August 25, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode we chat to clinical psychologist turned crime writer Kingsley Pearson about his debut Flat 401, discuss digital psychology ... and rubber plantations in Sri Lanka.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Murder Junction. Everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This week on the show, we are talking to Kingsley Pierson,
clinical psychologist turned crime writer. Kingsley, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks so
much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, the first thing I should say for the edification
of our listeners is that this is going to be
a one hander, which sounds a bit rude, but all
it really means is that Abert is not going to
be around because he's currently in the Wiles of Wales
on a mini holiday, and if I had forced him
to participate in this podcast, he told me that his
(00:40):
wife would probably throw him off a cliff. I was
tempted to make him do it anyway, just so that
that could happen, but in the end I took pity
on him and excused him for the episode. So it's
just going to be me and new Kingsley. How are you,
my friend?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
And well, thank you. I think it's a little unfair
if his wife kills him because you force it to
be on the podcast, though surely you're the you know,
you're the culpable one in that situation.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Is it really unfair?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I mean, I would suggest that by popular demand of
most of our listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's an honor.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
It would be an honor. It would be quite a
gag to be frank.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Look, I can see that you're I can see that
you're already busy psychoanalyzing me, and plenty of that as
we go on.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
But let's start. Let's start with you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Let's start with a bit of background. So before you
became a clinical psychologist, you were born and you grew
up somewhere. So tell us about growing up.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, so I grew up in Surrey, in the southeast
of England. My father's Sri Lankan and my mother's Belgium,
but they met in this country and that's where they've
built their family. So I have a couple of siblings.
So yeah, I grew up there, went to school there.
Eventually I mainly lived in the south or southeast of England.
I did live in the in Portsmouth for a year
(01:58):
and I studied in Cambridge at mainia lived in that
area and then now I live in London. So yeah,
eventually later on in my psychology career, well, I say,
later on, I've lived in London for about twelve fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Now, well, let's go.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Back to your heritage a little bit, because of course
it bleeds into your writing and your life in general.
So you're what you say, your feu father was from
Sri Lanka And what did he do? I mean, when
did he come to the UK?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I mean both my parents. Actually my mother came here
when she was a bit younger, but he came here
around eighteen. He just decided he was a kind of
wandering spirit and decided, you know, he wanted something I
guess a bit of an adventure. His first job in
this country was sucking shelves in the now defunct Woolwich
and Woolwich Woolworth's. So yeah, that's how he started off life,
(02:48):
and then he gradually worked to he works in what
he's retired now, but he worked in kind of finance
as like he's not a qualified accountant, but like in
accountancy roles doing the books for different different companies.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Did you ever go back to Sri Lanka with him.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I've been there, yeah, on a few, just a few
family holidays, like a couple of family holidays when I
was younger, my gap year, I traveled around the world
to meet him there, just me and him for like
a week or ten days something like that, and then
a couple of family like weddings and but you know,
uncle's birthdays and things like that as a as an
older adult, rather.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like my own experience when I first went back to
India where my or the subcontinent where my parents were from,
and it was very much like being hit across the
face with a frying pan. Was that your experience of
Sri Lanka or was it a bit calmer?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Probably a bit calmer because you went, you went and
lived there. Is that why you lived on work there? Yeah,
whereas these are just kind of trips. Yes, it's very
different obviously, particularly temperature wise and humidity wise, but also
particularly when I was younger, because Sri Lanka is going
through a different difficult economic time. Now you know post
COVID that really hit the country a lot, but before
(04:05):
that it had modernized quite a lot. More so when
I was a child, you couldn't get from Colombo to
where my father has like a it sounds grander than
it is, like has like a tea estate or like
actually it's a rubber plantation, sorry, not tea. And it
doesn't really it doesn't make any money, but it's just
something he has from his parents. So whenever we go
(04:26):
there on holiday, we know, we drive up there, wander around,
look at the trees, maybe we offered some some coconut,
and then come back. And as a child, the road
was so bad that my little sister like threw up
over our mother on the journey because it was so rocky.
Whereas the last time I went, you know, its proper
like modernized tom Mac road. So it has changed over
(04:49):
the years actually, but initially, yeah, it was like super different,
much more different.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Well, two things to say about that.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Firstly, that experience that you described of your of your
younger sister throwing up during drives, this is very much
what Abbia does when we go to festivals together and
we have to drive there, and it has happened many times,
and it's usually because he's made a stop somewhere to
eat some k KFC because he's not allowed fried chicken
at home. And then of course he's like a toddler,
(05:15):
he can't hold his chicken and it all comes out
within a few minutes. And the second thing, I mean,
I did not know this about you. I mean this
has taken a sinister turn. I did not know that
you were a plantation owner. It does sound very extravagant.
I have to say, it does sound quite exotic, exotic too,
do you so, are you officially still the owner of
(05:36):
this plantation?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
He's still Yeah, he's trying to sell that land because
it's you know, it's no use to him, it's just
empty land. But the demand again, the demand has kind
of gone down. I I have a friend, he's British
who did buy like a little hat he wanted for
He was like, he's white British, but he's like in
love with Srilanka. So he's quite a bit older than me,
(05:58):
like fifteen twenty years older. He when you like, took
early retirement. He bought a place over there. But I
don't think there's so many people doing that now. So
I'm not sure how he's going to get rid of
this lamd, but I hope he does.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Well, let's talk about your mother's heritage then, So Belgium,
you do do you speak?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
What?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Do they speak? The French? Largely?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
So, yeah, so they've got French or Flemish, but my
mother's French speaking Belgium. Unfortunately, we didn't speak French or
Siniles at home because both my parents don't speak the
other's language. So I picked up a little bit of
French through studying at school, but it would be nice
to be trilingual. Yeah, so no, only a little bit
(06:40):
of school French for me. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well let's move on to So you went to Cambridge
and yeah, presumably you studied psychology.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Incorrect, So yes, another twist in the story. Yes you
would think so, but no, my first review was actually
in theology because we didn't have psychology at school. I'm
sure it was in other school, but my schoo back
then wasn't taught so religious studies was the subject that
I enjoyed the most. But I always had a psychological interest.
