In this episode we speak to crime writer Mark Billingham about his nineteenth Tom Thorne novel, What the Night Brings, and also about his 'wobbly dog'.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Murder Junction everyone. This week on the show,
we are talking to the one, the only, Mark Billingham,
who this year celebrates count Them Ladies and Gentlemen, his
twenty fifth best selling crime novel, and he still looks
good in tights? Mark, how have you been since last
we met?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I've been very well, that's I don't know how. You
know how I look in tights? I can see you
right now, Okay, but you know, don't, don't paint too
vivid a picture, feel Viewers and listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Were just we were just commenting on the stylishness of
the boudoir that you happen to be in, which apparently
is not your actual.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Notes that I can tell you as for a fact,
that is not Mark's bedroom. I going to you, how
I know this? But that's not Mark's bedroom. Mark?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Quhere are you? I am in the United States of America. Ah,
so it is a bedroom when it is my bedroom?
You know I'm currently sleeping in it.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
So as we see, he could have actually got out
of Bedmark.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I mean, no, no, no, look very don't.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
We don't ask a lot, but you know he actually
have even been made look mate, getting out of bed
and putting a few clothes on would have helped. That's all.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You know what I am because I have five I've
not long been out of bed. I'm going to show
you boys pajama bottoms. Oh oh, I've got blind This
is racy them wearing pajama bottoms.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Ladies and gentlemen. We need to describe Mark Billingham's pajama bottoms,
because that's the short shore.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
This is.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
He is wearing classy checked pajamas, the sorry pajamas. If
you got bored, you could whip off and use to
play Lots and crosses.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, I would, and I would describe them as powder blue,
a powder blue, powder blue.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I would have said eggshell blue, Dunca blue.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
These days, if you go wandering around in pajamas some
of these some of these big department stores, you do
see you do see people wondering around in checked what
look like pajama bottoms, might be jogging bottoms, might be just.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Where are you hanging out? Exactly which department store?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So listen, we've had this discussion about people wondering around
in sliders and white sox in public before, haven't we have?
Have you got sliders and white sox? On Mark, I
have barefoot okay.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Oh oh my word, Ladies and gentlemen, if this was
a visual video podcast, they would love it. I mean,
this is only fans only fans with Mark Billingham. Welcome,
ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
It is it Luca mutual friend who calls these things
lounging pants? Yes, yes, they quite clearly are pajama bottoms.
You can call them.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Lounge but you can add another twenty pounds to the
price if you say lounging lounging trousers. Well, now, Mark,
before we come to you, I'm going to ask my
friend for seeing what he's been up to, because I
haven't heard from the seen in the last two weeks,
which is very long time for you and me, isn't
it vast?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, I mean we've messaged each other on the WhatsApp,
but we haven't spoken. Yes, yes, but you to go.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
It does not constitute a message. It's not a conversation.
What have you been up to?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Just bits and pieces a few events, and I've been
playing a lot of cricket, actually coaching. I keep trying
to get Mark interested, and Mark sort of hit he
gives he gives me the come hither rise, and then
he just.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Had to come hither pajamas as well. It looks, but
in the way there's a lot of hithering. You're not
up for playing in the seams Star eleven crickets.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I am now, I am. I mean, I need some
kind of exercise. I've been playing. I've been playing pickleball.
Oh my word, it's a bizarre game and I've been
playing it far too much, and I've now completely knacked
my shoulder. I have either a frozen shoulder or a
torn rotated cuff. I don't quite know what the different.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Be careful, you're not twenty five.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Anymore, I know, so I can't really do anything. But
when I am fitting, well, yeah, I want to play crickets.
Although you will quickly see that when you say to me,
are you a batter or a bowler? I'm a fielder
and not a particularly.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I think the phrase you're looking for is all rounder, Mark,
You're an all rounder, all round rubbish.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Everything that sounds fit right in Mark. But pickleball, apparently
is the new opium of the middle class elite messes.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
I think that's cocaine, my friend. You're mixing that up.
You're missing out pickleball and coke. Actually that's not a
bad afternoon because I've.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Never played it, but I hear some of my it's
like a.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Cross between badminton and table tennis. It's it's tennis. It's
tennis for people whose knees are knackered. So it's much
much smaller court and it's got strange rules and scoring
and whatever.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
But do you play with a ball or a pickle
or what.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
You play with? Ball? You play with a kind of
plastic ball with holes in it, so it does bounce. Uh,
it's not. It's not growing as fast as paddle is
in the UK. Paddle is the one that's getting bigger UK.
So that's the one that's a bit like squash. It
has walls.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Do you sit in an armchair and play pickleball? Because
he said it was easy on the knees.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It's easy on the knees just because you don't have
you have much less ground to cover and you only
ever really played doubles, so you know, it's it's it's
much less exhausting. Why pickle I have no idea why
it's called pickleball, I really don't.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
It doesn't appear I only play sports that you can
play on elephant back. I think anything else is just
common and and and and not very fun.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
How many sports can you play on the back of
an elephant?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Elephants and crosses? You can play on the back of
an elephant's big enough, just take up his chalk, dripe
your grid and so not and crosses Elephant Paul. Do
you know Scotland were world champions at Elephant Paul for
a very long time?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Really is he making this up?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Now? This is this is this is God's honest truth.
And then I don't know what happened and either the
elephants died or they got depressed being in Glasgow or whatever.
But I don't think we're world champions anymore at Elephant Paul.
But there you are, that's true. So anyway, Mark, what
are you doing in the States.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm having a holiday, mate. I mean, I've got sort
of so that I've got a new book coming out
in about two weeks and then things are quite busy,
so I'm just having having a few weeks.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
This is the calm before the storm.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It is the calm before the storm. Although I've been
doing quite a lot of work. I have been working
every day over here because I've got a book to finish.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So yeah, and where in the States are you?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I am in on the Gulf Coast of Florida.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh great, so your your calm before the storm is
in a hurricane location that although.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Hurricane season, ironic, hurricane season doesn't started for another few weeks.
So I'm okay, I'm coming home tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I just I just saw the film Twisters.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, your ship, it is it about the ice Lolly
because I like them. I watched a film about them.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I know you have time off, Mark, but we are
we are here to talk about about Tom.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Here to ruin your holiday mate, tell us about the
new book.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
We're here to talk about Tom Thorne nineteen. Wow, what
a series and the longevity of this, of this wonderful
police procedural. Let's give us, first of all, the thirty
second pitch or the one minute pitch, whoever long you
want to.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
It's hard, it's hard to even give you a pitch
that's that long, because it's it's a book that it's
a book that's really hard to talk about because it
has two, maybe three big shocks towards the end of
the book. It's the first time I've ever I've ever
had to put a note at the end of the book,
really really urging readers not to give the end away.
I mean, we never want that to happen. We all
hate spoilers, right, but this is the one book where
(07:45):
I've had to put a thing and go, please, please,
don't tell anybody what happens at the end of this
Preventually somebody will, of course they will, but it's it's
basically okay. It starts with time give us the title.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
The title.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
The title, it's called What the Night Brings, And it
starts at the end of an operation that Thorn is
involved with. And he walks out at the end of
this operation that involves armed officers and all that kind
of stuff, and the operation has gone well, and he
walks out and it's you know, the early hours of
the morning, and the streets are all sealed off, and
he comes apoon a group of uniformed officers who were
(08:23):
keeping the streets sealed off. So they're just lounging against
a squad car eating donuts, and Thorn starts talking to
them and goes, oh, you haven't got a spare one
of those, and they go, no, sorry, just got before
these are left for us as a prison and they
hold up the box that says thanks for everything you
do that was left on their squad car. And the
next day they're all dead.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Mate.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And so it starts with this attack on the group
of police officers, and then there are further attacks, and
so Thorn has to try and find out what's going on,
and when he does, it gets very dark, very quickly.
