Joining me is Nathaniel Gillis to discuss historical demons and the alien interpretation; as well as the power of the mind to make entities real, and to share stories of otherworldly encounters. Nathaniel Gillis is a demonologist, author and lecturer. After living in a haunted house, Nathaniel spent 20 years researching what it was he encountered. Nathaniel has sought to redefine the nature of haunting phenomena, ghosts and high strangeness. As one of the thought leaders in his field, Nathaniel’s hypothesis is not that aliens are demons but that a singular intelligence has worn both as masks in which to hide. In fact, he is often quoted for his concept of the phenomenon…. "The reason they are playing by different rules is because they are playing a different game.” https://www.instagram.com/thenathanielj.gillis/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
You're listening to Mystic Lounge with AlanB. Smith, rebroadcast on the ONEX
Network Thursdays at eleven pm Pacific Fridaysat two a m. Eastern. However
(00:33):
you are and whenever you are,welcome, good souls to Mystic Lounge.
I'm Alan B. Smith. You'rea grateful host. Joining me tonight is
Nathaniel Gillis, demonologist, he isan author, he's a lecturer. Uh
and he's a really really cool guy. So hanging in. He'll be here
with us in just a moment.As a friendly reminder, this podcast is
(00:55):
rebroadcast on the ONEX Network at elevenpm Eastern Standard time, Eastern daylight time
and eleven specific time Thursday nights.So yeah, this is gonna be a
really interesting one. Honestly, Idon't remember the last time we've talked about
demons specifically per se, So wereally do have a fantastic guest tonight joining
(01:19):
us. As a friendly reminder,if you could support this channel by liking,
subscribing, sharing your thoughts and commentingdown below, all that really helps
the channel and the podcast grow.And of course, if you listen to
this on iTunes, please rate andgive it a review there. On social
media, you can find a MysticLounge at Power Normal Underscore Now on Twitter
(01:40):
or x and at Power Normal Nowon Instagram. All right, so let's
bring on Nathaniel Gillis. He isa demonologist, author and lecturer. After
living in a haunted house, Nathanielspent twenty years researching what it was he
encountered. Nathaniel has sought to redefinethe name feature of haunting phenomena, ghosts
(02:01):
and high strangeness. As one ofthe thought leaders in his field, Nathaniel's
hypothesis is not that aliens are demons, but that a singular intelligence has worn
both as masks in which to hide. In fact, he is often quoted
for his concept of the phenomena quotethe reason they are playing by different rules
(02:21):
is because they are playing by adifferent game. Nathaniel, Welcome to Mystic
Lounge. Brother, how are you? Thank you for having me on.
It's always great to make new friendsand to meet new people, and of
course thank you for having me onto discuss my research. It's a real
pleasure. Absolutely. Well, let'sstart with that encounter and we we'll take
(02:43):
it from there. So, whatwas that encounter that you had the first
time, oh my encounter, myconfrontation with this phenomenon began at the young
age of eight years old. Ihad to do a new house and that
house was basically possessed by an elevenand being. And once I experienced that
haunting, it was very strange.I mean, being an eight year old
(03:07):
kid, the only thing I knewto do was to play basketball, play
video games. I had no frameof reference for anything remotely close to what
we're going to talk about tonight.But what I realized was that whatever entity
this was, it was almost likeit was projecting a fear upon me.
It was fabricating terror, and thenit would feed off of the trauma that
created on me. It was very, very weird. How do you know
(03:28):
about your imagination? What? Hey, what's fascinating. So one of the
very first phenomena that I encountered wasa full blown conversation going on above my
head at night, And so Iwould wake up at nighttime and I could
hear two things, That's the onlyway I know how to describe them,
talking back and forth to each other. A host of other things shadow figures
(03:50):
that were witnessed in the house.When I would go to bed at nighttime,
you could hear a weight displacing itselfon the wooden floors, just a
tremendous amount of minute the station.But I experienced it, and then it
wasn't until later on in the field, I mean now that I started realizing
that's called the DVP Direct voice phenomena. And your parapsychologists realized, I mean,
(04:13):
they had captured in an audio before, and they believe in Steve Marrionberry
fitz Erald will talk about that.Where forget EVPs, when you get DVP
direct voice phenomena, that's that's literallyit's always above your head and usually rather
and they converse with each other,and so it was saturated. It wasn't
my imagination. I wish it was. But the older I became, the
(04:34):
more I realized and others did aswell. This wasn't just something I had
just made up in my mind.It wasn't psychosis, that there was something
actually in that house that was eitherattempting to communicate or was just manifesting.
And I'm a level of haunting,very strange stuff. Were you raised Catholic?
(04:55):
No, No, it wasn't.No excuse meess, So No,
I was raised evangelical though, andI've since emancipated myself from a lot of
the strange at rules I grew upin. But it was strange, you
know, I mean going through thatand then going to a local church and
saying, you know, hello,mister Gith pastor, what do you do
(05:15):
about shadow people? Yeah? Right, But wouldn't they just immediately assume you're
talking about a demon in their intheir worldview? Right? Absolutely? Absolutely?
And so it was such a contradictionin a juxtaposition because when you go,
like you said, when you go, okay, this is what I'm
witnessing, uh, smoky apparitions,just just different manifestations, you know,
(05:42):
they would of course they would lumpthem all underneath the umbrella being horns and
hubs, And so I grew upkind of listening to that, experiencing the
phenomenon. And then later on mydad, my dad, my father took
up pastoral ship, and then hewas it's fascinating. Would fly over herew
scholars from Miseruel and so here Iam eating dinner with some of the most
(06:03):
famous and top of the field Religiouscholars in the world, and I'm picking
their brain. We're eating Chipotle,Allan and good old Chipotle, And I'm
like, hey, what do youthink about demons? You know, what
do you think about different manifestations anddifferent mythologies? And what I realized was
that not only has the evangelical worldhighlighted the phenomenon as all horns and hoofs,
(06:24):
but the phenomenon itself has allowed itselfto be viewed as that. How
do we distinguish how do we distinguishthe fiction from what you're convinced is the
reality? Because, like you said, the horns, right, So demons
come from you know, a longhistory of interpretation, and horns were often
(06:46):
than just the pagan gods, rightright, and so that sign of divinity
or deity. Yeah, So ifthe horns were just the sign of pagan
gods, were the pagan gods reallydemons or what is that? What's this
thought there? Well, one thingis very very obvious here when you get
into the literature. Our ancestors didencounter something that intelligence did manipulate them.
(07:13):
It did things to them. Itcreated the hybridization program in biblical antiquity of
Mesopotamian infects. You can get tothose down a little bit, but they
did encounter something. And one thingthat I've been able to look for and
hopefully nail it down, is thatthere are certain behavioral patterns that the phenomenon
manifest and has manifested throughout history.Now, what has happened to us culturally
(07:33):
is we've used what's called mytho poetryor mythology and poetry as one. And
so whereas we have technology and antiquity, they would just rock their kids asleep,
or they would tell stories about thecampfire and said, this is exactly
what your mother encountered, or thisis exactly what I encounter. And so
depending on if it was a negativeexperience or if it was a positive experience,
(07:55):
that's where they put the phenomenon.If it's a good message to the
angel. If it terrified me,well it must have been a demon.
And so it was in this timein history where they begin to personify evil,
personifications of evil, where like naturalevents would take place. Oh my
god, it's the demon of fever. You know, they's done a demon
of fever, right, But thatdoesn't mean they were not experiencing entities that
(08:20):
were haunting and doing things to themthat were not very pleasant. In a
way, I guess you could saydemons were assigned roles, not unlike saints
are right, like the saint ofthis or the saint of that. There
was like the demon of this,the demon of that correct. Correct.
And then sometimes you would have lemageto who you know, she would descend
down in the middle of the nightand she would you see highlights of Ufo
(08:43):
abduction and Nikubai Seccuby encounter where shewould stare into the eyes of the woman.
The woman would go to bed witha child inside the wood. Within
the next morning it's gone. Andso they would yeah, this is fascinating
stuff, but that's it's important too. But they would actually create second faces
out of iron and they would wearit around their necks as a religious amulant,
(09:05):
hoping that when they were with child, that when that entity would descend
down, it would scare it tothe wrong eyes, meaning the next morning,
the child that they were pregnant withwould still be with them. And
so the missing fetus syndrome, it'snot a new phenomenon, it's just being
document in a new light. Wehave that intublical antiquity. We had that
in Mesopotavia text, we had thatin the sixteenth century. And so what
(09:26):
I've basically done is approaches the phenomenonlike a serial killer that wears many aliases
and masks, yet in each newincarnation it just reincorporates its own agenda.
And we've seen that. I couldprove that tonight, but that's when I
realized, Okay, some of theseare the result of you know, feverish
(09:48):
fancies and sexual appetites, just thisweird psychological sociological makeup. At other times,
no, there's something very real occurring, because we've seen the same hegral
pattern throughout history and it's still occurringto this day. So to go back,
did you have an encounter what youconsider a shadow person or a demon?
(10:11):
I don't know what it was theshut of person that I witnessed.
I was playing a video game ofnight. All the lights are off and
watch this bright screen. I sawa movement on the corner of my right
eye. I just looked, andwhen you know, in your eyes suggested
the darkness there, I am.I see this thing looking at me through
the window, featureless, featureless,and I just remember, okay, focusing
(10:33):
on him, and all a sudden, when I did, he just turned
its head That's when I just lostit. I ran in my parents room
freaking out. That was that wasin the wintertime. The next morning I
went outside and there were footprints,like boot foot boot prints outside in front
of my window. Now the strangestthing is my window. See it was
about seven foot tall. So whateverit was, this gets again into how
science fails us. It was ashadow figure, but it was physically there,
(10:58):
which is very strong. So inbetween worlds in a sense. Yes,
the interdimensionality of this phenomenon. Cannotignore it when you do elections.
I say that they're present with perabsent from and we cannot discount the paradoxical
nature, right, I mean withuphology, you know, even with aliens
(11:18):
they were can walk through the walland then solidify to the touch. So
there is this kind of in betweenliminal space that I believe they exist in
that we are completely I mean,I'm not saying I am. I know
I am, but maybe our governmentknows. But wherever they are, I
do believe it's the end between.Are they are they evil? Inherently evil?
(11:39):
These things? Man, You're hittingme hard with the good questions already,
So I'll tell you what this is. Where my colleagues and I are
at there is a profound amount ofdeception occurring. Now if we look at
the capabilities of the phenomenon, it'salmost like we have the real thing,
(12:01):
and then we have some kind ofintelligence that mimics the real thing for its
own purposes. So in my research, in my case studies, mainly I've
been dealing with incubied and suckuby victimsand going to go into that a little
bit. What maybe anubias? Okay, so what an incubus is. It's
an entity that appears to women inthe images of a man. Usually it's
(12:24):
in the image of a lover,someone they've been with in the past,
or a deceased husband, or someonethey're even with today. And so primarily
that's what my about the last twoor three years of my research has been
central around is dealing with experiences ofthis phenomenon, getting through the trauma,
putting marriages back together again, andhelping them understand their experience. But to
(12:46):
answer your question more specifically, Ido believe that this is a singular intelligence
and that the way it deceives usis alarming. And you know, I've
done other shows before where the questionis okay, we know there, that's
not a question. You know.We know, like with ted Rice,
we know that wasn't his real grandpa, grandfather that tried to assault him as
(13:07):
a child. It was an entitythat had had used the cognitive interface of
someone that this individual knew in orderto garner some form. And I say
it's lust because it's not consent.But then in another way, it really
is trying to get them to goalong with the agenda that they want to
employ. So deception is at hand. The question is are they deceiving us
(13:33):
for our own good? That well, in that particular instance, I connect
that's too dramatic. I don't knowhow good that is. It's the same
argument that they have with the iliandabduction phenomena, right like is well,
yes, I would suggest to everybodythat the esoteric nature of this phenomenon cannot
(13:54):
be understated. These beings far longbefore they were poking their you know,
walking into rooms at night time,they were coming to tables of seances,
necromancers, spiritualists, esoteric rituals.And so when we realize that, then
we okay, it's not what youcall me, it's what I answer to.
