Railroad Killers: William Guatney

Episode Transcript
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(00:40):
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you. We love you, andwe appreciate you so much, very very
very much. Thank you. Sothat's pretty much it for me. We
can jump into our next railroad forLetter R murderer. These people are all
over the place in every sense ofthe term. Yes, a lot of

(02:53):
the railroad killers are kind of allover the place, scattered in terms of
their mental state and also just physicallyall over across the US just going back
and forth. You never know wherethey are. And so that's definitely a
commonality that the railroad killers have isthey're really hard to find. Even if

(03:15):
police know that this is their primesuspect, it's almost impossible to narrow down
where they are, to get theminto custody, to get them in for
even an interview. You know.It's definitely something that we see over and
over again in the railroad murders.And then let's say that they do find

(03:38):
him right the time that has goneby and the miles that they've put between
themselves and the crime are all washedaway. It's gone, so there's nothing
to even you know, hey,we heard you were in town. Somebody
saw a drift, but it lookedlike you. What do you have to
say about it, Well, Iwas on a train. It's like,
how do you argue with that?So it's really hard to pin these guys

(04:00):
down, even when they are theonly main suspect in a murder, nobody
has ever been considered. Even twentythirty years later, they're the only one
still, but there's nothing you cando about it. Yeah, if I
ever need an alibi for anything,like, you know, I shoplift some
chapstick or something and I need analibi, I'll just tell someone that I'm

(04:20):
on a train. Oh yeah,at the time of the theft, I
was on a train. Because theycan't really prove anything. We keep seeing
that in these cases, like,oh, you say you're on a train,
it's like nobody knows where you are. Well, he said he was
on a train, We're gonna trusthim exactly, yeah, wild Yeah.

(04:43):
So tonight we are talking about WilliamGuottney who was born February fourteenth, Valentine's
Day, which is coming up nineteentwenty two, and he was adopted by
the Guattney family as a very smallbaby. His family and friends often called

(05:03):
him Junior, or they shortened hisname to Bill. He had siblings,
including one older brother, who werebiological children of his parents, so as
far as I could tell and correctme if I'm wrong, he was the
only one that was adopted. Isthat correct? Correct? Yeah? Correct.

(05:27):
During his childhood the family lived inFredonia, Kansas, but later he
would say he was raised in NeoshoFalls, Kansas, which is really just
less than an hour away. Atfourteen, he ran away from his parents'
home, which is another thing wesee as a commonality in these railroad killer

(05:50):
murders. They definitely have early childhoodor early teen tween year difficulty where they
run away and it kind of startsthem on the path of being out on
the street, being transient and lookingfor ways to get around and leads them
to the railroad. Yes, thatis very accurate. He lived with his

(06:15):
grandparent at some point, and alsowith his brother and his sister in law,
Pearl, when he was a teenager. His late teens was when William
began quote riding the rails of themany freight trains that traveled through the Midwest.
We can, of course speculate thathim running around and getting on the

(06:39):
trains had to do with him runningaway and moving in with just different family
members at different times, even thoughhe's still a team. I'm sure it's
also the excitement of being alone andon the train. You know, I
get on the train, I don'tknow where it's going, but I'm gonna
end up somewhere. You know.It's very exciting for a teenager, I'm

(07:00):
sure, especially one who seems alittle ansty to begin with and is already
trying to run away and put somemiles between himself and home. Yeah,
he's really wanting to get out therein the world, and I think it
represents a sense of adventure and gettingaway from whatever home life that he was
running away from. It doesn't reallysound like we know of anything horrific going

(07:24):
on, but there was some sortof turmoil since he was bounced around so
much, so he wanted to beon his own without having to answer to
the adults. I think you nailedit with the adventure angle of its kind
of how it starts, I believeso. Yeah, it just makes a
lot of sense. So he beganliving in box cars, traveling from town

(07:46):
to town and just criss crossing thecountry back and forth again and again.
In nineteen forty two, at twentyyears old, he joined the Army and
he ended up being shipped off toserve in the Army Tank Division while fighting
in World War Two. During hisservice, William was actually hit by shrapnel

(08:11):
in the head and he had tobe hospitalized for about a year. That's
super severe. It's a long time. He absolutely has traumatic brain injury from
this point forward, no matter what. He's got TBI onboard walking around helping
him make decisions, right, wehave to think that that is completely affecting

(08:37):
his cognitive function. It's affecting hisemotions, it's affecting the way that his
brain works. It's just never goingto be the same after something like this,
especially at this time period. Yes, and at this point we're still
lobotomizing people too, so we don'thave a great understanding of psychology or even

(08:58):
just the physical signs of the brainat this time. So you know,
oh, he hit his head,they put him in hospital. He's going
to recover and he snaps back rightlike, but again, he's had this
traumatic brain injury. So even ifhe recovers, things are not going to
be the same, right. Wejust didn't have the technology at the time

(09:20):
to understand what was going on insidehis brain. It's kind of like,
oh, the wound is healed,so he's good. Send him out into
the streets, you know, withno sort of rehab or you know,
follow up therapy or anything like that. The injury was so severe that for
nine months of his hospitalization he hadto be fed through a tube. Eventually

(09:46):
he was given a certified disabled dischargefrom a veterans hospital in Boise, Idaho.
Of course, since it was theforties and both medicine and technology were
not as advanced as today, thedoctors did not have a lot of let's
say, detailed information about the longterm effects of the injury on his brain,

(10:11):
and therefore, of course they can'tpass on that information to him about
you know, what he should belooking out for, how to do follow
up care, anything like that.And you know, one of the things
that stood out to me is tokind of look up when our brain technology
kind of developed. So X raysdidn't even exist until eighteen ninety five,

(10:33):
which is of course before this,but that's X rays, CT scans were
invented in nineteen sixty seven, andMRIs didn't exist until nineteen seventy seven.
So the information that they have aboutthe severity of his injury, what area

(10:54):
of the brain is affected, howto properly treat it, how to do
rehab an aftercare, none of thatexisted at this time. It's crazy that
he is still like twenty years outfrom even a ct skin right exactly,
Like all you would do is anX ray and see if maybe the skull
has a fracture. I know it'sa little bit of extra information, but

(11:16):
it just is interesting to me.What they had at their disposal to use
and give him information was next tonothing. You can see a crack in
the skull and that's where it ends. Also, because the information was not
available, there was a just completelack of aftercare or compassion and accommodation for

(11:37):
someone who had a traumatic brain injuryat this time, so people just kind
of didn't know. There was noawareness when you see someone and you assume
that they're just going to act acertain way, and if they don't fit
into that box, you don't knowthat it's because they got hit by shrapnel

(11:58):
and to be hospitalized for a year. Today someone could say, oh,
just bear with me. You know, my memory is bad, or this
is challenging for me because I havea traumatic brain injury. But because they
didn't treat it that way at thattime, he can't really get his own
accommodations and get compassion from people.It is safe to assume that William didn't

(12:24):
get the necessary rehabilitation, and thismade his continued challenges much more severe and
difficult to recover from. In nineteenforty seven, he was diagnosed with organic
brain syndrome, with symptoms that includememory lapses, confusion, paranoid schizophrenia,