And Thorn.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Proverbial can of worms, Yeah, huge, huge can.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
And have you ever had to write a note at
the end of your books telling people not to give
away the ending? Do they reach the end of your
book in the first place?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Well, what I was going to say was that, I mean,
this is the nineteenth Thorn novel, so almost two decades
of writing this character, and with what five six books
into our series, and we're if we're still alive in
another fifteen odd years, that will be magnificent. But I mean,
you must have learned a lot along the way about
Tom Thorne tell us about some of the things that
(09:36):
as well. I mean, that's the thing that I haven't learned.
I haven't learned any more about him than the reader has.
I don't I don't you know, I genuinely don't have
anything mapped out for him. I don't have a bible,
I don't have a kind of dosche of facts on him.
I've said this many times. I just stuck him on
the page and in that first book and decided to
see where he went. And yeah, I certainly didn't think
(09:56):
I'd be writing about him twenty five years later. If
you have to describe it to new readers, if you
have who.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Is okay, Well, he's a homicide detective who works in
North London. He likes Tottenham Hospit takeaway, Curry country music.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That's kind of enough.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
True, he's not bad.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Blotted biography. But you know what I mean, I've just
been I've just read Funny Enough, I've just read the
twenty fifth John Reabers novel. I've just read Rankin's latest novel.
You know, he's still he's still right at the top
of his game, thirty twenty five books into a series.
You know, people like Michael Connolly, Val McDermott still knocking
(10:44):
out of the park thirty oddg is in.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
What I'm hearing Vass is that these guys aren't going
to stop and give us a chance to catch out.
That's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing greedy. We're greedy, We're
too good, We're greedy. This is our patch, So off
everyone else.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I know, we should all step aside and let you
whipper snappers have a chance. But it's not going to happen.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Isn't that the purpose of a lifetime achievement? We should
start fast. We should start a lifetime Achievement awards and
just give them to people we want to stop writing, right.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Lifetime achievement. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
So Mark, you're the first recipient of the lifetime Achievement.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Otherwise known as You've had your time, now shove off.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
It could be like those donuts in Mark's book.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, the Poison Donuts.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Poison Donuts Award. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
You're still clearly having a lot of fun writing these books,
and of course they're still supremely popular. The Tom Thorne.
So what keeps it alive for you?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Well? Doing other stuff, doing other stuff. I mean, this
is the first Tom Thorne book I've written for a
few years, because I took some time off to start
writing a new series featuring a character called decl Miller.
But the series that has God help us jokes in it.
So this is you know, I've come back to him
after a couple of years and that, and that's always helped,
having having those breaks, writing standalones, doing other stuff, collaborating
(12:12):
with with other people on various other projects. No, I
mean I could ever. I don't think I could ever
just write the same book. You know, a thorn book
and a thorn book, and a thorn book and a
thorn book. You have to have a bit of a
break or you go by me.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You need to have the rows with the thorns, don't
you every down?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Hey, yeah, you see why he's on fire, on fire,
but well many many requests have come in for me
to set him on fire, but we'll refrain.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I've refrained somehow. You mentioned the Declan Miller series. I mean,
you know, I love those books. So it began with
the Last Dance, and I think the latest is called
The Wrong the Wrong Hands, Give us, give us, you know,
let's plug those books as well.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, they're they're there. They are kind of to the
darkness of Tom Thorne. They are still they are still books,
the central character of which is a homicide detective, but
he works in Blackpool. So the books are set in
the North. He's very very different. He's a man who's
struggling with grief. He's gone back to work after his
wife has been murdered, and gone back to work much
too soon, and grief has turned him into somebody who
(13:20):
just doesn't give the monkeys about who he upsets or
what he says or what he does. He's still a
good detective and the books and the books are still
about grief and death and loss and pain and roads,
but not quite it's not quite as on the nose
as it love.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Something quite special with those books, because, as you say,
they are about these themes of grief and death and violence,
and yet they have that dark humor that sets them apart,
that that adds and dimension, and that's got to be
tough to do well.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
That's I mean, that was kind of why I wanted
to write those books are because there are lots of
people that say that humor and seriousness are kind of opposite,
and they're absolutely not. They're absolutely not. You know, the
opposite of seriousness is triviality, and humor that all the
best kind of humor is rarely trivial. So I wanted
I wanted to write books where I could, you know,
(14:09):
still be dealing with serious themes, but still occasionally go
and here's a joke, which which I don't get to
do with Tom Thorne. I mean, there's there's humor in
those books too, but they are that is very very
dark humor.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
You know you're talking, you're preaching to the converted. In
both of us used dry humor. Humor in Armist tell
Us tell Us the plot of the Wrong Hands, that's
the latest in the Declan Miller.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, the Wrong Hands just starts with a couple of
local ne'er do wells do stage what they think is
a brilliant robbery in the toilets of Blackpool railway Station
and the steeler businessman's briefcase, thinking oh, this could god
knows what this could contain. This could contain all sorts
of brilliant stuff. And when they open it, it does
(14:51):
contain some beautiful signet rings, but unfortunately they're still on
a pair of hands. They're on a pair of waxy,
severed hands in this briefcase, which then turns up on
Declan Miller's doorsteps, so he has to take it from there.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I mean, both of those books you've described the openings
are just they're just wonderfully cinematic. I mean, they draw
you straight in. Is this a gift? Mark Billingham? Is
this a gift?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
To be honest? We all you know what It's like?
The opening is so important, isn't it, Because it's all
we've got. It's all we've got to kind of drag
readers kicking and screaming into our books, you know what
I mean. I mean they look at the back of them,
and they look at the blurb and all that stuff.
But those first few pages have really got to got
to reel them in, because if you're a reader like me,
if those first few pages don't, I'm going to give up.
(15:37):
I'm going to give up and put that book down
and pick up another one. I mean, I know this
is a kind of controversial view because some people, you know,
my wife included, as a reader, will just always finish
a book. She can't bear not to finish a book
because she thinks she's somehow, she's somehow letting the writer down.
And I'm just like, no, you're not.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And that's why she is a better person than she's
a better person than me.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
But do you know what the writer doesn't care because
you've bought their books, so they're happy. You're you're not
letting the writer down if you don't finish their book.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Could be fair. I used to be like that, but
I've taken on your philosophy over the last few years
because I just get sent far too many. Of course,
some of them you just don't get on with it. It
might be a great book for someone else, it just
might not.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
I don't even finish writing my books these days.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Stop or it might not be the right book for
you at that time.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
You might come back to that book five years down
the road and go, oh, why didn't Why didn't I
feel like this first time around? You know, because I
was not through a book. Don't plow through a book
if you're not enjoying it, just don't.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And has your has your method your method amongst the
madness your process change in all these you I know
it's a bit of a a bit of a literary
style question, but we've got to get serious too.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so. It's
getting that opening, it's absolutely getting that opening right, But
other than that, there isn't really a plan. You know,
that opening will just leave lots of questions. You know,
you get this briefcase with seven hands in whose hands? Why?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
What's going on? And I just want to take it
from there. And it was the same with the opening
of What the Night Brings. I had that opening with
these donuts and these cops.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
How did that come to you? How did that come
to you?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
That came to me from talking from talking to somebody
we all know a writer, an ex copper called Graham Bartlett,
who told me that I don't know whether it was
here or some colleagues of his who had once been
left some donuts a gift. And of course, you know,
being twisted, twisted buggers that we are, you immediately think
(17:37):
what can I do with.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
That cliche in cop circles, right, that cops love donuts.