That's when I started to kind oflook at this phenomenon, and I
(14:16):
say, okay, what would ane to have to do with esoteric rights
from a bramble in then age anda life of Levi And unless there is
some kind of connection between the twothat they either don't want us to know
of, and so they say,okay, yeah, focus on the skies
and the technology, not realizing there'ssomething deeply spiritual all this. You know,
(14:37):
it has to be or else,or else they're just responding to anything
and everything, which is not thecase. Are we working from a handicap?
Meaning absolutely? Meaning that the realthe old literature and the majority of
it Western literature on demonology comes fromessentially the Catholic Church. Uh yeah,
(15:01):
that's where the greatest either got thegrimoires and you know these other texts and
whatnot where they've been written about,and so there is this sort of interpretation
that they're these evil things. Butthen if you look at the Bible,
like the Book of Job, Luciferhas to get permission from God to I
(15:26):
forget what the trick job or oh, to give him some kind of like
something, Yeah, you can't togive him like some kind of like torture
of some sorry if I forget whatit was, like some skin thing or
whatever. But like so if ifLucifer needed permission from God to be able
to do these certain things, becausein God's will, it's like, well,
(15:48):
it's about tempting man and humans,right, like can this man or
woman resist? You know? Cancan they still speak my name when they're
suffering? So this sounds to melike if Satan is a tool then of
God, then wouldn't a demon thenbe a tool? Well, according to
(16:12):
that form of demonology. But again, the earliest text regarding these beings were
that they were basically ascended masters.And then and then in Hebrew consciousness they
started to reintegrate and reincorporate some ofthe Mesopotamian literature. And then you have
in limitations Moses saying you sacrifice togods that were no gods, Comma to
(16:36):
gods. Wait a minute, theyweren't gods, two gods who recently appeared.
What I would suggest is this Ilearned this early on in my research
because I had to absolutely Caleb,haha, my buddy, Yes, thank
you for tuning in, my friend. I told you we're gonna have some
people from my neck of the woodsman. Amazing. Yeah, so thanks
(16:57):
for doing what? Okay, Sohere's the deal. When you look at
the phenomenon, what it can doand when it can't, what it knows,
what it can produce in a life. A lot of these, and
I should say it like this diabolicaldogmatism, A lot of that, even
the dogmatists that I grew up listeningto. The phenomenon is the eclipsing near
(17:21):
microcosm. And here's why. Letme just throw out a case study to
you and for those who all right. So I was doing a lecture one
night on skin anomalies and scarifications duringpossessions and hauntings and how it correlates tremendously
with UFO of Dutch phenomenon, andan individual reached out to me and said,
listen, a lot of these scarificationsand religious ambulances. They sound a
(17:45):
lot like what my late father experiencedwhen he would go out of his body
and meet his guys. This iswhen my paradigm shifted and it was like,
okay, I had to re examineeverything I've been taught and even that
which I grew up wanting to believethese beings were this blew my mind.
(18:07):
I said, okay. So wegot on the phone and he's telling me
his story. He said, well, my father would go and meet his
guides. He would go out ofhis body and he would get prophecies,
words of knowledge, all kinds ofjust things regarding the armageddon and this theatology.
And he said, one night hisdad got back into his body.
He was doing a session and thenhe said he came walking down the stairs.
(18:30):
He was in coherent, he waspale, and he was just inconsolable,
and he had a massive heart attack. And he said when we took
him to the hospital, and theysaid that we were looking at his chest
and he said, it just beganto turn a red and from underneath his
skin subdermally, there were these threereligious ambults that came from underneath the skin
to the surface. This is thisis a real story. This is a
(18:56):
real story. This, Yes,I have photographs of it. Now here's
what's the most interesting. Okay,subdermal scarifications. They're not new. We
usually see them in malevolent hauntings withscratches. There's a burning sensation. Sometimes
it's on the skin, through theskin to the inside of it. A
lot of times it's subtermalin. Itmoves from underneath the skin to the surface.
(19:18):
Now, this particular experiencer said thatwhen he met his guides that he
realized that they were not his guidesat all, that they were entities that
had lined themselves up in a metallicroom. And when he started conversing with
them, out of body, hesaid, next thing he knows, he
slammed back into his body. Now, my main point here is important.
(19:41):
One was one was an Egyptian hieroglyphicthat arched its way over top. One
was the Jewish Star of David,and the other one was the Crawls.
What I realized was that even ouresotericism is limited because the way that these
beings employ amulets is completely alien towhat demonology would even consider. These are
(20:07):
antithetical religious traditions. You will nothave a Jewish rabbi employing the cross.
You won't. You will not havea priest employing the Jewish Star of Davia.
There are two different religious mythologies,sure, and you certainly won't have
either of them employing Egyptian hieroglyphics.So whatever we're dealing with, or whatever
(20:30):
they're employing against us, it's likeI said, it's eclipsing demonology. That's
when I said, Okay, yes, I do have texts, but as
far as I'm concerned, some ofthem have to do with their origin,
the origin of these beings. WhatI'm looking for, behavioral patterns, what
are they doing? What's the significanceof those three symbols. I'm not sure
(20:52):
yet. Honestly, I'm not sureyet. I still haven't been able to
translate the Egyptian hieroglyphic. The closestto and he's really the closest to this
case I've heard of was a casethat Steve Mehra had. But in addition
to that, there's a book behindme by Bramlin the Maid who was a
sage, he was a magician.This is where a lot of your life
(21:14):
is Levi's research come from. Andeven the Bastardd's cabalistic text that uh that
Alister Crowley took some of his rightsfrom. But anyways, like Bramlin the
Maide says this, he's like,you know, he goes, I've scoured
the world studying religious ambulance, andhe said, he's he said, it's
fascinating. He said, at theend of his life, he came across
(21:34):
a being or a no magician thatwas performing angel magic, and the way
he was doing that was taking hieroglyphics, the Jewish Star of David and then
the Cross and mixing them together insome kind of cocktail. It makes no
sense to us because we've compartmentalized it. Well. Also because if there if
(21:56):
it's angel magic, one would assumethat that existed before, or Christianity even
existed, right, right, orJudaism for that matter, correct, correct,
And this is another complexity that hasalmost driven me mad when you look
at even in Marriolotry, when youlook at, okay, the Church of
Satan and some of the dark sorceryrights and all that stuff and the incantations.
(22:19):
Marriolatry began with the worship of Marryand then as soon as that took
place, there were sorcerers who beganto mock Merriolotry and employ that in their
rituals. So there is something tothe human belief that plays a role in
this phenomenon. But I agree,so I don't know what it all means.
(22:44):
What it told me, though,more than anything, was okay,
they're not playing by our roles Thisreminds me a little bit of the idea
that the observer effect that reality accordingto seems physics quantum physics, that without
(23:04):
the consciousness of observing reality, itdoesn't coalesce, it doesn't exist right in
the way we perceive it. Andso what does that mean about time?
Right? So is it possible thatthese other things are able to perceive time
(23:26):
in a different way than we are, and that they that the reality is
somewhat dependent upon us any way,Yes, there is a symbiotic and embryonic
relationship that they have with us.This gets back to the nature of the
phenomenon and the way it's manipulated asthrough centuries. Let's get back to some
(23:47):
of the research I was doing aboutfive years ago. When you get into
these case studies, and I've hadmore than a few of them where let's
just say that a woman goes tobetter and she thinks it's her husband,
and they have a physical encounter,and then only afterwards she realizes that there
are certain facial features that this beingis demonstrating that does not belong to her
(24:11):
husband of thirty years. There isthis role playing aspect. I call it
a protocol of belief that the phenomenonwill strap us into, and the question
was bagged do you believe I amwho I appear to be? Right?
And it's falling right into your theoryhere because it's okay, I'm not just
observing it. I have a roleto play in this encounter. I had
(24:33):
a case in India where a womanwas approached seven different times by the phenomenon
and it was like it appeared asevery man she had ever been with,
and it was almost like working herlike a safe okay, do you believe
I am? And each time she'slike, okay, you know, no,
there's something off. I know thisis not who you're trying to appear
(24:55):
as. And so I think that'swhere we're at. But there is this
protocol will believed the phenomenon puts usin where unless you believe I am who
I appear to be, there's there'sa snag in the program. So it's
a it's like a it's like aprogram that's running uh and it's reliant upon
(25:22):
what another program to interact with it. Or it's very similar in Inaros and
Evil. Are you masters? Thisis incredible. This is another game changer
for my research. It blew mymind, and it was like, okay,
you got to think of it differently. So I did, but uh
you know, and uh so here'sthe deal. So this is what I
mean when the phenomenon will play intoroles. Okay, you want me to
(25:45):
be a demon, sure won't beOkay, fine, I'll be an alien.
I'll be I'll be dear in Ednaas well, I'll be your guide,
I'll be an angel. I couldbe whatever I want to be in
order to get you where I wantyou to go. So so in this
in this particular case study, inthis particular case study, doctor Colork Turner,
she had a case it's a dreamertoo. I'll think I forgot the
(26:06):
other case study, but I'll kindof snag that and connect it as well.
But Ted Rice was an expirator thathad worked with doctor color Turner and
he was abducted along with his grandmother. It was during this case study that
this entity tried to mate with thegrandmother and she saw through the veil.
Okay, yeah, whatever, I'mnot doing that, and she said,
I've only been into the one man. It's my husband. He's been deceased
(26:29):
now, and so suddenly, wouldn'tyou know from the shadows emerges pretty see,
husband, this is what I meanwhen the phenomena play rolls, is
that something like a tulpa? Well, I think it's kind of. What
I think they're doing though, isplucking images out of our mind and stepping
into those. Okay, It's justlike I had a case where a woman
(26:52):
was told me that she was abductedin her youth by Mickey Mouse, and
what they were doing is pulling animage out of her childlike mind because she
there was no YouTube, it wasjust video games, cartoons. And she
said what it began to take placewas that the image never grew, it
never aged, but she would growin age. And so it came to
a point one time one day,real quick, she was just like,
(27:12):
okay, this can't be you likethis does. I don't even watch cartoons
anymore, Yeah, you know Iused to. So there was this this
game and I'll finish with this realquick. And she said that sometimes I
love it, man, I loveit. Yet, but she said that
there was a moment when she startedto disbelieve in the image, and she
(27:33):
said, next thing she knows,its eyes got bigger, and it began
to and this is the words,it began to measure her belief very strange,
and then it would then the nextday and the next time it would
appear different, is what I'm saying. Okay, this sounds very again,
very similar to alien encounters. Yep. So do you do you think that
(28:00):
there are similarities because sometimes one ofthe other is the same and or are
there also separate realities? Are thereactual extraterrestrials coming from Afar or from the
dimension, whatever have you. Butthat's like a real separate thing, not
(28:22):
the same thing as and the spiritualentity of some sort. Well, I
think we're dealing with both. Butto answer your question specifically, I do
personally mean Nathaniel Gillis does. I'mnot really buying into the et hypothesis.
I think what's happened throughout history iswhen they appeared as darrant Edna, they'll
(28:42):
play the long game. And soyou know, one case was like,
okay, yeah, the psychond believeit is his mother, he's mother,
was given all these signs and guidanceand all that, and then twenty six
years later it did something or toldhim to do something that went against the
religious creed. It was then toset up to what us mother would have
believed. And so that's when hepushed back on it. It revealed itself.
