December 19, 2023 • 68 mins
Joining me is one of this year'swinners of the IONS $100,000 Linda G. O’Bryant Noetic Sciences Research Prize: "Detecting Deviations from Random Activity as Indications of Consciousness Beyond the Brain" by Dr. Wolfhardt Janu, Dr. Vasileios Basios, Dr. Pier Francesco Moretti, Dr. Peter Merry, Dr. Annette Grathoff, and Professor Vicente Arraez These researchers propose that consciousness extends beyond the brain, interacting with the physical world beyond spacetime. Using Organized Random Event Generators (OREGs), they detect measurable disturbances known as non-local synchronicities. The “Ritual series” experiment explores ritual-related patterns, while the “ICU/Hospice series” connects OREGs to patient rooms, expecting synchronized data with significant events. This proposal provides insightful perspectives on the profound relationship between consciousness and the physical world, reshaping our understanding of existence.
https://noetic.org/blog/research-prize-winners/
Dr. Vasileios Basios is a senior researcher at the Physics of Complex Systems Department of the University of Brussels, conducting interdisciplinary research on self-organisation and emergence in complex matter as well as aspects of the foundations of complex systems. During his formative years he worked within the team of Ilya Prigogine at the Solvay Institutes for Physics and Chemistry in Brussels. He is interested on the history of ideas in science and their role in the transformation of science beyond the prevailing mechanistic world-view. He believes that never before has the need for a qualitative change in science been so apparent and pressing and that complexity studies have made such a radical change not just possible but imperative.
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https://noetic.org/blog/research-prize-winners/
Dr. Vasileios Basios is a senior researcher at the Physics of Complex Systems Department of the University of Brussels, conducting interdisciplinary research on self-organisation and emergence in complex matter as well as aspects of the foundations of complex systems. During his formative years he worked within the team of Ilya Prigogine at the Solvay Institutes for Physics and Chemistry in Brussels. He is interested on the history of ideas in science and their role in the transformation of science beyond the prevailing mechanistic world-view. He believes that never before has the need for a qualitative change in science been so apparent and pressing and that complexity studies have made such a radical change not just possible but imperative.
PLEASE HELP THE CHANNEL GROW ☕️ SUBSCRIBE, like, comment, and click the Notification Bell so you don’t miss a show. Thank you! https://www.youtube.com/mysticlounge
Please leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.
LINK TREE: https://linktr.ee/CoffeeandUFOs
HALF LIGHT documentary: https://tubitv.com/movies/678744/half-light
Check out other fantastic Un-X shows at https://www.unxnetwork.com/shows
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
You're listening to Mystic Lounge with AlanB. Smith rebroadcast on the ONEX Network
Thursdays at eleven pm Pacific Fridays attwo a m. Eastern. However you
(00:35):
are and whenever you are, welcometo mister Lounge from Allen B. Smith.
Joining me is doctor Fasilios Basios.He is a researcher in physical complex
systems University of Brussels and is oneof the recipients of the Institute of Noetic
Sciences Linda G. O'Brien Award forGroundbreaking Research and Consciousness. We have had
(00:58):
a number of ions guests fairly recently, and the reason for that is because
I'm particularly interested in consciousness studies andthey're doing some really interesting work in that
field. So I'm honored to haveour guests on tonight. If you miss
any of these shows, you canalways catch the rebroadcast on the UNEX network
(01:19):
at two a m. Eastern Centertime Fridays or eleven pm Pacific time on
Thursday night, and of course thepodcast will drop wherever you listen to all
your podcast platforms, wherever you listento your podcasts, and yeah really appreciate
if you could like comment you know, give a review and subscribe on the
(01:42):
YouTube channel because all of that organicallyreally helps the podcast and the channel grow.
So I appreciate everyone who's supported usso far and all of your continued
support. I really really appreciate allright, So let's bring on our guest,
Vasilio. How are you, hi, hi eah? How are you?
(02:02):
Very good? Very good? Thankyou so much for for being on
right now. The owner enjoys allmine. Thank you. So this is
early in the morning as far asdoing your recording goes. For me,
I'm usually a night night owl withthe show I have. I have a
slight, slight bit of a delayin my cognitive abilities until the coffee.
(02:27):
Really speaking of consciousness. But howare you? You're about what seven hours
ahead? And this is just afterlunch, which again it is yes the
time, so we are both inthe goods relaxed mood for yeah, I
mean we need we needs yesterday inthe United States, we really do.
(02:51):
See. I'm I'm originally from Greece. I have been transplanted to northern climates
mm hmm. And which climate doyou prefer? H Actually I love the
Belgian climate because it's very variable.So they say this summer wasn't on Wednesday
(03:14):
this year, so it's like youknow, never, you never know what's
going to happen. And it's andin Greece it's too hot now, especially
now with the climate change and allthat. This the last summers are very
very hot. But I yeah,yeah, I think the future migration for
a lot of people is going tobe north into the northern countries. It
(03:37):
makes sense. It's it's going toget cooler, it's going to be get
warmer. And so yeah, everybodyis surprised, but that this is happening.
People have been talking about that.So let's talk about your your work.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your your history as a as
a scientist and how it led toyour working with ions. It's it's not
(04:01):
a glorious history. I mean,it's just just I always loved physics from
from from little boy. I alwayswanted to be and and thank god I
had the right input and and impetusof from from my family and to go
and study whatever I wanted that becausethey believe that if you do something that
(04:27):
you really enjoy, that makes youhappy, it makes you not. Success
is not the world. There hereis more kind of good with your nice
feeling nice with yourself, and feelinga purposeful life no matter whether you were
successful or not in the eyes ofso anyway, So it's my purpose,
or one of my purposes to studynature. Later came the other purpose that
(04:56):
that kind of emerged to the tostudy the nature of this study why I
am studying nature? And with thisawakening and self reflection came kind of as
your title of mystic lounge, hasit a little more kind of mystical dimension
(05:17):
or or what we call it themystical dimensions that it went beyond science and
reached out to spilled out metaphysics,philosophy and all that. Yeah, it
does, does mystical? Can thatnot also be science? Uh? If
(05:41):
we start from the beginning and andsorry for my Greek perversion of with words.
Mystic comes from something that cannot betold, I like, uh I
can it's it's it's a secret mysticmysterious? Yes, yes, uh so.
(06:04):
The the secret is of two kinds. One is a secret that you
know, you and I there andwe don't change nobody else with or a
group of people conspire to to electsomeone for president or whatever. You know,
So this kind of secret, whichis interpersonal secret. And there is
the other secret, which is asecret the taste of coffee that we just
(06:27):
had. I know what it isbecause I had also a sip of coffee
right now, But I cannot reallyget into your experience, into your own
coffeeiness, the experience of you know, the experience of coffeineness or so this
is a secret. Also, it'sa subjective secret. And that was taught
in the mysteries when when people wereattending the mysteries there was a song.
(06:53):
It was not a dogma, itwas not a narration. It was a
theater with all the heating power ofthe theater. But yeah, in that
sense, in that sense, subjective, yes, can be scientific. Right,
so if we unlock a mystery,then that secret that once was becomes
(07:20):
fact or science. We can wecan look at it from from an objective
point of view. Gravity for instance, right we we we have a a
good idea of how it we know, we know how it functions, but
we don't technically know what it is. So it's both at the same time.
(07:44):
H nobody, nobody knows what gravityis. Re like like we don't
know any anything about I mean notanything but to do we don't really know
in the sense that we can definefundamental, fundamental substances or fundamental concepts because
(08:05):
the fundamental they don't. They don'tfoundation rests on the ground, does not
rest anything or anything any other foundation. So if gravity, because it spacetime,
it's fundamental. The split started inWestern mind around the end of the
(08:26):
Renaissance in sixteen hundred, and itwas a dramatic event that we separated.
Galileo was forced to separate the subjectivesecondary qualities with the primary objective qualities.
So objective it was what it couldbe measured analyzed by, especially with the
(08:48):
instruments of physics, or reduced tosome analysis with instruments that they show you
something physical in the screening numbers something. So that would be the experimental art
sciences, and then all the othersciences art humanities were delegated to subjective experiences,
(09:09):
not really you know something that atthat moment they thought that they could
reduce it to primary qualities, andthe second equalities were delegated to artists,
bishops, and so they would separatephysics from religion because that was a traumatic
experience from the West. I thinkit's the only civilization that had this class,
(09:35):
many people were better at the stakewith with first of the great Dano
Bruno, who paid the price willinglyto change the world, to bring back
the Pythagorean doctrines, so to speak. Back in science, Galileo retreated and
(09:56):
said, okay, guys, Idon't want that. Let's talk about primary
qualitist thing that we can measure inthe in the lab. Yes, and
and uh. But it didn't.It started very kind, very It's basically
he was saying something that you couldsee, something that is just tangible,
(10:18):
yes, because he thought that thisway he will escape dogma and theology.
Now although you know the famous scenewhere he asked the bishops in Padua to
look through his telescope, and thebishops no, no, no, no,
we don't need to look. Weknow what it is, you know
you, I mean, the Biblehas everything, so we don't want to
(10:39):
look. In a sense we havewe are living in a Galileo moment this
time now, because we all havesubjective experiences. People are having a lot
of experiences that cannot be reduced tomodern science, like near that experience the
(11:00):
stage of consciousness, either by drugsor by practices breathing whatever, and these
experiences are not neuroscience seeing things thatLatino surely, So this is we're cat
(11:24):
fans on this, on this evenif there's not a cat on the on
the on the show, it hasto you have to put it in by
She used to come up on thedesk more often. Now she just kind
of circles around below realizing. Sosorry for that. And but I I
(11:50):
guess it has a point because wealso tend to to to see everything that
is not human and has this divine, apocalyptic, biblical whatever, how you
we want to say consciousness as asa machine, so animals would be in
their eyes of sciences machines famously declaredby the card. So that's why you
(12:16):
can experiment without with them without askingtheir opinion, or you can eat you
can eat them alive, or youcan do whatever you want, thanks the
card. So although he loves hisdogs anyway, right, there's there's a
lot of that even today. Right, it's you know, there are certain
mammals that we absolutely love. Itwould be horrified if they're hurt, but
(12:37):
other mammals are good. It doesn'tmatter right there. And also and also
I mean my wife has been avegetarian. I'll try to be as more
as possible. But then we realizeone day that we are feeding our cats
cat food, which is other animals. Yeah, this is like, this
(13:00):
is this is a you have aninternal conflict about this. I really do,
as they say, analyze that exactly. Yeah, it's living, it's
living with the true dichotomy. It'syou know, having two belief systems simultaneously
opposing belief systems at the same time, which is something that we have to
(13:24):
learn to live with. If.Yeah, because we're encountering complexity at many
levels and at any scale. Andthere you have, as you said,
duality like like subjective, objective,measurable, non measurable. Many things that
are very important, the things thatreally count cannot be measured. They cannot
(13:45):
be counted. And the things thatcan be measured are irrelevant. I mean
most of the time, can canbe irrelevant. Why irrelevant to one that?