But that's more American, right, But I mean they're also
Greg pastries and.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Gregg's Greg Greg Gregstoke bake would be.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Bacon sandwich, Beacon sandwich.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
But because the book is largely about the modern attitude
to the police, which have changed, you know, to get
those attitudes have changed a lot over the over recent years,
and how could they not, how could they not in
the wake of things like Sarah Everard and that kind
of stuff. You know, if you're going to write police,
modern police procedurals, you have to take that on board.
(18:15):
Otherwise you're just writing cartoons.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Well, let's explore that a bit further. As you say,
attitudes to the police have changed, and that's reflected or
it has to be reflected in crime fiction. How has
crime fiction changed in the period that you've been writing,
the one hundred and seven years that you've been.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I mean, I think I think there are rather
more writers who are this sounds a bit I don't
mean taking on more serious subjects, because crime fiction has
always dealt with serious subjects, but has become slightly less afraid, right,
I think, to take on social issues, which I think
used to be used to be the in the kind
(18:56):
of wheelhouse of literary fiction, but isn't so much any more.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know. It certainly was in the kind of sixties
and seventies. Literally writers would would would would look at
social issues and look at the world, And I'm not sure,
I'm not sure they do quite so much anymore.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
They just look at themselves these days, They just look
at themselves, at their navels, well, you know, I'm not
going to go quite that far, but but crime fiction
has sort of stepped up.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I mean crime fiction has always done it, you know.
I mean there are writers going back to people like
you know, uh, pair Pair Wilou and Marge Choal who
used to do that in In in the Martin Is
that the Mine in the Martin Beck novels. And I
think europe European crime fictions as has always done it
to an extent, but I think I think more so
in recent years. I mean, obviously, you know, publishing has
(19:42):
changed and all all those kinds of things, and you know,
ebooks and blah blah blah. But uh, what crime fiction
has done is just become so much more massively popular.
And also, of course these guys these days we get
to meet up at festivals and stuff. Those things didn't
even exist when I started.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Is that right? Wow?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
There were there weren't There weren't crime fiction festivals. There
just weren't.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, it was all tablets and.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, but the weird thing, you'd occasionally get invited to
a proper literary festival. Do you occasionally get invited to you know, hey,
yeah or Cheltenham or whatever where you'd be one of
you know, a couple of genre writers the late Relief. Yea,
you'd be the night reef. Oh it's you, you're the
crime writer. And then and then kind of in the
early two thousands, late nineties, early two thousands, a couple
(20:30):
just sort of started happening. There was a thing called
dead on Deansgate which started and then you know, and now,
of course there's one, there's one a month.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Well it's a quiet month, of it's one a month, right.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
What you've also what you also see is lots and
lots of smaller non festivals, but small events in smaller
towns where it's inevitably crime and thriller writers that they
tend to invite along because they know there's lots of people.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No, of course, and it's great because we all get
to meet up and get together and hook up and
catch up with each other. And I guess there's a
demand for these things. I mean, they wouldn't happen if
there wasn't.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
You know, people people pay to come to these things.
I mean, vas you make a lot of money from
your writing, a bit less from your only fans page,
but you're on like every every sort of festival going, right,
you must be earning a pretty penny from that, right.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I do a lot of events, as do you, as
does Mark, and I reckon that the secret to being
invited to lots and lots of events.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Cheap not being an ass.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
We all know writers who go along and they're full
of themselves and or they maybe they hog the panel,
or they refuse to chair when they're asked to chair
because they think they're too important and big to chair,
or they just behave like an ass, and then they
just don't get invited back. Whereas if you are companionable,
you you know, you're you're you're friendly, you're warm, and
you have some interesting things to say and maybe a
(21:53):
dash of humor word spreads, and you just get invited
to more things.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I'll definitely try that in the future. Then, as supposed to.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Your face is going to be a hindrance, but you
know we can.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
The thing to say, though, is not every writer, and
we three are certainly exceptions of this, but some writers
don't enjoy it. You know, we very much enjoy standing
up on stage and showing off. You know that for
me has always been the fun part the job is
putting your ars in the chair and right in the
The fact that you then get to turn up to
travel around the world and stand up on stages and
talk about it. It's brilliant, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Well, not just that you're not just standing on stage talking,
you are standing on stage singing and playing the guitar
as well. Someone tell us about that, because that is
that's you know, that is the stuff of schoolboy dreams.
You've played Glastonbury schoolboy dream?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yes? No, absolutely. We started this silly bit of nonsense
a band of crime writers, the fun loving crime writers,
way back now, kind of seven years ago or something,
just as a bit of fun. You know. It started
at at a festival in New Orleans where a few
of us jumped on stage and you know, started singing
a few songs, and then it took off to the
point where we were suddenly doing loads of book vessevals
(23:03):
and doing shows in Iceland and Canada. And yeah, then
we got asked to play Glastonbury.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I mean bonkers, right, didn't I didn't you tell me
an amazing story of being backstage? And was it Paul
McCartney or no, it was a really famous group who
whose beer you stole? Or they stole your beer.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Paul McCartney listening McCartney's beer. You know, I wouldn't even
talk to you guys. No, it was it was hawk winned.
It was a bangled Hawkwind coincidentally one of it one
of Inspector John Reebis's favorite bands. No, No, they were.
They were on the same bill as us, on the
same stage as as Glastonbury. And you have you have backstage,
(23:42):
you have these fridges with your name on and so
there's you know, hawk Wind and Keen and then you
know the funnel up. We're taking pictures of these fridges
PbD with they were. But the thing is, I've been
so we were so absurdly grateful to be asked to
play that. When I got asked what our rider was,
(24:02):
you know, the entertainment rider, I just said, oh, I know,
half a dozen bottles of beer and a bottle of
red wine for val Valbing Valmont Dermot as the kind
of singer the man. And they were as good as
they were. And we opened the fridge and there that's
what there was. But it was the hottest day of
the year. It was like one hundred degrees and we
drank everything within about two minutes and then Stuart Neville,
a brilliant lead guitarist, came over and said, you go
(24:25):
say what Hawkwen's French, I apologize for that impression that.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I Peasley impression, and Hawkman says no, And then and.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
There was all the alcohol in the world. It was like, oh,
so yeah, we did help ourselves a bit of Hawkins beer.
And when we played Lust and we for the second
time last summer, we asked for a lot more. This
time we were right divers. This time Chris Brooke Myer
asking for personalized towels and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I broke. You can't take him anywhere. He's like, Mary Ann.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Serious. It's that thing of collab because what we do
is a solitary thing, right. We sit on our own
and we you know, tell these stories. So to be
able to collaborate with other people on other projects with mates,
it's just a brilliant thing, right, It's a brilliant.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
It is it is, and we should say that. You know,
you are one of the most gregarious, charming, debonair talented
people on the circuit, and you make you've been I mean,
I remember when Vasa and I first started writing, it
would have been very easy for you just to tell
Vas to get lost, but you didn't. You were charitable,
(25:36):
you were hospitable. You took them under your wing, you know,
when you didn't need to. You could have run out
the door like the rest of us do, but you didn't.
