Going Postal: Rosaire Bilodeau

Episode Transcript
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(00:40):
Hello, and welcome to Murder OurDictionary Podcast. I'm Brianna and that is
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(01:03):
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(01:48):
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(02:13):
And I think that's pretty much it. You know where all the links are.
It's the same thing every week.So we can jump into our next
going postal case for letter P.This is an oldie, this is old
timey. Yes, we are fondof the old timey cases. This is
a case where what you see isnot what you really are seeing. Things

(02:38):
aren't always what they say, thankyou. Things are not always as they
appear with this case. Yeah,and you cannot always trust what people say.
It's that simple, very much.So, Yes, this is one
of those cases where you just whatpeople account for as their life experience is.

(03:00):
You know, if you're a genuineperson, you take them at their
word, and this one you justcan't. There are some people that are
definitely out there to lie about whatthey're going through, definitely, But we
don't want to spoil it because Ihad I had a moment sitting just oh
my god, yeah, shocked myself. So I would like for the other

(03:25):
people here with us to experience thesimilar thing. I don't know, I
just want you to be excited.Shock and awe, shock and awe.
I want to shock and aw you. So this week we are talking about
Roserere Billadox, who was born inCentral Falls, Massachusetts, on September sixth,

(03:46):
eighteen ninety six. You heard thatright, eighteen ninety six. We
haven't had one this old in aminute. It's been, yeah, quite
a while. This is one ofthe oldest old timey cases we've done.
I think I love it. I'mso exciting. So his parents were tell

(04:06):
Us four Billadoux and Orleie Picard.He had two sisters named Rosalie and Marie.
We don't really know too much abouthis childhood, and that is one
of the downfalls of these older cases. A lot of times the news reports

(04:26):
and the newspaper clippings that you canfind are just very lacking in background information.
So I'm sorry we don't have toomuch about how he grew up.
But it seemed like they were kindof a normal family that started off in
the US and then left. Buthe just had a couple of sisters his

(04:46):
parents, and they were a close, tight knit family. From what I
saw, that was it. Yougot it. So Rosare was in the
military, during World War One,and he spent most of his time serving
in France. He had said thatbeing in combat was extremely difficult, and

(05:08):
he had difficulty really coming home andreadjusting and recovering. When he got out
of the military. He often spokeof the muddy trenches and the searing pain
of the noxious gas used against theirtroops by the enemy. Rosaire was highly
affected by his service in the war, and from the symptoms that he would

(05:32):
exhibit afterwards, he more than likelywould have been diagnosed with PTSD today.
By his own accounts and his ownstruggles and the things that he said he
was feeling, it just seems likethat would be very probable that he would
have postwar PTSD, And and everybodythat knew him seemed to know this.

(05:58):
It was common knowledge that he hadhad a very rough time during the war
and when he came back it washard. He openly talked about it all
the time, no issues, justyou know, oh, I was in
the war and this is what happenedto me, and it was kind of
shocking, but you know, peopleunderstood it, and so that was roseir.
And yeah, at the time,of course, people would understand too.

(06:21):
There's a lot of sympathy for peoplethat are fighting. Yeah, and
I bet that, like his storieswere probably you remember that stuff, and
then you know, oh, okay, that's the guy you know, Oh
wow, hey, how you doing, Roseir. You know, like you
probably have an affinity for this personafter being so vulnerable with you, you
know, you get a relationship evenif he's just the guy walking down the

(06:43):
street. You remember that. Yeah. I mean, he really seemed to
have a lot of friends too.So a lot of the people that he
was telling this to, you know, may have been veterans themselves or just
knew how horrific going through wartime is. So he's talking to people that are
very receptive to this, and maybethey didn't have the language of what PTSD

(07:04):
was and really the awareness about mentalhealth, but they had a lot of
compassion for soldiers, you know,and so that was a big part of
his identity to a lot of hisfriends that he met after serving. Yes.
Unfortunately, during this time, anxietyand mental health challenges were often highly

(07:29):
stigmatized, and you often see itreferred to in the media as mental derangements
when they're talking about rose Are.After the war, he returned to Quebec,
and settled into his neighborhood, livingthe quiet life. Rosere spent most
of his time alone or with hissisters and their extended family members. He

(07:58):
made some new friends, but hedid not get married or really have any
big life altering experiences in his twenties. And I'm definitely not the person that's
like you have to hit all thesemilestones, especially today, but back in
the day, it was a littlebit rare that he went through his twenties,
never got married, had children.It kind of stood out that he

(08:20):
was a single guy at this time. Definitely stood out. And you know,
again, why is that guy livingwith his parents and his sisters like
his old maid sisters, right,why is it living with them? Still?
Like just he can move out,he can do this or that.
And again it would always go backto, well, you know, he

(08:41):
had a really hard time in thewar, right, and it was looked
at sympathetically like he wasn't a loser, He's a victim. Yes, yeah,
everybody was very sympathetic to him.Was just like, well, you
know, maybe you think that whyis he living with his parents, but
you don't know his story and whathe's been through. People definitely stood up
for him. Yes, I believethat they would become protective of him after

(09:03):
that. Yep. In nineteen twentysix, when he was thirty six years
old, Rosia got a job asa letter carrier for the Quebec Post Office.
He found that the structure and theroutine of just delivering the mail actually
helped improve his mental health. Heseemed like that kind of person that would

(09:28):
just thrive in that environment. Definitely, working for the post office gave him
structure and it filled the void ofthe regimented existence that he'd really become accustomed
to in the military. Early onin his career with the post office,
he seemed to be thriving and hewas doing well at work. After some

(09:54):
time passed, his stress levels beganto increase and he actually started to fee
like the work wasn't as fulfilling andcalming as he initially had felt. I
wonder if it became you know,once it became routine, instead of doing
well with it, it's like almostscary, you know, it's like the

(10:16):
same every day, the same,the same. Some people that might freak
him out after a while. Yeah, maybe there was some boredom that set
in, or a lack of challenges. You know, if it's just the
same thing every day, day andday out, there's just no difference.
Things end up like Groundhog's Day,right Maybe So, I don't know.

