Addiction & Spiritual Recovery Without God | Marya Hornbacher #addiction #spirituality

Joining me is Marya Hornbacher, author of WAITING: A NONBELIEVER’S HIGHER POWER. The book is considered a powerful, almost radical exploration of what spirituality can mean to the recovering person who does not believe in a Higher Power.

Marya is an award-winning journalist and bestselling author; and is the recipient of a host of awards for her books, journalism, essays, and poetry. Marya published her first book, Wasted: A Memoir of Anorexia and Bulimia in 1998, when she was twenty-three. It has been published in sixteen languages, is taught in universities all over the world, and has, according to the thousands of letters Marya has received over the years, changed lives. http://www.maryahornbacher.com/ PLEASE HELP

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
You're listening to Mystic Lounge with AlanB. Smith rebroadcast on the ONEX Network
Thursdays at eleven pm Pacific, Fridaysat two a m. Eastern. However

(00:32):
you are and whenever you are,Welcome, good souls to Mystic Lounge is
Alan B. Smith. Thank youso much for joining us Today night,
I have a very special guest,Maria Hornbacker. She's the author of Waiting
a non Believer's Higher Power. So, as many of you know, I've
discussed addiction on this channel and podcastbefore, and tonight we're actually really gonna

(00:52):
get into it and so much more. Is this goes deeper than just a
singular addiction of some kind. It'sbroader philosophy. It's about a spiritual recovery
that may not necessarily mean that youneed a higher power or a God or
a divine spirit for so whether youare a believer or a nonbeliever in divine

(01:15):
spirit, I think you'll still reallyappreciate the tenants and the ground that we're
going to cover tonight with Maria.If you like this podcast, please subscribe,
like comment down below and click thenotification belt on YouTube and of course
on the podcast. Wherever you listento it, Please review and rate,
really appreciate that This show is rebroadcaston the ONEX Network every Thursday, eleven

(01:41):
pm Specific time, two am Easternon Fridays. Maria Hornbacher is the author
of Waiting, a Nonbeliever's Higher Power. The book is considered a powerful,
almost radical exploration of what spirituality canmean to the recovering person who does not
believe in odd Maria is an awardwinning journalist and best selling author, and

(02:05):
is the recipient of a host ofawards for her books, journalisms, essays,
and poetry. Maria published her firstbook, Wasted, a Memoir of
Anorexia and Bulimia, in nineteen ninetyeight, when she was just twenty three.
It has been published in sixteen languages, is taught in universities all over
the world, and has, accordingto the thousands of letters Maria has received

(02:28):
over the years, changed lies.Her website is Mario Hornbacher dot Come Maria,
Welcome to Mystic Lounge. How areyou good? Thanks? How are
you good? I'm so excited.I'm so happy to have you on.
I think you have a really greatmessage, and let's just start right from
the beginning of your recovery journey.And I think the beginning of a recovery

(02:52):
journey is actually the part that comesbefore it, the part that leads us,
you know, to that dive,you know, when we hit the
Dark Knight of the Soul. Soum, yeah, tell us your your
version. I love that point.I mean, I think a lot about
stories, and I'm actually doing aretreat next weekend on the stories we tell

(03:13):
ourselves. And so if we thinkabout the recovery journey as not I got
recovered, and you know, Igot recovered. Now it's good, Like
I'm good, it's fine, it'sit's kind of a crash landing of a
story ending. And so the truthof the recovery journey for me is that
it does start way before I realizeI need to recover. It starts long
before I have any means to recover. It starts as I'm heading down kind

(03:34):
of into the ditch of you know, whether it's a Dark Knight or of
the Soul or where I just derailed. It's hard to describe for me.
But long, long before that time, I think I think there's real truth
to the fact that human beings cravesomething more um, And I think that
some of us find things to substitutefor meaning very early, and I found,

(03:55):
UM, I found my early methodologies, the first of which I was
eating disorders. That was the firstform that I would say that that my
craving manifested in was anorexia and bolimia. And I dealt with those until I
was, you know, in myin my late teens early twenties. And
in that period of time, Iwas also I think, finding the back

(04:17):
channels that would later become what Ibelieve has been a much what was a
much more enduring problem for me,which was alcohol and drugs. UM.
And so very early I knew thatI did things too much, too hard,
too fast, too long, toomany. UM. I knew that
really young. And so in thein the ancient times, which were the

(04:38):
seventies and eighties when I was growingup, they called that having an addictive
personality. UM. And I thinkthere's very little substance to the idea of
an addictive personality. We know moreabout personality now, we know more about
the idea of addiction quote unquote.UM. But I think what I did
know was that I liked to testlimits, mine in particular, U.
But everybody else is too, andalso the worlds. You know what I

(05:00):
really I really felt like I wantedto know how far things could be pushed.
I don't necessarily that think that isa strength or a weakness. I
think it's a characteristic that can goa lot of directions. And so early
on it was how little can Ilive on? You know, how like
can I be? I can Ilive in ascetic life? You know,

(05:20):
we'll come back to the sort ofthe sort of philosophical history or behind that.
But like, really early on,my ideas weren't about I need to
get skinny. My ideas were abouthow little can I need as a human
being? You know, So earlyon I was pushing a limit in that
direction, and that didn't go wellfor me. I went very badly,
and so recovery for me began whenI needed to recover from ANARECTI in Bolimia.

(05:45):
But of course, instead of goinginto what we would now consider maybe
wellness or a health journey, whatI did was go down the side road,
which was alcohol and drugs, becauseI'm wow, yeah ahead. Is
it fair to say then that yourjourney to Anaaccy and beliema what started with
a good intention, is that whatyou're what you're saying, or I'd say
it's a neutral fact about ways ofbeing in the world, and I think

(06:06):
some people, I think some peoplehave what I think is a readier access
to health. I had a prettyready access, I think, just in
the way that I made to findingfinding edges and going and dangling one foot
off them, you know, andseeing what happens if I dangle my foot
this far, you know what Imean, Do I fall? Well,

(06:26):
yes, I fall. Let's trya different ledge, you know. And
let's just I mean, one wayof looking at that is I'm maybe not
very bright, you know, soyou know, maybe I'm just a little
skill on the upside, and Ilearn hard. But I also think there
is a neutral fact about some people'sway of being in the world that leads
them to push limits. One wouldwant to train that earlier than I did

(06:47):
into better outlets, and I didn'tdo it early very well at all.
Yeah, right, So I meanthat's even a trait that I would argue
that you might still have today,considering you kind of have a nomadic lifestyle.
I live a completely noumadic lifestyle,and I think now the fact that
I do live auneumatical lifestyle. Ihave no given home. I live in