(12:46):
and a low IQ. That's anissue that's with the actual brain itself.
We have issues like, for example, you know, anxiety isn't a physicsical
man, It's like, you know, it's not something with the actual physical
brain itself. Do you know whatI'm saying. I'm confused, I'm sorry,

(13:09):
I wish I knew more. Hehas problems with his actual brain.
The organ is not working well.Therefore, the things that are happening are
due to the fact that his brainis sick. He might be exhibiting depression
and anxiety and things, but theseare very different from somebody who's actual organ

(13:30):
the brain he has, you know, like the liver is sick, you
have cirrhosis of the liver. Thisis an actual disorder, a disease of
his brain. I hear what you'resaying. Okay, So, like,
for example, I mean, anxietywould be response to external stimuli. Think
like you get anxious about a situationthat you're in, whereas having organic brain

(13:52):
syndrome means that your brain itself isnot really functioning in the way that a
normal brain would function. Thank you, Brianna, you are a translator and
a scholar. That's it right there, You're exactly. The anxiety is a
response from something the organic brain syndrome. This is not a response. This

(14:15):
is just the organ itself is diseased. Which is a crazy diagnosis for somebody
not to be put into a facility, especially at this time, because that's
what they do with people with mentaldisorders at this time. Yeah, definitely,
back in this era, it wasjust, oh, if you have
something going on that you're a littlebit different, we're going to categorize you

(14:37):
as basically broken, and we're goingto put you far away from society.
You know, we're going to isolateyou. It was just extremely common,
so I'm surprised that he wasn't putin some sort of care with what he
was challenged with. Once he wasout of the hospital, he went right

(15:00):
back to riding the rails across thecountry once again. His friends gave him
the nickname freight train because one ofhis special talents was mimicking train whistle sounds
with his mouth. Sometimes, whenthe train would stop, he'd venture into
the nearest small town or walk aroundexploring the areas surrounding the train depot.

(15:28):
There were these certain towns that wereclearly his favorite, since he seemed to
hang around more often than others,and even often enough to become known within
those communities as kind of just thisgeneral harmless drifter character that everybody knew.

(15:48):
People who interacted with William described himas quote a hobo who was happy,
go lucky. Other casual acquaintances said, quote, he always was polite and
seemed to love children. Interesting description. He hated being called a bum or

(16:11):
a tramp, and hearing those wordswere the few times that people recall actually
seeing him get very angry. JoanSchmidt of Springfield, Illinois developed a good
enough rapport with William to let himstay in her garage when he was in
town. She said, quote,all I can say is that my children

(16:36):
really loved him. He didn't likethe kids who taunted him with names.
By his own admission, he struggledwith anger issues, and he had told
a friend quote, I'm two people. I can also be mean, but
the kids love him. I don'tknow. There was just a little snap

(17:00):
inside him, like it just didn'ttake much to set him off, And
there were certain buttons that people wouldpush, and as a person that was
living on the road and living kindof a rough life, people would see
him and call him names, taunthim, and generally just be shitty to
him, and he would lash out. And I'm not saying that's okay at

(17:23):
all, but that just seemed tobe his trigger. It's also a symptom
of a traumatic brain injury, islike irrational lashing out, like anger issues
and stuff like that too could becompletely unrelated, but he has been hit
in the head with shrapnel and wasin the hospital for a year. Sometimes
the emotions sway back and forth betweenmoods very quickly. When you have a

(17:48):
traumatic brain injury, you know andit's hard to control that. A friend
from a random town recalled, quote, he was a strong man when he
got mad. So clearly there wassome physical violence, even if we don't
have necessarily a police record. Therethere were some people that knew if you

(18:08):
crossed him. It sounds like youwere going to get your ass kicked,
right, Yeah, definitely. Theinstability and emotional swings were also exacerbated by
William's love of wine and excessive alcoholconsumption. Just never any substances never really

(18:30):
help a brain issue, a mooddisorder, a mental health challenge, anything
like that. It's just putting extrastuff into your body is just not going
to help, you know, Yeah, not this one. Sometimes he would
take trains that ran through his hometownso he would visit his childhood friends and

(18:55):
his remaining siblings. According to hissister in law, Pearl, he quote
liked children and would take them fishingwhen he came home. He was a
pretty good fisherman. A town councilmember's wife said, quote, he never
bothered anybody. He just didn't stayin one place too long. I never

(19:21):
heard he was violent or hurt anybody. He was more or less just thrown
around again and again, it's justseems a little strange that people always bring
up that he was so good withchildren repeatedly, over and over again,

(19:45):
and I don't think I even necessarilyincluded them all. I think I probably
did. What were we talking about? But it was just striking. You
don't want to say it, butI mean there's you know, a pattern,
and quite frankly my high school principle, you could say, oh,
he loves children, right, heworks with the youth, though he's not

(20:10):
a freight train guatney, making trainwhistle noises with his mouth, going from
town to town, living with thebox car children, which exists we found
out, by the way this pastweek in the Facebook group. But anyway,
he's also a good fisherman. It'slike the priorities here are just a
little strange. The things that theypoint out again and again are weird.

(20:32):
And then oh yeah he gets madand he's strong. What they just go
all over the place with this guy. I don't know. I'm really good
with kids, I you know,very friendly with all my friends children and
my niece and nephew. But Inever think that if someone was like,
how would you describe Brianna? Thatthe first thing someone would say, right,

(20:57):
it wouldn't happen, you know whatI mean. I mean, there's
so many other aspects of my personality, and you can say that about anyone.
I can't think of one person thatthe first thing that comes to mind
is, oh, that person's reallygood with children. And if you say
something like that, yeah, ifyou say something like that about a person,

(21:18):
I feel like it's a red flag. I don't know, am I
crazy? It's just I can't thinkof one person. It's not crazy because
you've taken all the pieces and putthem together, and so when you hear
the first sentence, it's like,you know, um, oh, what
did you think? He liked children? It's like they say it first to

(21:41):
get it out of the way.It's weird every time they say it,
just like, oh, he likekids. He like kids, and he
liked to fish too. He wasyou know, he can make train whistle
noises secondary children. And that wasanother thing they said was well, the
kids loved it when he would makethe train whistles with his mouth, and
every goddamn thing they talk about theybring it back to the kids. And

(22:03):
normally that wouldn't be weird. Butagain, we are talking about a man
who is an adult, grown upman with no children, who's on the
move, who is a transient drunkhova going from town to town. He's
not a teacher, he's not ahigh school coach, you know, he's
not somebody that is working with theyouth. He is making it a point

(22:27):
to be away from people. Sowhy the hell are we always putting him
with kids. Yeah, it's justvery interesting. And like I said,
I can't think of anyone that Iwould say that about. It's something that
you would want to say about.Let's say your child's preschool teacher, like,

(22:49):
Oh, she's just so great withthe kids, and she's just made
to do this job and this isher life's passion. But anybody out if
it's the first thing you think of, I think there's something wrong with that.
I think that's a red flag.And this is definitely concerning. I
agree. So William would sometimes justget off the train while he was traveling

