Magic Mushrooms and Personal Transformation Help Without Mansplaining

Jennifer Chesak, author of The Psilocybin Handbook for Women, joins me to discuss experiential and scientific evidence for the powerful therapeutic and magic-like properties of psilocybin mushrooms. Her book is a resource for everyone, although it features information specific to those assigned female at birth—because psychedelics may have different effects and applications across the sexes. Physical pain and psychological challenges are often relieved by either microdosing psilocybin or by ritualistic use of mushrooms. Jennifer shares about the science of the brain, how our understanding of the chemical interactions affect how we see ourself, and the benefits of the reported mystical experiences.
https://www.jenniferchesak.com/the-psilocybin-handbook-for-women

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Lounge with Alan B. Smith rebroadcaston the ONEX Network Thursdays at eleven pm
Pacific, Fridays at two a m. Eastern. However you are, and

(00:29):
whenever you are, welcome, goodsouls to Mystic Lounge. I'm Alan B.
Smith. You're a grateful host.I have a great guest on tonight
a subject that is historically dearer tomy heart, and that is mushrooms,
psychedelic mushrooms to be specific. However, tonight we're looking at it from a

(00:53):
different perspective or I made no difference. Actually, probably not the right word,
And I'll let our guests describe itbetter than I. Because her book,
The Psilocybin Handbook for Women, focusesmostly on the effects of psychedelic use

(01:18):
for women, because that is asubject that has not been really fleshed out
very well in the literature and inthe science, which we'll talk about.
Jennifer Chessick is my guest. Jennifer, Welcome to Mistic Lounge. How are
you. I'm great. Thank youso much for having me. I really
appreciate it. Yeah, I'm happyyou're here. This is a really different

(01:42):
take on the psychedelic conversation and It'sobviously a much needed one. It's come
up on the channel before. Howyou know, women are gaslighted when it
comes to you know, medical issues, psychological and otherwise. But it hadn't

(02:04):
even occurred to me that that wouldoccur within the psychedelic community because one thinks
of you know, one love,you know, the communal spirit of the
whole thing, expanding one's mind,becoming a better person, healing all of
that. So to think that there'sthere's something that was missed somehow was a

(02:25):
little bit of a surprise to me. But then once you start I started
reading your book, I was like, Okay, I see it, you
know, especially the medical and thescientific aspect of it. So let's talk
about your sojourn in the beginning.You know, that really was the inception
of the longer journey of your uncoveringof the the benefits bros and cons and

(02:50):
potential future of psychedelics for women andeveryone too. Yeah. Absolutely. So.
I'm a journalist and a fact checker, and I focus on science and
medical journalism mostly, and then I'vealways had a fascination with psychedelics as well,
and I'm super passionate about women's healthbecause I'm a woman myself, and
I've had many medical problems in mylife, and I've experienced the gas lighting

(03:15):
firsthand and in the doctor's office,and it's been really, really frustrating,
And so setting out to write thebook, I came across some interesting research
in that it's actually that in manycases, more women are using psychedelics more
frequently than men are. And thatcame as a bit of a surprise to
me. I just thought it wouldbe more men. And this comes from

(03:36):
the Global Drug Survey of twenty twenty, and when I dug a little deeper
and made sense to me. Andbecause there's tends to be a difference in
the way that men and women usepsychedelics, so men, traditionally not all
of them, tend to use psychedelicsa little bit more recreationally. There's nothing
wrong with that. And again thisis from the Global Drug Survey of twenty
twenty. Whereas women are turning topsychedelics to self treat, and they're doing

(04:00):
that because they're not getting adequate carein the mainstream medical system in many cases,
so they're self treating conditions like PTSD, trauma, depression, anxiety,
also chronic pain, any conditions relatedto the menstrual cycle things like that,
because again, they're just finding alot of frustration in the mainstream medical system.
And I always like to back upmy information with facts too and share

(04:25):
this little timeline on what am Italking about about the mainstream medical system.
So I'm not against the mainstream medicalsystem because I am a science and medical
journalist. I just want to sharethat first, but I do have some
problems with it as a woman,especially, So women were largely excluded from
early stage clinical trials until around nineteenninety three, So the early nineties.