(07:08):
a trailer. I travel all overthe country in it, and that I've
actually was talking to a friend ofmine about this recently. I said,
I feel like that ascetic impulse ofhow little can I need has found again,
not necessarily a good outlet, butone that is healthy for me.
I have to think a lot abouteconomy of scale. I've only got so
much room, how much do Ineed? Really? Do I need this

(07:30):
thing? Or is it just awant? You know what I mean?
So like that impulse to test stillexists within me, and now I feel
that it has found a way ofmanifesting that is not only harming no one
including me, it is allowing meto learn really interesting things about like how
much can I do myself? Howself sufficient can I be? Can I
live off the grid? Like?Those are questions I have that are neutral

(07:51):
but also perhaps even ecologically questions Iwould like to know the answers too.
You know, there's reason now,not just how far can I push it?
What happens when I crash? Now? Right? So the sort of
editing of things down in your life? Did that is that helping you edit
people? In your life, andand like the decluttering of your own mind

(08:13):
or the chicken out of the eggquestion, I think that's a very good
question. I've I've I've heard alot of people talk since the pandemic about
the need to edit people from theirlife, and I I have not,
I don't think intentionally done that,but I have found it possible at this
stage in my life to say noand to draw limits when I'm like,
this isn't serving either of us orany of us perhaps, right, Like,

(08:37):
if I am not contributing substantially tosomeone's wellness, I don't necessarily think
I'm a good person for their life, right and and vice versa. There
are people in my life who Iwant to I want to stay connected to
in some way, but perhaps itisn't healing for me or them, you
know what I mean. And thoseare hard calls, those are hard decisions,
and that editing process is not notcomfortable. But I think ultimately it

(08:58):
is why it is right. Sothat's I mean, that's something that you
know, we deal with in ourlife. It's something we make a conscious
effort to do. Do you thinkit's generational too? Do you think that
there's the younger generations are more aptto doing that than Yeah, previous I
think that's possible. I think,you know, I you know, there's

(09:18):
a lot of narratives that go alongin the boomers, who are the generation
above me, and in Gen X, which is mine, my generation,
where people are like family before allthings and friendships never die. And I've
not found that to be true ornecessarily a good idea. You know,
there are people in my life todaywho are newer to my life who are
adding so much joy, so muchwisdom, so much goodness, and old

(09:41):
friends who I've been like. Youknow, as we get older, we
become in some ways more ourselves forgood and ill. Right, there are
things about me that I'm trying tolean away from because I risk becoming too
much of something as I get older. There are also traits in my life
that I'm like, I need tolean into this. This is a trade
I've always have that I've not reallycultivated, and now now it's time because

(10:01):
there's room, there's less clutter.I think that's probably true. Yeah,
that's interesting. So if you cango back again a little bit, when
did you decide, Okay, Ineed to start making some changes in my
life. When did you Because Iagree with you that along the way,
like na twelve step program, thefirst step is understanding that you have a

(10:26):
problem. Yeah right, I thinkthough intuitively most of us recognize something's wrong,
right, And it's a state ofdenial, Yeah yeah, until until
you can't deny it from yourself anymore. But it's but it's kind of always,
It's always there. It's a livingUm. I remember for me when

(10:46):
it hit the hardest, I couldn'teven cry. I couldn't yet I was
I was dead, just dead,and I was really really scary. Actually
that was a scary, one ofthe scariest moments of my life. Um,
did you have that kind of moment? Or what was the imput which
time? Right? Like what Imean, like the question of when did
I decide to make a change?Between three pm today and now a couple

(11:07):
different times, you know what Imean? So like that decision to make
a change is always available to me, right, Like I can always say
this isn't this isn't the path todayor even this afternoon, right Like,
at any juncture, I can sayI'm going back to point A where I
started at eight A. I've beentrying this again, Like I can always
do that. But the time,the first time, I think when I
when I started recovery from the eatingdisorders, I don't know that I would

(11:30):
say I had the insight to saythis isn't working. I need to change.
I had to change. I hadsupport and and and in a lot
of forms, um you know,compulsory change was was brought into my life.
And I think that's great. Ithink sometimes that's that's helpful. With
drugs and alcohol, I was older, not a lot older. I got
I got sober really young, andso I was old enough to go My

(11:56):
peers and people I know are livingtheir lives in a way that is not
going to kill them. What dothey know that I don't like? This
is clearly not gonna go well forme, right Like, if I keep
going down this track, it justends badly. And I've already crashed so
many times, Like what am ICan I start again? And the truth
of it is you can start againat any time. And I feel like
those early changes, right like theearly changes of explicit recovery from addictive behavior,

(12:20):
right from substance use and from behavioraladdictions, those changes were almost easier
in some ways than changes I've mademore recently, because they were concrete.
I put the plug in the jugring I stopped drinking because that's what I
had to do, right, SoI stopped drinking. Later changes where you
go, I don't believe in thiswork anymore, or I don't believe in

(12:41):
this partnership anymore. Like when thosechanges have to happen, there's a morphousness,
there's an ethical question. It's notexternal. I can't put the plug
in the jug of a bad relationship, right like, you know, I
can just say I need to makedifferent choices at this point, right like,
So those changes, in some ways, I not the foundation for how
to make radical change. By makingearly changes with concrete I'm no longer doing

(13:07):
this, or I'm going to startdoing this. That amorphous change that comes
later Those decisions become possible when you'vemade enough changes internally to know that you
can become literally a new person overand over. Yeah, did you did
you experience that? Each time youtried it was more difficult, like when
you know people relapse and that sortof thing, like it seems to get

(13:30):
more difficult, right like to Yeah, and it's almost that there's almost a
layer of shame because like you've alreadyrecognized to have this problem and then you
keep doing it, right Yeah,I think that's sort of like that there
is a layer of shame. It'sI think people who who struggle to get
and stay sober. I feel likethat provides us a segue, and I

(13:52):
feel like that's an important one,that sobriety looks different for different people.
Right Like, I don't have thesobriety. I have had a relatively smooth
experience with coming off substances because I'vehad support. I've had people supporting me.
I've had the ability to say,you know, I like the way
you're doing that, but it's notgoing to work for me because you're an

(14:13):
elderly white man, right like,So like that's cool, Like it's working
for you. Your assumptions though,for example, like you have to have
God or you're gonna die, thathas not turned out to be true unless
there's God and God is doing allthis work for me, and I just
don't know, which is entirely plausible. However, I think that what happens
is pride gets in front of us, right like, I don't. I

(14:35):
think also, if I believe mysobriety has to look like yours. I
am absolutely setting us both up right. Well, yeah, so I think
that's problematic, And that's part ofthe controversy right with with some of the
twelve step programs, because because somepeople within those programs will say it has
to be this way because it worksfor me, it worked for this many
people, this is the way.But in your book you you say,