(29:04):
It was not his mother at all. So if we're going to believe
they are everything that they have appearedto us as, why are we picking
the alien? Well, because that'swhat we're seeing now. I mean,
it's it's just like, you know, we have a mutual friend, Heidi
Hollis, and you know I alwaysquote her. She made she makes a
(29:26):
really good point. She's like,they give me a license because I pass
the test. They trust my eyeswhen I'm driving down the road. I
can recognize a bear crossing the road. I can recognize a deer, I
can recognize the red light. Myeyes are working fine. So you have
all these people who are just regularpeople going about their lives. Their eyes
(29:47):
are fine, and they see theyhave this experience with an alien extraterrestrial and
it's it's it can be a veryphysical experience, but it could also be
that liminal dream like state experience aswell. But you have people who have
very physical experiences or so they report, right, you don't think that that
(30:07):
would be an extraterrestrial like a physicalbiological or well, okay, This is
again we find this in the fieldthat's pervasive because a lot of people,
and I'm very honest with you,are very blunt and I've seen this from
UFO, Twitter and other people I'vecome across the field when they say that
these beings can't be aliens because theyhave bodies. What they're doing is applying
(30:30):
twenty first century Catholic demonology to aphenomenon that has stretched as terraconian shadow.
This way, throughout millennia, demonshave had bodies. That's the whole necessity
of a hybridization program. Create ababy, place my consciousness in it.
Now I have a biological avatar.These beings have told us that's what they're
doing. In many cases. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm
(30:53):
laughing because when you said that,it reminded me of Kevin Smith's Doug Agm
movie and you had those kids thatwere, you know, hockey players the
hockey sticks, like like, justI just see these demon children. I
mean that, Do you think that'sa real thing? Do you think that
that there are demons incarnate and humanbodies like that? Well, I think
(31:17):
that's the nature of possession. Andthis is why again, and a lot
of people, you know, andI do get, can I get?
It kind of gets old of mebecause you know, I know the literature
and I know the Mesopotamian texts andthe origins of this this mythology and what
they do. Well, that can'tbe demons. And they riddle off something
they found on a bumper sticker anda Trader Joe's parking lot, and you
(31:38):
know, nothing against that. Butif you're gonna make a point, not
you, I'm saying, you know, then especially on your for Twitter,
well you know, I know,demon It's like okay, yeah, you
know, unless we get down toit, and then it's like, wait
a minute, Wait a minute.They were doing this stuff forever. Yes,
they've been taking women and planting fetusesin their bodies for thousands and thousands
of years. We know that.It's okay, Now we have to move
(32:00):
forward. Yep. Let's go prepre Embramic, you know, and and
go back six thousand plus right yoursIs there evidence of demons existing before that?
Because demons, for the most part, as we understand them, we're
speaking them, are within the theyou know, the paradigm of what the
(32:25):
Catholic Church right has spread. Correct, So the earliest mythology regarding what a
demon was, it was never calleda demon. They were called rethatha,
and so in your Yugo ritic textthey were called the Repuumi. Shout out
to Caleb for going that earlier.There we go. Yeah, yeah,
(32:45):
yeah, he follows my research,so he knows. Yeah, that's awesome.
I love it. But yeah,So basically that this is where like
the two arguments regarding what demons werekind of split. The first hypothesis was
that these were deceased ancestors that hadinstead of evolving after death, they mutated
and they used all of their knowledgethat they gained in life against the human
(33:08):
species, and so then you havetheir refinem in biblical antiquity. But what
were they It was consciousness. Itwas consciousness. And so what the authors
began to describe, it doesn't matterif you're talking about the Testament of Reuben,
the Damascus Document, I'm just goingto riddle off a bunch of whatever.
Essentially, what all of these peopleexpressed was, Okay, we were
(33:30):
just sitting down one day and thesebeing showed up, Well, what were
they doing? Well, it doesn'treally matter what religious tradition it was.
They were after babies. They wantedhybrid children, and so they would take
the seed from a man, Helloyou A for abduction, and then take
it to a woman, Hello youA for abduction, insiminate her with the
(33:51):
fetus, and then take the fetusfor themselves. Now it got so prevalent
that we find this ritual or thismodus operandi implemented during high sabbaths and through
esoteric rituals. Sorcerers begin to implementthese tactics as a way to progress throughout
(34:15):
life. As a matter of fact, it's called the red Right. It's
Becka here, it's called the GoldenBow, written by James Fraser, talks
about this where this phenomenon is soprevalent that ancient warriors, when they realized
that they were on the battlefield andthey died at a mortal wound, they
would dispossess their own body and placetheir consciousness in someone else. This began
(34:42):
this this whole mythology of possession.What is possession really, it's not just
the relocation of consciousness, it's thereplication of life. And so it kind
of bleeds its way into interesting.Yeah, I don't want to ramble.
I tend to ramble because usually that'sa new thought. I haven't thought of
it that way, the replication oflife. But it's replicating over top.
(35:06):
It's like you know the old VHScassette tapes. It's like you're just kind
of recording over top of someone else'sconsciousness. Absolutely, yeah, it's yeah.
So you see their pathologies change andit evolves throughout history where you know
what's called the oh lord, no, it was. But basically, what
they're going to do is they weretrying to possess statues. They were trying
(35:30):
to possess all of these different imagesthat would bear the resemblance of the aporiginal
soul. This is what their theory, their working theory was. That's why
the Apocryphon of John there was aCoptic manuscript. It says that these beings
were appearing to women in the imagesof their lovers. It is absolutely no
different than the UFO abduction phenomena.The pathology, the victimology is it's the
(35:57):
very same. And although though Iwould say that a lot of abduction experiences
aren't that, you know, alot are just being brought on a craft,
you know, having a kind ofa communion with with the other whatever
it is and and learning things,being shown things and positive messages and what
(36:21):
have you, and then and thenbeing brought brought back. I mean not
all of them. Yeah, Imean I'm talking about the hybridization program,
right, I mean I'm not sayinglike every abduction account you know, no,
no, Right. So that makesme wonder like, is there evidence
of of in demonology, of thesedemon entities, you know, visiting but
(36:42):
not doing the horrific acts that weare there other more benign interactions. Not
really, not really. Now here'shere's what's unique about it. This again,
this is why they classified demonology.Okay, that's negative. But in
angelology, absolutely a great events,great experience is taking place. But what
(37:02):
we've noticed throughout the years, evenwith doctor Callar Turner's book The Masquerati of
Angels, is that the phenomenon willclaim something, oh, this is all
good, it's all we're good,and meanwhile we're like, okay, well
what are you even doing. It'salmost like a way to just kind of
navigate around the real issues. Thisis why doctor call Turner's book The Mascurrative
Angels, one of her experienceers askedthem, are you angels? Yes?
(37:25):
We are? Why would you saythat, Okay, then what are you
doing? Yeah, but we're notangels like you've been taught. So there
are times and I'll get to anothercase study with ario masters work where the
phenomenon again, okay, ye'll bethat. Why well, well, okay,
so angels there are different interpretations ofwhat the what angels are. One
(37:51):
could you know, from a theologicalstudy, one can say angels are really
pretty neutral. They're not. They'remore like machines than they are human.
Like, you know, they don'thave the same kind of emotional range.
They're not necessarily evil or good.They're just kind of doing God's will,
(38:14):
right, So I mean that's likeone. And then there's the other vision
of that. They're they're glowing withbeautiful light and love and that sort of
thing. So I mean those arejust two in today's you know, religious
traditions, exactly two different ways ofinterpreting them. Yeah, it is.
And what I think is so fascinatingtoo. It gets back to the disincarnate
consciousness aspect of it. In theEugaritic texts from which the Hebrews got their
(38:40):
mythologies, especially about angels, theyhave what are called malakuma and Malakuba again,
where de Sea ancestors that when theydied, they evolved into this new
being and so that became the malachimin Jewish literature. This is why it's
so fair. This is why theNew Testament. I don't want to get
(39:02):
on it theology real quick, butI just say this real quick, and
I end that unto theology is welcomehere any day. Okay, cool,
cool, But this is why whenPeter's family give us Peter, they thought
he had died, and he's knockedon their door. They freaked out and
they said, this must be hisangel. It's his angel. Why why
would they think angel? His angellooked identical to him. So there is
(39:23):
this this consciousness aspect of their beliefthat does it does bode well the theory
that Okay, at least some ofthese people believed either angels or demons,
either one. They're potentially disincarnate humanbeings and there's other texts for them.
So what what does that mean then? Are these things doing evil deeds?
(39:52):
Well, here's the problem. Here'sthe problem. When again we get into
morality, what would we consider tobe evil? I mean, you know,
let me put it this way.People, Well, let me put
it within the theological context. Soare they doing the good work of you
(40:13):
know, God, God? No? I mean it's like, okay,
what kind of an angel would proba six year old? I mean,
let's be real, what kind ofan angel would pull you out of your
own body possess your own body?Not really biblical? So then so you're
you're definitely not You're obviously not aliteralist because, like I was saying earlier,
(40:36):
you know these it would seem thatthey would have to get some kind
of permission. This is where Iyeah, this is where I kind of
differ from a lot of the demonologiststhe field is that whatever we're dealing with
it is it's eclipsing the microcosm ofnot just demonology but your apology. And
(40:57):
again we're lacking the vocabulary articularly thenuanced position this phenomenon deserves. But whatever
we're dealing with, it has playedthe role of everything to us. That's
why I believe it's sigular intelligence.But let me get back to aroos and
evil. Like I said, itwill play a role, It will facilitate
that for you as a theatrical performanceuntil there's a skip, until their technology
(41:22):
fails or we're no longer willing toplay it, and then something takes effect,
and Steve Marion Barry Fitzgerald calls thisa mechanism of reveal where the phenomenon
says, oh, I can't playthat anymore? Can I? Nope?
And now you're in front of what'sreally occurring, what's really going on.
So in Aras and Evil, ittalks about it's which are literature, but
(41:42):
it talks about how these demons.I'm just going to say this, the
phenomenon would put on the mask ofa demon and it would abduct witches.
Now it's not just Nathaniel's Verba chair. Literally, they were called demonic flights
because these people really believe, Okay, yes, I'm flying with these beings.
And so these beings would fly themout to some lonely lover's lane or
(42:05):
some witches sabbat, and these beingswould copulate with them, and so you'd
have a group of them and youwould have what they in which I lecture,
they said, Okay, there werecorpses, there were demons, and
so a lot of times what wouldhappen is that during the copulation, the
technology that was being employed would failand for a fleeting moment, these people
(42:30):
would look around and realize that theseare not these aren't these are not demons,
and these are not corpses. Theywere being poked and product by metallic
objects, the sounds, metallic objectsthat were cold to the touch. Guess
what they were doing alan taking seedand implanting it into women. So there
(42:52):
is this weird protocola belief that sometimesthe phenomenon will induce us and do and
then it'll be a theatrical performance.Yeah. Yeah, see, then it
could be the inverse, right,because I mean, do you have people
who are religious saying these are aliensare actually demons and x y Z,
(43:12):
which we've kind of covered here tonight. But then the reverse can be said
that it's just that you're misinterpreting extratrestrails or ultratrest reels. It's a misinterpretation.
It's that they're not like any kindof divine entity. They're not some
kind of you know, byproduct ofangels or fallen angels or anything like that.
Right. Well, the problem isthat they're now starting to teach doctrine.
(43:32):
When you have your leading experiencer sayingthat raw is God or that fault
is God, or that's an egyptEgyptian deity is God, or or that
I got a phone call and nowI can go into churches and lay hands
on people. What that's doing whenpeople might not like it, but watch
this. What that's doing is blurringthe line between religiosity sure in this subject.
(43:54):
And that's when my I'm like,wait a minute, it's very strange.
