November 3, 2025 • 76 mins
John Edward Mack (October 4, 1929 – September 27, 2004) was an American psychiatrist, writer, and professor of psychiatry. He served as the head of the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School from 1977 to 2004. In 1977, Mack won the Pulitzer Prize for his book A Prince of Our Disorder on T. E. Lawrence.
Mack's clinical expertise was in child psychology, adolescent psychology, and the psychology of religion. He was also known as a leading researcher on the psychology of teenage suicide and drug addiction, and he later became a researcher in the psychology of alien abduction experiences.
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Mack's clinical expertise was in child psychology, adolescent psychology, and the psychology of religion. He was also known as a leading researcher on the psychology of teenage suicide and drug addiction, and he later became a researcher in the psychology of alien abduction experiences.
Help us buy a camera:
https://ko-fi.com/monsterfuzz
Support the pod:
www.patreon.com/monsterfuzz
Check out our merch:
https://monster-fuzz.creator-spring.com
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/monster-fuzz--4349429/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
A crypt and this is a script. I wanted to
quit against my enemies. Yeah you see, you wanted to
say and then learn how to raise you. But I
forget you from the wild.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello everyone, what is up?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I am raight, I am aiming.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It is Monster Fuzz coming live.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
For us. Yeah right now.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's live from Wexford.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, live from Wexford from us. But for you it's
not this pre recorded but for us, this is live
right now, is live for us.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
The good news for our listeners is we don't do
any editing, so it is don't.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Say that, lad got all upsessed, got all.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Side, I'm talking about audio editing.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh no, well he got sad. He got said. First
of all, I don't think he's ever listened to the
podcast before. He said, I used to like monster phows.
But then they said they use AI for their notes.
They said on one episode we had used it. Generally speaking,
we don't use it. But obviously you're an avid listener,
so you know that. And the other part is he said,
he said, also they don't fact check. Have you ever
(01:16):
listened to this fact checking?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Josanel brother, If you fact checked any cryptoso logical content,
you'd have no podcast. Let's let's go fact check Sasquatch
chronicles there.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm not going to fact check.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Let's let's fact check that. I no, no, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I don't mean actual fact check. Yeah no, I don't
mean what way this is?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Then? Is not genuine check? The people who are there
check properly fact check all of them stories.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Look, people, people are entitled to their opinion, but it's wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Get a fucking grip, bitch. Hey, I is here to
stay brother and get bummed by the robot all for lords.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Jeremy Corbell, the open challenge between you and Rob is
still there.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Do you fancy a bit of celebrity box? And yeah,
he's a black belt, and so I think maybe so
we'll have.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
To get if your boxing. It has to be as
long as it like was he like jujitsu. Lads just
lie on their back like they're waiting to get road.
We're there in ourselves. So a lot of people started,
I know this is these are lads.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
You call it.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
You're looking to fight Bob Lazer. You let George knap
off respect for journalistic George? Is anyone else going to
get it?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Sasquatch himself, I'm doing what's his name, Donning? And I
am West West in a T B one.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, I'll be there for I wouldn't mind doing Tornado
two boys.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah. I think that's not fair, but I think.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Statistically improbable that the case will break on power would
power babs be true? It?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
But we'll see, we'll see. Hope everyone still well, Hope
you're good and your day is go crack. Hopefully you're
high on gabba and enjoying life.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I know I am.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, that's the way it is Todayman, what are we
talking about?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
We are talking about John E. Mac?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Who say is anything to Mac eleven?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
John? Who's Mac? Matt? That the razor?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And there's a rapper?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Oh, I thought it was like Gillette Mac three. Maybe
I didn't know if they were on eleven. I don't
shave very often. I'd like to grow.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
He's from a long line of rappers that are named
after machine guns or guns Mac Mac eleven Tech nine,
little Oozy.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Vert Hold forty five. Would he be a would he
be a fellow Desert MC Desert Eagle? Would he be
another lad?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Probably a rapper called them four carbine or something for carabine.
Probably would they shoot a lot they would, I'd say,
so lottle loozy vert.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
What's the is a vertical? It was, what's the vert?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I don't know new rappers.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
He's the lad who's taking benadre and just looks like
a school desk with all his tattoos.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Like yeah, and multicolored hair.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And I do like the way that these lads do
be just drinking kalpal and like drawn garbage on their
face and they're just like yeah, like it is kind
of the most sort of nihilistic. I don't give a fuck.
Attitude to life is drink kalapal and draw on your
own face. Sorry, when you just step back for a
(04:12):
second and just think about you're saying, drink kalapal, take
downers and draw on your own face permanently.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, Grime said that that is pretty good tattoo. Apparently,
what's your face tattoo? That looks stupid. It looks like
a birth mark. It's like a kind of a red
ring that kind of goes around her eye and its
just like something looks like she's battered or something like,
you know, Grime, looks like she's come.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Out with Yeah. I wonder what they talk about.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
They're not together. So he did.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
He just like, I've yef them or what right? It
isn't type of someone I'd like you to carry my child.
And she was like, fuck off, nerd and then he
was like your band from using Google or whatever the
fu want X anymore? He didn't, Actually, you better not
go on X anymore of Google.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Man.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, Google sabs on Internet from the.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Pretty lame grimes is.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, but it does go to show you those lads
who are real smart and all are still if the
smartest brain gaba are so easily corrupted by fucking gas
information on Twitter. That's my young gabba, you know. I
mean we're all high young gabba, right, lads, Yo gabba Gabba.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Before we get into this episode about John Mack, we're
gonna remind everyone we are on Petreon over there. You
ad three episodes, you'll get exclusive episodes, you'll get access
to our discord and probably other stuff. You also compare
for the air if you like, which is a great,
great pledge. It's an emotional pledge and it means that
really you're like for the next year, I don't care
(05:58):
what I got back at anyway, that's exactly what you.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And that's much romantitude we have. We don't care.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It's romantic.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It is a romantic I tried to do some like
sort of you know, Gregorian chance music there in the
background to give it a sense of veritas.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Now it is. It's romantic. It's emotional, especial saying, and
all of our passions are appreciated. You will also get
a shout out on articy many fuzzes if they have
any crypto encounters, spooky stories, anything really about anything.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
We're going to be talking today about the science of
Alian abductions. Not really, but we are looking at it
from a scientist's point of view. I guess you could
say and be curious, you know, if anyone does have
any interesting abduction stories or maybe those weird dreams that
people think could be related to abductions. This story, Robert,
(06:55):
that these listeners can send I nearly ran ahead there
by mistake. Send them to Monsters podcast at gmail dot com.
We'll read him out on Mini fuzz. But this story,
rob it's very interesting in that this is a highly
credentialed psychiatrist.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So the first part of the episode is really just
talking about his life, his background and kind of how
we got into this, and then the second part is
looking a bit more at some of the specifics of
the stories he came across. So there's a little small
few bits and pieces. I tried. He has a book
(07:29):
called Abductions, I Believe, and I tried to listen to
some of it on the Spotify and I did listen
to some of it as well, but I haven't really
gotten through enough of it yet. I was trying to
listen to other one of the UFOs of God as well.
But it's tough work. It's good, like it is good,
but nothing wrong with it. It's just you kind of
(07:52):
want to just get into the meat of it and
hear the stories. So like if you consider if you're
listening to podcasts or something like something like the likes
of radio, your rentals say, or someone will call in,
they'll have a story about a spooky encounter they had,
and there's some nice production behind it. There's some some
music and some atmosphere. It's nice to listen to, gets
you kind of in the mood for it, whereas with
(08:14):
an audiobook it's a bit sterile in how it's it's
it's presented. So sometimes if you've just written through ow
and then I did this and blah blah. It can
be tricky to really enjoy sometimes I think listen to.
I think something like this is better to actually read
rather than to listen to. That said, I I did
listen to Louisando's book Imminent, which I thought worked very well.
(08:36):
And I listened to Skinwalker Ranch as well, George Knapp
and actually an Irish an Irish fella, I can't even
remember his name off my head. Liam Gallagher. No, that's Oasis,
fucking she Eyes Wolf. I think it was Gallaher. It
probably wasn't, I hope. Let me just check.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I want to say.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Anyway, what I was trying to say is I listened
to a bit of this book. It's interesting. It's worth
checking out. I think it might be one that's better
to read rather than listen to. We're going to go
through it all as we always do. We're going to
tell you all the things, and you are going to
find out what you think in the end. What I'm
going to do, I hope.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
You'll act checked it, because if you didn't, I'm not
going to read it. Well.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I'll tell you one thing that I didn't do well,
that's fact check it right, Okay, do you have been
thinking about what the intro? I We'll give it a
go there.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, you can look up Lam Gallagher there on his Wikipedia.
John Edward Mack October fourth, nineteen twenty nine to September
twenty seven to two thousand and four life was an
American psychiatrist, a writer, and a professor of psychiatry. He
served as the head of the Department of Psychiatry and
Harvard Medical School from nineteen seventy seven to two thousand
(09:50):
and four. Seventy seven, Mac won the Pulitzer Prize for
his book A Prince of Our Disorder on TV. Lawrence
Mac's clinical expertise was in child psychology, adolescent psychology, and
the psychology of religion. He was also known as a
leading researcher on the psychology of teenage suicide and drug addiction,
(10:12):
and he later became hi on Gabaman and he later
became a researcher in the psychology of alien abduction experiences.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
It wasn't Liam Gallaher, it was Colin Kellerher. You can
see those names are somewhat similar. Yeah, so he like
he's he's pretty well credentialed. Mac. We'll see as we
go into this story later. He's one of the only
Harvard professors that's basically investigated outside of inappropriate behavior. So
(10:44):
basically they're investigating what he's doing and kind of going,
don't be doing alien induction shit, all right, and we'll
get into that later. Yeah, it's an interesting in the story.
So the life of Mac mac turn up then and
then I saw and then he torok me out of
(11:05):
bed ship. We're up here in the sky, oh god,
and going down. My lord the lad you told me
you would not promise last year out of this episode,
and you know what's going on after that? I got
(11:26):
five Come on.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Come on, tell us about this one of the Mac.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, he was born in New York City. He was
born in New York. His father was a historian, Edward Clarence.
He was a professor, and his mother Eleanor Liedman Mack.
She died actually why he was an infant, so he
was he didn't really know where at all, devon one
(11:58):
of eleven. H it's cool of like we just laughed
so wantonly at our own jokes that maybe five people
just a little last never to be mine again. Did
you hear? I was signing bombs for the I d
there the other day.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, that's Dramon. He's regratuate, which is why.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I great Jewish man, another great Jew, he'd be top
five actually Jews Roman know he's Polish people.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
People just don't Polish.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Fucking amount of Polish Polish shoes. Polanski probably is one
to be fair problematic Jews. There is who's the director?
So there's Polanski. What's your man's name? You know his name?
He does all the.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Movies problematic Jews?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
You know, geez, what are we going?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
The lad went out with this fucking stepped on.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, Woody Allen, that's it.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
He's a bit of a balleck.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Who else a BB Nenya who arguably a bad Jewish?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Uh? Was he? Yeah? I think he was a Jew. Brother,
you're onto that.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I think BB definitely is.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I don't know about him, but Roman plans he was
definitely Roman. Yeah, probably he is. Yeah, he is Jewish. Yeah,
the Jewish gentiles. But he raised the Catholic apparently something
like that.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, and you know, so what what came which which
which was the non spider Jewish bidder the Catholic bit
which part drove it?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well? Yeah, we know that one Yeah, we're off.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
To a good start anyway. Coffee anyway. Sure. After his
mother died, his father married the economist Ruth P. Mack,
through which he had a half sister, Mary lee Ingbar,
a pioneer of computer analysis who became a professor at
Dartmouth College and University of Massachusetts Medical School. So this
is all to say that Mac basically his family are
(14:03):
quite educated people.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I'm not just putting in what his family do for
the crack. They're educated people, and it's supposed to make you,
the listener, recognize that he's not a crack pot who
knows alien abductions or class. Your probe ma, and you
told me that you love me, you're probe math. So
as John grew up, his father would read the Bible
(14:28):
to him and his sister, but interestingly he would read
it as a work of culture rather than a kind
of a scripture. So it's more about culture and literature
as opposed to a belief system.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
He graduates from Horace Man Lincoln School in nineteen forty
seven and Phi Beta Kappa from Oberlin in nineteen fifty one,
and he receives his medical doctorate degree come Lauder, which
is meant to be good, So he gets that from
Harvard Medical comeloud to me, you said that you would
(15:03):
not come so out, so he does that. In nineteen
fifty five, Max subsequently interns at Massachusetts General Hospital and
he trains as a psychiatrist at the Massachusetts Mental Health Center. Now,
just to show you how cool he is as well,
class In nineteen fifty nine, he joins the United States
Air Force, serving as a use. He serves as a
(15:27):
medic in Japan, and he rises to the rank of captain.
So he's a brave character as well. Nineteen sixty one,
he returns from military service in Japan, continuing at the
Massachusetts Mental Health Center and Boston Psychoanalytic Society and Institute,
receiving certification in Child and Adult Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy. Nineteen
(15:47):
sixty four, he returns to Harvard Medical School and he
becomes a full professor in nineteen seventy two, Class ninety.
By nineteen seventy seven, excuse me, he's become the chairman
of the Executive Committee Committee of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School,
and he occupies this position until his death in two
thousand and four. So he's published over one hundred and
(16:10):
fifty articles and eleven books in his career as department
head at Harvard Medical School. He worked primarily in the
field of child and adolescent psychology. He worked on treating
suicidal patients, and he published a lot of research on
heroin addiction as well. Now, the dominant theme of his
life's work at Harvard has been the exploration of how
(16:30):
one's perception of the world affects one's relationship. He addresses
the issue of worldview on the individual level, and his
early clinical explorations of dreams, nightmares, and teen suicide In
A Prince of Our Disorder his biographical study of the
life of British officer T. Lawrence, and he actually wins
(16:51):
the Pulitzer Prize for this in nineteen seventy seven. So again,
this isn't just some sort of a crackpot fellow who
decides he's going to get into the ali stuff in
you know, I don't know when, maybe it's becoming popular
or whatever. He's highly credentialed. He there's there's stuff in
here as well. I didn't put it in the notes
(17:11):
because I thought it was maybe just a bit too born.
But there's a lot of stuff about the Cold War
and him contributing to sort of lessening tensions. And he
was not an advocate, but he was a spokesperson to
try to de escalate basically nuclear arms and stuff like that.
So and you can see as well when it said
that he's released eleven books, it's not like he's released
(17:35):
eleven books that are all about aliens robin people. It's
proper psychoanalytic work.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Oh okay, well, let's find out a little bit more
about the alien stuff. In the early nineteen nineties, Mac
commands to the decaut plus psychological study of two hundred
men and women who reported recurrent alien encounter experiences. Such
encounters have been limited, had some limited attention from academic
figures or Leo Sprinkle what a name, perhaps being the
(18:03):
earliest in the sixties, Mac however, remains probably the most esteem.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Sprinkle did that in the sixties, so he had looked
into this stuff in the sixties.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Leo Sprinkle, right, So mister Sprinkles, Mac however, remains probably
the most esteemed academic to have studied the subject. He
initially suspected that such persons were suffering from mental illness,
but when no obvious pathologies were present. His interest was
piqued following encouragement from longtime friend Thomas Kuhne, who predicted
(18:34):
that the subject might be controversial, but urged Mac to
collect data and ignore prevailing materialists, duellists, and either or analysis.
