September 16, 2025 • 44 mins
In our Season 5 finale, we sit down with musician, sync agent, and author Elaine Ryan (Unicorn Sync) to talk about what it really means to find your fit in today’s music industry. Elaine shares lessons from over 15 years in music—touring internationally, landing sync placements on NBC & Amazon, founding her own sync agency, and now publishing her first book Living a Music-Centered Life. We cover:
👉 Support this week’s nonprofit: intermusicsf.org This episode closes out Season 5 with clarity, inspiration, and community. Whether you’re just starting out, gigging full time, or finding your second act—this one’s for you.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/musicians-tip-jar--4698023/support.
Visit MusiciansTipJar.com for more resources and tools to empower your financial journey.
Intro & Outro Music Donated by: The Magi https://www.themagimusic.com
Intro Read by: David “DJ” Lee of The Magi
https://soundcloud.com/rockababyrock
Pictures by: Kit Chalberg https://kitchalberg.com/
- Breaking through the intimidation of sync licensing
- Why balance matters as much as hustle
- Setting fair rates (and when to say “no” to gigs)
- Redefining success beyond fame or Wikipedia pages
- How to live a truly music-centered life, on your own terms
👉 Support this week’s nonprofit: intermusicsf.org This episode closes out Season 5 with clarity, inspiration, and community. Whether you’re just starting out, gigging full time, or finding your second act—this one’s for you.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/musicians-tip-jar--4698023/support.
Visit MusiciansTipJar.com for more resources and tools to empower your financial journey.
Intro & Outro Music Donated by: The Magi https://www.themagimusic.com
Intro Read by: David “DJ” Lee of The Magi
https://soundcloud.com/rockababyrock
Pictures by: Kit Chalberg https://kitchalberg.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the show that explores the methods and strategies
on rocking the financial side of your music business. With
over forty years combined experience, here are your hosts, Chris
Webb and Dave Tamkin.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to you, musician Tip Jar where we talk about
musicians and money, where we strive to find our fit,
helping you in your life's pursuit and hope to help
you slip into it a little easier. I'm Chris Webb,
joined by my co host who just slipped into something
a little more comfortable, Dave Tamkin.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Our last episode for the season, Chris, I slipped out
of my pants no pants. For this episode, it's all
party going full ways down.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Today we sit down with Unicorn Sink Agency owner, musician
and now author Elaine Ryan. We discuss finding your most
valuable fit in the marketplace that is the music industry,
how to live a music centered life, and how to
effectively speak with an Irish accent. Today's quote comes from
our guest Elane Ryan. She said, as you work hard
(01:10):
and are kind to yourself and others, you'll get somewhere
that you can be proud of.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
This week's nonprofit is intermusicsf dot org. Intermusic SF is
dedicated to sustaining and nourishing the Bay Area creative environment
by offering dynamic programming and vital resources for music creators
and audience members. Where they believe that everyone should have
equitable access to world class musical experiences. Musical experiences promote
(01:37):
cultural connections, encourage community engagement, and provide pathways for a
deeper commitment to civic arts for artists and audiences. Music
creators and presenters face financial barriers to build accomplished careers
and require professional development tools and financial services for sustainability.
Please check out more at intermusicsf dot org. If you
(01:57):
find this information useful, please rate and subscribe the podcast
and also slam that like button if you're on YouTube
so we can help keep you up on the finance
side of your music business.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Elaine Ryan is a musician and sink agent who has
made her living in music for over fifteen years. She
has toured throughout Canada and the US and Europe, and
has released four full length albums in EP and numerous singles.
Her songs have been featured in ads and on TV
shows airing on both NBC and Amazon. She is the
(02:26):
founder of sync license agency Unicorn Sync, where she has
helped a growing network of indie artists land placements in
film and television. She also co founded SYNC Music for
a Change, a nonprofit initiative connecting musicians with sink opportunities
while raising money for charitable and progressive causes. Elayne is
a member of the Recording Academy. She lives in the
(02:48):
San Francisco Bay area with her husband, her journal, and
her guitar. Most recently, she is about to release her
first book, Living a Music Centered Life, A guide to balance,
fulfilled and paying the bills. It was such a joy
to hang with a Lane and discuss making the music
world a better, more welcoming place for all. She even
(03:08):
gifts us with reading a section of her book, Let's Go.
I think a lot of people are actimidated by us,
(03:29):
and I think we could use this opportunity with you
to kind of see you're because you're so personable about
this process and the balance between writing and then finding
place for your music and sync, but never giving up
who you are. Maybe there's a story within Unicorn Sync
that could inspire artists to explore sync licensing a little
more seriously. Maybe if they haven't before.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, I mean so, I have this one artist who
have gotten a couple small placements for and his music
is stunning. His name is Brally Or, his artist name
is Brawley. His name is Jake, And he doesn't have
the kind of music that you'd be like, oh, that's
like sinky music, but he has really because I think
that that notion of sinkable music is kind of dated
(04:12):
and false and not it's generally like happy, chrippy, happy
music that would work well for selling baby food, but
not mochelles. But his music is super emotive and slow
and was just it was in this movie Winter, Spring,
Summer and Fall, and I just actually saw the full
thing on the airplane a couple of days ago. But
it's so evocative and there's nothing contrived about what he's doing,
(04:35):
you know, you can tell that it's an artist project.
So on the one hand, like that's really that's really
wonderful when you get to place those kind of songs.
And then on the other I have this group of girls,
this trio who had got also got a couple of
songs in that same movie, who do a whole range
of types of songs Moe Lochran is one of the people,
(04:56):
and she writes just across a whole bunch of genres.
Some of the stuff she co writes. She does a
lot of co writing. She's in Nashville is for artists
projects that are really deeply felt, and some of them
are just pop bangers, you know, like it's the song
that they play during the prom scene and those like.
I think, I think it really depends on what comes
(05:16):
naturally to you as to whether it's going to be
authentic feeling or not. You know, people talk a lot
about authis and authenticity. It's almost become like a meaningless word,
but I think it's basically like, are you personally feeling
the song is whether or not it's going to be authentic. So, like,
I understand wanting to get a placement in something as
(05:37):
a means of getting a sense of validation, you know,
for like I'm a real artist, like I've people have
heard my song. If that's something you really want and
your your music is really like slow and ballady, and
like you definitely can get that kind of music in
dramas and that kind of thing, but it is harder
to do because there's a lot of really high quality
(06:00):
music in that genre. Yeah, but what I would suggest
is that you keep doing that, do the best that
you can, and then if you also really want to
increase the chance that you might be able to get
a song placed, start co writing with other people who
do more upbeat pop or do hip hop and who
are already kind of in the sync lane. And if
(06:20):
you feel like you have something to offer in terms
of like your understanding of melody or song structure or lyrics,
start collaborating with people and try to get in that way.
Because there are like a lot of reality TV shows
that just need like pop hits totally, and there's they're
full of songs those kind of like reality TV uses
so much music. The pay isn't great, but it's it's
(06:43):
a foot in the door and it's you know, exciting.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, the MAILBAXX money, right, Like that's the real thing
for a lot of people, isn't it. Where they can
just keep putting their catalog up and growing the catalog
and trusting with the right people are trying to help
them put it in some place.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
Yeah, the resume builder too, I would imagine totally.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
I feel like there's a lot of people out there
kind of pushing the dream excuse me of sync licensing. Oh,
this is going to solve all your problems. You're going
to like make it in sync. You're gonna be making
like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands a year, and
it's going to be great. And like, there's just a
really big difference between somebody who is a singer songwriter
(07:23):
who plays guitar and sings and maybe has hires a
band to do an album, and somebody who's a full
time producer who like produces in a range of genres,
but particularly in pop and hip hop, and who is
able to produce top line sing has the full suite
of talents. That kind of person who's just one hundred
(07:46):
percent in music and like can work in the box.
I can like create tracks and sing and write. That
kind of person can earn a living through sync if
they also happen to be willing to like go to
the conferences, they've got really great tastes or like there's
like a certain personality and skill set that is needed
(08:08):
in order to be like full time sink, and that
most musicians that I know are are not in that category.
So sink has to be it's like a supplementary thing.
It's a thing that you want to like kind of
like the atomic habits. You know, you're doing your your
forty five minutes of creativity a day. You want to
be doing your whatever, half an hour of sink admin
(08:30):
just reaching out to people, networking whatever. Doing that a
day as just like a part of what you're doing
as a musician, you know. And then fingers crossed, that's
something that something lands, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Can we take all of this and go into your
book the living you know, living in a music centered life,
totally balance fulfillment, paying the bills.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yes, you know this is a I don't know, am
I allowed to reveal when this interview is happening?
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, so this is we're in August. So this is
like the author copy that Amazon sent me. You know,
you can't not for resale, so you can't see the
full cover.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Like you wanted to resell it.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Well, it's just it's like my first chance to look
at it in the printed form, so I can like
correct any errors, you know, so I'll still have to
like go back.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
How does that feel? Let's start there.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
It's pretty cool. It's a real live book. Yeah, it's exciting.
I'm stoked on it.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Are you going to do an audiobook with it?