I flew foul the miles to tellyou that a religious system, it's
very It's very again, this getsback to nature. There's something wrong with
the correct model, is what I'msaying, right, And that was name
is slipping my head. But hewas kind of friends with David Wilcox,
and there was those videos came outof a deposition he had and he had
(44:19):
to pretty much admit that all hisliterature was essentially fictionalized his alien encounter.
Anyone listening, maybe Angel, maybeyou'll remember who I'm talking about. That's
the name of slipping in my mind. But this happens where I think you
do have people who are actual experiencersand they come back and they changed the
message though that the human does,and that's kind of how that's also how
(44:44):
I interpret the Bible right, becauseno matter how many priests tell me that
it's the word of God, Iknow that flesh human beings wrote this down
first. They told each other stories. And we are a faulty you know,
(45:06):
We've got plenty of character defects,you know, to go around,
no matter what the age is.And so people can change the story a
little bit, you know, youcan embellish a little bit, You can
alter just enough so that it workswith your own, like you said,
your own morality, whatever that mightbe. And so I think modern day
(45:29):
alien abduction experiencers do that as well. They come back and they embellish and
they build a kind of a mythologythat wasn't necessarily there in the actual experience.
Correct. And this is another hypothesisthat some of my heroes and I
are pitching discussing. Why is itthat way? We know for a fact
(45:52):
now because of the case studies thatwhen an experiencer meets these beings or the
phenomenon manifest to them, that inmany cases the phenomenon can dictate what that
experience ever remembers and how they interpretthe memory. Which, again, how
much power does this intelligence have overus? When we have doctor Carla Turner
(46:15):
again saying Okay, this particular experienceor saw Ufo literally in her mind believe
that she gave her friend binoculars andpulled out the telescope. Telescope was in
the box. The next morning,she didn't even have binoculars, but the
phenomenon had given them that screen memoryin order to hide. Now here's a
(46:36):
question I would like everybody entertain.It's not what they're wanting us to remember
that matters. It's what they're wantingus to forget. And there are certainly
case after case that the case whereokay, yeah, yeah, this happened,
even to the point where where anassault occurred, and then when they
get back home we have to reinterpretit. It was a nice thing.
I liked it, or I agreedto it. Prehistory, free life in
(47:00):
what it seems to be. Andwe're getting very close to the end.
But I would suggest to everybody,this is what's happening when we've had in
the past, we've had them appearas Uncle Tommy and Darren Edna, but
many in many cases, we've snuffedthem out to where they will they will
zig zag when Darren Edna wouldn't haveor they would do something that's antithetical to
(47:23):
the historical record we have. Now. What's happened is the program has introduced
a new character to the game.We cannot vet the et A thousand different
origins, a thousand different explanations,a thousand different reasons why they're here.
They're raising consciousness. Where are at? Oh, we're there, we're here,
We're over there. We cannot vetthem. Now. What we're doing
(47:46):
is we're placing the weight and oftheir words on the amounts of phenomenon we
can document when they're present. Bringa camera. This means what they're telling
me is true. How do youknow that? Will we have it on
film? Well? Yeah, ifJohn d had them on film, sure
he believed they're right too, Sothey weren't then. And then you realized,
(48:09):
wait a minute, has this beena game the entire time? What
is actually occurring here the way?No, it's Corey, Corey good I
was referring to earlier. Oh yeah, yeah, I remember him. Yeah.
How many entities are they're out there? Or at least do you do
(48:31):
you think they know different types anddescriptions? I have no idea at this
point in my research. I knowit's going to be poo pooed by many
people who watch this. It's okay, uh oh, I don't really care
at this point. Yeah, sohere's the deal. In my mind,
I believe we're dealing with secial intelligenceand the parapsychological field. They're starting to
(48:52):
come to that same conclusion. Youknow when when Bigelow was on Skinwalker Ranch.
You know, they asked them,what did you experience? Every everything?
Possession, demons in succubi, aliens, ghosts. Why I have to
tell you as time goes on.Okay, so nineteen ninety nine, I
(49:15):
was about twenty twenty years old,I guess when the Matrix came out,
and it was like mind blowing,like oh my gosh, you know,
really stimulating intellectually, like the ideaof a simulation or that we're in some
kind of computer game. Right,but more maturely now I'm actually starting to
(49:37):
think that that maybe we are insome kind of simulation. You know that
one source that quote unquote creator correct, you know it is is the either
whatever's behind the simulation or the simulationitself is giving the commands and creating the
(49:57):
rules. And yah, because Ifeel I could explain a lot of this
stuff. It would whatever we're dealingwith. I mean, I think that
what we're encountering, even with theparanormals, a lot of times we're looking
at the reality that we are justa subculture, whatever this is. We
are a microcosm with a larger macrocosm. And sometimes we see an overlapping of
(50:21):
events, or sometimes the phenomenon willmake eye contact and then for that fleeting
moment we'll see, Okay, that'swhat it really was. Or you know,
like I said, which our literature, Bay, this was its not
a corpsuore deemon? What was it? The phenomenon putting on a theatrical performance
for them in order to garner consent, just to make things easier. And
(50:42):
that's what leads me to believe,you know, like if all of this
was love and light, why lie? Why would you deceive me? Why
would you appear? I mean,like, what is really going on here
is so the amount of exception.At a certain point in my research,
I was like, you know,if this was well and good, we
could comprehend it. Just tell us, don't don't have to light in me.
(51:06):
You don't want to pull me outof my body and make me question
if that was a theorial or not. So there's that it's weird. I
almost feel like it's not the ideaof love. I do feel like it
is a force unto itself, somethingthat is binding and is like in a
(51:27):
sense, I say this loosely theanswer to all our questions. But but
I but what I mean is thatif we're whether whether we're in a program
or whether the universe is like amultiverse and it's just one of gagillion,
gagillion, you know whatever versions ofreality that have ever existed and I never
(51:50):
will, and that we just gotlucky in this one with the physics that
it evolved so that love be camethe primary end goal, meaning it didn't
start necessarily like that, but itevolved that way, and that's now the
(52:12):
love is the end goal, that'sthe primary. So inherently it was neutral,
good, bad, evil, allthe same, didn't matter, the
rules didn't But then as time,as a program evolved and became more sophisticated,
love became another running program within theoverall system. And then that's why
(52:37):
it's like, how do we havethis wonderful idea of love and that this
is like the saving grace If that'strue, then why are there all these
bad things? I think for me, that's one way to kind of explain
it that love didn't come first,the universal one love? Okay, yeah,
like and a me by right,I mean it was a single cell
(52:59):
creature, right, and then itsplit off into other creatures and became more
complex, and then you had allthese other systems that built off right of
the single cells. So maybe it'ssomething like that, and then that's why.
That way you can kind of getaround, well, well what if
God? If God's good, thenhow can this be? Yeah? That's
and that's something I get a lotof from my evangelical I mean, I've
(53:20):
got family that couldn't care less whatI do and don't like it, you
know, so I get a lotof that from them, you know,
like, well, if it isGod, you know, it's like,
well, you know, I don'tknow. I think that again, that
knowing that these beings can make youfeel whatever they want to they know,
man, I mean there's cases wherethey knew when people were going to die
on that's right, Or how aboutthis one? They'll simulate a near death
(53:45):
experience and then threaten you that thatdoesn't fit and you know, it doesn't
even fit within the framework of whatI grew up in and so I had
to and this is me personally,I had to to just abandon the dog,
embrace the data, and to betruthful. I mean, it's much
more fascinating now, all right.So really going to get a couple of
(54:07):
questions in for you. So UFOTasks any long term percussion repercussions for people
who routinely engage with this phenomena,don't that's my thing. Don't look And
this is my perspective. We've gotto get out of the twenty first century
narrative of what this phenomenon wants usto believe it is. This is possible,
(54:28):
It's possible. We're only looking atits latest incarnation. If you want
to know it's pathology and victimology gothroughout history. It's the same thing.
In order to see beyond the veilanceof the mask, you have to look
at the literature. And I canjust tell you what I've been hearing lately
that yes, Bigelow's never going backto Skinwalker because look, it ruined a
(54:50):
lot of people's lives. It wasjust a bartering of technology where hey,
listen, pity us. Pity us, will build you an altar, We'll
give you worse ship, will pray. We'll do whatever you want us to
do in order to get, youknow, access to your technology. But
at what point and what are weleveraging? And so that's really where a
lot of my colleagues in our at. But the thing is, Okay,
(55:14):
we don't know what they are.We don't know what their intentions are for
us. We can only guess.We know what a lot of experiences are
remembering. But again, are thosescreen memories were first of all, were
they out of body or were theyend by? I mean, I can
keep going down this. It's agreat point, and we don't only have
(55:34):
so much time, So I'm wantto get this one last question. Sorry,
Caleb, He says, I realizedthese entities wear a mask in order
to deceive. What is Nathaniel's perspectiveon the list of demons in Isaiah thirty
four or fourteen, the desert creatures, wild Beast, the Satyr, Goat,
demons and liliths well liliths, Wellagain I call these protocols of belief
(56:00):
because it's not enough for them towear the mask. You have to believe
in it. You have to believethat that mask is actually an essential part
of their existence. So when Italk about Lilith, the Little Spirit Acadian
text, if Anetian literature, it'sconsciousness. It's that afterlife moment that leaves
the body, and that is againthe necessity for a hybrid baby. I
(56:22):
want a baby that looks like myapparition. So that's what I believe they
are. I believe that was oneof the earliest attempts to place a face
on the phenomenon. But I dobelieve that they and have themselves were programs
not people. All right. Well, Caleb also continues that could these be
the skinwalkers and the reptilian entities.Yes, we've had cases where they've all
(56:45):
been present and are doing the samethings to the same people. Or I
had one case where literally you're lookingat them and then the individuals said,
it turns and you see that therewas like just a cloak. You don't
really see the entity. It's justso, yeah, do you feel safe
doing what you do? Oh?I love it. I wouldn't do anything
(57:05):
else. Yeah, I love it. Man. People ask me, I
been do I get attachments? Now? I had a really bad X one
time. But that's about it.But I guess so, yeah, you
know, honestly, how much stagedid you learn? Yeah, yeah,
hopefully. Well, I mean,look, look, it's and that's that's
(57:25):
what's the interesting thing part about thisis is love, I do think is
at the center of healing and allof that, whether it's relationships and right
and and entities or demons. ButI can tell you, in the real
world what is probably unreconcilable as ademon or an alien abduction would be a
(57:50):
narcissist, you know, And andI and I noticed that there's very narcissistic
qualities to a lot of these evilencounters and entities. Yes, yes,
the access to knowledge that they haveis unprecedented. Yeah, you know,
in Prague they said that they hadcaptured a demon that would walk around telling
(58:10):
people when they were going to die. It's true, that's I mean,
that's a power triper there. Yeah, I think and people that know my
work, No, I've talked aboutthis before in lectures where they do have
almost the serr killer pathology. It'snot enough that I know that, and
this is very dark, but it'snot enough that I know that so and
(58:32):
so's father killed himself. I haveto let that person know I pull the
trigger. That is that's tapped inthe head, that's messed up, that's
totally mess up. Exactly if youcan leave us on a light note,
Ianny, what would it be?Not much? I think again, they're
(58:52):
playing by different rules because they're playinga different game. And I differ with
most humanologists. I think that whateverwe're dealing with has been manipulating us as
a species. But man, whata great what a great time I've had
with you, my friend, mynew friend from New York, and totally
jelly that you get to get somenice pizza and I get Dominoes. Next
(59:15):
time you come to New York,Yetta, let me know though, for
sure, get me some some somegood pizza. What is your favorite pizza
New York? By the way,just why, I to be honest.
I gotta be honest with you.Pizza is from New Jersey, So whoa
holy water, I'm just kidding me. Yeah, but yeah, well there's
plenty places, there's plenty good places. We'll find something for you. But
(59:38):
yeah, so where do people findout about your work? What you're doing?