Mac again concerted study and interviews. Many of those he
interviewed reported that their encounters had affected the way they
regarded the world, including producing a heightened sense of spirituality
(18:55):
and environmental concern, which, yeah, we would say, like NDA
can do with that.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, and we see it a lot with people who
say they've had encounters with aliens or whatever. There's a thing,
a recurrent theme which is basically stop destroying the planet.
And again I don't think they're in these notes, but
he the aerial school in Zimbabwe where the children alsow
the craft, so he would have investigated that quite a
(19:22):
bit as well. It's yeah, it's it's interesting like that,
the that recurrent thing about like stop sucking the planet
up basically.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Then you kind of also wondered, like, well, why are
the aliens just taking a random lad and be like
planets and bits, and like what's what's he gonna do?
Why wouldn't they take like Trump.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Or like here yeah, or if they're not, or if
they're not, if they're not abducted and the person is
manifest and why are the manifest? And and and like
why is the change in the reworld? Or like what what?
What does it? Watch? The purpose of it? You know
what I mean? Well, but then like people are finding
(20:02):
that way dreams can change your worldview, you know, any
experiences like that can can really leave last.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
The worldview for me at least, always tends to change
gradually over time, you know what I mean. Like I
don't tend to hear a piece of new information and
just immediately go oh, yeah that. But if you track
yourself over time, you sort of you see how you
slowly change. Or you might come across a new idea
and maybe it implements partially into your life, and then
(20:30):
as you get older, that's kind of morphed and warped
and cocooned a little bit as well.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, well I'm thinking of even like you know, dreams
or abductions might be more of a spiritual thing, and
that spiritual thing then ties into your worldview in terms
of what you can see.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Well, what is funny is, as we read through this,
he actually comes up to quite a similar hypothesis you
have in that he kind of we'll get into it
for sure, but he basically he's going like, well, I
can't fully like, I can't validate if these people are
getting abducted by extraterrestrial entities. But there is something that's
(21:07):
where he lands. There's something going on here. He doesn't
say exactly what it is. We've talked before about potential
like forces of nature that could account for strange metaphysical
beings being seen or ghouls and all the rest of it,
but it's actually a part of nature. We just don't
understand it. And I think he lands on something relatively similar.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, could be. I had a really fucking mad dream
recently and I was like, oh Jesus, what the fuck
was that? Maybe kind of thing for a second, anyone
who listens to the podcast regular and I was like,
my grand that passed recently and I had this fucking
dream was really weird. And like his surviving wife, my grant,
(21:51):
she has like dementia and stuff like that. That's pretty bad.
But in the dream, I was out with the two
like shopping as I would have done quite a bit,
and I was but we were abroad. We were in
like fucking Japan, I think actually my mother land. And
we were going around and like they were kind of
say as they were maybear or two ago or whatever,
(22:14):
and we lost my granda in a dream. We couldn't
find him. Me and me granny were going around and
she was kind of like threatening, so where is he?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Where is he?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Trying to find him and this and that and other,
and I think people might have been looking for him
or whatever, and we're in this like shopping center kind
of you know how dreams are, like you know, you
blink and a different place, but then you blink and
you're in a different room. So like I blinked and
I was in their conservatory right and no one was
in there, and my granddad walked in and he was
(22:49):
in really good like physical he was kind of like
kind of like he was maybe five or six years
ago where he was like decent physical shape and everything.
And but the feelings from the dreams still persist where
we were trying to like find him, and he sits
down and he's like he has his paper, like he
was just to sit there reading his paper. And he
sat there, he's like where's where's Marin like, where's she
(23:10):
looking for me? Tellor, I'm fine, Like, TELLR, I'm okay,
everything's okay, I'm fine. And I was like yeah, okay,
and he was kind of laughing and he had his
paper like he was like, oh yeah, it's all going.
And then I woke up.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I was like, fucking hell, did you think it was
some sort.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Of like really emotional like I was like, yeah, fucking wreck,
because it's kind of a nice thing.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
It was lovely, especially if you think that you know,
you're saying your your nan, yeah she's and you know,
if there is some sort of connection to some place
that you probably have an awful lot of I even
have memories of your granddad the paper, so I'd say
you have a lot. And that was probably a time
maybe when maybe that's like one of the happiers of
(23:51):
his life or whatever.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, we'd be just sitting there shooting the ship in
the cantarbatry and it was strange. It fucking fucked with me,
but yeah, it was. It was nice. But it was
like it was like almost paranormal to where I was
like it almost felt like it was kind of like
do you believe in this or you don't believe in it. Yeah,
it was almost felt like it was one of those things.
It was like pick your poison, because like maybe once
(24:13):
or twice in my life, if I had a dream
like that where it was like something, and it usually
was after something someone passed, I think I had another
wrong about my auntie. But so then you ask yourself.
We're talking about wardview and stuff like that and things
like that, like those are two experiences that I've had.
They're not abductions, but they are potentially experiences that might
(24:33):
change your view of how things work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
and how you understand.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
How many people you're approaching it probably in a similar
way to the way I would, And that's we're not
totally skeptical, we're not totally body going. That's possible that it's,
you know, this nice thing where he's kind of saying, hey,
everything is good, but don't worry about it. And it's
also possible that your brain is just kind of throwing
up this this projection projection exactly to help you. Yeah,
(25:00):
but what I mean, I mean, in a sense, both
things are so, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
And if they are, then why and why do that happen?
You know, it's very interesting. But yeah, theyd left America.
It was fucking this is this is fucking spooky. But yeah,
So to get back to return of the MAC. So
many of those of the interview we talked about that part.
(25:29):
MAC was somewhat more guarded in his investigations and interpretations
of the abduction phenomenon than were earlier researchers. Literature professor
Terry Madison writes that on balance, Mac does present as
fair minded an account as has been encounter to date,
at least as these abduction narratives goal. In a nineteen
(25:52):
ninety four interview, Jeffrey misch Love stated that Max seemed
inclined to take these abduction reports of faith value. Mac replied,
saying face value. I wouldn't say I take them seriously.
I don't have a way to account for them, which
is fair.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I mean, like this is the thing we referenced, what ales,
like you have all these people sending stuff in and
you're talking about fact checking and all, like, you can't,
like you can't. You have to take people at face value,
and well not a face value. You have to I
(26:29):
suppose if you're doing like so what or even what
tim is doing It's like you kind of have to
do You have to you have to give them the
respect that they deserve for their story and presume the
best from them. Yeah, which is the right way to
do it if you're trying to give it the respected desires.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
You think about this as well. This guy is a psychiatrist,
so he's coming at this from the angle of expecting
to find mental illness underlying, and he's not finding that. Yeah,
And that's why I think this is so interesting because
again we went over as could credentials for exactly this purpose.
It's to show you that he's not a crackpot, he's
(27:08):
not a maniac. He's obviously quite wealthy as well with
the ayatoma, but he's he's ahead of the Harvard Medical
like he You would presume that you're not going to
put all that up for grabs and then go down
this other way where you go, maybe I'll make money
doing this. He's always he's already making good money. It
(27:29):
must be so when you're trying to think of the motivation,
it would seem that a genuine curiosity and coming at
it from the perspective of a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst and
also then trying to find trends. And again we get
into it a bit more as we go on, but
it's a I think it's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
And that's probably why as well that like maybe critics
were struggling to properly grasp a critique of him, because yeah,
he has a politicer prise, he's accredited professional who has
a long and well established body of work.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
You've got to remember as well in the nineteen nineties
like that you were made fun of for UFO stuff.
We saw that with the Phoenix lights and that when
they dressed up as the alien, all this sort of
stuff like files. Sure. Yeah, even it's only starting to
change nowadays with the UAP and Congress and all the
(28:23):
rest of it. And even that is finding a lot
of a lot of blocks when people are trying to
come forward and you have to go into the skiff
to do X, Y and Z, lots of stuff that's
still classified. So yeah, it's it's at the time you
can understand why people were skeptical, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah. So in a nineteen ninety six interview with pbsc Stad,
there are aspects of this which I believe are we
are justified and taken quite literally that is, UFOs are
in fact observed filmed on camera at the same time
that people are having their reduction experiences. It's both literally
physically happening at the same time, I'm to a degree,
and it's also some kind of psychological spiritual experience occurring
(29:05):
and originating perhaps in another dimension.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So think about that. If someone is saying that in
nineteen ninety six, the year before final comes out supporting year,
you know, it's it's like it's just at that time,
we're talking thirty years ago, Like you're being called a
quackpot for that.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Like well, like anyone that reports like a kind of
an experience a quack pot that was like a crackpot together,
any one of the reports like a kind of profound
experience like that, you do have to kind of give
them a fair shake and kind of look at it.
Like and again that was myself when I had that
weird dream like last week, I was like, I should
(29:46):
probably sit down and like think about this fromant and
like try and grasp it and give myself a bit
of time to actually go like what the fuck was that?
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Like, you know, I just sit down and meditate on
it a bit, like yeah, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
There, like just to think about it and go like, okay,
is it a feeling type of dream? Is it a
you know because someone that said maybe years ago, is
that And I think we've kind of talked about in
the podcast before. I don't know where the idea comes from,
but someone was saying that, like different people that you
see in your dreams represent what are to you. Yeah,
(30:22):
well what you view I might view them, and as
I don't know the cost of the podcast, so maybe
I might view em and as like someone that I
laugh with, So like if I'm having a humor stream
or something, you represent that part of me. But I
don't necessarily I don't know whether I agree with that
now no sense at the time, but I kind of
as I as I get older, Like I heard that
(30:44):
when I was like Eddie, and now I'm like, I
don't know about the.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Other part as well, when people say things like so
your your teeth phoning out in the dreams, money, all
that sort of stuff. But like it's possible that even
though these are archetypes and you're kind of getting into
that young and culture like the collective unconscious, but it's
possible that somethings might mean different things. Here's one for you. Right,
(31:07):
So you had that dream about your grandfather, which on
the face of it would seem to have quite a
straightforward symbolism if it was just a dream, in that
it's being told everything's okay, I'm okay, don't worry about it,
she's looking for me. Everything's fine, which is a very
nice thing. It's very straightforward symbolism as well. Crypt crypt
(31:38):
I had a dream a few months ago and it
stuck with me because it felt very vivid. So I
had a dream that I woke up in bed and
I was covered in blood and there was basically like
a small shark just on the podcast, but I could
feel the slickness of the blood and I couldn't so
much feel the pain, but the shark just kept eating me,
(32:00):
and I was like, this is fucking stupid. Like and
from a symbolic point of view, I'm sure the shark
is maybe representative of something. I'm not sure what it
was representedive of, and it's eating me, so you assume
that that's taken away some of your your free will
or whatever. So it could be anything. It could be
I could have been having Maybe me and Powell were
having a fight that week something or maybe my job
(32:21):
or maybe something who knows, But the symbolism isn't as
straightforward and as honest. That's what your dream was. But
our brains are quite similar, so you would expect that
they would have a similar process to create this stuff.
So why is it then that you get something that's
(32:42):
very nice and I would say probably as you said,
does help you, you know, with with this thing, and
it has a nice kind of a wholesome feeling to it,
Whereas I have this thing that's sort of symbolic of
something that I don't know what it is and is
a bizarre way to represent to me. Because surely, if
I was having to say that was having worries about
(33:03):
my job, if I always have a dream to make
me feel better, surely it would be like my boss
or something. You're doing a good job, It's okay, don't
worry about this. Everything is going to be fine. So
why so, it's just interesting that these mechanisms are from
the same thing one the end result is much different
versus the thing I had it. Now, I've had dreams
like you have had with that as well, But why
(33:24):
are they manifesting so differently? It's it's worth considering, and
I don't know what the answer is.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, well like your your mind caused I suppose of
when you're dreaming, you have experiences where people that have
passed appear. You're like, okay, well is that some is
there some kind of way to communicate with some kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Soul or a spirit links between?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So yeah, something like that happening. Sleep is the cause
of death, as.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
They say, and isn't it? Isn't it the finey iel gland,
which they say just goes bananas with d emt when
you're crossing over into that other place, and that's pretty
active when you're dreaming as well, So it's there's possibly
the same mechanism or something there is happening.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, it was wild.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
It's a nice dream though. It's a really nice dream.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah. It was funny because like when I had it
and I went up to my granda next day, like
I almost couldn't tell her because over dementia. Yeah, and
like she just forgets things anyway, And you're kind of like,
but even in a way, I haven't that dream of
him saying that, You're kind of like why you like,
like because as you said, it was like why are
you looking for me? Tell them I'm a right, Like,
(34:36):
they don't need to be looking for me or worrying
about me. Yeah, yeah, so, and that's the kind of
thing with me. Granted, should be going over and going
over the same things like. So it was nice, it
was good. It was a good one. But yeah, to
get back to return have the mac ah lot. Yeah,
he said, I would never say yes, but there are
aliens taking people. But I would say there is compelling,
(34:58):
powerful phenomenon her that I can't account for in any
other way. It's mysterious yet I can't know what it is.
But it seems to me that invites a deeper further inquiry,
which yeah, it does. Mac noted that there was worldwide
history of visionary experiences, especially in pre industrial societies. One
example is the vision quest common to some Native American cultures,
(35:21):
one fairly recent in Western culture, notes Mac have such
visionary events being interpreted as aberrations or as mental illness.
Max suggested that abduction accounts might best be considered as
part of this larger tradition of visionary encounters. His interest
in the spiritual or transformational aspects of people's alien encounters
(35:43):
and His suggestions that the experience of alien contact itself
may be more transcendent than physical in nature, yet nonetheless real,
set him apart from many contemporaries such as Bod Hopkins,
who advocated for the physical reality abiliens. Yeah, so this
is you're get into metaphism, bigfoot territory here. Like even
Timothy Render, I think, says about his kind of abduction story,
(36:07):
he said, well, he says it was real, I think,
But he says he doesn't think he was abducted. I'm
fairly sure was in the traditional sense. So I think actually,
to him, probably this would be the kind of stuff
that tim would be very much into. His letter research
broadened into the general consideration of the merits of an
expanded notion of reality, one which allows for experiences that
(36:29):
may not fit the Western materialist paradigm yet deeply affect
people's lives. His second and final book on the alien
encounter experience, Passport to the Cosmos, Human Transformation and Alien Encounters,
was as much of philosophical treaties connecting the teams of
spirituality and modern war views as it was the culmination
(36:53):
of his work with the experiencers of alien encounters to
whom the book is dedicated. In November nineteen ninety four,
Mac traveled to Rua, Zimbabwe to interview children at the
Aerial School, who claimed that they had seen in the
Ufo Land in their school and aliens exeit the craft. Yeah,
we have an episode about that to check out if.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
You basically just put that in there talking about earlier. Yeah,
if you want to hear a bit more about that,
we don't really have the David Mac excuse me, the
the the John Max stuff in there. David Mac is
a daredevil artist psychologies. Yeah, well, yes, if you want
to hear a bit more about that. It's an interesting
story of basically a load of children who have this
strange encounter with the craft during school.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, it's an interesting one. So I mean, yeah, like
this is one of those stories that kind of hope
that opens the door to a lot of interpretation, a
lot of discussion around the interpretation. So sometimes we get
into when we do the more abstract explanations for cryptids
or you know, things like the Wendigo and how that
(37:58):
represents the things.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, because this is what's interesting with this, the likes
of the Wind to Go and Bigfoot and the fact
that Bigfoot's getting sort of wilder than he was in
the early days, and we talked with him about that
a little bit recently. But this isn't folkal or this
is like people having experiences. So this isn't doesn't seem
(38:20):
to be symbolic or representative of something insofar as it's
actually a thing that's happening. Do you know what I mean?