(14:58):
no, obviously not. It doesn'thave it that way, because just look
around the twelve step rooms. Thereare different people. There are religious,
there's agnostic, there's atheists, um. But yet yet God the use of
the word God is um is writthroughout yes, um, you know,
like alcoholics anonymous, you know,narcotics anonymous and all these things. So

(15:20):
how does one reconcile that if that'sif that's the sort of core saving grace
spiritually speaking? Right, how canyou spiritually recover without without that? You
know? I think that the ideathat it will be reconciled maybe an expectation
that can't be met, right,Like, we can't necessarily realize that we're
going to We can't realize the expectationthat me and every other person in that

(15:45):
room we're not all going to comeaway with the same belief, and the
expectation that any one of us willtoe a line is immediately flying in the
face of recovery at the at theoutset, right, Like, if if
I have to go in and towa line, we have completely ruined it
already. Right. I am notthere to tow a line. I am
there to get healthy in some way. I'm there to make changes in my

(16:07):
life, not yours. I'm alsonot there to tell you how to change
your life, right, and so, at a certain point, and I
think because I came into the roomsa long time ago and it was a
different culture at that time, therewere meetings that I went to early on
in recovery where I'm like, Ican't stay. Every one of these bastards
is telling me how to live mylife. And this is already a problem.
But at some point, you know, I talked to a friend of

(16:30):
mine years ago who just had thisgreat line. He's like, you know,
sometimes the best revenge is to justnot die. And I'm like,
hey, good point. All Ihave to do is go in there and
just not die and not be drunkeach Tuesday. Like I can maybe manage
this, right, well, oh, you also want to be happy too,
yes, but I also there again, I will I will go after
that because the idea that a baselineis happiness is an expectation. I can't

(16:53):
make my life meet if my baselineexpectation is I have to be happy if
oh yeah, right, you knowwhat I mean. But like, at
a baseline, am I happy?No? But I'm very peaceful, right,
So at a baseline I am peacefuland I a lot of the time.
Then that allows me to be happy, and it allows me to not

(17:14):
be upset when I'm not happy.It just allows me to be wearing,
you know what I mean. So, like, if I can wake up
and in the day, in thecourse of the day be more or less
peaceful kind of no matter what happens. But that's an exceptional day. So
it's like saying, you're not goingto get angry at yourself if you're not
so happy that day. Yes,Like it's okay that I'm not so happy

(17:34):
that today, right, right,right, But it's also I'm not going
to pathologize it, right, Like, so I'm not going to be like,
oh, what's wrong with me?It's well, we're having a global
crisis, right, like one afterthe other after the other. Why am
I stressed? Why am I anxious? Well, so what I said was
about the global crisis, Like,so the expectation that we're not going to
be anxious, We're not going tobe stressed, we're not going to be
fearful, that is unrealistic, Likewe're gonna be anxious and stressed and fearful.

(17:56):
What I can hope for, andthis is up to me to kind
of create a setting where I cando this. What I can hope for
is that within this chaos, thatis the material world that we're in right
now, within this chaos, Ican find a fairly consistent baseline of peace.
Right Like, that doesn't mean I'mover here in my zen monk outfit
being peaceful. Nobody who knows mewould describe me probably as a characteristically peaceful

(18:19):
person. But every day I wakeup and have peace, right like every
single day. And that's partly becauseI'm in recovery. It's partly because my
expectations they aren't low, but they'reflexible, right Like, if I need
a lower than I can like,if I need to be like today is
not going to be a happy day, I don't need to lean into misery.
But I can get comfortable with thefact that I'm not going to have

(18:42):
a happy day, right, LikeI can get comfortable with that. Going
back to your question though, thatI think is important, how do we
reconcile the expectation of a god consciousnessin the rooms of twelve step recovery and
the fact that not everybody in therebelieves it. Not only does not everybody
in there believe it, millions andmillions of people are in recovery and not
in twelve steps, you know whatI mean, Like, they're nowhere near

(19:04):
those rooms, but they're somehow managingto be in recovery in their way,
and I feel like those people don'tget much playtime, you know what I
mean playtime as in exposure or whatI mean is I go to the rooms
and everybody's like, this is howit's done. This works for all of
us. I'm like, okay,So ten percent of people who come to
twelve step meetings will say stober Like, statistically, that's very, very crummy,

(19:29):
But that's also partly because lots ofpeople who are in recovery aren't in
twelve step programs. Interesting, Solike, okay, so what's what the
idea of defining recovery as I getsober today, I am sober till I'm
dead. That's very rare. That'svery very rare. Is it nice for
me? Yes? Do I hopeit for people? Yes? Because it

(19:52):
facilitates getting piece back right if thatisn't the way your journey looks though,
as very ninety percent of people's journeywon't look like that, And if they
are automatically upset with themselves or feelingshame or feeling like they did it wrong
because their journey doesn't look like that, I think maybe what we need to
do is change the definition of thejourney, right, Like, the journey
may look a little different for otherpeople, and it may still be a

(20:14):
healing path. Yeah, And it'sinteresting, you know, the idea of
peace, like you say, likeyou wake up feeling peaceful other people and
not perceive you later in the daythat's peaceful person. But you know,
things can be relative based on yourexperience. I mean to wake up in
the morning and not be ashamed,right right, it's like huge, Like
yeah, that's huge, and somepeople don't understand that because they just haven't

(20:37):
been through that. Thankfully, forthem, right right, right right.
But but that alone is a bigpart of my gratitude. Yeah, absolutely
mine too, Like just to wakeup and know that I'm pretty much okay,
you know what I mean. I'mnot ill, I'm not I'm not
lost, I'm not like where's mycar? Like, you know what I
mean. I'm just it's time toget out of bed and go running.
Like it's just that it's a newday, Like let's do this, let's

(21:00):
do this today as best we can, right like, and that that sort
of it does not have to besunshine and rainbows all the time, but
it can be consistent and it canbe very deeply peaceful. And I think
if you told me when I gotsober that it was going to be consistently
peaceful, I'd be like, shutup, that sounds horrible. Well,
I don't know. It turns outthat, like you can get a lot
of work done with a baseline ofpeace of mind. Well, there's addictions

(21:25):
to the peaks and valleys too.That's that's a toxic condiction right there.
So when you start leveling out andyou're not getting these the highs and lows,
you're not getting that the hit ofthe high, and that doesn't necessarily
mean of the drug itself, Likeyou can have just being like a psychological
high, like the pink cloud is. You know sometimes here, Yeah,

(21:45):
everything's great with you, and thenyou crash, right and then build yourself
back up again. It feels sogreat and then you crash, and then
that becomes an addiction in itself.Yeah. Cycle. I think that people
I see more emotional junkies than anythingin the rooms, you know what I
mean. Like, I see peoplevery very addicted, and I know that's
a word we're not entirely comfortable withthese days, but I see people very
dependent upon an emotional intensity that isn'tnecessarily healing or well necessarily and it's not