(04:45):
That's crazy, crazy since like thestudy it's been since like not psalo cybin
itself, but it had psychedelics goneback all the way to like the early
thirties. Yeah, I'm actually justtalking about psychedelics in I mean, not
a medical medical studies in general,so not just psychedelics. We were we
were excluded from all clinical trials soundingthe next nineties. Yeah, and so

(05:08):
this has had huge ramifications for women'shealth. So it's if we think about
this timeline. So men got adrug for male sexual dysfunction in nineteen ninety
eight, and everyone knows what thatis. You can tell me right,
we had a presidential runner sharing informationabout that. Yeah, yeah, so
yes, viagra household name. Atthat point in time, the medical community,

(05:29):
let alone anyone that a woman mighthave been sleeping with, didn't have
an adequate picture of what the clatorislooks like. There's all this internal structure
to the clatoras, and that didn'toccur until two thousand and five. If
you could believe that that a femaleurologist finally did some research and learned,
you know, the full scale ofthe claturas. So we finally find the
clatorus in two thousand and five,and then it wasn't until twenty fifteen that

(05:53):
women finally got a drug for femalesexual dysfunction. And so that's a seventeen
year gap from when dudes got adrug to when women got a drug for
the same condition, even though obviouslysexual dysfunction affects the male body and the
female body differently. I just liketo share that timeline because it's it shows
the frustrations I think that women havereally faced, and so putting this book

(06:14):
out that's really focusing on the intersectionof women's health and psilocybmin felt really important
because if women are using psychedelics toself treat I certainly want them to be
able to do that in a verysafe way and in a way that where
they have all the information with thecontext for their bodies, including the menstrual
cycle and things like that. Right, and so what about your your journey?

(06:39):
Ah, so you want to knowabout my journey? Yeah, yeah,
I thought you were asking about thejourney of the book. Oh no,
I am too. Yeah, it'sall all that context is important because
it ties in directly to your personalexperience. Yeah, so my personal experience.
I was always really afraid of doingpsychedelics before, and then you know,
I dove into getting this book dealand it was like, well,

(07:00):
I can't accurately write about psychedelics withoutactually trying it. I've always been interested
in doing a psychedelic but just didn'treally feel like I had the knowledge or
the information that would help me havethe best experience possible. Not that you
can control your experience, but obviouslyyou can set yourself up for a good
experience, and I just never feltlike I was in the right space to

(07:21):
do that. But with the bookdealer, again, I felt like I
just could not accurately write about psychedelicswithout diving in myself, and I'm so
glad I did because it ended upbeing one of the most profound experiences of
my life. So I hired anunderground guide, and you know, we
met at a cabin in the woodsin a safe way. I mean,
he brought a female trip setter andwe had a lot of conversations before I

(07:45):
met with him. But it's alwaysreally funny when I'm like, I went
to a cabin in the woods witha complete stranger to do. You make
that very clear in the book.You did thorough research. You didn't just
wander into some random, you know, jungle hut break right exactly. It
wasn't like that. But yeah,it was a really profound experience. I
think one of two things that I'llshare is the I did two journeys,

(08:09):
so one one night and then onethe next day, and the first journey
was about roughly two grams of psilocybin. And one of the most profound things
I felt was as if I wasconnected by points of light to everyone that
I know and love, and wholoves I know loves me back, and
I could feel their love coming tome, and I was sending love on
these almost like electrical currents, andI think that felt so profound because you

(08:33):
know, a lot of times weknow we have a support system, but
to really feel that in your bodyis it's magical. I mean to you,
to be cliche, it's very magical. But then the next day I
did a deeper dose, so aboutthree point five grams throughout the day and
eventually I hit peak dose and somethingI did feel some anxiety come up.

(08:54):
And at first I was kind oflike, I want to unsubscribe from this,
from this experience, but you can't. You're on that roller coaster,
right, and so you can't getoff, and which is okay, you
know, And I think the importantthing to understand is if you the more
you resist it, the worse it'sgoing to be. So if you just
sit with it, that can bereally helpful. And I'm so glad that
I just, you know, kindof sat there and let the mushroom take

(09:16):
me where it needed me to go. And something that I've been struggling with
a lot in my life in recentyears is that I have I have aging
parents, and you know, I'mreally I know that this is, you
know, a cycle of life.They will end up passing away someday,
but that does give me a lotof anxiety. And I felt like,

(09:37):
on the other side of their deathsor will just be unending grief and I'll
never be okay again. I'll justbe like dark life forever. And I
had to really confront my anxiety aboutthat because that's not necessarily true. You
know, again, we lose peoplein our lives. But anyway, I
sat with that feeling and considered it, and it felt like the mushroom would