And that speaks volumes Mark.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Again. To be serious. It's just what Vas said earlier.
You just just don't be a dick. It's really you know,
it's it's not rocket science. And so many people are
incredibly nice to me when I started, you know, people
people who have since become people like Ian Rankin, John Harvey,
an American writer like Michael Connolly, who you know, these are.
(26:08):
These were massive, massive rioters, but they were so welcoming,
and generally, generally speaking, the crime fiction genre is welcoming.
You know, if you turn up and you've got really
sharp elbows and you behave like a bit of a dick,
it won't be welcoming for too long. But largely largely
there's room for there's room for everybody, except when you're
kind of young whipper snappers like you two, and we're
not going to move over quite quite as easily as
(26:30):
you want to.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Now, all of these different talents in an alternate universe.
You know, you're not a writer. You're not even an
actor because you started off as an actor. You're not
a singer, at least not one who's paid a fortune
to play Glastonbury, et cetera. So what are you? What
is Mark Billingham? Then?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Listen? I've always, I've always, you know, I joke about
all the different things I've done being a concerted effort
to avoid a proper job, but largely I never have.
I've had one proper job in my whole life, which
was when I was a cleaner at Buttling's one summer
when I was like seventeen, or just the worst job
in the world, horrendous job, absolutely horrible, And the rest
(27:11):
of the time has just been being a performer of
one sort or another, you know, just being a show off.
You know, whether it's a show off writing books, because
what we do is a performance. When you write book,
we're trying to give the best performance we can't. You know,
we're right as a popular fiction, aren't we. You know,
we're writing to entertain readers, to keep those pages turning,
all that stuff. Obviously, entertainment can mean a whole lot
(27:32):
of different things in the context of crime fiction. But
that's that's largely what we are, so I'd have to
do something that was you know, and I'm not sure
what else there is to do. Most of them. Again,
I studied that shit when I was a drama student.
When I was a drama Oh yeah, I can listen.
(27:53):
I can do what I can. I can walk against
the wind and I'm trapped in a box. I can
do all that stuff. I can even do a bit
of kind of seventeenth century dancing, because I.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Have seventeenth century dancing. Now hang up, yeah, oh tell
us about that.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Well, because I was a drama student, so all the
ship that goes with that, you know, leg warmers and saying,
you know, I'm a drama student. In the early nineteen
eighties revision of you don't yeah, it was it was
at that time. It was around that we all thought
we were the kids from fame, but we were in Birmingham.
(28:29):
We're the kids from fame.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And now you know, you've got Glipsey pajamas on in
in Florida.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
General Mark Billingham available for kids, parties, barmits, christenings, weddings,
whatever you need.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Circumcisions oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, like I said, I've got I've got a bunch
of events coming up. We're doing some stuff together, aren't
we a beer?
Speaker 3 (28:52):
We are, We're doing We're doing the you know, the
highlight of your career, Woking, right, Woking town Hall Library
were going to be doing Woking only. I'm pretty sure
that John Lennon played Woking Library at one stage. Don't
quote me, don't quote me over. Sim Cahn has also
been there. Yeah, but yeah, all the greats all there.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Well, you know this is where they wrote War of
the World. It's Gee Wells wrought it here in Woking,
and the Aliens they land in Woking.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I know that it being a question I've asked in
a quiz. I am a big fan of a quiz,
as you know.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yes, and he built He built a mausoleum for one
hundred years for my career from my career, built something,
didn't he What was it?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
No? No, no, no no. The first mosque in the country
is here as well. Okay, first purpose built mosque in
Britain is in Woking, and it was built by a jew.
There you are not Jewish, gentleman built a mosque. He
also was going to build a church, a synagogue and
a Hindu temple, but he died. I think only I
(30:05):
think only the church and the mosque were built. But
there you are.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's also it's Woking, also the town called Malice in the.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
It is of course mister Weller right is from here.
So it is the place to be mate, and we
will show you why it is called a town called Malice.
When you are here, ladies and gentlemen, but you know
where else are you playing? Come on tell our audience
because the book is out in Okay, it brings.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Us two weeks fashioned diary which I have to look
at this. Oh so in the next couple of weeks,
I am going to be in I am going to
be in Liverpool. I'm going to be in Dundee with
the fund of my crimewriters. I'm going to be in Manchester.
I'm going to be in London. I'm going to be
in mold I'm going to be in Malvern. I'm going
(30:51):
to be in Wantage and Hillingdon and Letchworth and Woking
and Bath. And then it's time for it's time for
a long lie down.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I think some tour ladies and gentlemen, wherever you are
in the UK, you are no more than twenty miles
from Mark Billingham at some point, it can't escape. Do
come along to one of his many many stores because
and find out what the night brings?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I love that. See that segue was really good.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
That's Rarey, that's very good. Should get why you should
get a cookie? At least you finish off with Mark.
What are you writing next?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I'm writing the third decla Miller book, which as yet
doesn't have a title, which drives me absolutely crazy. I
don't know about you, guys. If i'm if I'm writing
it's horrendous, isn't it. It just says, you know, book
twenty three or something. So I'm coinry writing that. Mindie,
What the Night Rings didn't have a title until until
after I'd finished it, and then that came to me.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Any any Are you allowed to tell us anything about
the plot.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Of the new Miller book. Yeah, it's about it's about.
It's about a wobbly dog. Oh, yes, lobby, a wobbly
sausage dog. Who. Okay, I'll tell you exactly what happened.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I got.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I got I was walking my dog. I have a
small sausage dog and I was walking her in a park,
my wife and I walking her in a part near us,
and she was attacked by two excel bullies, big dogs,
big scary dogs, and they're big scary owner who came
over and I asked him kind of politely to put
his dog on a lead, and he and he threatened
(32:27):
to stab me, or threatened to stab me up in
common parlance of young people. And of course that was
the you know, that was the end of the incident.
It was horrible incidents. But then those things live in
your brain for a while and turn into other things,
and that became the start of the book. But it doesn't,
it doesn't, it doesn't end the way it ended in
real life.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
That's good, I mean, that's I mean, it's a horror,
horrendous thing to happen to you, but it's good that
you've been able to repurposeful it and make money out
of it and have a number one best seller. That
is the ultimate revenge, ladies and gentlemen, The ultimate revenge
served to you.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Cold he ends up. He ends up in at the
bottom of a lake exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Just remember, nothing can happen to the dog, right Mark
we have to do an outro now. But it has been.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Wonderful, lovely, it's been lovely. I mean it's it's it's
always a joy being in Mark's bedroom, you know, and
this one is on the other side of the world,
so it's it's even better. And that brings us to
the end of another episode. Ladies and gentlemen, once again,
if you've liked the show, can we ask you to
leave a of you sign up for regular episodes using
your favorite podcast that and please do spread the word.