Speaker 4 (09:27):
Yes, eventually I will do an audiobook. Right now, I'm
just trying to get this one this out.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
And then will you use your own voice or hire
a British act?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Good question? Maybe I should just do my own British
accent right there you go, or Irish accent. I was
born in Ireland, so I can do a decent, decent
mixed Irish accent. Yeah, but no, I'll use my own voice.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Okay, maybe at the end if people wait around after
the credits, we'll just have you read a paragraph in
an Irish act and we'll do that at the very
very end.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
So don't just pray.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
That nobody from Ireland is listening because my accent is
like some like weird mongrel mix of.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
Will be the judge of that? Will be the judge.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So maybe we started talking just why did you write
this book? Where did it come from? What's the source
of this?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Yeah? So I've been thinking about it for a few
I started writing it like a few years ago, and
then I put it down. I'd interviewed a couple of
people for it, and I put it down being like, no,
I'm not ready to write the book. I'm still doing
the thing still. I hadn't gotten into stinct licensing yet,
and I was like, I still want to push my
music and try really hard. But I wrote it because
I felt like I felt like the books around music
(10:34):
that I was reading or I had read were like
not they were they were either two nuts and bolts,
like to getting into the details of how to, like
how to become famous and like just the nitty gritty,
and or they were very Rick Rubin That's that book.
I loved it, but it was all very like connecting
(10:57):
to the source and bringing out your inner creative, which
I love, which is great, And I wanted something that
spoke in the tone of that that like kind of
honored the creativity and honored just like the right brain
component of artistry and how you're doing it because you
love it, and then also looked at what does it
take to earn a living at the same time, and
(11:19):
the fact that like, not everybody has the capacity to
move to New York or Nashville or Los Angeles to
pursue fame, and a lot of people want to. A
lot of people love music and want to pursue music
and want to figure out, like what can I do
to be a musician where I am, you know, given
the life that I have. And so that's that's why
I wrote the book.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that
are going to connect with that. I mean, last night
or two nights ago, I was playing up and Aspen
and this the other band that was there's guys from
the Motete.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
Do you know that group?
Speaker 4 (11:50):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
One of the guitar players or keyboard players was talking
about how he doesn't play gigs for hire, like the
corporate or things or anything, because he feels like it
takes too much energy out of him to be able
to go home and make and create his own music,
and that is so important to him to have that energy.
(12:11):
He'd rather go work a non music job and then
come back and do that. And it's obviously working well
for him because he's playing in a band that's actually
quite successful and been around for a long time, but he.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
Still has to have a job.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, And so but that's where he finds his happy
place is in that balance. And I think, to me,
kind of what I take from what you're saying is
that there needs to be a little bit of help
guiding us to finding balance, because we can become so
overwhelmed by the pressure, so scared of trying hard enough
or taking some risks. So I really think your book's
(12:45):
going to have a great place to do it. What
would you say you would put the meaning of the
music centered life to be?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
So, I think living a music centered life is basically
where you were. Being a musician is at the core
of your sense of identity. Like this guy that you're
speaking about, it's clearly like he's a musician. That's who
he is. I don't know what else he does for
his day job, right, but it's that's the that's the
main component of it. And so it's trying to craft
(13:14):
a life where you can where that is, where that
can be the main thing that you're focused on. And
you know, it talks about status and hierarchy and relating
to other people and how they kind of like see you,
and it's basically I just want to create a permission
structure for people to be musicians and to identify as musicians.
(13:36):
And like you were saying, like he says that the
corporate gigs take too much out of them, Like, I
totally see feel like that's why I charge a high
rate because it's it's like about it's an energy exchange.
You know, what you need to be getting taking in
as much as you're giving out at least you want
to be you know, taking in a bit more hopefully. Right,
So if if you if you're playing in front of
(13:57):
an audience that's super excited about your music, it's going
to fill you up, you know, it's going to make
you feel really excited. And if you're not, then the
energy needs to come in the form of money, where
where kind of you're getting you know, literal energy to
put calories in your body.
Speaker 6 (14:14):
Yeah, I one hundred percent agree with that.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
And it's funny too because somebody else said, like in business,
there's a saying that says, if you don't give as
much energy at least as what you're charging, then your
business is going to fail. And I do think there's
like both ends of that ying and yang are true.
It's like maybe sometimes we are out of balance one
way or one way or the other and that's why
(14:36):
things aren't aren't quite working.
Speaker 6 (14:38):
Yeah, I feel.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Like sometimes for myself, the hardest part of that is
recognizing when it's time to say raise your rates, or
recognizing when it's time to say no, even though your
instinct is like, this is money, right, money, Yeah, So
how would you guide that as a balance?
Speaker 4 (14:57):
I think that if you're people are saying yes to
you all the time, Like if you put your rate
out and people are like, great, you're not charging enough.
You want to be charging an amount where you're not
getting all the gigs, because then you know, you know,
it is scary. And I think there's definitely like there's
a sense that a lot of musicians have of like,
who do I think I am like charging this rate
(15:18):
for something that's fun? Well, you know it's not that
fun if no one's listening to you. You know, there's a
lot of work involved in the corporate gig thing. And
I think that that what I love about the guy
who's not doing the corporate gigs is that he's making
that choice for himself and he's not like because there's
(15:39):
a lot of people in our society like when people say, hey, oh,
well what do you do and you say and I
say like, oh, I'm a musician, and they're like, oh,
so how do you make money? And I say well,
you know, I play gay play wedding and corporate events,
and then I also do this synk licensing thing. And
people really people really want you to be like consistent,
you know, like, oh, if you're a musician, then then
(16:00):
I want you to be doing all music. And so
this guy probably has to face like, yeah, I'm in
this band, I'm a musician, and Bene also like do
accounting or whatever. He doesn't s Yeah, he.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Is phenomenal when he puted, you know, like they're not
a single script.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
There's no hesitation in his mind.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
His confidence was oozing out of his performance, and I
thought to myself, it's like part of that might be
a part of this too. It's like he feels like
he's doing exactly what he wants to do, and that
helps him perform at his best totally. And I wonder
sometimes if people when they get burned out or when
they when you you know, when you've been at a
gig and you're like, oh, I should have charged more
for this, Like yeah, just realizing that it's four hours away,
(16:40):
I should have been charging more for this m M.
And part of that creeps into your performance, like why
did I say yes to four of these this week
and now you're like performing at half masked because you're
so full of that anxiety of what you're doing to
yours though.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Yeah, I know, the chat, the mental chatter in your head.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The last thing I wanted to say is just, first
of I mean, how great it is to talk to
you and to hear your story and just to kind
of get an understanding of the way you've created your
life and how it's just a shining example how someone
doesn't have to follow a roadmap as much as maybe
listen to the guides and just choose to do what
it feels right.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
This is kind of what I'm taking away from you.
But with your book, who is it that you're hoping
will find it?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
So? I feel like there's a couple group, there's there's
I have. There's three groups. The group number one is
seventeen to twenty five year olds who are trying to
figure out what am I going to do? You know
with my life? You know, and should I? Should I
go to music school? Should I go to college? Should
I not go to any of these? Should I? Just
so that's a group that I am interested in reaching,
just because I think it has a lot of good
(17:46):
information for people who are just starting out. Then there's
there's people who are already musicians who are you know,
they're gigging, they're trying to do the thing, And what
I hope that this book would give them is just
a sense of like solidarity and community and like you're
not out there alone, and like I see you trying
to do the thing, and I see that it's you know,
(18:07):
it's challenging, but and I honor the courage and the creativity.
And then the third group is people reassessing their lives,
maybe in early retirement, trying to figure out where what
can I do? Can I still be a musician? Is
there any path for me? And there is, you know,
and sink licensing and co writing in sync licensing especially
(18:28):
is one of those paths. And yeah, there's never it's
never too late to make music a central part of
your life. I think so.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
In that last one, I heard forty eight year olds
with their birthdays in October.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Yeah, with dogs that have two problems.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
To Yes, I'm writing there and missing lakes missings.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
Okay, it's a really good marketing tactic.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, this is great and I can't wait to get
my hands on a physical copy of the book too.
Are we going to be able to order an Amazon
anytime soon?
Speaker 4 (19:00):
So, like mid mid to late October is where I'm
aiming for, but I can't quite get that quite give
the exact day. I would love to give you the
exact date once I.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
Have it for Yeah, we'll post that.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Whatever, But yeah, October is the goal.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Would you mind if we had you back on in October?
Just maybe for like a ten minute talk about it
so we can sure?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
I mind? I would love that. I would love that.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
And then would you mind just reading one paragraph and
Irish accent?
Speaker 6 (19:27):
Please?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Could I? What if I you can credit in a
Canadian accent?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I did hear a little Canadian accent in there, don't
you know? And if you don't like your performance, we
don't have to share it. But it'd be fun just
to see what happens.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
So you seriously want me to do the night ros?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
I mean, it would really be fun just to put
it at the end after credits.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
And did I what if can I also read a
piece like in my normal voice?
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Let's do that first and then that way?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah, okay, let's do that first. Okay, this is from
the very end, so and then part of it is
a quote that I didn't write anyway. Maybe you've read
this passage before, especially as it's been popularized recently by
Brene Brown. It's a quote from Theodore Roosevelt that bears repeating.