But but I mean you can measureeverything. You can measure the thickness
of the seat of a paper,You can measure how many flies passed by
(14:09):
the last moment that we have beentalking. Does it make sense just because
you measure something if you don't havethe theory and the and the background,
the conceptual conceptual receptacle to to toput it in receptacle, sorry, to
put it in and examine it.The the facts are passing through the net
(14:37):
of consciousness without registered you need andthe theories a net. The theory is
a net that can catch ut outsome part of the world and contain it
and make you analyze it thing aboutit. But it's not the whole thing.
The ocean is there. We justgot a little grasp related to the
(15:07):
well. I guess some might callalternative work that you're focused on the mind
of science and scientists. It issometimes flexible and sometimes extraordinarily stubborn. And
recently I had read an article abouta year and a half ago, I
think, I can't I can't remember, suggesting that the age of the universe
(15:31):
might be much much older, butno one was talking about it. And
then there's some articles that said no, that that was like a misinterpretation of
something, and I thought, oh, okay, I guess I made a
mistake. But then recently there wasa couple of physicists and astronomers that had
come out and said, based onsome of the imaging from James Webb telescope.
(15:54):
There seems to be a contradiction,not a contradiction, but a challenge
to the age of the universe basedon the where the distance of the galaxies
and the color of their infrared light, and so they're saying that based on
that, if we go on thatdata, it's conceivable the universe is something
(16:17):
like twenty six point seven billion yearsold, not thirteen zero point five.
And I found it interesting that thesewere legitimate scientists, and I saw a
couple of articles go out on thesubject, which doesn't Newton normally happen unless
there is some legitimate legitimacy to theclaim. And then it went silent again.
(16:44):
And I'm not hearing anything else aboutit. But what's your take on
that? I would ask, ofcourse Bology's friend Bennett Carho, that I
trust his opinion because I cannot haveall the theoretical background and that to analyze
that. But as a phenomenon,it's very familiar phenomenon, I mean in
(17:07):
scientific discourse. Because I was blessedto have joined the Salve Institute in the
early days of my career in workingwith a group of eliab Becaus in the
Nobel Price in physical chemistry and andalso kind of founders of complex descigence.
(17:30):
So they're there are people where youhad a lot of Nobel Price people coming
in and joining discussions and all that. Now the correct theory is my theory.
This is the ultimate criterion of truth. That I felt a little kind
of disappointed because I would see allthese brilliant minds, but they were there
(17:52):
were morally drafts. They were kindof you know, little me, me,
me, me me, And thatplays a big role in science.
Me and money and my money andmy theory, my project. So I
don't want to blame all my fellowscientists, but science is science is moving
like a sleepwalker, and sometimes weassume things that we don't really realize that
(18:15):
we have assumed. We make astep and we fall. We make another
step and we are good and wecontinue like that. And yes, this
is part of science, and thisis fun. If you don't cling to
your own little objectification of the ofthe universe and think that this is the
absolute truth. And if this isnot true, I am doomed and stupid,
(18:37):
and nobody will talk to me,and nobody would love me. That
that has to change. This isthe Ethess of Science that this is destructive
for the moment, and I'm sorry, I just want to say, I
think you tapped into something that hasn'treally come up. Oftentimes, the argument
for why scientists don't take on morefringe scientific studies is because they're afraid to
(19:07):
lose the funding. But I thinkthat you just tapped into something that maybe
speaks a little bit louder than that, is that there's an emotional component that
perhaps they want to be liked.Right, everybody wants to be liked,
especially by your peers. And soif you feel that you'll be ostracized and
you'll lose friendships and lose relationships becauseof your ideas in your novel thinking,
(19:36):
then that from an emotional psychologically it'sscary. And so it may not just
be about money. For some scientistsand scientists, it might just be a
social thing. Salary is important.You can't you can't chat around the cafeteria
if you don't have a job.Yeah, yeah, exactly. Your research
(19:57):
for for Ions, it was youand some other scientists. Of course,
you won the award for detecting deviationsfrom random activity as indications of consciousness beyond
the brain. What, Yes,what is beyond what's beyond the brain?
(20:18):
Where where does that study take you? As we have been just touching the
subject of of of of science asa social activity with French funds, with
French funds, fun and enemies andwhatever it goes together with human nature.
(20:42):
Science doesn't happen in a vacuum.There is a continue continuation, and we
have to acknowledge the fact that weare always building on the work of someone
of the generations, not only oneor two people, but of generations behind
us, and we leave some workfor the relation to come, maybe the
(21:06):
most difficult part of the work anyway. So what happens is that historically,
this this this line of the startstarted by analyzing phenomena that defy the hypothesis
that consciousness is a product of thebrain, like bile is a product of
(21:30):
our digestive system. So this iswhat again trying to reduce, like Galileo
and Fans, the subjective to theobjective. We thought that we are complicated
machines, a little more complicated thananimals, may be blessed with the divine
spark like the card. So we'redifferent than animals and we have connection directed
(21:52):
with God. So this thing thatwe call consciousness is just a response to
stimuli, and that with the behavior. This became known as the behavioral aspect
or the behavior school in neuroscience.So they thought that if you put if
you put enough electrodes on the brain, you can understand how the person feels.
(22:15):
They can even advertise machines that candream, that can that can record
your dreams and you can see themagain. Yeah right, that that's interesting.
M okay, well, I meanif you imagine that you can record
some sort of imagery that your brainis generating, it does give the impression
(22:36):
impression that the brain is nothing morethan a biological machine, which is not
which is not. Well, yousee when the card was saying that everything
includes da cats, dogs, whatever, are complicated machines. The other underground
(23:00):
mystical current was advocated by people likeLeibnitz and Newton, the great hidden sorcerers
of modern science. So Leiblnis hassaid something that really struck me and for
me resolved this that he was talkingabout the monad with the monod. For
(23:22):
libniits is the Pythagorean monod, whichis the career of the soul, the
one that reflects the whole the partthat reflects the whole. So it's a
reflection of God, the contraction ofGod or whatever. So that was the
theology of Pythagonianism that Leibnitz put itin a in a very strict, very
nice logical scheme, updated updated forhis time. And there he said something
(23:48):
that struck me. He said that, of course automata. He did not
call the machines automata. Living beingsare automata, but they are divine at
automata, Whether because the divine automotonis automoton up to the last part of
it, down to infinity. Whethera one made machine is a finite automaton
(24:14):
that has to stop somewhere, Soyou have clocks and rings that will work
together, but at a certain scaleit stops. But a divine machine,
a divine automaton, it's not automoton. It says that it's infinitely down,
cannot be reduced to any mechanis there'salways something like a fractal kind of thing
(24:36):
in our well, yeah, Buddhistshave talked about this, Yes, well,
Live Needs was very in and ingeneral the Pysagonians in the West,
we're very kind of you know,in tune with Iste Buddhism, Benitching and
all that. But again it wasnot uncovered until the seventies that we thanks
(24:57):
to Frizers Capra than his book TheTauel Physics, which creates like a consciousness
expansions in my generation. Yeah,so, yes, these truths are kind
of intuitively grasped but not academically expressed. And definitely they are not good for
(25:22):
making bombs and refrigerators and things thatyou can sell in the market. But
some scientists would make the argument thatthe age of philosophy is over, philosophy
is not science. What's your takeon that that that sort of attitude.
Oh, yeah, the absence ofmetaphysics is a metaphysical position. If you
(25:51):
deny that there's nothing beyond the physical, it is a metaphysical position. So
this is another kind of metaphysics.Yes, it's another kind of philosophy.
So declaring that philosophy is dead becausemy philosophy has one doesn't say anything about
(26:11):
the absence of philosophy. Well yeah, but but philosophy you can't isn't a
methodology for discovering truth or facts?Yes? Right, So is there still
a place for philosophy and science?There's definitely, and only another places it's
(26:38):
a it's in need, it's it'san oxygen for science. There was.
The last attempt to eliminate philosophy wasin Vienna cycle, where in the thirties
or so you had this positivism thatthat as you said that that or logical
(27:00):
positives that they try to reduce everythingto work very well defined logical propositions,
so truth could be reduced to akind of proof system. That happened,
and that stopped by the great workof Gedel who used Kurt Gedle that he
(27:21):
turned the thing on it said sayingthat based on on on the Raster's paradox
that says that this sentence I'm paraphrasinghere, that this sentence is not true.
So if you accept that it's nottrue, it is true. And
(27:41):
if you accept that it's true,it's not true. So you get this
Gadeli and nonlinear thinking. This isa kind of complexity at work. Then
you he opened up and this issomething that the philosopher's zeno of In the
old times, you see platonic dialogswith these kind of tricks like the a
(28:03):
kids and the talk to us thatwho is running faster or the arrow that
never reaches its target. So youhave this nonlinear thinking of reflecting the logic
on itself that creates a paradox.And exactly is exactly what we said that
(28:23):
the philosophy, the denies philosophy isstill a philosophy. Science that says that
I don't need philosophy. It's aphilosophical stance. So that's what they wanted
to do, and it has beendestroyed by Curt Gedul. Forever we cannot
we don't know how to absolutely formalizedtruth. We have to live with that.
(28:48):
We have to live that our definitionsare partial and can never be complete
and cohere. And at the sametime, can you click your microphone down
just a tad bit? Yes,there no sorry, So okay. So
speaking of philosopher, So Socrates,according to the Plato, you know,
(29:10):
I saw him himself more as themidwife, right. He didn't think of
himself as as a particularly brilliant personcoming up with new ideas. His function
was to help usher in new ideas. You now, to get other other
people, other smart people, tothink about things, yes, or to
(29:33):
discover our own idea. So eachone, each one has has to find
what is all about by for forhimself, and that it is just humidity
and humidity and the compassion and livingtogether. It's we don't have to fight
(29:55):
for opinions or or positions. Thiscan change. What doesn't change is us
as as human beings. I preferto change my position and change the population
that doesn't agree with my position.Otherwise we become talents and hitlers, you
know, because whoever doesn't agree withus off goes to housewitch. I mean
(30:18):
exaggerating, but no, no,not exaggerating, but not exaggerating, you
know, you know what, Sothis this, although I think that in
that case there is quite a bitof dishonesty in their conviction. It was
a convenient, convenient conviction, notnecessarily an intellectually honest one about about the
(30:44):
people. And I think that wesee that too. I think in science
as well. Right, yes,I have a kind of passion for history
of science. And now I amreading about bell Armine, the guy who
condemned to done Bruno and also wasa chief investigator holy investigator of the church
(31:06):
and suit uh four who was prosecutingGalileo or GALILEI. And the guy has
some notes and some kind of kindof reflections, and he's really concerned about
what is truth. I mean,he believed that he had to burn alive
Bruno and he and the heretics,and that theners would destroy the fabric of
(31:30):
the church. For him was reallya compassion, adoration of Christ, adoration
of love and all that. Soit is kind of you know, we
are grasping and we make love anobject and an institution, and in science
(31:51):
and religion becomes an institution, acrystallized structure, and we're grasping on this
crystalized crature and forget the experience theobjective. How does it feel ready to
love? Does it feel like killingpeople when you love? I don't think
that anybody in love could kill?And how does it feel to be a
good Christian and follow Christ? Doesit mean that you have to have a
(32:14):
strict, true institution, punishment,hell, whatever. So we we were
kind of getting blocked in our ownmental jails or whatever. Cells. Yeah,
but don't know just what as yousaid, Yeah, he was general.