(33:38):
That's neither you nor I have a dog, But if
you were to have a dog, what would you call it?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I would be a burger dog, not a sausage dog.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
A burger dog, A hot dog. Right cool. On that
culinary note, we have been your friends, the Red Hot
Chili writers on Murder Junction. Tune in
Welcome to Murder Junction everyone. This week on the show,
we are talking to the one, the only, Mark Billingham,
who this year celebrates count Them Ladies and Gentlemen, his
twenty fifth best selling crime novel, and he still looks
good in tights? Mark, how have you been since last
we met?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I've been very well, that's I don't know how. You
know how I look in tights? I can see you
right now, Okay, but you know, don't, don't paint too
vivid a picture, feel Viewers and listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Were just we were just commenting on the stylishness of
the boudoir that you happen to be in, which apparently
is not your actual.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Notes that I can tell you as for a fact,
that is not Mark's bedroom. I going to you, how
I know this? But that's not Mark's bedroom. Mark?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Quhere are you? I am in the United States of America. Ah,
so it is a bedroom when it is my bedroom?
You know I'm currently sleeping in it.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
So as we see, he could have actually got out
of Bedmark.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I mean, no, no, no, look very don't.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
We don't ask a lot, but you know he actually
have even been made look mate, getting out of bed
and putting a few clothes on would have helped. That's all.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You know what I am because I have five I've
not long been out of bed. I'm going to show
you boys pajama bottoms. Oh oh, I've got blind This
is racy them wearing pajama bottoms.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Ladies and gentlemen. We need to describe Mark Billingham's pajama bottoms,
because that's the short shore.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
This is.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
He is wearing classy checked pajamas, the sorry pajamas. If
you got bored, you could whip off and use to
play Lots and crosses.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, I would, and I would describe them as powder blue,
a powder blue, powder blue.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I would have said eggshell blue, Dunca blue.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
These days, if you go wandering around in pajamas some
of these some of these big department stores, you do
see you do see people wondering around in checked what
look like pajama bottoms, might be jogging bottoms, might be just.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Where are you hanging out? Exactly which department store?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So listen, we've had this discussion about people wondering around
in sliders and white sox in public before, haven't we have?
Have you got sliders and white sox? On Mark, I
have barefoot okay.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Oh oh my word, Ladies and gentlemen, if this was
a visual video podcast, they would love it. I mean,
this is only fans only fans with Mark Billingham. Welcome,
ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
It is it Luca mutual friend who calls these things
lounging pants? Yes, yes, they quite clearly are pajama bottoms.
You can call them.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Lounge but you can add another twenty pounds to the
price if you say lounging lounging trousers. Well, now, Mark,
before we come to you, I'm going to ask my
friend for seeing what he's been up to, because I
haven't heard from the seen in the last two weeks,
which is very long time for you and me, isn't
it vast?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, I mean we've messaged each other on the WhatsApp,
but we haven't spoken. Yes, yes, but you to go.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
It does not constitute a message. It's not a conversation.
What have you been up to?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Just bits and pieces a few events, and I've been
playing a lot of cricket, actually coaching. I keep trying
to get Mark interested, and Mark sort of hit he
gives he gives me the come hither rise, and then
he just.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Had to come hither pajamas as well. It looks, but
in the way there's a lot of hithering. You're not
up for playing in the seams Star eleven crickets.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I am now, I am. I mean, I need some
kind of exercise. I've been playing. I've been playing pickleball.
Oh my word, it's a bizarre game and I've been
playing it far too much, and I've now completely knacked
my shoulder. I have either a frozen shoulder or a
torn rotated cuff. I don't quite know what the different.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Be careful, you're not twenty five.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Anymore, I know, so I can't really do anything. But
when I am fitting, well, yeah, I want to play crickets.
Although you will quickly see that when you say to me,
are you a batter or a bowler? I'm a fielder
and not a particularly.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I think the phrase you're looking for is all rounder, Mark,
You're an all rounder, all round rubbish.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Everything that sounds fit right in Mark. But pickleball, apparently
is the new opium of the middle class elite messes.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
I think that's cocaine, my friend. You're mixing that up.
You're missing out pickleball and coke. Actually that's not a
bad afternoon because I've.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Never played it, but I hear some of my it's
like a.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Cross between badminton and table tennis. It's it's tennis. It's
tennis for people whose knees are knackered. So it's much
much smaller court and it's got strange rules and scoring
and whatever.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
But do you play with a ball or a pickle
or what.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
You play with? Ball? You play with a kind of
plastic ball with holes in it, so it does bounce. Uh,
it's not. It's not growing as fast as paddle is
in the UK. Paddle is the one that's getting bigger UK.
So that's the one that's a bit like squash. It
has walls.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Do you sit in an armchair and play pickleball? Because
he said it was easy on the knees.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It's easy on the knees just because you don't have
you have much less ground to cover and you only
ever really played doubles, so you know, it's it's it's
much less exhausting. Why pickle I have no idea why
it's called pickleball, I really don't.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
It doesn't appear I only play sports that you can
play on elephant back. I think anything else is just
common and and and and not very fun.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
How many sports can you play on the back of
an elephant?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Elephants and crosses? You can play on the back of
an elephant's big enough, just take up his chalk, dripe
your grid and so not and crosses Elephant Paul. Do
you know Scotland were world champions at Elephant Paul for
a very long time?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Really is he making this up?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Now? This is this is this is God's honest truth.
And then I don't know what happened and either the
elephants died or they got depressed being in Glasgow or whatever.
But I don't think we're world champions anymore at Elephant Paul.
But there you are, that's true. So anyway, Mark, what
are you doing in the States.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm having a holiday, mate. I mean, I've got sort
of so that I've got a new book coming out
in about two weeks and then things are quite busy,
so I'm just having having a few weeks.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
This is the calm before the storm.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It is the calm before the storm. Although I've been
doing quite a lot of work. I have been working
every day over here because I've got a book to finish.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So yeah, and where in the States are you?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I am in on the Gulf Coast of Florida.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh great, so your your calm before the storm is
in a hurricane location that although.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Hurricane season, ironic, hurricane season doesn't started for another few weeks.
So I'm okay, I'm coming home tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I just I just saw the film Twisters.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, your ship, it is it about the ice Lolly
because I like them. I watched a film about them.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I know you have time off, Mark, but we are
we are here to talk about about Tom.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Here to ruin your holiday mate, tell us about the
new book.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
We're here to talk about Tom Thorne nineteen. Wow, what
a series and the longevity of this, of this wonderful
police procedural. Let's give us, first of all, the thirty
second pitch or the one minute pitch, whoever long you
want to.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
It's hard, it's hard to even give you a pitch
that's that long, because it's it's a book that it's
a book that's really hard to talk about because it
has two, maybe three big shocks towards the end of
the book. It's the first time I've ever I've ever
had to put a note at the end of the book,
really really urging readers not to give the end away.
I mean, we never want that to happen. We all
hate spoilers, right, but this is the one book where
(07:45):
I've had to put a thing and go, please, please,
don't tell anybody what happens at the end of this
Preventually somebody will, of course they will, but it's it's
basically okay. It starts with time give us the title.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
The title.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
The title, it's called What the Night Brings, And it
starts at the end of an operation that Thorn is
involved with. And he walks out at the end of
this operation that involves armed officers and all that kind
of stuff, and the operation has gone well, and he
walks out and it's you know, the early hours of
the morning, and the streets are all sealed off, and
he comes apoon a group of uniformed officers who were
(08:23):
keeping the streets sealed off. So they're just lounging against
a squad car eating donuts, and Thorn starts talking to
them and goes, oh, you haven't got a spare one
of those, and they go, no, sorry, just got before
these are left for us as a prison and they
hold up the box that says thanks for everything you
do that was left on their squad car. And the
next day they're all dead.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Mate.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And so it starts with this attack on the group
of police officers, and then there are further attacks, and
so Thorn has to try and find out what's going on,
and when he does, it gets very dark, very quickly.