(10:37):
I'm thinking maybe it was just amatter of like the drudgery got to him.
Even if initially the structure was good, it ended up being a bad
thing. Yes, Rosaire's untreated traumawas becoming a lot more overwhelming for him

(10:58):
and it started to be more noticeablein his interactions with co workers and customers.
In nineteen thirty two, after sixyears on the job, he was
laid off. And we don't knowif there was any incident report or something.
It just sounded like overall people werebeginning to have problems with him.

(11:24):
Employees, customers, everybody was justkind of not getting along with him,
budding heads or noticing odd behavior.But there's nothing that is just a big
blowout or like we saw last week, like he was never carded out on
a mail cart. You know,it was just things really weren't working.
His attitude wasn't that great, andit's time for him to move on.

(11:48):
Yeah, there was no great giantevent. It was just, you know,
over a period of time, andit was always his mental health was
deteriorating. You could see it,and that a lot the co workers were
experiencing this with him. And Ithink it was you know, at this
time, we don't have all theseHR laws and things like that. It's

(12:09):
just easier to oh, we'll justlay them off and he'll be fine.
He'll be able to just hang outat home or whatever, and he can
treat himself however he needs to be. He won't have to worry about a
job anymore. Yeah, absolutely,you're right. I mean people aren't protected.
Workers really weren't protected, and soanybody that was experiencing some sort of

(12:30):
challenges you could find an excuse tomake that challenge or reason for dismissal.
Yeah, and at this time,it's like you can lose your job and
become like a shoeshine boy. Imean there's not I don't know what else
he's really gonna do. Papers,paper out with my newsies. I always
talk about newsies whenever we talk aboutlike back East in like the late eighteen

(12:52):
nine, you know, early earlynineteen hundred stuff. At all. I
have a problem. You have anewsies problem. I guess I just I
can see it all in my headevery time. It's just yeah, But
I mean that's the thing is hecould find some other job. The post
office was more like a career,so it was a bigger loss. Yeah,

(13:15):
for him, it was just itwasn't working out and so they'll let
him go. So although of course, like I said, he wasn't necessarily
happy with working at the post office, being let go was really upsetting to
him, and it was difficult forhim to kind of hold himself together after

(13:35):
he lost his job. Rosa feltlike the experience with the post office was
very similar to the military, wherehe had given his all but ultimately been
abandoned and basically sent back into theworld completely unprepared. You know, they
had basically used him and left himhigh and dry, just like when he

(13:58):
was alder. We don't oftentimes seeanybody that is conscious of the fact that
they needed some sort of aftercare planrights. You never see that ever,
And he's pissed about it twice.Yeah, he felt like, man,
you guys needed to take care ofme, like you owed me more than

(14:18):
this, you know, And hewasn't wrong in that feeling. You know,
that's justified when you're in that position. So he attempted to kind of
put a positive spin on this andlook at it as an opportunity, and
he began trying his luck as aprospector. So he traveled around Quebec searching

(14:43):
for treasure. What do you thinkhis luck was good or bad? Just?
I don't think he had good luck. I'm just I really don't.
I think prospectors like maybe there's onepercent of people that really find something,

(15:03):
but most of them were just chasing. It's like the lottery. You know,
everybody's playing it, but one personwins. Can you name one prospector
by name? No? Really,not even one? No, not one?
Really? Yeah you can, Cornelius, come on, the only one

(15:26):
I can think of. How thefuck do you know a prospector's name because
he's from Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer, Oh the Island to misfit Toys.
You know, you con Cornelius.He's always laying for gold with his little
pick axe. And he tested itand he says, oh, nothing,
I totally forgot about that. It'sclaymation. But you know, I like,

(15:48):
you only use that as a justification. Like my response is I forgot
about that, and You're like,it's claymation, Like, how do you
forget about claymation? Don't I'm askingyou? Don't you forget? But I
mean, honest to God, whenI when it's like, oh, then
he became a prospector, Like,man, this guy's better off just sitting

(16:10):
outside shine and choose, Like,what the hell are you doing? You're
really shining right now? Well,no, because it's old timey. It's
old timey back East, and that'swhat they did. They were newsies and
shoe shine guys. That's it.Um Or, they were selling fruit out
of wooden crates. I've seen thatin all the movies too, right,
but um no, Like it justdoesn't seem like a logical response. You're

(16:37):
looking for a career position. You'rejust like, I'm just gonna try to
find gold. Now it does seemlike a desperate response though, you know
what I mean, Like, youdon't need much to just start becoming a
prospector, right, you just needyourself and maybe a couple of tools and
Saint Bernard. It seems like it'ssomething where Okay, everybody's doing this,

(16:59):
you can make money at it.I don't have a boss. I can
just go round with my tools andtry and find this treasure. That's it.
You nailed it, one hundred percent. I don't even know if you
realize how genius what you just saidwas, I don't have a boss.
Yeah, every single time it's authority, figures and pressure. There's no boss.

(17:21):
However, there is every boss becausenow you're your own boss and the
world is your boss, and youhave to make you know, money to
support But what do we know?I mean, it's just interesting. I
will say. I remember going toSutter's mill when I was a kid up
north in you know, Gold country, and just being so hyped on that

(17:41):
and being like you can do this, this is real, and then asking
like, hey, can I justbe a prospect, Like can I just
pan for gold? No? Wefound all the gold and it was like
okay, well next right, ButI mean at that time there apparently was
still gold. Yeah, come back, I never knew that. Yep.