(22:15):
sustainable. If nothing else, it'snot sustainable, right, Like the careening
from high to low, whether anaddiction or not, it is it's a
rush, like there's goal oriented chasingthere. And I feel like, you
know, if I'm out chasing arush, I'm definitely not sitting on my
meditation cushion. I'm never chasing arush when I'm on my yogamat. That
is not what I am doing.I am learning to slow myself down and

(22:37):
be still and just be where Iam right. That's harder for me than
getting high. I can get highreal quick, you know what I mean?
So like I can also get lowreal quick. So what if what
I learned how to do was bestill. That's a harder and bigger challenge
for me. That has proven morelife giving than any rush emotional or drug

(22:57):
induced. Ever, So we're usingthe word spirituality. I mean, do
you differentiate the difference between psychology,a psychological wellness, and spirituality. I
don't know that I would distinguish them. I think if they are distinct,
I think there is a great dealof overlap. I don't think. I

(23:18):
mean, what we've come to thinkof as psychology is a fairly pop psychology,
sort of unnuanced idea of what psychologyis. We've got a little patter,
We've got a little glossary. We'recalling everybody a narcissist. We're calling
everybody, you know what I mean, like it's gotten, it's lacking nuance
in a really big so by thesame token, we got very blah,
we got very vague about spirituality,I would say about ten years ago.

(23:40):
And so you know, the lingoswitches all the time. As culture switches
to me, are they distinct?That might not be the question so much
as like what wellness means to me. I can't distinguish between what we call
it like mental health, physical health, spiritual health. They're not in separate
rooms, right If I go,like, let's chase Technietzsche, you know,

(24:00):
in thus folks our foostra, hesays body, I am entirely in
nothing else. I am prepared tobelieve that. I'm prepared to believe that
the entirety of my existence as abeing begins an end with my bodily aliveness,
and when I die, it's gone. I'm prepared to believe that I'm
also prepared to believe I'm completely wrong. I'm fine with that either way.
Like, how the hell would Iknow? Well, you know, and

(24:22):
there is a difference between like bodyand a body that is alive and functioning.
It does require energy to move abody. There's electrical impulses. We
have brain ways that are like seepingout through our skull. You know.
That's really it's a really interesting dynamicallywalking around. Yeah, yeah, yeah
exactly. Yeah. So you know, actually, well now what they're talking

(24:44):
about that do you do you thinkthat there's any evidence that you've seen that
there is a soul or anything ofthe sort if I knew, so,
I'll go back to the Hebrew forbreath ruach means breath and spirit, same
word. Like I am perfectly contentwith not knowing what the ancient Hebraic interpretation

(25:04):
of that was. You slapped ababy when it took two breaths, it
was a being like it had itsspirit, it was in its body.
It's good to go right However,today, like once my breath is out
of me, am I myself anymore? I am not has myself gone to
another atmosphere? Unclear? Myself forsure isn't in these five feet right like
it's gone? So like what isthat to me? I am like for

(25:27):
my purposes And this is sort ofwhat I get into a little bit in
waiting. Is I need this verydumb down in a way, like I
I love to think about higher orderstuff. But at the end of the
day, I am not so grandioseas to believe that I understand. I
do not understand. What I knowis that right now I'm living, I'm
trying not to harm anyone while I'mliving. I'm trying to be as ethical

(25:51):
a living thing. And to me, that living is the same breath I
take when I'm on the meditation cushion. It's the same breath I take one
i'm running too hard. It's thesame breath that I'm ruining with my cigarettes.
It's the same breath that keeps mea self, and that will no
longer be a self when I'm gone, That's all I know. And because
I keep myself to a fairly limitedconcept of what self is, I don't

(26:15):
get super attached to what is myspirit? I don't know, like,
is my side of the street clean? Not really? Today I've been kind
of a shit, you know whatabout tomorrow? I might be better.
I think, you know what Imean. Yeah, But you know,
that's one of those expressions they've alwaysreally liked. I try to keep your
own side of the street clean,you know. It's it's kind of like,
you know, judged less you bejudged. It's in that vein.

(26:38):
But just like I like the poetryof that. Yeah, and you mentioned
ethics, So how important is inrecovery? You often hear it? How
important is vigorous honesty with myself?Vital? But I also think there is

(27:00):
a there is a blind spot ora lot of blind spots that we all
have, right, So I counton other people to be vigorously honestly honest
with me as well. So tome, vigorous honesty in my recovery is
huge, like my vigorous honesty withmyself with the people that I am trying
to be helpful to, Like,I'm not gonna bullshit somebody who is struggling

(27:22):
and coming in and saying I don'twant to do this right. I'm not
gonna be like you'll love it.I'm gonna say I don't blame you.
It's awful, at least for ayear. Like I'm not the guy who's
going to be like, boom,It'll be fine, right, Like,
So, vigorous honesty may not justbe I'm not lying to my friends,
I'm not lying to my family,like that's important, but I feel like
that's important as a human being ina world right in recovery, it is

(27:47):
very important. I think that Iam vigorously honest with people about my experience
in recovery, in part because Iwalked into this program and felt like everybody
was full of shit. I justneeded one woman to be like, yeah,
it's horrible. There's men everywhere.They're predatory. You'll get sober anyway,
Just keep your head down and rollright. Like I needed someone to
say that to me. It didn't. Somehow I ducked and kept going,

(28:11):
and someone said to me, actually, this was on New Years of this
year. I showed up at somemeeting. There was only one woman there.
She is fragile, Like you canfeel her fragility in the room.
Every guy in there who wants tobe helpful, which I believe him to
do, like I believe these guyswant to be helpful. They also all
want to talk to her because she'syoung, she's pretty whatever like, and

(28:32):
I'm like, here is my number. You don't have to talk to me,
you don't ever have to use it, but you have it. The
next night she called me and shesaid, I just I just want someone
not to bullshit me. Can youtell me if it is possible to make
it? And I'm like, yeah, you can make it. We never
spoke again, and all she saidwas thank you for not being Pollyanna full

(28:55):
of shit? Who cares if she'ssober forever. That night, she was
at a party and about to drink. Maybe she got home safe. Maybe
not, And it's again not becauseof me, but because someone is willing
to be vigorously honest. Actually,I think you alluded to something earlier,
which I agree with so much.Not every sober journey is a single linear

(29:26):
recovery. Yeah, it's not indefiniteand doesn't go on for their entire lives.
Oftentimes people have to struggle and relapseand all that kind of stuff.
But like, okay, so evenif ten percent have lifelong recovery, a
large part of those other people whohave stretches of recovery of not destroying their