And Thorn.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Proverbial can of worms, Yeah, huge, huge can.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
And have you ever had to write a note at
the end of your books telling people not to give
away the ending? Do they reach the end of your
book in the first place?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Well, what I was going to say was that, I mean,
this is the nineteenth Thorn novel, so almost two decades
of writing this character, and with what five six books
into our series, and we're if we're still alive in
another fifteen odd years, that will be magnificent. But I mean,
you must have learned a lot along the way about
Tom Thorne tell us about some of the things that
(09:36):
as well. I mean, that's the thing that I haven't learned.
I haven't learned any more about him than the reader has.
I don't I don't you know, I genuinely don't have
anything mapped out for him. I don't have a bible,
I don't have a kind of dosche of facts on him.
I've said this many times. I just stuck him on
the page and in that first book and decided to
see where he went. And yeah, I certainly didn't think
(09:56):
I'd be writing about him twenty five years later. If
you have to describe it to new readers, if you
have who.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Is okay, Well, he's a homicide detective who works in
North London. He likes Tottenham Hospit takeaway, Curry country music.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That's kind of enough.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
True, he's not bad.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Blotted biography. But you know what I mean, I've just
been I've just read Funny Enough, I've just read the
twenty fifth John Reabers novel. I've just read Rankin's latest novel.
You know, he's still he's still right at the top
of his game, thirty twenty five books into a series.
You know, people like Michael Connolly, Val McDermott still knocking
(10:44):
out of the park thirty oddg is in.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
What I'm hearing Vass is that these guys aren't going
to stop and give us a chance to catch out.
That's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing greedy. We're greedy, We're
too good, We're greedy. This is our patch, So off
everyone else.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I know, we should all step aside and let you
whipper snappers have a chance. But it's not going to happen.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Isn't that the purpose of a lifetime achievement? We should
start fast. We should start a lifetime Achievement awards and
just give them to people we want to stop writing, right.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Lifetime achievement. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
So Mark, you're the first recipient of the lifetime Achievement.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Otherwise known as You've had your time, now shove off.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
It could be like those donuts in Mark's book.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, the Poison Donuts.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Poison Donuts Award. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
You're still clearly having a lot of fun writing these books,
and of course they're still supremely popular. The Tom Thorne.
So what keeps it alive for you?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Well? Doing other stuff, doing other stuff. I mean, this
is the first Tom Thorne book I've written for a
few years, because I took some time off to start
writing a new series featuring a character called decl Miller.
But the series that has God help us jokes in it.
So this is you know, I've come back to him
after a couple of years and that, and that's always helped,
having having those breaks, writing standalones, doing other stuff, collaborating
(12:12):
with with other people on various other projects. No, I
mean I could ever. I don't think I could ever
just write the same book. You know, a thorn book
and a thorn book, and a thorn book and a
thorn book. You have to have a bit of a
break or you go by me.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You need to have the rows with the thorns, don't
you every down?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Hey, yeah, you see why he's on fire, on fire,
but well many many requests have come in for me
to set him on fire, but we'll refrain.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I've refrained somehow. You mentioned the Declan Miller series. I mean,
you know, I love those books. So it began with
the Last Dance, and I think the latest is called
The Wrong the Wrong Hands, Give us, give us, you know,
let's plug those books as well.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, they're they're there. They are kind of to the
darkness of Tom Thorne. They are still they are still books,
the central character of which is a homicide detective, but
he works in Blackpool. So the books are set in
the North. He's very very different. He's a man who's
struggling with grief. He's gone back to work after his
wife has been murdered, and gone back to work much
too soon, and grief has turned him into somebody who
(13:20):
just doesn't give the monkeys about who he upsets or
what he says or what he does. He's still a
good detective and the books and the books are still
about grief and death and loss and pain and roads,
but not quite it's not quite as on the nose
as it love.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Something quite special with those books, because, as you say,
they are about these themes of grief and death and violence,
and yet they have that dark humor that sets them apart,
that that adds and dimension, and that's got to be
tough to do well.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
That's I mean, that was kind of why I wanted
to write those books are because there are lots of
people that say that humor and seriousness are kind of opposite,
and they're absolutely not. They're absolutely not. You know, the
opposite of seriousness is triviality, and humor that all the
best kind of humor is rarely trivial. So I wanted
I wanted to write books where I could, you know,
(14:09):
still be dealing with serious themes, but still occasionally go
and here's a joke, which which I don't get to
do with Tom Thorne. I mean, there's there's humor in
those books too, but they are that is very very
dark humor.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
You know you're talking, you're preaching to the converted. In
both of us used dry humor. Humor in Armist tell
Us tell Us the plot of the Wrong Hands, that's
the latest in the Declan Miller.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, the Wrong Hands just starts with a couple of
local ne'er do wells do stage what they think is
a brilliant robbery in the toilets of Blackpool railway Station
and the steeler businessman's briefcase, thinking oh, this could god
knows what this could contain. This could contain all sorts
of brilliant stuff. And when they open it, it does
(14:51):
contain some beautiful signet rings, but unfortunately they're still on
a pair of hands. They're on a pair of waxy,
severed hands in this briefcase, which then turns up on
Declan Miller's doorsteps, so he has to take it from there.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I mean, both of those books you've described the openings
are just they're just wonderfully cinematic. I mean, they draw
you straight in. Is this a gift? Mark Billingham? Is
this a gift?
Speaker 2 (15:16):
To be honest? We all you know what It's like?
The opening is so important, isn't it, Because it's all
we've got. It's all we've got to kind of drag
readers kicking and screaming into our books, you know what
I mean. I mean they look at the back of them,
and they look at the blurb and all that stuff.
But those first few pages have really got to got
to reel them in, because if you're a reader like me,
if those first few pages don't, I'm going to give up.
(15:37):
I'm going to give up and put that book down
and pick up another one. I mean, I know this
is a kind of controversial view because some people, you know,
my wife included, as a reader, will just always finish
a book. She can't bear not to finish a book
because she thinks she's somehow, she's somehow letting the writer down.
And I'm just like, no, you're not.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And that's why she is a better person than she's
a better person than me.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
But do you know what the writer doesn't care because
you've bought their books, so they're happy. You're you're not
letting the writer down if you don't finish their book.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Could be fair. I used to be like that, but
I've taken on your philosophy over the last few years
because I just get sent far too many. Of course,
some of them you just don't get on with it. It
might be a great book for someone else, it just
might not.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
I don't even finish writing my books these days.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Stop or it might not be the right book for
you at that time.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
You might come back to that book five years down
the road and go, oh, why didn't Why didn't I
feel like this first time around? You know, because I
was not through a book. Don't plow through a book
if you're not enjoying it, just don't.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And has your has your method your method amongst the
madness your process change in all these you I know
it's a bit of a a bit of a literary
style question, but we've got to get serious too.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so. It's
getting that opening, it's absolutely getting that opening right, But
other than that, there isn't really a plan. You know,
that opening will just leave lots of questions. You know,
you get this briefcase with seven hands in whose hands? Why?
