Going Postal: Joseph M Harris

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:38):
Hello, and welcome to Murder DictionaryPodcast. I'm Brianna and that is Courtney.
Hello. Before we get into thecase that we're going to talk about
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(02:35):
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I think that's pretty much all Ihave anything from you court before we
get into the story. Not really, I'm just looking forward to moving on

(02:55):
to the Letter P. Yeah,we're starting a new letter. We are
on Letter P for going postal.I think everybody kind of knows what it
means, but we're going to explorea few cases from this. Would we
say genre or you know, differenttheme? Yeah, yeah, I mean,

(03:16):
you know, the post office hasdefinitely been in the news. They've
you know, postal workers in general. I'm sure having a non anxiety filled
time lately. Oh yeah, sure, their jobs are simple and so easily
lately. So yeah, I justkind of you know, oh, post
office, postal workers sounds great,Yes, so much to cover great idea

(03:39):
that Courtney had totally perfect. Let'sdive into a little bit of history about
going postal, postal attacks, postalworker violence issues, and kind of get
some background on that first sounds good. Going postal is an expression that originated

(04:01):
in America which refers to incidents wherean employee who loses control of their anger
becomes violent towards colleagues or in theirworkplace. The term actually came to public
consciousness in nineteen eighties because between nineteeneighty three and nineteen ninety three, there

(04:23):
were eleven postal workers who went onmurderous rampages. Only within the US.
The first incident of a postal workerretaliation at work was on August thirteenth,
nineteen seventy, when forty one yearold Alfred Kellum was sent home for drinking

(04:44):
on the job. Who's getting drunkfor my birthday? Yeah? He was,
But yea, what do you do? It's still worth celebrating. My
mom was like to feel it,yeah, exactly. He knew something was
coming. Once he was sent homefor drinking. He came back and he

(05:05):
shot his fifty four year old supervisor, Harry Sendro, three times in the
back before police found him five hourslater passed out. Between nineteen seventy and
nineteen ninety seven, over forty peoplewere killed by current or former employees in

(05:25):
twenty different incidents of murder in theworkplace, so many people. Between nineteen
eighty six and twenty eleven, workplaceshootings happened roughly twice a year, with
an average of eleven point eight peoplebeing killed per year. The incident of

(05:46):
postal worker retaliation in nineteen eighty sixwas really the actual huge one that made
the expression going postal a very commonterm. So that was the one,
like, even though there was onein nineteen seventy that was the very first
and then kind of a blank spot. There was a a couple in between

(06:09):
there. Nineteen eighty six was thebig one that caught just national attention and
then everybody started using that term goingpostal gotcha. So on August twentieth,
nineteen eighty six, in Edmund,Oklahoma, postman Patrick Sheryll was about to
be fired when he decided to basicallyget revenge on his employer. So Patrick

(06:31):
shot twenty of his co workers atthe post office and actually ended up killing
fourteen of them before committing suicide.When the swat team arrived. The nineteen
eighty six mass shooting garnered so muchnational attention that soon everyone knew what that

(06:51):
term meant. It was pretty muchovernight because of the media coverage that everybody
knew going postal was the buzzword.You know. It was the incident that
actually inspired the murderer from the casethat we're discussing on this episode today.

(07:11):
So, Joseph M. Harris wasborn in March of nineteen fifty six in
the State Women's prison in Clinton,New Jersey. Joseph was the second oldest
of ten children, but the kidswere actually separated and sent to different places.
He was born in the prison,second of ten. Yes, his

(07:38):
mother had a lot of children,and she was in and out of prison
apparently, and he was actually borninside the prison system. Do we know
what kind of charges the mother wasbrought in on Usually that I have no
idea. I was not able tofind that information, and it was pretty
hard to dig up a lot ofinfo on this actually from his childhood,

(08:01):
from you know, what's going onwith his mother. There was a lot
of just holes, you know,in the info. There was just nothing
out there. So I'm not exactlysure but you just have to know how
deeply that would affect a child.If you know she's going in and out
of prison and you've got all thesesiblings, there's no way for you to

(08:22):
have stability in your life. Youknow, you can guarantee that that kid
is going to really have a lotof emotional trauma. So he only got
to spend the first two months ofhis life with his mother before Joseph was
taken from her custody and given tohis aunt and uncle. Joseph had hardly

(08:48):
any contact with his mom after hewas taken away, and he didn't even
meet his father until he was elevenyears old. I mean, it's kind
of a good thing that he knowswho his father is, right, I
mean not even I'm not even tryingto like talk shit, but if you
know you've got a lot of kids, it's going to be drugs or prostitution

(09:09):
generally, you know. So it'slike I'm impressed. Yeah, Like right,
that's one word for it. Yeah, I mean I feel bad.
I mean I don't know what theprocess was. Again, there's a lot
of holes here, Like was helooking for his father those whole eleven years
and finally found him? Or didhis bothers see him out. We don't

(09:33):
really know, but the fact thathis mother wasn't there. He was raised
by his aunt and uncle that werehopefully stable and hopefully provided him a loving
home. But then he has nobiological parents, and you know, you
could have as great of a homeas possible, but I think there's always

(09:54):
if you know that those aren't yourbiological parents, there's that curiosity in that
long in a little bit of abandonment. And these days, I think we
have more awareness of that. Soyou know, we could put a kid
in therapy so they could process thosethings, but we know Joseph wasn't getting
that kind of mental health help,you know, to process those feelings.

(10:16):
Very interesting, Yes, So hisrelationship with his mother was very tumultuous since
she was very unreliable because she wasconstantly in and out of chaotic relationships.
Like you said, I feel likethere maybe an angle or an argument to
be made that there was involvement inat least drugs, because I did find

(10:39):
information that her relationships were just absolutelyterrible. She was just in and out
with all sorts of guys that werenot treating her well. And so it
provided this kind of undertone of notreally having a stable place to live,
not really knowing what was going tohappen next, So it was very hard

(11:01):
for him to really be a partof her life when she was going through
that gotcha. From an early age, Joseph actually believed that he was quote
cursed because he was born in prisonand abandoned by both of his parents.
He really just kind of looked athimself as like the ultimate bad luck kid,

(11:22):
like everything that could go wrong willgo wrong. Everything that could happen
that's bad is going to happen tome. He became extremely introverted, He
was timid, and he was reallyresentful of everyone around him that he felt
had a lot more happiness or goodfortune or good luck than him. There

(11:46):
are many reports that he suffered froma lifetime of mental health challenges. However,
the reality is we don't really knowwhat he was diagnosed with and at
what point in his life. Youknow, there's a good argument to be
made that, of course there's sometrauma from the stuff that happened with his

(12:07):
parents, but we don't really knowanything about his diagnoses until maybe later on
during trial when he was evaluated.But it seems that he was struggling with
that his entire life and just didn'treally have any diagnoses or treatment. From
what I could find, we doknow that in his childhood he had an

(12:33):
imaginary friend, and he says thatas a kid, he would hear voices
of what he described as a Indianchief. I'm all seeing overseer. Interesting,
Yeah, it is interesting. I'mnot sure where this came from.
Did you have imaginary friends when youwere a kid? I did not.

(12:56):
I know that i'd hear stories thatmight uncle did and it was like very
real to him. But okay,but I didn't. I really didn't.
But I was also I was anonly child for a very long time.
My brother's like twelve years younger thanme, and so I was very much

(13:18):
a solitary person and I could kindof entertain myself. So I may not
have had an imaginary friend, butI definitely did a lot of talking to
myself and playing with myself, andyou know, you own imaginary friend.
Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, I could have fun me myself and
I because I'm like, everything you'resaying says you should have had an imaginary

(13:39):
friend, but you're just telling methat it was you. Yeah, my
imaginary friend was myself, you know, Okay, did you have an imaginary
friends? Of course? Really?Yeah, And there was its name.
There were two pet mice that Iwould keep, and their names were Timmy
and Vanessa, just like in theSecret of nim Oh Mice, right,

(14:01):
And when they were bad, Iwould put them in the tank of my
imaginary lizard to scare them into beinggood. That's intense. Dissect that,
Yeah, that's a lot to breakdown, all right, So I don't
have the proper credentials to like unpackthat shit. No one does. So
I'm always curious to hear about otherpeople's imaginary friends because mine are so vivid.