(23:15):
and then stay somewhere and pick upodd jobs or temporary employment so he could
just set roots in that town forjust a little bit of time. Usually
he secured jobs working as a herdsmanor working at traveling state and county fairs
or livestock shows, basically a carney. Well, I was just to say,

(23:41):
I wonder if he ever ran intoLeannelackins mom on the Carney circuit from
Housewives of Dallas, the well knownpast she's got. You know, she
ran three games herself by the timeshe was twelve. Anyway, I probably
knew each other. Total side note, but yeah, No, and the
whole that whole world is just thepeople and the interviews you get from that

(24:04):
circuit always worth it. Yeah,And it's filled with just interesting people that
are constantly traveling and seeing the USfrom a different kind of lens. You
know, a lot of storytellers exactly. Yeah. Once the job was over,

(24:26):
or basically he just didn't want towork anymore, he was back on
the road, always on the moveon the rail cars. It was really
clear that he wasn't very comfortable stayingin one place for that long. Even
when it was possible for him toset down routs and get something settled,

(24:48):
he didn't really want that. Williamsspent a lot of time with young boys
in these towns, and of coursethere were rumors of his questionable behavior that
seemed to always be just one stepbehind him and definitely could be part of

(25:12):
the reason why he was moving aroundso much. So as soon as there
was some rumors that popped up andpeople were talking about all these boys or
teenagers he was hanging out with,then he would move on to the next
town. Yes, at this time, there was even more secrecy and shame

(25:33):
surrounding sexual abuse. People just wouldnot talk about it. So even though
there were some whispers and rumors,nobody was really coming forward to make direct
accusations or go to the police topress charges or anything like that. It
was just this little whispers in thebackground. People kind of had this knowledge

(25:56):
that, oh, this is William'sthing. We think this about William,
but nothing was really done about it, and it certainly wasn't out in the
open. No. I think that'sexactly what happened, is he was just
always like a step ahead. Yeah. Because of this. In the same
breath, people would describe him asharmless in the way that he quote loved

(26:21):
children, but also concern for theway he quote loved children. Yeah.
From people's comments about William, whichwere always and only related to young boys,
it was clear that he was onlypraying on boys and really had no
interest in girls and wouldn't interact withgirls at all. On March second,

(26:48):
nineteen seventy four, William showed upat Marian Illinois Via Hospital with a severe
concussion and cuts on his face.That's all the information about his admission too
interesting. His injuries were severe enoughto keep him in the hospital for almost

(27:11):
a month, and then he wasreleased on March twenty seventh, nineteen seventy
four. The specifics of how hegot those injuries were unclear, but it
really seems that he must have gotteninto some sort of altercation or possibly you
know, one of my speculations ishe could have attacked someone that was strong

(27:36):
enough to fight back. Yeah,something, but something happened there, and
it seemed like they were wounds froma fight. So you've got to wonder
if a teenager was involved or somethinglike that. Yeah. One of the
reasons we can speculate that he gotinjured while attacking someone is because we know

(28:00):
that the following year, he committedhis first murder. On August thirtieth,
nineteen seventy five, best friends thirteenyear old John Simpson and twelve year old
Jacob Server went to the Nebraska Statefair in Lincoln, and this was really
a perfectly normal type of outing forthe friends, and it seemed like any

(28:25):
other day until later on when neitherof the boys returned home after the fair.
Jacob's body was found on September eighth, nine days after his disappearance.
He was found lying in the AntelopeCreek drainage ditch, about one block from

(28:48):
the fairgrounds, and he had beenstabbed to death. On September twenty second,
John's decomposing body was found inside Ihad a railroad hopper car and he
also had multiple stab wounds. Thatparticular railcar had been parked at the fair
grounds from August twenty ninth to Septemberthird, until it was moved to a

(29:15):
grain mill where the body was discoveredinside. So bizarre that he just sat
there in this train. Sorry,he just was like in this railroad car.
And it wasn't until you know,the train moves through whatever it is.
We got to move to mc grain. They're moving cars around, and
then they just find this kid thatthey've been looking for. And it's like

(29:37):
two weeks after they found the otherone. And you know, these boys
just disappeared off the face of theearth from this fair and he was just
there the whole time inside this car. Police began an extensive investigation and interviewed
hundreds of people before honing in onseven quote likely suspects. All of the

(30:02):
suspects were males between nineteen and theirlate thirties, some of which were carnival
workers who were at the fair thatday. We have seen this a few
times now, by the way,in our railroad killer research, how many
of these carnival workers were either suspectedor convicted of sexual crimes. Murders that

(30:29):
you know almost always have a sexualassault element to them related to carnival workers,
simply because of it's always moving throughtown. Any time that you're traveling,
anytime that you're on the move,it just makes it so much easier
to get away with murder and forthem to not be able to track you.
Nobody knows where you're going, whereyou came from. Detectives can't track

(30:49):
you down. So it's a reallyI don't want to say great job,
but it just makes a great job. Yeah. You know, it makes
sense for someone who wants to livea life of crime to go to a
job that is just constantly on themove. That's why we see railroad killers,

(31:10):
we see truck drivers and hikers,carneys and of course, like we
always say, just because you fitinto these categories does not mean you are
a violent offender or murderer. Ofcourse, there's plenty of people that choose
these careers that are not. Butwhen you do choose something that involves so

(31:30):
much traveling, it just makes itmore common to get away with it or
to be on the run for longerbecause it's hard to catch you. Yes,
so one of the seven main suspectsactually confess to an officer that he
may have killed the boys but wasn'tcertain because he couldn't remember doing it.

(31:53):
It's an interesting problem to have,right, Yes, I mean, what
was going on that another person witha traumatic brain injury? Or is it
a person in who was a blackoutdrunk. I mean, we just don't
think a blackout drunk. I thinka blackout drunk. That was the first,
That was my first guess. Yeah. But the thing is, even

(32:14):
though he confessed and said he didn'tknow what he had done that night,
the police cleared him quickly and theyinformed him that he'd actually been in prison
at the time that the murders werecommitted. Well, there's twofold here.
First, you're very relieved because you'relike, oh, thank god, I

(32:34):
didn't commit that murder. But thenthere's also this aspect where you're kind of
probably sad because if you went tothe police and you're like, hey,
I might have done this, youfeel really really bad and you have like
a heavy heart, guilty conscience kindof thing. You want to help them
find the killer, right, soright, But then at the same time
it turns out you're not the killer, and you're like, oh man,

(32:58):
they can't get closure, but hey, I'm not the killer, so that's
good. But he's very caught upwith justice even if it wasn't him,
or maybe it was him, he'snot even sure. He just wants to
help them. It's very strange tome. Yeah, we don't definitely had
a sense of like duty to helpyou know, yes, yeah, exactly.