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
What's going on? And I just want to take it
from there. And it was the same with the opening
of What the Night Brings. I had that opening with
these donuts and these cops.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
How did that come to you? How did that come
to you?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
That came to me from talking from talking to somebody
we all know a writer, an ex copper called Graham Bartlett,
who told me that I don't know whether it was
here or some colleagues of his who had once been
left some donuts a gift. And of course, you know,
being twisted, twisted buggers that we are, you immediately think
(17:37):
what can I do with.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
That cliche in cop circles, right, that cops love donuts.
But that's more American, right, But I mean they're also
Greg pastries and.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Gregg's Greg Greg Gregstoke bake would be.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Bacon sandwich, Beacon sandwich.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
But because the book is largely about the modern attitude
to the police, which have changed, you know, to get
those attitudes have changed a lot over the over recent years,
and how could they not, how could they not in
the wake of things like Sarah Everard and that kind
of stuff. You know, if you're going to write police,
modern police procedurals, you have to take that on board.
(18:15):
Otherwise you're just writing cartoons.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Well, let's explore that a bit further. As you say,
attitudes to the police have changed, and that's reflected or
it has to be reflected in crime fiction. How has
crime fiction changed in the period that you've been writing,
the one hundred and seven years that you've been.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I mean, I think I think there are rather
more writers who are this sounds a bit I don't
mean taking on more serious subjects, because crime fiction has
always dealt with serious subjects, but has become slightly less afraid, right,
I think, to take on social issues, which I think
used to be used to be the in the kind
(18:56):
of wheelhouse of literary fiction, but isn't so much any more.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know. It certainly was in the kind of sixties
and seventies. Literally writers would would would would look at
social issues and look at the world, And I'm not sure,
I'm not sure they do quite so much anymore.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
They just look at themselves these days, They just look
at themselves, at their navels, well, you know, I'm not
going to go quite that far, but but crime fiction
has sort of stepped up.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I mean crime fiction has always done it, you know.
I mean there are writers going back to people like
you know, uh, pair Pair Wilou and Marge Choal who
used to do that in In in the Martin Is
that the Mine in the Martin Beck novels. And I
think europe European crime fictions as has always done it
to an extent, but I think I think more so
in recent years. I mean, obviously, you know, publishing has
(19:42):
changed and all all those kinds of things, and you know,
ebooks and blah blah blah. But uh, what crime fiction
has done is just become so much more massively popular.
And also, of course these guys these days we get
to meet up at festivals and stuff. Those things didn't
even exist when I started.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Is that right? Wow?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
There were there weren't There weren't crime fiction festivals. There
just weren't.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, it was all tablets and.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, but the weird thing, you'd occasionally get invited to
a proper literary festival. Do you occasionally get invited to you know, hey,
yeah or Cheltenham or whatever where you'd be one of
you know, a couple of genre writers the late Relief. Yea,
you'd be the night reef. Oh it's you, you're the
crime writer. And then and then kind of in the
early two thousands, late nineties, early two thousands, a couple
(20:30):
just sort of started happening. There was a thing called
dead on Deansgate which started and then you know, and now,
of course there's one, there's one a month.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Well it's a quiet month, of it's one a month, right.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
What you've also what you also see is lots and
lots of smaller non festivals, but small events in smaller
towns where it's inevitably crime and thriller writers that they
tend to invite along because they know there's lots of people.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No, of course, and it's great because we all get
to meet up and get together and hook up and
catch up with each other. And I guess there's a
demand for these things. I mean, they wouldn't happen if
there wasn't.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
You know, people people pay to come to these things.
I mean, vas you make a lot of money from
your writing, a bit less from your only fans page,
but you're on like every every sort of festival going, right,
you must be earning a pretty penny from that, right.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I do a lot of events, as do you, as
does Mark, and I reckon that the secret to being
invited to lots and lots of events.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Cheap not being an ass.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
We all know writers who go along and they're full
of themselves and or they maybe they hog the panel,
or they refuse to chair when they're asked to chair
because they think they're too important and big to chair,
or they just behave like an ass, and then they
just don't get invited back. Whereas if you are companionable,
you you know, you're you're you're friendly, you're warm, and
you have some interesting things to say and maybe a
(21:53):
dash of humor word spreads, and you just get invited
to more things.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I'll definitely try that in the future. Then, as supposed to.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Your face is going to be a hindrance, but you
know we can.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
The thing to say, though, is not every writer, and
we three are certainly exceptions of this, but some writers
don't enjoy it. You know, we very much enjoy standing
up on stage and showing off. You know that for
me has always been the fun part the job is
putting your ars in the chair and right in the
The fact that you then get to turn up to
travel around the world and stand up on stages and
talk about it. It's brilliant, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Well, not just that you're not just standing on stage talking,
you are standing on stage singing and playing the guitar
as well. Someone tell us about that, because that is
that's you know, that is the stuff of schoolboy dreams.
You've played Glastonbury schoolboy dream?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yes? No, absolutely. We started this silly bit of nonsense
a band of crime writers, the fun loving crime writers,
way back now, kind of seven years ago or something,
just as a bit of fun. You know. It started
at at a festival in New Orleans where a few
of us jumped on stage and you know, started singing
a few songs, and then it took off to the
point where we were suddenly doing loads of book vessevals
(23:03):
and doing shows in Iceland and Canada. And yeah, then
we got asked to play Glastonbury.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I mean bonkers, right, didn't I didn't you tell me
an amazing story of being backstage? And was it Paul
McCartney or no, it was a really famous group who
whose beer you stole? Or they stole your beer.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Paul McCartney listening McCartney's beer. You know, I wouldn't even
talk to you guys. No, it was it was hawk winned.
It was a bangled Hawkwind coincidentally one of it one
of Inspector John Reebis's favorite bands. No, No, they were.
They were on the same bill as us, on the
same stage as as Glastonbury. And you have you have backstage,
(23:42):
you have these fridges with your name on and so
there's you know, hawk Wind and Keen and then you
know the funnel up. We're taking pictures of these fridges
PbD with they were. But the thing is, I've been
so we were so absurdly grateful to be asked to
play that. When I got asked what our rider was,
(24:02):
you know, the entertainment rider, I just said, oh, I know,
half a dozen bottles of beer and a bottle of
red wine for val Valbing Valmont Dermot as the kind
of singer the man. And they were as good as
they were. And we opened the fridge and there that's
what there was. But it was the hottest day of
the year. It was like one hundred degrees and we
drank everything within about two minutes and then Stuart Neville,
a brilliant lead guitarist, came over and said, you go
(24:25):
say what Hawkwen's French, I apologize for that impression that.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I Peasley impression, and Hawkman says no, And then and.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
There was all the alcohol in the world. It was like, oh,
so yeah, we did help ourselves a bit of Hawkins beer.
And when we played Lust and we for the second
time last summer, we asked for a lot more. This
time we were right divers. This time Chris Brooke Myer
asking for personalized towels and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I broke. You can't take him anywhere. He's like, Mary Ann.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Serious. It's that thing of collab because what we do
is a solitary thing, right. We sit on our own
and we you know, tell these stories. So to be
able to collaborate with other people on other projects with mates,
it's just a brilliant thing, right, It's a brilliant.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
It is it is, and we should say that. You know,
you are one of the most gregarious, charming, debonair talented
people on the circuit, and you make you've been I mean,
I remember when Vasa and I first started writing, it
would have been very easy for you just to tell
Vas to get lost, but you didn't. You were charitable,
(25:36):
you were hospitable. You took them under your wing, you know,
when you didn't need to. You could have run out
the door like the rest of us do, but you didn't.