(14:26):
Like I know what they were wearing. They looked like Bianca and what's
his name from the rescuers. Likeit was intense. It was intense.
And that's the thing is, Like, I mean, it's it's pretty normal
for that to happen for a kid, but it just seems like in combination
with everything else Joseph was going through, it's normal to an extent, but

(14:48):
then also, like, was thisa sign an early sign of something bigger
going on? For most kids,it's just a normal thing and they talked
to that imaginary friend and they grewout of it, and that's it.
You know, Yeah, it reallyis not a big deal. But I
think in conjunction with you know,other mental health problems and trauma and you
know, just unstable household and stufflike that, it could have been a

(15:11):
much bigger issue for him that maybejust wasn't looked into or treated. Yeah,
and we don't really know about ifhe was religious, so this could
even you know, be missing almostmisinterpreted. Right. This is his god
force that he you know, likea guide. Yeah, there it is,
Yes, an Indian chief with aheaddress guide. He started to say

(15:35):
later on, like that he wouldhear this voice of what he called a
ninja spirit. His explanation of itwas that it was a brave warrior that
helped guide him. So he didn'tjust have this imaginary friend when he was
little. He actually got older andit stayed with him and it well into

(15:56):
adulthood through you know, up untileven being incarcerated. He just had this
ninja spirit that was helping to guidehim. That was what he believed was
real. It was so vivid thatit was a real person in his life.
Basically, so Joseph was also fascinatedwith weapons, and he would frequently

(16:19):
draw guns, swords, and guillotinesall over his books, his belongings,
and his papers. I don't knowif you knew this type of person when
you were little, but I definitelycan envision that person for me. Yeah,
we all know this guy. I'mjust saying this to say all these
things are not awful alone, butaltogether you start to get this picture of

(16:44):
something that's worth kind of perking yourears up and paying more attention to.
Right, Yes, I agree ifyou're just into like, oh, I
like medieval weapons and I like todraw them, and not a big deal
if you just have like a imaginaryor you know, maybe butter eat yourself
a little bit, like when you'reat home alone, Like, no,
it's not a problem. Nobody reallyis going to bad an eye. But

(17:08):
some of these things together, combinedwith trauma and the childhood and mental health
issues and just stacked together, isjust creating this recipe for disaster if untreated.
Yes, I think he just neededto talk to a therapist, maybe
get on medication depending on what hisdiagnoses are, and figure it out and

(17:30):
things could have been fine. Butinstead we're seeing the beginnings of heading towards
a peak of something. You know. His younger cousin says, quote,
he was always fascinated with martial arts. He was always fascinated with explosives.
He always liked guns. But henever hurt anyone. Of course, that

(17:56):
is an important distinction. It's notlike he was the type of person that
was going around and harming animals andother children when he was young or anything
like that. The typical like McDonaldtriad or whatever that we see in suit
many serial killers. He doesn't fitinto that category. This is a going

(18:17):
postal story. So he wasn't doingthat stuff. He was just fascinated with
violence and instruments of violence. Itseems okay. Joseph would also practice martial
arts, and he became quite athletic, growing to be six two and one
hundred and seventy five pounds. Soon top of all the things he's got

(18:41):
going on now, he's a veryimposing figure. Whether he's threatening or not.
It's just the fact that he's asix foot two mans one hundred seventy
five. When he's standing in frontof you, he's kind of demanding attention
just because he's so large, Sothen to have all these other quirks,
right, Yeah, quirks like doingkarate. If you see some guy that's

(19:03):
you know, over six feet doingkarate randomly, I'm gonna take notice.
Yes, I'm gonna be like,what's going on here? Unless you're in
a dojo do it. And hewas the type of person that did karate
and did martial arts just in randomplaces. So if you are over six
feet doing that, you're not ina dojo like where karate happens, it's

(19:26):
gonna be a little like again,I'm gonna kind of perk my ears up,
like, Okay, what's up withthis guy? Yeah, And it's
the kind of thing that you rememberand tell people about later. Right there's
a sun giant man exactly telling eachother the story, right now, that's
exactly it, like people remember,you know. And then when you find
out he's got the Indian spirit guide, the Ninja spirit, the plot thickens

(19:52):
it definitely. So. After graduatingfrom high school in nineteen seventy four,
Joseph says that the Ninja spirit instructedhim to join the US Navy, specifically
for the purpose of being stationed inAsia to fulfill his quote Prophecy. I
like, honestly, this is gonnasound nuts, but I really like that

(20:15):
the Ninja Warriors at least encouraging himto do things that will benefit him later
in life. Right, He's notjust like smoke math and do crack all
day and oh, I'll see whatyou're saying. And at first I'm like
okay, or they're like, youknow, it's like he's giving him an
idea, like hey, maybe youshould go to school, Hey let's join

(20:36):
the navy. Like yes, he'scoming up with things that are going to
be beneficial later, which a lotof people that are having imaginary friends leading
their lives don't come up with goodideas. I mean, he was definitely
guided. It was like his moralcompass, this ninja spirit that he felt
in his words, you know,that's what guided him to do the right

(20:57):
thing. Joseph ended up serving twoyears on an aircraft carrier in the Navy,
specializing in repair of mechanical and electricalequipment. But he received a general
discharge in nineteen seventy seven for failureto attend to his duties. And that

(21:18):
seems like a very just a littlegeneral failure ten toier duties like, the
standards are very high in the Navy. Maybe there was something that he missed.
But if we find out later thathe's kind of slacking off at work
and that's just his m O.And he's literally just doing martial arts at
work, we've got to assume thathe was kind of doing his own thing,

(21:41):
drawing weapons and doing martial arts,and even in the Navy, you
know, I think that's what wasgoing on. We don't know, there's
no direct report of it, butI just assume, because we see it
later on, that that's what wasgoing on before. After he left the
Navy, his contact with family,including his mom and siblings, became increasingly

(22:06):
sporadic. When he got home fromserving, he moved into a small second
floor apartment in this six bedroom housethat was actually owned by his half sister,
Carmen Johnson. Joseph would end upliving there for the next fourteen years,
and Carmen described him as quote veryvery quiet two veries de Yeah,

(22:33):
right, okay, and their family. It's not like, Okay, if
you find someone off of Craigslist,maybe it's hard to get to know someone,
maybe you don't have anything in common. You're a little quiet, but
this is family, someone who's knownhim his entire life. You should be
talking to them, right, checkingin once in a while. So it

(22:55):
is kind of notable that he feelsso detached from people and doesn't really feel
any sort of let's say, obligationto even make small talk with his half
sister. You know. Yeah,for fourteen years he lived there, right,
that's a long time to just nottalk. Yeah, imagine having a

(23:17):
silent roommate for over a decade,just walking in saying nothing, walking out
and going to work saying nothing.It's crazy, that mean, like,
I don't I don't know. Soafter he was home from the Navy,
he decided to enroll in the localcommunity college, but he found it really

(23:38):
difficult for him, and after onesemester he ended up dropping out. Since
school wasn't for him, Joseph decidedto search for a job that would be
a good actual career, not justa job, but something more long term.
There's that Indian spirit then, I'msorry, Then spirit again coming through

(24:02):
bringing us something that we can workwith here. Yes, that guide that
kind of like drifting towards good,really gravitating towards things that are beneficial,
you know, not just making likeshortsighted decisions. Yeah. Absolutely. He's
not like I'm gonna collect cans forthe rest of my life, you know
what I mean. He's like,I'm gonna make a career and I've got

(24:22):
some training behind me. You know. It's very different than most of these
we see. So in nineteen eightyone, Joseph began working for the Postal
Service in Ridgewood, New Jersey.That's a band, right, isn't it
Postal Service? Yes, it is. It is. Okay, you're not

(24:47):
tripping, You're not making that up. I'm like, if we don't say
it, somebody's going to comment,like they didn't even talk about the Postal
Service the show, Like you know, so we said it. Okay,
it exists. We know you don'thave to message us thank you. So
over the course of the next nineyears, he would spend most of his

(25:07):
time working in the overnight shifts asa male sorder. His co workers would
try to basically politely describe him asthings like tense, quiet, sullen,
and ill tempered, and they saidthat he often wore army fatigues, boots

(25:30):
and a beret. I don't evenknow if this is worth saying, but
did you ever go to the targeton Ventura and DeSoto? Yeah, keep
going. Do you remember the cartguy that wore army fatigues boots and this
like really precariously positioned hat and hecollected carts for like gotta be like fifteen

(25:56):
years he acted. I mean hedid his job like he worked there.
No, he did his he workedthere, but he did his job like
it was the most important thing onthe battleship, you know, like this
was a life and death situation.Yeah, that's the first thing I envisioned
when I read the description of himat work, like the rest of my