(29:48):
life. Maybe they give themselves enoughtime to get another job, get back
on their feet, go to school. But whatever it is, try to
work on relationships. The collective totalum positive, I think, is huge.
Yes, you don't see it becauseit's just organic happening. But if

(30:10):
you could snap your finger and justsuddenly all of those people who aren't you
know, lifelong, you know,successful um sober people, if you snapped
your finger and none of them hadthose intermittent periods of sobriety, the world
would look different, we would Itwas very like and you know the carnage
and damage that that you know,we addicts can cause you certainly are minimizing

(30:36):
that. Yes, I would.I would argue, Yeah, I agree
with you, and I feel likethere's you don't lose that wisdom, you
know what I mean, Like sayyou're sober for ten years, you go
back out, you're out for howeverlong you're out. You didn't lose ten
years of growth and recovery. Youmade a different choice, you know what
I mean. Like it's not thatnothing bad happened, but it doesn't mean

(30:56):
you are struck back at I've neverdone any healing right like out front of
nine years ago. I asked her, you know, we were talking about
mental health recovery more specifically, andI said, where do you think healing
begins? And she laughed and shesaid, I think we've been healing all
along. And that goes to yourpoint about when does the journey begin?
Where does the journey begin? Itbegins way back in illness, right like

(31:18):
it begins in disorder. It beginsin the destructive period, like you are
healing at that time. You arealso healing in relapse, right like you
are healing. If you go backout, you are healing. If you
are doing a harm reduction program youcan be adding to exactly as you said,
Alan, the overall good and safety. Even like every day I didn't
drive drunk was a day I wasn'tdriving drunk, and that's more good in

(31:44):
the world, right, Like that, I can't pretend like even if I
went back out, I can't pretendthose days weren't valuable because those were days
I wasn't drunk on the road,right, So there's value to that.
There's value to that, and thatvalue is not lost. It is not
a zero sum game. It's nota pie, you know what I mean?
Like my sobriety isn't valued in numbersthat somebody else cheers for at the

(32:06):
end of a year, right,It's valued in I got up today and
was available to somebody who needed somebodyto chat with jet just to chat Like
that I wasn't drunk when they calledme was a good thing. It just
right, Like, there's value inthat, very very very valuable. How
often do you practice gratitude and howimportant is that for you? What a

(32:29):
great idea? I love the ideathat I'm not that there's a numeric gratitude
practice. I want it, LikeI think about how grateful no I mean
it like I like rituals, andand though I am not theistically religious or
spiritual, I like ritual And Ithink that the human mind and spirit whatever
we're calling that, responds to ritual. There's a reason we live in routines

(32:50):
and patterns, right, There's areason that religious rituals are valuable, are
powerful, There's a reason we gothrough rights of passage. Gratitude. Rituals
are really really fundamentally deeply embedded inmy life. And so first thing in
the morning, I do a listof like, all right, you're fine
because of these things, right,Like, even if you're in a grump,
even if I woke up without mycharacteristic baseline, I'm all right,

(33:12):
you know what I mean, I'mlike, you better get back to that,
right, because I'm fine by byand large. And so every morning,
for sure, starts with all right, get out of your little litany
of things you're cross about and whatyou've got to go have an argument with
yourself about and what you're mad about, like drop it, good dog it,
you know, write your little listof things you're grateful for. So
at least every morning and every night, I really have found those some of

(33:35):
those practices about like the tenth stepinventories. I find them useful to this
day. I really do. Ireally do. Yeah. I'll take moments
here and there randomly am I tryingto do it in the morning. I'm
pretty pretty consistent. It can belike walking to the car on the way
to work and like, oh,shoot, I forgot to and just look
up at the sky, you know, and say thanks for whatever. And
I know, thank for my wifeor my parents, for my job,

(33:58):
you know, this and that,um, and then and then go about
my day. But I do tryto check in with myself, yeah,
and and express that and to remindmyself, because I think that that's one
of the biggest problems with with withaddiction is little by little, by little
by little, do you start toforget, you know, why, why
it's so good, right right,so good that you're sober or that you're

(34:21):
um, you know, since it'sa world that's that's different from me.
For so, in the eating disorderworld, like you know, arexia and
Belieme Meal, let's say, um, like I would say I'm sober,
what would someone in that world say? I don't know. I've been recovered
from eating disorders for decades, andso I was not. I mean like
I was in recovery from eating disordersby the time there was a OL,

(34:45):
so like it's been a long time, and um, and so I was
never aware of the kind of theworld of internet facilitated eating disorders, although
you know, I mean like,I'm faintly aware of that. But I
am aware of eating disorders anonymous,which exists in very much the same it's
a twelve step you know, recoveryprogram. I've spoken to a couple of
those meetings, but I have notparticipated as a member, and so I

(35:07):
don't know. I think people talkabout it being in recovery, you know,
which I love as as a transitiveverb, right, like it's an
ongoing it's not in end states.I also I do not. I do
not experience eating disorder symptoms or temptations, and haven't for so long that I
will speak of recovered in the pastdense of eating disorder simply because it's been

(35:28):
so long. I think there isalso value to the argument, or at
least the conversation, that the identificationof self with addict or self with behavior
or self with substance has risks thatwe can occasionally forget about right like people
are Like if I forget I'm anaddict, I'll be drunk. I mostly

(35:49):
don't identify myself day to day asan addict. Most days, I'm just
a human being, right like wanderingabout im that, you know what I
mean? And so I think there'sthere's an important art in recovery of letting
other identity features come to the fourand be more primary, like I am
primarily honestly, Like the thing Ido most often is act like a decent
friend. Like that's my primary rolein the world. Is I'm a decent

(36:13):
friend. I'm also an okay writer, I'm a good teacher. I'm often
available to people when they're in ain a pickle, you know what I
mean. So, like those thingsare more key to my identity now by
a long shot than even alcohol addiction, you know what I mean. Though
I'm aware that I ain't going nearit because I just don't need to check,
you know what I mean. Areyou a coffee drinker? I am
a coffee drinker, but I stopit two in the afternoon. I have

(36:37):
two coffee in the morning. Ihave a cup of coffee at two and
we're done. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you keep you
stay up late at night? Isthat way? I will if I drink
coffee after two turns out? Butno, I go. I have like
such a boring little lele old ladylife and I love it, Like I
go to bed it you know,I turn off my phone at nine and
I'm in bed by ten reading andlike, and I sleep by eleven and

(36:58):
I'm up with six and I'm onthe yoga mat like I mean, it's
very consistent. But those rituals allowme every day to be like I'd never
have survived. Yeah if I hadn'thad recovery, you know what I mean,
Like, never would you know?You know how people have that kind
of religious connection to a higher power? Yeah, um, that that sort
of vibratorial kind of buzzing energy whenwhen they go to church and they sing