I was always interested in what does religion tell us
(07:09):
about people, how to live our lives, that kind of thing,
So it made sense for me to do that at university.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'll tell you what. We're peeling back this onion. Yeah,
getting stinkier in stinkier by the second. It's getting more
and more intriguing. So you've studied theology, what would you
say after three years of studying theology, what would you
condense that too, if that's at all possible. I mean,
mankind's approach to faith and religion.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Oh yes, I mean that's definitely difficult to condense. But
I think because I did do papers on sociology of religion,
psychology of religion, philosophy, ethic lots about religion, so I
think there is a clear I think it's left with
me with both like I don't have a faith myself,
but it's also left me with I think i'd hope
a bit of humility about there is a lot we
(07:59):
didn't understand and in the world and the universe, and
faith is just that it's not a you know, it's
not a scientific thing. It is it is an experience
that people have. So I try and still have, even
where people have beliefs or lifestyles that are different from
my own, to have respect for that. And then some
of the functions of religion as well in a psychological sense,
and the way that it can give people meaning, comfort,
(08:23):
ethical guidelines. Those are some of the things where I
can see still that that religion and spirituality give that
to people.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I think that very much mirrors both what Abir and
I feel. I think there's a grand mystery out there
that humans are too small and insignificant to completely understand.
But at the same time of course faith has been
misused over the years, and you only have to look
at some of the conflicts going on around the world
at the moment. But at the same time, faith has
the power to provide us with comfort and order in
(08:52):
our lives if if we don't adhere too strongly to
the negative aspects of organization organized religion. So I think
we're sort of in very close correlation as to our
approaches to faith. Okay, so you did theology and yes,
you are now a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So does this mean that you then had to go
back and study again.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, that's right. So I have too many degrees. Yeah,
I think if perhaps if I had my time over again, ah,
I'd want to go straight for where I ended up.
But the journey is kind of valid and useful, which
I guess is relevant to writing as well, which.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Made I just have to stop you.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Take I just stopped you for a second because when
you say you've got all these degrees, now our listeners
cannot see you, but you look like you're eighteen years old,
so you must have been like that. What's his name,
Doogie Houser the TV show Do you remember Doogie Houser,
who was a doctor at age eleven or something of
that nature, and it was a big TV show for
a long time.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
And very Yeah, I was on one of those, and
I mean you have them in real life. I think
someone from my primary school. I think he ended up
being one of those people who goes to university, yeah
when they still like should be a secondary school. No,
it's that I'm actually I'm in my early forties. Maybe
it's just very flattering lighting. So I've definitely had time
to do the theology degree and then the conversion course
(10:14):
into psychology and then yeah, and then the clinical doctorate
that you have to do to become a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And why why did you suddenly decide, hey, theology was
not for you?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
But not a day goes by, I don't ask myself
the same question. No, it was the I mean, theology
was it was the right thing to do for me
at the time, and it was the right interest, but
it didn't lead to a career. You know, I've got
to even though you now think that I'm this sort
of I must be like a millionaire because my father
has this robber estate. Unfortunately, I do need to pay
(10:45):
my mortgage and my bills. So when I finished my
my undergraduate degree. Then I looked around for well, what
was something, what was a job that I thought would
both be interesting to me, could use my skills and
would be kind of used full to society. Because that
was an important value to me. I want to do
it to be a useful role. And I came across
the field of clinical psychology and then luckily at the
(11:08):
time the British Psychological Society, who at the time it's
we're regulated by someone else now, but they used to
regulate clinical psychologists. They were very clear about this is
what you need to do to do a conversion course
and get onto the course. So I just kind of
followed that path.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
That's a very noble sentiment that you wanted to be
a use society. I think most people who look at
me and Abby, I think we're as useful as chocolate
tires on a hot day. So well done, you you qualified.
Now I see while I was doing my research, I
see that you say that you are a digital clinical
(11:46):
psychologist somewhere now you know instantly I'm thinking, does this
mean that you're a hologram? Is this why you look
so young? Because I'm looking at hologram now, what does
it mean digital clinical psychologist.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yes, I'm actually I'm actually AI. Before AI was depending
on your view whether it was cool or very evil.
Now what it means is so I worked in the
NHS for about eleven years and my final role in
the NHS was in a National Specialist Center. So I
was literally working with people who'd written the book on
certain models of therapy and how to treat people. And
(12:18):
even there you could see therapy doesn't help everyone. It
can be very hard for people to make for patients
to make change. There's long waiting lists. So I began thinking, oh, well,
you know, how can we solve this problem? And again
this was about, you know, five six years ago. They're
these tools like digital tools. So back then it was
(12:38):
like mobile apps. Since then there's been virtual reality. Now
of course AI chatbots are all the rage in terms
of what people are developing. So I got into, oh,
how can I research and develop some of these programs myself?
So I ended up leaving the NHS to work in
different companies that were making making programs to try and
normally to supplement therapy. Start like sort of industry. Now
(13:02):
we'll talk about I will trying to replace therapists with AI,
for example, which I think is not really a very
I don't think there's a lot of mileage in that
for various reasons. But my hope was that you could
make these tools which would mean that more people could
access mental health support, the quality of the support would
be better, and people could get better sooner. That's my
sort of hope.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So are you suggesting that there are companies out there now?