(26:21):
life without thinking of that. Dude, do you remember him? Yeah,
like so vaguely, but like didhe work there? Did he not?
But you're right, it was likethe most important thing right now is this
cart between me and you? Right? Oh? Yeah? And I worked
there as in my late teens,and he definitely worked there. I can
confirm that he was on the payroll, but he almost looked like he didn't

(26:45):
because not only did he wear armyfatigues, but he he was always outside.
So you know, a target,you wear a red shirt, but
his was always pink because it wasso sun faded, and it just looked
like he didn't work there because hewas wearing a pink shirt and the rest
of it was army. Get up. I get it now. I totally

(27:07):
see how this happened. I totallysee this, and everyone works at Target,
right because I did too, right, Like that's just a rite of
passage, I feel like, butyeah, he was totally The image that
was commented in my head was justthis very intense guy that just treats everything
like it's just a countdown to thelaunch, you know, just t minus

(27:30):
five minutes. You know, everythingis just intense, and especially when you
are six foot two to one hundredand seven have pounds of working a night
shift too. You know. It'slike that's kind of not an imposing thing,
but it's like kind of sketch,you know, describing him as ill
tempered and soul you know, Imean, geez, yeah, all these

(27:52):
things in combination, Like I feellike I'm just going to say that for
the entire episode, Like any oneof these things not a big deal,
but all of these things together isjust like we know this is headed to
a bad place, and we justhave to say that thing. We say
all the time. If you seesomething, say something like, he's not
just the ill tempered guy, he'salso these ten other things that are concerning.

(28:15):
So say something to someone, youknow, let's make sure that we
get him to the right person tohelp him. Anyway. He's intense and
he's a big guy, and thisis he's got a lot of issues that
he's dealing with and they're not treated, and so it's just not going to

(28:36):
end well. Yeah, that's thekey, is that everything that's going on
is not treated. I hate whenpeople draw this direct link. There's quite
a few podcasts it'll just be like, oh, it's someone's mentally ill,
therefore they're murdering someone. And it'sjust that kind of thing drives me crazy.
We are never ever going to bethe podcast that says that kind of
bullshit. It's just all these thingsneed to be treated. People need help,

(29:02):
and people need someone to intervene aswell. If it's something that you
can't see yourself that you're not gettinghelp for. These are the type of
things where we're like, Okay,check on your great aunt that you haven't
heard from, while check on yourcousin that likes to draw all the weapons.
Maybe he's doing okay, you know, like we need to make sure
we're looking out for each other becauseit's totally okay to have mental health issues

(29:27):
and we need less stigma around thosethings. But we also need to make
sure that we're looking out for eachother and getting everybody the proper support and
treatment. That's all it's about.All these things in conjunction with each other
mean he needs help. He needssomeone to step in. You're here,

(29:48):
it's just not going to end wellbasically. So other people that work with
him recall his more extreme personality traits, saying that he was are you met,
nive, irrational, erratic, andconsistently displayed strange behavior. Even if

(30:10):
he could get along with just afew of his co workers, he never
got along with any of the supervisorsbecause he really clashed with authority figures and
he did not like to take direction. His colleagues thought that it was strange
that Joseph did martial arts. Throughouthis shifts. He would perform what was

(30:36):
described as death chants and generally exhibitedstrange behavior. Instead of doing his work,
he would practice his moves, kickingand punching the mailbags. A coworker
recalls quote, he was always walkingaround like some karate guy, chopping his

(30:59):
hands in the air. I thinkwe may have just solved the why he
was only in the Navy for twoyears question exactly, and he's punching in
the air. Yes, I meangoodbye exactly. And again, I hate
to just speculate on things. Ihate filling in the gaps where we don't

(31:19):
know concrete evidence of what happened.But I think it's safe to say,
like you said, problems with authorityand just doing martial arts while you're supposed
to be working not going to bea good fit for the Navy. I
can't assume that he took this onas a new trait. I'm assuming that
he did this before. It's prettysafe to say that that was one of

(31:42):
the factors at minimum to him beinglet go from the Navy. Yeah,
I think we saw that case.In nineteen eighty four, he was reprimanded
by postal supervisors for harassing coworkers.Although we actually have no further details on
the incident. The report is notpublic or anything, so we don't really

(32:05):
know beyond the fact that there washarassment. That same year, Joseph worked
with a man named Roy Edwards toinvest ten thousand dollars with his company that
specialized in precious medals and coins.He received dividends from his investments for a

(32:25):
short period of time, but eventuallythe checks just got smaller and smaller until
they just completely stopped altogether. WhenRoy Edwards company went out of business in
nineteen eighty five, Joseph demanded thathe get his ten thousand dollars back.

(32:47):
Joseph called repeatedly, and he evenactually showed up at the office demanding the
return of his money, but hehad no success. He really felt like
Roy was being evasive and he wasinfuriated that he would be so unethical by
avoiding him. Joseph was not justangry, but also disappointed and really sad

(33:16):
because he had this goal of buyinga house, and because he lost this
investment, that goal was either delayedor possibly just gone. I mean again,
he has a long term goal.It's interesting like he's working towards things.
Yeah, he's working towards something.He's got a job, he's living

(33:38):
somewhere, he's paying rent, he'sdoing the things that, as what we're
going to call a normal person,you're supposed to do, right, But
because of these little you know,imperfections, if you will, things somewhere
get a little misconstrued, and there'sissues with the way we function with relationships.

(34:00):
But in the black and white lifestuff, he seems to be doing
well. Apart from getting married andhaving kids. You know, you buy
a house, you do. Everythingelse is like ride in line, you
know, yeah, all the thingsthat if you're like me, you compare
yourself to other people, You're like, well, I haven't hit this milestonying

(34:21):
yet, so I don't really feellike an adult. He's kind of trying
to check those things off. Wedon't see him really having relationships and in
that sense, but I mean heis really trying to come home from the
Navy still be young. He's workingtowards getting a career, he's working towards
a house. These are these milestonesthat people really want to achieve, certain

(34:45):
things to kind of transition into responsibleadulthood. If you want to have that
kind of normalcy or whatnot, ifthat's your goal. That was his Not
everybody wants that. It's okay thatnot everybody wants that, but he definitely
was like, I'm following this path. The ninja spirit wants me to transition

(35:06):
to this type of average adulthood.So he was going for it, Yeah,
definitely, it's just the little youknow, his ability to relate to
people is where we're having problems exactly. And I think that if he did
have that ability to relate to people, he probably would have gone for their

(35:27):
relationship milestones like a wife and kidsand stuff like that. I think,
you know, well, yes thereis that theoretically, but instead, I
mean the things that were kind ofmore in his wheelhouse. He was achieving
those goals. Yeah. So onNovember fifteenth, nineteen eighty eight, Joseph

(35:51):
dressed in a ninja style costume witha mask and gloves and went to Roy
Edwards home in Montville, New Jersey. He forced his way in the home,
then instructed Roy and his two daughtersto all go into the master bedroom.

(36:13):
He had them sit on the bed, then put blindfolds on, and
then he handcuffed them. Just aftereight pm, Roy's wife Eileen, arrived
home. The door was locked,but before she could actually get her key
turned to unlock it, the doorsuddenly just opened and she saw a man

(36:36):
in front of her, dressed inall black, wearing a mask that would
be very scary, so terrifying tojust open the door to that. Yes,
you have a family, you knowthat your husband and kids are there.
I mean, this poor woman,I just can't imagine. Yeah,
he told her that her family wasupstairs and if she didn't want them to

(36:59):
get hurt, she needed to dowhat he said. Joseph took her upstairs,
where she saw her husband, alongwith her nine year old and seven
year old daughter, all blindfolded andhandcuffed. Joseph blindfolded and handcuffed her,
then demanded that Roy and Eileen givehim money. So they basically just started

(37:23):
pulling everything out both their wallets,anything they had around the house, and
it amounted to seven hundred dollars andthey told him this is all we have.
Joseph, knowing that he was owedten thousand dollars, was just completely
enraged by this and he just beganscreaming and getting violence, so he ended

(37:51):
up raping Eileen and then also theirtwo daughters. Unbelievable. Don't no go
straight to her. Absolutely, it'sjust monstrous. All these things, like
I said, we see leading upto this, and I just wish that
he would have gotten some sort ofhelp treatment and I don't know, trauma,

(38:16):
therapy, medication, whatever it took. I just wish that would have
happened, because these poor little girlsand this woman, my heart breaks for
them. It just didn't need tohappen. All these things happening together were
just one big giant red flag.During this process, Eileen's blindfold loosened and