(18:03):
Anyway, thank you for this.Unfortunately the problem was that he wasn't very
well suited for the entrepreneur life andschedule. So sure, pretty sure,
I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Imean I think the grass is always greener,

(18:23):
you know. I think he wantedto give it a try, but
it just turned out to be anightmare for him, you know, because
he did actually thrive on structure andcertainty. So this instability of prospecting made
him too anxious. If you're alreadystruggling with some mental health challenges and you

(18:45):
don't know where your next treasure iscoming from, therefore you don't know where
your next meal is coming from.The amount of anxiety of that, you
know, I mean, I thinkthat's why it wasn't well suited for him.
It's just like keeping his own schedule, trying to get your work done
and actually find something that really isjust like winning the lottery. It's just

(19:08):
a crapshoot. It's just a gameof chance and luck, and so putting
your whole livelihood to chance, it'sjust too unstable for someone that's already feeling
out of sorts and needs some stabilityand something to lean on and something to

(19:29):
feel solid. He needs a foundation, and a job can be a foundation
and an anchor for you at times. And to have something so unstable be
his job, I think it reallyvery quickly became clear that prospecting was not
for him. I agree, sorosere desperately wanted to get hired to be

(19:55):
a letter carrier again so he couldregain that stability that it had provided him.
So he began stopping by the postoffice to try and get his old
job back. He kept showing upand asking, but they wouldn't commit to
rehiring him, and they seemed evasive. Yeah he's coming, bye, come

(20:22):
on, this guy, come onright. He could feel he knew something
was wrong, but they weren't tellinghim, you know. So he's like,
they're being weird with me, butI know that there's a reason why
they're not hiring me, and they'renot telling me. Yeah, and they
had already just you know, whenhe comes in, just be nice to

(20:44):
him, but we're not really youknow, you know, you know,
Okay, I know the droll.It's just this little dance that you have
to do when you're front lines inany sort of retail food service. You
just have to be us nice enoughto these people that are requesting things,
and everybody else that works there knowswhat the deal is. Yeah, there's

(21:08):
always a person that comes in,Hey are you guys hiring and you all
look at each other like they cannotwork here, guys and you just go,
you know what when the managers here, Oh, they're here on for
a frise for his days. Yeah, whatever day, they're here on that
day, and you should come backthen, and it's just, you know,

(21:29):
you just put them off. Yeah, Hey, how are the kids
doing. Oh he doesn't have kids, he's not married, but yeah,
you know, you small talk himto death, and then hey, we
should get coffee, and then no, we're never getting coffee. Goodbye.
Yeah. It just seemed like hebecame almost a nuisance, but definitely well
known. Even if he wasn't tothe point of being a nuisance, yet

(21:52):
everybody knew him. They saw himcoming walking into the office. Oh,
Rose's here, he's asking for hisjob back. You know, he kept
showing up. They just wouldn't givehim an answer, so he finally just
pushed and asked why they wouldn't hirehim again, and supervisors said that his

(22:15):
mental state was a liability. Theyall thought that he was showing signs of
struggling with his mental health, whichthey referred to again as quote mental derangement.
The harsh judgment and inability to gethis job back really caused even more

(22:37):
anxiety and depression for Rosair. It'sinteresting to me also because he's already been
like, there's a paper somewhere thatsays probably on it mental derangement, because
they've already referred to him that way. So then if he's coming back,
it's almost like, do you evenwant to go back to somewhere that's already

(22:57):
insulted you so badly? Right,because Rosia doesn't necessarily believe that he's mentally
deranged enough on the scale, youknow, to not have his job.
So it's just kind of funny thatthey're reiterating what they've already written on if
he's a paper for him, andit's like, well, it's still the
same reason, and I just Idon't know why he would want to go

(23:19):
back that just you know, he'seither that desperate or he's that quote mentally
drained. Right, there's something therethat it's not clicking with him that they
let him go for certain reasons,and those reasons haven't changed that logic,
that little point A point B isnot really making sense to him. He's

(23:41):
like, but I want my jobback, so I'm going to get it.
You know. Over time, hedeveloped a persecution complex in which he
was convinced that his co workers andsupervisors were all against him. He felt
like it was their fault that hehad been unable to work at the post

(24:03):
office and that he couldn't get rehired. And we've seen this with the other
postal cases as well. It's apersecution complex, but it's just this paranoia
as well that people are against them, that the problems that the person is
experiencing is the fault of other peoplewho are plotting, that are planning,

(24:26):
that are just trying to hold themdown. It's usually paranoia about a conspiracy
that starts at the post office isfar reaching and everyone knows but you,
and they're all laughing at you.There's definitely a shame kind of embarrassment behind

(24:48):
it of thinking that your coworkers arejust laughing behind your back and they got
rid of him, he was firedand can't get rehired, and they're laughing
about it. In his mind,so then say you bringing him back,
Devil's advocate, Okay, Rosa,We're going to bring you back. And
like day one, Rosia looks overand sees you know, Amily and Orally

(25:11):
over there together talking about something,maybe whispering, maybe speaking in low tones,
and all of a sudden, nowthey're talking about me, and that's
one's talking about me, And allof a sudden, Rosia's in the HR
office constantly talking about how they're alltalking about me, and it all ends
with a note that says mental derangement. And I mean, I know it's

(25:32):
the responsibility of the employer, thepost office to keep their employees safe.
If he really does seem like he'sthreatening, then you can't really let him
back without treatments. If he's stillexhibiting the same behavior, then it would
make sense to not bring him back. I understand that, you know,

(25:55):
And we definitely at this time didnot have the kind of dialog about mental
health, so it was or lawsprotecting people either. So it seemed almost
impossible at this time that he wouldget his way. But I can understand
why they wouldn't. You know,it's about the safety of the greater whole

(26:17):
of all the employees. They're notgoing to just make this one person happy
at the expense of everybody else.So, because he had this paranoia and
persecution complex, he began coming upwith a plan to get back at the

(26:38):
people that he felt were against him. Rosaire owned a German thirty two miles
or revolver, but it's actually unknownwhere he bought the gun or how he
obtained it. On October twenty fifth, nineteen thirty four, Zaire called his

(27:00):
nephew, twenty year old Gaston andasked if he wanted to join him on
a hunting trip in the Beauport Woodsthat afternoon. He also called and persuaded
Gaston's brother, eighteen year old Ferdinand, and their twenty one year old sister
Yvette to go along since he livedwith his parents and one of his sister