I mean, he was convenient formany many other bishops. For him,
(32:35):
he was struggling after his last hisdeathbed, whether he did the right
think or not. And he wastrauggling yeah, I should have condemned because
his soul now rests with God thathe can redeem himself. Otherwise he would
go around being a sinner. Andhe had to punish the scientists because doing
things that people will be scared toknow that earth goes around the son will
(33:00):
be creating social chaos, and weshould take care of our fellow citizens not
to become lunatic. So in regardto that, the conception of the soul,
let's say, according to the CatholicChurch or religion in general, is
(33:22):
that similar to the non corporeal consciousnessthat you're studying. Kind of yes,
I mean yes, I prefer tocall it monard like libr but that's my
my again, Pysagoian perversion. It'sI don't. I don't cling to that.
(33:44):
You can call it many names,and it will be called many names
because everyone can bring something different.It is unspeakable, so you can speak
of it in many ways if youlike it's sold becau fine if you like
it. Energy source the guy thathas that that put me in into this
(34:06):
work. Bob John and Brenda Dunedone, sorry pronouncial the French way better
than and Bob John from Princeton.They used to call it the Source to
give it a more kind of scientificscience fiction kind of It could be the
(34:29):
I don't know, the great spaghettiis that it is a religion of monster.
But that's a but that's from likea philosophical atheist. Yeah, to
do that is actually designed to disproveand Mark Yeah. Well, another very
(34:50):
pleasant concept was is the money tothe great spirit of nature of the American
Indians, which lovely or the taulor Zeus, the I mean, the
ancient Greek creator or whatever you nameit. It would change anyway, I
(35:10):
mean, right, But there's butthere's a difference between and we can talk
more about your your work, butthere's a difference between studying consciousness and whether
it can be detected beyond the bodythat and something that survives you know,
(35:31):
post mortem, Yes, definitely.So where where are you on that If
you've detected that consciousness expands beyond thebrain matter. Now, now what's your
interpretation of that as far as itbeing something that's strictly attached to our bodies.
(35:57):
Yes, First of all, myexperience and because I have I have
my share of losses in life fromearly age, it is it is deeply
as true as as the coffee thatyou drink. This kind of secret that
(36:20):
love is much more stronger than death. If something is stronger than death is
love and our relationship with with departedpeople. And this is not it sounds
poetic, but for some people it'snot. I mean, it's it's it's
(36:43):
something that you you you have toto either feel it or not. It's
it's like again, tasting it's asecret. It's it's tasting coffee. If
you don't have it. If ifyou never taste coffee, then then you're
missing out. Yes, yes,yeah, or not? Maybe not because
it may its bitter sweeter. Maybethat's why I like coffee. It's a
(37:08):
it's a reflection of life. It'sit could be bittersweet, but it keeps
it going. Right. So you'reyou're talking about love. Where did you
come up with this idea that thatlove is so powerful that it's not an
idea, it's not the idea,it is fitting from my personal experience.
Now, setting that apart before wego further, let's what what is your
(37:32):
personal experience? Then it's it's havinghaving lost my my my father at fifteen
and then my later in life,my my mother and my two brothers very
shortly after my mother. So itwas it was and saying from my from
(37:58):
my catch and my wife and mywork that that what I meant more was
I assumed you had some kind ofexperience where you felt our presence many many.
It was not something like a revelationthat's lasted one. It's a continuous
coabitation, let's say. But isn'tthat more of just your mind remembering them
(38:22):
and incorporating it into your conscious thoughts. Maybe yes, But the thing is
that let me let me feeloshiphize alittle on that too, because it's something
I told. It's something that Icannot communicate otherwise. I mean, I'm
(38:43):
not a great poet or an artistto express myself like that, But I
think, like I put myself mymind together and think I have been trained
to think saying that something which isupset that from our measurements. But yet
the termins are measurements, and thisis consciousness or what we call constumes or
(39:07):
the monod or whatever it is,like like a container or or a boundary
that that that it's not there,but has implications of what's happening inside the
boundary. It's a constraint that determinesthe dynamics at the lower level. So
(39:30):
we have the dynamics at the physicallevel, but there's something else on top
of that which is not necessarily itis quite emerging with the substrate. So
it's not off the substrate, butit lives with the substrate. So let's
say that you are boiling rice.You boil rice, you have around thing
(39:54):
around pot, and you discovered thathave hexagons. The rise falls in hexagons.
Right, These hexagons are are notpart of the equation of motion of
its rice, little rice. Itis part of the boundary that keeps the
whole system together plastic gradient in temperature. So the whole configuration, the cost
(40:15):
strain of a complex system makes thecomplex system show patterns like the hurricane patterns.
Right, the hurricane is around thepoint where the point is not part
of the hurricane because doesn't move.It's zero velocity. But still if there's
(40:36):
not if you cannot create this pointby the boundaries about the other things that
move around, you don't have ashielding. That's a good analogy. Yeah,
you are a good communicator, Ithink. So this is something like
us. I mean, we areyou know, atoms that can change every
seven, twelve, seventeen years dependingon the organ and sells DNA. Everything
(41:01):
come and goes, but something thatkeeps them together, which not necessarily a
guy inside of me pulling the strings. It is something which is from outside.
It's like a shrill in the inthe ocean. You feel at the
center, but the center is becauseof the boundaries. So we feel that
(41:23):
we have this ego, but weare part of the big skin scene.
So and I would say is brahma. So if so, what we are
is not part of space and time. Where we go is not part of
space and time, and love isnot part of space and time. And
(41:47):
in my little philosophical music is thattherefore love is not part of the space
and time drama. And because it'san emotion, it's a relation, it's
it's it's it's it's a relation.It's not part of the of the substance.
(42:12):
So that makes me think that itis stronger than the pattern that it
creates. We can measure brain activityaccording to emotions, so we we we
have have a way of charge chartingwhen someone is experiencing a particular emotion.
(42:37):
So just so you're saying, justbecause we can can measure that activity.
That doesn't mean it is bound tojust the brain activity that So are you
saying it's sourced from somewhere else where? Is that coming from? Another alternative
(42:57):
explanation is that there is a sourcewhich somehow we are getting in touch with
that in the same way that youknow the radio receiver. Yeah. I
think that there's something interesting about love. You know, it just always it
always comes up, you know thatthat particular word. But of course,
like all languages, that word hasdifferent inferences and and and variations of its
(43:24):
meaning. Right, It's be likeI love chocolate. Well, that's not
the same as you know, Ilove my wife. It's that's a very
different use of the word. AndI think we're all pretty much smart enough
to understand that. But there isthis kind of universal grand love that that
(43:46):
that I think you're speaking of too, that it is beyond boundaries, it's
beyond judgment. That there's something there'ssomething mystical about that at And that's that's
why that's why I definitely sync withyou, because I feel like there's something
(44:07):
almost intangible about it. No matterhow many definitions one tries to put on
love, it doesn't really encompass thatexperience. Yes, and you know that
there's a night for me. Ithelped me because humor also or serious humor.
(44:37):
It's it's helpful in that respect becauseit's part of love and the creative
game. Isaac Asimo, the greatguy. I love him and I love
his his novels. At one moment, and you see, these are the
moment that sometimes you get this glimpseof life. Then you stage four.
(45:00):
I remember I was in a busin Greece undergraduates, and I was going
to do to the university thing,and I had a little pocket book and
there Asimov says, uh, theyare encountering Earth, the fourth planet of
(45:22):
the Solar system. And uh,this this extraterrestial being saying that they are
in on their way of the civilizationhas not reached the galactic level to connect
(45:42):
with them. You see, theyonly have discovered the universal law of laugh
in it in its material form,and they call it Newton's gravity. There
are other forms and other causalities thatare not part of Newton's or Einstein's gravity.
(46:04):
So we have a very good understandinga grasp on Newton's gravity. Things
that keeps things together yes, wesee it, we observe it. It's
it's easy to see, right,yes, and and and also in Einstein
is a relations that that keeps thingstogether, like space and time relations.
(46:24):
So it's it's a fabric of relationalqualities that makes think attract. In your
research, have you seen any relationshipbetween time and consciousness? Not in my
research as in the things that Ipublished for for Living Now, but in
(46:49):
my research as independent researchers. Yes, so is consciousness then is it still
tied to our idea of linear timeor does it definitely conconsciousness as we understand
it now, it starts with birthand end with death, and it has
(47:12):
to be some somehow attached to amachine, I mean the machinery, the
human human being, animals. Somepeople talk about bacterial consciousness. They are
kind of the pan psychists of thatthey are coming back back from with with
the ghost of the Psagoreans and Brunoto hunters from the past because we excluded
(47:37):
them. So they are kind ofthe last resort of materialism. But still
even if if they are pan psychistsor pan anthist, is a difference in
the sense that the pan andent thestis that people believe that everything is you
know, something, a source oflove, whatever that per mats everything.