It is not the critic who counts, not the man
(20:13):
who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where
the doer of deeds could have done them better. The
credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood,
who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again,
because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But
who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows
great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a
(20:36):
worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end
the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst,
if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so
that his plays shall never be with those cold and
timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. Well known artists, writers,
and celebrities have a bias that says it's natural to
become famous and make a lot of money. Even if
(20:57):
they've had huge advantages in great life back, they often
conclude that they earned their success. Usually they believe themselves
wholeheartedly when they tell you that if you just had
their mindset or work ethic or whatever, you'd be successful too.
You rarely hear from the people who work super hard,
have a positive mindset, and are doing just okay. It's
easy to get lulled into the notion that if you're
(21:18):
not succeeding in music, you're messing up. Here's an excerpt
from a Wired article from twenty thirteen that's important to consider.
As of January fifteenth, twenty thirteen, the number of pages
in the category of living people on Wikipedia is six
hundred and four thousand. Then the global population is over
seven billion. This means that the fraction of living famous
(21:40):
people is zero point zero zero zero zero eight six
not one percent, zero point one percent, not zero point
zero one percent, but zero point zero zero eight six percent.
If you're not famous enough to have a Wikipedia page,
is it really because you don't have a positive enough
mindset or strong enough work ethic, or is it because
(22:00):
you're a normal person doing their best to be extraordinary
and probably doing a great job in a hypercapitalist world
that's warped by advertising and false expectations. You have the
right to be creative and to make your music, whether
or not you get to the place where you have
a Wikipedia page. You deserve the connection and beauty that
comes with creating, and you deserve food, shelter, community, care,
(22:22):
and love. But the universe doesn't owe you more money
or fame. You already have a lot of money compared
to most people in the world. It just may feel
like you don't because the people on TV, social media
and in ads look rich. There's huge inequality in the US,
and it often runs along racial lines because of historical
exploitation and oppression. It's extremely unfair. At the same time,
(22:42):
if you're reading this book, you're still most likely among
the wealthiest ten percent of people on the planet. There
are hundreds of millions of people who are just as
human as us, just as real as us, and who
have just as much right to live a happy and
creative life as us, who pray to their God or
the universe just like us, probably more than us, and
who are also extremely poor, meaning they're regularly at risk
of dying from poverty related issues such as illness, files
(23:04):
or malnutrition. Yes, Inequality and injustice in our own country hurts.
Feeling low in the status hierarchy hurts. Having a mental
health issue that stems in part from being disrespected in
that hierarchy hurts, And at least materially, most of us
in the first world are doing well relative to many
others in the world. It's a both and situation. What
if we thought this way instead? The universe doesn't owe me.
(23:27):
I owe the universe. I owe it for giving me life.
I owe it to the universe to do my best
to be happy and to be generous and kind to
people around me. Love generates more love. I owe the
world my love. What's the best way for me to
keep a roof over my head and put myself in
a position to generate love in the world. Everyone has
a different path. There are many different paths open to us.
(23:48):
If you grew up poorer then most people in your country,
you might feel a strong desire to prioritize money and
have the things you lacked as a kid. Maybe you
need to do that before you can feel secure enough
to be happy. Sometimes that means you make a chance
choice if that's available to you. To get an education
and a well paying job and do music on the side.
Or maybe your soul is telling you that you need
to immerse yourself in the world of music. You play
(24:09):
wedding gigs, drive for uber, teach lessons and write, record
and perform your music as much as possible. You learn
as much as you can about sync licensing. You form
a band, you book your own tours, you build a following.
Maybe it works out amazingly and you stay on that path,
or maybe you transition to some other mix of making
music and money. None of the options are wrong, despite
what others might project. There's no such thing as failure
(24:32):
if you do what makes you happy and helps you
give the world your best. The task is to pick
what's right for you at this moment, and you don't
have to get it right on the first go round.
You just have to keep going.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
That was a bit long, it was a bit perfect.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I'm so selfishly happy that I get to show up
every week and have an opportunity to hear something like that.
So even for our listeners, I'm happy for them too,
But right now, selfishly, that just made my month.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
Oh thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
We might just end it on that one, because that
was such a mic drob of a.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I'm going to need two sentences in an Irish accent.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
I almost got you out of it.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Yeah, all right, there's two more paragraphs before the end
of this piece. I'm gonna do that in Irish accent.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
All right.
Speaker 7 (25:21):
Spend more time doing what brings you joy. Play as
much music as you can, challenge yourself, improve your skills,
work on your craft, and do projects you find worthy.
You might end up living a pretty normal life. You
might end up famous, you might end up somewhere in between.
But as long as you work hard and are kind
to yourself and others, you'll get somewhere that you can
be proud of. Thanks for being brave, passionate and hard working,
(25:45):
and for blessing the world with your beautiful art. May
you live a long, happy, music centered life.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
I was born there. I do have a lot of relatives.
You know, it's.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Really excellent, It's fantastic.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
That was really but actually I do think you should
consider it.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the audio books, we'll do two versions.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Right, yeah, or like all of your quotes switched to
that you know and like to give them, like with
the weight yeah, totally.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
For spending time here with us and just sharing your
story with us. I know there's a lot of people
who are going to be really happy to hear what
you're saying and validate how they're feeling.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
So thank you so much for putting it out there
in the world.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Thank you guys so much for having me. I really
appreciate it. It's nice to meet you too.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
So what would you say is the intimidation factor of
the Sink world since you've been to all these conferences.
Speaker 6 (26:55):
That you have to know how to do everything? I don't.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I almost feel like that is the universal intimidation about
the music industry now in general, is that you're supposed
to know how to do everything. And parts of that
are true, but the other part is the gatekeeper end
of it, that if you don't know the right people,
your music has to be so exceptional that it gets
(27:20):
you through the door.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
Because there's so much.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Music and a lot of people are pretty good at recording,
so it's intimidating to be like, is my music anything special?
Speaker 6 (27:34):
In the Sink world?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I mean, you can have it be important to you, right,
be special special? Sounds like a degrading word, but to
be something that's meaningful. But yet in the sink world,
it's just one of a million, right, And so it's
really intimidating to try to push your music in there
because a lot of times you won't get that reaction
(27:56):
that you're hoping for from them.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
She seemed to break it down though, And the way
I relate to it is like booking venues. You could
say how many bands are trying to get a slot
and a venue any single night? And she said, treat
this like you can carve out a small, consistent daily action.
You're networking, you're pitching catalog building instead of you know,
(28:23):
banking on these big wins. And just with venues, when
you're planning a tour or looking to get into a
venue around your town, you're taking emails and you know
you're setting five or ten a day, five or ten
a day, five or ten a day. Do you find
that to be true too as far as how you
get to meet those gatekeepers.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I think consistency is king or queen here. Yeah, I
don't think there's any other way around it. Those people
that are relentlessly going to put the effort in will,
like she said, in her quote in the last episode,
they will get the results that they're happy with, because
there isn't any magic formula there.
Speaker 6 (29:01):
It is just do it until it works.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
And if you want it bad enough and you feel
motivated enough to keep going, you will eventually get some
success out of this stuff.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
And then the.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Other part of that too, which comes back to our
community aspect of how important it is to network, how
important it is to lean on each other. But it's
also really important and very powerful to be an active
co writer. And it's because anybody that's listening that's a songwriter,
you probably already know this, Like, you can't really grow
(29:35):
as a songwriter in an isolated atmosphere. There's so much
that you get from each other when you write songs together.
But there's the other end of that too, which is
you learn other styles. Right, you learn not only other styles,
but you also learn and get access to all the
other writer's connections. All of the things that they can
(29:57):
offer is now combined with all the things you have
to offer. So there's there's the aspect of the creative
part and there's the aspect of the business part that
both benefits so hugely from connecting and co writing.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Do you remember interviewing Daphnie Will season one when she
said she'd have like anywhere from like seven to nine
the songwriting you know a pointments almost yeah, writing session.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Week, Yeah, yeah, And that is something we emphasize at
the University of Colorado, Denver that I constantly bring up
because because it's uncomfortable at first, but especially you haven't
done it before, and it's the same reason that you're
intimidated by the sink world. It's like, is what I
have to offer going to be of any use to
any other co writers?
Speaker 6 (30:40):
Because you also should.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Be writing with people that you really like their music, right.
You don't want to go pick the person that writes
music that you don't like because that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
So them, sure them as well. I'm sure you know
you're hanging out. You have to get along.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes, you have to get along. It's such an intimate experience. Yeah,
So there's that part of it too, and we all
work differently. Co writing is its whole thing, you know,
but it really is a critical part and it is
critical in the songwriting for songwriting, for sync. It's also
critical for songwriting for pitching to other artists. Anybody that
(31:15):
wants to really be a songwriter first has to have
co writing as part of their process.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Talk about her book, It was interesting to hear why
she started it, and I felt like it was parallel
and in sync with why we started this podcast.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It's funny because it's like, don't you don't want it
to be something that when we talk about allowing people
to be themselves, sometimes it gets wrapped up in this
idea that that means that if you feel like being lazy,
that you can be lazy, or that if you don't
feel like doing it, don't do it right. What is
that generation that everyone says does that. I'm not going
(31:52):
to call anybody out, but I do think that sometimes
when we say you should be you, you should be
allowed to be who you are, that that's taken as
if you think you're lazy, then you got it, go
be lazy.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
But that's not at all.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
And it also comes back to this idea that sometimes
the way that the market wants you to find your place,
the universe wants you to find your place isn't a
straight line. It isn't going to be in a way
that you can predict, and the only way to get
there is by following the areas in which you feel
like you should be existing.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
So living a music centered life a guide to balance
fulfillment and paying the bills. She said she wrote this
book because she wish it already existed, one that balances
artistry and real world livelihood, and it bridges that gap
between the nuts and bolts business manuals and abstract creative guides.