(27:23):
Still for sure, he was reallyclose with his nieces and nephews. Yeah,
this was not abnormal. This wasjust a typical day, like okay,
I'm free, let's go do thisactivity. Yeah, nothing that sends
up red flags. Then he calledand invited his own sisters, sixty two

(27:45):
year old Rosalie and lastly sixty threeyear old Marie, who were the mothers
of the niece and nephews. Heonly had so much space in his car,
so this meant that he would haveto make two separate trips in order
to get everybody out to the destination. Rosere told everyone that he would take

(28:11):
his two nephews first, then hewould come back for the women. The
men piled into the car and headedtowards the woods. Then he pulled the
car over. When they reached theroad off the highway, they all got
out of the car, grabbed theirgear, and began walking down a path

(28:36):
towards Saint Andrew's Mountain. Once thethree of them were isolated and alone together
and a little bit further off theroad, rosere shot each of his nephews
in the back of the head andkilled them both. Once their bodies were

(28:56):
hidden in the undergrowth of the woods, he headed back to his car.
That's pretty cold heading back to theMom's just okay, all right, it's
your turn. It's so calculated,and also it really makes sense for someone
that's calculating a murder that he wantsto get rid of the two males first.

(29:21):
He obviously felt like if he tooklike maybe one nephew and one aunt
or one nephew and the sister,that maybe they would fight, you know
what I mean, that the nephewswould try and fight him. So he's
like, I need to take themout first, or if I come back
for the nephews second and take thefirst trip with the girls. If they

(29:44):
sense anything's wrong, they might attackme. So I think he felt like
the men posed the biggest threat asbeing you know, young, twenty early
twenties guys. He wanted to makesure that he could take him out before
anyone else. Yeah, it's justit is very cold, evil calculated,

(30:07):
just very disturbing behavior. He droveback to Quebec and told the women to
come with him quickly because the boyswere injured and needed help. Rosare sped
down the road back towards the woods, then parked in the exact same spot

(30:30):
as when he brought his nephews.There must have been a hell of a
car ride, like just crying andscreaming and what happened? What happened?
Rosare. He's completely installed panic inthem, Yeah, not keeping anyone calm.
And honestly, it's it's almost extracruel because he didn't really even need

(30:55):
to do that, I don't think, because they were all planning on going
on this trip anyway. I feellike he did it to get some sort
of sick pleasure out of seeing theirreactions, you know, like he couldn't
tell them that the nephews had died, but he could tell them that they
were severely injured and kind of livethis kind of fantasy of seeing the pain

(31:18):
that it would cause them. Youknow. Yeah, it's weird. And
this is again, this is hisown family. This is the people he's
closest to in the world. Helives with some of them, and he
really wants to see them suffer,which is just so disturbing and evil.

(31:41):
So he parked in the same spotwhere he had brought his nephews, and
then they all walked in a singlefile line down the same path into the
woods. He shot all three womenone by one in the back of the
head, killing all three of them. That's wild. One two, three

(32:07):
like feet apart from each other,found on top, like practically on top
of each other. I mean,it's just and then by the time one
you hear the sound from the onethe last one in the back, the
second one's realizing, and then thefirst one has knowledge. Right, So
do you try to if how fastdoes this all happen? It's a whole

(32:27):
thing. It was systematic too.I mean, these were executions. They
were just planned out. He's goingto walk behind everybody and shoot everybody in
the back of the head, oneby one. In both of these attacks,
and at a certain point when youcommit the first two murders, he
had an entire ride back to hisfamily and then back to the woods to

(32:51):
think about this. You know,any normal person would just be like,
holy shit, I can't believe Ijust did that, lose mind and turned
themselves in. Yeah, I can'tbelieve that he had all this time to
think and reflect and know that hewas going to move forward with doing the
same thing to the rest of hisfamily and never really stopped and was like,

(33:15):
yeah, I shouldn't do this.That was horrific seeing my nephews die
at my hands. He just keptgoing Yeah. About two hours later,
around three fifteen pm, Rosaire suddenlyshowed up at his former workplace, the

(33:36):
Quebec post Office. He asked tosee sixty year old Octav Fisset, who
was the divisional postal superintendent. Sinceit was pretty normal for Rosaire to come
by and ask for his job backall the time, the employees didn't find
it unusual at all, and theywere just not concarned that he showed up

(34:00):
that day. There were no redflags going off. Yeah, they're just
expecting him to come in and beannoying little you know, rosere Oh he's
here. Tell them we're hiring nextmonth, you know, yeah, like,
oh, it's Wednesday again, Rose'shere. You know, it just
seemed normal, business as usual.Yeah. While he waited, ROSEI was

(34:22):
shown into a conference room with severalpeople in it. Without warning, he
pulled his pistol out and fired rapidlyat Postmaster Jean Baptiste more In, who
they also called JB. JB washit three times, once in the jaw,

(34:45):
once in the throat, and oncein the body, but he still
managed to stagger out the door inan attempt to alert people and get help.
It's amazing, Yeah, it's it'sunbelievable when I hear things like that.
It's hard enough for me to getup when like I need a snack,

(35:06):
when I'm watching a true crime show, you know, like I can't
believe, like just the triumph ofpeople that want to help others and make
sure that they protect other people aroundthem, because at that point, I
mean he shot multiple times, he'sreally just looking out for his coworkers,
knowing this could escalate to where Rosashoots everybody in the building, and he's

(35:30):
trying to just get the news outthere as quickly as possible. Somebody called
the authorities, we need first respondersnow. Rose Are then turned his attention
to Moisturely Sair, a senior mailclerk, who he then pointed his gun
at. Suddenly, a good Samaritannamed Octav, is said, decided to

(35:54):
try and stop the shooter. Octovjumped towards the man, caused Rosaire to
pull the trigger and begin shooting asthey fought for control of the gun.
He hit Octov in the head,then the chest, and he slumped to
the floor. Aktov died later atthe hospital. The good Samaritan was survived

(36:20):
by his wife and nine children.Yeah, it's so sad. He came
there and you know, he askedto see Octav and they're like, you
know, okay, just wait asecond, you know, we'll get him.
So he just kind of walks inas this is all going on,
and it's like, yeah, he'syou know, thought of as the Good
Samaritan because thank god, you knowin a way that he did come out,

(36:43):
but he had nine children. It'sso sad. Yeah, but he
did save all these other people definitelybeing murdered. Yep. Moy's was also
hit by a bullet, but herecovered, as did jay Be, the
person who was shot three times.In total, Roseer fired eight shots while

(37:07):
in the conference room of people.Rose composed himself and then calmly walked out
of the room and headed for anearby phone cubicle, which is basically an
old timey phone booth where you canactually shut the door behind you. Yeah.