I know you said that it's unlikely, but there are
companies out there that are trying to develop an artificial
intelligence psychologist or therapist where you would essentially be speaking
to an AI version of you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean that's definitely the aim of some companies. I
think most would be more like that, as I said,
they're trying to use digital tools to supplement therapy or
supplement the services. But there's definitely a few that have
that aim. As I said, I think it's a bit
difficult for a range of reasons. One is because if
you think about dry, you know, self driving cars are
(14:02):
essentially AI trying to drive a car quite complicated to
replicate not just the specific skills of driving, but also
it needs general human common sense to be able to
navigate unexpected obstacles in the road, for example. So if
you think, well, therapy is actually a lot more complicated
than driving because we don't really know a lot of
the time how therapy works. So that's why I personally,
(14:24):
I think I think they. I think that companies will
be able to make tools that help people. There's then
there's a separate can of worms about are they developed
in an ethical way? Obviously, as writers, you know, we'll,
I imagine we'll both have a similar position on, you know,
the how some of the how some of these large
language models have been developed in ways that haven't perhaps
(14:46):
used appropriate licenses for the material. That that's or separate
question of is the model developed ethically? But I think
whether it's good or bad is a big part of
it is whether it helps people. And well, we'll we'll
have to see whether that's ability.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
All right, let's start talking about your writing now, because
this is just third career, the third act of Kingsley Pearson.
Tell us about Flat four zero one, which is your
debut novel. Give us the thirty second elevator pitch and
then we can talk a bit more about it.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, so it's about a man who is in prison
for a crime he confessed to but didn't commit. And
then when he's out of prison, coming to the end
of his probation period, he's blackmailed about the crime he
actually committed. And so in the end he has to
choose does he confess to that crime, in which case
he'll probably go back to prison for life, or if
he doesn't, someone else will lose their life.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
So it's a classical ethical moral dilemma. Are you good
enough as a human being to do the right thing
or do you choose self preservation?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah? I think that, Yeah, definitely doing the right thing. Redemption, forgiveness,
they're big parts of the book.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And let's talk about the protagonist, the person who is
having to make this moral choice, which is Jay. So
tell us.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So Jay is like me. He's half Slunkan, But I
made him half Slunkan, half English hartly to simplify it,
but also because I didn't want to write someone who
is exactly like me, because I think you can get
into trouble as an author if you just write yourself.
It's hard to actually write a decent book if you
do that. So he's mixed race, he's gay, He's I
(16:25):
set the book because I wrote the book during the pandemic,
so I set the era sort of near where I
was living because it's also easier in terms of research.
And Yeah, he's a nice guy. He's a gentle giant,
so unlike me. He's tall, he's good looking, he's muscular,
but he's a very like like soft person inside, like
he's quite socially anxious. He's a little bit paranoid about
(16:46):
what other people think about him, and so he just
ends up in the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I think most people find him quite likable and sympathetic,
and they sort of understand the situation he's ended up
in and feel sorry for.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Him and the cast around this.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
So we've got some quite shady characters moving in and
out of the narrative. So tell us about one or
two of those.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, I think I won't tell too many because there
are some spoilers, but there's definitely I mean, the shady
character who you see quite early on is a guy
called Tony who it was important to me, I think,
to have that sort of almost like a counterweight, you know,
in different they'll be talking different writing theory books that
we talked about in different ways, so it might be
called like the ghost for example. So he's like, he's
(17:29):
the person from Jay's past who's been in prison as well,
but it's showing the flip side of someone who's maybe
he's on a life of crime that's not going to change,
so he's there's like this sort of risk of tempting
Jay over to the dark side. And then two other
main characters, one who I've seen that I try not
to read my reviews, but sometimes you get tagged in them.
(17:50):
So I have seen reviews which have said I really
like Kathy, who lives in the hostel with Ja. So
Jay lives in this approved accommodation that's approved by his
probation officer, and there's this woman Kathy who's there. She's
also got her own pass that she's trying to escape
from and move on with her life. And I've seen
a lot of reviewers have said that they really like
her character. She's quite you know, she's quite feisty, and
(18:11):
she goes on her own journey. So that's nice to
see that the readers have liked that. And then there's
also a media who's the sister of the murder of
it or the manslaughter victim of what happened in the
past like before the book started. So she's there, she's
trying to track Jay down, and again she she gets
a bit of a mixed reception, which is intentional because
I wanted her to start off being a bit unlikable
(18:32):
because she is opposed to Jay. She's opposed to the protagonist,
so I want the reader to sort of not like
her so much and root for Jay so much, root
for Jay Moore. But then as you go on, then
you know then obviously it's a psychological thriller, so you
question who is the reliable narrator, who should I be
rooting for? Whose side should I be on?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Absolutely, and as you rightly say, it is a psychological thriller,
a suspense, a suspense narrative. But it is very character
drive driven because it's not just Jay who's ruggling with
moral dilemmas. There are others who have got up to
all sorts of things which have morally compromised them, and
we discover more of this as the book progresses. Why
(19:12):
crime fiction? Why did you pick? Of all the genres
you could have written? Why this?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I think that it's often the genre that I like
reading the most. When I sat BlackBerry, one is my
first book. As I said, I wrote it during the
pandemic as a creative outlet. When I sat down to write,
I thought, okay, I should let me. Let me try
and write a book that's like a book that I've
enjoyed reading. This was a little bit ambitious because one
(19:38):
of my favorite crime books is Case Histories by Kate Atkinson.