(32:48):
And from her reading just that, you know that last
blurb of her book was already something inspiring that I
can't wait to get my hands on.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, I mean, it's really does serve a small niche
that that isn't covered by anybody else that I felt
like I wanted.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
As soon as she started reading.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It, I was like, oh, I want this, you know,
and that that's a really good tign and like that
you feel that way the moment she starts offering the
content and not just talking about mean, there's a lot
of books right of the manuals, if you will, about
the manuals about how to get the gig, how to
(33:30):
how to charge more, how how to hustle, how to connect,
how to network and get the signed gig, you know
that signed with a label, and how all of that
is these manuals. There's so many of and sometimes they're
all repeating themselves, but when we're never really saying like,
maybe maybe you shouldn't be putting so much emphasis on
(33:54):
either you do that or you don't, right.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
Or you make money or you don't.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
So so many times, you know you're in Europe, someone
asks you what you do. You're not saying what you
do for a living. You're saying, I'm a musician. And
that's what she's saying here that there's so many times
when someone asks what you do. I mean, the first
thing is to say what you do to make an income?
But a music centered life means defining yourself as a
musician regardless of income.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Sort yeah, because they can coexist.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Yeah, just like here you did it your friend or
it was your friend. Right.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Who says he from the motet that he does not
want another job, you know, doing music in a way
that he doesn't enjoy doing music. He'd rather, you know,
be an arborist or work a nine to five somewhere
else so he can have all that creative juice ready
to go for when it's time to play music the
(34:49):
way he wants to express himself.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And people don't own that like he owned it. He
owned it in a way that said this is by
a choice, this is by design, because he could easily
get a lot of a their gigs that he doesn't
want to take because he doesn't want to lower the
juices where they're too low to be used when he
needs them, you know. And I do think there's so
(35:11):
much truth to that. I did experience that slump after
I win full time for a little bit. I was like,
I'm tired, Like I don't want to go down and write.
Speaker 6 (35:20):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
That's that's the exchange of the energy that we were discussing,
and you have to be aware of that. And sometimes
burnout itself is your inner monologue or your inner spirit
telling you you're overdue in one area. Right, you got
to cut back so that we can balance this back out.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
And Elaine was saying, if that gig drains you will
compensate that energy then monetarily, you know, like if you
don't want to really do the gig, then you're going
to have to pay me the next amount in order
for me to make it worth my time and my energy. Yeah,
and then it frees you up for taking gigs it
might not paid that much.
Speaker 5 (36:01):
Let's say that you and I are doing in September that.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I mean, it's nice to get paid to get there
and get back, so at least we're even. But you
and I are not really talking about how much it
gets paid because we get a chance to be in
the same town, at the same place for an evening
and hang out and share some tunes.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
Yeah, you have to know what you're doing it for.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, And that I liked how she said that that
you have to decide whether or not you're gonna, you know,
take it for the money and if if you're if
everyone's saying yes quickly, then you're probably charging too little
for your value.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And then she also discussed that the guilt of having
a non music job that she says in this book
she wants to reframe that. So this is balance, it's
not failure.
Speaker 6 (36:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, there's so much there and and it's also really important. Again,
it's another conversation that needs to be supported amongst the community.
There is a sense of guilt for a lot of
people that if there aren't full time then they're not
a real musician.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
There is that sense again, especially for that younger group
there's nobody that has ever made it straight out of
I don't know, high school or college without doing some
other jobs and eventually making a choice to go full
time because of some reason. But then there's plenty of
people that just tried it and don't like it. Right,
(37:24):
there's plenty of people that don't like being a full
time musician, not just because it drains their energy or
they have to play shows they don't want to play,
but because they don't like that lifestyle or that lifestyle
only fits you for a certain time period of your
life and you grow out of it and you're like,
I'm kind of done with that, you know, And again
the guilt might be there, but again, this music centered
life can be.
Speaker 6 (37:43):
It's just about the art, right, It's just about the music.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's not about being something that is kind of defined
outside of you.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Brad was talking to a drummer friend of ours and
he said, you know, what would you do if you
had the opportunity to go for a month on the road.
It's like, I don't think i'd take it. I have
two kids at home. They have they're doing so well,
and everything they do, I want to be around to
see it. I want to share this part of my
life with them and their life. So you know, it's
(38:15):
not it's not for everybody. Yeah, that who's that aspect
of it? You know, who's a say you can't play
drums And like Brian McCrae, who doesn't have kids, but
still even now we'll record for musicians.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
All over the world in his studio and never have
to go on the road.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Talking about who this book was for, I mean, certainly
she knows what she's targeting it for. You know, when
she talked about the young musicians, she talked about working
musicians who need encouragement and solidarity. She talked about older
adults who are early retirees that want to now pick
it up. Right, there's all these all these different groups
of people that maybe never gave themselves that chance to
(38:59):
listen to that inner voice and do it the way
that they want to do. So it's about recentering your
music back into that music centered life, And to me,
it's that's all of us, right, because we're all going
to be losing that energy from time to time in
this journey. Right now, I think for me, I'm recentering
to the music, and maybe this conversation is kind of
(39:24):
what started that because this was a couple of weeks
ago and I realized that I'm I'm sort of off
that center and that part of it I miss, you know.
So it's really useful to have these conversations because it's
so good for us to make sure we're doing what
it is that we really want to be doing.
Speaker 6 (39:42):
With all this.
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Well, she makes it, you know, very clear. There's no
one path. Success doesn't require a Wikipedia page.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
If you're creating, sharing, and staying kind to yourself, you're
already succeeding. Whether you're saying that with an English or
an Irish accent.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
True.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
Well, Chris, this is our last episode, Chris.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You excited to take some time off and go hit
the road. Get to drive out to the Midwest in September.
I mean, we have one last action step for the season.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Season five.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
We won't be posting any new content, full episode content
until the February or spring of twenty twenty.
Speaker 6 (40:26):
Six, which is crazy.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
But we will be posting a lot of new content
in the short form and with little snippets of other
interviews and stuff like that. So we're gonna do that
a lot more that we've ever done before. This has
been a really wonderful season, and we are so grateful
for everyone's support and engagement and the continued growth of
whatever it is that we're doing here. I'm definitely gonna
(40:50):
take some of this time in the off season to
recenter myself and take Elaine's advice here on this and
make sure that I'm doing all of this for the
right reasons. But it has done nothing but double down
on my interest in making a bigger effort to help
everyone in this music industry get what they want out
of doing art that they make.
Speaker 6 (41:11):
So thank you Dave for.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Putting up with me all season and helping us improve
all these technical sides of things as well.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Thanks for not being annoyed that I cut you off
all the time and my horrible jokes.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So I appreciate it and the opportunity to do this,
because I tell you it is something I really look
forward to every week.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Although we'll be playing show together if anyone's in the
Chicago Land area in the first week of September, which
should be about when this comes out.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah, we like to hackle each other while the other
one plays their tunes, just to see if how their
heckle chops are up you know it's right.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Well, so for you guys, a little easier action step
than heckling. For you guys, our last action step of
the season is this finding where you fit is a
frequent topic here I'm Music tip Jar. This is that
opportunity to continue making a clear definition of where it
is that you can bring high value. If you can
(42:13):
define that, everything changes all to then it's taking is
to target getting to that point. But today we do
it from an angle where it's more about where you
naturally fit and less about any monetary analysis. The action
step is this list the things that you are best
at and enjoy the most. Where are the places in
(42:35):
the industry that those skills will be a strong fit.
This is a fun thing to sit and think about.
If you can find a partner and do this together,
it actually can really help unlock some ideas. And remember
that community is the whole point of making something out
of nothing in this industry. We know that your time
is valuable. We appreciate you spending this time and the
(42:56):
season here with us at Musicians tip Jar and being
a part of this community. It is our hope that
you feel that sense of community here and that you'll
help spread the word to make us all stronger. If
you'd like to get a hold of us or Elaine Ryan,
what's the best way to do that.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Check out musicians tipjar dot com for tools, resources and
discounts built specifically to help keep you up on the
finance side of your music business. Reach out to us
anytime at musicians tipjar at gmail dot com.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
We'd love to hear your story.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
If this episode resonates with you, share it with the friend,
leave a review, or hit that like button if you're
watching on YouTube. That helps us grow the community and
support more musicians like you. To learn more about Elaine
Ryan and listen to some of her tunes on Instagram,
you could find her at Elaine Ryan Music. Her website
is Elainryan dot ca, and you can find more about
(43:45):
her sinc Music for a Change at sync Music for
a Change dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
As always, thank you for joining us, and remember there
is already enough for everyone, You just need to know
how to get it. Until next time on behalf of
Dave Tampon and myself Chris Webb, Stay happy, healthy and wealthy.