(37:29):
I don't know how to describe this. I made up a bunch of
words, like a phone cubicle,for example, because like, how do
you describe this, because you sayphone booth and it's like, what is
that? It's like, oh,okay, wait, I have to start
with phone booth, got it.But yeah, it's like you know,
old timey inside the phones were withconnections. It was hold the thing to

(37:50):
your ear and your mouth at thesame time. So it's like you have
your own little area with a deskyou can sit inside. It's right,
But yeah, it's kind of hejust clocked just go and walks and just
sits down right inside one Just okay, I'm done. Yep, that's it.
So police arrived on the scene tofind Rosere mumbling incoherently to himself inside

(38:14):
the telephone booth. He had setthe gun on the desk next to him.
They arrested Roseer with absolutely no fightwhile he was still babbling away into
the telephone. The gun appeared tobe a collectible, which detectives assumed was

(38:38):
something that he had got in Franceduring the war. After he was taken
in and booked for the shooting atthe post office, detectives began questioning him.
Roseair told the detectives that he hadmurdered his family in the woods and

(39:02):
as of right now, I mean, the police don't know anything about this.
This is news to them, sothey think this is just an isolated
postal shooting, that's all it is. Then suddenly this information comes out that
there's five more people that are dead. Yeah. He explained that he had

(39:24):
killed them with the same gun heused at the post office. Police said
he showed evidence of quote again,mental derangement as they called it, but
willingly cooperated with the police to helpthem recover the bodies of his family members.

(39:47):
On the way back to the woods, while in the backseat of the
cruiser, Rosaire was talking to himselfand the officers heard him say, poor
Eve, that how she must havesuffered, and I'm wondering if if he

(40:09):
killed her last or if her shotswas particularly brutal for some reason. That's
kind of what I am imagining aswell, is that maybe as she was
dying, she was gasping. Itwasn't an immediate death, something along those

(40:29):
lines. Or maybe there's something evetslife that happened to her that we don't
even know. Ye could rambling andlike she was the victim of something in
her life. Maybe she is sick. Who knows what she went Oh,
she had suffered and that's all heknows. Is like in the family,
everyone knows Vet's gone through suffering.It could be anything, you know,
I mean, just rambling away inthe back of a cop car, murdered

(40:52):
a bunch of people. Yeah,I just assumed that it was like something
like she saw her aunts die beforeher, so she was the one that
knew was coming for the longest.Yeah. I mean, that's the ultimate
nightmare in so many ways. That'sthe horror film scenario where you see other
people that you love dying in frontof you, and then you're the only

(41:13):
one left and you have to getaway and survive, even though you've just
seen people you love dye in frontof you, you know, Yeah,
that's the first thing that popped intomy head. But I think that's just
because that's my nightmare. Well,like with total veer to Chris Watts,

(41:36):
I know, everybody, this isreally really like, you know, with
all the Netflix stuff, and there'sbeen a really big like resurgence of Chris
Watts information. It's all over myfeeds lately. It's just Chris Watts stuff,
new information, this and that,all the stuff right now because of
that Netflix show. And one ofthe things that people cannot deal with,
they can't wrap their head around it, and they get very upset is when

(41:57):
they realize that Shenan was in thecar in the back seat on the ground
and the girls were awake and aliveand talking and like what's wrong with mommy
and watching him you know, Burnerone and knowing that Bella's next, and
you know, like all this it'sthat anticipation of horrific events are coming to
me that people just you can't youjust cannot even imagine what that's like.

(42:22):
Yeah, you just can't fathom thathappening and just not being able to process
it and seeing it happen in frontof you, and knowing the kind of
terror that you would be overwhelmed with, knowing the ear next and what would
you do differently, and how wouldyou react, and you know, it's

(42:44):
very very interesting. Now take ourcruiser back. We're back. Okay,
we feared off for a second.First, he helped the police find the
bodies of the three women in thewoods, and by all accounts, they
were not as concealed because he hadinitially hidden the boys bodies so that he

(43:06):
could bring the women back and theywouldn't see anything. But then he just
left the women there, so theywere just dead on this trail, like
if a hiker had found them,they would have stumbled upon multiple bodies,
you know. Crime Scene processors notedthat there was blood spray on the foliage

(43:30):
near the women's bodies. By thetime the first three bodies were recovered,
it was dark out and it wasdecided that they would just restart the search
for the boys in the morning.At first light, the bodies of the
nephews were found lying in the woodsa little further down the path from where

(43:51):
the women were found. Experts atthe crime scene determined that everyone had been
dead since mid afternoon, judging bythe temperature of the bodies at the time,
police believe that Rosaire had quote becomesuddenly insane and committed the crimes.

(44:16):
As a follower of true crime listener, you are aware that doesn't happen very
often becoming suddenly insane. Yeah,well, like back at this point and
just whatever, never mind. Ijust know that, like usually you're not

(44:37):
just suddenly crazy and commit the murder. There are signs, there are red
flags, right. This is somethingthat we talk about often. If you
listen to our show, I meanyou hear us say there's escalation, and
if you listen to anything true crimeor watch the shows, there's always an
escalation. There's a background, right, Yes, this doesn't happen out of

(45:00):
nowhere. Even in the cases thatwe've covered in the last couple weeks with
postal workers, you see that there'sokay, deteriorating mental health, or there's
some financial stress and someone's desperate tofind a way to make things work and
they make bad decisions. There's alwaysthis escalation. So yeah, to paint

(45:21):
it as like, oh, suddenlyhe just snapped, it's like no,
there was definite warning signs. Andthis is something we always preach, just
help each other out. Look forthose warning signs. Recommend resources to people
that you think need them. Talkto the people that you love, let
them know you're there for them andthey're not alone. If someone could see

(45:43):
these warning signs in him and tryand talk to him and get him some
help, maybe many crimes like thisdon't happen if someone has love and support
and resources. You know. Yes, So, authorities believed that Rosaire had
an illness that was caused by thequote war gas and the depression over his

(46:09):
lost job just kind of caused hismind that was already fragile to snap.
The press began reporting that this wasa case of a man that was driven
to homicidal mania because of the stressand unemployment caused by his mental health.