Like it's sorry when I say actually happening. I think
this is the part of people have trouble with and
it's getting it. It's similar, as you said, to that
metaphysical versus real Bigfoot. Are people actually going on to
saucers and getting stuff done or is it a metaphysical
(38:45):
thing that's happening? Potentially is it the same thing happen
And even if it is metaphysical, like there's stuff about
people going through walls and all sorts of Like there's
very very strange stories with these. I don't know if
you've ever seen The Fourth Kind. It's loosely based on
Max's research. With all this stuff. They swap out Mac
(39:07):
for Mila Jovovic, so classic pretty good. Mac was pretty handsome,
So a picture of when he was younger.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
He is a handsome actually the like in certain hard
things that she has no part of being inserted. Let's
take out one of super Person and let's take out
the protagonist everyone likes and just put a Melovich.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And then second one, let's let's actually put Jill in it. Actually,
I don't know if that works. That's probably the highest
gross comic book universe. Excuse me, yeah, video probably of
all the time.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Right, yeah, but you're right though, you're you're probably onto
something with the abduction thing, And I suppose the implication
is as well, like if you're wanting to get more
abstract in the sense of a soul, is it something
where like your soul is getting abducted, Yeah, and then
like and you're able to see it somehow or some
kind of maybe sort of fragment of it in imagination.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Stuff about basically out of body experiences as they're getting
abducted as well, so they can see their body lying there,
but they're being drawn towards towards something else.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Kind of like an NDA.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but the.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Alien archetype like, but like that's always been around, right,
there's always been, like you can kind of because you
were saying like it's perhaps different from folklore's and it's
like a real account. But like if you go into folklore,
like there are accounts of like you know, they'll say
like and I don't know the the accuracy of them
(40:36):
or whether the interpretations are correct, but like they have
said patents or maybe not ka penins, but like carvings
and things of like what seems to be something in
the sky and people worshiping that or something in.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
The sky, and people are being Renaissance paintings where you
have basically UFOs in the public.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
The idea of God being in the sky, the idea
of Deity being in the sky, you know, ancient Greek
I think the Greeks had, like wasn't some of the
stars and constellations and all that kind of tied in
with all of that stuffs.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Funny enough, it's always the sky or the water for
the ocean. And now the days we're finding these sort
of I don't even know if they're amphibious because they're
they're air or not land to water, so like you know,
they're they're going and they're talking about bases under the
water and all sorts of stuff. So it seems like
where we've said these various gods come from they seem
(41:31):
to be actually coming from it.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, it could be all the same thing, like I mean,
like the stuff in the sky and even saying my
mad dreams and all these things, like they could all
be one and the same thing like that, Like all
of these things could be Yeah, the metaphysical and and
and we have very little I think understand them of
if there is any Yeah, like like the thing is
(41:56):
like I fully like I'd be fully okay with the
id of like you clauseize your dush. That's it, Like
let's get over bo i am. I find to probably
believe that there's a little bit more or because I
think personally it's like it's almost human nature to look
for more. Yeah, And I think because that's human nature,
(42:19):
then that there probably is more. It's like coded into
us to be like there's something else there.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
They say about say taking mushrooms or acid are going
on kind of a loucinogenic journey. Is that a lot
of it is informed by your own beliefs before you
take the stuff. So if you are a very atheistic person,
you your experience might be it won't have that kind
of spiritual you might Yeah, like you might have a
(42:50):
more of a numbers and maybe there's some whereas if
you're open to the possibilities of maybe some metaphysical stuff
that might inform because and I'm not saying this is
nessly true for the the out of body experiences or
death or anything, but sometimes I do think what you
believe in might actually actually happen when you die. Like
(43:12):
maybe if you do believe in the seventy two versions
and all that shit, like, maybe that does happen. Or
maybe if you believe in heaven, you go to the
heaven or hell. Maybe if you're like you and me,
where you kind of believe in something but you're not sure,
that's the one that's a bit scary because you're like,
what where am I going to go? Where?
Speaker 2 (43:30):
God, Jesus or brother. Hopefully that'd be silent. They'll be
like listen, brother, when you're you're tired in the right place,
you're all right, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
And then maybe if you're atheistic and you just want
it to be gone, you know, forget, maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
It's just want to get it. Like some people.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I think some people are a lot more comfortable with that,
you know, because I was saying and I think it
just like it struck me when we did the simulation
episode where maybe us dying doesn't actually get us out
of the simulation. If this is the simulation, it might
just be the next part of the simulation. Can you
ever leave the simulation? And that made me a bit uneasy,
(44:10):
But it also made me think that if part of
the simulation is based on your belief system, then the
next part could just create something based on that.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, true, but it is.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
It is an awful thing thing that like we're not
out of it after but.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
The afterlife and like what happens when you die is
just like present new morning about the future where like
really and truly it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Like no, that's true, and you have very little control
over it.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
It's very much present new right here, right now gone
oh no, like present is going to be gone, but
like future like once it happens, is gone, and like
your worries and everything are gone. So then what the
fuck is the crack?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Like what was the point in this?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
But it's just like it doesn't matter, Like the thing
is like you know, great people have lived and died
and it's all whatever whatever side of the also but
ultimately we've had a experience here already saw whatever happens after,
I suppose is bonus DLC.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And enough that no matter how great people are in
terms of how society the dark, but we'll also like,
the greatest person, the greatest people to me in my
life are people that will not go down in history
and don't mean anything yet not yet. Yeah, Rob Infamous
shut up a school, But that's it's like, which is
(45:30):
kind of interesting. They won't be remembered, and yes, to me,
they were the most important person and one of the
most important people that I met, So I think maybe
thinking of it in that regard. And that's why you
can't put a value on human life relative to other
human life. You can't say this man is worth more
than this man, or that woman is worth more than
this woman, or vice versa or whatever, because we're all
(45:53):
we're all made up of the same shit, like, and
the way that we define how important that is on
Earth doesn't fucking matter because Earth is a tiny little
speck in the middle of nowhere. And I think if
we can try even remember that a bit more, be sound.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, like it's just yeah, it's a shame because it's
only if you have a bubble of comfort, of sort
of relative comfort that it can even afford you to
say things like that, because there's people that again live
and die that you know, have absolutely horrendous fucking lives.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, there's people that get a glimpse of life before
they die. They're born, yeah, and goes wrong and they
pass quickly, and it's tragic, it's horrible. And as you're saying, yeah,
people in war torn countries and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Like it's talking about Africa are like you know what
I mean, you're talking about uf all signs in Africa,
Like how many fucking children in Africa have like fucking
like parasites coming out of the pole and like fucking
lizard fish swimming up their mickey's or something in the
river and it's like dust their life. Like yeah, yeah,
you're some young lad, you're a boy. You're playing in
(46:58):
some fucking river and so that South America and one
of them was fucking up your fucking eye, fish goes
over your mickey, or you get some parasite that leaves
you blind.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, and it's a real shame because you might have
had a big piece on.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It, a big pace or yeah, something that goes up
into your brain and leaves you fucking half stupid.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
But sure by the same thing, we could be walking
down the street one day and someone opens a fucking
Larry door into our head and it hits their frontal
cortex so much that a different person is rob billing
and the Yeah, it's all random.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
So there's like Mancart Megan I was. I was listening
to some man Cat Dagon stuff to recently after he passed,
and he was saying how like he was in Africa
and some parasite got into him and like it goes
up into your kidney and it like creates some kind
of like shell around itself or something and basically just
kills your kidney.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
And it's like, but that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
That was he did. Yeah, yeah, but he did have
that at when he was younger.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, he was. I listened to a couple of injuries
with the as well afterwards. I never read any of
his books, but I haven't. He's a big believer in
the other as well. Oh yeah, the other dominion.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
He was supposed to be on a pod like I
messaged him before. Yeah, he's a really nice guy, Like
that was the only interactions I had with him. I'd
heard him I'm Blind Boy back at the day, and
I was like, this is a fellow now for the podcast,
and I got in touch with him and he's a
very sincere and nice guy. And he got back to
me and he was like he was actually on tour
at the time and he's like, I'm on tour them
(48:28):
in like he's like, we'll get back to me and
we'll sort it out. But just never had the chance.
But they're very sincere because like I know, personally, I've
messaged so many people in the industry, but particularly around
that time when I messaged him, we would wouldn't have
been long on the scene. We'd only started, like and
people just wouldn't reply to you. They just go shit
and give a fuck. But like man Conn again, very
(48:49):
big personality over here. But yeah, he gave me the
time to just say, you know, I'm busy, which is
most don't ye, most actually don't bother the whole. But
it just got to show about his character. But he
was a real one. But yeah, just goes to show
you like that's what I'm saying, so like you and
I can specul it and say, ah, you know, about
this and that and the all and the spirit and
the other and whatever happens, and what about these dreams
(49:11):
that appeur to our old glasses. But then there's people
who live and die and that they never have a dream,
they never have a sight, and they never have anything
to have a miserable some people that.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Some people would be the opinion that if we're all
the universe just experiencing itself subjectively, that's a Bill Hicks
bit actually, but that basically I'm your experience in your
life like this. Now I'm experienced in my life like that.
But we're both the same thing. So when these things do,
are these you know, babies come into existence and die
(49:41):
quickly or having an awful time, it's actually we're all
the one in experiencing it. And maybe you know, maybe
when we've experienced everything with you, it's too light. I
don't know. Yeah, it's it's a it's an interest when
it's one like like to your point, we're not going
to know until we know if we have.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Or no, And if we don't know, it don't matter, yeah,
because we still just.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Have to put one foot in front of the other.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Not because we won't we won't We won't be We
won't be here to experience like it's gone.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
When we're dead, like yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Turned off to tell you like it's just gone.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, it's funny. How is it's funny how we can
drift so quickly from we are all one and experiencing
ourselves into nihilism win like three sentences, and that can
really inform how you act on this plan as well,
if you're super nihilistic. But that can be positive, It
can be positive, and it can also be negative. And
I suppose the one of us all being everything depending
(50:34):
on how you interpret it, you know, could also be negative,
depending on what it motivates you to do. But then again,
is negative even negative or is it just my perception
of something that is negative? But it's not. It's just
something that is and we're trying to experience everything that can.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Be I actually, yeah, I actually find that, like myihilistic
kind of the deck quite positive. Actually that the like
we're only here for this time and that's it.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Nothing means anything so.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well as niisic as wrong because we're just using it
for the example of like in the conversation, but the
view of just your hair whilst atheist it's not at
all your hair and you die and then that's the crack.
Like that can be positive, very positive, because like because
to maybe people that have a lot of spirituality or
(51:24):
maybe do believe a lot, and the more wou side
of things is like it sounds kind of ominous or scary,
But what that means to me, or at least how
I interpret it, is like enjoy everything, or when when
you have those mindful moments, like when you're really in
the pocket of something enjoyable, like charge it, you know,
(51:45):
because this is it, like this experience whatever we have here,
everything that we do, whether we touch something that is
tactile and it's nice, whether we hear a song.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Did you ever hear that thing? A man has two
lives and second one starts when he realizes he only
has one.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, you know, but that's it. Like that's how many
old people will turn around to you and say, like
I wish I had have copped something sooner, Like I
wish that when I was forty, I realized like I
had twenty years of the crack left.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, yeah, but you can't. Yeah, that's the thing, is like,
you know, we're stuck, and here's the thing. I'm worried
about I think I'm going for and as human beings
were kind of wired for that, I think one of
the things we have to accept is the limited impact
we have on our own natures. Like I've, for example,
talking about anxiety and all that before I got that,
(52:37):
since I was a kid. I've gone to a dose
of therapy, I've done fuckingestalpron on the bag, all that
shit on the bag, drinking spirits gonna give, But it's
still it's still just there, and you just all right,
I guess this is just power of me. I can't.
I can't. I can't outrun it. No, you know what
I mean. You just have to be like, all right,
this is going to overtake me now, and then there's
(52:59):
no point to me worrying about it on top of
it making me so like what are you going to do?
Speaker 2 (53:03):
You just have to challenge that so that it just
doesn't rule your life.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
You have to find peace with it and be like,
this is the thing that's uncomfortable, and again talking about
positives and negatives, having an uncomfortable feeling is neither good
or bad. It just is. And if you can get
there and I'm not saying I can or I do,
but if you can, that must be easier to live with.
And it's again that sort of detachment.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, and that's the thing is about again. I was
talking about the more spiritual side of things, and like,
you don't have to be afraid of atheist people or anything,
because it is like, you know, if you like, if
I was an atheist, I would be saying, well, I
can make everyone's life better while I'm here, I can
try and help those around me, because we're all sharing
(53:48):
this one experience and we don't know how long of
this experience we have, so let's just you know, yeah,
whereas more religious people feel like it's like, you know,
we're doing it for the gold.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Yeah, but I think I think that there's similar to
It depends to what extent you're really bought into this.
But let's say atheism, conspiracy religion. If you're militant on
those things, that's actually just a control mechanism for you.
If you actually step back and look at it, you're
trying to control your environment and things that are uncontrollable
to the best of your ability or comfort. And I
(54:24):
think maybe arguably a better thing to do is to
go I don't fucking know and nobody does, and just
accept that discomfort. Absolutely, we're got deep we are, but
we're gonna talk about Harvard now. So Harvard say, hang
on there, John, I don't know if we like what
you're doing. So in May nineteen ninety four, the Dean
of Harvard Medical School, Daniel C. Tsost tuss Tessen, appoints
(54:48):
a committee of peers to confidentially review MAX clinical care
and clinical investigation of the people who had shared their
alien encounters with them. Some of their cases were written
in MAX ninety ninety four book Abduction, So apparently this
was the first time in Harvard's history that a tenured
professor was subject to such an investigation.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Well, basically, they didn't like what he was going.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Well, I suppose on one level, again, this is the nineties,
so people think that anyone who is seeing UFOs is
mad because they probably there's an element of duty of care,
and I'd say more so in superseding that is, he's
making Harvard look stupid, and I think that was probably
what drove it. If I'm if, I'm probably now they
don't say that, but that's what I'd be imagining. So
(55:36):
the committee chairman is called Arnold bud Relman. He's a
professor of medicine and of social medicine at Harvard Medical School.