(47:58):
Where psyche is also can be connectedwith the body, and psyche soul starts
with a body and with the body. This is like more conventional way of
thinking in the last resort of Thereare many many places in neuroscience and even
books written on the fact that wedo not have a one to one correlation
(48:22):
between our brain activity and subjective experience. This is standard, that's why they
call it. And you correlate andnot cause. Course. Yeah, we
have had near death experiencers who've hadcomplete you know, death of brain activity
(48:45):
and heart come back and have memoriesor have seen things in an operating room
or what have you that they shouldn'thave otherwise been able to perceive. And
then you have some very long youknow, term deaths like a thirteen minutes
or something like that, where there'sor longer where there's no brain activity and
(49:07):
someone's been able to been brought broughtback to debt life if that's the case,
and then there there they are themselvesagain, does that mean this external
or extended consciousness it stuck around,it hung around the body, or like
a magnet, it just came,you know, because because I wonder these
(49:31):
people, you know, bodies,you know, my wife and I were
talking about this recently, these cryogenicallyyou know bodies and stasis. If one
hundred years from now, two hundredyears from now, science has a way
to you know, bring them backto life in full capacity without cellul or
brain damage and all this what youknow, what kind of mind do you
(49:55):
imagine that that that will be thatperson will be screwed up? Yeah,
imagine you wake up in the aehandred years from now. That's not the
best experience, totally. Yeah,okay, but well it might be not
(50:17):
just be that, but maybe they'repsychopaths too. I mean, if if
if you see, I mean,if it's not something that cannot be done.
But we want to sleep for twohundred years, that's a nightmare.
Some people do. Yeah, youknow, I there are people who have
been in comas for twenty years andthat that's traumatic. But you know what,
(50:39):
the human mind is really adaptable,and and you know there's probably a
period of uh, grieving after wakingup, grieving the past, grieving that
all those memories are only with younow and there's no one to really share
that with. But then there's theadventure of life. And I imagine most
(51:02):
people who were willingly going into crowdgenic stasis there they have the mind that's
that's able to adapt. Yeah,exactly as you said. Next next the
town in uh in Belgium. Herethere's a comic, big, big Comma
(51:23):
clinic and it has been they're verysuccessfully in identifying comma states and helping people
come back from comma and in themain I had several discussions with them and
kind of collaboration that again. DeSmet was the name, the great professor
(51:45):
there, and he was we're talkingall the time. He was one of
the big shorts of the Solve crowd, and he was telling me all the
time that you cannot the levels ofanaesthesia, and he liked to have the
icebreak and he said, we arelike an iceberg, and you can have
(52:07):
an anaesthesia which is down at theroots of the icebreag and you cannot feel
anything on top, but you arestill in the ocean. And that was
the feeling that he was describing fromhis patients. He never had an experienced
himself of this ocean, but hesaid, I don't have it. I
have it only in my meditation,in my philosophical music, or when I
(52:28):
listen to music or whatever. ButI know that everybody in my patient.
The way they describe is that wego down in an abyss, and this
abyss is there. It's not somethingthat does not exist. It's not in
existence. It's a different form ofundifferentiated existence, but it's there. And
(52:49):
then they describe themselves as they goup and wake up from the coma or
whatever, as climbing a mountain orthe horizon becoming more clear. Here suddenly
there is a horizon before there wasnow horizon. Suddenly there is something that's
just up and down, and sothey have this experience of climbing up a
mountaintop or an icebreag according to thismyth. He liked this metaphor, and
(53:12):
he also liked that because of Youngalso used this metaphor of the subsconscious and
cursus. Now so, but younever there are people who are in deep
combin. They can see everything inthere. They can hear everything they have
loved once grieving and telling them tocome back, or telling them just the
stories of the family. You know, they just sit next to them and
say how the boy went to schooland how the girl had them a great
(53:36):
exam passing and blah blah blah,you know. Just yeah, So that
means that there's some imperceptible sensor ofsome sort something that's picking up the data
around them and bringing it into theconsciousness. But it shouldn't be because the
brain is shut down in such away that it shouldn't be able to memory,
(54:01):
right. And the strange thing isthat he might be able to see
the or feel something about relatives andfamily and they can operate and they can
amputate, and yeah, he doesn'treally realize that he has been cut half
(54:21):
open, you know. And oneof the team, I should not say
the name, but one of theteams that we all want the price,
and I highlight that we all wantthe price. Bolth was the leader on
this because he believed that we cando it, and we did it.
But but in our team we havea different ethers and and and and kind
(54:44):
of more collegial fun so I cannotdifferentiate. Some of us have written something,
other have written other stuff. Otherpeople have just written one sentence,
but very important. So we areall part of that. So it's it's
not it's not that it's my Iwork. Although it's my work because it's
(55:04):
my team. Of course, everybodysays the same. He's not a leader,
you know, everybody would say myteam, one of our team.
Then, so he had any experience, and he's a physicist, and we
have talked about that extensively over theyears, and he had this near death
experience that marked him. And healways says that once you learn how to
(55:34):
fly, you cannot live with yourhead looking down on the ground anymore.
And and and although and he goeson with with very many explanations, his
explanation is that and I agree withthat theoretically and experientially from meditation, not
(55:55):
from near the experience that you oftenyou go to this other reality which is
totally other, no space, notime, but there there's still it is
still relational. There's something there thatthat connects you things. And that is
what I think that the mystics andthe sages would call love or universal love.
(56:20):
This is something that connects us witheverything. Yeah, yeah, there's
there's the Really, I really,really truly believe that there's a something like
that, like a universal love withthe capital U, capital L. Some
some some people may call that GodI. I don't like that word because
it just because it comes charged withall the other stories and you know,
(56:44):
hell and damnation and the fire andlimbstone, which doesn't fit into my conception
of what I have felt and experiencedthat universal you know, love. And
so I find it interesting that otherpeople that I've spoken to at ions as
(57:08):
I have mentioned the word love inregard to their consciousness research I see this,
have or have not? Have havelooking have? Yeah? Is that
a emotional bias or do you doyou really think that there's something scientifically we
(57:29):
can like grasp hm hm a ifit's emotional bias. Are emotions to be
discarded or are there real There iswork being done on emotions as being substantial,
(57:52):
not material, but really real andtheir feedbacks and in the relationship Pale
Kaufman, Catherine Pale Kaufman has beendoing that, a wonderful lady. And
the one thing is that should shouldbe this disregard something because it's emotional.
(58:17):
Maybe there is some substance on that. The other thing is that mum hm
again like like I have, Ihave to borrow the wisdom of the past.
And Buddha was saying was asked inher, I said, uh,
master, aren't we all one?I realize now in my practice that we
(58:40):
are all one? And and gotA Buddha said, I mean the historical
Buddha said, if we are allone, who is speaking? So?
So that's one another thing of thatthat that sometimes hits you and stay with
you for the rest of the life. And it is like that in the
(59:02):
sense that okay, it is loveand everything, but we cannot it's it's
not cannot be expressed. Thousands andbillions and millions of people have danced and
expressed their feelings, and they havegreat civilizations and wrote poems, great art
(59:24):
architecture to express this feelings. Andit will be coming back and back and
back, because it is unspeakable,unexpressible. But what is again imprinted in
the materialistic real life that we liveis the interconnections. Because of that force
(59:50):
that keeps everything together, these interconnectionsare becoming more and more and more evident
at the psychological level, at tschologicallevel, at the social level, at
the planetary level, at the intergalacticlevel, at the at the universe levels.
More and more. Hawkins was rightthat this this central is a center
(01:00:14):
of complexity. You said, yousaid before, we have the web telescope
that goes in the depths of theuniverse bringing back information from the beginning of
what we think that is the beginningof the universe, and we realize that
everything is so delicately connected together.You know from the costs of nature that
(01:00:36):
if there was a little wrong numberin the in the fifteenth digit, everything
will be upside down and we willnot have ears or eyes. And you
know, you know the athropic principlething from the way we live together.
I mean we we're talking now andthrough cables that people lay down, through
(01:01:00):
energy that other people gathered, harvestedput it in our electricity. So you
can't plug in from one part ofthe world and I can click from from
the other. And we think thatwe are talking, but it's not us,
it's everybody else who did that.I mean from from from from and
(01:01:22):
and and the and the treason havebeen destroyed in the Amazon to fuel this
eleechnology and all that. So wewe are embedded, and we realize now
that we are forever interconnected. Wewant it or not. Yeah, So
in regard to the Buddha is saying, it's like, well, if if
(01:01:44):
if for all one who is speaking, anyone who has had either an anti
body experience, near death experience,transcendental meditation, experience, astacal rhapsody,
that it was sudden and unexpected orpsychedelic or whatever it is. They have
(01:02:07):
this experience of another oneness of consciousness, a oneness that when they're in that
state makes sense. They can,they can feel it, but when they
try, when they come back tothe conscious mind and try to express it,
(01:02:30):
it's like you said, it's inexpressible. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It's just that our brains are notstructured in a way so that we
have the ability to present what thatexperience is is other than trying to be
poetic and trying you know, representationin art form and music I think is
(01:02:53):
one of the most profound ways ofdoing that because it can really give you
a sense and a feeling of somethingwithout without descriptives, because because that's what
it is, it's it's almost it'sundescribable. Yeah. Yeah. In in
in in Greece. Again, anotherencounter, which is we were discussing drinking
(01:03:16):
wine in the in the in theby the sisre and and philosophized you again
young students, and there was aguy there who was very wise for old
sipil man kind of sorry of alocal stage. And then we went there
(01:03:43):
and as you said, we cannotexpress anymore. And then he said,
okay, guys, you cannot defineit, you cannot talk about it.
Why don't you dance it for me? Yeah? Yeah, you can?
Well, right right right. It'sit's what seems like perhaps a paradox to
(01:04:11):
our minds, you know, withinwithin these bodies what we perceive as an
almost impossible paradox in that altered statemakes sense, right, That's that's the
challenge is and I think that's allconnected to your study and consciousness because of
my hope is that that through thescientific study of consciousness, well we'll find
(01:04:33):
a way to bridge between those mysticalexperiences and our uh cognitive abilities to understand
it. But so we're at theend, sure, yeah, just just
it's it's like the advertisement of oursponsors. I am I am part of
(01:04:56):
exactly like that. I am partof the leg Commission, which the two
heads of our commission, Marjorie Woolcottand David Laurier, have published to have
collected stories from academics that say exactlythat they narrate their experiences. There are
many experiences coming from from opening thedoor of the of the of the refrigerator
(01:05:20):
and blowing blown out space, fromdrugs, from intense emotions. From that,
they all have a transformative experience.And you described exactly. It's called
spiritual awakenings and it's and for whatis important is that academics and scientists talk
(01:05:40):
about that. It is the ageof coming out. Rupert Celdric said that
when we're first got together to forma Gallic Commission, he said, jokingly
of the drinks, he said,you know something we look. I think
that we are like the gay communityin the sixties, that we all have
this feeling that we are okay,you know, it's nothing bad, but
(01:06:01):
society that would not accept us.So the scientists that they have this kind
of mystical awakening or spiritual awakening oryou know, encounter with different reality or
seeing God, whatever you like.It's like that that they cannot put it
in the agenda. They're afraid thatthey would be accused of photo science.