So I'm all over YouTube. Ihave a YouTube channel it's Nathaniel Gillis,
and I have an Instagram page andI have a website. You got
too too much work to do.I just I'm very simple, god very
I'm a minimalist. So just followme on YouTube, follow me on Instagram.
(59:58):
That's it, all right, Daniel. Thank you so much, man,
Thank you sir. Have a goodone. Yeah you too, everybody,
thank you so much for joining ustonight. Thank you for all the
new faces, for joining us onMystic Lounge. I appreciate you. If
you want to hang around this channel, please your comment like I'd love to
hear your feedback on tonight's discussion.And of course, if you missed tonight's
broadcast, you can always recatch iton the X Network at eleven pm Pacific
(01:00:23):
time on Thursday nights and to am Eastern time on Friday nights Friday mornings.
So that's where we'll be special Thanksto Margie K and Race Hobbs and
until next time, list love s
You're listening to Mystic Lounge with AlanB. Smith, rebroadcast on the ONEX
Network Thursdays at eleven pm Pacific Fridaysat two a m. Eastern. However
(00:33):
you are and whenever you are,welcome, good souls to Mystic Lounge.
I'm Alan B. Smith. You'rea grateful host. Joining me tonight is
Nathaniel Gillis, demonologist, he isan author, he's a lecturer. Uh
and he's a really really cool guy. So hanging in. He'll be here
with us in just a moment.As a friendly reminder, this podcast is
(00:55):
rebroadcast on the ONEX Network at elevenpm Eastern Standard time, Eastern daylight time
and eleven specific time Thursday nights.So yeah, this is gonna be a
really interesting one. Honestly, Idon't remember the last time we've talked about
demons specifically per se, So wereally do have a fantastic guest tonight joining
(01:19):
us. As a friendly reminder,if you could support this channel by liking,
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(01:40):
or x and at Power Normal Nowon Instagram. All right, so let's
bring on Nathaniel Gillis. He isa demonologist, author and lecturer. After
living in a haunted house, Nathanielspent twenty years researching what it was he
encountered. Nathaniel has sought to redefinethe name feature of haunting phenomena, ghosts
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and high strangeness. As one ofthe thought leaders in his field, Nathaniel's
hypothesis is not that aliens are demons, but that a singular intelligence has worn
both as masks in which to hide. In fact, he is often quoted
for his concept of the phenomena quotethe reason they are playing by different rules
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is because they are playing by adifferent game. Nathaniel, Welcome to Mystic
Lounge. Brother, how are you? Thank you for having me on.
It's always great to make new friendsand to meet new people, and of
course thank you for having me onto discuss my research. It's a real
pleasure. Absolutely. Well, let'sstart with that encounter and we we'll take
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it from there. So, whatwas that encounter that you had the first
time, oh my encounter, myconfrontation with this phenomenon began at the young
age of eight years old. Ihad to do a new house and that
house was basically possessed by an elevenand being. And once I experienced that
haunting, it was very strange.I mean, being an eight year old
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kid, the only thing I knewto do was to play basketball, play
video games. I had no frameof reference for anything remotely close to what
we're going to talk about tonight.But what I realized was that whatever entity
this was, it was almost likeit was projecting a fear upon me.
It was fabricating terror, and thenit would feed off of the trauma that
created on me. It was very, very weird. How do you know
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about your imagination? What? Hey, what's fascinating. So one of the
very first phenomena that I encountered wasa full blown conversation going on above my
head at night, And so Iwould wake up at nighttime and I could
hear two things, That's the onlyway I know how to describe them,
talking back and forth to each other. A host of other things shadow figures
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that were witnessed in the house.When I would go to bed at nighttime,
you could hear a weight displacing itselfon the wooden floors, just a
tremendous amount of minute the station.But I experienced it, and then it
wasn't until later on in the field, I mean now that I started realizing
that's called the DVP Direct voice phenomena. And your parapsychologists realized, I mean,
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they had captured in an audio before, and they believe in Steve Marrionberry
fitz Erald will talk about that.Where forget EVPs, when you get DVP
direct voice phenomena, that's that's literallyit's always above your head and usually rather
and they converse with each other,and so it was saturated. It wasn't
my imagination. I wish it was. But the older I became, the
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more I realized and others did aswell. This wasn't just something I had
just made up in my mind.It wasn't psychosis, that there was something
actually in that house that was eitherattempting to communicate or was just manifesting.
And I'm a level of haunting,very strange stuff. Were you raised Catholic?
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No, No, it wasn't.No excuse meess, So No,
I was raised evangelical though, andI've since emancipated myself from a lot of
the strange at rules I grew upin. But it was strange, you
know, I mean going through thatand then going to a local church and
saying, you know, hello,mister Gith pastor, what do you do
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about shadow people? Yeah? Right, But wouldn't they just immediately assume you're
talking about a demon in their intheir worldview? Right? Absolutely? Absolutely?
And so it was such a contradictionin a juxtaposition because when you go,
like you said, when you go, okay, this is what I'm
witnessing, uh, smoky apparitions,just just different manifestations, you know,
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they would of course they would lumpthem all underneath the umbrella being horns and
hubs, And so I grew upkind of listening to that, experiencing the
phenomenon. And then later on mydad, my dad, my father took
up pastoral ship, and then hewas it's fascinating. Would fly over herew
scholars from Miseruel and so here Iam eating dinner with some of the most
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famous and top of the field Religiouscholars in the world, and I'm picking
their brain. We're eating Chipotle,Allan and good old Chipotle, And I'm
like, hey, what do youthink about demons? You know, what
do you think about different manifestations anddifferent mythologies? And what I realized was
that not only has the evangelical worldhighlighted the phenomenon as all horns and hoofs,
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but the phenomenon itself has allowed itselfto be viewed as that. How
do we distinguish how do we distinguishthe fiction from what you're convinced is the
reality? Because, like you said, the horns, right, So demons
come from you know, a longhistory of interpretation, and horns were often
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than just the pagan gods, rightright, and so that sign of divinity
or deity. Yeah, So ifthe horns were just the sign of pagan
gods, were the pagan gods reallydemons or what is that? What's this
thought there? Well, one thingis very very obvious here when you get
into the literature. Our ancestors didencounter something that intelligence did manipulate them.
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It did things to them. Itcreated the hybridization program in biblical antiquity of
Mesopotamian infects. You can get tothose down a little bit, but they
did encounter something. And one thingthat I've been able to look for and
hopefully nail it down, is thatthere are certain behavioral patterns that the phenomenon
manifest and has manifested throughout history.Now, what has happened to us culturally
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is we've used what's called mytho poetryor mythology and poetry as one. And
so whereas we have technology and antiquity, they would just rock their kids asleep,
or they would tell stories about thecampfire and said, this is exactly
what your mother encountered, or thisis exactly what I encounter. And so
depending on if it was a negativeexperience or if it was a positive experience,
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that's where they put the phenomenon.If it's a good message to the
angel. If it terrified me,well it must have been a demon.
And so it was in this timein history where they begin to personify evil,
personifications of evil, where like naturalevents would take place. Oh my
god, it's the demon of fever. You know, they's done a demon
of fever, right, But thatdoesn't mean they were not experiencing entities that
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were haunting and doing things to themthat were not very pleasant. In a
way, I guess you could saydemons were assigned roles, not unlike saints
are right, like the saint ofthis or the saint of that. There
was like the demon of this,the demon of that correct. Correct.
And then sometimes you would have lemageto who you know, she would descend
down in the middle of the nightand she would you see highlights of Ufo
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abduction and Nikubai Seccuby encounter where shewould stare into the eyes of the woman.
The woman would go to bed witha child inside the wood. Within
the next morning it's gone. Andso they would yeah, this is fascinating
stuff, but that's it's important too. But they would actually create second faces
out of iron and they would wearit around their necks as a religious amulant,
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hoping that when they were with child, that when that entity would descend
down, it would scare it tothe wrong eyes, meaning the next morning,
the child that they were pregnant withwould still be with them. And
so the missing fetus syndrome, it'snot a new phenomenon, it's just being
document in a new light. Wehave that intublical antiquity. We had that
in Mesopotavia text, we had thatin the sixteenth century. And so what
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I've basically done is approaches the phenomenonlike a serial killer that wears many aliases
and masks, yet in each newincarnation it just reincorporates its own agenda.
And we've seen that. I couldprove that tonight, but that's when I
realized, Okay, some of theseare the result of you know, feverish
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fancies and sexual appetites, just thisweird psychological sociological makeup. At other times,
no, there's something very real occurring, because we've seen the same hegral
pattern throughout history and it's still occurringto this day. So to go back,
did you have an encounter what youconsider a shadow person or a demon?
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I don't know what it was theshut of person that I witnessed.
I was playing a video game ofnight. All the lights are off and
watch this bright screen. I sawa movement on the corner of my right
eye. I just looked, andwhen you know, in your eyes suggested
the darkness there, I am.I see this thing looking at me through
the window, featureless, featureless,and I just remember, okay, focusing
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on him, and all a sudden, when I did, he just turned
its head That's when I just lostit. I ran in my parents room
freaking out. That was that wasin the wintertime. The next morning I
went outside and there were footprints,like boot foot boot prints outside in front
of my window. Now the strangestthing is my window. See it was
about seven foot tall. So whateverit was, this gets again into how
science fails us. It was ashadow figure, but it was physically there,
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which is very strong. So inbetween worlds in a sense. Yes,
the interdimensionality of this phenomenon. Cannotignore it when you do elections.
I say that they're present with perabsent from and we cannot discount the paradoxical
nature, right, I mean withuphology, you know, even with aliens
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they were can walk through the walland then solidify to the touch. So
there is this kind of in betweenliminal space that I believe they exist in
that we are completely I mean,I'm not saying I am. I know
I am, but maybe our governmentknows. But wherever they are, I
do believe it's the end between.Are they are they evil? Inherently evil?
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These things? Man, You're hittingme hard with the good questions already,
So I'll tell you what this is. Where my colleagues and I are
at there is a profound amount ofdeception occurring. Now if we look at
the capabilities of the phenomenon, it'salmost like we have the real thing,
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and then we have some kind ofintelligence that mimics the real thing for its
own purposes. So in my research, in my case studies, mainly I've
been dealing with incubied and suckuby victimsand going to go into that a little
bit. What maybe anubias? Okay, so what an incubus is. It's
an entity that appears to women inthe images of a man. Usually it's
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in the image of a lover,someone they've been with in the past,
or a deceased husband, or someonethey're even with today. And so primarily
that's what my about the last twoor three years of my research has been
central around is dealing with experiences ofthis phenomenon, getting through the trauma,
putting marriages back together again, andhelping them understand their experience. But to
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answer your question more specifically, Ido believe that this is a singular intelligence
and that the way it deceives usis alarming. And you know, I've
done other shows before where the questionis okay, we know there, that's
not a question. You know.We know, like with ted Rice,
we know that wasn't his real grandpa, grandfather that tried to assault him as
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a child. It was an entitythat had had used the cognitive interface of
someone that this individual knew in orderto garner some form. And I say
it's lust because it's not consent.But then in another way, it really
is trying to get them to goalong with the agenda that they want to
employ. So deception is at hand. The question is are they deceiving us
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for our own good? That well, in that particular instance, I connect
that's too dramatic. I don't knowhow good that is. It's the same
argument that they have with the iliandabduction phenomena, right like is well,
yes, I would suggest to everybodythat the esoteric nature of this phenomenon cannot
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be understated. These beings far longbefore they were poking their you know,
walking into rooms at night time,they were coming to tables of seances,
necromancers, spiritualists, esoteric rituals.And so when we realize that, then
we okay, it's not what youcall me, it's what I answer to.