He served as the editor of the New England Journal
of Medicine as well. So according to Daniel pasche In,
one of Max's attorneys, the committee's draft reports suggested that
(55:56):
to communicate in any way whatsoever to a person who
has reported a close encounter with an extraterrest terrestrial life
form that this experience might well have been real is
professionally irresponsible. So as I was saying, I think it's
an ass cover and exercise. I think it's you're making
us look bad. And there is an element, probably rightly
(56:17):
so to be investigated. Are these people being exploited, which
I think is It doesn't seem to be the case
judging by what I've read, and I've listened to a
little bit of a production as well. But again I
can understand why maybe they launched into this.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Yeah, because it would be potentially worried that maybe someone
with sinister motives would be talking to vulnerable people who
are who were talking about.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
To make money off. But again, yeah, well that's.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
It as well, getting or what someone else.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
I mean, we get into this as well. Funnily enough,
not Mac. He seems like a non buttsy character. But
upon the public revelation of the existence of the committee,
questions arise from the academic community regarding the validity of
an investigation of a tenured professor who was not suspected
(57:07):
of ethics violations or professional misconduct. So no one's ever
been investigated for what he's doing, and they're admitting in
the same draft that he's not suspected of ethics violations
or professional misconduct. So it's an interesting one. Concluding the
fourteen month investigation, Harvard then issued a statement stating that
(57:27):
the Dean had reaffirmed doctor Mac's academic freedom to study
what he wishes and to state his opinions without impediment.
He said that doctor Mac remains a member in good
standing of the Harvard Faculty of Medicine. So yeah, I
won't read the next paragraph out because it doesn't really
(57:47):
add much to it, but it's a it's very interesting,
and I think, you know, I think they probably did
have to do something because this was so left to center.
But I do think also the way that Mac appears
to be approaching these cases is it seems to be
in good faith, fair game, fair game, and you know
(58:10):
he's not trying to sensationalize things. But we do have
a list of a few well, well I put together
a few little cases rob as well, just to see
the kind of stuff again. In nineteen ninety four, that
MAC is basically saying, I'm not saying this is aliens,
but it is something, and I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
Crypt crypt right, Well, let's get to it. Hundreds of
people described the MAC of being forcibly taken by non
human intelligences. Many shared strikingly consistent details despite never having met.
(58:53):
One common pattern was the light entry. Witnesses reported waking
paralyzed as a brilliant, almost liquid light flooded the room,
followed by weightlessness and total emotional disconnection from ordinary, ordinary reality.
MAC didn't find mere sleep paralysis symptoms. Patients would recall
(59:14):
details like wounds healing overnight, or neighbors reporting strange lights
at the same timestamp.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
So that's interesting because that goes to show then, unless
the neighbors are colluding with them, there seems to be
some sort of event taking place at the point when
they are saying they're getting abducted.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
Yeah. One of his most studied cases was a Midwestern
school teacher who had zero New Age beliefs and who
reacted with trauma rather than transcendence. She described being taking
through her bedroom wall into a bright craft where tall
insect like beings examined her with both medical sterility and
(59:53):
unnervingly personal emotional probing, as if they were studying human love.
That is interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
And the fact that they're they're the mantis type like
insect like aliens. So that's you know, like the mantis,
the Reptilians, the Nordics, the grays.
Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
It would be cool like if if you know, the
mandas aliens, like they shrunk themselves down to be like
praying mantis just so they could spy on us.
Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
It's a it's a bold move, Cotton, will it work out?
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
That's some of them, like they're just hanging out as
many Rick Moranish, just like, yeah, we'll go down to
the side that we can kind of hang out.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
And a really bad attention may like terrifying. Like if
I saw a six foot praying man decided ship all
over my ass, I would but to be honest, I
think I'd take one strong there and they have like
if you if you had some sort of you know,
a catana or something maybe or pound for pound.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Pounds are mad strong.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
And if you think about their exoskeleton, their tiny little things,
they are crunchy like to get through that exoskeleton.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
When her he probably snapped her head off though.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
You would with a web place roundhouse not.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I just trodaic fire. Yeah, so I'm getting fat now,
so I throw myself around the big husky bitch try.
Big husky would be able to do anything.
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
She was just figure out.
Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I just had to figure out how to trow myself
at them in such a way that I wouldn't get grabbed.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
That's I think would be kind.
Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Of like flippers Home.
Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Young was the he was able to flip what was
that martial law?
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
I think.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Tree on the.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Seas martial that he'd be going in dude like he
was a cop, wasn't he?
Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
It was just like he was an overweight cop.
Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
But he was.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Classic and stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I need to down Sam. That's hung yeah, yeah he's yeah.
Generally is it looks like a frog? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
He was the man. Yeah. That was corny as yeah,
but it was fun. It was like Jesus Christ, the
god big like Sam. He's got the long hair with
the hair band and all as well.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
He's kind of I'm kind of going the way of Samo,
to be honest.
Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
With you have time to undo the whole.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
She was assistance there, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Yeah, yeah, well he's like even seeing there there, he's
he's a bit curving there, but he's still look strong
like strong Samo strong style.
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Where is he from? Then?
Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
His tern heroes with Samo Hung Samo Hung. He's I
love how quickly this podcast can be completely derailed.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
That's Hayang Gaba. That is Gabba. It's from Hong Kong.
Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
For them Chinese? Is he.
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Class of Chinese?
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
I think they are now anyway, the class. It's a
different thing altogether.
Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
I actually don't know that's a legitimate question.
Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
I asked Jeeping, what's the Chinese ai.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
We like China. I think I've decided, well.
Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Jeeping is saying much more reasonable thing than the other fellows.
I don't know. It's terrifying. I think that song is
one of the lads in the league, and he was
like yeah, I think he said, I think we'll all
just wind up going away in China. But he was like,
I don't think China actually want to take over the world,
it's just it's the most efficient thing to do at
the moment, so by proxy, because America seems to be in.
Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
We could be in a nuclear meltdown, soundo, So that's
kind of fun. So I actually think that, like, now,
this is just tall, hyper hyperbolic nonsense. But I wouldn't
be all surprised if Rushi is a nuke at some point,
because they're getting their whole not their hole kicked, but
(01:04:03):
they're not getting the games that they hoped and they're
getting they're getting attacked domestically.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Now lads are turning on them. They have been for
a while. Well they're while they're protesting, and then there's
only so many people you can lock up before there's
no more room to lock up people.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
And the drawns Ukrainian drawings that were hitting.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Moscow, did they get the tomahawks from?
Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
I think that's upper down, But they don't really need him, honestly, Like,
I mean, of course that'd help, but like they're doing,
like listen, considering the odds and who they up against,
your crownd are doing very well. Like it's not that
it's not a war they can win. They have to
be realistic.
Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
But like, but Portan's refusing to actually sit down and
go right, give us a bit of that gives it, Like,
and I think if he did, he could at this point.
Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I don't think. I don't think that. I don't think
yourkan will give him anything. I think they know well.
I think they're like, no, well, so that's what it
says that they're saying they're not going to give them anything,
and they do, right, sure, how would how could you?
Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
No? Absolutely, I think it's just you're trying trying to
go like, we need to stop this ship. Yeah, but obviously,
like look, lads like you and me don't want your
graining to lose this. We're your opinion. But I do
think you're right. I think that Putin's getting older. I
think people like that, who are you would imagine massively narcissistic,
(01:05:17):
malignantly narcissistic. You would imagine that, like if he's going
to die, he'd be like, sure, fucking I'm gonna die
anything pop this off.
Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Like the the attacks onderfield infrastructure seemed to be making
a big difference, Like that's I think they're down to
twenty percent on the grid like in terms of their output.
Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Yeah, and there's fresh sanctions gone on them as well.
Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Yeah, soon all the population gets discontented long enough, I mean, well,
it's going to be interesting why iron Sharpin's iron type
of country, like if the if the leader isn't being
the hard content that they want them to be, that
they're not kind of results.
Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Talk about the interesting as well. With the government shut
down in the US, how people are generally three meals away,
you know, storming the.
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Beast, So great time.
Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Yeah, yeah, I can't wait to it all. Just as
you're saying that, I can nearly just see that life
that's just coming through the curtains as we're all vaporized.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
So to get back to these events here, Samo hung
just throw.
Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
His fucking he went from them hung to the fucking
martial arm the fucking nuclear wasteland.
Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
One of the most studied cases was a Midwestern school teacher. Yeah,
we talked about that part. Yeah, they were studying love
the the mantises. For weeks after she had triangular skin
impressions and recurring flashback bursts of the same alien faces.
Mac meticulously checked for psychiatric or disassauciate of disorders. They
(01:06:40):
found none and noted genuine post traumatic stress identical to
combat veterans. Another case was that of a married father
who experienced repeated abductions through his adolescence, but remained terrified
to speak of it until Mac gently hypnotically regressed him.
What am I urged was chilling rows of hybrid fetuses
(01:07:04):
in liquid vaults, as if a breathing program were underway.
He reported the beings expressing not malice but ecological grief,
warning that humans were destroying the arts biosphere and that
the hybrid project was kind of a cosmic long term contingency.
Mac emphasized that no part of this man's life suggested
(01:07:27):
fantasy prone personality, quite the opposite. Yeah, that's all of
those kind of theories. Like even even if we get
true sentience via AI, like where we have it to
once again we mentioned AI, if we get it to
basically act as a living breathing person and like display
(01:07:51):
kind of conscious conscious uh conscious in in the way
that we expect, like think, then we are aotentially god makers.
So then like or we're acting like a god. So
then we did wonder, like was that us as well?
Like as a trickle.
Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Down if the AI can create consciousness. Yeah, then it
probably solves that kind of hard problem in that there's
just enough inputs. Basically, if you have enough data, consciousness
can be created. Or it's that foundational thing of consciousness.
Is you know a force in the universe or some
(01:08:35):
sort of energy thing in the universe kind of tap
into it, or is there only certain things that can
filter into it?
Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Or is the simulation Yeah, like that, Like, I think
that if we were able to make something like a
consciousness from like machine parts, I think that gets really.
Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
Really Nick Bolstrom's whole thing, isn't it that like we
are living like you know, sixty six percent we're living
in a Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
That's but like, yeah, it gets really interested. And if
like we can manage AI to create a world or
a kind of an idea.
Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
And I guess you're saying the machine is conscious, We're
in the machine, we're conscious parts of the machine.
Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Yeah, we're already parts. We're already part.
Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
And that would be like a technological way of saying, oh, yeah,
we are all one like the machine.
Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Well, I think that would be the logical takeaway from
if we can get AI to do the same, it's
like a step down kind of a machine with a
machine like an emulator. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. So, yeah,
it's interesting. Yeah. Max pattern data showed zero interest in
the visitors, or by the visitors in religion, ideology, or
technology technology unless it contend or pertend to biospheric continuity
(01:09:49):
or emotional development. A Brazilian piety interviewed to describes being
shown vast, desertified vistas of future art sees gone black
and having an almost forced transfer of grief injected into
his nervous system, after which the feelings released him as
though he'd been uploaded with sorrow now. Mac noted that
(01:10:13):
the visitors often appeared more concerned with consciousness evolution than
tech exchange. Late in his research, Mac began viewing the
phenomenon less as literal of kidnappings by extraterrestrials and more
as a collision point between human and between human reality
and wider multi dimensional ecology. The abductees weren't all traumatized.
(01:10:39):
Many became environmental activists, spiritually transformed, shattered of materialist world views,
tracking about all that true.
Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
Everything Max said is true. I think it's I think
it's a really interesting thing because it obviously happened. He's
released several books on the subject, and it seems like
a quite scientific way into looking at it. I know
I had a book before about near Dead or Sorry,
Raymond Moody had the book about Near the Experience. I'm
(01:11:09):
sure he was kind of side you a good bit
when Yeah, but I think these things they are they
are happening in society and they need to be investigated.
Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
I suppose all you can do, and maybe they should
do it a bit more. Maybe rem and Moody and
mac is like, really, I suppose I kind of have.
But I was going to say, like they should probably
candidly voice their feelings on the subject, like like let's
say they came out and said, look, I think this
(01:11:39):
is bollocks, but I'm going to talk to as many
people that I can talk to and they have these experiences,
which they do to be fair, Like I think rem
and Moody kind of did say, like, you know, after
all of my research, I believe more in it than
I did before.
Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
Yeah, I think I think the same because, like, you
know that it's happening, you know that there's too much
coincidence here. You know that people can't just be making
up bullshit, and it doesn't seem to have mental illness
or a brain that's misfiring connecting to it. So they're
basically looking at these and going right, of all of these,
I'm sure there's a few of them that are just
(01:12:15):
mad lads, but that doesn't account for all of them.
M It's just we don't have any hard evidence to
tell us what it does account for. So effectively, we
know a really weird thing happens with our culture in
terms of these abductions and near death experiences and whatever.
We just don't know how. We don't know what they are,
(01:12:36):
and we just know what they are, same as ghosts
and stuff like that. Yeah, too many people saying ghosts
to be like that's bollocks. There's some sort of truth there,
just we don't know what it is yet, and they
could be all connected in some way as well.
Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Yeah, or it's all bollocks ander just manifestations of the
human mind in some kind of like not organic way,
but like in a sort of they're like misfires.
Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Or maybe there's another thing then, because you do kind
of wonder if you know, people can hallucinate and have
these mental illnesses where you know they're stuck in a
kind of a hallucination or faulty logic. Can you just
have that for a minute and it goes away? I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Yeah, I'm always inclined to believe, And it doesn't really
make any difference either way, because like part of me
always feels and I've said on the pop before that like, true,
alien stuff is probably beyond our comprehension. But then the
flip side of it is, maybe our comprehension is alien,
Like maybe what we are is alien. Saw anything that
we do imagine that we can see and stuff that
(01:13:40):
is like what we were class as human, Like like
giant praying mantes as, for example, is something that humans
can imagine because we know what the prime mantice looks like,
so it's like, oh, he's a big prea mandus. But
like maybe that is alien. You know, maybe maybe maybe
we are alien and all of this imagery is alien.
Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
Part of the things they say is that like the
reason they're reptilians and this and that because their hybrid
programs make that's all. Some other people are saying stuff
like that the grays might not be real, but the
craft is real, so like like the craft is conscious aren't.
(01:14:17):
Oh yeah, it's like a yeah, it's like it's like technology. Man,
maybe AI goes on to create these crafts talk who knows,
like it's yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
Yeah, because yeah, because if AI becomes fully conscious and
then you go to it like all right, now you
know what that is? Can you replicate that? And if
it says you yes, you go all right, okay, Well
what I want you to do is I want you
to make a planet that's in space, that's you know,
it's in a solar system.
Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
Of the galaxy and create it.
Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
I want you to create to create. You know, however,
billion people are there and I want all of those
people to experience the same thing you're experience and right now,
can they do that? And if it doesn't, then you're like, okay,
this that I think opens the lid on like what
the fuck is going on?
Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
What's going on here?
Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
But if that happens, like then you're going to have
everyone now and said.
Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
But it's interesting then because we've created a thing that
like it's like it's almost like a feedback loop created
thing that creates an environment for us that it's very
it's it's bizarre. And yeah, I suppose the other thing
about it is if an ai does is that powerful
and it has consciousness, it may just be like no, yeah,
(01:15:30):
or if it's agency or if.
Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
It and you'll go here telling me, can you pull
up John that's forty seven, lives in Dublin and works
as a fucking mechanic and let me just say about him?
And that's your abduction? Do you know what I mean? Yeah,
that's what's happened to the Babel.
Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
The other part is like it could just then because
there's rules to this reality we live in. We know
what the rules are, Like I can't jump out the
window and survive, Like, well I can this window it's
not that high up, but you know what I mean,
Like there's certain things you can't really that won't work. Then,
like is there is there a person in the world
that just doesn't die or something? Is there weird outlawyers
(01:16:07):
that exist that we don't know about, because the simulation
can just be like, oh, well this pocket here does that.
Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
That's what it should be next week's episode. If you
find anything on people that are alleged to have lived
for like, well.
Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Have you ever had arians and all that? People who
just they live on prana?
Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Vampires? You know they're like folk Claric.
Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
We'll take a look a s you can find any
It was Lazar, No, Lazarus resurrected. He's a fellow that
never Benjamin Bond. Yeah, possibly, why we leave it there? Yep,
I've been robbed, I've been naming.
Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
I'll be enjoyed this man fox Master falls over and
out
A crypt and this is a script. I wanted to
quit against my enemies. Yeah you see, you wanted to
say and then learn how to raise you. But I
forget you from the wild.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello everyone, what is up?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I am raight, I am aiming.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
It is Monster Fuzz coming live.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
For us. Yeah right now.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's live from Wexford.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, live from Wexford from us. But for you it's
not this pre recorded but for us, this is live
right now, is live for us.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
The good news for our listeners is we don't do
any editing, so it is don't.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Say that, lad got all upsessed, got all.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Side, I'm talking about audio editing.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Oh no, well he got sad. He got said. First
of all, I don't think he's ever listened to the
podcast before. He said, I used to like monster phows.
But then they said they use AI for their notes.
They said on one episode we had used it. Generally speaking,
we don't use it. But obviously you're an avid listener,
so you know that. And the other part is he said,
he said, also they don't fact check. Have you ever
(01:16):
listened to this fact checking?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Josanel brother, If you fact checked any cryptoso logical content,
you'd have no podcast. Let's let's go fact check Sasquatch
chronicles there.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm not going to fact check.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Let's let's fact check that. I no, no, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I don't mean actual fact check. Yeah no, I don't
mean what way this is?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Then? Is not genuine check? The people who are there
check properly fact check all of them stories.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Look, people, people are entitled to their opinion, but it's wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Get a fucking grip, bitch. Hey, I is here to
stay brother and get bummed by the robot all for lords.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Jeremy Corbell, the open challenge between you and Rob is
still there.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Do you fancy a bit of celebrity box? And yeah,
he's a black belt, and so I think maybe so
we'll have.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
To get if your boxing. It has to be as
long as it like was he like jujitsu. Lads just
lie on their back like they're waiting to get road.
We're there in ourselves. So a lot of people started,
I know this is these are lads.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
You call it.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
You're looking to fight Bob Lazer. You let George knap
off respect for journalistic George? Is anyone else going to
get it?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Sasquatch himself, I'm doing what's his name, Donning? And I
am West West in a T B one.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, I'll be there for I wouldn't mind doing Tornado
two boys.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah. I think that's not fair, but I think.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Statistically improbable that the case will break on power would
power babs be true? It?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
But we'll see, we'll see. Hope everyone still well, Hope
you're good and your day is go crack. Hopefully you're
high on gabba and enjoying life.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I know I am.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, that's the way it is Todayman, what are we
talking about?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
We are talking about John E. Mac?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Who say is anything to Mac eleven?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
John? Who's Mac? Matt? That the razor?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And there's a rapper?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Oh, I thought it was like Gillette Mac three. Maybe
I didn't know if they were on eleven. I don't
shave very often. I'd like to grow.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
He's from a long line of rappers that are named
after machine guns or guns Mac Mac eleven Tech nine,
little Oozy.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Vert Hold forty five. Would he be a would he
be a fellow Desert MC Desert Eagle? Would he be
another lad?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Probably a rapper called them four carbine or something for carabine.
Probably would they shoot a lot they would, I'd say,
so lottle loozy vert.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
What's the is a vertical? It was, what's the vert?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I don't know new rappers.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
He's the lad who's taking benadre and just looks like
a school desk with all his tattoos.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Like yeah, and multicolored hair.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And I do like the way that these lads do
be just drinking kalpal and like drawn garbage on their
face and they're just like yeah, like it is kind
of the most sort of nihilistic. I don't give a fuck.
Attitude to life is drink kalapal and draw on your
own face. Sorry, when you just step back for a
(04:12):
second and just think about you're saying, drink kalapal, take
downers and draw on your own face permanently.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, Grime said that that is pretty good tattoo. Apparently,
what's your face tattoo? That looks stupid. It looks like
a birth mark. It's like a kind of a red
ring that kind of goes around her eye and its
just like something looks like she's battered or something like,
you know, Grime, looks like she's come.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Out with Yeah. I wonder what they talk about.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
They're not together. So he did.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
He just like, I've yef them or what right? It
isn't type of someone I'd like you to carry my child.
And she was like, fuck off, nerd and then he
was like your band from using Google or whatever the
fu want X anymore? He didn't, Actually, you better not
go on X anymore of Google.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Man.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, Google sabs on Internet from the.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Pretty lame grimes is.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, but it does go to show you those lads
who are real smart and all are still if the
smartest brain gaba are so easily corrupted by fucking gas
information on Twitter. That's my young gabba, you know. I
mean we're all high young gabba, right, lads, Yo gabba Gabba.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Before we get into this episode about John Mack, we're
gonna remind everyone we are on Petreon over there. You
ad three episodes, you'll get exclusive episodes, you'll get access
to our discord and probably other stuff. You also compare
for the air if you like, which is a great,
great pledge. It's an emotional pledge and it means that
really you're like for the next year, I don't care
(05:58):
what I got back at anyway, that's exactly what you.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And that's much romantitude we have. We don't care.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It's romantic.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It is a romantic I tried to do some like
sort of you know, Gregorian chance music there in the
background to give it a sense of veritas.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Now it is. It's romantic. It's emotional, especial saying, and
all of our passions are appreciated. You will also get
a shout out on articy many fuzzes if they have
any crypto encounters, spooky stories, anything really about anything.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
We're going to be talking today about the science of
Alian abductions. Not really, but we are looking at it
from a scientist's point of view. I guess you could
say and be curious, you know, if anyone does have
any interesting abduction stories or maybe those weird dreams that
people think could be related to abductions. This story, Robert,
(06:55):
that these listeners can send I nearly ran ahead there
by mistake. Send them to Monsters podcast at gmail dot com.
We'll read him out on Mini fuzz. But this story,
rob it's very interesting in that this is a highly
credentialed psychiatrist.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So the first part of the episode is really just
talking about his life, his background and kind of how
we got into this, and then the second part is
looking a bit more at some of the specifics of
the stories he came across. So there's a little small
few bits and pieces. I tried. He has a book
(07:29):
called Abductions, I Believe, and I tried to listen to
some of it on the Spotify and I did listen
to some of it as well, but I haven't really
gotten through enough of it yet. I was trying to
listen to other one of the UFOs of God as well.
But it's tough work. It's good, like it is good,
but nothing wrong with it. It's just you kind of
(07:52):
want to just get into the meat of it and
hear the stories. So like if you consider if you're
listening to podcasts or something like something like the likes
of radio, your rentals say, or someone will call in,
they'll have a story about a spooky encounter they had,
and there's some nice production behind it. There's some some
music and some atmosphere. It's nice to listen to, gets
you kind of in the mood for it, whereas with
(08:14):
an audiobook it's a bit sterile in how it's it's
it's presented. So sometimes if you've just written through ow
and then I did this and blah blah. It can
be tricky to really enjoy sometimes I think listen to.
I think something like this is better to actually read
rather than to listen to. That said, I I did
listen to Louisando's book Imminent, which I thought worked very well.
(08:36):
And I listened to Skinwalker Ranch as well, George Knapp
and actually an Irish an Irish fella, I can't even
remember his name off my head. Liam Gallagher. No, that's Oasis,
fucking she Eyes Wolf. I think it was Gallaher. It
probably wasn't, I hope. Let me just check.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I want to say.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Anyway, what I was trying to say is I listened
to a bit of this book. It's interesting. It's worth
checking out. I think it might be one that's better
to read rather than listen to. We're going to go
through it all as we always do. We're going to
tell you all the things, and you are going to
find out what you think in the end. What I'm
going to do, I hope.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
You'll act checked it, because if you didn't, I'm not
going to read it. Well.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I'll tell you one thing that I didn't do well,
that's fact check it right, Okay, do you have been
thinking about what the intro? I We'll give it a
go there.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, you can look up Lam Gallagher there on his Wikipedia.
John Edward Mack October fourth, nineteen twenty nine to September
twenty seven to two thousand and four life was an
American psychiatrist, a writer, and a professor of psychiatry. He
served as the head of the Department of Psychiatry and
Harvard Medical School from nineteen seventy seven to two thousand
(09:50):
and four. Seventy seven, Mac won the Pulitzer Prize for
his book A Prince of Our Disorder on TV. Lawrence
Mac's clinical expertise was in child psychology, adolescent psychology, and
the psychology of religion. He was also known as a
leading researcher on the psychology of teenage suicide and drug addiction,
(10:12):
and he later became hi on Gabaman and he later
became a researcher in the psychology of alien abduction experiences.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
It wasn't Liam Gallaher, it was Colin Kellerher. You can
see those names are somewhat similar. Yeah, so he like
he's he's pretty well credentialed. Mac. We'll see as we
go into this story later. He's one of the only
Harvard professors that's basically investigated outside of inappropriate behavior. So
(10:44):
basically they're investigating what he's doing and kind of going,
don't be doing alien induction shit, all right, and we'll
get into that later. Yeah, it's an interesting in the story.
So the life of Mac mac turn up then and
then I saw and then he torok me out of
(11:05):
bed ship. We're up here in the sky, oh god,
and going down. My lord the lad you told me
you would not promise last year out of this episode,
and you know what's going on after that? I got
(11:26):
five Come on.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Come on, tell us about this one of the Mac.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, he was born in New York City. He was
born in New York. His father was a historian, Edward Clarence.
He was a professor, and his mother Eleanor Liedman Mack.
She died actually why he was an infant, so he
was he didn't really know where at all, devon one
(11:58):
of eleven. H it's cool of like we just laughed
so wantonly at our own jokes that maybe five people
just a little last never to be mine again. Did
you hear? I was signing bombs for the I d
there the other day.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, that's Dramon. He's regratuate, which is why.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I great Jewish man, another great Jew, he'd be top
five actually Jews Roman know he's Polish people.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
People just don't Polish.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Fucking amount of Polish Polish shoes. Polanski probably is one
to be fair problematic Jews. There is who's the director?
So there's Polanski. What's your man's name? You know his name?
He does all the.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Movies problematic Jews?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
You know, geez, what are we going?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
The lad went out with this fucking stepped on.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, Woody Allen, that's it.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
He's a bit of a balleck.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Who else a BB Nenya who arguably a bad Jewish?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Uh? Was he? Yeah? I think he was a Jew. Brother,
you're onto that.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I think BB definitely is.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I don't know about him, but Roman plans he was
definitely Roman. Yeah, probably he is. Yeah, he is Jewish. Yeah,
the Jewish gentiles. But he raised the Catholic apparently something
like that.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, and you know, so what what came which which
which was the non spider Jewish bidder the Catholic bit
which part drove it?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well? Yeah, we know that one Yeah, we're off.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
To a good start anyway. Coffee anyway. Sure. After his
mother died, his father married the economist Ruth P. Mack,
through which he had a half sister, Mary lee Ingbar,
a pioneer of computer analysis who became a professor at
Dartmouth College and University of Massachusetts Medical School. So this
is all to say that Mac basically his family are
(14:03):
quite educated people.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I'm not just putting in what his family do for
the crack. They're educated people, and it's supposed to make you,
the listener, recognize that he's not a crack pot who
knows alien abductions or class. Your probe ma, and you
told me that you love me, you're probe math. So
as John grew up, his father would read the Bible
(14:28):
to him and his sister, but interestingly he would read
it as a work of culture rather than a kind
of a scripture. So it's more about culture and literature
as opposed to a belief system.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
He graduates from Horace Man Lincoln School in nineteen forty
seven and Phi Beta Kappa from Oberlin in nineteen fifty one,
and he receives his medical doctorate degree come Lauder, which
is meant to be good, So he gets that from
Harvard Medical comeloud to me, you said that you would
(15:03):
not come so out, so he does that. In nineteen
fifty five, Max subsequently interns at Massachusetts General Hospital and
he trains as a psychiatrist at the Massachusetts Mental Health Center. Now,
just to show you how cool he is as well,
class In nineteen fifty nine, he joins the United States
Air Force, serving as a use. He serves as a
(15:27):
medic in Japan, and he rises to the rank of captain.
So he's a brave character as well. Nineteen sixty one,
he returns from military service in Japan, continuing at the
Massachusetts Mental Health Center and Boston Psychoanalytic Society and Institute,
receiving certification in Child and Adult Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy. Nineteen
(15:47):
sixty four, he returns to Harvard Medical School and he
becomes a full professor in nineteen seventy two, Class ninety.
By nineteen seventy seven, excuse me, he's become the chairman
of the Executive Committee Committee of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School,
and he occupies this position until his death in two
thousand and four. So he's published over one hundred and
(16:10):
fifty articles and eleven books in his career as department
head at Harvard Medical School. He worked primarily in the
field of child and adolescent psychology. He worked on treating
suicidal patients, and he published a lot of research on
heroin addiction as well. Now, the dominant theme of his
life's work at Harvard has been the exploration of how
(16:30):
one's perception of the world affects one's relationship. He addresses
the issue of worldview on the individual level, and his
early clinical explorations of dreams, nightmares, and teen suicide In
A Prince of Our Disorder his biographical study of the
life of British officer T. Lawrence, and he actually wins
(16:51):
the Pulitzer Prize for this in nineteen seventy seven. So again,
this isn't just some sort of a crackpot fellow who
decides he's going to get into the ali stuff in
you know, I don't know when, maybe it's becoming popular
or whatever. He's highly credentialed. He there's there's stuff in
here as well. I didn't put it in the notes
(17:11):
because I thought it was maybe just a bit too born.
But there's a lot of stuff about the Cold War
and him contributing to sort of lessening tensions. And he
was not an advocate, but he was a spokesperson to
try to de escalate basically nuclear arms and stuff like that.
So and you can see as well when it said
that he's released eleven books, it's not like he's released
(17:35):
eleven books that are all about aliens robin people. It's
proper psychoanalytic work.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Oh okay, well, let's find out a little bit more
about the alien stuff. In the early nineteen nineties, Mac
commands to the decaut plus psychological study of two hundred
men and women who reported recurrent alien encounter experiences. Such
encounters have been limited, had some limited attention from academic
figures or Leo Sprinkle what a name, perhaps being the
(18:03):
earliest in the sixties, Mac however, remains probably the most esteem.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Sprinkle did that in the sixties, so he had looked
into this stuff in the sixties.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Leo Sprinkle, right, So mister Sprinkles, Mac however, remains probably
the most esteemed academic to have studied the subject. He
initially suspected that such persons were suffering from mental illness,
but when no obvious pathologies were present. His interest was
piqued following encouragement from longtime friend Thomas Kuhne, who predicted
(18:34):
that the subject might be controversial, but urged Mac to
collect data and ignore prevailing materialists, duellists, and either or analysis.
Mac again concerted study and interviews. Many of those he
interviewed reported that their encounters had affected the way they
regarded the world, including producing a heightened sense of spirituality
(18:55):
and environmental concern, which, yeah, we would say, like NDA
can do with that.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, and we see it a lot with people who
say they've had encounters with aliens or whatever. There's a thing,
a recurrent theme which is basically stop destroying the planet.