(01:06:23):
They cannot talk about soul, theycan't talk about emotions, they can't talk
about secondary qualities because still we areafraid that we are going to be not
burned alive, but ridiculed and loseour salaries. So it's little by little
scientists go out. My dream wouldbe to have a little video paraphrasing the
(01:06:45):
Mercury Fleddie Mercury the Great. Youknow, I want to be free.
I want to break free, breakfree, to have to have scientists got
the dancing with the labs. Ilike that. That's a good visual song
too. All right, doctor Basios, thank you so much for being on.
I really appreciate it. If youcan leave us one succinct thought,
(01:07:09):
But would it be Socrates used tosay that, and an unexamined life is
not worth living. We can paraphraseit saying that a signe of consciousness that
does not self reflect on itself isnot worth having. It's not me who
(01:07:33):
said that, it's a friend,but that's with me, all right,
beautiful, Thank you so much.I really appreciate it. You all right,
and thank you everyone for joining usfor another episode of Mystake Lounge,
which is rebroadcast on the UNEX Network. Special thanks to Race Hobbes and Margie
k from the unex Network. Andif you like this episode and other content.
(01:07:54):
Please subscribe, like, and clickthe notification bell so you don't miss
up miss out on any upcoming shows. And of course if you listen to
the podcast, please rate and reviewthere all that really helps the program continue
to grow. Thank you so much, peace and love, and until next
time, everyone live in the Mystery
You're listening to Mystic Lounge with AlanB. Smith rebroadcast on the ONEX Network
Thursdays at eleven pm Pacific Fridays attwo a m. Eastern. However you
(00:35):
are and whenever you are, welcometo mister Lounge from Allen B. Smith.
Joining me is doctor Fasilios Basios.He is a researcher in physical complex
systems University of Brussels and is oneof the recipients of the Institute of Noetic
Sciences Linda G. O'Brien Award forGroundbreaking Research and Consciousness. We have had
(00:58):
a number of ions guests fairly recently, and the reason for that is because
I'm particularly interested in consciousness studies andthey're doing some really interesting work in that
field. So I'm honored to haveour guests on tonight. If you miss
any of these shows, you canalways catch the rebroadcast on the UNEX network
(01:19):
at two a m. Eastern Centertime Fridays or eleven pm Pacific time on
Thursday night, and of course thepodcast will drop wherever you listen to all
your podcast platforms, wherever you listento your podcasts, and yeah really appreciate
if you could like comment you know, give a review and subscribe on the
(01:42):
YouTube channel because all of that organicallyreally helps the podcast and the channel grow.
So I appreciate everyone who's supported usso far and all of your continued
support. I really really appreciate allright, So let's bring on our guest,
Vasilio. How are you, hi, hi eah? How are you?
(02:02):
Very good? Very good? Thankyou so much for for being on
right now. The owner enjoys allmine. Thank you. So this is
early in the morning as far asdoing your recording goes. For me,
I'm usually a night night owl withthe show I have. I have a
slight, slight bit of a delayin my cognitive abilities until the coffee.
(02:27):
Really speaking of consciousness. But howare you? You're about what seven hours
ahead? And this is just afterlunch, which again it is yes the
time, so we are both inthe goods relaxed mood for yeah, I
mean we need we needs yesterday inthe United States, we really do.
(02:51):
See. I'm I'm originally from Greece. I have been transplanted to northern climates
mm hmm. And which climate doyou prefer? H Actually I love the
Belgian climate because it's very variable.So they say this summer wasn't on Wednesday
(03:14):
this year, so it's like youknow, never, you never know what's
going to happen. And it's andin Greece it's too hot now, especially
now with the climate change and allthat. This the last summers are very
very hot. But I yeah,yeah, I think the future migration for
a lot of people is going tobe north into the northern countries. It
(03:37):
makes sense. It's it's going toget cooler, it's going to be get
warmer. And so yeah, everybodyis surprised, but that this is happening.
People have been talking about that.So let's talk about your your work.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your your history as a as
a scientist and how it led toyour working with ions. It's it's not
(04:01):
a glorious history. I mean,it's just just I always loved physics from
from from little boy. I alwayswanted to be and and thank god I
had the right input and and impetusof from from my family and to go
and study whatever I wanted that becausethey believe that if you do something that
(04:27):
you really enjoy, that makes youhappy, it makes you not. Success
is not the world. There hereis more kind of good with your nice
feeling nice with yourself, and feelinga purposeful life no matter whether you were
successful or not in the eyes ofso anyway, So it's my purpose,
or one of my purposes to studynature. Later came the other purpose that
(04:56):
that kind of emerged to the tostudy the nature of this study why I
am studying nature? And with thisawakening and self reflection came kind of as
your title of mystic lounge, hasit a little more kind of mystical dimension
(05:17):
or or what we call it themystical dimensions that it went beyond science and
reached out to spilled out metaphysics,philosophy and all that. Yeah, it
does, does mystical? Can thatnot also be science? Uh? If
(05:41):
we start from the beginning and andsorry for my Greek perversion of with words.
Mystic comes from something that cannot betold, I like, uh I
can it's it's it's a secret mysticmysterious? Yes, yes, uh so.
(06:04):
The the secret is of two kinds. One is a secret that you
know, you and I there andwe don't change nobody else with or a
group of people conspire to to electsomeone for president or whatever. You know,
So this kind of secret, whichis interpersonal secret. And there is
the other secret, which is asecret the taste of coffee that we just
(06:27):
had. I know what it isbecause I had also a sip of coffee
right now, But I cannot reallyget into your experience, into your own
coffeeiness, the experience of you know, the experience of coffeineness or so this
is a secret. Also, it'sa subjective secret. And that was taught
in the mysteries when when people wereattending the mysteries there was a song.
(06:53):
It was not a dogma, itwas not a narration. It was a
theater with all the heating power ofthe theater. But yeah, in that
sense, in that sense, subjective, yes, can be scientific. Right,
so if we unlock a mystery,then that secret that once was becomes
(07:20):
fact or science. We can wecan look at it from from an objective
point of view. Gravity for instance, right we we we have a a
good idea of how it we know, we know how it functions, but
we don't technically know what it is. So it's both at the same time.
(07:44):
H nobody, nobody knows what gravityis. Re like like we don't
know any anything about I mean notanything but to do we don't really know
in the sense that we can definefundamental, fundamental substances or fundamental concepts because
(08:05):
the fundamental they don't. They don'tfoundation rests on the ground, does not
rest anything or anything any other foundation. So if gravity, because it spacetime,
it's fundamental. The split started inWestern mind around the end of the
(08:26):
Renaissance in sixteen hundred, and itwas a dramatic event that we separated.
Galileo was forced to separate the subjectivesecondary qualities with the primary objective qualities.
So objective it was what it couldbe measured analyzed by, especially with the
(08:48):
instruments of physics, or reduced tosome analysis with instruments that they show you
something physical in the screening numbers something. So that would be the experimental art
sciences, and then all the othersciences art humanities were delegated to subjective experiences,
(09:09):
not really you know something that atthat moment they thought that they could
reduce it to primary qualities, andthe second equalities were delegated to artists,
bishops, and so they would separatephysics from religion because that was a traumatic
experience from the West. I thinkit's the only civilization that had this class,
(09:35):
many people were better at the stakewith with first of the great Dano
Bruno, who paid the price willinglyto change the world, to bring back
the Pythagorean doctrines, so to speak. Back in science, Galileo retreated and
(09:56):
said, okay, guys, Idon't want that. Let's talk about primary
qualitist thing that we can measure inthe in the lab. Yes, and
and uh. But it didn't.It started very kind, very It's basically
he was saying something that you couldsee, something that is just tangible,
(10:18):
yes, because he thought that thisway he will escape dogma and theology.
Now although you know the famous scenewhere he asked the bishops in Padua to
look through his telescope, and thebishops no, no, no, no,
we don't need to look. Weknow what it is, you know
you, I mean, the Biblehas everything, so we don't want to
(10:39):
look. In a sense we havewe are living in a Galileo moment this
time now, because we all havesubjective experiences. People are having a lot
of experiences that cannot be reduced tomodern science, like near that experience the
(11:00):
stage of consciousness, either by drugsor by practices breathing whatever, and these
experiences are not neuroscience seeing things thatLatino surely, So this is we're cat
(11:24):
fans on this, on this evenif there's not a cat on the on
the on the show, it hasto you have to put it in by
She used to come up on thedesk more often. Now she just kind
of circles around below realizing. Sosorry for that. And but I I
(11:50):
guess it has a point because wealso tend to to to see everything that
is not human and has this divine, apocalyptic, biblical whatever, how you
we want to say consciousness as asa machine, so animals would be in
their eyes of sciences machines famously declaredby the card. So that's why you
(12:16):
can experiment without with them without askingtheir opinion, or you can eat you
can eat them alive, or youcan do whatever you want, thanks the
card. So although he loves hisdogs anyway, right, there's there's a
lot of that even today. Right, it's you know, there are certain
mammals that we absolutely love. Itwould be horrified if they're hurt, but
(12:37):
other mammals are good. It doesn'tmatter right there. And also and also
I mean my wife has been avegetarian. I'll try to be as more
as possible. But then we realizeone day that we are feeding our cats
cat food, which is other animals. Yeah, this is like, this
(13:00):
is this is a you have aninternal conflict about this. I really do,
as they say, analyze that exactly. Yeah, it's living, it's
living with the true dichotomy. It'syou know, having two belief systems simultaneously
opposing belief systems at the same time, which is something that we have to
(13:24):
learn to live with. If.Yeah, because we're encountering complexity at many
levels and at any scale. Andthere you have, as you said,
duality like like subjective, objective,measurable, non measurable. Many things that
are very important, the things thatreally count cannot be measured. They cannot
(13:45):
be counted. And the things thatcan be measured are irrelevant. I mean
most of the time, can canbe irrelevant. Why irrelevant to one that?
But but I mean you can measureeverything. You can measure the thickness
of the seat of a paper,You can measure how many flies passed by
(14:09):
the last moment that we have beentalking. Does it make sense just because
you measure something if you don't havethe theory and the and the background,
the conceptual conceptual receptacle to to toput it in receptacle, sorry, to
put it in and examine it.The the facts are passing through the net
(14:37):
of consciousness without registered you need andthe theories a net. The theory is
a net that can catch ut outsome part of the world and contain it
and make you analyze it thing aboutit. But it's not the whole thing.
The ocean is there. We justgot a little grasp related to the
(15:07):
well. I guess some might callalternative work that you're focused on the mind
of science and scientists. It issometimes flexible and sometimes extraordinarily stubborn. And
recently I had read an article abouta year and a half ago, I
think, I can't I can't remember, suggesting that the age of the universe
(15:31):
might be much much older, butno one was talking about it. And
then there's some articles that said no, that that was like a misinterpretation of
something, and I thought, oh, okay, I guess I made a
mistake. But then recently there wasa couple of physicists and astronomers that had
come out and said, based onsome of the imaging from James Webb telescope.