(46:30):
While awaiting trial, he was evaluatedand it was determined that he was experiencing
delusions, specifically that people were outto get him. He became so out
of control during one episode that hequote ran a muck, as described in

(46:52):
the newspapers at the time, Whatdoes that entail quote a muck? Because
we see it a lot in oldtiming. It's like and they use it
as a descriptive term. Of anaction. What is the action that is
a muck? I think it's justchaos. Yeah, I don't know if

(47:15):
it's just ranting and raving and throwingthings in the courtroom or something. I
don't know. Yeah. At thetime, the media described the shooting spree
as quote Canada's greatest mass murder.It was determined that despite the constant discussion

(47:36):
of his mental state, Rosare wasindeed well enough to stand trial. And
of course that's not saying much duringthis era, because we just don't have
a lot of support for people withmental health struggles at this time, and
there's a lot of naysayers and peoplethat just don't believe in the validity of

(48:01):
mental health challenges or give it anysort of compassion. So it's not surprising
that they just said that they wouldn'tbuy that defense. His attorneys still entered
a plea of insanity for their client, who was completely disinterested and just didn't

(48:22):
seem to be paying attention during thetrial at all. The trial began on
January twenty fourth, nineteen thirty five, and several people took to the stand
describing their experiences with Rosaire. Awoman testified that she had been a penpell

(48:45):
of Roseair's, and they had maintaineda friendship, corresponding with letters for years.
She explained that he had written hera letter the day before the murders
that read, quote, the newspaperswill soon tell you terrible things about me.
If he's saying that the newspapers aregoing to say terrible things, doesn't

(49:09):
this say premeditation? Yes? Absolutely, yes, And it totally flies in
the face of this assertion that hesnapped. You know what I mean,
Snapping is no premeditation all of asudden, in the moment, it's overwhelming,
and bad thing happens, you know, insert bad thing year. But

(49:34):
to snap, you're not having theplanning, the foresight telling people that you're
doing this stuff, telling people thatsomething is going to go down. So
absolutely, this is a big chinkin the armor of his defense team.
Je Govan, who was his sisterMarie's husband aka Rosaire's brother in law and

(50:00):
the father of all three murdered children, also testified during the trial. Je
had already experienced great tragedy in hislife even prior to the murders that were
committed by Rosaire. His young sonLeopold was killed in a car accident and

(50:24):
his sister died, and then,of course this happened, his wife and
three children were murdered, totaling sixdeaths in the immediate family, just in
a few years since nineteen thirty.It's really sad. He was already just
so beat down, you know,he had already gone through so much.

(50:49):
My heart just completely aches for thisguy. It's a tragic character, but
he's a human like he's a tragicfigure. Absolutely. Je's testimony shocked the
entire courtroom when he revealed that hisbrother in law Rose There had not been

(51:15):
in the military in any capacity.Dun dun, dub. It's like,
wait, what what do you mean? Thickens of crime cases. That's what

(51:35):
they base everything they know about thisguy on. All he does is talk
about his experience in the military andhow fucked up he is because of it.
Yeah, that's the basis of hisdefense, It's the basis of his
whole personality leading up to this.This is what he's been telling all his

(51:55):
friends. This is the story ofhis life. This is his narrative,
his little biography spiel that he wouldgive to new people. You know,
I just this was a huge partof his identity and it was all a
lie. And if you're his sisteror a close friend for a long time,

(52:21):
and you know, he did notgo to war, and he comes
back and he's suffering all these toxiche never went anywhere. Sorry, he
comes back. He never went anywhere. And then all of a sudden,
one day he has gas sickness andall these horrible PTSD and you know,
can't function moves in his job becauseof it. And he was never there.

(52:44):
And I mean, I don't knowwho you say something too, but
god, damn, you say somethingat that point, like, hey,
mom, my brother is experiencing seriousdelusions. Now what everybody has to know
about this? Yeah, the peoplethat are close to him that knew him
before knew the entire time. Andmaybe there's a possibility he wasn't talking to

(53:08):
them about it, and maybe onlytalking to his friends and co workers.
There's a possibility that this was likehis second secret life. But his family
only knew him at home, andhe wouldn't introduce family to friends or co
workers, you know, So there'sa possibility he was able to keep it

(53:30):
separate and his brother in law likejust found this out during the media coverage
in the trial. You know,there's a possibility that could be the case,
but it is completely shocking, andit still means that he has mental
health challenges. It's just that they'revastly different from the PTSD that he said

(53:52):
he had or that he exhibited thissymptoms of that clearly were something else,
or him acting like he had theseissues just because it was part of an
other mental health issue. Yeah,I think there might also be an angle

(54:13):
to this where the brother in lawknows he hasn't gone into the military,
so then when he hears them talkingabout it, maybe he just lets him.
That's my crazy brother in law.You know, he spouts a lot
of bullshit, like we just lethim talk. He's nuts, you know,
he just lets it go. Andthe whole family, I think,
you know, because there's this likeshame in mental illness at the time,

(54:35):
maybe they just kind of let rosairtalk and do whatever. And it's just
like that family secret. You know, at the time, you don't talk
about anything. So family secrets stayin the family, and you know,
until you murder his children and hiswife and now it's okay, game on.
I got nothing but contempt and hatred, and I should have said something,