(33:22):
And there's got to be a lotof emotions going on. You're relieved
it's not you, but you're disappointedthat you can't give them answers. But
then also you're like, um,I guess I was in prison without happened
there, you know, and howdid I forget that? There's a lot.
That's why I just tracked this oneup to blackout drunks. That makes
the most sense. Yeah, oneman that police were actively searching for was

(33:45):
a known transient, possibly named DavidDye, who was seen talking to the
boys before their disappearance. He hadbeen camping in a cluster of trees near
the real road tracks in the areaand was seen on August twenty eighth and
twenty ninth before leaving on the morningof August thirtieth, and he was not

(34:10):
seen again. They drew a compositesketch and doctor David Levine, a psychology
professor at the University of Nebraska,created a psychological profile of the suspect.
Doctor Levine believed that he may bea paranoid, schizophrenic or a former mental

(34:31):
patient who had spent significant time committedinto a mental institution. And I'm not
sure if this is just a littlebit of biased on his part or if
it's based on something concrete. Especially, I think that we have to put

(34:52):
the caveat in there that this isa long time ago. It's like satanic
panic or whatnot. It's sometimes easyto point in one direction at a vulnerable
population or choose something to villainize.That's my take on it, but I
don't know what do you think,Court? I agree. I feel like

(35:13):
they're kind of in the beginning stagesof really doing psychological profiles as well,
and so it is very similar tothe Satanic Panic of the eighties and things
like that as well, where they'rejust so you know, like caught up
in taking strange parts and putting themtogether and making it like, oh,

(35:34):
we caught him. Look he reallywas. He was a teacher who also
did this, who did that,and they get so proud of themselves.
It feels like this got away fromthem. I feel like the profile was,
maybe, like you said, inits infancy of doing psychological profiles,
So there's something to grasp onto there, But I don't know how great.

(35:55):
If we look back at some ofthe psychological profiles in the seventies, I
don't know how great they were.I would be curious to see how often
the profiles matched the actual convicted personone hundred and then also, they're just

(36:16):
so like the person that they areprofiling here is definitely it just doesn't make
sense with what they're finding. Liketo me, it just maybe you know,
because the Hindsight's twenty twenty. Butthe person they're looking for, it

(36:36):
just doesn't it doesn't all go together. How do you have somebody who you
know, like they said the manwas a drifter who had never held a
job for long, he has religiousdelusions, correct, But then at the
same time, like he's very highaverage intelligence with more than a high school
diploma. So how is he somebodywho's not holding a job. You know,

(36:58):
It's like the things don't really gotogether when I look. This is
my opinion when I was looking atit. So it just kind of seemed
like this is new. I'm notsure. I'm sure Docu Lavine did many
but Hindsights twenty twenty, I thinkis what's really going on here? It
just doesn't seem like the person you'relooking for. Yeah, I mean,
his profile indicated some mental health issues, said that he had been committed.

(37:21):
It also said that he was aboveaverage intelligence, that he's a drifter,
that he has religious delusions, allthese sorts of things. But I also
just think this is a way ofvillainizing mental health issues and stigmatizing anyone that
was outside the norm of certain mentalhealth boundaries. You know, I don't

(37:45):
know if I'm making complete sense,but things are not completely normalized. People
don't want to talk even today aboutgoing to therapy or being on medication.
There's still a lot of stigma.But back then we're talking about the seventies,
any sort of deviation from quote unquotenormal brain function, emotional function,

(38:07):
etc. Is just bad. AndI think this is a case where it's
just everything is villainized. You know, Oh, he's paranoid schizophrenic, he's
a drifter, he's this, thatand the other thing, and some of
these things ring true to what Williamis. But also I think it's just

(38:27):
easy to say, oh, yeah, he's got to have these mental issues,
because that's what we think at thistime. Anybody that's got mental issues
is violent. Yeah. You seealso like you're saying, you know,
at this period of time that anybodywho has mental issues is paranoid schizophrenia.
Yes, at this period and theseseventies and these seventies profiles, they're all

(38:51):
paranoid schizophrenics who are probably not acommon diagnosis, or we're at some point
on medication and now aren't. It'slike, okay, it's just it's interesting.
So anyway, that's our ted talkon why profiling is wrong. People.
People are going to be pissed atus for this, but no,
I think that we've we've come along way, and there's again exactly like

(39:15):
we know now, CT scans exists, MRIs exist, there's a lot more,
you know, cognitive behavioral therapy hascome a long way. There's a
lot more psychiatry being used. Imean, these medicines and technologies have advanced
so much since then. So Ijust, you know, think it's important
to point out that this person wasprobably doing their best given what they knew

(39:39):
with the time. But this doctordoesn't have the kind of information that we
have today, and so when theylacked information, that's when people would go
to things like villainizing and demonizing mentalhealth or satanic panic, or you know,

(40:00):
being against metal music and explicit lyricsor video games or whatever it was
of the time. This is Ithink what that profile suggests is just villainizing
what was a problem in society tothem at the time. Yes, that's

(40:21):
my take on it. I likeyour take. I agree. In June
of nineteen seventy six, police weresearching the campfire area near the woods where
they're still missing suspect had been campingwhen they found a letter opener, which
they believed was the murder weapon.Both those kids were stabbed at death,

(40:45):
correct, so they think they foundit. The handle had an image of
a woman graduate dressed in a capand gown carved into it, and was
concluded that it was an antique fromnineteen sixteen, so very rare. Police

(41:07):
released pictures of the unusual item,hoping that someone would recognize it, but
nobody contacted them about it. Thisseems like something that's a one off that
was handmade. You know, youwould think that someone would be like,
oh, I know that I've seenthat before, exactly this year. It

(41:30):
was very surprising. This seems likesomething that somebody who is maybe a prowler
or like a low key burglar whojust grabs purses or you know, people
leave their door open a lot likeback, especially this time, to get
air through the house right in theMidwest, and stuff stormed, all that
stuff. So it wouldn't even surpriseme if he's just in one of these
towns and just hops off a train, takes the opportunity and let maybe climbs

(41:54):
through a window, goes right througha front door, grabs a purse,
steals a weapon off a table thatyou know it's a letter opener. He
doesn't know what it is and justtakes off and it's like one of those
maybe he just picked it up randomat a train station. But it's definitely
something someone would remember, especially theclass in nineteen sixteen, right, But

(42:16):
yeah, it's a weird one.And to me, I just this is
a personal item from someone. Absolutely, it's very personal. I feel like
this is something that someone had madeor was a gift or something. And
I'm really surprised that when they releasedthe picture nobody came forward. Same one

(42:42):
year after the murders, the mediaand police attempted to renew interest in the
murders and hopefully kind of inspire newwitnesses to come forward by putting out a
newspaper article updating the status of thecase. Police posted signs at nineteen seventy
six fair with pictures of both boys, composites of the suspect, pictures of

(43:07):
the unique letter opener, and anypertinent information, basically hoping to just jog
someone's memory about the fair the yearbefore. In August of nineteen seventy six.
During this period of time, ofincreased focus on the case, William

(43:27):
was actually questioned about the boy's deaths, he was given a polygraph, and
then he was released. Investigators alsotried to find connections to similar cases in
other states, specifically where abduction ofyoung boys for sexual abuse purposes was the

(43:52):
motive. Friends and relatives said Williamwas quote not that type of person to
be accused of murder. That's whatthey always say always. The wife of
his cousin, Elmer said, quote, it just didn't sound like Junior unless