(38:43):
she saw Joseph pacing, wearing amask and surgical gloves. She also saw
a gun that he had placed onthe floor. So what she did so
clever and just being right in themoment. She discreetly kicked it under the
bed so he couldn't see it.Nice. Yeah, it's just so smart,

(39:05):
just thinking on your feet, Justamazing. Joseph he just kept screaming,
you know, walking around, demandingmore money and pacing. But they
just didn't have any more. Imean, there was just nothing beyond that
seven hundred dollars they scraped together.So he raped Eileen again. Maybe this

(39:28):
time she'll give him the money.Man, right, Oh, there's just
no logic. There's no sense tobe made of anything. You can't make
sense of it. You gotta justkeep going. Just so upsetting. So
Roy said that he had valuable coinsdownstairs. He was just kind of trying
to get it to stop, youknow, and trying to spare his wife

(39:52):
and daughters. So he's like,I've got these valuables. It's not cash,
but at least it's something, soit'll get him to stop for a
minute, you know. So Josephgrabbed him and let him downstairs so that
they could go get these valuable coins. As he was leaving, he warned
Irene and the girls that if hesaw anything in the media about what happened

(40:16):
that night, he would come backto get them. When Joseph and Roy
left the room, Eileen got upand pushed this heavy dresser in front of
the door to block it. Thiswoman is just this is all of us,
all of us people that are truecrime aficionados. We know to do

(40:39):
these things, and this woman isclearly one of us. That's just like
thinking on her feet, trying to, like you, separate herself and her
attacker and really making all the rightmoves, which is incredibly smart and incredibly
lucky that she had that opportunity.Yeah, she's paying attention, she's getting
the blindfold loose, she's knocked andguns around. You know, she's growing

(41:01):
furniture. I mean, she's doingeverything the right way in this terrible situation
because there is no right way becauseno idea what's going on. But I
mean, damn yeah, she's gotsome wits about her, absolutely, Like
it's just so hard to have composureduring this kind of time and you just
go into this survival mode. AndI think it's truly amazing that she thought

(41:24):
to do these things. And Ijust really applaud her for that because I
know that it would be just almostimpossible to really keep your wits about you
and achieve those things to like ensureyour safety. Most people just aren't able
to do that, and it's it'sjust so sad. So it's a really

(41:46):
amazing and a testament to her thatshe was able to do that. After
they were out of the room,she then heard what sounded like a gun
being loaded then and her husband outsidescreaming he's going to kill me. Eileen
attempted to open the window in thebedroom, but she wasn't able to because

(42:10):
of her handcuffs, so, again, thinking on her feet, she instead
punched the window to break it.She began just screaming up a storm,
trying to get anyone's attention that shecould, and it just so happened that
there was a neighbor out who waswalking their dog and they heard Eileen screaming,

(42:32):
so they called the police. Josephheard the commotion upstairs, so he
ran back up, but of coursehe couldn't force his way into the bedroom
because she had already put that heavydresser in front of the door to block
it. Good job, so ofcourse he had no choice to just flee

(42:53):
the scene. When police arrived,they found Roy's body in the backyard,
lying face down with blood pooling aroundhis neck and shoulders. When the medical
examiner moved Roy's body, a bulletfell from a wound on his neck.

(43:15):
The autopsy determined that Roy had beenshot in the back of the neck,
which cut his spinal cord and disconnectedhis brain from his body. It is
believed that Roy was shot while hewas already laying on the ground. A
black hood was found on the floorin the den, and the gun Eileen

(43:38):
kicked under the bed was also recovered. Detectives also found a twenty two caliber
bullet shell, a flashlight, abox of ammunition, two pistol magazines,
and a syringe in a plastic wrapper. All of those things kind of makes

(44:00):
sense, but the syringe throws meoff. Yeah, somebody came here to
do something not good, right,I mean yeah, no matter what this
is showing, you know, premeditation, planning, you're bringing everything with you,
all of it. You've got somethingto do, and then you're bringing

(44:21):
a syringe of something clearly to sedateor you know, impair someone else on
top of a gun. What arewe doing? I mean, all those
things are typical, you know,robbery, assaults, murder, crime scene
evidence that's collected. We always findguns, ammunition, stuff like that.

(44:43):
It's pretty normal. But when yousee something like a syringe, to me,
it kind of elevates it, likethere's something more sinister. Of course
they didn't recover whatever the drug wasor whatever substance was going to be injected
into someone that was never found,but it really I don't know. All

(45:05):
I can think of is elevates itto this definitely more severe, more sinister,
more evil crime or intention. Right. Yeah. Since hundreds of investors
had lost money while dealing with RoyEdwards, detectives had trouble narrowing down the
suspect pool and they had no leadswhatsoever. Police never even looked at Joseph

(45:32):
as a suspect or even brought himin for questioning as one of Roy's former
clients. So basically, Joseph justwent back to life as usual. Okay,
he followed the case in the news, but it was like that was
it. He was like, heknew we got away with it. This
is it. This is the oneyou get one time. You know,

(45:53):
I talk about this all the time. You can get away with it once
they not find you. This isit. You're done. Now you lead
you know, the clean nose,the lifestyle, straight and narrow, right,
and you'll get away with it andyou know it and it's all good.
But as soon as you slip,something's coming back. Yeah, that's

(46:15):
the thing. I mean, hedefinitely. I think we could see this
all the time. Like if itjust seems like a random attack. So
often people can just get away withthese awful, horrific things, But when
you call attention to yourself or youcommit another crime, then that's where they

(46:35):
can start to piece things together.But like you said, it's like if
just one incident happens, a lotof times, detectives have a impossible time
figuring out who the suspect is andnarrowing that down and actually bringing someone to
justice, you know, And it'salways some small thread from like something stupid

(46:57):
like oh, a shoplifting incident,or I sped through a light and a
license plate, Oh it was acar that matched, you know, just
some detective suddenly sees a thread andstarts pulling it and everything un rebels,
and it's like, get away withit one time, that's it. And
when you get then you move outof the county, you know, you
go to the city like one countyover and you can live the rest of

(47:19):
your life and be fine. Courtit really sounds like you're trying to give
people like a playbook to get awaywith this stuff. It kind of does,
It kind of does, but it'sjust you know, I love stats,
I love patterns, and there's certainthings you just see again and again.
This is why right yes, placesevery those patterns where it's like,
you know a lot of people justcommit that one crime and it's fine,

(47:42):
but they're not able to stick toone. Once you get away with it.
I feel like it emboldens people wherethey're like, well I got away
with it once. I feel likethat's the thing people are like, may
as well do it again whenever theyget this sort of agitation or find another
enemy or whatever. You know,it's just impossible to keep your nose clean,

(48:06):
as you said, when you alreadygot away with it once you're like,
well I could do this again.Yeah. And if it wasn't for
a lot of like his mental healthissues, this probably would have just you
know, closed case or open casethat was just never closed and gone cold.
But because of his other issues,like you said, one separate isn't

(48:27):
an issue, but when you putall together, it is a figure that
you kind of start talking about.Yeah, once they look into him,
just sling like, oh, allthis stuff doesn't add up. This is
kind of problematic. If they broughthim in to interview him, I think
they may have looked a little bitdeeper. Like I think if they actually
interviewed him at this time, hewould have been elevated on the suspect list

(48:51):
because of all these you know,layers of factors that he had, like
I said, not just one thing, not stigmatizing mental health, just all
these one on top of the othercharacter witnesses people saying about his odd behavior,
it just wouldn't have been good thedetectives would have put it together pretty
quickly, but as it was,they just were like, oh, I

(49:15):
mean, he's got all these clientsthat are mad at him, so we
don't know who it could be.And it was just a cold case.
Although Joseph was able to avoid troublewith the law and evade suspicion about his
involvement in Roy's murder, he wasstarting to have more trouble at work.

(49:40):
In February nineteen ninety, joseph supervisorCarol Ott filed a report with the Ridgewood
Police Department accusing Joseph of harassment.Chief Frank C. Milliken did not specify
the type of harassment, but hedid say that it was not sexual harassment.