So it was a little bit ambitious to start with
emulating you know, you know, prize winning National Treasure author.
But I didn't think of that at the time. I
just went for it. And I think what I enjoy
about the genre is that, particularly that more kind of
character driven story, is you have a compelling story because
(20:02):
there's this mystery or maybe even more than one mystery
that you want to find out. But it can also
be very emotional. So that's really something that was important.
That's what I really like about Case Histories. It really
hits you in the fields, and so that was also
something I tried to achieve with Flat four O one,
which I think you can do in crime like I
don't know obviously, I know you've changed within the genre
of crime recently with The Girl in Salat, So I
(20:24):
think it's quite a flexible genre where you can try
and do different things. What do you think, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I think most writers in crime fiction will tell you
it's such a broad church that just writing the same
thing over and over again it's just perfectly fine. And
you know, I do a couple of series, and it's
nice to revisit the same characters and setting, but it's
also nice to then, occasionally, if you're struck by an
idea that really grips you, is to run with that idea,
(20:50):
assuming that you can actually get a publisher to publish it.
And I was lucky with The Girl in Sla that
my existing publisher said, yeah, go for it, do something different,
and we like what you've come up with. Now now
write it for us. And it took a lot longer
to write because it was something new and different. But
I certainly enjoyed the whole process, and you know, I'm
quite gratified that readers have enjoyed it too. It I'm
sure you must be when you do see really good
(21:13):
reviews for Flat for zero one. We should say that
the book is currently available and for Kindle for those
who like a good Kindle read, it is on a
very special offer, is.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
It not, Yeah, until the end of August twenty twenty five.
Depending on when you're listening to this in the future,
the date's important. It's yeah, it's on Einstein p on Kindle,
so that may be relevant to people or not.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It will be relevant because this episode will air in
on Monday, which still gives people enough time to get
out there and download this book on Kindle or if
you prefer, as I often do a paperback or a
hardback to get that version of the book. Well, to
finish up with let's talk about what you're doing next?
What are you writing now? What are the plans for
(21:59):
Kingly Pierson?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
The author?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
So I was lucky enough to get a two book
deal with Orion, so I have recently, at the start
of this month, I submitted the manuscript for book to
my publisher, so I'm waiting for my my notes back
from my editor's. It's standalone, but it's the same genre,
so it's psychological thriller. It's about I think you ever
know in publishing, or what you're allowed to say or
(22:22):
what not to say. But the publisher has put the
blurb the back cover copy on you know good reason
and soon, so I think it's okay.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
For me to say, well, I work on this principle.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I work on this principle. As long as you've not
been expressly forbidden from saying something, it's never too early
to start plugging a book to potential readers.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Well, definitely, I'll follow that principle, although, given how communication
in publishing can sometimes be a little hit and miss,
I think it's a risky It can be a risky
principle if people may be meant to tell you not
to say something. But yeah, I think if I were
to give it the same elevator pitch for what The
current work title is The Therapist's Secret. It's about a
(23:03):
therapist who goes to the Isle of Wight to take
up a new job. The reason that they're taking up
the new job is because the previous psychologists who they're
replacing is alleged to have killed someone and then gone
into hiding. So essentially it's a therapist is investigating a
murder that's allegedly committed by another therapist.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, I'll tell you what instantly comes to mind. A
that sounds terrific, But B I'm speaking at the Isle
of White Festival this year, and so I would suggest
that when your book is out, you make sure your
publishist publicist gets a copy out to the people who
organize the Isle of White Festival, because I'm certain that
they would want to invite you over once the book
(23:43):
is out.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Oh, thank you for the tip. Although let's see, they
may depends how they feel about my representation of the
Isle in the book, because it's very you know, it's
meant to be very claustrophobic, paranoia small communities, a bit
like yeah, it's going to bit like something.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
We don't care. There's no such thing as publicity.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I mean, look at the number of people that that
that Ian Rankin has murdered in Edinburgh. Nobody in Edinburgh
has ever complained about having the Reabis novels set there, right, Kingsley,
where are we going to see you? Are we going
to see you out and about at any festivals?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I'm doing am doing an event at Woolwich Library where
I think where we first met, actually where you did
an event. Then I'm following in your foteps right.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yes, are you saying that I have big feet?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yes? I do remember that actually, and it's actually very
very gratifying. Over the last decade or so or so,
I've met several writers pre publishing when they were still
looking to finish their first novel and then go on
the whole route of trying to get an agent and
a publisher. So I can think of Laura Sheppard Robinson,
(24:50):
who I met before her first book came out, is
now a very established historical crime writer. There's another writer
coming up whose book is going to come out in
a year, so it's time who's ended up with a
big book deal, who I met well before and who
talked to me about the book, and who did an
online writing course that I put out. So it's lovely
(25:11):
to see people come through that journey and make their
way into the industry. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Well, you're very supportive of people, so I know a
lot of us really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Well, I'm just trying to get a gauge on the
on the competition so that if you get if you
get too big for your boots, you know, it's a
knife in the back, all.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
That kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Okay, Well, I'm also at Bloody Scotland, so I don't
and just doing the you know, they have like an
emerging crime writer scheme, so like three minute speech in
front of people, so I hope that's not edging me
into your competition, not at all.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I shall, I shall be there and I'm sure Abia
and I will both be in the audience when you
get to make your three minute pitch to the to
the gathered multitudes, Kingsley, it's been absolutely lovely chatting to you.