That's when I started to kind oflook at this phenomenon, and I
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say, okay, what would ane to have to do with esoteric rights
from a bramble in then age anda life of Levi And unless there is
some kind of connection between the twothat they either don't want us to know
of, and so they say,okay, yeah, focus on the skies
and the technology, not realizing there'ssomething deeply spiritual all this. You know,
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it has to be or else,or else they're just responding to anything
and everything, which is not thecase. Are we working from a handicap?
Meaning absolutely? Meaning that the realthe old literature and the majority of
it Western literature on demonology comes fromessentially the Catholic Church. Uh yeah,
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that's where the greatest either got thegrimoires and you know these other texts and
whatnot where they've been written about,and so there is this sort of interpretation
that they're these evil things. Butthen if you look at the Bible,
like the Book of Job, Luciferhas to get permission from God to I
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forget what the trick job or oh, to give him some kind of like
something, Yeah, you can't togive him like some kind of like torture
of some sorry if I forget whatit was, like some skin thing or
whatever. But like so if ifLucifer needed permission from God to be able
to do these certain things, becausein God's will, it's like, well,
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it's about tempting man and humans,right, like can this man or
woman resist? You know? Cancan they still speak my name when they're
suffering? So this sounds to melike if Satan is a tool then of
God, then wouldn't a demon thenbe a tool? Well, according to
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that form of demonology. But again, the earliest text regarding these beings were
that they were basically ascended masters.And then and then in Hebrew consciousness they
started to reintegrate and reincorporate some ofthe Mesopotamian literature. And then you have
in limitations Moses saying you sacrifice togods that were no gods, Comma to
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gods. Wait a minute, theyweren't gods, two gods who recently appeared.
What I would suggest is this Ilearned this early on in my research
because I had to absolutely Caleb,haha, my buddy, Yes, thank
you for tuning in, my friend. I told you we're gonna have some
people from my neck of the woodsman. Amazing. Yeah, so thanks
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for doing what? Okay, Sohere's the deal. When you look at
the phenomenon, what it can doand when it can't, what it knows,
what it can produce in a life. A lot of these, and
I should say it like this diabolicaldogmatism, A lot of that, even
the dogmatists that I grew up listeningto. The phenomenon is the eclipsing near
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microcosm. And here's why. Letme just throw out a case study to
you and for those who all right. So I was doing a lecture one
night on skin anomalies and scarifications duringpossessions and hauntings and how it correlates tremendously
with UFO of Dutch phenomenon, andan individual reached out to me and said,
listen, a lot of these scarificationsand religious ambulances. They sound a
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lot like what my late father experiencedwhen he would go out of his body
and meet his guys. This iswhen my paradigm shifted and it was like,
okay, I had to re examineeverything I've been taught and even that
which I grew up wanting to believethese beings were this blew my mind.
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I said, okay. So wegot on the phone and he's telling me
his story. He said, well, my father would go and meet his
guides. He would go out ofhis body and he would get prophecies,
words of knowledge, all kinds ofjust things regarding the armageddon and this theatology.
And he said, one night hisdad got back into his body.
He was doing a session and thenhe said he came walking down the stairs.
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He was in coherent, he waspale, and he was just inconsolable,
and he had a massive heart attack. And he said when we took
him to the hospital, and theysaid that we were looking at his chest
and he said, it just beganto turn a red and from underneath his
skin subdermally, there were these threereligious ambults that came from underneath the skin
to the surface. This is thisis a real story. This is a
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real story. This, Yes,I have photographs of it. Now here's
what's the most interesting. Okay,subdermal scarifications. They're not new. We
usually see them in malevolent hauntings withscratches. There's a burning sensation. Sometimes
it's on the skin, through theskin to the inside of it. A
lot of times it's subtermalin. Itmoves from underneath the skin to the surface.
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Now, this particular experiencer said thatwhen he met his guides that he
realized that they were not his guidesat all, that they were entities that
had lined themselves up in a metallicroom. And when he started conversing with
them, out of body, hesaid, next thing he knows, he
slammed back into his body. Now, my main point here is important.
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One was one was an Egyptian hieroglyphicthat arched its way over top. One
was the Jewish Star of David,and the other one was the Crawls.
What I realized was that even ouresotericism is limited because the way that these
beings employ amulets is completely alien towhat demonology would even consider. These are
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antithetical religious traditions. You will nothave a Jewish rabbi employing the cross.
You won't. You will not havea priest employing the Jewish Star of Davia.
There are two different religious mythologies,sure, and you certainly won't have
either of them employing Egyptian hieroglyphics.So whatever we're dealing with, or whatever
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they're employing against us, it's likeI said, it's eclipsing demonology. That's
when I said, Okay, yes, I do have texts, but as
far as I'm concerned, some ofthem have to do with their origin,
the origin of these beings. WhatI'm looking for, behavioral patterns, what
are they doing? What's the significanceof those three symbols. I'm not sure
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yet. Honestly, I'm not sureyet. I still haven't been able to
translate the Egyptian hieroglyphic. The closestto and he's really the closest to this
case I've heard of was a casethat Steve Mehra had. But in addition
to that, there's a book behindme by Bramlin the Maid who was a
sage, he was a magician.This is where a lot of your life
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is Levi's research come from. Andeven the Bastardd's cabalistic text that uh that
Alister Crowley took some of his rightsfrom. But anyways, like Bramlin the
Maide says this, he's like,you know, he goes, I've scoured
the world studying religious ambulance, andhe said, he's he said, it's
fascinating. He said, at theend of his life, he came across
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a being or a no magician thatwas performing angel magic, and the way
he was doing that was taking hieroglyphics, the Jewish Star of David and then
the Cross and mixing them together insome kind of cocktail. It makes no
sense to us because we've compartmentalized it. Well. Also because if there if
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it's angel magic, one would assumethat that existed before, or Christianity even
existed, right, right, orJudaism for that matter, correct, correct,
And this is another complexity that hasalmost driven me mad when you look
at even in Marriolotry, when youlook at, okay, the Church of
Satan and some of the dark sorceryrights and all that stuff and the incantations.
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Marriolatry began with the worship of Marryand then as soon as that took
place, there were sorcerers who beganto mock Merriolotry and employ that in their
rituals. So there is something tothe human belief that plays a role in
this phenomenon. But I agree,so I don't know what it all means.
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What it told me, though,more than anything, was okay,
they're not playing by our roles Thisreminds me a little bit of the idea
that the observer effect that reality accordingto seems physics quantum physics, that without
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the consciousness of observing reality, itdoesn't coalesce, it doesn't exist right in
the way we perceive it. Andso what does that mean about time?
Right? So is it possible thatthese other things are able to perceive time
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in a different way than we are, and that they that the reality is
somewhat dependent upon us any way,Yes, there is a symbiotic and embryonic
relationship that they have with us.This gets back to the nature of the
phenomenon and the way it's manipulated asthrough centuries. Let's get back to some
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of the research I was doing aboutfive years ago. When you get into
these case studies, and I've hadmore than a few of them where let's
just say that a woman goes tobetter and she thinks it's her husband,
and they have a physical encounter,and then only afterwards she realizes that there
are certain facial features that this beingis demonstrating that does not belong to her
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husband of thirty years. There isthis role playing aspect. I call it
a protocol of belief that the phenomenonwill strap us into, and the question
was bagged do you believe I amwho I appear to be? Right?
And it's falling right into your theoryhere because it's okay, I'm not just
observing it. I have a roleto play in this encounter. I had
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a case in India where a womanwas approached seven different times by the phenomenon
and it was like it appeared asevery man she had ever been with,
and it was almost like working herlike a safe okay, do you believe
I am? And each time she'slike, okay, you know, no,
there's something off. I know thisis not who you're trying to appear
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as. And so I think that'swhere we're at. But there is this
protocol will believed the phenomenon puts usin where unless you believe I am who
I appear to be, there's there'sa snag in the program. So it's
a it's like a it's like aprogram that's running uh and it's reliant upon
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what another program to interact with it. Or it's very similar in Inaros and
Evil. Are you masters? Thisis incredible. This is another game changer
for my research. It blew mymind, and it was like, okay,
you got to think of it differently. So I did, but uh
you know, and uh so here'sthe deal. So this is what I
mean when the phenomenon will play intoroles. Okay, you want me to
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be a demon, sure won't beOkay, fine, I'll be an alien.
I'll be I'll be dear in Ednaas well, I'll be your guide,
I'll be an angel. I couldbe whatever I want to be in
order to get you where I wantyou to go. So so in this
in this particular case study, inthis particular case study, doctor Colork Turner,
she had a case it's a dreamertoo. I'll think I forgot the
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other case study, but I'll kindof snag that and connect it as well.
But Ted Rice was an expirator thathad worked with doctor color Turner and
he was abducted along with his grandmother. It was during this case study that
this entity tried to mate with thegrandmother and she saw through the veil.
Okay, yeah, whatever, I'mnot doing that, and she said,
I've only been into the one man. It's my husband. He's been deceased
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now, and so suddenly, wouldn'tyou know from the shadows emerges pretty see,
husband, this is what I meanwhen the phenomena play rolls, is
that something like a tulpa? Well, I think it's kind of. What
I think they're doing though, isplucking images out of our mind and stepping
into those. Okay, It's justlike I had a case where a woman
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was told me that she was abductedin her youth by Mickey Mouse, and
what they were doing is pulling animage out of her childlike mind because she
there was no YouTube, it wasjust video games, cartoons. And she
said what it began to take placewas that the image never grew, it
never aged, but she would growin age. And so it came to
a point one time one day,real quick, she was just like,
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okay, this can't be you likethis does. I don't even watch cartoons
anymore, Yeah, you know Iused to. So there was this this
game and I'll finish with this realquick. And she said that sometimes I
love it, man, I loveit. Yet, but she said that
there was a moment when she startedto disbelieve in the image, and she
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said, next thing she knows,its eyes got bigger, and it began
to and this is the words,it began to measure her belief very strange,
and then it would then the nextday and the next time it would
appear different, is what I'm saying. Okay, this sounds very again,
very similar to alien encounters. Yep. So do you do you think that
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there are similarities because sometimes one ofthe other is the same and or are
there also separate realities? Are thereactual extraterrestrials coming from Afar or from the
dimension, whatever have you. Butthat's like a real separate thing, not
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the same thing as and the spiritualentity of some sort. Well, I
think we're dealing with both. Butto answer your question specifically, I do
personally mean Nathaniel Gillis does. I'mnot really buying into the et hypothesis.
I think what's happened throughout history iswhen they appeared as darrant Edna, they'll
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play the long game. And soyou know, one case was like,
okay, yeah, the psychond believeit is his mother, he's mother,
was given all these signs and guidanceand all that, and then twenty six
years later it did something or toldhim to do something that went against the
religious creed. It was then toset up to what us mother would have
believed. And so that's when hepushed back on it. It revealed itself.
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It was not his mother at all. So if we're going to believe
they are everything that they have appearedto us as, why are we picking
the alien? Well, because that'swhat we're seeing now. I mean,
it's it's just like, you know, we have a mutual friend, Heidi
Hollis, and you know I alwaysquote her. She made she makes a
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really good point. She's like,they give me a license because I pass
the test. They trust my eyeswhen I'm driving down the road. I
can recognize a bear crossing the road. I can recognize a deer, I
can recognize the red light. Myeyes are working fine. So you have
all these people who are just regularpeople going about their lives. Their eyes
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are fine, and they see theyhave this experience with an alien extraterrestrial and
it's it's it can be a veryphysical experience, but it could also be
that liminal dream like state experience aswell. But you have people who have
very physical experiences or so they report, right, you don't think that that
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would be an extraterrestrial like a physicalbiological or well, okay, This is
again we find this in the fieldthat's pervasive because a lot of people,
and I'm very honest with you,are very blunt and I've seen this from
UFO, Twitter and other people I'vecome across the field when they say that
these beings can't be aliens because theyhave bodies. What they're doing is applying
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twenty first century Catholic demonology to aphenomenon that has stretched as terraconian shadow.