(44:13):
he was a different type of personaway than he was here. He would
entertain the kids with different sounds,freight train sounds, any animal you could
think of. He's so good withkids. Branna, I don't know what
your problem is. Again, it'sthe only thing people all say about exactly,
so creepy. This is the biggestred flag. And then the other

(44:37):
thing. Again, I asked youearlier, how many times have you been
questioned in a murder case? Right, and not only questioned but brought in
as one of the prime suspects.I mean, what you know, just
the fact that you're questioned and thisis happening to you multiple times. Yeah,

(45:00):
there's an issue. Move all thetime, and they're able to nail
you down for an interview. Hmm, interesting, he loves kids. Did
we tell you that something hinkies goingon? There? Got that train whistle
mouth. He's missing a lot ofteeth and that helps him with the freight

(45:21):
train whistle. Oh god, Ididn't even think of that until just now.
Yep, that would make sense,my mind wanders. Despite what people
who knew him thought, there weredetectives in several states who were trying to
solve cases for crimes that he hadcommitted, or were trying to find him

(45:43):
because he was the main suspect fora crime. Investigators from three different states
were having a hard time making casesthat would stick to William since, of
course, at the time, therewas you know, no surveillance, video,
cell phone pinging, any of thetechnology that would often help crack the

(46:05):
cases nowadays, especially for someone who'smoving around so much. You know,
nowadays, even if someone's on therailroad, we can see where their cell
phone was, we can see whenthey were online somewhere. But at this
time he was just a ghost,you know, so it was impossible to
see where he was. But prosecutorsin Lincoln, Nebraska actually had enough evidence

(46:35):
to get an arrest warrant for thekidnapping and murder cases of Jacob Serber and
John Simpson. Detectives from Lincoln andOmaha, Nebraska, Rock Island, Normal
and Springfield, Illinois, Fort Mason, Iowa, Topeka and Otto, Kansas,

(46:58):
Chandler, Arizona, and Santa Anna, California, who all of them
didn't have as much evidence, basicallydecided to work together to gather evidence to
strengthen the cases for the murders ofJacob and John. So there were all
these other cities that had just littletidbits but not enough for an arrest warrant,

(47:22):
and they all decided to chip inand try and help. I have
a feeling he was a little bitmore of a pain in the ass than
we are led to believe by allthese glowing statements about his train whistle mouth.
And it seems like they were sowilling right that they must have had

(47:43):
little tiny things on him leading upfor years. Each yes, each police
station, you know, because they'reall trained towns, they all are the
same place, just in different states. And so it seems to me just
the police were so willing to helpeach other. This does not happen.
A lot tells me, especially thistime, tells me they all they knew.

(48:06):
They just had to work together toget their hands on him. Absolutely,
yeah, everybody knew it was him. They just needed to nail down
where he was when he was there, get a timeline together, and pull
all their information and cases so thatthey could get something to convict him on.

(48:29):
That was the impossible thing, especiallysince not only was he constantly traveling
and on the move, but wedidn't have the type of forensics, we
didn't have the technology. There wasjust so many things against this case being
solved. So they had to pulltheir knowledge and the resources to get something

(48:52):
together to scrape together a case.Although law enforcement now knew who they were
looking for, finding William was difficultsince he'd use so many aliases throughout the
years and he was often on themove. It's just nearly impossible to nail

(49:13):
someone down that's like that. Detectivescaught a lucky break when he was found
and arrested in Springfield, Illinois,outside the Illinois State Fair while he was
sleeping in a broken down bus thathe'd been living in. Just follow the
fairs and you'll find him exactly andthat's clearly what they were doing. Yeah,

(49:38):
when she heard of the news ofthe arrest, missus Serber said,
we miss Jake very much. TheLord just upholds us and we just keep
going. She said she quote hadno hard feelings toward William and that it's
just too bad he's been running aloneso long, and it's also too bad

(50:01):
if he did those things he's accusedof doing. Just the most non emotional
statement. It seems very I wantto say, maybe generous or light.
You know, you hear parents reactingto their child's murder being found, and

(50:23):
it's just racked with revenge and anger, and I don't know if I'd be
capable of being that calm about it. You know, I think if I
was in that position, I wouldbe pretty livid and angry and just spewing

(50:44):
some pretty hateful things because that's mychild. We would not be able to
control ourselves. I don't really relateto where she's coming from, just being
so calm like that. I havea feeling that this is old school religious
stoicism coming from a woman from theMidwest who has probably been working her whole

(51:07):
life raising a million children, andit's just you know, what I mean,
like that strong religious woman that weall have, like our great grandma's
you know that, or she can'treally publicly let you know how she feels.
No, absolutely not, and shewould probably be considered like a hysterical

(51:30):
woman right if she did show emotion. So therefore we don't show emotion and
we go with God. Basically,is what this is is just I have
no feelings about this. I gaveit to the Lord because I can't even
function thinking about it. So thereforewe give it to God and we just

(51:50):
compartmentalize that. It makes a lotof sense. Yeah, it is definitely
the role of the woman to stayextremely calm, even in situations like this
and not show anything that's going onin your heart or your mind. So
I get that that's I'm probably beinga little bit judgmental, but I just

(52:13):
can't imagine having to suppress that andnot freaking out when talking to the media
about my son who's past. Youknow, I just can't imagine that's a
different time. Yeah, that's whatI have to remind myself of all the
time. William was arraigned on Augusttwenty second, nineteen seventy nine, in

(52:39):
Lincoln Nebraska on two counts of kidnappingand first degree murder in the deaths of
Jacob Server and John Simpson. Althoughit was possible to come to a plea
agreement, William chose not to entera plea. Invest theaters from other towns

(53:00):
with unsolved cases believed that William isresponsible for more murders, possibly close to
fifteen between the years of nineteen seventyfive and nineteen seventy nine. YEA,
somewhere between five and fifteen murders.Yeah, and that's a short amount of

(53:23):
time, too, very short,which means there's more. Yeah. Since
they finally had him in custody afterdifficult search, detectives from across the US
were frantically trying to put cases togetherand see if they had enough evidence to
charge William with other crimes. OnMay twentieth, nineteen seventy nine, a

(53:47):
twelve year old boy named Jack HannRahan had gone missing from a local bowling
alley. His nude body was foundten days later in the Dragoon Creek bed.
He was dead with massive injuries tohis chest as well as strangulation marks.
Tapeka was able to make a casefor the murder of Jack Hanrahan,

(54:13):
and William was charged with first degreemurder, kidnapping, and sodomy. William
tried to tell detectives that he hadbeen in the VA hospital at the time
of the Topeka murder, but theydid not believe him. Of course,
you know, if you wanted toget out of a murder, you would

(54:35):
say that you were somewhere else,So of course they didn't believe him.
I was asleep at the time.Right in nineteen eighty, prison psychiatrists noticed
that William had been showing signs ofparanoia and they questioned whether he was mentally
capable to stand trial. Now we'vecome a very long way, because by

(54:57):
nineteen eighty we know that mri arealso now three years old because those came
out in seventy seven, So we'redefinitely making huge strides. So now people
are starting to look at him andgo, wait, you took a giant
shot to the head in the fortiesin World War Two. Yeah, you
might be affected by this. Andthey're really starting to look at him,
going, maybe he's not eccentric,maybe he has mental disturbances going on that

(55:24):
you have just been Oh, freighttrain making whistles, kids love him.
Yeah, they've just been dismissing itand not treating it. Yep. And
again, like we always say,there's plenty of people that have traumatic brain
injuries that don't commit violence that youare able to get treatment, get help.