As it's been said many times, but bears repeating, success
is not the key to happiness.
Speaker 6 (44:11):
Happiness is the key to success.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
This is Musicians tip Chat Somebody, Somebody.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or
professional advice.
Speaker 5 (44:31):
Please consult an appropriate to tax, legal, business, or financial
professional for individualized advice.
Speaker 7 (44:37):
Individual results are not guaranteed, and all discussed strategies have
the potential for profitis loss.
Speaker 5 (44:43):
The hosts are operating on behalf of Musicians tip jar
LLLC exclusively
Welcome to the show that explores the methods and strategies
on rocking the financial side of your music business. With
over forty years combined experience, here are your hosts, Chris
Webb and Dave Tamkin.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to you, musician Tip Jar where we talk about
musicians and money, where we strive to find our fit,
helping you in your life's pursuit and hope to help
you slip into it a little easier. I'm Chris Webb,
joined by my co host who just slipped into something
a little more comfortable, Dave Tamkin.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Our last episode for the season, Chris, I slipped out
of my pants no pants. For this episode, it's all
party going full ways down.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Today we sit down with Unicorn Sink Agency owner, musician
and now author Elaine Ryan. We discuss finding your most
valuable fit in the marketplace that is the music industry,
how to live a music centered life, and how to
effectively speak with an Irish accent. Today's quote comes from
our guest Elane Ryan. She said, as you work hard
(01:10):
and are kind to yourself and others, you'll get somewhere
that you can be proud of.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
This week's nonprofit is intermusicsf dot org. Intermusic SF is
dedicated to sustaining and nourishing the Bay Area creative environment
by offering dynamic programming and vital resources for music creators
and audience members. Where they believe that everyone should have
equitable access to world class musical experiences. Musical experiences promote
(01:37):
cultural connections, encourage community engagement, and provide pathways for a
deeper commitment to civic arts for artists and audiences. Music
creators and presenters face financial barriers to build accomplished careers
and require professional development tools and financial services for sustainability.
Please check out more at intermusicsf dot org. If you
(01:57):
find this information useful, please rate and subscribe the podcast
and also slam that like button if you're on YouTube
so we can help keep you up on the finance
side of your music business.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Elaine Ryan is a musician and sink agent who has
made her living in music for over fifteen years. She
has toured throughout Canada and the US and Europe, and
has released four full length albums in EP and numerous singles.
Her songs have been featured in ads and on TV
shows airing on both NBC and Amazon. She is the
(02:26):
founder of sync license agency Unicorn Sync, where she has
helped a growing network of indie artists land placements in
film and television. She also co founded SYNC Music for
a Change, a nonprofit initiative connecting musicians with sink opportunities
while raising money for charitable and progressive causes. Elayne is
a member of the Recording Academy. She lives in the
(02:48):
San Francisco Bay area with her husband, her journal, and
her guitar. Most recently, she is about to release her
first book, Living a Music Centered Life, A guide to balance,
fulfilled and paying the bills. It was such a joy
to hang with a Lane and discuss making the music
world a better, more welcoming place for all. She even
(03:08):
gifts us with reading a section of her book, Let's Go.
I think a lot of people are actimidated by us,
(03:29):
and I think we could use this opportunity with you
to kind of see you're because you're so personable about
this process and the balance between writing and then finding
place for your music and sync, but never giving up
who you are. Maybe there's a story within Unicorn Sync
that could inspire artists to explore sync licensing a little
more seriously. Maybe if they haven't before.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, I mean so, I have this one artist who
have gotten a couple small placements for and his music
is stunning. His name is Brally Or, his artist name
is Brawley. His name is Jake, And he doesn't have
the kind of music that you'd be like, oh, that's
like sinky music, but he has really because I think
that that notion of sinkable music is kind of dated
(04:12):
and false and not it's generally like happy, chrippy, happy
music that would work well for selling baby food, but
not mochelles. But his music is super emotive and slow
and was just it was in this movie Winter, Spring,
Summer and Fall, and I just actually saw the full
thing on the airplane a couple of days ago. But
it's so evocative and there's nothing contrived about what he's doing,
(04:35):
you know, you can tell that it's an artist project.
So on the one hand, like that's really that's really
wonderful when you get to place those kind of songs.
And then on the other I have this group of girls,
this trio who had got also got a couple of
songs in that same movie, who do a whole range
of types of songs Moe Lochran is one of the people,
(04:56):
and she writes just across a whole bunch of genres.
Some of the stuff she co writes. She does a
lot of co writing. She's in Nashville is for artists
projects that are really deeply felt, and some of them
are just pop bangers, you know, like it's the song
that they play during the prom scene and those like.
I think, I think it really depends on what comes
(05:16):
naturally to you as to whether it's going to be
authentic feeling or not. You know, people talk a lot
about authis and authenticity. It's almost become like a meaningless word,
but I think it's basically like, are you personally feeling
the song is whether or not it's going to be authentic. So, like,
I understand wanting to get a placement in something as
(05:37):
a means of getting a sense of validation, you know,
for like I'm a real artist, like I've people have
heard my song. If that's something you really want and
your your music is really like slow and ballady, and
like you definitely can get that kind of music in
dramas and that kind of thing, but it is harder
to do because there's a lot of really high quality
(06:00):
music in that genre. Yeah, but what I would suggest
is that you keep doing that, do the best that
you can, and then if you also really want to
increase the chance that you might be able to get
a song placed, start co writing with other people who
do more upbeat pop or do hip hop and who
are already kind of in the sync lane. And if
(06:20):
you feel like you have something to offer in terms
of like your understanding of melody or song structure or lyrics,
start collaborating with people and try to get in that way.
Because there are like a lot of reality TV shows
that just need like pop hits totally, and there's they're
full of songs those kind of like reality TV uses
so much music. The pay isn't great, but it's it's
(06:43):
a foot in the door and it's you know, exciting.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, the MAILBAXX money, right, Like that's the real thing
for a lot of people, isn't it. Where they can
just keep putting their catalog up and growing the catalog
and trusting with the right people are trying to help
them put it in some place.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
Yeah, the resume builder too, I would imagine totally.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
I feel like there's a lot of people out there
kind of pushing the dream excuse me of sync licensing. Oh,
this is going to solve all your problems. You're going
to like make it in sync. You're gonna be making
like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands a year, and
it's going to be great. And like, there's just a
really big difference between somebody who is a singer songwriter
(07:23):
who plays guitar and sings and maybe has hires a
band to do an album, and somebody who's a full
time producer who like produces in a range of genres,
but particularly in pop and hip hop, and who is
able to produce top line sing has the full suite
of talents. That kind of person who's just one hundred
(07:46):
percent in music and like can work in the box.
I can like create tracks and sing and write. That
kind of person can earn a living through sync if
they also happen to be willing to like go to
the conferences, they've got really great tastes or like there's
like a certain personality and skill set that is needed
(08:08):
in order to be like full time sink, and that
most musicians that I know are are not in that category.
So sink has to be it's like a supplementary thing.
It's a thing that you want to like kind of
like the atomic habits. You know, you're doing your your
forty five minutes of creativity a day. You want to
be doing your whatever, half an hour of sink admin
(08:30):
just reaching out to people, networking whatever. Doing that a
day as just like a part of what you're doing
as a musician, you know. And then fingers crossed, that's
something that something lands, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Can we take all of this and go into your
book the living you know, living in a music centered life,
totally balance fulfillment, paying the bills.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yes, you know this is a I don't know, am
I allowed to reveal when this interview is happening?
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, so this is we're in August. So this is
like the author copy that Amazon sent me. You know,
you can't not for resale, so you can't see the
full cover.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Like you wanted to resell it.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Well, it's just it's like my first chance to look
at it in the printed form, so I can like
correct any errors, you know, so I'll still have to
like go back.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
How does that feel? Let's start there.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
It's pretty cool. It's a real live book. Yeah, it's exciting.
I'm stoked on it.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Are you going to do an audiobook with it?
Speaker 4 (09:27):
Yes, eventually I will do an audiobook. Right now, I'm
just trying to get this one this out.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
And then will you use your own voice or hire
a British act?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Good question? Maybe I should just do my own British
accent right there you go, or Irish accent. I was
born in Ireland, so I can do a decent, decent
mixed Irish accent. Yeah, but no, I'll use my own voice.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Okay, maybe at the end if people wait around after
the credits, we'll just have you read a paragraph in
an Irish act and we'll do that at the very
very end.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
So don't just pray.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
That nobody from Ireland is listening because my accent is
like some like weird mongrel mix of.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
Will be the judge of that? Will be the judge.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So maybe we started talking just why did you write
this book? Where did it come from? What's the source
of this?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Yeah? So I've been thinking about it for a few
I started writing it like a few years ago, and
then I put it down. I'd interviewed a couple of
people for it, and I put it down being like, no,
I'm not ready to write the book. I'm still doing
the thing still. I hadn't gotten into stinct licensing yet,
and I was like, I still want to push my
music and try really hard. But I wrote it because
I felt like I felt like the books around music
(10:34):
that I was reading or I had read were like
not they were they were either two nuts and bolts,
like to getting into the details of how to, like
how to become famous and like just the nitty gritty,
and or they were very Rick Rubin That's that book.