Thank you so much, and for those of you listening
with great reluctance, I have to tell you that Abbe
(26:05):
will probably be back for the next episode. But if
you've liked this episode, can you please leave a review,
sign up for regular episodes using your favorite podcast app,
and do spread the word. And on that note, we
have been that scene and Kingsley on murder
Welcome to Murder Junction. Everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This week on the show, we are talking to Kingsley Pierson,
clinical psychologist turned crime writer. Kingsley, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Thanks so
much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, the first thing I should say for the edification
of our listeners is that this is going to be
a one hander, which sounds a bit rude, but all
it really means is that Abert is not going to
be around because he's currently in the Wiles of Wales
on a mini holiday, and if I had forced him
to participate in this podcast, he told me that his
(00:40):
wife would probably throw him off a cliff. I was
tempted to make him do it anyway, just so that
that could happen, but in the end I took pity
on him and excused him for the episode. So it's
just going to be me and new Kingsley. How are you,
my friend?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
And well, thank you. I think it's a little unfair
if his wife kills him because you force it to
be on the podcast, though surely you're the you know,
you're the culpable one in that situation.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Is it really unfair?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I mean, I would suggest that by popular demand of
most of our listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's an honor.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
It would be an honor. It would be quite a
gag to be frank.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Look, I can see that you're I can see that
you're already busy psychoanalyzing me, and plenty of that as
we go on.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
But let's start. Let's start with you.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Let's start with a bit of background. So before you
became a clinical psychologist, you were born and you grew
up somewhere. So tell us about growing up.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, so I grew up in Surrey, in the southeast
of England. My father's Sri Lankan and my mother's Belgium,
but they met in this country and that's where they've
built their family. So I have a couple of siblings.
So yeah, I grew up there, went to school there.
Eventually I mainly lived in the south or southeast of England.
I did live in the in Portsmouth for a year
(01:58):
and I studied in Cambridge at mainia lived in that
area and then now I live in London. So yeah,
eventually later on in my psychology career, well, I say,
later on, I've lived in London for about twelve fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Now, well, let's go.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Back to your heritage a little bit, because of course
it bleeds into your writing and your life in general.
So you're what you say, your feu father was from
Sri Lanka And what did he do? I mean, when
did he come to the UK?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I mean both my parents. Actually my mother came here
when she was a bit younger, but he came here
around eighteen. He just decided he was a kind of
wandering spirit and decided, you know, he wanted something I
guess a bit of an adventure. His first job in
this country was sucking shelves in the now defunct Woolwich
and Woolwich Woolworth's. So yeah, that's how he started off life,
(02:48):
and then he gradually worked to he works in what
he's retired now, but he worked in kind of finance
as like he's not a qualified accountant, but like in
accountancy roles doing the books for different different companies.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Did you ever go back to Sri Lanka with him.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I've been there, yeah, on a few, just a few
family holidays, like a couple of family holidays when I
was younger, my gap year, I traveled around the world
to meet him there, just me and him for like
a week or ten days something like that, and then
a couple of family like weddings and but you know,
uncle's birthdays and things like that as a as an
older adult, rather.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like my own experience when I first went back to
India where my or the subcontinent where my parents were from,
and it was very much like being hit across the
face with a frying pan. Was that your experience of
Sri Lanka or was it a bit calmer?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Probably a bit calmer because you went, you went and
lived there. Is that why you lived on work there? Yeah,
whereas these are just kind of trips. Yes, it's very
different obviously, particularly temperature wise and humidity wise, but also
particularly when I was younger, because Sri Lanka is going
through a different difficult economic time. Now you know post
COVID that really hit the country a lot, but before
(04:05):
that it had modernized quite a lot. More so when
I was a child, you couldn't get from Colombo to
where my father has like a it sounds grander than
it is, like has like a tea estate or like
actually it's a rubber plantation, sorry, not tea. And it
doesn't really it doesn't make any money, but it's just
something he has from his parents. So whenever we go
(04:26):
there on holiday, we know, we drive up there, wander around,
look at the trees, maybe we offered some some coconut,
and then come back. And as a child, the road
was so bad that my little sister like threw up
over our mother on the journey because it was so rocky.
Whereas the last time I went, you know, its proper
like modernized tom Mac road. So it has changed over
(04:49):
the years actually, but initially, yeah, it was like super different,
much more different.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Well, two things to say about that.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Firstly, that experience that you described of your of your
younger sister throwing up during drives, this is very much
what Abbia does when we go to festivals together and
we have to drive there, and it has happened many times,
and it's usually because he's made a stop somewhere to
eat some k KFC because he's not allowed fried chicken
at home. And then of course he's like a toddler,
(05:15):
he can't hold his chicken and it all comes out
within a few minutes. And the second thing, I mean,
I did not know this about you. I mean this
has taken a sinister turn. I did not know that
you were a plantation owner. It does sound very extravagant.
I have to say, it does sound quite exotic, exotic too,
do you so, are you officially still the owner of
(05:36):
this plantation?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
He's still Yeah, he's trying to sell that land because
it's you know, it's no use to him, it's just
empty land. But the demand again, the demand has kind
of gone down. I I have a friend, he's British
who did buy like a little hat he wanted for
He was like, he's white British, but he's like in
love with Srilanka. So he's quite a bit older than me,
(05:58):
like fifteen twenty years older. He when you like, took
early retirement. He bought a place over there. But I
don't think there's so many people doing that now. So
I'm not sure how he's going to get rid of
this lamd, but I hope he does.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Well, let's talk about your mother's heritage then, So Belgium,
you do do you speak?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
What?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Do they speak? The French? Largely?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
So, yeah, so they've got French or Flemish, but my
mother's French speaking Belgium. Unfortunately, we didn't speak French or
Siniles at home because both my parents don't speak the
other's language. So I picked up a little bit of
French through studying at school, but it would be nice
to be trilingual. Yeah, so no, only a little bit
(06:40):
of school French for me. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well let's move on to So you went to Cambridge
and yeah, presumably you studied psychology.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Incorrect, So yes, another twist in the story. Yes you
would think so, but no, my first review was actually
in theology because we didn't have psychology at school. I'm
sure it was in other school, but my schoo back
then wasn't taught so religious studies was the subject that
I enjoyed the most. But I always had a psychological interest.