(50:05):
So, yeah, we don't knowmuch, but I you know,
I'm not going to speculate. Let'smove on. No, I'm sure it
was you know, a series ofconversations that piqued her interest, Like that's
all I gotta say. Yeah,made her uncomfortable or you know, because
he was just such an intense person. Maybe he's like hinted at violence,

(50:27):
or like because of his problem withauthority, you know, maybe he was
just really insubordinate to the point ofbeing very agitated with her and it made
her uncomfortable. Yeah, I thinkCarol caught on. I think Carols sums
up And honestly, this is justlike when you're you know, working a
place. This is semantics, likeyou have to complain about a person,

(50:47):
it's going to be a harassment claimright right right. So to me,
it's like, yeah, she caughton, she saw some questionable behavior and
reported it, and it's just kindof called harassment. Who knows what it
was, but this is the firsttipping, Especially as a supervisor, you've
got to assume that she's going tobe the person that he has a particular
problem with, definitely, of allpeople. After speaking with police, Carol

(51:14):
actually decided not to file a formalcriminal complaint against Joseph because she said that
she thought she should actually consult alawyer first. Wow. She told the
police that she would return after seekinglegal counsel, but then she just never

(51:34):
came back. Some co workers saidthat they could not recall any real incidents
in particular between Carol and Joseph,but many others said that they just knew
that the two of them did notget along. No big blow up,
no big incident, just the factthat they were constantly at odds with each

(51:57):
other. One for her mail sortersaid, quote, they were like oil
and water. They just didn't mix. He just had something against her.
A few co workers were called thatJoseph said he was going to quote get
Carol. A male delivery person namedPhilip Tortio said, quote, I asked

(52:22):
her a couple of months ago shewas having any problems with him, and
she just smiled and said no.Well, yeah, she filed a complaint,
and therefore, you know, they'regoing to talk to him. He's
going to see the error of hisways, that he was being a weirdo
or something, and everything will befine. Right, that's how this works.

(52:43):
Oh that's not how this Oh sorry, I thought when you complained at
work about stuff, that things happenand they get fixed. I was under
the impression, No, that's usuallynot what happens. There are so many
laws to protect people in the workplace, but usually they don't really work at
all. So yeah. Only acouple months after Carol first went to the

(53:08):
police station complaining of harassment, shedecided to start the process of getting rid
of Joseph for good, considering hisvarious behavior that was concerning to his coworkers,
and the fact that he was oftenengaged in other activities instead of doing

(53:30):
his work, she definitely had causeto pursue disciplinary action against him. Carol
requested that Joseph complete a quote fitnessfor duty exam, which is a procedure
in the Postal Service requiring that adoctor assess an employee. So this includes

(53:52):
both of physical and psychological evaluation todetermine if the individual is able to perform
the duty of their job. Josephflat out refused to submit to the fitness
for duty evaluation, and he wastherefore dismissed from his job. Thomas F.

(54:15):
Johnson, the chief inspector for thePostal Service in New Jersey, said,
quote when he declined to go forthe fitness for duty, he was
removed and there was no further contactwith him. Joseph was completely enraged by
his dismissal, and he lashed outby threatening retaliation, which his co workers

(54:38):
actually took seriously because, of coursemany of them feared that he was really
capable of making good on those threats. So you now, this is what's
fucked up, is that Carol's theone that's gonna like, quote unquote take
the bullet here, right because shemade the complaint. But all along these
co workers have known and they've beenscared him, and now they're all afraid

(55:00):
that they're going to be retaliated against. And it's like, why were you
filling up hey, work too?You know. Yeah, It's just it's
really the whole thing is so sadand tragic, and it's just if someone
would have spoken up in addition toCarol, if they would have spoken up
earlier, if they would have Idon't know, there's just so many ways

(55:22):
that people could have stepped in whenall this behavior and concerning stuff happened.
And I'm not just thinking of inthe workplace, but you know, just
people that knew him, or hisfamily or whatever, you know. I
mean, he obviously was having troublefunctioning at work, and I don't know,

(55:43):
I mean, just for Carol tobe the focus of this and to
take the heat for it, itwasn't her fault. There was so many
other people that were seeing this happenin front of them and didn't do anything.
But also it's not their fault,you know. I mean, I

(56:04):
wish that they would have said something. But I'm not blaming them, because
obviously nobody deserves to be retaliated againstand to have someone threatened them and all
these things. It's scary. Butat the same time, I just wish
that there had been more reports earlieron that something could have been done,

(56:27):
some sort of intervening on him.A union rep later said that they had
offered him assistance in fighting to keephis job, but Joseph actually declined the
help. And I don't know ifit's just that he felt so resigned to
the fact that like, oh,they're just going to get rid of me
no matter what or whatever, orif he was just so dedicated to like

(56:52):
being the victim in this situation,you know. I mean, I think
there's people that are real victims outthere, and I don't think he was
the victim him, Like this wasa normal procedure, that he wasn't doing
his job, there was reason todiscipline him, and he's just kind of
sitting back playing the victim about it, I think. And honestly, all

(57:13):
he had to do was show upto an evaluation. Yep. That's it.
Like just show up to an office, they ask you some questions and
honestly, like you can get throughthe I mean, you can talk your
way through that stuff, right,And it sounds like he did a good
job all along, you know,so he could have passed it. I
mean they're letting anybody do this stuff, you know what I mean. He

(57:36):
probably could have even passed the evaluationand everything would have been cool. He
just would have been pissed it,Carol, Sure we got that right.
But I mean he doesn't even wantto try, so, you know he
God helps those who helps themselves.Yeah, he definitely didn't want to put
any effort into it. It justwas like, no, fuck them.
You know, they want me toget evaluated. That's it. I'm out.

(57:58):
But at the same time, youknow, even if he didn't pass,
all they would do, most likelyis just have him to send him
to anger management or put him ina different branch something. So it really
wouldn't have been that big of adeal. They weren't saying, hey,
you're fired or were writing you up. They were saying, hey, we

(58:20):
want to make sure you're okay,do this evaluation. It doesn't feel good
to hear that news, I'm sure, but it's not the same thing as
you're fired. He chose to leavethe premises and say fuck everyone, say
he was going to retaliate and justnot come back when he was asked to

(58:40):
do this exam. That was hischoice, and then he denied help and
played the victim. Yeah, prettymuch. A Postal Workers union official named
Thomas Duane said that Joseph quote saidhe would take care of things in his
own way. For the next yearand a half, Joseph was unemployed and

(59:06):
spent much of his time isolating inhis bedroom. Not good. All of
these things are leading to just allbad. Again. This is an opportunity
for someone to intervene, like afamily member or something, you know.
And I know he's not talking tothem, but maybe his half sister could

(59:27):
reach out to his mom and belike, I think he needs a pep
talk you know something. Well,remember he's very very quiet. Yeah.
Joseph was still holding onto resentment andanger towards his former employer, and he
began to stockpile automatic weapons, grenades, and ninja swords while in isolation.

(59:52):
In early October nineteen ninety one,Joseph wrote a letter detailing his complaints about
working for the Postal Office, howhe felt he was treated unfairly and the
injustices he felt that he had experienced. He wrote that he wanted to get
revenge and vowed that his colleagues wouldpay. In the letter, he referred

(01:00:17):
to Pat Sheryl's nineteen eighty six postoffice mass murder of fourteen people and said
that he planned to carry out asimilar attack. It's insane that the whole
time he's in isolation, he's justplanning. Yeah, Oh, totally,
he's just making plans. It's obsession. You have all this free time,
so you can just obsess about gettingrevenge. Yeah. On the evening of

(01:00:43):
October ninth, nineteen ninety one,Joseph woke up shortly before midnight and got
dressed in his black military fatigues,combat boots, bulletproof vest, and a
ninja style mask. He packed upan arsenal of weapons, including an oozy,
a twenty two caliber machine gun withsilencer, several knives, hand grenades,

(01:01:08):
a homemade pipe bomb, a Samuraisword, and some homemade ether bombs.
In the very early hours of Octobertenth, nineteen ninety one, Joseph
rigged his front door with a homemadebomb with explosives and an ether base can

(01:01:28):
of auto starting fluid. It's prettymessed up because your sister owns this house
that is six bedrooms that you rentone, so there's obviously more people there.
Yes, Like if it's just yourhouse, just your apartment by yourself,
okay, take yourself out. Cool, you know obviously not the bomb
squad people. I'm sorry, butyou know what I mean, Like,
there's other people in this house,yes, and family, Yes, there

(01:01:52):
it is. Thank you for explainingwhat I'm trying to say. Six bedrooms,
it's your sister's place. Maybe niecesand nephews are there. We don't
know if there's other tenants there,but if you've got a six bedroom house,
you've got a lot of people.So yes, he just yeah,
this guy is just he's monstrous.I mean, he just does not care.

(01:02:13):
You're like ensuring that some other personthat isn't you is going to be
injured, absolutely some when you knowin that house you lived in for fourteen
years, that to me is almostlike a little more pathologically crazy. Yeah,
I mean yeah, someone that you'veknown for so long, that's part
of your family, Like you said, fourteen years, you just don't care.