And again I don't think they're in these notes, but
he the aerial school in Zimbabwe where the children alsow
the craft, so he would have investigated that quite a
(19:22):
bit as well. It's yeah, it's it's interesting like that,
the that recurrent thing about like stop sucking the planet
up basically.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Then you kind of also wondered, like, well, why are
the aliens just taking a random lad and be like
planets and bits, and like what's what's he gonna do?
Why wouldn't they take like Trump.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Or like here yeah, or if they're not, or if
they're not, if they're not abducted and the person is
manifest and why are the manifest? And and and like
why is the change in the reworld? Or like what what?
What does it? Watch? The purpose of it? You know
what I mean? Well, but then like people are finding
(20:02):
that way dreams can change your worldview, you know, any
experiences like that can can really leave last.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
The worldview for me at least, always tends to change
gradually over time, you know what I mean. Like I
don't tend to hear a piece of new information and
just immediately go oh, yeah that. But if you track
yourself over time, you sort of you see how you
slowly change. Or you might come across a new idea
and maybe it implements partially into your life, and then
(20:30):
as you get older, that's kind of morphed and warped
and cocooned a little bit as well.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, well I'm thinking of even like you know, dreams
or abductions might be more of a spiritual thing, and
that spiritual thing then ties into your worldview in terms
of what you can see.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Well, what is funny is, as we read through this,
he actually comes up to quite a similar hypothesis you
have in that he kind of we'll get into it
for sure, but he basically he's going like, well, I
can't fully like, I can't validate if these people are
getting abducted by extraterrestrial entities. But there is something that's
(21:07):
where he lands. There's something going on here. He doesn't
say exactly what it is. We've talked before about potential
like forces of nature that could account for strange metaphysical
beings being seen or ghouls and all the rest of it,
but it's actually a part of nature. We just don't
understand it. And I think he lands on something relatively similar.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, could be. I had a really fucking mad dream
recently and I was like, oh Jesus, what the fuck
was that? Maybe kind of thing for a second, anyone
who listens to the podcast regular and I was like,
my grand that passed recently and I had this fucking
dream was really weird. And like his surviving wife, my grant,
(21:51):
she has like dementia and stuff like that. That's pretty bad.
But in the dream, I was out with the two
like shopping as I would have done quite a bit,
and I was but we were abroad. We were in
like fucking Japan, I think actually my mother land. And
we were going around and like they were kind of
say as they were maybear or two ago or whatever,
(22:14):
and we lost my granda in a dream. We couldn't
find him. Me and me granny were going around and
she was kind of like threatening, so where is he?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Where is he?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Trying to find him and this and that and other,
and I think people might have been looking for him
or whatever, and we're in this like shopping center kind
of you know how dreams are, like you know, you
blink and a different place, but then you blink and
you're in a different room. So like I blinked and
I was in their conservatory right and no one was
in there, and my granddad walked in and he was
(22:49):
in really good like physical he was kind of like
kind of like he was maybe five or six years
ago where he was like decent physical shape and everything.
And but the feelings from the dreams still persist where
we were trying to like find him, and he sits
down and he's like he has his paper, like he
was just to sit there reading his paper. And he
sat there, he's like where's where's Marin like, where's she
(23:10):
looking for me? Tellor, I'm fine, Like, TELLR, I'm okay,
everything's okay, I'm fine. And I was like yeah, okay,
and he was kind of laughing and he had his
paper like he was like, oh yeah, it's all going.
And then I woke up.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I was like, fucking hell, did you think it was
some sort.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Of like really emotional like I was like, yeah, fucking wreck,
because it's kind of a nice thing.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
It was lovely, especially if you think that you know,
you're saying your your nan, yeah she's and you know,
if there is some sort of connection to some place
that you probably have an awful lot of I even
have memories of your granddad the paper, so I'd say
you have a lot. And that was probably a time
maybe when maybe that's like one of the happiers of
(23:51):
his life or whatever.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, we'd be just sitting there shooting the ship in
the cantarbatry and it was strange. It fucking fucked with me,
but yeah, it was. It was nice. But it was
like it was like almost paranormal to where I was
like it almost felt like it was kind of like
do you believe in this or you don't believe in it. Yeah,
it was almost felt like it was one of those things.
It was like pick your poison, because like maybe once
(24:13):
or twice in my life, if I had a dream
like that where it was like something, and it usually
was after something someone passed, I think I had another
wrong about my auntie. But so then you ask yourself.
We're talking about wardview and stuff like that and things
like that, like those are two experiences that I've had.
They're not abductions, but they are potentially experiences that might
(24:33):
change your view of how things work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
and how you understand.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
How many people you're approaching it probably in a similar
way to the way I would, And that's we're not
totally skeptical, we're not totally body going. That's possible that it's,
you know, this nice thing where he's kind of saying, hey,
everything is good, but don't worry about it. And it's
also possible that your brain is just kind of throwing
up this this projection projection exactly to help you. Yeah,
(25:00):
but what I mean, I mean, in a sense, both
things are so, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
And if they are, then why and why do that happen?
You know, it's very interesting. But yeah, theyd left America.
It was fucking this is this is fucking spooky. But yeah,
So to get back to return of the MAC. So
many of those of the interview we talked about that part.
(25:29):
MAC was somewhat more guarded in his investigations and interpretations
of the abduction phenomenon than were earlier researchers. Literature professor
Terry Madison writes that on balance, Mac does present as
fair minded an account as has been encounter to date,
at least as these abduction narratives goal. In a nineteen
(25:52):
ninety four interview, Jeffrey misch Love stated that Max seemed
inclined to take these abduction reports of faith value. Mac replied,
saying face value. I wouldn't say I take them seriously.
I don't have a way to account for them, which
is fair.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I mean, like this is the thing we referenced, what ales,
like you have all these people sending stuff in and
you're talking about fact checking and all, like, you can't,
like you can't. You have to take people at face value,
and well not a face value. You have to I
(26:29):
suppose if you're doing like so what or even what
tim is doing It's like you kind of have to
do You have to you have to give them the
respect that they deserve for their story and presume the
best from them. Yeah, which is the right way to
do it if you're trying to give it the respected desires.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
You think about this as well. This guy is a psychiatrist,
so he's coming at this from the angle of expecting
to find mental illness underlying, and he's not finding that. Yeah,
And that's why I think this is so interesting because
again we went over as could credentials for exactly this purpose.
It's to show you that he's not a crackpot, he's
(27:08):
not a maniac. He's obviously quite wealthy as well with
the ayatoma, but he's he's ahead of the Harvard Medical
like he You would presume that you're not going to
put all that up for grabs and then go down
this other way where you go, maybe I'll make money
doing this. He's always he's already making good money. It
(27:29):
must be so when you're trying to think of the motivation,
it would seem that a genuine curiosity and coming at
it from the perspective of a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst and
also then trying to find trends. And again we get
into it a bit more as we go on, but
it's a I think it's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
And that's probably why as well that like maybe critics
were struggling to properly grasp a critique of him, because yeah,
he has a politicer prise, he's accredited professional who has
a long and well established body of work.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
You've got to remember as well in the nineteen nineties
like that you were made fun of for UFO stuff.
We saw that with the Phoenix lights and that when
they dressed up as the alien, all this sort of
stuff like files. Sure. Yeah, even it's only starting to
change nowadays with the UAP and Congress and all the
(28:23):
rest of it. And even that is finding a lot
of a lot of blocks when people are trying to
come forward and you have to go into the skiff
to do X, Y and Z, lots of stuff that's
still classified. So yeah, it's it's at the time you
can understand why people were skeptical, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah. So in a nineteen ninety six interview with pbsc Stad,
there are aspects of this which I believe are we
are justified and taken quite literally that is, UFOs are
in fact observed filmed on camera at the same time
that people are having their reduction experiences. It's both literally
physically happening at the same time, I'm to a degree,
and it's also some kind of psychological spiritual experience occurring
(29:05):
and originating perhaps in another dimension.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
So think about that. If someone is saying that in
nineteen ninety six, the year before final comes out supporting year,
you know, it's it's like it's just at that time,
we're talking thirty years ago, Like you're being called a
quackpot for that.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Like well, like anyone that reports like a kind of
an experience a quack pot that was like a crackpot together,
any one of the reports like a kind of profound
experience like that, you do have to kind of give
them a fair shake and kind of look at it.
Like and again that was myself when I had that
weird dream like last week, I was like, I should
(29:46):
probably sit down and like think about this fromant and
like try and grasp it and give myself a bit
of time to actually go like what the fuck was that?
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Like, you know, I just sit down and meditate on
it a bit, like yeah, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
There, like just to think about it and go like, okay,
is it a feeling type of dream? Is it a
you know because someone that said maybe years ago, is
that And I think we've kind of talked about in
the podcast before. I don't know where the idea comes from,
but someone was saying that, like different people that you
see in your dreams represent what are to you. Yeah,
(30:22):
well what you view I might view them, and as
I don't know the cost of the podcast, so maybe
I might view em and as like someone that I
laugh with, So like if I'm having a humor stream
or something, you represent that part of me. But I
don't necessarily I don't know whether I agree with that
now no sense at the time, but I kind of
as I as I get older, Like I heard that
(30:44):
when I was like Eddie, and now I'm like, I
don't know about the.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Other part as well, when people say things like so
your your teeth phoning out in the dreams, money, all
that sort of stuff. But like it's possible that even
though these are archetypes and you're kind of getting into
that young and culture like the collective unconscious, but it's
possible that somethings might mean different things. Here's one for you. Right,
(31:07):
So you had that dream about your grandfather, which on
the face of it would seem to have quite a
straightforward symbolism if it was just a dream, in that
it's being told everything's okay, I'm okay, don't worry about it,
she's looking for me. Everything's fine, which is a very
nice thing. It's very straightforward symbolism as well. Crypt crypt
(31:38):
I had a dream a few months ago and it
stuck with me because it felt very vivid. So I
had a dream that I woke up in bed and
I was covered in blood and there was basically like
a small shark just on the podcast, but I could
feel the slickness of the blood and I couldn't so
much feel the pain, but the shark just kept eating me,
(32:00):
and I was like, this is fucking stupid. Like and
from a symbolic point of view, I'm sure the shark
is maybe representative of something. I'm not sure what it
was representedive of, and it's eating me, so you assume
that that's taken away some of your your free will
or whatever. So it could be anything. It could be
I could have been having Maybe me and Powell were
having a fight that week something or maybe my job
(32:21):
or maybe something who knows, But the symbolism isn't as
straightforward and as honest. That's what your dream was. But
our brains are quite similar, so you would expect that
they would have a similar process to create this stuff.
So why is it then that you get something that's
(32:42):
very nice and I would say probably as you said,
does help you, you know, with with this thing, and
it has a nice kind of a wholesome feeling to it,
Whereas I have this thing that's sort of symbolic of
something that I don't know what it is and is
a bizarre way to represent to me. Because surely, if
I was having to say that was having worries about
(33:03):
my job, if I always have a dream to make
me feel better, surely it would be like my boss
or something. You're doing a good job, It's okay, don't
worry about this. Everything is going to be fine. So
why so, it's just interesting that these mechanisms are from
the same thing one the end result is much different
versus the thing I had it. Now, I've had dreams
like you have had with that as well, But why
(33:24):
are they manifesting so differently? It's it's worth considering, and
I don't know what the answer is.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, well like your your mind caused I suppose of
when you're dreaming, you have experiences where people that have
passed appear. You're like, okay, well is that some is
there some kind of way to communicate with some kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Soul or a spirit links between?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So yeah, something like that happening. Sleep is the cause
of death, as.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
They say, and isn't it? Isn't it the finey iel gland,
which they say just goes bananas with d emt when
you're crossing over into that other place, and that's pretty
active when you're dreaming as well, So it's there's possibly
the same mechanism or something there is happening.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, it was wild.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
It's a nice dream though. It's a really nice dream.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah. It was funny because like when I had it
and I went up to my granda next day, like
I almost couldn't tell her because over dementia. Yeah, and
like she just forgets things anyway, And you're kind of like,
but even in a way, I haven't that dream of
him saying that, You're kind of like why you like,
like because as you said, it was like why are
you looking for me? Tell them I'm a right, Like,
(34:36):
they don't need to be looking for me or worrying
about me. Yeah, yeah, so, and that's the kind of
thing with me. Granted, should be going over and going
over the same things like. So it was nice, it
was good. It was a good one. But yeah, to
get back to return have the mac ah lot. Yeah,
he said, I would never say yes, but there are
aliens taking people. But I would say there is compelling,
(34:58):
powerful phenomenon her that I can't account for in any
other way. It's mysterious yet I can't know what it is.
But it seems to me that invites a deeper further inquiry,
which yeah, it does. Mac noted that there was worldwide
history of visionary experiences, especially in pre industrial societies. One
example is the vision quest common to some Native American cultures,
(35:21):
one fairly recent in Western culture, notes Mac have such
visionary events being interpreted as aberrations or as mental illness.
Max suggested that abduction accounts might best be considered as
part of this larger tradition of visionary encounters. His interest
in the spiritual or transformational aspects of people's alien encounters
(35:43):
and His suggestions that the experience of alien contact itself
may be more transcendent than physical in nature, yet nonetheless real,
set him apart from many contemporaries such as Bod Hopkins,
who advocated for the physical reality abiliens. Yeah, so this
is you're get into metaphism, bigfoot territory here. Like even
Timothy Render, I think, says about his kind of abduction story,
(36:07):
he said, well, he says it was real, I think,
But he says he doesn't think he was abducted. I'm
fairly sure was in the traditional sense. So I think actually,
to him, probably this would be the kind of stuff
that tim would be very much into. His letter research
broadened into the general consideration of the merits of an
expanded notion of reality, one which allows for experiences that
(36:29):
may not fit the Western materialist paradigm yet deeply affect
people's lives. His second and final book on the alien
encounter experience, Passport to the Cosmos, Human Transformation and Alien Encounters,
was as much of philosophical treaties connecting the teams of
spirituality and modern war views as it was the culmination
(36:53):
of his work with the experiencers of alien encounters to
whom the book is dedicated. In November nineteen ninety four,
Mac traveled to Rua, Zimbabwe to interview children at the
Aerial School, who claimed that they had seen in the
Ufo Land in their school and aliens exeit the craft. Yeah,
we have an episode about that to check out if.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
You basically just put that in there talking about earlier. Yeah,
if you want to hear a bit more about that,
we don't really have the David Mac excuse me, the
the the John Max stuff in there. David Mac is
a daredevil artist psychologies. Yeah, well, yes, if you want
to hear a bit more about that. It's an interesting
story of basically a load of children who have this
strange encounter with the craft during school.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, it's an interesting one. So I mean, yeah, like
this is one of those stories that kind of hope
that opens the door to a lot of interpretation, a
lot of discussion around the interpretation. So sometimes we get
into when we do the more abstract explanations for cryptids
or you know, things like the Wendigo and how that
(37:58):
represents the things.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, because this is what's interesting with this, the likes
of the Wind to Go and Bigfoot and the fact
that Bigfoot's getting sort of wilder than he was in
the early days, and we talked with him about that
a little bit recently. But this isn't folkal or this
is like people having experiences. So this isn't doesn't seem
(38:20):
to be symbolic or representative of something insofar as it's
actually a thing that's happening. Do you know what I mean?