I was always interested in what does religion tell us
(07:09):
about people, how to live our lives, that kind of thing,
So it made sense for me to do that at university.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'll tell you what. We're peeling back this onion. Yeah,
getting stinkier in stinkier by the second. It's getting more
and more intriguing. So you've studied theology, what would you
say after three years of studying theology, what would you
condense that too, if that's at all possible. I mean,
mankind's approach to faith and religion.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Oh yes, I mean that's definitely difficult to condense. But
I think because I did do papers on sociology of religion,
psychology of religion, philosophy, ethic lots about religion, so I
think there is a clear I think it's left with
me with both like I don't have a faith myself,
but it's also left me with I think i'd hope
a bit of humility about there is a lot we
(07:59):
didn't understand and in the world and the universe, and
faith is just that it's not a you know, it's
not a scientific thing. It is it is an experience
that people have. So I try and still have, even
where people have beliefs or lifestyles that are different from
my own, to have respect for that. And then some
of the functions of religion as well in a psychological sense,
and the way that it can give people meaning, comfort,
(08:23):
ethical guidelines. Those are some of the things where I
can see still that that religion and spirituality give that
to people.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I think that very much mirrors both what Abir and
I feel. I think there's a grand mystery out there
that humans are too small and insignificant to completely understand.
But at the same time of course faith has been
misused over the years, and you only have to look
at some of the conflicts going on around the world
at the moment. But at the same time, faith has
the power to provide us with comfort and order in
(08:52):
our lives if if we don't adhere too strongly to
the negative aspects of organization organized religion. So I think
we're sort of in very close correlation as to our
approaches to faith. Okay, so you did theology and yes,
you are now a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So does this mean that you then had to go
back and study again.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, that's right. So I have too many degrees. Yeah,
I think if perhaps if I had my time over again, ah,
I'd want to go straight for where I ended up.
But the journey is kind of valid and useful, which
I guess is relevant to writing as well, which.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Made I just have to stop you.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Take I just stopped you for a second because when
you say you've got all these degrees, now our listeners
cannot see you, but you look like you're eighteen years old,
so you must have been like that. What's his name,
Doogie Houser the TV show Do you remember Doogie Houser,
who was a doctor at age eleven or something of
that nature, and it was a big TV show for
a long time.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
And very Yeah, I was on one of those, and
I mean you have them in real life. I think
someone from my primary school. I think he ended up
being one of those people who goes to university, yeah
when they still like should be a secondary school. No,
it's that I'm actually I'm in my early forties. Maybe
it's just very flattering lighting. So I've definitely had time
to do the theology degree and then the conversion course
(10:14):
into psychology and then yeah, and then the clinical doctorate
that you have to do to become a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And why why did you suddenly decide, hey, theology was
not for you?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
But not a day goes by, I don't ask myself
the same question. No, it was the I mean, theology
was it was the right thing to do for me
at the time, and it was the right interest, but
it didn't lead to a career. You know, I've got
to even though you now think that I'm this sort
of I must be like a millionaire because my father
has this robber estate. Unfortunately, I do need to pay
(10:45):
my mortgage and my bills. So when I finished my
my undergraduate degree. Then I looked around for well, what
was something, what was a job that I thought would
both be interesting to me, could use my skills and
would be kind of used full to society. Because that
was an important value to me. I want to do
it to be a useful role. And I came across
the field of clinical psychology and then luckily at the
(11:08):
time the British Psychological Society, who at the time it's
we're regulated by someone else now, but they used to
regulate clinical psychologists. They were very clear about this is
what you need to do to do a conversion course
and get onto the course. So I just kind of
followed that path.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
That's a very noble sentiment that you wanted to be
a use society. I think most people who look at
me and Abby, I think we're as useful as chocolate
tires on a hot day. So well done, you you qualified.
Now I see while I was doing my research, I
see that you say that you are a digital clinical
(11:46):
psychologist somewhere now you know instantly I'm thinking, does this
mean that you're a hologram? Is this why you look
so young? Because I'm looking at hologram now, what does
it mean digital clinical psychologist.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Yes, I'm actually I'm actually AI. Before AI was depending
on your view whether it was cool or very evil.
Now what it means is so I worked in the
NHS for about eleven years and my final role in
the NHS was in a National Specialist Center. So I
was literally working with people who'd written the book on
certain models of therapy and how to treat people. And
(12:18):
even there you could see therapy doesn't help everyone. It
can be very hard for people to make for patients
to make change. There's long waiting lists. So I began thinking, oh, well,
you know, how can we solve this problem? And again
this was about, you know, five six years ago. They're
these tools like digital tools. So back then it was
(12:38):
like mobile apps. Since then there's been virtual reality. Now
of course AI chatbots are all the rage in terms
of what people are developing. So I got into, oh,
how can I research and develop some of these programs myself?
So I ended up leaving the NHS to work in
different companies that were making making programs to try and
normally to supplement therapy. Start like sort of industry. Now
(13:02):
we'll talk about I will trying to replace therapists with AI,
for example, which I think is not really a very
I don't think there's a lot of mileage in that
for various reasons. But my hope was that you could
make these tools which would mean that more people could
access mental health support, the quality of the support would
be better, and people could get better sooner. That's my
sort of hope.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
So are you suggesting that there are companies out there now?