(37:22):
hymns and gospels and what have youye or group prayer? Yep. How
can an atheist reach find that statethat kind of such a great question.
So I think, you know,I have always found that to be somewhat
risky because I feel it when Igo to church and I do not believe

(37:43):
in God. When I go tochurch, I'm suddenly like maybe I'm wrong,
Maybe I want to sing Kumbaya?Does anybody want to pray with me?
Like I find that I find thatto be an intellectual in me.
This is not speaking aspersions of anyoneelse's way of belief. Okay. I
find that to be so similar togoing to confirmation camp at fourteen that I'm
like, there's gotta be hormones goingon here, Like there's gotta be hormones

(38:07):
and groupthink, and I start gettinglike nervous. I'm like, what am
I getting sucked into? I feelthat at times at meetings, Yeah,
I'm like I am starting to cheerfor things that I don't think are that
big a deal, Like why amI cheering? Like so if I don't,
you know, there's a little bitof the grout show marks. I
don't want to be part of anyclub that would have me sort of going

(38:27):
on here. And that's just straightego. I know that. But and
I also find that sort of vibrationcentered nous, right Like I find it
in grounding for me that comes inexercise. I hike a ton, it
comes when I run, it comeswith literally my feet hitting the dust,
Like I want to be on thisplanet. If I'm on it, I

(38:47):
really want to be on it.So to me, that's where I get
that. Yeah, yeah, Imean the exercise for me is important,
and I think it has a lotto do with the fact that, you
know, I'm a recovering addict,right because the having that because I can
feel it. The sort of baselineendorphin level that I get from that is

(39:08):
I would say, like one ofthe biggest pillars, Like I kid you
not like from like my like psychologicalwell being. Oh I agree, yeah,
and we act like that's a surprise. I mean it's like you know,
because not everybody needs that, right, like their brains are just body
is Like mental wellness does hinge partlyon how well your bodies, like how

(39:31):
how how cheerful are you when you'rewe've got the flu. Like the body
and the mind and the mental healthand the spiritual health. Again, they
aren't in separate rooms, right,Like not everybody thrives on exercise the way
maybe you r eye might, Butthe body needs caring and respect, right
like when we feed it good food, it's happier. Our mind is happier

(39:52):
when it's getting some movement, likewhen we dance it is impossible. I
don't care if you are in awheelchair. You moving and dancing in a
sense that allows your body to feellike it is inhabited, improves your mental
health. It just does. There'sa kind of exuberance to it. Yes,
No, what a great word.So it's totally true. There's an
exuberance and sometimes just dancing that'll doit. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone

(40:15):
can find their own their own theirown, their own you know, funkadelic
vibe and whether whether it's yeah,yeah, I'm so so you're you know
who Funkadelic is, right, Yeah, I like that. Um So when
you said religious camp, right,Uh, what what was that? Well?
I mean I spent a couple ofyears as a as a young person,

(40:37):
a very young person. Um,my family was got involved in a
church, like a very run ofthe mill Episcopalian you know, you know,
they're just like Catholics, except they'remore liberal in one way or another.
Um, and they went to achurch and they were very invested in
it. I guess I would saymy family was very invested in it.
I really found it to be anemotional discharge, right like I found Confirmation

(41:02):
class to be very Cathartic, whichis why I began to suspect that it
wasn't church that I was enjoying somuch as the possibility of going somewhere to
just sob and hang out. Itsounds like we had I wassed Catholic.
Sounds like we had very parallel experiences. Did you do the washing of the

(41:23):
feat? Yes? And I waslike and like me, like whatever spoking
for folks is working for them likehere, but like but really, man,
I was like, why am Ilike like serial boyfriends at confirmation class
where we're talking to each other aboutlike how we're gonna like love Jesus together.
I'm like, that is not whatwe're doing. Like, that's not

(41:44):
what's happening here, Like we're doingsomething else. There's something else there.
And I think you're right. Thehormonal thing that's happening at that age,
um and you know anybody like whowhen you're just being vulnerable around other people,
Yeah, there's an inherent bonding,right, So you combine teenage hormones
with that, and then so soas a as a developing mind, you

(42:07):
you relate that experience with the religionthat had introduced you. Yeah, but
that's that's very much a kind ofa group therapy session. What's wrong with
you? Like, the reason thereason the twelve step programs work is because
they are a group therapy. Thatis what works about them. Yes,
well, in a room with otherpeople supporting you in a goal. It

(42:28):
works for all kinds of things,right, like confirmation fine, like you
know, gym class fine. Whateverit is, Like that sense of belonging
is vital to healing. You know, when you've got a broken bit,
whatever it is, whether it's yourbroken heart or your broken mind, your
broken wrist, having people with youto support you in the healing process.
I don't even like being around peoplethat often, but I like being connected

(42:51):
to people, right, Like Ivalue, deeply value my connections. I'll
feel that sort of thrill at agood reading. I'll feel it the Village
van Guard, when I hear somebodydo an amazing solo. I will feel
it on the dance floor at anightclub like that group sort of we are
here, we are alive together.That's where I'm going to go back to
ruach. Is it spirit or isit breadth? Is it heartbeat or is

(43:13):
it pulse? Right? Like?What's going on that? Like is this
the bass thumping or is it thefact that something in the bass response to
me and I respond to as amammal that likes being alive. That's interesting.
It remind me. You remind meof towards the end of the quote
unquote end of the pandemic, umwhen I had first gotten together with a

(43:35):
group of people from from work,people that I wouldn't hang out with outside
of work normally. Um. Iremember coming home being like, oh my
god, that felt so good.Yeah, like normally normally rewind you know,
a couple of years before that I'vebeen like and then I was like,
yeah, that's kind of nice.It was nice to be round other
human beings for a little bit andthat close. And yeah, there's something

(44:00):
very I mean, like the recovery, Like the twelve step programs have boomed
in the pandemic, and since peoplebegan well, there you are with your
addiction, right, Like you andyour addiction and maybe your spouse or your
partner and your kids in the house, and your addiction is taking up ninety
eight percent of the air, right, So, like people did start recognizing
I think that they were struggling withwhether it was substances or behaviors or processes,

(44:25):
and that they needed some support outsideof the room that they were in
with their demons, right, likeall of us the externalization of Like I
have to I cannot get perspective onthis, right, I need someone else
to look at it from over hereand be like why are you holding your
hand right in front of your face? I'll be, oh, yeah,

(44:45):
Like can we step back from thisand get a look at it? People
help us get to scale, Likethinking about not only the problem, whether
it is addiction or other, thinkingabout the self to scale is pretty vital
too to me, like recognizing scale, Yeah, that self, Like how
important is it whatever my latest crisisis, Like how important is it on