(55:46):
And I know, even at thistime when there wasn't much treatment or
help for people, there's so manypeople that had injuries that didn't do anything
violent. So it's important to pointthat out. There's definitely not a correlation
of just TBI equals murder. Butthis person, oh my god, I'm

(56:08):
sorry on a T shirt. Butthis person obviously it affected them to the
point where they couldn't control those urges, or they chose not to, or
they chose to live a life ofviolence, or whatever the case may be.
I think the violence is a choice. The traumatic brain injury is something

(56:30):
that you live with and you haveto work on and overcome and whatnot.
But he made the choice to beviolent and victimize people. There's a difference.
We're also forgetting a big part tothis, which is his brain is
pickled. Like he's an alcoholic,Like hardcore alcohol is going on top of

(56:51):
all this too. Son of thetrauma. Yeah, any sort of logic
and reason or you know, let'ssay that his brain is healing at some
point, Well, everything he doesjust completely obliterates all the hard work,
right, Yeah, And even then, there's plenty of alcoholics with brain injuries

(57:13):
and whatever that still wouldn't do this. But you know, it's just part
of his individual story, that's partof what makes him who he is.
But he chose the route of violence. That is definitely a choice. So
since the psychiatrist had really had someextreme concerns about his competency, they began

(57:39):
holding pre trial hearings to determine ifhe was fit to stand trial. Psychiatrists
testified that William had an IQ ofsixty nine, irreparable brain damage from chronic
alcoholism, poor nutrition, and yearsof heart live. When his outbursts towards

(58:04):
the staff were brought up, Williamyelled, quote, the staff gets on
me, and that's why I geton the staff. Do whatever you want
to do, send me to thechair, or do whatever you want.
I don't care. Sadly, thecharges pending against William for Jacob and John's
murders were dropped because the judge ruledstatements he made to police had to be

(58:30):
suppressed. That really blows my mind. Yes, really, after all the
oh my god, all this policework, this, you know, putting
it all together, and well,oh, just all of it. Yeah,

(58:50):
it's extremely frustrating when you feel likethe system fails, and it's on
both sides in my mind. Youknow, when anyone's held in prison and
then it's determined that they were actuallyinnocent, or when someone you know committed
a murder just goes out and roamsfree and they can't convict them, it

(59:15):
just really doesn't make any sense.It's hard to wrap my brain around.
It makes me sad for the families, for the victims, and it's just
unbelievable when something like that happens.Shortly after, the Topeka DA dropped its
charges because it was proven that Williamindeed checked into an Illinois detox center at

(59:37):
the time of jack Hanrahan's murder,so that one we know he actually didn't
do and his alibi was true.And I just can't believe that two times
in the same case, we're talkingabout people that word Hutcher, where they
were when a murder was committed.Yeah. Yeah, In February of nineteen

(01:00:04):
eighty, William was ruled unable tocare for himself, and he was committed
to a mental institution. And it'scrazy that he's just been wandering around for
like forty years, where technically hehas been this entire time unable to care
for himself and should have been committed. Right It's not like just today he

(01:00:25):
woke up and they're like, oh, hey, you're not doing so hot.
He's doing this way the whole time, and it's like they just chalked
it up to, Oh, he'sjust that hopeless dude on the train,
you know, Oh, just alittle different. He's if he was rich,
they would call him eccentric, youknow. And it's like people are
literally they're out there, you're walkingright past them every day. People that

(01:00:49):
should be fifty one fifty right now. It's just bizarre to me, but
it's the truth. This is reallife. He needed the help this whole
time, like you said, forforty years, he needed the help.
He needed to get psychiatric care andtreatment and therapy, and he didn't have
it. Instead, he was juston the streets, on the railroad tracks,

(01:01:14):
crossing the US, being in everystate. And that's scary and sad.
Yeah, it is. Once Williamwas in the hospital, more assessment
and treatment began. He was diagnosedwith chronic alcoholism and it was determined that

(01:01:34):
he was suffering from organic brain syndrome. In nineteen eighty one, a public
defender named Dennis Keif called for areopening of the case and accused the police
of quote sloppy investigative work. Okay, listen, this guy's a really good
attorney. But I also don't likewhat he is saying about the police,

(01:01:58):
because they really did do a goodjob because of as we know here linkage
blindness. You know, there's differentprecincts. They don't talk to each other.
They want to keep their info closeto the vest. They want to
be the one to crack the case, so they won't share info. And
these guys really came together and sharedinfo. And yeah, maybe they did

(01:02:20):
ask a couple of questions or forgotto maybe say hey, here's your rights
first, but they really it's notsloppy, you know it was. It
doesn't really sound like that's the case. It sounds like this is just a
lawyer that wants to get his clientoff and that's the lawyer's job. That's
what I think. He's a goodattorney, but not a bullshit you know.

(01:02:43):
Anyway. I don't know why itreally bothered me on this one,
but it did because they really didcome together. And there's some defense attorneys
and you know, especially we talkabout people that work for the Innocence Project
or something like that. That's understandable. But when someone is not held account
for many crimes that we know theycommitted, but there's not enough evidence in

(01:03:06):
fifteen crimes, you know, butwe know that that person was the prime
suspect. I mean, it justseems like he's doing what an attorney does
and trying to kind of weasel hisclient's way out of being held accountable.
You know, that's his job.I get it. Yeah, but it's

(01:03:29):
really a smarmie thing to do.Ye smarmy exactly. Keith said that William's
confessions were useless since they were afterlittle sleep and immediately after he'd been intoxicated
for an estimated eight days straights.Keif became a champion for William's right,

(01:03:55):
since William was not actually convicted ofanything, but was simply being held for
his own protection. He said thatWilliam had been railroaded puns by the media
who had falsely connected him to multiplecases of missing boys. All the preconceived

(01:04:17):
notions were unavoidable because police had beenconstantly connecting with other jurisdictions and naming William
as a possible suspect in so manycases. His attorney, Dennis Keefe,
was also consistently trying to get Williammoved from maximum security facilities to minimum security.