I loved it, but it was all very like connecting
(10:57):
to the source and bringing out your inner creative, which
I love, which is great, And I wanted something that
spoke in the tone of that that like kind of
honored the creativity and honored just like the right brain
component of artistry and how you're doing it because you
love it, and then also looked at what does it
take to earn a living at the same time, and
(11:19):
the fact that like, not everybody has the capacity to
move to New York or Nashville or Los Angeles to
pursue fame, and a lot of people want to. A
lot of people love music and want to pursue music
and want to figure out, like what can I do
to be a musician where I am, you know, given
the life that I have. And so that's that's why
I wrote the book.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that
are going to connect with that. I mean, last night
or two nights ago, I was playing up and Aspen
and this the other band that was there's guys from
the Motete.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
Do you know that group?
Speaker 4 (11:50):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
One of the guitar players or keyboard players was talking
about how he doesn't play gigs for hire, like the
corporate or things or anything, because he feels like it
takes too much energy out of him to be able
to go home and make and create his own music,
and that is so important to him to have that energy.
(12:11):
He'd rather go work a non music job and then
come back and do that. And it's obviously working well
for him because he's playing in a band that's actually
quite successful and been around for a long time, but he.
Speaker 6 (12:22):
Still has to have a job.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, And so but that's where he finds his happy
place is in that balance. And I think, to me,
kind of what I take from what you're saying is
that there needs to be a little bit of help
guiding us to finding balance, because we can become so
overwhelmed by the pressure, so scared of trying hard enough
or taking some risks. So I really think your book's
(12:45):
going to have a great place to do it. What
would you say you would put the meaning of the
music centered life to be?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
So, I think living a music centered life is basically
where you were. Being a musician is at the core
of your sense of identity. Like this guy that you're
speaking about, it's clearly like he's a musician. That's who
he is. I don't know what else he does for
his day job, right, but it's that's the that's the
main component of it. And so it's trying to craft
(13:14):
a life where you can where that is, where that
can be the main thing that you're focused on. And
you know, it talks about status and hierarchy and relating
to other people and how they kind of like see you,
and it's basically I just want to create a permission
structure for people to be musicians and to identify as musicians.
(13:36):
And like you were saying, like he says that the
corporate gigs take too much out of them, Like, I
totally see feel like that's why I charge a high
rate because it's it's like about it's an energy exchange.
You know, what you need to be getting taking in
as much as you're giving out at least you want
to be you know, taking in a bit more hopefully. Right,
So if if you if you're playing in front of
(13:57):
an audience that's super excited about your music, it's going
to fill you up, you know, it's going to make
you feel really excited. And if you're not, then the
energy needs to come in the form of money, where
where kind of you're getting you know, literal energy to
put calories in your body.
Speaker 6 (14:14):
Yeah, I one hundred percent agree with that.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
And it's funny too because somebody else said, like in business,
there's a saying that says, if you don't give as
much energy at least as what you're charging, then your
business is going to fail. And I do think there's
like both ends of that ying and yang are true.
It's like maybe sometimes we are out of balance one
way or one way or the other and that's why
(14:36):
things aren't aren't quite working.
Speaker 6 (14:38):
Yeah, I feel.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Like sometimes for myself, the hardest part of that is
recognizing when it's time to say raise your rates, or
recognizing when it's time to say no, even though your
instinct is like, this is money, right, money, Yeah, So
how would you guide that as a balance?
Speaker 4 (14:57):
I think that if you're people are saying yes to
you all the time, Like if you put your rate
out and people are like, great, you're not charging enough.
You want to be charging an amount where you're not
getting all the gigs, because then you know, you know,
it is scary. And I think there's definitely like there's
a sense that a lot of musicians have of like,
who do I think I am like charging this rate
(15:18):
for something that's fun? Well, you know it's not that
fun if no one's listening to you. You know, there's a
lot of work involved in the corporate gig thing. And
I think that that what I love about the guy
who's not doing the corporate gigs is that he's making
that choice for himself and he's not like because there's
(15:39):
a lot of people in our society like when people say, hey, oh,
well what do you do and you say and I
say like, oh, I'm a musician, and they're like, oh,
so how do you make money? And I say well,
you know, I play gay play wedding and corporate events,
and then I also do this synk licensing thing. And
people really people really want you to be like consistent,
you know, like, oh, if you're a musician, then then
(16:00):
I want you to be doing all music. And so
this guy probably has to face like, yeah, I'm in
this band, I'm a musician, and Bene also like do
accounting or whatever. He doesn't s Yeah, he.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Is phenomenal when he puted, you know, like they're not
a single script.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
There's no hesitation in his mind.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
His confidence was oozing out of his performance, and I
thought to myself, it's like part of that might be
a part of this too. It's like he feels like
he's doing exactly what he wants to do, and that
helps him perform at his best totally. And I wonder
sometimes if people when they get burned out or when
they when you you know, when you've been at a
gig and you're like, oh, I should have charged more
for this, Like yeah, just realizing that it's four hours away,
(16:40):
I should have been charging more for this m M.
And part of that creeps into your performance, like why
did I say yes to four of these this week
and now you're like performing at half masked because you're
so full of that anxiety of what you're doing to
yours though.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Yeah, I know, the chat, the mental chatter in your head.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The last thing I wanted to say is just, first
of I mean, how great it is to talk to
you and to hear your story and just to kind
of get an understanding of the way you've created your
life and how it's just a shining example how someone
doesn't have to follow a roadmap as much as maybe
listen to the guides and just choose to do what
it feels right.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
This is kind of what I'm taking away from you.
But with your book, who is it that you're hoping
will find it?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
So? I feel like there's a couple group, there's there's
I have. There's three groups. The group number one is
seventeen to twenty five year olds who are trying to
figure out what am I going to do? You know
with my life? You know, and should I? Should I
go to music school? Should I go to college? Should
I not go to any of these? Should I? Just
so that's a group that I am interested in reaching,
just because I think it has a lot of good
(17:46):
information for people who are just starting out. Then there's
there's people who are already musicians who are you know,
they're gigging, they're trying to do the thing, And what
I hope that this book would give them is just
a sense of like solidarity and community and like you're
not out there alone, and like I see you trying
to do the thing, and I see that it's you know,
(18:07):
it's challenging, but and I honor the courage and the creativity.
And then the third group is people reassessing their lives,
maybe in early retirement, trying to figure out where what
can I do? Can I still be a musician? Is
there any path for me? And there is, you know,
and sink licensing and co writing in sync licensing especially
(18:28):
is one of those paths. And yeah, there's never it's
never too late to make music a central part of
your life. I think so.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
In that last one, I heard forty eight year olds
with their birthdays in October.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Yeah, with dogs that have two problems.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
To Yes, I'm writing there and missing lakes missings.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
Okay, it's a really good marketing tactic.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, this is great and I can't wait to get
my hands on a physical copy of the book too.
Are we going to be able to order an Amazon
anytime soon?
Speaker 4 (19:00):
So, like mid mid to late October is where I'm
aiming for, but I can't quite get that quite give
the exact day. I would love to give you the
exact date once I.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
Have it for Yeah, we'll post that.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Whatever, But yeah, October is the goal.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Would you mind if we had you back on in October?
Just maybe for like a ten minute talk about it
so we can sure?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
I mind? I would love that. I would love that.
Speaker 5 (19:24):
And then would you mind just reading one paragraph and
Irish accent?
Speaker 6 (19:27):
Please?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Could I? What if I you can credit in a
Canadian accent?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I did hear a little Canadian accent in there, don't
you know? And if you don't like your performance, we
don't have to share it. But it'd be fun just
to see what happens.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
So you seriously want me to do the night ros?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
I mean, it would really be fun just to put
it at the end after credits.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
And did I what if can I also read a
piece like in my normal voice?
Speaker 5 (19:50):
Let's do that first and then that way?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Yeah, okay, let's do that first. Okay, this is from
the very end, so and then part of it is
a quote that I didn't write anyway. Maybe you've read
this passage before, especially as it's been popularized recently by
Brene Brown. It's a quote from Theodore Roosevelt that bears repeating.
It is not the critic who counts, not the man
(20:13):
who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where
the doer of deeds could have done them better. The
credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood,
who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again,
because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But
who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows
great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a
(20:36):
worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end
the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst,
if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so
that his plays shall never be with those cold and
timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. Well known artists, writers,
and celebrities have a bias that says it's natural to
become famous and make a lot of money. Even if
(20:57):
they've had huge advantages in great life back, they often
conclude that they earned their success. Usually they believe themselves
wholeheartedly when they tell you that if you just had
their mindset or work ethic or whatever, you'd be successful too.
You rarely hear from the people who work super hard,
have a positive mindset, and are doing just okay. It's
easy to get lulled into the notion that if you're
(21:18):
not succeeding in music, you're messing up. Here's an excerpt
from a Wired article from twenty thirteen that's important to consider.