(54:57):
so now I'm going to testify,And I think there might be a
little aspect of that as well.Definitely. I think that it just got
to a point where he's like,even if they were dismissing it previously and
they're like, Okay, maybe theyknew about it and could kind of shrug
it off a little bit, thisis just the final straw, like he

(55:21):
has to say something because he's gettingso much support and sympathy from the public,
thinking, oh, well, thisis this poor soldier that you know
clearly was affected by the war thechemicals and now has done this thing.
But it really can be traced backto the horrific things that he suffered,

(55:45):
so people have a lot of understandingand sympathy for him. Yeah, and
I'm sure his brother in law waslike, oh no, I'm not going
to let that fly. Good forhim. Yeah. The entire defense had
all been based around playing on thesympathy for this man who had supposedly suffered

(56:07):
deep wounds in the war, bothphysically and mentally, and all of that
went out the window after Je's testimony. On January thirtieth, the jury deliberated
for thirty minutes and found Rosaire guiltyon all six charges of murder. He

(56:29):
was sentenced to death by hanging,which was supposed to be carried out on
April twelfth, nineteen thirty five.And again, one of the things that's
striking to me is in old timecases, you see this where he's convicted
and then just within a matter ofa couple months they planned to execute him.

(56:51):
It's not like there's years on deathrow and a possibility of fighting the
case. Again, it's just veryquick. Yeah, they don't mess around.
No. His lawyers appealed, whichdid by him a couple more months

(57:13):
of life, but ultimately the decisionwould stand and he was in fact executed
on June fourteenth, nineteen thirty five. Rosaire's last words were quote, God,
pardon me for my sins. Ateight o four am, he dropped
through the trap and was pronounced deadeight minutes later. On April nineteenth,

(57:40):
nineteen thirty eight, the body ofa man found floating in the Louise Basin
was identified as Rosaire's brother in law, Je Govan. It was ruled accidental.
That is really one of the saddestthings to me is that Je never

(58:00):
recovered. Yeah, like hardcore evenmore so, there's one article that discusses,
you know, his lifestyle, right, and that he just he couldn't
stop drinking after and so it seemslike it's you know, just sadness.
Depression. Substance abuse is like thestory of Jay Ego Van due to all

(58:23):
this tragedy he experienced in his life. Yeah, of course, I mean
it would just be near impossible torecover from any of that even today.
It would just I think, completelydestroy you. But yes, think about
going through this in this time periodwhere it's the early nineteen hundreds, there's

(58:46):
just no resources for mental health.Nobody's going to therapy, nobody's you know,
you go to your doctor and yourdoctor's like take this opium or something,
you know, like put some cocaine. Exactly. There's really no treatment.
There's no you know, talk therapyor anything, or people that are

(59:07):
educated in this that have the resourcesfor you to say, hey, you
know, like talk to this therapist, read this self help book, even
that kind of stuff. He justdoesn't have anything to get over this tremendous
loss except for drinking himself into notfeeling just numbing the pain with alcohol,

(59:30):
you know, and it's just onlynormal that at this time, that's your
therapist is at the bottom of abottle. And I feel terrible for him
because he just went through so much, but he he could never overcome it
and move on, and the worldjust wasn't really ready, wasn't equipped for

(59:52):
dealing with these kind of tragedies andhelping people recover at this time. It's
bizarre too, because it is soold timey. We can't you know,

(01:00:12):
take the files and look through andcomb and read autopsy reports and all this
stuff, right, but mental derangementon his records. Perhaps someone hears him
talking about his military service while he'sworking at the post office, or you
know, he sees somebody that he'sknown because he lives in this you know,
this area a long time, sosomebody calls him out and it's like,

(01:00:35):
hey, you weren't in the military. Maybe this gets back to supervisor,
you know. And there's more examplesof him living, like you said,
that second life, like he wasable to compartmentalize in his disorder or
in his you know brain somewhere inthere. And this is my post office
life where I was in the military, and then this is my other life

(01:00:58):
where I live at home with mymom, and right, it's bizarre,
and it's maybe they saw something andyou know, Okay, we're going to
cut him loose, and he keptcoming around, you know. Yeah,
Yeah, I think it's just eventhough there was no large incident report or
anything filed that we know of,it's clear that something was concerning enough to

(01:01:22):
where they had to let him go. But his family completely trusted him and
they didn't have any knowledge that anythingwas wrong, which leads me to believe
if they have a close relationship,he lives with them and they're willing to
come into a remote woods with him, with the entire family, they really

(01:01:43):
didn't think anything was wrong. Theydidn't see him as dangerous, and they
probably didn't know that he was strugglingwith his mental health. They probably didn't
see the signs the way that maybepeople at work did when he's stressed and
some little cracks started to show.Yeah, when he was at home and
his comfort zone, maybe it justwasn't as apparent. Yeah, it's all

(01:02:09):
just This is an interesting one alsobecause of the way that it was covered
in the media at the time.Because you're reading everything, you're just absorbing
all of these you know, oldtimey news articles where they're using phrases like
he ran them up and he's mentallydrained, and they don't care what they
say, and they're just you know, insanity back then was just like written.

(01:02:31):
So up until Jay's testimony, itis just they are bleeding hearts for
this guy. He's suffered the sympathy, and then Jaye testifies, it's like
front page news and you never readabout him again, about Rose there until

(01:02:51):
the day he's hung, or likethe verdict comes in and he's guilty.
You know, they it changes andthey realize this is not something we need
to be sympathetic towards. And thenit just completely changes and they're out for
blood. Absolutely, And I thinkyou know, when you find out someone
has been lying like that, yes, I mean, it's not just a

(01:03:15):
frustration that your information was inaccurate,it's a betrayal. It's a feeling that
he betrayed everyone. You know,so the public completely turns on you.
It's like if someone was lying thatthey had COVID just so they could get
a couple weeks off work. Youknow, you find that out and you
think, oh, well, I'vebeen working with that person, and I'm

(01:03:37):
scared and both like, if youwere to find that out, it's a
complete betrayal. No more trust.Yeah, you just can't say lies like
that lightly. It's just not okay. And he really wasn't emotionally well enough
to not do that. He wantedto make the military a big part of