(01:04:43):
He believed these facilities would be suitablefor William's needs since he hadn't been
convicted of any violence and he simplyneeded medical care. And this is chicken
or the egg, because he wouldhave been convicted were he not so in
need of mental assistance. But he'sin need of mental you know. It's
like I mean pawn. Yeah.It's just definitely seems like a loophole that

(01:05:11):
he's in. Exactly what it is. When William was given a pass to
go on an outing with his lawyer, he instead chose to go to the
Lincoln Fairgrounds to visit his old Carneyfriends. That's what's comfortable, yep,
yep. Despite this, Dennis succeededin having William transferred to a lower security

(01:05:38):
facility, and he was moved therein nineteen eighty one. In December of
nineteen eighty one, William walked outof the Milwaukee facility that he was in
and was later found in the nearbyrailroad yard, just wandering around the tracks
and in the box cars. OnJuly thirteenth, nineteen eighty two, sixty

(01:06:04):
year old William was being housed ina Milwaukee nursing home when he once again
walked out of the facility. Theadministrator of the home was on William's trail
because they remembered, of course,his history of checking into various VA hospitals
whenever he didn't have a home andhe was out on the streets. So

(01:06:29):
the administrator began calling around, andsure enough, William had checked himself into
the Tomo, Wisconsin, VA Hospitalon July fifteenth, but he had checked
out on July twentieth, nineteen eightytwo. On August third, in Rapid

(01:06:49):
City, South Dakota, several peopletold an officer about a hitchhiker on Highway
seventy nine who they noticed behaving strangely. When the cop arrived and ran the
man's information, he saw that Williamwas wanted for the murder of two boys,

(01:07:13):
so of course he took him intothe station I mean, it's crazy
that he's still They're still able tolook up and see like a murder warrant
of two little boys that you knowfrom its decades prior, that is still
active. So then how come you'rein minimum security facilities? And it's only

(01:07:34):
because he technically isn't fit to standtrial, but you still have to be
held accountable. So then what wedo is we put you in a maximum
facility and you don't just walk outand do whatever you want. But thank
you, just believe he's out onthe street. It's insane the fact that
they were able to see that onhis records still, that it wasn't taken

(01:07:54):
out of the system or you know, this is something that our last episode
is it's called a computer glide,right, Oh, we looked it up
and yeah, he was still It'slike, wait, if this is still
there, then how how are theysleeping at night letting him be in a
minimum facility? You know, it'sjust lawyers, that's what this is,
right, It's just kind of gettingthose loopholes in the system. YEP.

(01:08:23):
So shortly after they arrived at thestation, when they ran his information and
found this out, they started diggingmore and they determined that the charges were
not current and that he indeed wasnot wanted for murder. Because he wasn't
actively wanted for that crime, hetechnically couldn't be extradited to Nebraska, but

(01:08:46):
as an agreement with South Dakota police, he voluntarily put himself into the South
Dakota VA Hospital. How often doyou hear about police negotiating where you like
what you want to do because theyknow their hands are tied and if he
just turns around walks out, theycan't do anything about it. So I
feel like they maybe did some sortof strong arming or you know, they

(01:09:10):
must have made something nice for himor whatever it is, because he agreed.
But he's also very comfortable in theVA, so you know, it
was probably not a big deal tohim to just be like, oh,
yeah, i'll go, I'll getthree trip to the VA. You know,
that's his comfort zone. Yes,so bizarre. After only three months
in the VA hospital, he walkedout again and he was just in the

(01:09:38):
wind once more. On May fourth, nineteen eighty three, a minister in
Valley Falls, Kansas, saw Williamleaving the church and when he checked the
collection bowl, he found eight dollarswas missing. He called the police,
who found him and arrested him forthe theft of the church's money. When

(01:10:00):
the minister, of course, Idid the man that he had seen.
He also received a weapons charge forhaving a sharpened railroad spike in his pocket
at the time of the arrest.This is another reason why I do believe
that he was a burglar, aprowler, and he would just kind of
sneak into an unoccupied area, takewhat he could and disappear. Because this

(01:10:26):
is eight dollars from a church.Yeah, it's nothing in just a crime
of opportunity. That's it. Forthis offense. He was given another hospital
term in lieu of jail time.On April fourth, nineteen ninety seven,
William died in a statemental hospital ineastern Kansas. There are at least sixteen

(01:10:56):
young boys that went missing from nineteenseventy two to nineteen seventy nine, with
ages ranging from seven to fourteen acrossthe mid and Southwest that basically armchair investigators
and police officers alike believe that Williammay have killed. Each of these cases

(01:11:18):
involve the victims being found near railroadswitches or tracks, and also within the
timing of some kind of state orcounty fair or carnival that just ended in
the closest town. So it's notjust railroad murders in general. It's looking
at something near the train tracks andthe fairs because they know that dot overlap

(01:11:45):
means William Guattney. There's a fewthere's like a triangle of power here,
you know, there's like certain thingslet all come together when it comes to
him. The Springfield, Illinois StateFair is men several times. You'll recall
this is the town that Joan lethim stay in the garage of her home

(01:12:06):
sometimes. One of the most commoncases connected to William is the murder of
Joseph Spiszak, who went missing fromHammond, Indiana, on January twenty seventh,
nineteen seventy four. Joseph was seennear the railroad tracks the day he
went missing, and many speculate thathe could have been pulled into a train

(01:12:30):
car by William. They speculate thatif he was in the train car,
he could have been raped, murdered, and then discarded anywhere along that rural
train track routes. It speculated thatthis is why Joseph was never found.

(01:12:51):
His family will not rule him legallydead, as police have tried to convince
them to do, because they stillhold out hope that maybe, just one
day, Joseph will return home.Sad so sad. William has also been

(01:13:12):
suspected in the case of thirteen yearold Richard Grenier, who disappeared after going
sledding four blocks from his home aroundfour pm on January seventeenth, nineteen seventy
two, in Pekin, Illinois.To get to the sledding park, Richard
had to cross a railroad switch onthe way there and back. His friends

(01:13:39):
saw him at five thirty pm pullinga blue sled up a hill in his
easily recognizable gold jacket, but afterthat he was never seen again. One
of the boys, who William hadactually confessed to killing, was abducted only
two hundred yards from where Richard hadlast been seen by his friends. That

(01:14:05):
is too much of a coincidence forme. No evidence of Richard has ever
been found, not even the sledor the jacket. Lincoln police also believed
that William was the kidnapper and murdererof eleven year old Jay Dernhill of Omaha,

(01:14:27):
Nebraska. Nine year old Mark Hellmeiglived across from a railroad track and
was found dead inside a railroad boxcar in East Peoria, Illinois, in
nineteen seventy six. The four hfair was at the ground just beyond the
tracks, and local law enforcement hasalways looked at William as the prime suspect

(01:14:55):
in this murder. The same gofor fourteen year old Marty Lancaster of Normal,
Illinois, who went missing on Juneeleventh, nineteen seventy eight, and
was later found dead on July fourteenthnear the railroad tracks. An officer stated

(01:15:16):
that William admitted to being in Normaland seeing Marty on June eleventh, the
day he disappeared. I can't believehe admitted to seeing the kid the same
day. Like, it's that isyear too close, William, What are
you doing? I mean, obviouslyhe's gonna be mind, but the criminal
mind, it's like too close?Back up, what are you doing?