I know you said that it's unlikely, but there are
companies out there that are trying to develop an artificial
intelligence psychologist or therapist where you would essentially be speaking
to an AI version of you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean that's definitely the aim of some companies. I
think most would be more like that, as I said,
they're trying to use digital tools to supplement therapy or
supplement the services. But there's definitely a few that have
that aim. As I said, I think it's a bit
difficult for a range of reasons. One is because if
you think about dry, you know, self driving cars are
(14:02):
essentially AI trying to drive a car quite complicated to
replicate not just the specific skills of driving, but also
it needs general human common sense to be able to
navigate unexpected obstacles in the road, for example. So if
you think, well, therapy is actually a lot more complicated
than driving because we don't really know a lot of
the time how therapy works. So that's why I personally,
(14:24):
I think I think they. I think that companies will
be able to make tools that help people. There's then
there's a separate can of worms about are they developed
in an ethical way? Obviously, as writers, you know, we'll,
I imagine we'll both have a similar position on, you know,
the how some of the how some of these large
language models have been developed in ways that haven't perhaps
(14:46):
used appropriate licenses for the material. That that's or separate
question of is the model developed ethically? But I think
whether it's good or bad is a big part of
it is whether it helps people. And well, we'll we'll
have to see whether that's ability.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
All right, let's start talking about your writing now, because
this is just third career, the third act of Kingsley Pearson.
Tell us about Flat four zero one, which is your
debut novel. Give us the thirty second elevator pitch and
then we can talk a bit more about it.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, so it's about a man who is in prison
for a crime he confessed to but didn't commit. And
then when he's out of prison, coming to the end
of his probation period, he's blackmailed about the crime he
actually committed. And so in the end he has to
choose does he confess to that crime, in which case
he'll probably go back to prison for life, or if
he doesn't, someone else will lose their life.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
So it's a classical ethical moral dilemma. Are you good
enough as a human being to do the right thing
or do you choose self preservation?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Yeah? I think that, Yeah, definitely doing the right thing. Redemption, forgiveness,
they're big parts of the book.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And let's talk about the protagonist, the person who is
having to make this moral choice, which is Jay. So
tell us.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
So Jay is like me. He's half Slunkan, But I
made him half Slunkan, half English hartly to simplify it,
but also because I didn't want to write someone who
is exactly like me, because I think you can get
into trouble as an author if you just write yourself.
It's hard to actually write a decent book if you
do that. So he's mixed race, he's gay, He's I
(16:25):
set the book because I wrote the book during the pandemic,
so I set the era sort of near where I
was living because it's also easier in terms of research.
And Yeah, he's a nice guy. He's a gentle giant,
so unlike me. He's tall, he's good looking, he's muscular,
but he's a very like like soft person inside, like
he's quite socially anxious. He's a little bit paranoid about
(16:46):
what other people think about him, and so he just
ends up in the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I think most people find him quite likable and sympathetic,
and they sort of understand the situation he's ended up
in and feel sorry for.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Him and the cast around this.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
So we've got some quite shady characters moving in and
out of the narrative. So tell us about one or
two of those.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, I think I won't tell too many because there
are some spoilers, but there's definitely I mean, the shady
character who you see quite early on is a guy
called Tony who it was important to me, I think,
to have that sort of almost like a counterweight, you know,
in different they'll be talking different writing theory books that
we talked about in different ways, so it might be
called like the ghost for example. So he's like, he's
(17:29):
the person from Jay's past who's been in prison as well,
but it's showing the flip side of someone who's maybe
he's on a life of crime that's not going to change,
so he's there's like this sort of risk of tempting
Jay over to the dark side. And then two other
main characters, one who I've seen that I try not
to read my reviews, but sometimes you get tagged in them.
(17:50):
So I have seen reviews which have said I really
like Kathy, who lives in the hostel with Ja. So
Jay lives in this approved accommodation that's approved by his
probation officer, and there's this woman Kathy who's there. She's
also got her own pass that she's trying to escape
from and move on with her life. And I've seen
a lot of reviewers have said that they really like
her character. She's quite you know, she's quite feisty, and
(18:11):
she goes on her own journey. So that's nice to
see that the readers have liked that. And then there's
also a media who's the sister of the murder of
it or the manslaughter victim of what happened in the
past like before the book started. So she's there, she's
trying to track Jay down, and again she she gets
a bit of a mixed reception, which is intentional because
I wanted her to start off being a bit unlikable
(18:32):
because she is opposed to Jay. She's opposed to the protagonist,
so I want the reader to sort of not like
her so much and root for Jay so much, root
for Jay Moore. But then as you go on, then
you know then obviously it's a psychological thriller, so you
question who is the reliable narrator, who should I be
rooting for? Whose side should I be on?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Absolutely, and as you rightly say, it is a psychological thriller,
a suspense, a suspense narrative. But it is very character
drive driven because it's not just Jay who's ruggling with
moral dilemmas. There are others who have got up to
all sorts of things which have morally compromised them, and
we discover more of this as the book progresses. Why
(19:12):
crime fiction? Why did you pick? Of all the genres
you could have written? Why this?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I think that it's often the genre that I like
reading the most. When I sat BlackBerry, one is my
first book. As I said, I wrote it during the
pandemic as a creative outlet. When I sat down to write,
I thought, okay, I should let me. Let me try
and write a book that's like a book that I've
enjoyed reading. This was a little bit ambitious because one
(19:38):
of my favorite crime books is Case Histories by Kate Atkinson.
So it was a little bit ambitious to start with
emulating you know, you know, prize winning National Treasure author.
