see a pattern emerge. And then, as any
good psychotherapists would do, like what are you doing to
bring this situation about? You keep repeating it. That's a
(39:08):
way of looking.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Are those considered karmac loops?
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Well, I would call it that, a psychotherapist would call
it something else. But this is where there's a lot
of interaction. You could say, yeah, karmic loop is a
good term for it. You're repeating the same mistakes. One
of the things I'd like about the theory of karma
(39:32):
is it it's an it's an educational model as opposed
to a judicial model. It's not like there's as you
put it, a karmack cops, you know, keeping an eye
on us, like you know, karmic police state. And it's
not like there's a judge who's going to say, Okay,
(39:54):
you get this reward for that, punishment for that. That's
a kind of legalistic way of looking at things that
it's not an accurate way of thinking about karma. Karma
is more of an educational model. You do things, consequences happen,
(40:20):
situations repeat themselves. You now have a chance to pass
the test. Part of karma is whatever happens to us
is there to teach us something in our spiritual growth,
in our evolution, to use the word that's in the
title of your program. As we evolve, we should be
(40:43):
learning and growing, and karma is a way of, you know,
reminding us of our lesson plan. This is your curriculum.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
We're going to have to check into the curriculum on
the other side of a station break. Please stay with us.
Is Philip and I continue to explore the modern day
impact of arma. This is Mission Evolution, Mission evolution dot org.
If we did it in a past life, can we
help be held accountable today? This is Mission Evolution, Mission
(41:12):
evolution dot org. We're continuing our discussion with Philip Goldberg
as website Philip Goldberg dot com. Philip, let's dive into
past lives. I mean, some people believe in if some
people don't.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
I was wondering when you'd get to that.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
The last quarter is a good place. So what where
does the concept of reincarnation interface with that of karma.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I think it's it's kind of indispensable, and it's it's
a place of resistance to many people when it comes
to accepting the laws of karma. But personally, I don't
see any way to uh make the theory of karma
really work if we only have one life, because the
(42:03):
evidence is, as we all have seen, good people, terrible
things can happen to good people, and good people suffer
and die young, and you know, suffer grievous loss and illness,
(42:24):
and a lot of bad people, at least on the surface, thrive.
They have comfortable lives, they live well, they're healthy, they
live long. So if we're confined to this one life,
it's very hard to justify that the belief that everything
that happens has consequences and that whatever happens is the
(42:48):
result of the past. What have we got child do
to you know?
Speaker 2 (42:53):
But have we built up past lives as a way
to substantiate karma And indeed karma may not exist.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Well, let's assume it does. If it does, then one
way of explaining things is the existence of past and
future lives. And that's where the educational model comes in.
We have lessons to learn, we learn, some we don't
learn others. We come back, We matriculate to the next grade.
(43:27):
We come back, we have a new curriculum, and some
of the courses we have to repeat because we didn't
do well on them in the past. So that's with
that that makes karma a very long term proposition, and
(43:48):
it means that, yes, some of what happens in this life.
There's different forms of karma according to the Eastern sages.
I won't go into all of them, but one form
is that which comes from a previous lives that are
going to come do in this life. They're going to
(44:10):
man the effects of those past actions will come in
this life. Then it's up to us in the present
to respond to them. We can't know, despite what some
people will tell you, we can't know. Oh, this is
happening to me now because in you know, the Middle Ages,
(44:30):
I was a monk in this You know I did this,
and I had an affair with a nun. We don't know.
We can't go back. We can't even go back into
our childhoods and understand everything, let alone past lives.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
But which brings me to my next question. Most of
us have no memories of our past lives, and some
of our kar karma is accumulating past lives. How can
we hope to correct it?
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Because we correct everything in the press, react in the
present whereever the causes were in the past. This is
happening now. How I react to it matters. What I
do going forward in this regard matters. That's where the
(45:18):
correcting is done. We can't change the past. It's there.
So one of the things that is important to us
is accepting the present and not laboring too hard over
why is this happening? Why is this happening? What did
I do to deserve this? Right here and now? This
(45:39):
is it. This is a lesson? Planned are you going
to learn the right lessons, make the right changes in
your thinking, in your actions, and your interactions with others
so that the karma in the future changes the details
are not as relevant.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
So what's the best way to deal with difficulties in
this lifetime if there is the result of past karma?
Speaker 3 (46:07):
As I said, by doing the right thing now? And
one of the reactions to that we should get in
the habit of having is instead of being angry about
whatever is happening, instead of endlessly trying to figure it out.
I mean, a certain amount of that is obviously natural
(46:29):
and not to be discounted. But at a certain point
you have to say, Okay, what can I learn from this?
What is the real lesson here? And how can I
do things differently in the future. That's the question. What
(46:49):
can I learn from this? As opposed to why is
this happening?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Well? Why is this happening? Is pretty much a victim stance,
isn't it seems it seems like we kind of like
that place. Okay, why is this happening to me?