(01:02:34):
You're willing to just murder them withthe bomb. Yeah, it's very,
very disturbing. He then left homeand headed to his former supervisor,
Carol Ott's home. When he arrived, he snuck into the home and found
Carol's fiance, Cornelius cast In Junior, in the basement reck room, watching

(01:02:59):
TV. He crept up behind himand shot him execution style in the back
of the head. Joseph then headedupstairs, where he found Carol Lot in
the bedroom wearing only a T shirt. He pulled out his samurai sword and

(01:03:19):
began swinging it at her, initiallyleaving a deep wound coming down from her
left shoulder. Carol stumbled backward andtried to block or catch the sword,
creating defensive wounds on her arms andher hands, but ultimately Joseph just kept
swinging and thrusting the sword until shedied of her injuries. Before he left,

(01:03:46):
Joseph decided to ensure that she wasdead by thrusting the sword into her
back three times. There were nosigns of sexual assault. Joseph then left
Carol's home and headed to the Ridgewoodpost Office just before two am. When

(01:04:10):
he arrived, he entered through theback door of the post office, where
he shot and killed two mail handlers, fifty nine year old Joseph Vander Powell
and sixty three year old Donald mcnought. At two fifteen am, a mail
truck driver named Marcello Collado pulled upto the rear loading dock of the post

(01:04:33):
office with a truck full of mail. On most nights, the bay doors
would be open in anticipation of hisarrival, but on this night, Marcello
saw that the bay doors were closedand the lights were all off. Marcello
just immediately knew that something was wrongbecause normally the overnight workers would come to

(01:04:59):
the back bay door to help himand everything would be open and ready to
go, so he could unload thetruck as soon as he pulled up.
Yeah, there are a time constraints, so like be there, open the
door, get the mail out.We gotta go, right, I mean,
I'm sure he's going to multiple locationsto deliver to these local post offices.
So yeah, right on schedule twoam. You know what to do,

(01:05:21):
Get it done quickly and I'm outto the next post office. So
when he saw this, even thoughit was weird, he was just like,
Okay, something must be going on. He just decided to park it
like normal, get out and walktowards the basement of the post office to
just see what was going on.Marcello was shocked when he was walking in

(01:05:45):
and came face to face with aman wearing a gas mask wielding a gun.
Joseph fired a shot at Marcello butmissed, so Marcello sprinted out the
back of the bill, gotten histruck and drove to the police station a
half mile away. At about twotwenty am, Sergeant Robert Kay and Officer

(01:06:11):
Peter Tookle went to the post office, where they also encountered the gunmen.
Joseph began throwing explosives at them,so they decided to retreat and wait for
backup. Wow. Just he's likejust throwing them into like a whole scene.
You know, it's in your head, it's a movie. It's yeah,

(01:06:32):
it's not just guns, which arescary enough. I mean he's throwing
explosives. I mean he's just outfrom maximum damage and it's terrifying. Yeah.
Within minutes, the building was surroundedby police officers. By this point,
more employees were showing up for work, but police, of course had

(01:06:56):
to stop people from approaching the building. From about three fifteen am until just
after six am, officers were attemptingto get a hold of Joseph by calling
the phone inside the post office,but even though they were calling just over
and over again for hours, Josephnever answered. Just before six thirty am,

(01:07:19):
the SWAT team entered through the sidedoor and attempted to negotiate with Joseph.
So after a four hour total standoffand half an hour of SWAT team
negotiations, he surrendered and the SWATteam emerged with Joseph apprehended at around six

(01:07:41):
fifty am. No one expected that, not at all. I was like,
Oh, he's going to blow upthe whole building. I mean you
just think, I mean, thisis all bad enough, but you think
it's going to get worse. Ican't believe that they apprehended him without even
more. Yeah. He was wearinga gas mask and bulletproof vest and armed

(01:08:05):
with a nine millimeter handgun, atwenty two caliber gun with silencer, Samurai
sword, three hand grenades, andsome homemade bombs. Joseph was arrested and
taken into custody. Police really assumedthat he was prepared to die that morning,

(01:08:26):
and that he planned to either killhimself or basically commit suicide by cop,
but instead he changed his mind atthe last second. Detectives had gone
to Joseph's apartment at about three am, but Joseph's cousin, Carmen, who
was his landlord, refused to letthem in without a warrant. Again another

(01:08:54):
hero from the story, because typicallyyou would just be like, you know,
anything that we can get, anyinformation on this guy would be helpful.
In a lot of cases, youwant to have immediate access to whatever's
going on in their dwelling. Buton this occasion, we know that there's

(01:09:15):
bombs. Hers saying no, notwithout a warrant is saving lives. You
know, at the time that thishappened, where they first show up at
the house, police didn't know thatJoseph had several homemade explosives in his possession,
so they really wouldn't think to takecertain precautions or send in bomb experts

(01:09:38):
to his house. The fact thatCarmen delayed the police by asking for a
warrant just ended up saving lives,since, of course they'd realize during his
capture that they actually needed to bewary of explosive devices. His cousin Carmen
Johnson said quote, if I didwhat the police asked me to do and

(01:09:59):
I gave them the key, wewould all be dead. Now. Okay,
thank you, Carmen, But don'tact like you planned right, given
her credit after the fact, comeon, yeah, exactly. Oh it
is because of me, you see, like stop it. When Carol didn't
show up to work, police decidedthat they should do a welfare check.

(01:10:26):
The problem was that, because Josephwas clearly partial to using explosives, they
feared that her home and his apartmentcould both be rigged with bombs. During
questioning, Joseph admitted that he hadin fact booby trapped his own apartment,
so police were aware of what theywere walking into. Both his and Carol's

(01:10:50):
homes were cordoned off and carefully examinedbefore police proceeded to begin their searches.
Care Girl's home was clear, butas police described, at Joseph's home quote,
there was an accelerant with gunpowder.It was wired with fishing line to

(01:11:10):
the door. If you opened upthe door, it would go off.
Once they were inside the apartment,detectives recovered many weapons, along with pictures
of Joseph dressed in ninja attire andholding weapons. They also recovered two handwritten
letters in which Joseph called himself aquote warrior who was likely to die quote

(01:11:38):
in combat with great honor. Iwonder if that's how he saw this whole
thing. It was like us orlike me versus them, and at some
point the post office and his coworkersbecame the enemy. And so when you
know, I mean, who knows, right, we can't put logic on
this, but like so it waslooked at as like a battle, feel

(01:11:59):
like a war. So the bombs, the multiple guns, you know,
the samurai swords, the extreme violencethat it's war, it's wartime absolutely.
I mean, I think he definitelycreated this scenario in his mind where he
was wronged, the injustice was doneto him, and it was the right
thing to do to seek out revengeand to avenge the wrong that was done

(01:12:26):
to him. You know, Ithink he did create that split of like
he was the victim. He was, you know, the had the bad
luck, and they were all thefortunate people and the people that took advantage
of him. So it was theright thing to act on that and hold
them accountable. Basically, that's inhis brain. I think what was going

(01:12:49):
on. One of the letters thathe wrote talked about his anger at Roy
Edwards, which suddenly only made detectivesrealized that they should look for evidence to
connect him to Roy Edwards murder thatwas still unsolved. At this point.

(01:13:09):
They didn't even know they were goingto be closing up cases. Nope,
not at all. During the searchof his home, they found handcuffs and
a flashlight just like the ones foundat the Edwards home after the murder.
They also found the same type ofsyringe that was recovered at the Edwards crime

(01:13:33):
scene. Joseph had also kept twonewspaper clippings that were about the attack on
the Edwards family. But I thoughtif you saw it in the media,
you were going to go back andkill him, right whatever, Yeah,
just talking shit, He's just talkingout of his ass. Joseph was charged

(01:13:56):
with murder, attempted murder, kidnapping, possession of automatic weapons and explosives,
and his bail was set at onemillion dollars. As the charges were read
by Judge Charles R. De Guisi, Joseph shook his head and smiled.
He screamed out, quote, it'swrong. I didn't shoot so the judge

(01:14:20):
ordered him to be silent. Afterthe murders, the Ridgewood post Office flag
flew at half mast and posted alarge sign thanking the community for their concern,
while also requesting that they not questionedthe postal workers about the killings.