(01:15:39):
What are you doing? Yeah?That one just it doesn't make sense why
he would admit to that. ButI think after all this he must think
he's invincible. Yes. The cornBelt Horse Show was finished up a three

(01:16:00):
day run in town at the timeof Marty's disappearance. There are at least
ten other cases. William is suspectedof being involved with an eight year old
Geoffrey Hanner's skeletal remains were found afterhe had gone missing from a swimming pool
in Ottawa on May twentieth, nineteenseventy nine. He was found by a

(01:16:27):
crew digging a ditch and was identifiedby his clothing. Back at the time
that these murders were happening, Hardingand Edna Simpson, who were victim John
Simpson's parents, said that they wereliving in fear for their safety of their
children. They had eleven year oldtwins, Dennis and Denise, and a

(01:16:51):
twenty one year old daughter, Lois. The two younger ones were not allowed
to go anywhere without a parents,and their older daughter, Lois, actually
moved back into their family home afterJohn's murder. Lois was terrified of going
to or answering the back door oftheir house at night because she was convinced

(01:17:15):
that someone would snatch her in thedark. In nineteen ninety seven, a
man named Thomas Berberige confessed to anAssage County jail counselor that back in nineteen
eighty nine, he had murdered JackHanrahan in Topeka, Kansas. Thomas also

(01:17:39):
told another prisoner in the day roomnamed Lewis Holden that he had killed Jack,
sexually mutilated him, and had knownJack's mother. Nine years later,
Thomas was finally taken to trial.During the trial, then victor Jack's first

(01:18:00):
cousin, Cindy, testified because shehad a daughter with Thomas Berberiche. She
recalled that Thomas came home very angryon May twelfth, nineteen seventy nine,
because he wasn't invited to his daughter'sbirthday party and told her that she was
going to pay and quote, notto be surprised if you find someone in

(01:18:25):
the river with cement boots on.Jack disappeared eight days later. Thomas was
acquitted of Jack's murder, and Williamwas never convicted. So Jack Hanrahan's murder
is still unsolved. That is asuper bizarre twist to me too. The

(01:18:47):
whole the murder of Jack Hanrahan ingeneral is its own episode. Like it's
just crazy that there's all this familyin fighting, and then the baby daddy,
boyfriend's cousin's mother's daughter is you knowwhat I need? It's just like
good connection there Jack, Yeah,and then for them to think he did
it, and then he did it, and then to find out like technically

(01:19:08):
Jack is still unsolved, you know, when most people believe Thomas is the
one that he did that shit,but they just couldn't convict him. But
I just really wanted to make surethat we pointed out that William was not
convicted of Jack Hannerhansburger. Technically,William wasn't convicted of shit. But it's
a good journey to go through.Yeah, I mean, it just seems

(01:19:30):
like they couldn't hold him accountable foranything. I mean, they just kept
getting all these leads and having himas a suspect, but they didn't have
enough. And I know that,like we said, forensic science wasn't up
to the level that it was now. You know, we didn't have the

(01:19:50):
technology to track him. There wasa lot of things at play here that
worked against the detectives and were againstthe ability to put the cases together.
But William is the prime suspect inso many of these murders, and there's

(01:20:11):
something to be said for like yousaid, most people have never been looked
at as a suspect for anything.You know the fact that over and over
again people think he's the only onethat was in the area or that has
this m or whatnot. I mean, there's something going on there. He
definitely committed more crimes than we knowof. Yeah, definitely, that's a

(01:20:38):
fact. And he's just never heldaccountable for any of it because he just
goes to VA hospitals and then theyjust say, oh, he's not mentally
even fit for you know, anything. And I mean everyone knew there was
an issue, but they just figuredit out. We'll just put him back

(01:20:58):
in the VA, they'll take careof it. And so he just gets
pushed along every time. He reallyslips through the cracks in every sense.
You know. I do think thereis a part of that. Part of
the reason is because of the factthat he does have this you know,
this low IQ and he doesn't reallyyou know, it's not like he has

(01:21:23):
some stable job. You know,he's a he's a person like kind of
what you quote unquote like an undesirableand not in my backyard. So it's
like we just pushed him along.It's just it's a close and mental illness
at the time too was you know, he just swept hunder the rug.
It's a secret. We just lockhim away somewhere and that's what they did
to him, and then he wouldjust get out, he would just walk
out of a facility. Yeah,it's unbelievable to me that he was still

(01:21:45):
on the street after possibly committing somany crimes. Yeah. Yeah. And
also the fact that they did connecthim, like they identified and connected the
dots, and we're sure that hewas this David Die that they were looking
for, that that little camp sitethat they found that this transient David Dye

(01:22:09):
had been staying. That's where WilliamGwattony had been staying, right, So
that's who he was. Come on, and then I did exactly. There
is a book that was written that'scalled Slayer of Innocence by Jim Coniver,
and there's a documentary on like YouTubeor I think it's Amazon Prime that's called
Freight Train Slayer of Innocence, andit's all from a very you know,

(01:22:30):
the standpoint that he is guilty.He killed all these people, and I
don't because of the fact that jackHanrahan there are still questions even later that
possibly wasn't him. I didn't necessarilytake these with all the grains of salt,
but their stance is he did it. All he's guilty. If you're
interested in looking into that and allthe articles, if you want to read

(01:22:51):
more on this, like we alwayssay, those links are in our show
notes every week, so if youwant to read more, then definitely check
those out. There's more information.But I mean, this is definitely an
overview and a good collection of allthe information that's out there. But if
you want to go and do itlike a worm time about it, definitely

(01:23:15):
Reddit or any of these articles.There's a lot out there. There's a
lot on Reddit of people like thearmchair investigators laying out the case and why
they believe you know this one.This is what happened regarding this one,
and it's a very good timeline.You know, the redditors, they've done
our work. It's great. Ilove it. I love Reddit so much,

(01:23:38):
man, Oh so good. Butyeah, this one is very interesting.
And the funniest thing too, isthe picture that comes up with this
guy. There's just no better pictureof a railroad killer than someone wearing an
engineer's cat in every picture you findof him, it's so funny to me.

(01:24:00):
He looked like he would be aconductor at a mall train. Blue
and white hat, I mean,you know, the guy like this picture
is so good. So anyway,yeah, railroad, it's really easy to
just become a ghost, yep,railroad letter R. That's why it's a
perfect perfect subject for letter R.Yeah, that's a commonality for sure.

(01:24:25):
Next week we're going to go toan international railroad killer oo overseas. Very
exciting, that'll be. That'll beinteresting because I mean, we have so
many US railroad killers and I'm definitelyinterested in seeing what's going on somewhere else.
You know, we'll be traveling toMarseilles, France. It'll be very

(01:24:49):
exciting. Well, before we getout of here, yeah, thank you
for listening. Like I said,if you want to check out more information
about the case that we covered tonight, always check out the links in our
show notes. If you need someresources for mental health and other support,
there's the links in our show notes. If you want merch, there's spreadless

(01:25:14):
and our patreon is linked in theshow notes. Patreon dot com, slash
Murder Dictionary podcast, And the lastthing before we get out of here,
we just want to say thank youto the new people on our Patreon who
are Hailey, Lana Casey, Jess, Celeste Shell, and Alohalla Candy aka

(01:25:38):
Candice. So thanks you guys.We really appreciate you so much for being
on our Patreon and that's pretty muchit from us. We will be back
next time with an international letter.Our railroad Killer can't wait. So have

(01:25:58):
a great week, take care yourself, stay safe, wear a mask,
and we'll see you next time.See you bye,

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