(45:06):
a globe scale? I guarantee youdon't even know what happened last week,
right, so it can't be thatimportant, right, right? Except I
had a dream last night that Iwas losing my jacket in the city on
the subway somewhere and like my keysin my wallet, And that stuck with
me for the entire day, Likethat was like right where it kind of

(45:27):
haunted me, and I was likego away, right, like let the
dream go, Like sometimes our dreamsthat follow me around like that, but
I feel like, what you know, Speaking of dreams years ago, I
had my dad and I when Iwas a little kid, used to get
up in the morning and report toeach other on our dreams. We talked
about going to the movies, likewe'd be like over over Bractice for like,
having our eggs and toast and talkingabout our dreams the night before.
And one of the dreams that Ihad early in um in my early teens

(45:50):
was about having been driving around thesemountain roads a like as fast as I
could go, and my friend Nate'sblue pickup I was driving. I was
whipping around corners. I was likeit, and then I come to barricade
and I hit the brakes and Istorm out of the truck and I slammed
the door and there's my dad onthe side of the road with his arms
cross going We were going much toofast. And I'm like, but I've

(46:12):
never forgotten that dream, because nottoo long after that I began recovering because
I was going much too fast.Is my dad a wise person yes?
Is he a lot of other things? Yes? But that dream, the
figure of someone who knew better justcame in and was like, hey,
slow it down, like cool it, give me fine, just slow down,
you're going too fast. Yeah,I absolutely think dreams are very important.

(46:32):
We need to take the time toyou know, sit on them,
ruminate on them, and let thesymbolism kind of work through you and you
can kind of understand like, oh, I think this is what it's trying
to tell me. Yeah, Andit's usually it's either it's either reparative or
it's prescient. That's kind of howI see it. Yeah, I agree.
I agree. There's a lot ofstuff I can let go in dreams.

(46:54):
Sometimes a dream will just let meknow something is done, like I
can let it go now. Andsometimes I'm like, Okay, call your
friend in Florida because suddenly you've thoughtof her after you know, not having
talked to her in months or whateverit is. And so like the antenna
that we have speaking of like what'sgoing on in the paranormal or the or
the metaphysical world, I'm very veryI have sometimes too much antenna acuity,

(47:19):
right, Like, sometimes I knowmore about people's energies than I really want
to know, which can become veryannoying for them, frankly so, but
also for me. You know,what I mean. Sometimes I need to
get better at being less attuned towhat's going on in the world. And
I think given the world that we'rein right now, being self protective around

(47:40):
energy and around wellness is vital,not just gratitude, but being aware that
Like, yes, I'm grateful formy recovery. Sometimes in my recovery,
I get tapped, right, likeI get tapped in service. I get
tapped in being available to people.Right, some days I just want to
sit at the bathtub and cry bymy damn self, and I need to
be able to do that, rightLike sometimes I need to go Yes,

(48:01):
I've been sober a long time.Yes, I know you're hurting. Yes
I'm really sorry, but right nowI'm sitting in the bathtub crying. Can
you call me in two hours?Like you know what I mean. So
recovery has edges too where we needto make changes, doesn't matter how long
we've been here, right, Likeyou need to sometimes make changes as well.
Yeah, I think that's the thingis there's this idea of once I

(48:22):
get over this hump, or onceI get to this point, then I'm
good and I'll just you know,coast through life content and then in the
hard reality kicks in and sometimes it'sit creeps up on you and you're like,
you know, why am I feelingso like, you know, gray
out and the breasted for some reason, And like sometimes it could really be

(48:42):
seemingly no you know, tangible reasonat all. Yea, you know,
it's just something kind of like asubconscious program like in the back of the
brain that starts booting up again.Yeah, like that that's how That's how
it feels like me and I'm like, ah, here you are. I
know what you're doing. I knowwhat you're doing. Yeah, go back
your box, you know what Imean? Like absolutely, I think that's
one of the most important parts ofrecovery actually, is learning to recognize that

(49:07):
because you know, with with myrelapses, I didn't I didn't recognize it
when it was happened when it washappening, but when and then all of
a sudden, it was just thisboom, like I would just feel this
rush. It was like a crash. Yeah. Um. And now like
I had the tools and I havethe mental awareness. Um. And there
may be a couple of people inmy life who go, hey, seeing

(49:30):
something right now, those go thosepeople go at the top of my list.
I'm gratitude, like, you know, having people say to me like
I am concerned about you and I'mlike, what are you talking about?
Well, that just means I'm checkedout and they're tuned in like those people.
Yeah yeah, and I love thosepeople, especially one person in particular.

(49:50):
Yes, yeah, so so yeah, So how do you, um,
how do you manage that? Likewhen you start getting those those old
inclinations or impulses or psychological moods thatyou don't want, when you start to
recognize them, what do you doto kind of mitigate that and get yourself
back on track? You know,honestly for me, because I have found

(50:15):
you know, the first thing Ido is reach out to the people that
I trust and just like alert themand be like, you know, I
have I have a group of veryvery amazing I mean just amazing people that
I'm close to and with whom I'min very very frequent communication, and I'm
like, Okay, heads up.And it doesn't mean I alert them like
sos, I'm failing here. Itjust means that, like I reach out
and I connect. It's like it'slike when you have a partner. Every

(50:37):
now and then you'll just pat themon the way by, right, Like
I don't have a partner. Idon't want a partner, but I do
want to reach out to my friendKaren and be like hi and have her
go hi. I'm like, allright, we're good, and I can
kind of proceed like it can beas small as that it can sometimes be,
Hey, I'm really struggling here,Like, can somebody just like get
on the phone of me? Yeah, Well, people, even though I

(50:57):
spend most of my time physically aloneand the vast majority of my time in
solitude, and I enjoy that thoseconnections are all the more vital for people
who like solitude, right, likethey really are, and so like that's
it. But when I have likeanother mood, like I don't deal anymore
with you know, impulses to beself destructive, that doesn't come up for
me simply because I've put enough temporaldistance between me and the last thing,

(51:22):
right, Like, there's just beenenough time that it doesn't occur to me.
Like I can sit in a barand it will occur to me two
days later that it didn't occur tome that I might want to drink because
it has nothing to do with me. The alcohol there has nothing to do
with me, Like it's no relationshipwith alcohol, that just none. Right,
So that that is a built inbuffer time gives me a built in

(51:43):
buffer between that type of risk.But other risks exist, like I risk
being a jerk all the time,and so like when I find myself heading
down that road, like any ofmy behavior change that go right to I
am now being a jerk. Ido try and reach out to people,
but I also I discharge a lotthat energy physically. I walk, I
hike, I run, I do. I mean like I'll go beat up

(52:04):
a heavy bag. I mean anythingthat makes me like physically literally like when
you're getting a massage and they're likeshaking weird energy off. I do that
at the gym every day, likeevery day, because I don't need it
in my body, Like my body'smy temple to be happy in it.
I don't want to add with me, you know. Yeah, Yeah,
I think that's interesting and maybe that'swhy that's helpful for me personally. Is