Speaker 3 (47:06):
Yeah, that's the tone that becomes victim. Whereas you say, okay,
why is this happening? What kind of things do have
I done in the past to cause this? Now? What
can I learn that that can be a legitimate and
useful thing.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Well, one's taking responsibility and the other one is not. Yes, exactly, Okay,
So it seems like we've been encouraged, probably through guilt
and conditioning from the dogma that we've been exposed to.
We've conditioned to avoid responsibility at all costs, because if
we take responsibility, that seems to be the same as
(47:42):
being guilty of something. How can a person discover that
that's indeed where they're coming from, and how can they
correct that?
Speaker 3 (47:48):
It's one of the lessons everybody learns, whether they believe
in karma or not. At a certain point in our lives,
we have to take responsibility for what happens. I mean,
every child has to learn that, every adolescent has to
learn that. And it's sad to say many a middle
aged and senior has to learn that we're responsible for
(48:15):
our actions. It's as simple as that, and we either
accept that or go through life feeling like a victim
and don't forget. If we don't take responsibility, we also
don't get to give ourselves credit for the good stuff.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Nor can we correct the situation that's creating it in
the first place. If we're in the powerless stance of victim.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
So if everyone were to start to recognize, or at
least a majority of the people in the West, we're
to start to recognize the consequences that are the principles
of karma, how do you think that would change the
landscape of our society.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
You know, I gave a lot of thought to this,
and it's it's tempting to say, oh, if everybody believed
in karma, we'd have such a great world. But belief
in something is not enough. It helps. I think people
(49:15):
who believe in karma start to favor good actions, favor
moral and ethical reactions and behavior in accordance with the
sort of principles we all accept for righteousness and goodness.
(49:40):
And it's true. I mean, I can see in my
own life when I remember, oh, yeah, karma, I'm much
more likely to not take the shortcut with someone, to
be kind, to say the nice thing, to give a
bigger tip in a restaurant. It, I mean, little things
like that, And I think a widespread acceptance of karma
(50:05):
would have a big impact. At the same time, I'm
very aware that every religious tradition, every secular tradition of ethics,
has proper behavior and improper behavior. And we're all raised
in that. The jails are filled with people who went
(50:27):
to church or synagogue every week, and we're taught and
maybe even believed, you know, this is the right way
to behave. But there are forces that make people do
things they know are wrong, and that has to be
attended to as well as just whether we believe in something.
(50:50):
I could see. I've seen people who believe in karma
do bad things, and you say, don't they know why
are they doing this? They talk about karma and they're
taking advantage of people. Why Because there are psychological forces,
physical forces that we also have to attend to.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
So some say that these times herald the end of karma.
What's your take on.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
That karma will end when the universe ends karma? Is
you know, there's no end of karma as long as
and what people mean by that is I think maybe
they mean the extinction of the Earth and all of
(51:37):
the sension beings and the but the universe operates in
accord with the laws of karma, then karma is always
going to exist. As long as there's a created world,
and as long as there are human beings, the human
aspect of karma and the consequences of our actions will
(52:00):
be intact. The other way of looking at it is
in those traditions that talk about karma, they also talk
about advanced states of development of awareness. We call it enlightenment,
(52:22):
we call it liberation, we call it awakening that transcend
the laws of karma. They transcend cause and effect. They
station us in the eternal, in the infinite, which is
beyond karma. So individuals who attain those states and in
(52:46):
a stable, permanent way are said to be beyond karma.
At the same time, as long as they're in bodies,
the bodies are subject to karma because you know, if
it's thirsty, it has to drink, and if it gets
(53:11):
an infection, it's going to you know, have a wound
or whatever. So karma is always going to exist on
that level. But on the level of the person's awareness
and consciousness, there is said to be states beyond karma,
and then the body in action is directed from that
(53:33):
level instead of the level of need and lack and
so forth.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
So that's definitely evolutionary, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
It's evolutionary.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Well that unfortunately, Philip, this has been a wonderful conversation
if thoroughly enjoyed it, and we're out of time. Thank
you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
It's been a great pleasure. Wilder, thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Me my pleasure. Our guest this hour has been Philip Goldberg,
the author of Karmic Relief, Harnessing the laws of Cause
and Effect for a joyful, meaningful life. To find out
more about Philip where you can find his books and
all he has to offer, visit his website Philip Goldberg
dot com. This has been Mission Evolution with Gwildowiyeka. For
(54:19):
more information or to enjoy past archived episodes, visit our
website www dot Mission evolution dot org. But please be
sure to join us again right here on the x
On TV channel x z t V dot c A,
where this mission will continue bringing information, resources and support
(54:39):
to our rapidly evolving world.
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