As of January fifteenth, twenty thirteen, the number of pages
in the category of living people on Wikipedia is six
hundred and four thousand. Then the global population is over
seven billion. This means that the fraction of living famous
(21:40):
people is zero point zero zero zero zero eight six
not one percent, zero point one percent, not zero point
zero one percent, but zero point zero zero eight six percent.
If you're not famous enough to have a Wikipedia page,
is it really because you don't have a positive enough
mindset or strong enough work ethic, or is it because
(22:00):
you're a normal person doing their best to be extraordinary
and probably doing a great job in a hypercapitalist world
that's warped by advertising and false expectations. You have the
right to be creative and to make your music, whether
or not you get to the place where you have
a Wikipedia page. You deserve the connection and beauty that
comes with creating, and you deserve food, shelter, community, care,
(22:22):
and love. But the universe doesn't owe you more money
or fame. You already have a lot of money compared
to most people in the world. It just may feel
like you don't because the people on TV, social media
and in ads look rich. There's huge inequality in the US,
and it often runs along racial lines because of historical
exploitation and oppression. It's extremely unfair. At the same time,
(22:42):
if you're reading this book, you're still most likely among
the wealthiest ten percent of people on the planet. There
are hundreds of millions of people who are just as
human as us, just as real as us, and who
have just as much right to live a happy and
creative life as us, who pray to their God or
the universe just like us, probably more than us, and
who are also extremely poor, meaning they're regularly at risk
of dying from poverty related issues such as illness, files
(23:04):
or malnutrition. Yes, Inequality and injustice in our own country hurts.
Feeling low in the status hierarchy hurts. Having a mental
health issue that stems in part from being disrespected in
that hierarchy hurts, And at least materially, most of us
in the first world are doing well relative to many
others in the world. It's a both and situation. What
if we thought this way instead? The universe doesn't owe me.
(23:27):
I owe the universe. I owe it for giving me life.
I owe it to the universe to do my best
to be happy and to be generous and kind to
people around me. Love generates more love. I owe the
world my love. What's the best way for me to
keep a roof over my head and put myself in
a position to generate love in the world. Everyone has
a different path. There are many different paths open to us.
(23:48):
If you grew up poorer then most people in your country,
you might feel a strong desire to prioritize money and
have the things you lacked as a kid. Maybe you
need to do that before you can feel secure enough
to be happy. Sometimes that means you make a chance
choice if that's available to you. To get an education
and a well paying job and do music on the side.
Or maybe your soul is telling you that you need
to immerse yourself in the world of music. You play
(24:09):
wedding gigs, drive for uber, teach lessons and write, record
and perform your music as much as possible. You learn
as much as you can about sync licensing. You form
a band, you book your own tours, you build a following.
Maybe it works out amazingly and you stay on that path,
or maybe you transition to some other mix of making
music and money. None of the options are wrong, despite
what others might project. There's no such thing as failure
(24:32):
if you do what makes you happy and helps you
give the world your best. The task is to pick
what's right for you at this moment, and you don't
have to get it right on the first go round.
You just have to keep going.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
That was a bit long, it was a bit perfect.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I'm so selfishly happy that I get to show up
every week and have an opportunity to hear something like that.
So even for our listeners, I'm happy for them too,
But right now, selfishly, that just made my month.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
Oh thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
We might just end it on that one, because that
was such a mic drob of a.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I'm going to need two sentences in an Irish accent.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
I almost got you out of it.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Yeah, all right, there's two more paragraphs before the end
of this piece. I'm gonna do that in Irish accent.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
All right.
Speaker 7 (25:21):
Spend more time doing what brings you joy. Play as
much music as you can, challenge yourself, improve your skills,
work on your craft, and do projects you find worthy.
You might end up living a pretty normal life. You
might end up famous, you might end up somewhere in between.
But as long as you work hard and are kind
to yourself and others, you'll get somewhere that you can
be proud of. Thanks for being brave, passionate and hard working,
(25:45):
and for blessing the world with your beautiful art. May
you live a long, happy, music centered life.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
I was born there. I do have a lot of relatives.
You know, it's.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Really excellent, It's fantastic.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
That was really but actually I do think you should
consider it.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the audio books, we'll do two versions.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Right, yeah, or like all of your quotes switched to
that you know and like to give them, like with
the weight yeah, totally.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
For spending time here with us and just sharing your
story with us. I know there's a lot of people
who are going to be really happy to hear what
you're saying and validate how they're feeling.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
So thank you so much for putting it out there
in the world.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Thank you guys so much for having me. I really
appreciate it. It's nice to meet you too.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
So what would you say is the intimidation factor of
the Sink world since you've been to all these conferences.
Speaker 6 (26:55):
That you have to know how to do everything? I don't.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I almost feel like that is the universal intimidation about
the music industry now in general, is that you're supposed
to know how to do everything. And parts of that
are true, but the other part is the gatekeeper end
of it, that if you don't know the right people,
your music has to be so exceptional that it gets
(27:20):
you through the door.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
Because there's so much.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Music and a lot of people are pretty good at recording,
so it's intimidating to be like, is my music anything special?
Speaker 6 (27:34):
In the Sink world?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I mean, you can have it be important to you, right,
be special special? Sounds like a degrading word, but to
be something that's meaningful. But yet in the sink world,
it's just one of a million, right, And so it's
really intimidating to try to push your music in there
because a lot of times you won't get that reaction
(27:56):
that you're hoping for from them.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
She seemed to break it down though, And the way
I relate to it is like booking venues. You could
say how many bands are trying to get a slot
and a venue any single night? And she said, treat
this like you can carve out a small, consistent daily action.
You're networking, you're pitching catalog building instead of you know,
(28:23):
banking on these big wins. And just with venues, when
you're planning a tour or looking to get into a
venue around your town, you're taking emails and you know
you're setting five or ten a day, five or ten
a day, five or ten a day. Do you find
that to be true too as far as how you
get to meet those gatekeepers.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I think consistency is king or queen here. Yeah, I
don't think there's any other way around it. Those people
that are relentlessly going to put the effort in will,
like she said, in her quote in the last episode,
they will get the results that they're happy with, because
there isn't any magic formula there.
Speaker 6 (29:01):
It is just do it until it works.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
And if you want it bad enough and you feel
motivated enough to keep going, you will eventually get some
success out of this stuff.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
And then the.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Other part of that too, which comes back to our
community aspect of how important it is to network, how
important it is to lean on each other. But it's
also really important and very powerful to be an active
co writer. And it's because anybody that's listening that's a songwriter,
you probably already know this, Like, you can't really grow
(29:35):
as a songwriter in an isolated atmosphere. There's so much
that you get from each other when you write songs together.
But there's the other end of that too, which is
you learn other styles. Right, you learn not only other styles,
but you also learn and get access to all the
other writer's connections. All of the things that they can
(29:57):
offer is now combined with all the things you have
to offer. So there's there's the aspect of the creative
part and there's the aspect of the business part that
both benefits so hugely from connecting and co writing.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Do you remember interviewing Daphnie Will season one when she
said she'd have like anywhere from like seven to nine
the songwriting you know a pointments almost yeah, writing session.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Week, Yeah, yeah, And that is something we emphasize at
the University of Colorado, Denver that I constantly bring up
because because it's uncomfortable at first, but especially you haven't
done it before, and it's the same reason that you're
intimidated by the sink world. It's like, is what I
have to offer going to be of any use to
any other co writers?
Speaker 6 (30:40):
Because you also should.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Be writing with people that you really like their music, right.
You don't want to go pick the person that writes
music that you don't like because that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
So them, sure them as well. I'm sure you know
you're hanging out. You have to get along.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes, you have to get along. It's such an intimate experience. Yeah,
So there's that part of it too, and we all
work differently. Co writing is its whole thing, you know,
but it really is a critical part and it is
critical in the songwriting for songwriting, for sync. It's also
critical for songwriting for pitching to other artists. Anybody that
(31:15):
wants to really be a songwriter first has to have
co writing as part of their process.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Talk about her book, It was interesting to hear why
she started it, and I felt like it was parallel
and in sync with why we started this podcast.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It's funny because it's like, don't you don't want it
to be something that when we talk about allowing people
to be themselves, sometimes it gets wrapped up in this
idea that that means that if you feel like being lazy,
that you can be lazy, or that if you don't
feel like doing it, don't do it right. What is
that generation that everyone says does that. I'm not going
(31:52):
to call anybody out, but I do think that sometimes
when we say you should be you, you should be
allowed to be who you are, that that's taken as
if you think you're lazy, then you got it, go
be lazy.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
But that's not at all.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
And it also comes back to this idea that sometimes
the way that the market wants you to find your place,
the universe wants you to find your place isn't a
straight line. It isn't going to be in a way
that you can predict, and the only way to get
there is by following the areas in which you feel
like you should be existing.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
So living a music centered life a guide to balance
fulfillment and paying the bills. She said she wrote this
book because she wish it already existed, one that balances
artistry and real world livelihood, and it bridges that gap
between the nuts and bolts business manuals and abstract creative guides.