Like it's sorry when I say actually happening. I think
this is the part of people have trouble with and
it's getting it. It's similar, as you said, to that
metaphysical versus real Bigfoot. Are people actually going on to
saucers and getting stuff done or is it a metaphysical
(38:45):
thing that's happening? Potentially is it the same thing happen
And even if it is metaphysical, like there's stuff about
people going through walls and all sorts of Like there's
very very strange stories with these. I don't know if
you've ever seen The Fourth Kind. It's loosely based on
Max's research. With all this stuff. They swap out Mac
(39:07):
for Mila Jovovic, so classic pretty good. Mac was pretty handsome,
So a picture of when he was younger.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
He is a handsome actually the like in certain hard
things that she has no part of being inserted. Let's
take out one of super Person and let's take out
the protagonist everyone likes and just put a Melovich.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And then second one, let's let's actually put Jill in it. Actually,
I don't know if that works. That's probably the highest
gross comic book universe. Excuse me, yeah, video probably of
all the time.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Right, yeah, but you're right though, you're you're probably onto
something with the abduction thing, And I suppose the implication
is as well, like if you're wanting to get more
abstract in the sense of a soul, is it something
where like your soul is getting abducted, Yeah, and then
like and you're able to see it somehow or some
kind of maybe sort of fragment of it in imagination.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Stuff about basically out of body experiences as they're getting
abducted as well, so they can see their body lying there,
but they're being drawn towards towards something else.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Kind of like an NDA.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but the.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Alien archetype like, but like that's always been around, right,
there's always been, like you can kind of because you
were saying like it's perhaps different from folklore's and it's
like a real account. But like if you go into folklore,
like there are accounts of like you know, they'll say
like and I don't know the the accuracy of them
(40:36):
or whether the interpretations are correct, but like they have
said patents or maybe not ka penins, but like carvings
and things of like what seems to be something in
the sky and people worshiping that or something in.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
The sky, and people are being Renaissance paintings where you
have basically UFOs in the public.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
The idea of God being in the sky, the idea
of Deity being in the sky, you know, ancient Greek
I think the Greeks had, like wasn't some of the
stars and constellations and all that kind of tied in
with all of that stuffs.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Funny enough, it's always the sky or the water for
the ocean. And now the days we're finding these sort
of I don't even know if they're amphibious because they're
they're air or not land to water, so like you know,
they're they're going and they're talking about bases under the
water and all sorts of stuff. So it seems like
where we've said these various gods come from they seem
(41:31):
to be actually coming from it.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah, it could be all the same thing, like I mean,
like the stuff in the sky and even saying my
mad dreams and all these things, like they could all
be one and the same thing like that, Like all
of these things could be Yeah, the metaphysical and and
and we have very little I think understand them of
if there is any Yeah, like like the thing is
(41:56):
like I fully like I'd be fully okay with the
id of like you clauseize your dush. That's it, Like
let's get over bo i am. I find to probably
believe that there's a little bit more or because I
think personally it's like it's almost human nature to look
for more. Yeah, And I think because that's human nature,
(42:19):
then that there probably is more. It's like coded into
us to be like there's something else there.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
They say about say taking mushrooms or acid are going
on kind of a loucinogenic journey. Is that a lot
of it is informed by your own beliefs before you
take the stuff. So if you are a very atheistic person,
you your experience might be it won't have that kind
of spiritual you might Yeah, like you might have a
(42:50):
more of a numbers and maybe there's some whereas if
you're open to the possibilities of maybe some metaphysical stuff
that might inform because and I'm not saying this is
nessly true for the the out of body experiences or
death or anything, but sometimes I do think what you
believe in might actually actually happen when you die. Like
(43:12):
maybe if you do believe in the seventy two versions
and all that shit, like, maybe that does happen. Or
maybe if you believe in heaven, you go to the
heaven or hell. Maybe if you're like you and me,
where you kind of believe in something but you're not sure,
that's the one that's a bit scary because you're like,
what where am I going to go? Where?
Speaker 2 (43:30):
God, Jesus or brother. Hopefully that'd be silent. They'll be
like listen, brother, when you're you're tired in the right place,
you're all right, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
And then maybe if you're atheistic and you just want
it to be gone, you know, forget, maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
It's just want to get it. Like some people.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
I think some people are a lot more comfortable with that,
you know, because I was saying and I think it
just like it struck me when we did the simulation
episode where maybe us dying doesn't actually get us out
of the simulation. If this is the simulation, it might
just be the next part of the simulation. Can you
ever leave the simulation? And that made me a bit uneasy,
(44:10):
But it also made me think that if part of
the simulation is based on your belief system, then the
next part could just create something based on that.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, true, but it is.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
It is an awful thing thing that like we're not
out of it after but.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
The afterlife and like what happens when you die is
just like present new morning about the future where like
really and truly it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Like no, that's true, and you have very little control
over it.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
It's very much present new right here, right now gone
oh no, like present is going to be gone, but
like future like once it happens, is gone, and like
your worries and everything are gone. So then what the
fuck is the crack?
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Like what was the point in this?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
But it's just like it doesn't matter, Like the thing
is like you know, great people have lived and died
and it's all whatever whatever side of the also but
ultimately we've had a experience here already saw whatever happens after,
I suppose is bonus DLC.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And enough that no matter how great people are in
terms of how society the dark, but we'll also like,
the greatest person, the greatest people to me in my
life are people that will not go down in history
and don't mean anything yet not yet. Yeah, Rob Infamous
shut up a school, But that's it's like, which is
(45:30):
kind of interesting. They won't be remembered, and yes, to me,
they were the most important person and one of the
most important people that I met, So I think maybe
thinking of it in that regard. And that's why you
can't put a value on human life relative to other
human life. You can't say this man is worth more
than this man, or that woman is worth more than
this woman, or vice versa or whatever, because we're all
(45:53):
we're all made up of the same shit, like, and
the way that we define how important that is on
Earth doesn't fucking matter because Earth is a tiny little
speck in the middle of nowhere. And I think if
we can try even remember that a bit more, be sound.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, like it's just yeah, it's a shame because it's
only if you have a bubble of comfort, of sort
of relative comfort that it can even afford you to
say things like that, because there's people that again live
and die that you know, have absolutely horrendous fucking lives.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, there's people that get a glimpse of life before
they die. They're born, yeah, and goes wrong and they
pass quickly, and it's tragic, it's horrible. And as you're saying, yeah,
people in war torn countries and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Like it's talking about Africa are like you know what
I mean, you're talking about uf all signs in Africa,
Like how many fucking children in Africa have like fucking
like parasites coming out of the pole and like fucking
lizard fish swimming up their mickey's or something in the
river and it's like dust their life. Like yeah, yeah,
you're some young lad, you're a boy. You're playing in
(46:58):
some fucking river and so that South America and one
of them was fucking up your fucking eye, fish goes
over your mickey, or you get some parasite that leaves
you blind.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, and it's a real shame because you might have
had a big piece on.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It, a big pace or yeah, something that goes up
into your brain and leaves you fucking half stupid.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
But sure by the same thing, we could be walking
down the street one day and someone opens a fucking
Larry door into our head and it hits their frontal
cortex so much that a different person is rob billing
and the Yeah, it's all random.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
So there's like Mancart Megan I was. I was listening
to some man Cat Dagon stuff to recently after he passed,
and he was saying how like he was in Africa
and some parasite got into him and like it goes
up into your kidney and it like creates some kind
of like shell around itself or something and basically just
kills your kidney.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
And it's like, but that's what happened.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
That was he did. Yeah, yeah, but he did have
that at when he was younger.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, he was. I listened to a couple of injuries
with the as well afterwards. I never read any of
his books, but I haven't. He's a big believer in
the other as well. Oh yeah, the other dominion.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
He was supposed to be on a pod like I
messaged him before. Yeah, he's a really nice guy, Like
that was the only interactions I had with him. I'd
heard him I'm Blind Boy back at the day, and
I was like, this is a fellow now for the podcast,
and I got in touch with him and he's a
very sincere and nice guy. And he got back to
me and he was like he was actually on tour
at the time and he's like, I'm on tour them
(48:28):
in like he's like, we'll get back to me and
we'll sort it out. But just never had the chance.
But they're very sincere because like I know, personally, I've
messaged so many people in the industry, but particularly around
that time when I messaged him, we would wouldn't have
been long on the scene. We'd only started, like and
people just wouldn't reply to you. They just go shit
and give a fuck. But like man Conn again, very
(48:49):
big personality over here. But yeah, he gave me the
time to just say, you know, I'm busy, which is
most don't ye, most actually don't bother the whole. But
it just got to show about his character. But he
was a real one. But yeah, just goes to show
you like that's what I'm saying, so like you and
I can specul it and say, ah, you know, about
this and that and the all and the spirit and
the other and whatever happens, and what about these dreams
(49:11):
that appeur to our old glasses. But then there's people
who live and die and that they never have a dream,
they never have a sight, and they never have anything
to have a miserable some people that.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Some people would be the opinion that if we're all
the universe just experiencing itself subjectively, that's a Bill Hicks
bit actually, but that basically I'm your experience in your
life like this. Now I'm experienced in my life like that.
But we're both the same thing. So when these things do,
are these you know, babies come into existence and die
(49:41):
quickly or having an awful time, it's actually we're all
the one in experiencing it. And maybe you know, maybe
when we've experienced everything with you, it's too light. I
don't know. Yeah, it's it's a it's an interest when
it's one like like to your point, we're not going
to know until we know if we have.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Or no, And if we don't know, it don't matter, yeah,
because we still just.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Have to put one foot in front of the other.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Not because we won't we won't We won't be We
won't be here to experience like it's gone.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
When we're dead, like yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Turned off to tell you like it's just gone.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, it's funny. How is it's funny how we can
drift so quickly from we are all one and experiencing
ourselves into nihilism win like three sentences, and that can
really inform how you act on this plan as well,
if you're super nihilistic. But that can be positive, It
can be positive, and it can also be negative. And
I suppose the one of us all being everything depending
(50:34):
on how you interpret it, you know, could also be negative,
depending on what it motivates you to do. But then again,
is negative even negative or is it just my perception
of something that is negative? But it's not. It's just
something that is and we're trying to experience everything that can.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Be I actually, yeah, I actually find that, like myihilistic
kind of the deck quite positive. Actually that the like
we're only here for this time and that's it.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Nothing means anything so.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well as niisic as wrong because we're just using it
for the example of like in the conversation, but the
view of just your hair whilst atheist it's not at
all your hair and you die and then that's the crack.
Like that can be positive, very positive, because like because
to maybe people that have a lot of spirituality or
(51:24):
maybe do believe a lot, and the more wou side
of things is like it sounds kind of ominous or scary,
But what that means to me, or at least how
I interpret it, is like enjoy everything, or when when
you have those mindful moments, like when you're really in
the pocket of something enjoyable, like charge it, you know,
(51:45):
because this is it, like this experience whatever we have here,
everything that we do, whether we touch something that is
tactile and it's nice, whether we hear a song.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Did you ever hear that thing? A man has two
lives and second one starts when he realizes he only
has one.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, you know, but that's it. Like that's how many
old people will turn around to you and say, like
I wish I had have copped something sooner, Like I
wish that when I was forty, I realized like I
had twenty years of the crack left.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Yeah, yeah, but you can't. Yeah, that's the thing, is like,
you know, we're stuck, and here's the thing. I'm worried
about I think I'm going for and as human beings
were kind of wired for that, I think one of
the things we have to accept is the limited impact
we have on our own natures. Like I've, for example,
talking about anxiety and all that before I got that,
(52:37):
since I was a kid. I've gone to a dose
of therapy, I've done fuckingestalpron on the bag, all that
shit on the bag, drinking spirits gonna give, But it's
still it's still just there, and you just all right,
I guess this is just power of me. I can't.
I can't. I can't outrun it. No, you know what
I mean. You just have to be like, all right,
this is going to overtake me now, and then there's
(52:59):
no point to me worrying about it on top of
it making me so like what are you going to do?
Speaker 2 (53:03):
You just have to challenge that so that it just
doesn't rule your life.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
You have to find peace with it and be like,
this is the thing that's uncomfortable, and again talking about
positives and negatives, having an uncomfortable feeling is neither good
or bad. It just is. And if you can get
there and I'm not saying I can or I do,
but if you can, that must be easier to live with.
And it's again that sort of detachment.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, and that's the thing is about again. I was
talking about the more spiritual side of things, and like,
you don't have to be afraid of atheist people or anything,
because it is like, you know, if you like, if
I was an atheist, I would be saying, well, I
can make everyone's life better while I'm here, I can
try and help those around me, because we're all sharing
(53:48):
this one experience and we don't know how long of
this experience we have, so let's just you know, yeah,
whereas more religious people feel like it's like, you know,
we're doing it for the gold.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Yeah, but I think I think that there's similar to
It depends to what extent you're really bought into this.
But let's say atheism, conspiracy religion. If you're militant on
those things, that's actually just a control mechanism for you.
If you actually step back and look at it, you're
trying to control your environment and things that are uncontrollable
to the best of your ability or comfort. And I
(54:24):
think maybe arguably a better thing to do is to
go I don't fucking know and nobody does, and just
accept that discomfort. Absolutely, we're got deep we are, but
we're gonna talk about Harvard now. So Harvard say, hang
on there, John, I don't know if we like what
you're doing. So in May nineteen ninety four, the Dean
of Harvard Medical School, Daniel C. Tsost tuss Tessen, appoints
(54:48):
a committee of peers to confidentially review MAX clinical care
and clinical investigation of the people who had shared their
alien encounters with them. Some of their cases were written
in MAX ninety ninety four book Abduction, So apparently this
was the first time in Harvard's history that a tenured
professor was subject to such an investigation.
Speaker 2 (55:11):
Well, basically, they didn't like what he was going.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Well, I suppose on one level, again, this is the nineties,
so people think that anyone who is seeing UFOs is
mad because they probably there's an element of duty of care,
and I'd say more so in superseding that is, he's
making Harvard look stupid, and I think that was probably
what drove it. If I'm if, I'm probably now they
don't say that, but that's what I'd be imagining. So
(55:36):
the committee chairman is called Arnold bud Relman. He's a
professor of medicine and of social medicine at Harvard Medical School.
He served as the editor of the New England Journal
of Medicine as well. So according to Daniel pasche In,
one of Max's attorneys, the committee's draft reports suggested that
(55:56):
to communicate in any way whatsoever to a person who
has reported a close encounter with an extraterrest terrestrial life
form that this experience might well have been real is
professionally irresponsible. So as I was saying, I think it's
an ass cover and exercise. I think it's you're making
us look bad. And there is an element, probably rightly
(56:17):
so to be investigated. Are these people being exploited, which
I think is It doesn't seem to be the case
judging by what I've read, and I've listened to a
little bit of a production as well. But again I
can understand why maybe they launched into this.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Yeah, because it would be potentially worried that maybe someone
with sinister motives would be talking to vulnerable people who
are who were talking about.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
To make money off. But again, yeah, well that's.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
It as well, getting or what someone else.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
I mean, we get into this as well. Funnily enough,
not Mac. He seems like a non buttsy character. But
upon the public revelation of the existence of the committee,
questions arise from the academic community regarding the validity of
an investigation of a tenured professor who was not suspected
(57:07):
of ethics violations or professional misconduct. So no one's ever
been investigated for what he's doing, and they're admitting in
the same draft that he's not suspected of ethics violations
or professional misconduct. So it's an interesting one. Concluding the
fourteen month investigation, Harvard then issued a statement stating that
(57:27):
the Dean had reaffirmed doctor Mac's academic freedom to study
what he wishes and to state his opinions without impediment.