(15:54):
There seems to be a contradiction,not a contradiction, but a challenge
to the age of the universe basedon the where the distance of the galaxies
and the color of their infrared light, and so they're saying that based on
that, if we go on thatdata, it's conceivable the universe is something
(16:17):
like twenty six point seven billion yearsold, not thirteen zero point five.
And I found it interesting that thesewere legitimate scientists, and I saw a
couple of articles go out on thesubject, which doesn't Newton normally happen unless
there is some legitimate legitimacy to theclaim. And then it went silent again.
(16:44):
And I'm not hearing anything else aboutit. But what's your take on
that? I would ask, ofcourse Bology's friend Bennett Carho, that I
trust his opinion because I cannot haveall the theoretical background and that to analyze
that. But as a phenomenon,it's very familiar phenomenon, I mean in
(17:07):
scientific discourse. Because I was blessedto have joined the Salve Institute in the
early days of my career in workingwith a group of eliab Becaus in the
Nobel Price in physical chemistry and andalso kind of founders of complex descigence.
(17:30):
So they're there are people where youhad a lot of Nobel Price people coming
in and joining discussions and all that. Now the correct theory is my theory.
This is the ultimate criterion of truth. That I felt a little kind
of disappointed because I would see allthese brilliant minds, but they were there
(17:52):
were morally drafts. They were kindof you know, little me, me,
me, me me, And thatplays a big role in science.
Me and money and my money andmy theory, my project. So I
don't want to blame all my fellowscientists, but science is science is moving
like a sleepwalker, and sometimes weassume things that we don't really realize that
(18:15):
we have assumed. We make astep and we fall. We make another
step and we are good and wecontinue like that. And yes, this
is part of science, and thisis fun. If you don't cling to
your own little objectification of the ofthe universe and think that this is the
absolute truth. And if this isnot true, I am doomed and stupid,
(18:37):
and nobody will talk to me,and nobody would love me. That
that has to change. This isthe Ethess of Science that this is destructive
for the moment, and I'm sorry, I just want to say, I
think you tapped into something that hasn'treally come up. Oftentimes, the argument
for why scientists don't take on morefringe scientific studies is because they're afraid to
(19:07):
lose the funding. But I thinkthat you just tapped into something that maybe
speaks a little bit louder than that, is that there's an emotional component that
perhaps they want to be liked.Right, everybody wants to be liked,
especially by your peers. And soif you feel that you'll be ostracized and
you'll lose friendships and lose relationships becauseof your ideas in your novel thinking,
(19:36):
then that from an emotional psychologically it'sscary. And so it may not just
be about money. For some scientistsand scientists, it might just be a
social thing. Salary is important.You can't you can't chat around the cafeteria
if you don't have a job.Yeah, yeah, exactly. Your research
(19:57):
for for Ions, it was youand some other scientists. Of course,
you won the award for detecting deviationsfrom random activity as indications of consciousness beyond
the brain. What, Yes,what is beyond what's beyond the brain?
(20:18):
Where where does that study take you? As we have been just touching the
subject of of of of science asa social activity with French funds, with
French funds, fun and enemies andwhatever it goes together with human nature.
(20:42):
Science doesn't happen in a vacuum.There is a continue continuation, and we
have to acknowledge the fact that weare always building on the work of someone
of the generations, not only oneor two people, but of generations behind
us, and we leave some workfor the relation to come, maybe the
(21:06):
most difficult part of the work anyway. So what happens is that historically,
this this this line of the startstarted by analyzing phenomena that defy the hypothesis
that consciousness is a product of thebrain, like bile is a product of
(21:30):
our digestive system. So this iswhat again trying to reduce, like Galileo
and Fans, the subjective to theobjective. We thought that we are complicated
machines, a little more complicated thananimals, may be blessed with the divine
spark like the card. So we'redifferent than animals and we have connection directed
(21:52):
with God. So this thing thatwe call consciousness is just a response to
stimuli, and that with the behavior. This became known as the behavioral aspect
or the behavior school in neuroscience.So they thought that if you put if
you put enough electrodes on the brain, you can understand how the person feels.
(22:15):
They can even advertise machines that candream, that can that can record
your dreams and you can see themagain. Yeah right, that that's interesting.
M okay, well, I meanif you imagine that you can record
some sort of imagery that your brainis generating, it does give the impression
(22:36):
impression that the brain is nothing morethan a biological machine, which is not
which is not. Well, yousee when the card was saying that everything
includes da cats, dogs, whatever, are complicated machines. The other underground
(23:00):
mystical current was advocated by people likeLeibnitz and Newton, the great hidden sorcerers
of modern science. So Leiblnis hassaid something that really struck me and for
me resolved this that he was talkingabout the monad with the monod. For
(23:22):
libniits is the Pythagorean monod, whichis the career of the soul, the
one that reflects the whole the partthat reflects the whole. So it's a
reflection of God, the contraction ofGod or whatever. So that was the
theology of Pythagonianism that Leibnitz put itin a in a very strict, very
nice logical scheme, updated updated forhis time. And there he said something
(23:48):
that struck me. He said that, of course automata. He did not
call the machines automata. Living beingsare automata, but they are divine at
automata, Whether because the divine automotonis automoton up to the last part of
it, down to infinity. Whethera one made machine is a finite automaton
(24:14):
that has to stop somewhere, Soyou have clocks and rings that will work
together, but at a certain scaleit stops. But a divine machine,
a divine automaton, it's not automoton. It says that it's infinitely down,
cannot be reduced to any mechanis there'salways something like a fractal kind of thing
(24:36):
in our well, yeah, Buddhistshave talked about this, Yes, well,
Live Needs was very in and ingeneral the Pysagonians in the West,
we're very kind of you know,in tune with Iste Buddhism, Benitching and
all that. But again it wasnot uncovered until the seventies that we thanks
(24:57):
to Frizers Capra than his book TheTauel Physics, which creates like a consciousness
expansions in my generation. Yeah,so, yes, these truths are kind
of intuitively grasped but not academically expressed. And definitely they are not good for
(25:22):
making bombs and refrigerators and things thatyou can sell in the market. But
some scientists would make the argument thatthe age of philosophy is over, philosophy
is not science. What's your takeon that that that sort of attitude.
Oh, yeah, the absence ofmetaphysics is a metaphysical position. If you
(25:51):
deny that there's nothing beyond the physical, it is a metaphysical position. So
this is another kind of metaphysics.Yes, it's another kind of philosophy.
So declaring that philosophy is dead becausemy philosophy has one doesn't say anything about
(26:11):
the absence of philosophy. Well yeah, but but philosophy you can't isn't a
methodology for discovering truth or facts?Yes? Right, So is there still
a place for philosophy and science?There's definitely, and only another places it's
(26:38):
a it's in need, it's it'san oxygen for science. There was.
The last attempt to eliminate philosophy wasin Vienna cycle, where in the thirties
or so you had this positivism thatthat as you said that that or logical
(27:00):
positives that they try to reduce everythingto work very well defined logical propositions,
so truth could be reduced to akind of proof system. That happened,
and that stopped by the great workof Gedel who used Kurt Gedle that he
(27:21):
turned the thing on it said sayingthat based on on on the Raster's paradox
that says that this sentence I'm paraphrasinghere, that this sentence is not true.
So if you accept that it's nottrue, it is true. And
(27:41):
if you accept that it's true,it's not true. So you get this
Gadeli and nonlinear thinking. This isa kind of complexity at work. Then
you he opened up and this issomething that the philosopher's zeno of In the
old times, you see platonic dialogswith these kind of tricks like the a
(28:03):
kids and the talk to us thatwho is running faster or the arrow that
never reaches its target. So youhave this nonlinear thinking of reflecting the logic
on itself that creates a paradox.And exactly is exactly what we said that
(28:23):
the philosophy, the denies philosophy isstill a philosophy. Science that says that
I don't need philosophy. It's aphilosophical stance. So that's what they wanted
to do, and it has beendestroyed by Curt Gedul. Forever we cannot
we don't know how to absolutely formalizedtruth. We have to live with that.
(28:48):
We have to live that our definitionsare partial and can never be complete
and cohere. And at the sametime, can you click your microphone down
just a tad bit? Yes,there no sorry, So okay. So
speaking of philosopher, So Socrates,according to the Plato, you know,
(29:10):
I saw him himself more as themidwife, right. He didn't think of
himself as as a particularly brilliant personcoming up with new ideas. His function
was to help usher in new ideas. You now, to get other other
people, other smart people, tothink about things, yes, or to
(29:33):
discover our own idea. So eachone, each one has has to find
what is all about by for forhimself, and that it is just humidity
and humidity and the compassion and livingtogether. It's we don't have to fight
(29:55):
for opinions or or positions. Thiscan change. What doesn't change is us
as as human beings. I preferto change my position and change the population
that doesn't agree with my position.Otherwise we become talents and hitlers, you
know, because whoever doesn't agree withus off goes to housewitch. I mean
(30:18):
exaggerating, but no, no,not exaggerating, but not exaggerating, you
know, you know what, Sothis this, although I think that in
that case there is quite a bitof dishonesty in their conviction. It was
a convenient, convenient conviction, notnecessarily an intellectually honest one about about the
(30:44):
people. And I think that wesee that too. I think in science
as well. Right, yes,I have a kind of passion for history
of science. And now I amreading about bell Armine, the guy who
condemned to done Bruno and also wasa chief investigator holy investigator of the church
(31:06):
and suit uh four who was prosecutingGalileo or GALILEI. And the guy has
some notes and some kind of kindof reflections, and he's really concerned about
what is truth. I mean,he believed that he had to burn alive
Bruno and he and the heretics,and that theners would destroy the fabric of
(31:30):
the church. For him was reallya compassion, adoration of Christ, adoration
of love and all that. Soit is kind of you know, we
are grasping and we make love anobject and an institution, and in science
(31:51):
and religion becomes an institution, acrystallized structure, and we're grasping on this
crystalized crature and forget the experience theobjective. How does it feel ready to
love? Does it feel like killingpeople when you love? I don't think
that anybody in love could kill?And how does it feel to be a
good Christian and follow Christ? Doesit mean that you have to have a
(32:14):
strict, true institution, punishment,hell, whatever. So we we were
kind of getting blocked in our ownmental jails or whatever. Cells. Yeah,
but don't know just what as yousaid, Yeah, he was general.