(01:04:00):
his identity and it just eventually backfiredon him. You know, there was
too much else going on. Hecouldn't keep it together. No, So
that's our last letter, P goingpostal case and we're going to move on

(01:04:24):
to a new letter next week.Very exciting. I love letters, but
feels like fresh energy. It does, and then you get in it and
it's like, oh, now I'min this damn letter, you know,
and then you're complaining about the letter, and then you're like, I can't
wait for a new letter. Thenew letter comes. Same thing. Yeah,

(01:04:45):
if you're in the beginning of therelationship, you're in lust, not
love, and then you fall inlove and then you're annoyed, and then
you want to break up and thensomething else cute comes in front of you
and you're like, oh, Ilust after you again. You know,
it's just a cycle happening again andagain. Yeah. I think the fact
that we do. Usually three casesper letter is kind of the perfect amount

(01:05:08):
because by the You're right, thefirst one I'm usually most excited about and
most intrigued, and like, I'mkind of fully in the mindset of this
letter, this new subject. Thesecond one is like, okay, cool,
now I know even more information.I know more about these cases,
and there's more background and why thesepeople do what they do. And then

(01:05:31):
by the third one, I'm like, oh my god, I'm exhausted.
There's so many postal workers to bescared of, or like, you know,
or this is just too emotional,you know. And then I'm ready
for some new energies, some newinformation, something different. So the third
one is just like you didn't takeout the trash, and I don't even

(01:05:54):
want to look at you anymore,and I don't even like the sound of
your voice. And then suddenly we'reall too another letter perfect, I'm telling
you, right around the time,I just want to bounce out of it.
It is perfect timing. So whatelse? What else? I mean?
There's you know, it's the same, We're all it's the same.

(01:06:14):
We all live in a weird worldright now, we're all watching the same
television the Amazing Race started. Whatelse? I didn't even know that that
was still on television. Of courseI didn't text you, Hey the Amazing
is I love it? What else? M Yeah, the Vow is about

(01:06:38):
to be over. So if youguys are watching the Vow, we've been
really into that. So that's comingto a close soon. And they just
got picked up for a second seasonas well. Oh I didn't even know
that. How exciting. Yeah,so they're gonna, I guess focus more
on Keith going in depth? Iswhat it sounds like from what I read.

(01:07:00):
What is the deal with the volleyball? That is its own episode on
season two? Yeah, I hopethey show some pictures of him like at
seven, just like oh yeah,you know, well, it's just a
I don't know. I don't understandthe sport. Who wants their forearms to

(01:07:26):
feel like you have splinters all thetime? I don't know that person.
But people love it. People loveit. Okay, another one with this
volleyball a sulu. He's leaving hisfamily at home. He's breaking quarantine to
go play volleyball. That's the wholethat's like the whole season is they're up

(01:07:47):
secons. He's playing volleyball, andI don't know him too. It's just
interesting. I notice patterns. It'sby fourte Yeah, So anyway, I'm
gonna be finishing that. And Ican't think of anything else that we've been
watching. All I've got to shareis there was a girl. Her name's

(01:08:11):
Holly Cordier. She's been missing inZion National Park for two weeks and there's
been a ton of you know,coverage, you know, looking for Holly.
They were expecting at this point itwasn't going to be good news.
And I guess that she has beenfound as about an hour ago in Zion
and family would like the people,all of us that are snooping to respect

(01:08:34):
their privacy. But she I actuallywent to high school with her, and
her daughter says she was working asa nanny and during COVID lost her job.
So she took Brianna's life goal andran away with the circus. And
she has this really cool converted van. She's been touring and like checking out

(01:08:55):
all the different national parks because whynot, right, Yeah, we just
talked about what do you want todo on board? She's a really talented
skilled hiker, backpacker and all thisso you know, she went to Zion
and you know, the first dayof the second day, it's kind of
crazy that they weren't concerned. Andthen you know, finally she didn't show

(01:09:16):
up for the shuttle. We're concerned. And two weeks it's been and you
know, we don't know the details, and you know, it could be
as simple as she did not wantto be found. If that's the case,
that's fine. We found her.She's alive, it's cool. And
if not, and her leg isbroken, I hope she's recovers well.
And you know, Holly, we'reglad you're okay and you're out of there.
We got you. So we wereposting about that this week, so

(01:09:40):
I just wanted to update anybody ifyou were concerned, that's all. It's
a big relief when you said earlier, you said, oh, she's been
found and that was it. AndI was like, well, in our
line of interests and being out thetrue crime, you never know if that's
she's found good or or if she'sfound as in her body. And so

(01:10:01):
I was like immediately like, whatdo you mean this requires more clarification.
Yeah, than just she's found exactly, there's not much but at this point,
I don't even care if she's found. She was found alive, and
that's the thing. A lot ofthese stories don't end that way, and
it is just such a relief toknow that she is safe. So so

(01:10:28):
yeah, that was some good news, good news to end on. So
yeah, got out there, sogod, yeah she must be in some
rough shape. So anyway, that'sall right. So before we get out
of here, just a reminder ifyou want to read more on the case
that we talked about, just checkout the links to resources for our research

(01:10:49):
material in the show notes. There'salso links for wellness like twelve Step and
domestic violence resources, anti bullying stuffof LGBTQ stuff, Trevor Project. If
you want to get March, checkout our thread lists where there's shirts,

(01:11:09):
phonecases, mugs, towels, awhole bunch of stuff. And if you
want ad free episodes and bonus episodes, check out our Patreon at patreon dot
com, Slash Murder Dictionary podcast andjust to get all the info on when
our new episodes are coming out andnew true crime, breaking news and what

(01:11:34):
is on Courtney's TV, what she'swatching, yeah, and memes and all
that good stuff. Then check outour Facebook, Instagram and Twitter so we
will see you next time. Fora new letter next week. We hope
you guys have a great week andwe'll see you next time. We'll see

(01:11:58):
you bye. Can put the connyI the cony

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