This way, throughout millennia, demonshave had bodies. That's the whole necessity
of a hybridization program. Create ababy, place my consciousness in it.
Now I have a biological avatar.These beings have told us that's what they're
doing. In many cases. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm
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laughing because when you said that,it reminded me of Kevin Smith's Doug Agm
movie and you had those kids thatwere, you know, hockey players the
hockey sticks, like like, justI just see these demon children. I
mean that, Do you think that'sa real thing? Do you think that
that there are demons incarnate and humanbodies like that? Well, I think
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that's the nature of possession. Andthis is why again, and a lot
of people, you know, andI do get, can I get?
It kind of gets old of mebecause you know, I know the literature
and I know the Mesopotamian texts andthe origins of this this mythology and what
they do. Well, that can'tbe demons. And they riddle off something
they found on a bumper sticker anda Trader Joe's parking lot, and you
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know, nothing against that. Butif you're gonna make a point, not
you, I'm saying, you know, then especially on your for Twitter,
well you know, I know,demon It's like okay, yeah, you
know, unless we get down toit, and then it's like, wait
a minute, Wait a minute.They were doing this stuff forever. Yes,
they've been taking women and planting fetusesin their bodies for thousands and thousands
of years. We know that.It's okay, Now we have to move
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forward. Yep. Let's go prepre Embramic, you know, and and
go back six thousand plus right yoursIs there evidence of demons existing before that?
Because demons, for the most part, as we understand them, we're
speaking them, are within the theyou know, the paradigm of what the
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Catholic Church right has spread. Correct, So the earliest mythology regarding what a
demon was, it was never calleda demon. They were called rethatha,
and so in your Yugo ritic textthey were called the Repuumi. Shout out
to Caleb for going that earlier.There we go. Yeah, yeah,
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yeah, he follows my research,so he knows. Yeah, that's awesome.
I love it. But yeah,So basically that this is where like
the two arguments regarding what demons werekind of split. The first hypothesis was
that these were deceased ancestors that hadinstead of evolving after death, they mutated
and they used all of their knowledgethat they gained in life against the human
(33:08):
species, and so then you havetheir refinem in biblical antiquity. But what
were they It was consciousness. Itwas consciousness. And so what the authors
began to describe, it doesn't matterif you're talking about the Testament of Reuben,
the Damascus Document, I'm just goingto riddle off a bunch of whatever.
Essentially, what all of these peopleexpressed was, Okay, we were
(33:30):
just sitting down one day and thesebeing showed up, Well, what were
they doing? Well, it doesn'treally matter what religious tradition it was.
They were after babies. They wantedhybrid children, and so they would take
the seed from a man, Helloyou A for abduction, and then take
it to a woman, Hello youA for abduction, insiminate her with the
(33:51):
fetus, and then take the fetusfor themselves. Now it got so prevalent
that we find this ritual or thismodus operandi implemented during high sabbaths and through
esoteric rituals. Sorcerers begin to implementthese tactics as a way to progress throughout
(34:15):
life. As a matter of fact, it's called the red Right. It's
Becka here, it's called the GoldenBow, written by James Fraser, talks
about this where this phenomenon is soprevalent that ancient warriors, when they realized
that they were on the battlefield andthey died at a mortal wound, they
would dispossess their own body and placetheir consciousness in someone else. This began
(34:42):
this this whole mythology of possession.What is possession really, it's not just
the relocation of consciousness, it's thereplication of life. And so it kind
of bleeds its way into interesting.Yeah, I don't want to ramble.
I tend to ramble because usually that'sa new thought. I haven't thought of
it that way, the replication oflife. But it's replicating over top.
(35:06):
It's like you know the old VHScassette tapes. It's like you're just kind
of recording over top of someone else'sconsciousness. Absolutely, yeah, it's yeah.
So you see their pathologies change andit evolves throughout history where you know
what's called the oh lord, no, it was. But basically, what
they're going to do is they weretrying to possess statues. They were trying
(35:30):
to possess all of these different imagesthat would bear the resemblance of the aporiginal
soul. This is what their theory, their working theory was. That's why
the Apocryphon of John there was aCoptic manuscript. It says that these beings
were appearing to women in the imagesof their lovers. It is absolutely no
different than the UFO abduction phenomena.The pathology, the victimology is it's the
(35:57):
very same. And although though Iwould say that a lot of abduction experiences
aren't that, you know, alot are just being brought on a craft,
you know, having a kind ofa communion with with the other whatever
it is and and learning things,being shown things and positive messages and what
(36:21):
have you, and then and thenbeing brought brought back. I mean not
all of them. Yeah, Imean I'm talking about the hybridization program,
right, I mean I'm not sayinglike every abduction account you know, no,
no, Right. So that makesme wonder like, is there evidence
of of in demonology, of thesedemon entities, you know, visiting but
(36:42):
not doing the horrific acts that weare there other more benign interactions. Not
really, not really. Now here'shere's what's unique about it. This again,
this is why they classified demonology.Okay, that's negative. But in
angelology, absolutely a great events,great experience is taking place. But what
(37:02):
we've noticed throughout the years, evenwith doctor Callar Turner's book The Masquerati of
Angels, is that the phenomenon willclaim something, oh, this is all
good, it's all we're good,and meanwhile we're like, okay, well
what are you even doing. It'salmost like a way to just kind of
navigate around the real issues. Thisis why doctor call Turner's book The Mascurrative
Angels, one of her experienceers askedthem, are you angels? Yes?
(37:25):
We are? Why would you saythat, Okay, then what are you
doing? Yeah, but we're notangels like you've been taught. So there
are times and I'll get to anothercase study with ario masters work where the
phenomenon again, okay, ye'll bethat. Why well, well, okay,
so angels there are different interpretations ofwhat the what angels are. One
(37:51):
could you know, from a theologicalstudy, one can say angels are really
pretty neutral. They're not. They'remore like machines than they are human.
Like, you know, they don'thave the same kind of emotional range.
They're not necessarily evil or good.They're just kind of doing God's will,
(38:14):
right, So I mean that's likeone. And then there's the other vision
of that. They're they're glowing withbeautiful light and love and that sort of
thing. So I mean those arejust two in today's you know, religious
traditions, exactly two different ways ofinterpreting them. Yeah, it is.
And what I think is so fascinatingtoo. It gets back to the disincarnate
consciousness aspect of it. In theEugaritic texts from which the Hebrews got their
(38:40):
mythologies, especially about angels, theyhave what are called malakuma and Malakuba again,
where de Sea ancestors that when theydied, they evolved into this new
being and so that became the malachimin Jewish literature. This is why it's
so fair. This is why theNew Testament. I don't want to get
(39:02):
on it theology real quick, butI just say this real quick, and
I end that unto theology is welcomehere any day. Okay, cool,
cool, But this is why whenPeter's family give us Peter, they thought
he had died, and he's knockedon their door. They freaked out and
they said, this must be hisangel. It's his angel. Why why
would they think angel? His angellooked identical to him. So there is
(39:23):
this this consciousness aspect of their beliefthat does it does bode well the theory
that Okay, at least some ofthese people believed either angels or demons,
either one. They're potentially disincarnate humanbeings and there's other texts for them.
So what what does that mean then? Are these things doing evil deeds?
(39:52):
Well, here's the problem. Here'sthe problem. When again we get into
morality, what would we consider tobe evil? I mean, you know,
let me put it this way.People, Well, let me put
it within the theological context. Soare they doing the good work of you
(40:13):
know, God, God? No? I mean it's like, okay,
what kind of an angel would proba six year old? I mean,
let's be real, what kind ofan angel would pull you out of your
own body possess your own body?Not really biblical? So then so you're
you're definitely not You're obviously not aliteralist because, like I was saying earlier,
(40:36):
you know these it would seem thatthey would have to get some kind
of permission. This is where Iyeah, this is where I kind of
differ from a lot of the demonologiststhe field is that whatever we're dealing with
it is it's eclipsing the microcosm ofnot just demonology but your apology. And
(40:57):
again we're lacking the vocabulary articularly thenuanced position this phenomenon deserves. But whatever
we're dealing with, it has playedthe role of everything to us. That's
why I believe it's sigular intelligence.But let me get back to aroos and
evil. Like I said, itwill play a role, It will facilitate
that for you as a theatrical performanceuntil there's a skip, until their technology
(41:22):
fails or we're no longer willing toplay it, and then something takes effect,
and Steve Marion Barry Fitzgerald calls thisa mechanism of reveal where the phenomenon
says, oh, I can't playthat anymore? Can I? Nope?
And now you're in front of what'sreally occurring, what's really going on.
So in Aras and Evil, ittalks about it's which are literature, but
(41:42):
it talks about how these demons.I'm just going to say this, the
phenomenon would put on the mask ofa demon and it would abduct witches.
Now it's not just Nathaniel's Verba chair. Literally, they were called demonic flights
because these people really believe, Okay, yes, I'm flying with these beings.
And so these beings would fly themout to some lonely lover's lane or
(42:05):
some witches sabbat, and these beingswould copulate with them, and so you'd
have a group of them and youwould have what they in which I lecture,
they said, Okay, there werecorpses, there were demons, and
so a lot of times what wouldhappen is that during the copulation, the
technology that was being employed would failand for a fleeting moment, these people
(42:30):
would look around and realize that theseare not these aren't these are not demons,
and these are not corpses. Theywere being poked and product by metallic
objects, the sounds, metallic objectsthat were cold to the touch. Guess
what they were doing alan taking seedand implanting it into women. So there
(42:52):
is this weird protocola belief that sometimesthe phenomenon will induce us and do and
then it'll be a theatrical performance.Yeah. Yeah, see, then it
could be the inverse, right,because I mean, do you have people
who are religious saying these are aliensare actually demons and x y Z,
(43:12):
which we've kind of covered here tonight. But then the reverse can be said
that it's just that you're misinterpreting extratrestrails or ultratrest reels. It's a misinterpretation.
It's that they're not like any kindof divine entity. They're not some
kind of you know, byproduct ofangels or fallen angels or anything like that.
Right. Well, the problem isthat they're now starting to teach doctrine.
(43:32):
When you have your leading experiencer sayingthat raw is God or that fault
is God, or that's an egyptEgyptian deity is God, or or that
I got a phone call and nowI can go into churches and lay hands
on people. What that's doing whenpeople might not like it, but watch
this. What that's doing is blurringthe line between religiosity sure in this subject.
(43:54):
And that's when my I'm like,wait a minute, it's very strange.
I flew foul the miles to tellyou that a religious system, it's
very It's very again, this getsback to nature. There's something wrong with
the correct model, is what I'msaying, right, And that was name
is slipping my head. But hewas kind of friends with David Wilcox,
and there was those videos came outof a deposition he had and he had
(44:19):
to pretty much admit that all hisliterature was essentially fictionalized his alien encounter.
Anyone listening, maybe Angel, maybeyou'll remember who I'm talking about. That's
the name of slipping in my mind. But this happens where I think you
do have people who are actual experiencersand they come back and they changed the
message though that the human does,and that's kind of how that's also how
(44:44):
I interpret the Bible right, becauseno matter how many priests tell me that
it's the word of God, Iknow that flesh human beings wrote this down
first. They told each other stories. And we are a faulty you know,
(45:06):
We've got plenty of character defects,you know, to go around,
no matter what the age is.And so people can change the story a
little bit, you know, youcan embellish a little bit, You can
alter just enough so that it workswith your own, like you said,
your own morality, whatever that mightbe. And so I think modern day
(45:29):
alien abduction experiencers do that as well. They come back and they embellish and
they build a kind of a mythologythat wasn't necessarily there in the actual experience.