I mean, he was convenient formany many other bishops. For him,
(32:35):
he was struggling after his last hisdeathbed, whether he did the right
think or not. And he wastrauggling yeah, I should have condemned because
his soul now rests with God thathe can redeem himself. Otherwise he would
go around being a sinner. Andhe had to punish the scientists because doing
things that people will be scared toknow that earth goes around the son will
(33:00):
be creating social chaos, and weshould take care of our fellow citizens not
to become lunatic. So in regardto that, the conception of the soul,
let's say, according to the CatholicChurch or religion in general, is
(33:22):
that similar to the non corporeal consciousnessthat you're studying. Kind of yes,
I mean yes, I prefer tocall it monard like libr but that's my
my again, Pysagoian perversion. It'sI don't. I don't cling to that.
(33:44):
You can call it many names,and it will be called many names
because everyone can bring something different.It is unspeakable, so you can speak
of it in many ways if youlike it's sold becau fine if you like
it. Energy source the guy thathas that that put me in into this
(34:06):
work. Bob John and Brenda Dunedone, sorry pronouncial the French way better
than and Bob John from Princeton.They used to call it the Source to
give it a more kind of scientificscience fiction kind of It could be the
(34:29):
I don't know, the great spaghettiis that it is a religion of monster.
But that's a but that's from likea philosophical atheist. Yeah, to
do that is actually designed to disproveand Mark Yeah. Well, another very
(34:50):
pleasant concept was is the money tothe great spirit of nature of the American
Indians, which lovely or the taulor Zeus, the I mean, the
ancient Greek creator or whatever you nameit. It would change anyway, I
(35:10):
mean, right, But there's butthere's a difference between and we can talk
more about your your work, butthere's a difference between studying consciousness and whether
it can be detected beyond the bodythat and something that survives you know,
(35:31):
post mortem, Yes, definitely.So where where are you on that If
you've detected that consciousness expands beyond thebrain matter. Now, now what's your
interpretation of that as far as itbeing something that's strictly attached to our bodies.
(35:57):
Yes, First of all, myexperience and because I have I have
my share of losses in life fromearly age, it is it is deeply
as true as as the coffee thatyou drink. This kind of secret that
(36:20):
love is much more stronger than death. If something is stronger than death is
love and our relationship with with departedpeople. And this is not it sounds
poetic, but for some people it'snot. I mean, it's it's it's
(36:43):
something that you you you have toto either feel it or not. It's
it's like again, tasting it's asecret. It's it's tasting coffee. If
you don't have it. If ifyou never taste coffee, then then you're
missing out. Yes, yes,yeah, or not? Maybe not because
it may its bitter sweeter. Maybethat's why I like coffee. It's a
(37:08):
it's a reflection of life. It'sit could be bittersweet, but it keeps
it going. Right. So you'reyou're talking about love. Where did you
come up with this idea that thatlove is so powerful that it's not an
idea, it's not the idea,it is fitting from my personal experience.
Now, setting that apart before wego further, let's what what is your
(37:32):
personal experience? Then it's it's havinghaving lost my my my father at fifteen
and then my later in life,my my mother and my two brothers very
shortly after my mother. So itwas it was and saying from my from
(37:58):
my catch and my wife and mywork that that what I meant more was
I assumed you had some kind ofexperience where you felt our presence many many.
It was not something like a revelationthat's lasted one. It's a continuous
coabitation, let's say. But isn'tthat more of just your mind remembering them
(38:22):
and incorporating it into your conscious thoughts. Maybe yes, But the thing is
that let me let me feeloshiphize alittle on that too, because it's something
I told. It's something that Icannot communicate otherwise. I mean, I'm
(38:43):
not a great poet or an artistto express myself like that, But I
think, like I put myself mymind together and think I have been trained
to think saying that something which isupset that from our measurements. But yet
the termins are measurements, and thisis consciousness or what we call constumes or
(39:07):
the monod or whatever it is,like like a container or or a boundary
that that that it's not there,but has implications of what's happening inside the
boundary. It's a constraint that determinesthe dynamics at the lower level. So
(39:30):
we have the dynamics at the physicallevel, but there's something else on top
of that which is not necessarily itis quite emerging with the substrate. So
it's not off the substrate, butit lives with the substrate. So let's
say that you are boiling rice.You boil rice, you have around thing
(39:54):
around pot, and you discovered thathave hexagons. The rise falls in hexagons.
Right, These hexagons are are notpart of the equation of motion of
its rice, little rice. Itis part of the boundary that keeps the
whole system together plastic gradient in temperature. So the whole configuration, the cost
(40:15):
strain of a complex system makes thecomplex system show patterns like the hurricane patterns.
Right, the hurricane is around thepoint where the point is not part
of the hurricane because doesn't move.It's zero velocity. But still if there's
(40:36):
not if you cannot create this pointby the boundaries about the other things that
move around, you don't have ashielding. That's a good analogy. Yeah,
you are a good communicator, Ithink. So this is something like
us. I mean, we areyou know, atoms that can change every
seven, twelve, seventeen years dependingon the organ and sells DNA. Everything
(41:01):
come and goes, but something thatkeeps them together, which not necessarily a
guy inside of me pulling the strings. It is something which is from outside.
It's like a shrill in the inthe ocean. You feel at the
center, but the center is becauseof the boundaries. So we feel that
(41:23):
we have this ego, but weare part of the big skin scene.
So and I would say is brahma. So if so, what we are
is not part of space and time. Where we go is not part of
space and time, and love isnot part of space and time. And
(41:47):
in my little philosophical music is thattherefore love is not part of the space
and time drama. And because it'san emotion, it's a relation, it's
it's it's it's it's a relation.It's not part of the of the substance.
(42:12):
So that makes me think that itis stronger than the pattern that it
creates. We can measure brain activityaccording to emotions, so we we we
have have a way of charge chartingwhen someone is experiencing a particular emotion.
(42:37):
So just so you're saying, justbecause we can can measure that activity.
That doesn't mean it is bound tojust the brain activity that So are you
saying it's sourced from somewhere else where? Is that coming from? Another alternative
(42:57):
explanation is that there is a sourcewhich somehow we are getting in touch with
that in the same way that youknow the radio receiver. Yeah. I
think that there's something interesting about love. You know, it just always it
always comes up, you know thatthat particular word. But of course,
like all languages, that word hasdifferent inferences and and and variations of its
(43:24):
meaning. Right, It's be likeI love chocolate. Well, that's not
the same as you know, Ilove my wife. It's that's a very
different use of the word. AndI think we're all pretty much smart enough
to understand that. But there isthis kind of universal grand love that that
(43:46):
that I think you're speaking of too, that it is beyond boundaries, it's
beyond judgment. That there's something there'ssomething mystical about that at And that's that's
why that's why I definitely sync withyou, because I feel like there's something
(44:07):
almost intangible about it. No matterhow many definitions one tries to put on
love, it doesn't really encompass thatexperience. Yes, and you know that
there's a night for me. Ithelped me because humor also or serious humor.
(44:37):
It's it's helpful in that respect becauseit's part of love and the creative
game. Isaac Asimo, the greatguy. I love him and I love
his his novels. At one moment, and you see, these are the
moment that sometimes you get this glimpseof life. Then you stage four.
(45:00):
I remember I was in a busin Greece undergraduates, and I was going
to do to the university thing,and I had a little pocket book and
there Asimov says, uh, theyare encountering Earth, the fourth planet of
(45:22):
the Solar system. And uh,this this extraterrestial being saying that they are
in on their way of the civilizationhas not reached the galactic level to connect
(45:42):
with them. You see, theyonly have discovered the universal law of laugh
in it in its material form,and they call it Newton's gravity. There
are other forms and other causalities thatare not part of Newton's or Einstein's gravity.
(46:04):
So we have a very good understandinga grasp on Newton's gravity. Things
that keeps things together yes, wesee it, we observe it. It's
it's easy to see, right,yes, and and and also in Einstein
is a relations that that keeps thingstogether, like space and time relations.
(46:24):
So it's it's a fabric of relationalqualities that makes think attract. In your
research, have you seen any relationshipbetween time and consciousness? Not in my
research as in the things that Ipublished for for Living Now, but in
(46:49):
my research as independent researchers. Yes, so is consciousness then is it still
tied to our idea of linear timeor does it definitely conconsciousness as we understand
it now, it starts with birthand end with death, and it has
(47:12):
to be some somehow attached to amachine, I mean the machinery, the
human human being, animals. Somepeople talk about bacterial consciousness. They are
kind of the pan psychists of thatthey are coming back back from with with
the ghost of the Psagoreans and Brunoto hunters from the past because we excluded
(47:37):
them. So they are kind ofthe last resort of materialism. But still
even if if they are pan psychistsor pan anthist, is a difference in
the sense that the pan andent thestis that people believe that everything is you
know, something, a source oflove, whatever that per mats everything.
(47:58):
Where psyche is also can be connectedwith the body, and psyche soul starts
with a body and with the body. This is like more conventional way of
thinking in the last resort of Thereare many many places in neuroscience and even
books written on the fact that wedo not have a one to one correlation
(48:22):
between our brain activity and subjective experience. This is standard, that's why they
call it. And you correlate andnot cause. Course. Yeah, we
have had near death experiencers who've hadcomplete you know, death of brain activity
(48:45):
and heart come back and have memoriesor have seen things in an operating room
or what have you that they shouldn'thave otherwise been able to perceive. And
then you have some very long youknow, term deaths like a thirteen minutes
or something like that, where there'sor longer where there's no brain activity and
(49:07):
someone's been able to been brought broughtback to debt life if that's the case,
and then there there they are themselvesagain, does that mean this external
or extended consciousness it stuck around,it hung around the body, or like
a magnet, it just came,you know, because because I wonder these
(49:31):
people, you know, bodies,you know, my wife and I were
talking about this recently, these cryogenicallyyou know bodies and stasis. If one
hundred years from now, two hundredyears from now, science has a way
to you know, bring them backto life in full capacity without cellul or
brain damage and all this what youknow, what kind of mind do you
(49:55):
imagine that that that will be thatperson will be screwed up? Yeah,
imagine you wake up in the aehandred years from now. That's not the
best experience, totally. Yeah,okay, but well it might be not
(50:17):
just be that, but maybe they'repsychopaths too. I mean, if if
if you see, I mean,if it's not something that cannot be done.
But we want to sleep for twohundred years, that's a nightmare.