(01:14:43):
And you know, if they hadto put that sign up, there was
just so many people coming to thepost office asking did you know him?
What happened? Were you here?And that's so awful and traumatic for people
to relive, you know. Yeah, I just can't believe that people were
that insensitive to poke and proud atthese people that just went through such an

(01:15:05):
extreme tragedy. It's just awful.After the attack, many co workers looked
back at Joseph's behavior in a newlight. A postal supervisor named Anthony Laprinza
described Joseph as quiet and strange andsaid, quote, you knew something like

(01:15:28):
this was going to happen, whichjust again begs the question why not intervene
or speak up earlier? Yeah.In April nineteen ninety three, while they
were in the midst of jury selection, the prosecutor offered a plea agreement which
would allow Joseph to avoid the deathpenalty. In exchange for a life sentence.

(01:15:51):
Joseph agreed to the terms, andboth sides began preparing to proceed with
the plea agreement. But moments beforethey were all preparing to sign the documents,
Joseph had an outburst and suddenly toreup all the paperwork. He really

(01:16:14):
is just at every turn, he'sdoing whatever's the worst for him and other
people around him, of course,not making light of that. With the
plea off the table, the stateproceeded with the trial as a capital case.
Joseph's lawyers attempted to prove he wasinsane and claimed that he did not

(01:16:35):
know that what he was doing waswrong. The defense brought in a psychiatrist
to testify that Joseph heard voices,had delusions, believed in his own reality,
and was a paranoid schizophrenic. Thedoctor believed Joseph was legally insane at

(01:16:59):
the time of the murders and didnot know that what he was doing was
actually wrong, so he couldn't becriminally responsible. During the psychiatrists examination,
Joseph said that he was guided bywhat he called again a ninja spirit.
The state psychiatrists confirmed that Joseph didindeed have auditory delusions, but he said

(01:17:26):
that his diagnosis was skitzoid personality disorderand he was not legally insane. That
tends to I mean, it makesa little more sense, you know,
the paranoid schizophrenia versus schitzoid. Thefact that he's able to have such a
normal life on one hand, right, and then also just have these,

(01:17:49):
as I said earlier, imperfections,and it makes more sense with schizoid.
Yeah, So that to me actuallymakes much more sense. I mean,
you know, it's hard to tell. I am not a doctor, but
just it tracks better, right,Right, he knows what, he knew
what he was doing, that itwas wrong. He did absolutely, he

(01:18:13):
knew he had premeditated. I mean, there was just a lot of thought
that went into this. He knewthat he was avenging the wrongs that happened
to him, and he knew thatthat wasn't okay to do to murder people,
but he did it anyway. Hewasn't that detached from reality to just
not know that this was not okayto take someone's life. Yes, in

(01:18:39):
cross examination, the States psychiatrists didadmit that if his schizoid personality disorder were
severe, Joseph would have difficulty atwork and be described by his coworkers as
exhibiting concerning behavior. In nineteen ninetytwo, Joseph was found guilty of both

(01:18:59):
the attack on the Edwards family andthe slaying of the Ridgewood Post Office employees.
Joseph was convicted of burglary, robbery, kidnapping, sexual assaults, and
murder, then sentenced to death.While in prison, Joseph was part of
a lawsuit refuting the constitutionality of thestate's death penalty, but he would never

(01:19:26):
make it to his hearing in frontof the New Jersey Supreme Court. In
September of nineteen ninety six, onlytwo days before his scheduled hearing, he
died of natural causes. Well,he caused his own death naturally, right,
Like, I mean what two daysbefore? Yeah, that's the timing

(01:19:50):
of that is really incredible, unbelievable. In fact, Oh my god.
Okay, So that's the story ofJoe Seph M. Harris. As soon
as this guy wears the beret towork, the day that happens is the
day that I get the paperwork.Yeah, and then when when it's full

(01:20:13):
fatigues and a beret, we're makingphone calls, bad combo, just bad
calling, corporate aware lines. We'redoing it all, you know. I
don't know if just the outfit wouldmake me immediately call authorities or get every
someone involved, but I would definitelybe like, hey, dude, so
like, how is your childhood?You want to talk about your parents?

(01:20:36):
Maybe just kind of dig a littlebit and then see what's there. You
know. See this is where peoplesee the yin two ore Yang. You're
like, You're like, let mehave a talk with this guy, And
I'm just like, hey, motherfucker, what's up with your beret? Beret
equals murderer. Well, I justin Courtney's brain, it's a look like,

(01:20:58):
no, it is a look areyou kidding? It's fine, but
murderer? But make it fashion.But the whole exactly, But the whole
thing, when you put it allin perspective, the whole thing, Each
thing on its own is not scaryas a total. It is scary,
yes, absolutely, It's just allthese things and I feel like a man

(01:21:21):
sometimes I feel like I'm saying repetitive, you know, but it's like it
is just so easy to just combineall these things and have it escalate.
You know, it's if you couldtake that one thing, break it down,
and treat it, it's not abig deal. If you can take

(01:21:42):
this trauma and work on a therapistand get some help. If you've got
this skitzoid or schizophrena, you canwork with a psychiatrist and therapist and get
that treatment. All these things.You know, if you are having trouble
being social, there's ways to kindof just confront that and work it being
better around people. You know,all these things we call them, Like

(01:22:05):
in my household, we call themprojects. Like, you know, my
anxiety is a project I have,you know, like I have to work
on it and try and be morecalm and confront certain things and just kind
of deal with it. That's myproject, you know. And everybody has
these things in one way or another. And these people that commit crimes,

(01:22:27):
these murders that we talk about oftenhave so many of these projects, but
it's not impossible to really address them. I mean, I can't imagine being
in his position where he was bornin a jail and he's got all these
siblings and this instability in his homelife. But that said, there's plenty
of people that come from a backgroundthat's similar or the same or challenged or

(01:22:53):
whatever that turn into amazing, productive, wonderful, healthy, emotionally well people.
It just takes a little bit ofwork to get there, you know,
and he just didn't have the typeof resources or people to step in
or do the work or all thatstuff. But everything combined is just it

(01:23:16):
was a dangerous combo, especially untreated. You know what else, there's actually
a lot here also that you know, he was okay, let's be real,
like he was falling apart in someways. He's losing his job,
but he was able to at leastshow up for work, you know,
like we were saying, like theblack and white stuff. You know,

(01:23:38):
he's got that on paper, goalachievements, you got it. So then
he loses his job because it doesn'twant to do the evaluation. And what
this really speaks to is what isolationcan also do to your mind. And
you know, we know a lotof people are quarantined and isolated right now,
and you know people will tell you, oh my god, I feel

(01:23:59):
like I'm losing my mind this andthat, and those are people that don't
have pre existent you know, pornin a prison to a month, right,
all these issues to begin with familyissues and mental health and even people
that are very well and healthy.You're struggling in isolation, yes, And
then you throw in you know,six months of solid isolation, plus the
obsession with violence of weapons and thetraining behind it in the Navy, and

(01:24:24):
just all these different little projects hehad going on, and the fact that
he got away with murder once before. It emboldens him. And I really
think that it would have happened eventually, but that isolation sped that up.

(01:24:44):
You're right, But I would alsoadd betrayal. It's just the anger from
being betrayed, plus just being athome, unemployed, by himself, quiet,
not really having any human contact.I mean, just like you said
that was it just festering sitting athome thinking about how he's been wronged.
The injustice of it all. Itall stems back to this bitch, Carol.

(01:25:08):
And realistically it's you know, turnthe mirror on yourself. But he
can't. He's like mentally incapable.So therefore it's the injustice, it's the
anger, it's the revenge. Yeah, definitely, the anger he has and
the untreated issues that he struggles withwith his mental health made him not be
able to look at his own partin it to not be able to look

(01:25:29):
at what was still in his powerto fix, you know, because I
mean, if this same scenario happenedto someone who is healthy, or if
I put myself in his shoes orwhatnot, I would either submit to the
evaluation or take action against the postoffice using that union rep. He had

(01:25:50):
recourse, He had things that hecould do, but he refused, you
know. And then there's things thatyou could fix within yourself, like one
you're unemployed, look at yourself andthink, Okay, what can I do
at my job next time so thisdoesn't happen again. But he wasn't able
to do that, just because ofthe things he struggled with and the fact

(01:26:13):
that they were untreated, undiagnosed,and just sitting there, like you said,
festering. He wasn't capable of seeinghis own part in it. He
just went deeper and deeper into theobsession of what other people had done wrong
and how he was the victim andhow he needed to get back at them.
Yeah, in essence, I thinkthat kind of sums up most of

(01:26:36):
the postal attacks. I feel likepeople are choosing to when someone goes postal
it seems like a recurring theme thatsomething happens just a hiccup of disciplinary action,
a firing of whatever it is,or just overwhelmed with the stress of