Correct. And this is another hypothesisthat some of my heroes and I
are pitching discussing. Why is itthat way? We know for a fact
(45:52):
now because of the case studies thatwhen an experiencer meets these beings or the
phenomenon manifest to them, that inmany cases the phenomenon can dictate what that
experience ever remembers and how they interpretthe memory. Which, again, how
much power does this intelligence have overus? When we have doctor Carla Turner
(46:15):
again saying Okay, this particular experienceor saw Ufo literally in her mind believe
that she gave her friend binoculars andpulled out the telescope. Telescope was in
the box. The next morning,she didn't even have binoculars, but the
phenomenon had given them that screen memoryin order to hide. Now here's a
(46:36):
question I would like everybody entertain.It's not what they're wanting us to remember
that matters. It's what they're wantingus to forget. And there are certainly
case after case that the case whereokay, yeah, yeah, this happened,
even to the point where where anassault occurred, and then when they
get back home we have to reinterpretit. It was a nice thing.
I liked it, or I agreedto it. Prehistory, free life in
(47:00):
what it seems to be. Andwe're getting very close to the end.
But I would suggest to everybody,this is what's happening when we've had in
the past, we've had them appearas Uncle Tommy and Darren Edna, but
many in many cases, we've snuffedthem out to where they will they will
zig zag when Darren Edna wouldn't haveor they would do something that's antithetical to
(47:23):
the historical record we have. Now. What's happened is the program has introduced
a new character to the game.We cannot vet the et A thousand different
origins, a thousand different explanations,a thousand different reasons why they're here.
They're raising consciousness. Where are at? Oh, we're there, we're here,
We're over there. We cannot vetthem. Now. What we're doing
(47:46):
is we're placing the weight and oftheir words on the amounts of phenomenon we
can document when they're present. Bringa camera. This means what they're telling
me is true. How do youknow that? Will we have it on
film? Well? Yeah, ifJohn d had them on film, sure
he believed they're right too, Sothey weren't then. And then you realized,
(48:09):
wait a minute, has this beena game the entire time? What
is actually occurring here the way?No, it's Corey, Corey good I
was referring to earlier. Oh yeah, yeah, I remember him. Yeah.
How many entities are they're out there? Or at least do you do
(48:31):
you think they know different types anddescriptions? I have no idea at this
point in my research. I knowit's going to be poo pooed by many
people who watch this. It's okay, uh oh, I don't really care
at this point. Yeah, sohere's the deal. In my mind,
I believe we're dealing with secial intelligenceand the parapsychological field. They're starting to
(48:52):
come to that same conclusion. Youknow when when Bigelow was on Skinwalker Ranch.
You know, they asked them,what did you experience? Every everything?
Possession, demons in succubi, aliens, ghosts. Why I have to
tell you as time goes on.Okay, so nineteen ninety nine, I
(49:15):
was about twenty twenty years old,I guess when the Matrix came out,
and it was like mind blowing,like oh my gosh, you know,
really stimulating intellectually, like the ideaof a simulation or that we're in some
kind of computer game. Right,but more maturely now I'm actually starting to
(49:37):
think that that maybe we are insome kind of simulation. You know that
one source that quote unquote creator correct, you know it is is the either
whatever's behind the simulation or the simulationitself is giving the commands and creating the
(49:57):
rules. And yah, because Ifeel I could explain a lot of this
stuff. It would whatever we're dealingwith. I mean, I think that
what we're encountering, even with theparanormals, a lot of times we're looking
at the reality that we are justa subculture, whatever this is. We
are a microcosm with a larger macrocosm. And sometimes we see an overlapping of
(50:21):
events, or sometimes the phenomenon willmake eye contact and then for that fleeting
moment we'll see, Okay, that'swhat it really was. Or you know,
like I said, which our literature, Bay, this was its not
a corpsuore deemon? What was it? The phenomenon putting on a theatrical performance
for them in order to garner consent, just to make things easier. And
(50:42):
that's what leads me to believe,you know, like if all of this
was love and light, why lie? Why would you deceive me? Why
would you appear? I mean,like, what is really going on here
is so the amount of exception.At a certain point in my research,
I was like, you know,if this was well and good, we
could comprehend it. Just tell us, don't don't have to light in me.
(51:06):
You don't want to pull me outof my body and make me question
if that was a theorial or not. So there's that it's weird. I
almost feel like it's not the ideaof love. I do feel like it
is a force unto itself, somethingthat is binding and is like in a
(51:27):
sense, I say this loosely theanswer to all our questions. But but
I but what I mean is thatif we're whether whether we're in a program
or whether the universe is like amultiverse and it's just one of gagillion,
gagillion, you know whatever versions ofreality that have ever existed and I never
(51:50):
will, and that we just gotlucky in this one with the physics that
it evolved so that love be camethe primary end goal, meaning it didn't
start necessarily like that, but itevolved that way, and that's now the
(52:12):
love is the end goal, that'sthe primary. So inherently it was neutral,
good, bad, evil, allthe same, didn't matter, the
rules didn't But then as time,as a program evolved and became more sophisticated,
love became another running program within theoverall system. And then that's why
(52:37):
it's like, how do we havethis wonderful idea of love and that this
is like the saving grace If that'strue, then why are there all these
bad things? I think for me, that's one way to kind of explain
it that love didn't come first,the universal one love? Okay, yeah,
like and a me by right,I mean it was a single cell
(52:59):
creature, right, and then itsplit off into other creatures and became more
complex, and then you had allthese other systems that built off right of
the single cells. So maybe it'ssomething like that, and then that's why.
That way you can kind of getaround, well, well what if
God? If God's good, thenhow can this be? Yeah? That's
and that's something I get a lotof from my evangelical I mean, I've
(53:20):
got family that couldn't care less whatI do and don't like it, you
know, so I get a lotof that from them, you know,
like, well, if it isGod, you know, it's like,
well, you know, I don'tknow. I think that again, that
knowing that these beings can make youfeel whatever they want to they know,
man, I mean there's cases wherethey knew when people were going to die
on that's right, Or how aboutthis one? They'll simulate a near death
(53:45):
experience and then threaten you that thatdoesn't fit and you know, it doesn't
even fit within the framework of whatI grew up in and so I had
to and this is me personally,I had to to just abandon the dog,
embrace the data, and to betruthful. I mean, it's much
more fascinating now, all right.So really going to get a couple of
(54:07):
questions in for you. So UFOTasks any long term percussion repercussions for people
who routinely engage with this phenomena,don't that's my thing. Don't look And
this is my perspective. We've gotto get out of the twenty first century
narrative of what this phenomenon wants usto believe it is. This is possible,
(54:28):
It's possible. We're only looking atits latest incarnation. If you want
to know it's pathology and victimology gothroughout history. It's the same thing.
In order to see beyond the veilanceof the mask, you have to look
at the literature. And I canjust tell you what I've been hearing lately
that yes, Bigelow's never going backto Skinwalker because look, it ruined a
(54:50):
lot of people's lives. It wasjust a bartering of technology where hey,
listen, pity us. Pity us, will build you an altar, We'll
give you worse ship, will pray. We'll do whatever you want us to
do in order to get, youknow, access to your technology. But
at what point and what are weleveraging? And so that's really where a
lot of my colleagues in our at. But the thing is, Okay,
(55:14):
we don't know what they are.We don't know what their intentions are for
us. We can only guess.We know what a lot of experiences are
remembering. But again, are thosescreen memories were first of all, were
they out of body or were theyend by? I mean, I can
keep going down this. It's agreat point, and we don't only have
(55:34):
so much time, So I'm wantto get this one last question. Sorry,
Caleb, He says, I realizedthese entities wear a mask in order
to deceive. What is Nathaniel's perspectiveon the list of demons in Isaiah thirty
four or fourteen, the desert creatures, wild Beast, the Satyr, Goat,
demons and liliths well liliths, Wellagain I call these protocols of belief
(56:00):
because it's not enough for them towear the mask. You have to believe
in it. You have to believethat that mask is actually an essential part
of their existence. So when Italk about Lilith, the Little Spirit Acadian
text, if Anetian literature, it'sconsciousness. It's that afterlife moment that leaves
the body, and that is againthe necessity for a hybrid baby. I
(56:22):
want a baby that looks like myapparition. So that's what I believe they
are. I believe that was oneof the earliest attempts to place a face
on the phenomenon. But I dobelieve that they and have themselves were programs
not people. All right. Well, Caleb also continues that could these be
the skinwalkers and the reptilian entities.Yes, we've had cases where they've all
(56:45):
been present and are doing the samethings to the same people. Or I
had one case where literally you're lookingat them and then the individuals said,
it turns and you see that therewas like just a cloak. You don't
really see the entity. It's justso, yeah, do you feel safe
doing what you do? Oh?I love it. I wouldn't do anything
(57:05):
else. Yeah, I love it. Man. People ask me, I
been do I get attachments? Now? I had a really bad X one
time. But that's about it.But I guess so, yeah, you
know, honestly, how much stagedid you learn? Yeah, yeah,
hopefully. Well, I mean,look, look, it's and that's that's
(57:25):
what's the interesting thing part about thisis is love, I do think is
at the center of healing and allof that, whether it's relationships and right
and and entities or demons. ButI can tell you, in the real
world what is probably unreconcilable as ademon or an alien abduction would be a
(57:50):
narcissist, you know, And andI and I noticed that there's very narcissistic
qualities to a lot of these evilencounters and entities. Yes, yes,
the access to knowledge that they haveis unprecedented. Yeah, you know,
in Prague they said that they hadcaptured a demon that would walk around telling
(58:10):
people when they were going to die. It's true, that's I mean,
that's a power triper there. Yeah, I think and people that know my
work, No, I've talked aboutthis before in lectures where they do have
almost the serr killer pathology. It'snot enough that I know that, and
this is very dark, but it'snot enough that I know that so and
(58:32):
so's father killed himself. I haveto let that person know I pull the
trigger. That is that's tapped inthe head, that's messed up, that's
totally mess up. Exactly if youcan leave us on a light note,
Ianny, what would it be?Not much? I think again, they're
(58:52):
playing by different rules because they're playinga different game. And I differ with
most humanologists. I think that whateverwe're dealing with has been manipulating us as
a species. But man, whata great what a great time I've had
with you, my friend, mynew friend from New York, and totally
jelly that you get to get somenice pizza and I get Dominoes. Next
(59:15):
time you come to New York,Yetta, let me know though, for
sure, get me some some somegood pizza. What is your favorite pizza
New York? By the way,just why, I to be honest.
I gotta be honest with you.Pizza is from New Jersey, So whoa
holy water, I'm just kidding me. Yeah, but yeah, well there's
plenty places, there's plenty good places. We'll find something for you. But
(59:38):
yeah, so where do people findout about your work? What you're doing?
So I'm all over YouTube. Ihave a YouTube channel it's Nathaniel Gillis,
and I have an Instagram page andI have a website. You got
too too much work to do.I just I'm very simple, god very
I'm a minimalist. So just followme on YouTube, follow me on Instagram.
(59:58):
That's it, all right, Daniel. Thank you so much, man,
Thank you sir. Have a goodone. Yeah you too, everybody,
thank you so much for joining ustonight. Thank you for all the
new faces, for joining us onMystic Lounge. I appreciate you. If
you want to hang around this channel, please your comment like I'd love to
hear your feedback on tonight's discussion.And of course, if you missed tonight's
broadcast, you can always recatch iton the X Network at eleven pm Pacific
(01:00:23):
time on Thursday nights and to am Eastern time on Friday nights Friday mornings.
So that's where we'll be special Thanksto Margie K and Race Hobbs and
until next time, list love s
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