But I didn't think of that at the time. I
just went for it. And I think what I enjoy
about the genre is that, particularly that more kind of
character driven story, is you have a compelling story because
(20:02):
there's this mystery or maybe even more than one mystery
that you want to find out. But it can also
be very emotional. So that's really something that was important.
That's what I really like about Case Histories. It really
hits you in the fields, and so that was also
something I tried to achieve with Flat four O one,
which I think you can do in crime like I
don't know obviously, I know you've changed within the genre
of crime recently with The Girl in Salat, So I
(20:24):
think it's quite a flexible genre where you can try
and do different things. What do you think, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I think most writers in crime fiction will tell you
it's such a broad church that just writing the same
thing over and over again it's just perfectly fine. And
you know, I do a couple of series, and it's
nice to revisit the same characters and setting, but it's
also nice to then, occasionally, if you're struck by an
idea that really grips you, is to run with that idea,
(20:50):
assuming that you can actually get a publisher to publish it.
And I was lucky with The Girl in Sla that
my existing publisher said, yeah, go for it, do something different,
and we like what you've come up with. Now now
write it for us. And it took a lot longer
to write because it was something new and different. But
I certainly enjoyed the whole process, and you know, I'm
quite gratified that readers have enjoyed it too. It I'm
sure you must be when you do see really good
(21:13):
reviews for Flat for zero one. We should say that
the book is currently available and for Kindle for those
who like a good Kindle read, it is on a
very special offer, is.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
It not, Yeah, until the end of August twenty twenty five.
Depending on when you're listening to this in the future,
the date's important. It's yeah, it's on Einstein p on Kindle,
so that may be relevant to people or not.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It will be relevant because this episode will air in
on Monday, which still gives people enough time to get
out there and download this book on Kindle or if
you prefer, as I often do a paperback or a
hardback to get that version of the book. Well, to
finish up with let's talk about what you're doing next?
What are you writing now? What are the plans for
(21:59):
Kingly Pierson?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
The author?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
So I was lucky enough to get a two book
deal with Orion, so I have recently, at the start
of this month, I submitted the manuscript for book to
my publisher, so I'm waiting for my my notes back
from my editor's. It's standalone, but it's the same genre,
so it's psychological thriller. It's about I think you ever
know in publishing, or what you're allowed to say or
(22:22):
what not to say. But the publisher has put the
blurb the back cover copy on you know good reason
and soon, so I think it's okay.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
For me to say, well, I work on this principle.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I work on this principle. As long as you've not
been expressly forbidden from saying something, it's never too early
to start plugging a book to potential readers.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Well, definitely, I'll follow that principle, although, given how communication
in publishing can sometimes be a little hit and miss,
I think it's a risky It can be a risky
principle if people may be meant to tell you not
to say something. But yeah, I think if I were
to give it the same elevator pitch for what The
current work title is The Therapist's Secret. It's about a
(23:03):
therapist who goes to the Isle of Wight to take
up a new job. The reason that they're taking up
the new job is because the previous psychologists who they're
replacing is alleged to have killed someone and then gone
into hiding. So essentially it's a therapist is investigating a
murder that's allegedly committed by another therapist.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, I'll tell you what instantly comes to mind. A
that sounds terrific, But B I'm speaking at the Isle
of White Festival this year, and so I would suggest
that when your book is out, you make sure your
publishist publicist gets a copy out to the people who
organize the Isle of White Festival, because I'm certain that
they would want to invite you over once the book
(23:43):
is out.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Oh, thank you for the tip. Although let's see, they
may depends how they feel about my representation of the
Isle in the book, because it's very you know, it's
meant to be very claustrophobic, paranoia small communities, a bit
like yeah, it's going to bit like something.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
We don't care. There's no such thing as publicity.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I mean, look at the number of people that that
that Ian Rankin has murdered in Edinburgh. Nobody in Edinburgh
has ever complained about having the Reabis novels set there, right, Kingsley,
where are we going to see you? Are we going
to see you out and about at any festivals?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
I'm doing am doing an event at Woolwich Library where
I think where we first met, actually where you did
an event. Then I'm following in your foteps right.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yes, are you saying that I have big feet?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yes? I do remember that actually, and it's actually very
very gratifying. Over the last decade or so or so,
I've met several writers pre publishing when they were still
looking to finish their first novel and then go on
the whole route of trying to get an agent and
a publisher. So I can think of Laura Sheppard Robinson,
(24:50):
who I met before her first book came out, is
now a very established historical crime writer. There's another writer
coming up whose book is going to come out in
a year, so it's time who's ended up with a
big book deal, who I met well before and who
talked to me about the book, and who did an
online writing course that I put out. So it's lovely
(25:11):
to see people come through that journey and make their
way into the industry. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Well, you're very supportive of people, so I know a
lot of us really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Well, I'm just trying to get a gauge on the
on the competition so that if you get if you
get too big for your boots, you know, it's a
knife in the back, all.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
That kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Okay, Well, I'm also at Bloody Scotland, so I don't
and just doing the you know, they have like an
emerging crime writer scheme, so like three minute speech in
front of people, so I hope that's not edging me
into your competition, not at all.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I shall, I shall be there and I'm sure Abia
and I will both be in the audience when you
get to make your three minute pitch to the to
the gathered multitudes, Kingsley, it's been absolutely lovely chatting to you.
Thank you so much, and for those of you listening
with great reluctance, I have to tell you that Abbe
(26:05):
will probably be back for the next episode. But if
you've liked this episode, can you please leave a review,
sign up for regular episodes using your favorite podcast app,
and do spread the word. And on that note, we
have been that scene and Kingsley on murder
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