(01:26:58):
work and extra work load, justa list a myriad of things that could
happen at any workplace, and thepostal workers you see time and time again
just completely are unable to see itas anything but betrayal. And I've got
to get back at my employer andmy coworkers. Yeah, and the other

(01:27:21):
the other angle of that too isthat most of them have a preexisting family
history of something like a schizoid schizophrenia, bipolar mania disorder that is completely untreated.
That's another angle of this is thatit's people that would probably have a

(01:27:45):
problem anyway, but then put inthis high stress situation, they don't know
how to cope. There's no selfsoothing. And you know, when this
term comes into prominence in the eightiesor whatnot, the conversation around mental health
is just next to nothing or nothingat all. So of course it seems

(01:28:08):
like people are just snapping, right, But it's like there's all these mental
health issues that are so treatable andso able to be worked on that people
can have these resources and when theycan talk about them, they can whatever
it is, group therapy, therapy, psychiatry. It couldn't have been a
worse time for these types of thingsto happen. You know, these people

(01:28:30):
that are struggling with being overstressed orfeeling like they're victimized or whatever could have
gotten the opportunity today to really havemore dialogue about their mental health, get
a therapist, get on medication,whatever it is. But back then when
this term was invented, I mean, it was just like, oh,

(01:28:50):
let's call it a going postal.Let's not talk about the fact that they
have these mental health challenges that couldbe actually addressed. Yeah, anyways,
gonna be this is gonna be kindof an interesting one because they're all so
different and so similar. Yeah,there's a lot of through lines where you

(01:29:11):
know, you could just pull thatthread and you're like, oh, yeah,
the same thread from the Lost one, same thread as this one or
this one or this right. Itwas just very eye opening. Yeah,
So that's our very first letter pepisode for Going Postal. Yeah, and
at this point I will go aheadand insert an ad for our Patreon episode

(01:29:33):
on David Lynn Scott the Third alsoknown as the Ninja Killer. When I
was going through this episode, Iwas like, wait a minute, this
is just like David Lynn Scott,just like it's so many ways. Yeah,
trauma, childhood, I mean thetraumatic childhood on another level of trauma,

(01:29:55):
going right into ninja's and the Ninjaspirit guides me all of it.
Yeah, I was there, Iwas in it. So many similarities.
Yeah, absolutely, that's a greatPatreon episode to check out. And speaking
of which, before we get outof here, if you want to get
on our Patreon and get bonus episodes, ad free episodes and perks, then

(01:30:16):
definitely join patreon dot com slash MurderDictionary podcast that's linked in our show notes.
And before we get out of here, we want to thank those new
people that are on our Patreon,Casey, Charlie Amy and Eke Ivy who
increased their pledge. So thanks youguys, Thank you. We appreciate you

(01:30:40):
so much. So before we getout of here, if you want to
get some updates on our new episodes, Patreon episodes, memes, whatever true
crime stuff is coming out on TVor breaking news, definitely check out our
Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.We are Murder Dictionary podcast pretty much everywhere.

(01:31:01):
If you want to read more aboutgoing postal and about Tonight's case,
then check out the links in ourshow notes. There's also links for mental
health resources, domestic violence resources,LGBTQ stuff. There's just a lot of
links in there. If there's someresources that you need for yourself or someone

(01:31:23):
you love, and if you wantt shirts, phonecases, mugs, all
that stuff, then head over toour thread list, which is linked in
the show notes. And I thinkthat's pretty much it. You got anything
else to add, I know we'vebeen watching a lot of true crime TV.
Yeah, Well on Netflix we've gotChris Watts and the Shenan Watts,

(01:31:46):
his wife whom he murdered in Colorado, that came out on Monday, I
believe last week. It was reallyreally good, and it was heavily focused
on Shenan, which I appreciate,instead of being only about Chris, which
I feel like so much of thecoverage was just about Chris. It really

(01:32:08):
showed so much about who Shenan wasas a person and in her own words,
and a lot of just things thatyou haven't seen in the coverage of
the story. So I highly recommendit. You know, I'm really going
to be looking forward to the inevitablelike six part doc in a couple of
years when they really break that case. And you know how it is now

(01:32:29):
with at the Netflix and the sixparts right right, So I want to
know more about the mistress. Theywere only together for two months, girl,
Yeah, so short, what thehell went down? So yeah,
there's a lot of questions there.Well, we have to do like a
Patreon on this or something, becauseI have a lot of feelings. Yes,
I have to be honest. Sowhen I saw the footage of the

(01:32:49):
mistress being interviewed or interrogatable, interviewed, let's say police interviewed, there's something
about her that's very her formative.And I know we talk about secondary victims,
and I believe that she was liedto. I believe that she was
taken advantage of, and she isone of those kind of peripheral victims because

(01:33:12):
she didn't know what was going on. But her interview just seems so rehearsed
and like she was acting, andit was really bothersome to me. It
was kind of disturbing, and Ibelieve her and I feel bad for her,
so much of me feels that.But there's just this little voice in

(01:33:33):
the back of my head that's justlike, something's up with this. There's
more to this, you know,something in the milk ain't clean. Yeah,
and you know what it's At firstyou want to look at her like
an amber fry, but there's somethingthere. I know what you mean.
It's intangible, but there's something there. So that's why I'm really looking forward

(01:33:56):
to the HBO or the Netflix specialin the next few years. They'll let
us. Right, Yeah, there'sonly other right, the only other thing
I could think of was on Mondayon ID there was a two hour It's
called OJ and Nicole and American Tragedy, I think, and it's mostly Nicole's
diaries and Nicole's letters and all theevidence she had gathered against him before,

(01:34:17):
you know, the eighty nine beating, the all the different you know,
the police came and you know,founder in the yard cry this, but
they didn't do anything. All thesedifferent you know, the nine one one
tapes. If you're triggered with youknow, domestic violence and things, not
the one for you. But ifyou are very deep into OJ, some
good interviews we haven't seen, andinterviews from or information from her perspective,

(01:34:43):
which is really important because we don'treally see that a lot. So I
haven't seen it yet, but Imean that's the thing that makes it to
me unique and important is that itreally portrays this picture of what she was
going through and tells it her perspectivein her voice, as opposed to just
reliving the same old details of thecrime from did he do it? Or

(01:35:10):
didn't eat do it? You know, it's it's really looking at her and
her struggle and what she was goingthrough that I am eager to check out.
Yeah, it's good. I thinkyou'll like it. Yeah, that's
a court's recommendation corner right now.Yeah, there's a few more. I
just I got to like write itall down. You gotta rate it in

(01:35:31):
because there's so much true crime contentout there now that everybody's trying to jump
on it and capitalize. So yeah, it's you can't even keep up.
But no, not at all.Oh I was going to end it,
but now I'm thinking I've been watchingthe vow and it's pretty good. Jesus.
Yeah, Okay, that's going tobe an episode on its own,

(01:35:54):
right, Yeah, we got totalk about that or Yeah, something,
because this whole thing is just there'sso much, there's so many angles to
go out on this one. It'sso fascinating, and the perspective from the
people that survived it, and it'sjust I am really wrapped up in it.
It's you know, of course,you know, if you're a true

(01:36:14):
crime person, anything involving cults isjust like, to me, one of
the things that I find most fascinating. I'm just drawn to it and I
got to know everything, and soto hear the perspective of the people that
went through it, and man,it's just so sad and so unbelievable that

(01:36:36):
these people were just moving forward andfollowing this person and just didn't see it
coming, you know what I mean. It's always interesting to hear that perspective
of someone that was in it anddidn't know they were in it, you
know. Yes, And also youknow, the angle of self help groups

(01:36:57):
can really lead to some crazy shit. Oh yeah, and you know,
just the money talks. Also,it's crazy how a lot of things just
come back to like money and sexand power, you know, always,
which makes me want to bring upthe fact that at some point they need
to do a documentary on whatever thefuck Jared Letto is doing. Oh my

(01:37:17):
god, what is going on?Jordan Catalano cannot be the way of the
Truth and the Light. I justdon't believe that. I mean, he's
just painting himself as the Jesus,it seems, I don't Is it a
path to salvation cult? I don'tknow what exactly. No, but maybe

(01:37:38):
we should do the doc. Ithink we should. That's a great idea.
Let's do it. So yeah,let's let's get going and start working
on that. That's what we're gonnado with the rest of our night,
right, Okay, sounds good.While we're working on that, we hope
that you guys have a wonderful weekand we'll see you next episode for the

(01:38:01):
next letter P for going postal,and we hope you have a great week.
See you next time. See youbye.

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