(52:27):
I think there is a kind ofa grounding experience by by doing that,
particularly if if it's in the morning. Yeah, it's I kind of just
like like getting off any excess energy, Yeah, neurotic energy and that sort
of thing. Yeah. Yeah,So earlier you mentioned sensing antenna's and I'm
wondering, do you would you canput yourself in the mpath category. I

(52:52):
think probably there is there's enough truthto the sort of the of what I
have read, and I'm not,by any means an expert, what I
have read about empaths is there's enoughtruth to it that I think I probably
can't pretend I'm nowhere near it,like right like every there about nine double
negatives in that sense. But likeI definitely have an awareness of people's emotional

(53:15):
state that I can't explain, Likethey won't have said anything to me necessarily,
and I will just pick up ontheir energy and be like he's in
a really good spot right now.That makes me happy, right Like.
But I can also, you know, wake up in the middle of the
night in nicold sweat and be like, where's where's my older brother? Like
is he okay? And I don'ttalk to him on the phone ever,
so I have to like make surethat things are cool. Like, So

(53:36):
there's a there's a sense of umantenna that feels a little bit extra to
tell you the truth. But inbetween, like in a room, like
when I'm I'm aware, I canbe in a room and be like something's
really wrong, like something's really goingon where nobody even maybe explicitly saying anything.
So do I pick up on energymore than I would like to?
Probably? That's actually probably why Ispend as much time alone as I do,

(53:59):
because like there's only so much energiesyou can really walk around with.
Yeah, I think a lot ofpeople who who recognize themselves to be an
EmPATH identify as that or otherwise thatthere is a kind of an overload when
they're around too many people, especiallyif it's like just like toxic energy.
It's just because I mean, youknow, I have a thing. It's
probably something from childhood. I don'tknow whereas like I'll start kind of slightly

(54:22):
um picking up on other people's likeenergy and personality, not traits necessarily,
but you know, the behavior likemicro micro behaviors and things like that.
I think it because because I becauseI am empathetic, you know, and
so I'm always trying to see thingsfrom the other person's perspective, right,
um, and you know, havinga little bit of background and acting,

(54:44):
I think there's just kind of likeI'll start picking stuff up and I'm like,
oh my god, like get it, get it all. I don't
think this one right exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's a
little bit odd I think about energies. I was describing this to a friend
of mine who's very much involved inthe non duality movement of a school of
thoughts sort of thing. I wasdescribing to him in an email, and
like, I came to the cityand the energies are the textures are really

(55:07):
funny, Like the textures of theenergy in the city are rough or or
like cloistering, I mean like andso the energy of the city feels really
physically tactle to me, like andthat um tells me that I've been alone
in the woods for a long timeand I got very comfortable out there,
like I did, and then Igave to the city. It was like

(55:27):
I had no shirt on, like, so I had to do a little
bit of energy work actually to tryand kind of like seal it off.
Yeah. It's interesting. Yet whenyou're especially when you're away from it for
a while. You mentioned the temporaldistance, you know, I would still
say that there are a lot ofpeople who I think that they actually relapsed
because of that, like because theybecause they think, oh, I've been

(55:47):
sober or whatever for so long,and then they just stopped doing these spiritual
work right and then something happens.You know. It's like, like I
said, it kind of creeps upon you if you're not doing the work
right right. And I think youknow the narrative that you'll hear in the
rooms as well, he stopped goingto meetings and then he got drunk.
I'm like, that's probably very true, but I don't know that that's the

(56:12):
causal mechanism always. I think thatis often a symptom of causal mechanisms that
have predated the sort of like maybehe got bored with his recovery. Maybe
he got bored with his life,right, Like, maybe he got frustrated
and the meetings really weren't addressing hisbasic needs crisis, which they don't,
right, they're not designed to.Maybe what he needed was therapy. Therapy
got really painful, the meetings weren'tserving his needs right then, and so

(56:35):
like there's a lot of pieces thatcan that can contribute to somebody relapsing after
a long time. They're they're reallythey're really are a lot of routes there,
right. That said, I don'tthink that there's any one path back.
I think that people really need tofigure out, like what I you
know, if somebody has relapsed,go to a meeting man, because that's

(56:55):
an hour where in nobody drinking inthat room. Like that's just one safe
room, right exactly, you knowwhat I mean. But it isn't safe
for everybody, and it isn't safein the same way for everybody. I
will tell you that, like andso, like those are there are demographic
issues that need to be addressed,cultural baggage that we're all carrying around that
is not being discussed in the twelvestep community, and it's got to be

(57:17):
discussed because people are leaving because ofit, and we are not making it
a safe place for everyone equally byany means. Well, like you said,
it was you know that the tenantsthe substrate of twelve step recovery programs
at all, all recovery programs thatcame after that ye started in nineteen thirty
nine, and you know and wasdeveloped in the forties. So we just

(57:42):
we know a lot more about humanpsychology, sociology, anthropology. U.
So yeah, some things are aredated and need to be upgraded, and
we looked at from a from adifferent perspective. It's not like a demonization,
No, not at all, notat all. It's just an adaptation
to increase I would say, awarenessor wisdom. Anyone who wants to find

(58:05):
out more about Maria. Her websiteis Maria Hornbucker dot com. We're talking
tonight about waiting in other books,Mary, you have a new book coming
out too soon, right now,anytime soon. No, it'll be It's
called One Last Bitch Notes Ongoing Soloat the End of the World, and
I'm in the process of writing it, and it's about it's about this journey
that I kind of just set outon last year of exactly as we talked

(58:25):
about at the top of the hour, like getting rid of as much as
I as I could of the stuffthat I was carrying around in the world,
both internal and external, and hoppinginto a trailer and driving around all
over the country, having conversations withpeople and asking them questions about what they
think. This country is okay ifyou can leave us with one thought,
anything, anything you want, doesn'thave to be related to tonight, but

(58:45):
would it be question your story?All right? Awesome, Thank you so
much, Maria, Thank you somuch for having me. It's been great.
Okay, and thank you everyone forjoining us tonight. I really appreciate
you. As always. If youappreciate this podcast, please support by Ray
on whatever platform that you listen tothe podcast, subscribe, like, and
click the notification bell here on YouTube. And we're going to take a little

(59:07):
bit of a hiatus from the podcastover the next month, but you definitely
want to keep your eye out fora really, really special guest coming at
the end of June. I can'tgive it away yet, but I promise
you're going to be really excited aboutthis person, especially if you're into UFOs.
All Right, this is Alan B. Smith for Mystic Lounge, rebroadcast

(59:30):
on the ONEX Network. Until nexttime, everyone, peace and love and
live in the Mystery.