(32:48):
And from her reading just that, you know that last
blurb of her book was already something inspiring that I
can't wait to get my hands on.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, I mean, it's really does serve a small niche
that that isn't covered by anybody else that I felt
like I wanted.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
As soon as she started reading.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It, I was like, oh, I want this, you know,
and that that's a really good tign and like that
you feel that way the moment she starts offering the
content and not just talking about mean, there's a lot
of books right of the manuals, if you will, about
the manuals about how to get the gig, how to
(33:30):
how to charge more, how how to hustle, how to connect,
how to network and get the signed gig, you know
that signed with a label, and how all of that
is these manuals. There's so many of and sometimes they're
all repeating themselves, but when we're never really saying like,
maybe maybe you shouldn't be putting so much emphasis on
(33:54):
either you do that or you don't, right.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
Or you make money or you don't.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
So so many times, you know you're in Europe, someone
asks you what you do. You're not saying what you
do for a living. You're saying, I'm a musician. And
that's what she's saying here that there's so many times
when someone asks what you do. I mean, the first
thing is to say what you do to make an income?
But a music centered life means defining yourself as a
musician regardless of income.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Sort yeah, because they can coexist.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Yeah, just like here you did it your friend or
it was your friend. Right.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Who says he from the motet that he does not
want another job, you know, doing music in a way
that he doesn't enjoy doing music. He'd rather, you know,
be an arborist or work a nine to five somewhere
else so he can have all that creative juice ready
to go for when it's time to play music the
(34:49):
way he wants to express himself.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And people don't own that like he owned it. He
owned it in a way that said this is by
a choice, this is by design, because he could easily
get a lot of a their gigs that he doesn't
want to take because he doesn't want to lower the
juices where they're too low to be used when he
needs them, you know. And I do think there's so
(35:11):
much truth to that. I did experience that slump after
I win full time for a little bit. I was like,
I'm tired, Like I don't want to go down and write.
Speaker 6 (35:20):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
That's that's the exchange of the energy that we were discussing,
and you have to be aware of that. And sometimes
burnout itself is your inner monologue or your inner spirit
telling you you're overdue in one area. Right, you got
to cut back so that we can balance this back out.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
And Elaine was saying, if that gig drains you will
compensate that energy then monetarily, you know, like if you
don't want to really do the gig, then you're going
to have to pay me the next amount in order
for me to make it worth my time and my energy. Yeah,
and then it frees you up for taking gigs it
might not paid that much.
Speaker 5 (36:01):
Let's say that you and I are doing in September that.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I mean, it's nice to get paid to get there
and get back, so at least we're even. But you
and I are not really talking about how much it
gets paid because we get a chance to be in
the same town, at the same place for an evening
and hang out and share some tunes.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
Yeah, you have to know what you're doing it for.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, And that I liked how she said that that
you have to decide whether or not you're gonna, you know,
take it for the money and if if you're if
everyone's saying yes quickly, then you're probably charging too little
for your value.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And then she also discussed that the guilt of having
a non music job that she says in this book
she wants to reframe that. So this is balance, it's
not failure.
Speaker 6 (36:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, there's so much there and and it's also really important. Again,
it's another conversation that needs to be supported amongst the community.
There is a sense of guilt for a lot of
people that if there aren't full time then they're not
a real musician.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
There is that sense again, especially for that younger group
there's nobody that has ever made it straight out of
I don't know, high school or college without doing some
other jobs and eventually making a choice to go full
time because of some reason. But then there's plenty of
people that just tried it and don't like it. Right,
(37:24):
there's plenty of people that don't like being a full
time musician, not just because it drains their energy or
they have to play shows they don't want to play,
but because they don't like that lifestyle or that lifestyle
only fits you for a certain time period of your
life and you grow out of it and you're like,
I'm kind of done with that, you know, And again
the guilt might be there, but again, this music centered
life can be.
Speaker 6 (37:43):
It's just about the art, right, It's just about the music.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's not about being something that is kind of defined
outside of you.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Brad was talking to a drummer friend of ours and
he said, you know, what would you do if you
had the opportunity to go for a month on the road.
It's like, I don't think i'd take it. I have
two kids at home. They have they're doing so well,
and everything they do, I want to be around to
see it. I want to share this part of my
life with them and their life. So you know, it's
(38:15):
not it's not for everybody. Yeah, that who's that aspect
of it? You know, who's a say you can't play
drums And like Brian McCrae, who doesn't have kids, but
still even now we'll record for musicians.
Speaker 5 (38:31):
All over the world in his studio and never have
to go on the road.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Talking about who this book was for, I mean, certainly
she knows what she's targeting it for. You know, when
she talked about the young musicians, she talked about working
musicians who need encouragement and solidarity. She talked about older
adults who are early retirees that want to now pick
it up. Right, there's all these all these different groups
of people that maybe never gave themselves that chance to
(38:59):
listen to that inner voice and do it the way
that they want to do. So it's about recentering your
music back into that music centered life, And to me,
it's that's all of us, right, because we're all going
to be losing that energy from time to time in
this journey. Right now, I think for me, I'm recentering
to the music, and maybe this conversation is kind of
(39:24):
what started that because this was a couple of weeks
ago and I realized that I'm I'm sort of off
that center and that part of it I miss, you know.
So it's really useful to have these conversations because it's
so good for us to make sure we're doing what
it is that we really want to be doing.
Speaker 6 (39:42):
With all this.
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Well, she makes it, you know, very clear. There's no
one path. Success doesn't require a Wikipedia page.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
If you're creating, sharing, and staying kind to yourself, you're
already succeeding. Whether you're saying that with an English or
an Irish accent.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
True.
Speaker 5 (40:01):
Well, Chris, this is our last episode, Chris.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You excited to take some time off and go hit
the road. Get to drive out to the Midwest in September.
I mean, we have one last action step for the season.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Season five.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
We won't be posting any new content, full episode content
until the February or spring of twenty twenty.
Speaker 6 (40:26):
Six, which is crazy.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
But we will be posting a lot of new content
in the short form and with little snippets of other
interviews and stuff like that. So we're gonna do that
a lot more that we've ever done before. This has
been a really wonderful season, and we are so grateful
for everyone's support and engagement and the continued growth of
whatever it is that we're doing here. I'm definitely gonna
(40:50):
take some of this time in the off season to
recenter myself and take Elaine's advice here on this and
make sure that I'm doing all of this for the
right reasons. But it has done nothing but double down
on my interest in making a bigger effort to help
everyone in this music industry get what they want out
of doing art that they make.
Speaker 6 (41:11):
So thank you Dave for.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Putting up with me all season and helping us improve
all these technical sides of things as well.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Thanks for not being annoyed that I cut you off
all the time and my horrible jokes.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So I appreciate it and the opportunity to do this,
because I tell you it is something I really look
forward to every week.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Although we'll be playing show together if anyone's in the
Chicago Land area in the first week of September, which
should be about when this comes out.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah, we like to hackle each other while the other
one plays their tunes, just to see if how their
heckle chops are up you know it's right.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Well, so for you guys, a little easier action step
than heckling. For you guys, our last action step of
the season is this finding where you fit is a
frequent topic here I'm Music tip Jar. This is that
opportunity to continue making a clear definition of where it
is that you can bring high value. If you can
(42:13):
define that, everything changes all to then it's taking is
to target getting to that point. But today we do
it from an angle where it's more about where you
naturally fit and less about any monetary analysis. The action
step is this list the things that you are best
at and enjoy the most. Where are the places in
(42:35):
the industry that those skills will be a strong fit.
This is a fun thing to sit and think about.
If you can find a partner and do this together,
it actually can really help unlock some ideas. And remember
that community is the whole point of making something out
of nothing in this industry. We know that your time
is valuable. We appreciate you spending this time and the
(42:56):
season here with us at Musicians tip Jar and being
a part of this community. It is our hope that
you feel that sense of community here and that you'll
help spread the word to make us all stronger. If
you'd like to get a hold of us or Elaine Ryan,
what's the best way to do that.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Check out musicians tipjar dot com for tools, resources and
discounts built specifically to help keep you up on the
finance side of your music business. Reach out to us
anytime at musicians tipjar at gmail dot com.
Speaker 5 (43:22):
We'd love to hear your story.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
If this episode resonates with you, share it with the friend,
leave a review, or hit that like button if you're
watching on YouTube. That helps us grow the community and
support more musicians like you. To learn more about Elaine
Ryan and listen to some of her tunes on Instagram,
you could find her at Elaine Ryan Music. Her website
is Elainryan dot ca, and you can find more about
(43:45):
her sinc Music for a Change at sync Music for
a Change dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
As always, thank you for joining us, and remember there
is already enough for everyone, You just need to know
how to get it. Until next time on behalf of
Dave Tampon and myself Chris Webb, Stay happy, healthy and wealthy.
As it's been said many times, but bears repeating, success
is not the key to happiness.
Speaker 6 (44:11):
Happiness is the key to success.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
This is Musicians tip Chat Somebody, Somebody.
Speaker 7 (44:26):
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or
professional advice.
Speaker 5 (44:31):
Please consult an appropriate to tax, legal, business, or financial
professional for individualized advice.
Speaker 7 (44:37):
Individual results are not guaranteed, and all discussed strategies have
the potential for profitis loss.
Speaker 5 (44:43):
The hosts are operating on behalf of Musicians tip jar
LLLC exclusively
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