Some people do. Yeah, youknow, I there are people who have
been in comas for twenty years andthat that's traumatic. But you know what,
(50:39):
the human mind is really adaptable,and and you know there's probably a
period of uh, grieving after wakingup, grieving the past, grieving that
all those memories are only with younow and there's no one to really share
that with. But then there's theadventure of life. And I imagine most
(51:02):
people who were willingly going into crowdgenic stasis there they have the mind that's
that's able to adapt. Yeah,exactly as you said. Next next the
town in uh in Belgium. Herethere's a comic, big, big Comma
(51:23):
clinic and it has been they're verysuccessfully in identifying comma states and helping people
come back from comma and in themain I had several discussions with them and
kind of collaboration that again. DeSmet was the name, the great professor
(51:45):
there, and he was we're talkingall the time. He was one of
the big shorts of the Solve crowd, and he was telling me all the
time that you cannot the levels ofanaesthesia, and he liked to have the
icebreak and he said, we arelike an iceberg, and you can have
(52:07):
an anaesthesia which is down at theroots of the icebreag and you cannot feel
anything on top, but you arestill in the ocean. And that was
the feeling that he was describing fromhis patients. He never had an experienced
himself of this ocean, but hesaid, I don't have it. I
have it only in my meditation,in my philosophical music, or when I
(52:28):
listen to music or whatever. ButI know that everybody in my patient.
The way they describe is that wego down in an abyss, and this
abyss is there. It's not somethingthat does not exist. It's not in
existence. It's a different form ofundifferentiated existence, but it's there. And
(52:49):
then they describe themselves as they goup and wake up from the coma or
whatever, as climbing a mountain orthe horizon becoming more clear. Here suddenly
there is a horizon before there wasnow horizon. Suddenly there is something that's
just up and down, and sothey have this experience of climbing up a
mountaintop or an icebreag according to thismyth. He liked this metaphor, and
(53:12):
he also liked that because of Youngalso used this metaphor of the subsconscious and
cursus. Now so, but younever there are people who are in deep
combin. They can see everything inthere. They can hear everything they have
loved once grieving and telling them tocome back, or telling them just the
stories of the family. You know, they just sit next to them and
say how the boy went to schooland how the girl had them a great
(53:36):
exam passing and blah blah blah,you know. Just yeah, So that
means that there's some imperceptible sensor ofsome sort something that's picking up the data
around them and bringing it into theconsciousness. But it shouldn't be because the
brain is shut down in such away that it shouldn't be able to memory,
(54:01):
right. And the strange thing isthat he might be able to see
the or feel something about relatives andfamily and they can operate and they can
amputate, and yeah, he doesn'treally realize that he has been cut half
(54:21):
open, you know. And oneof the team, I should not say
the name, but one of theteams that we all want the price,
and I highlight that we all wantthe price. Bolth was the leader on
this because he believed that we cando it, and we did it.
But but in our team we havea different ethers and and and and kind
(54:44):
of more collegial fun so I cannotdifferentiate. Some of us have written something,
other have written other stuff. Otherpeople have just written one sentence,
but very important. So we areall part of that. So it's it's
not it's not that it's my Iwork. Although it's my work because it's
(55:04):
my team. Of course, everybodysays the same. He's not a leader,
you know, everybody would say myteam, one of our team.
Then, so he had any experience, and he's a physicist, and we
have talked about that extensively over theyears, and he had this near death
experience that marked him. And healways says that once you learn how to
(55:34):
fly, you cannot live with yourhead looking down on the ground anymore.
And and and although and he goeson with with very many explanations, his
explanation is that and I agree withthat theoretically and experientially from meditation, not
(55:55):
from near the experience that you oftenyou go to this other reality which is
totally other, no space, notime, but there there's still it is
still relational. There's something there thatthat connects you things. And that is
what I think that the mystics andthe sages would call love or universal love.
(56:20):
This is something that connects us witheverything. Yeah, yeah, there's
there's the Really, I really,really truly believe that there's a something like
that, like a universal love withthe capital U, capital L. Some
some some people may call that GodI. I don't like that word because
it just because it comes charged withall the other stories and you know,
(56:44):
hell and damnation and the fire andlimbstone, which doesn't fit into my conception
of what I have felt and experiencedthat universal you know, love. And
so I find it interesting that otherpeople that I've spoken to at ions as
(57:08):
I have mentioned the word love inregard to their consciousness research I see this,
have or have not? Have havelooking have? Yeah? Is that
a emotional bias or do you doyou really think that there's something scientifically we
(57:29):
can like grasp hm hm a ifit's emotional bias. Are emotions to be
discarded or are there real There iswork being done on emotions as being substantial,
(57:52):
not material, but really real andtheir feedbacks and in the relationship Pale
Kaufman, Catherine Pale Kaufman has beendoing that, a wonderful lady. And
the one thing is that should shouldbe this disregard something because it's emotional.
(58:17):
Maybe there is some substance on that. The other thing is that mum hm
again like like I have, Ihave to borrow the wisdom of the past.
And Buddha was saying was asked inher, I said, uh,
master, aren't we all one?I realize now in my practice that we
(58:40):
are all one? And and gotA Buddha said, I mean the historical
Buddha said, if we are allone, who is speaking? So?
So that's one another thing of thatthat that sometimes hits you and stay with
you for the rest of the life. And it is like that in the
(59:02):
sense that okay, it is loveand everything, but we cannot it's it's
not cannot be expressed. Thousands andbillions and millions of people have danced and
expressed their feelings, and they havegreat civilizations and wrote poems, great art
(59:24):
architecture to express this feelings. Andit will be coming back and back and
back, because it is unspeakable,unexpressible. But what is again imprinted in
the materialistic real life that we liveis the interconnections. Because of that force
(59:50):
that keeps everything together, these interconnectionsare becoming more and more and more evident
at the psychological level, at tschologicallevel, at the social level, at
the planetary level, at the intergalacticlevel, at the at the universe levels.
More and more. Hawkins was rightthat this this central is a center
(01:00:14):
of complexity. You said, yousaid before, we have the web telescope
that goes in the depths of theuniverse bringing back information from the beginning of
what we think that is the beginningof the universe, and we realize that
everything is so delicately connected together.You know from the costs of nature that
(01:00:36):
if there was a little wrong numberin the in the fifteenth digit, everything
will be upside down and we willnot have ears or eyes. And you
know, you know the athropic principlething from the way we live together.
I mean we we're talking now andthrough cables that people lay down, through
(01:01:00):
energy that other people gathered, harvestedput it in our electricity. So you
can't plug in from one part ofthe world and I can click from from
the other. And we think thatwe are talking, but it's not us,
it's everybody else who did that.I mean from from from from and
(01:01:22):
and and the and the treason havebeen destroyed in the Amazon to fuel this
eleechnology and all that. So wewe are embedded, and we realize now
that we are forever interconnected. Wewant it or not. Yeah, So
in regard to the Buddha is saying, it's like, well, if if
(01:01:44):
if for all one who is speaking, anyone who has had either an anti
body experience, near death experience,transcendental meditation, experience, astacal rhapsody,
that it was sudden and unexpected orpsychedelic or whatever it is. They have
(01:02:07):
this experience of another oneness of consciousness, a oneness that when they're in that
state makes sense. They can,they can feel it, but when they
try, when they come back tothe conscious mind and try to express it,
(01:02:30):
it's like you said, it's inexpressible. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It's just that our brains are notstructured in a way so that we
have the ability to present what thatexperience is is other than trying to be
poetic and trying you know, representationin art form and music I think is
(01:02:53):
one of the most profound ways ofdoing that because it can really give you
a sense and a feeling of somethingwithout without descriptives, because because that's what
it is, it's it's almost it'sundescribable. Yeah. Yeah. In in
in in Greece. Again, anotherencounter, which is we were discussing drinking
(01:03:16):
wine in the in the in theby the sisre and and philosophized you again
young students, and there was aguy there who was very wise for old
sipil man kind of sorry of alocal stage. And then we went there
(01:03:43):
and as you said, we cannotexpress anymore. And then he said,
okay, guys, you cannot defineit, you cannot talk about it.
Why don't you dance it for me? Yeah? Yeah, you can?
Well, right right right. It'sit's what seems like perhaps a paradox to
(01:04:11):
our minds, you know, withinwithin these bodies what we perceive as an
almost impossible paradox in that altered statemakes sense, right, That's that's the
challenge is and I think that's allconnected to your study and consciousness because of
my hope is that that through thescientific study of consciousness, well we'll find
(01:04:33):
a way to bridge between those mysticalexperiences and our uh cognitive abilities to understand
it. But so we're at theend, sure, yeah, just just
it's it's like the advertisement of oursponsors. I am I am part of
(01:04:56):
exactly like that. I am partof the leg Commission, which the two
heads of our commission, Marjorie Woolcottand David Laurier, have published to have
collected stories from academics that say exactlythat they narrate their experiences. There are
many experiences coming from from opening thedoor of the of the of the refrigerator
(01:05:20):
and blowing blown out space, fromdrugs, from intense emotions. From that,
they all have a transformative experience.And you described exactly. It's called
spiritual awakenings and it's and for whatis important is that academics and scientists talk
(01:05:40):
about that. It is the ageof coming out. Rupert Celdric said that
when we're first got together to forma Gallic Commission, he said, jokingly
of the drinks, he said,you know something we look. I think
that we are like the gay communityin the sixties, that we all have
this feeling that we are okay,you know, it's nothing bad, but
(01:06:01):
society that would not accept us.So the scientists that they have this kind
of mystical awakening or spiritual awakening oryou know, encounter with different reality or
seeing God, whatever you like.It's like that that they cannot put it
in the agenda. They're afraid thatthey would be accused of photo science.
(01:06:23):
They cannot talk about soul, theycan't talk about emotions, they can't talk
about secondary qualities because still we areafraid that we are going to be not
burned alive, but ridiculed and loseour salaries. So it's little by little
scientists go out. My dream wouldbe to have a little video paraphrasing the
(01:06:45):
Mercury Fleddie Mercury the Great. Youknow, I want to be free.
I want to break free, breakfree, to have to have scientists got
the dancing with the labs. Ilike that. That's a good visual song
too. All right, doctor Basios, thank you so much for being on.
I really appreciate it. If youcan leave us one succinct thought,
(01:07:09):
But would it be Socrates used tosay that, and an unexamined life is
not worth living. We can paraphraseit saying that a signe of consciousness that
does not self reflect on itself isnot worth having. It's not me who
(01:07:33):
said that, it's a friend,but that's with me, all right,
beautiful, Thank you so much.I really appreciate it. You all right,
and thank you everyone for joining usfor another episode of Mystake Lounge,
which is rebroadcast on the UNEX Network. Special thanks to Race Hobbes and Margie
k from the unex Network. Andif you like this episode and other content.
(01:07:54):
Please subscribe, like, and clickthe notification bell so you don't miss
up miss out on any upcoming shows. And of course if you listen to
the podcast, please rate and reviewthere all that really helps the program continue
to grow. Thank you so much, peace and love, and until next
time, everyone live in the Mystery
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