And that speaks volumes Mark.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Again. To be serious. It's just what Vas said earlier.
You just just don't be a dick. It's really you know,
it's it's not rocket science. And so many people are
incredibly nice to me when I started, you know, people
people who have since become people like Ian Rankin, John Harvey,
an American writer like Michael Connolly, who you know, these are.
(26:08):
These were massive, massive rioters, but they were so welcoming,
and generally, generally speaking, the crime fiction genre is welcoming.
You know, if you turn up and you've got really
sharp elbows and you behave like a bit of a dick,
it won't be welcoming for too long. But largely largely
there's room for there's room for everybody, except when you're
kind of young whipper snappers like you two, and we're
not going to move over quite quite as easily as
(26:30):
you want to.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Now, all of these different talents in an alternate universe.
You know, you're not a writer. You're not even an
actor because you started off as an actor. You're not
a singer, at least not one who's paid a fortune
to play Glastonbury, et cetera. So what are you? What
is Mark Billingham? Then?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Listen? I've always, I've always, you know, I joke about
all the different things I've done being a concerted effort
to avoid a proper job, but largely I never have.
I've had one proper job in my whole life, which
was when I was a cleaner at Buttling's one summer
when I was like seventeen, or just the worst job
in the world, horrendous job, absolutely horrible, And the rest
(27:11):
of the time has just been being a performer of
one sort or another, you know, just being a show off.
You know, whether it's a show off writing books, because
what we do is a performance. When you write book,
we're trying to give the best performance we can't. You know,
we're right as a popular fiction, aren't we. You know,
we're writing to entertain readers, to keep those pages turning,
all that stuff. Obviously, entertainment can mean a whole lot
(27:32):
of different things in the context of crime fiction. But
that's that's largely what we are, so I'd have to
do something that was you know, and I'm not sure
what else there is to do. Most of them. Again,
I studied that shit when I was a drama student.
When I was a drama Oh yeah, I can listen.
(27:53):
I can do what I can. I can walk against
the wind and I'm trapped in a box. I can
do all that stuff. I can even do a bit
of kind of seventeenth century dancing, because I.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Have seventeenth century dancing. Now hang up, yeah, oh tell
us about that.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Well, because I was a drama student, so all the
ship that goes with that, you know, leg warmers and saying,
you know, I'm a drama student. In the early nineteen
eighties revision of you don't yeah, it was it was
at that time. It was around that we all thought
we were the kids from fame, but we were in Birmingham.
(28:29):
We're the kids from fame.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And now you know, you've got Glipsey pajamas on in
in Florida.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
General Mark Billingham available for kids, parties, barmits, christenings, weddings,
whatever you need.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Circumcisions oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, like I said, I've got I've got a bunch
of events coming up. We're doing some stuff together, aren't
we a beer?
Speaker 3 (28:52):
We are, We're doing We're doing the you know, the
highlight of your career, Woking, right, Woking town Hall Library
were going to be doing Woking only. I'm pretty sure
that John Lennon played Woking Library at one stage. Don't
quote me, don't quote me over. Sim Cahn has also
been there. Yeah, but yeah, all the greats all there.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I don't think.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Well, you know this is where they wrote War of
the World. It's Gee Wells wrought it here in Woking,
and the Aliens they land in Woking.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I know that it being a question I've asked in
a quiz. I am a big fan of a quiz,
as you know.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yes, and he built He built a mausoleum for one
hundred years for my career from my career, built something,
didn't he What was it?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
No? No, no, no no. The first mosque in the country
is here as well. Okay, first purpose built mosque in
Britain is in Woking, and it was built by a jew.
There you are not Jewish, gentleman built a mosque. He
also was going to build a church, a synagogue and
a Hindu temple, but he died. I think only I
(30:05):
think only the church and the mosque were built. But
there you are.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's also it's Woking, also the town called Malice in the.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
It is of course mister Weller right is from here.
So it is the place to be mate, and we
will show you why it is called a town called Malice.
When you are here, ladies and gentlemen, but you know
where else are you playing? Come on tell our audience
because the book is out in Okay, it brings.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Us two weeks fashioned diary which I have to look
at this. Oh so in the next couple of weeks,
I am going to be in I am going to
be in Liverpool. I'm going to be in Dundee with
the fund of my crimewriters. I'm going to be in Manchester.
I'm going to be in London. I'm going to be
in mold I'm going to be in Malvern. I'm going
(30:51):
to be in Wantage and Hillingdon and Letchworth and Woking
and Bath. And then it's time for it's time for
a long lie down.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I think some tour ladies and gentlemen, wherever you are
in the UK, you are no more than twenty miles
from Mark Billingham at some point, it can't escape. Do
come along to one of his many many stores because
and find out what the night brings?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I love that. See that segue was really good.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
That's Rarey, that's very good. Should get why you should
get a cookie? At least you finish off with Mark.
What are you writing next?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I'm writing the third decla Miller book, which as yet
doesn't have a title, which drives me absolutely crazy. I
don't know about you, guys. If i'm if I'm writing
it's horrendous, isn't it. It just says, you know, book
twenty three or something. So I'm coinry writing that. Mindie,
What the Night Rings didn't have a title until until
after I'd finished it, and then that came to me.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Any any Are you allowed to tell us anything about
the plot.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Of the new Miller book. Yeah, it's about it's about.
It's about a wobbly dog. Oh, yes, lobby, a wobbly
sausage dog. Who. Okay, I'll tell you exactly what happened.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I got.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I got I was walking my dog. I have a
small sausage dog and I was walking her in a park,
my wife and I walking her in a part near us,
and she was attacked by two excel bullies, big dogs,
big scary dogs, and they're big scary owner who came
over and I asked him kind of politely to put
his dog on a lead, and he and he threatened
(32:27):
to stab me, or threatened to stab me up in
common parlance of young people. And of course that was
the you know, that was the end of the incident.
It was horrible incidents. But then those things live in
your brain for a while and turn into other things,
and that became the start of the book. But it doesn't,
it doesn't, it doesn't end the way it ended in
real life.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
That's good, I mean, that's I mean, it's a horror,
horrendous thing to happen to you, but it's good that
you've been able to repurposeful it and make money out
of it and have a number one best seller. That
is the ultimate revenge, ladies and gentlemen, The ultimate revenge
served to you.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Cold he ends up. He ends up in at the
bottom of a lake exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Just remember, nothing can happen to the dog, right Mark
we have to do an outro now. But it has been.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Wonderful, lovely, it's been lovely. I mean it's it's it's
always a joy being in Mark's bedroom, you know, and
this one is on the other side of the world,
so it's it's even better. And that brings us to
the end of another episode. Ladies and gentlemen, once again,
if you've liked the show, can we ask you to
leave a of you sign up for regular episodes using
your favorite podcast that and please do spread the word.
(33:38):
That's neither you nor I have a dog, But if
you were to have a dog, what would you call it?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I would be a burger dog, not a sausage dog.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
A burger dog, A hot dog. Right cool. On that
culinary note, we have been your friends, the Red Hot
Chili writers on Murder Junction. Tune in
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