He said that doctor Mac remains a member in good
standing of the Harvard Faculty of Medicine. So yeah, I
won't read the next paragraph out because it doesn't really
(57:47):
add much to it, but it's a it's very interesting,
and I think, you know, I think they probably did
have to do something because this was so left to center.
But I do think also the way that Mac appears
to be approaching these cases is it seems to be
in good faith, fair game, fair game, and you know
(58:10):
he's not trying to sensationalize things. But we do have
a list of a few well, well I put together
a few little cases rob as well, just to see
the kind of stuff again. In nineteen ninety four, that
MAC is basically saying, I'm not saying this is aliens,
but it is something, and I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
Crypt crypt right, Well, let's get to it. Hundreds of
people described the MAC of being forcibly taken by non
human intelligences. Many shared strikingly consistent details despite never having met.
(58:53):
One common pattern was the light entry. Witnesses reported waking
paralyzed as a brilliant, almost liquid light flooded the room,
followed by weightlessness and total emotional disconnection from ordinary, ordinary reality.
MAC didn't find mere sleep paralysis symptoms. Patients would recall
(59:14):
details like wounds healing overnight, or neighbors reporting strange lights
at the same timestamp.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
So that's interesting because that goes to show then, unless
the neighbors are colluding with them, there seems to be
some sort of event taking place at the point when
they are saying they're getting abducted.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
Yeah. One of his most studied cases was a Midwestern
school teacher who had zero New Age beliefs and who
reacted with trauma rather than transcendence. She described being taking
through her bedroom wall into a bright craft where tall
insect like beings examined her with both medical sterility and
(59:53):
unnervingly personal emotional probing, as if they were studying human love.
That is interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
And the fact that they're they're the mantis type like
insect like aliens. So that's you know, like the mantis,
the Reptilians, the Nordics, the grays.
Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
It would be cool like if if you know, the
mandas aliens, like they shrunk themselves down to be like
praying mantis just so they could spy on us.
Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
It's a it's a bold move, Cotton, will it work out?
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
That's some of them, like they're just hanging out as
many Rick Moranish, just like, yeah, we'll go down to
the side that we can kind of hang out.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
And a really bad attention may like terrifying. Like if
I saw a six foot praying man decided ship all
over my ass, I would but to be honest, I
think I'd take one strong there and they have like
if you if you had some sort of you know,
a catana or something maybe or pound for pound.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Pounds are mad strong.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
And if you think about their exoskeleton, their tiny little things,
they are crunchy like to get through that exoskeleton.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
When her he probably snapped her head off though.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
You would with a web place roundhouse not.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I just trodaic fire. Yeah, so I'm getting fat now,
so I throw myself around the big husky bitch try.
Big husky would be able to do anything.
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
She was just figure out.
Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I just had to figure out how to trow myself
at them in such a way that I wouldn't get grabbed.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
That's I think would be kind.
Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Of like flippers Home.
Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Young was the he was able to flip what was
that martial law?
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
I think.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Tree on the.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Seas martial that he'd be going in dude like he
was a cop, wasn't he?
Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
It was just like he was an overweight cop.
Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
But he was.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Classic and stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I need to down Sam. That's hung yeah, yeah he's yeah.
Generally is it looks like a frog? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
He was the man. Yeah. That was corny as yeah,
but it was fun. It was like Jesus Christ, the
god big like Sam. He's got the long hair with
the hair band and all as well.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
He's kind of I'm kind of going the way of Samo,
to be honest.
Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
With you have time to undo the whole.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
She was assistance there, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Yeah, yeah, well he's like even seeing there there, he's
he's a bit curving there, but he's still look strong
like strong Samo strong style.
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Where is he from? Then?
Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
His tern heroes with Samo Hung Samo Hung. He's I
love how quickly this podcast can be completely derailed.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
That's Hayang Gaba. That is Gabba. It's from Hong Kong.
Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
For them Chinese? Is he.
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Class of Chinese?
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
I think they are now anyway, the class. It's a
different thing altogether.
Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
I actually don't know that's a legitimate question.
Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
I asked Jeeping, what's the Chinese ai.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
We like China. I think I've decided, well.
Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Jeeping is saying much more reasonable thing than the other fellows.
I don't know. It's terrifying. I think that song is
one of the lads in the league, and he was
like yeah, I think he said, I think we'll all
just wind up going away in China. But he was like,
I don't think China actually want to take over the world,
it's just it's the most efficient thing to do at
the moment, so by proxy, because America seems to be in.
Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
We could be in a nuclear meltdown, soundo, So that's
kind of fun. So I actually think that, like, now,
this is just tall, hyper hyperbolic nonsense. But I wouldn't
be all surprised if Rushi is a nuke at some point,
because they're getting their whole not their hole kicked, but
(01:04:03):
they're not getting the games that they hoped and they're
getting they're getting attacked domestically.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Now lads are turning on them. They have been for
a while. Well they're while they're protesting, and then there's
only so many people you can lock up before there's
no more room to lock up people.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
And the drawns Ukrainian drawings that were hitting.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Moscow, did they get the tomahawks from?
Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
I think that's upper down, But they don't really need him, honestly, Like,
I mean, of course that'd help, but like they're doing,
like listen, considering the odds and who they up against,
your crownd are doing very well. Like it's not that
it's not a war they can win. They have to
be realistic.
Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
But like, but Portan's refusing to actually sit down and
go right, give us a bit of that gives it, Like,
and I think if he did, he could at this point.
Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I don't think. I don't think that. I don't think
yourkan will give him anything. I think they know well.
I think they're like, no, well, so that's what it
says that they're saying they're not going to give them anything,
and they do, right, sure, how would how could you?
Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
No? Absolutely, I think it's just you're trying trying to
go like, we need to stop this ship. Yeah, but obviously,
like look, lads like you and me don't want your
graining to lose this. We're your opinion. But I do
think you're right. I think that Putin's getting older. I
think people like that, who are you would imagine massively narcissistic,
(01:05:17):
malignantly narcissistic. You would imagine that, like if he's going
to die, he'd be like, sure, fucking I'm gonna die
anything pop this off.
Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Like the the attacks onderfield infrastructure seemed to be making
a big difference, Like that's I think they're down to
twenty percent on the grid like in terms of their output.
Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Yeah, and there's fresh sanctions gone on them as well.
Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Yeah, soon all the population gets discontented long enough, I mean, well,
it's going to be interesting why iron Sharpin's iron type
of country, like if the if the leader isn't being
the hard content that they want them to be, that
they're not kind of results.
Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Talk about the interesting as well. With the government shut
down in the US, how people are generally three meals away,
you know, storming the.
Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Beast, So great time.
Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Yeah, yeah, I can't wait to it all. Just as
you're saying that, I can nearly just see that life
that's just coming through the curtains as we're all vaporized.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
So to get back to these events here, Samo hung
just throw.
Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
His fucking he went from them hung to the fucking
martial arm the fucking nuclear wasteland.
Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
One of the most studied cases was a Midwestern school teacher. Yeah,
we talked about that part. Yeah, they were studying love
the the mantises. For weeks after she had triangular skin
impressions and recurring flashback bursts of the same alien faces.
Mac meticulously checked for psychiatric or disassauciate of disorders. They
(01:06:40):
found none and noted genuine post traumatic stress identical to
combat veterans. Another case was that of a married father
who experienced repeated abductions through his adolescence, but remained terrified
to speak of it until Mac gently hypnotically regressed him.
What am I urged was chilling rows of hybrid fetuses
(01:07:04):
in liquid vaults, as if a breathing program were underway.
He reported the beings expressing not malice but ecological grief,
warning that humans were destroying the arts biosphere and that
the hybrid project was kind of a cosmic long term contingency.
Mac emphasized that no part of this man's life suggested
(01:07:27):
fantasy prone personality, quite the opposite. Yeah, that's all of
those kind of theories. Like even even if we get
true sentience via AI, like where we have it to
once again we mentioned AI, if we get it to
basically act as a living breathing person and like display
(01:07:51):
kind of conscious conscious uh conscious in in the way
that we expect, like think, then we are aotentially god makers.
So then like or we're acting like a god. So
then we did wonder, like was that us as well?
Like as a trickle.
Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Down if the AI can create consciousness. Yeah, then it
probably solves that kind of hard problem in that there's
just enough inputs. Basically, if you have enough data, consciousness
can be created. Or it's that foundational thing of consciousness.
Is you know a force in the universe or some
(01:08:35):
sort of energy thing in the universe kind of tap
into it, or is there only certain things that can
filter into it?
Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Or is the simulation Yeah, like that, Like, I think
that if we were able to make something like a
consciousness from like machine parts, I think that gets really.
Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
Really Nick Bolstrom's whole thing, isn't it that like we
are living like you know, sixty six percent we're living
in a Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
That's but like, yeah, it gets really interested. And if
like we can manage AI to create a world or
a kind of an idea.
Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
And I guess you're saying the machine is conscious, We're
in the machine, we're conscious parts of the machine.
Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Yeah, we're already parts. We're already part.
Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
And that would be like a technological way of saying, oh, yeah,
we are all one like the machine.
Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Well, I think that would be the logical takeaway from
if we can get AI to do the same, it's
like a step down kind of a machine with a
machine like an emulator. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. So, yeah,
it's interesting. Yeah. Max pattern data showed zero interest in
the visitors, or by the visitors in religion, ideology, or
technology technology unless it contend or pertend to biospheric continuity
(01:09:49):
or emotional development. A Brazilian piety interviewed to describes being
shown vast, desertified vistas of future art sees gone black
and having an almost forced transfer of grief injected into
his nervous system, after which the feelings released him as
though he'd been uploaded with sorrow now. Mac noted that
(01:10:13):
the visitors often appeared more concerned with consciousness evolution than
tech exchange. Late in his research, Mac began viewing the
phenomenon less as literal of kidnappings by extraterrestrials and more
as a collision point between human and between human reality
and wider multi dimensional ecology. The abductees weren't all traumatized.
(01:10:39):
Many became environmental activists, spiritually transformed, shattered of materialist world views,
tracking about all that true.
Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
Everything Max said is true. I think it's I think
it's a really interesting thing because it obviously happened. He's
released several books on the subject, and it seems like
a quite scientific way into looking at it. I know
I had a book before about near Dead or Sorry,
Raymond Moody had the book about Near the Experience. I'm
(01:11:09):
sure he was kind of side you a good bit
when Yeah, but I think these things they are they
are happening in society and they need to be investigated.
Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
I suppose all you can do, and maybe they should
do it a bit more. Maybe rem and Moody and
mac is like, really, I suppose I kind of have.
But I was going to say, like they should probably
candidly voice their feelings on the subject, like like let's
say they came out and said, look, I think this
(01:11:39):
is bollocks, but I'm going to talk to as many
people that I can talk to and they have these experiences,
which they do to be fair, Like I think rem
and Moody kind of did say, like, you know, after
all of my research, I believe more in it than
I did before.
Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
Yeah, I think I think the same because, like, you
know that it's happening, you know that there's too much
coincidence here. You know that people can't just be making
up bullshit, and it doesn't seem to have mental illness
or a brain that's misfiring connecting to it. So they're
basically looking at these and going right, of all of these,
I'm sure there's a few of them that are just
(01:12:15):
mad lads, but that doesn't account for all of them.
M It's just we don't have any hard evidence to
tell us what it does account for. So effectively, we
know a really weird thing happens with our culture in
terms of these abductions and near death experiences and whatever.
We just don't know how. We don't know what they are,
(01:12:36):
and we just know what they are, same as ghosts
and stuff like that. Yeah, too many people saying ghosts
to be like that's bollocks. There's some sort of truth there,
just we don't know what it is yet, and they
could be all connected in some way as well.
Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Yeah, or it's all bollocks ander just manifestations of the
human mind in some kind of like not organic way,
but like in a sort of they're like misfires.
Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
Or maybe there's another thing then, because you do kind
of wonder if you know, people can hallucinate and have
these mental illnesses where you know they're stuck in a
kind of a hallucination or faulty logic. Can you just
have that for a minute and it goes away? I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Yeah, I'm always inclined to believe, And it doesn't really
make any difference either way, because like part of me
always feels and I've said on the pop before that like, true,
alien stuff is probably beyond our comprehension. But then the
flip side of it is, maybe our comprehension is alien,
Like maybe what we are is alien. Saw anything that
we do imagine that we can see and stuff that
(01:13:40):
is like what we were class as human, Like like
giant praying mantes as, for example, is something that humans
can imagine because we know what the prime mantice looks like,
so it's like, oh, he's a big prea mandus. But
like maybe that is alien. You know, maybe maybe maybe
we are alien and all of this imagery is alien.
Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
Part of the things they say is that like the
reason they're reptilians and this and that because their hybrid
programs make that's all. Some other people are saying stuff
like that the grays might not be real, but the
craft is real, so like like the craft is conscious aren't.
(01:14:17):
Oh yeah, it's like a yeah, it's like it's like technology. Man,
maybe AI goes on to create these crafts talk who knows,
like it's yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
Yeah, because yeah, because if AI becomes fully conscious and
then you go to it like all right, now you
know what that is? Can you replicate that? And if
it says you yes, you go all right, okay, Well
what I want you to do is I want you
to make a planet that's in space, that's you know,
it's in a solar system.
Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
Of the galaxy and create it.
Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
I want you to create to create. You know, however,
billion people are there and I want all of those
people to experience the same thing you're experience and right now,
can they do that? And if it doesn't, then you're like, okay,
this that I think opens the lid on like what
the fuck is going on?
Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
What's going on here?
Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
But if that happens, like then you're going to have
everyone now and said.
Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
But it's interesting then because we've created a thing that
like it's like it's almost like a feedback loop created
thing that creates an environment for us that it's very
it's it's bizarre. And yeah, I suppose the other thing
about it is if an ai does is that powerful
and it has consciousness, it may just be like no, yeah,
(01:15:30):
or if it's agency or if.
Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
It and you'll go here telling me, can you pull
up John that's forty seven, lives in Dublin and works
as a fucking mechanic and let me just say about him?
And that's your abduction? Do you know what I mean? Yeah,
that's what's happened to the Babel.
Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
The other part is like it could just then because
there's rules to this reality we live in. We know
what the rules are, Like I can't jump out the
window and survive, Like, well I can this window it's
not that high up, but you know what I mean,
Like there's certain things you can't really that won't work. Then,
like is there is there a person in the world
that just doesn't die or something? Is there weird outlawyers
(01:16:07):
that exist that we don't know about, because the simulation
can just be like, oh, well this pocket here does that.
Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
That's what it should be next week's episode. If you
find anything on people that are alleged to have lived
for like, well.
Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Have you ever had arians and all that? People who
just they live on prana?
Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Vampires? You know they're like folk Claric.
Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
We'll take a look a s you can find any
It was Lazar, No, Lazarus resurrected. He's a fellow that
never Benjamin Bond. Yeah, possibly, why we leave it there? Yep,
I've been robbed, I've been naming.
Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
I'll be enjoyed this man fox Master falls over and
out
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