(09:58):
shown me really challenging things that Ihad gotten through in the past, so
you know, it was it wasalmost like this real of challenging things going
through my mind, and that soundsterrifying, but it wasn't. It was
just showing me, hey, you'vebeen okay before, even though you've dealt
with really complicated and difficult things,and you will be okay on the other
side of this. Yes, therewill be grief, you will be sad,

(10:22):
but you have a support system.You are you know, you have
the tools to get through tough situationsand this will be no different. And
on the other side of that,like little stretch of time, it was
roughly ten minutes where I felt,you know, anxiety and discomfort. I
felt the most immense piece in euphoriathat I've ever felt in my life,
and it was just the mushroom essentiallytelling me, Yeah, you're gonna be

(10:46):
okay, girl, It's gonna beall right. So it was really beautiful.
Is it when you're saying it,it's telling you you're going to be
okay? What is that? Whatis that? Like? Is that your
own subconscious speaking to What is that? Researchers have a really great way of
explaining like what actually happens during amagic mushroom trip, because I feel like
it feels so abstract to most peopleunless you've done some research like this.

(11:09):
But the model is called the Rebismodel r E b US and this was
created by doctor Carhart Harris and doctorCarl J. Friston, prolific psychedelic researchers,
and they're amazing And I love thismodel because it really explains things well.
So we think about when we werekids, our minds were super flexible,
and that's because we hadn't really formulatedour ideas about ourselves, so our

(11:31):
identity, and we hadn't formulated likehow we think the world operates around us.
But you know obviously that as weget into adulthood, those pathways of
thinking become really rigid, and that'sbecause we do form our identities and we
do form those thoughts about how theworld around us operates, and those those

(11:52):
belief systems can just become super rigid, and we often have negative beliefs about
ourselves or the world, and thatcan lead to problems that can cause or
can it can be part of depression, anxiety, body image issues, all
sorts of things. But they cameup with this really great analogy to explain
it, and I just love this, and I'm so glad we're on a
screen because it involves hand movements.But so in a normal state of consciousness,

(12:18):
we can think of that really rigidbrain as almost like a frozen pond.
So it's ice. Now if youwere to try to take a new
belief, Let's say you're trying tochange a thought that you have about yourself,
and you think of that as arock, and now you're going to
drop that on a frozen pond,it doesn't do anything. It just goes
funk. It doesn't gain entry,nothing happens, maybe cracks a little,
I don't know, but it doesn'treally nothing happens now on a psychedelic It's

(12:41):
like we have a thowed pond.Now we've got water. Now we take
that rock in the form of anew belief, we drop it in.
It gains entry and it causes aripple effect. And I just love that
analogy because I think it helps tounderstand like why does why do psychedelics potentially
work for things like PTSD, depressiontrauma stuff like that. It's because we're

(13:05):
able to actually change our minds inthat altered state of consciousness, and then
when we're back in a normal stateof consciousness, it sticks, you know.
I mean, it's good to dosome integration. So, like psychedelic
assisted therapy is often followed up withintegration where you're learning from what the insights
that came up for you were.You're learning from those. You can do

(13:26):
integration by journaling. You can joincommunity integration circles. There's plenty online that
you don't have to go anywhere oryou know, be in a state where
it's legal or anything like that.You can do integration with people on zoom
and stuff and so so, yeah, you do have to do some work,
but generally like that it has alasting effect, you know, and

(13:48):
you compare that to an antidepressant.Antidepressants you got to take pretty much every
day. And now we know thatpsilocybin research is showing that some of those
results, those benefits effects, especiallyon depression, can last for like six
months, even possibly up to ayear. We still need more research to
determine exactly how long, but it'sa lasting effect, which is really beautiful.

(14:09):
Yeah, it is. Those studiesare promising, but like you say
multiple times in the book, iswe need more, We need more studies
to really understand that and how howwhat the you know, efficacy really really
is. But it does seem thatthe majority of people who do have a

(14:33):
therapeutic controlled use, whether it's youknow, in the shamanic sense or you
know, with a clinical psychiatrist regulatingthat the amount and guiding them through their
trip, that they can come outof it positively change. One of the
things I thought was really interesting wasit seems like some conditions weren't improved,

(15:03):
but the person, their their behavior, or their mood or or or how
they dealt with it improved. Yeah, that's some things like the physicality wasn't
changed, but somehow, how doesthat how does how do how do you
explain that that the person can say, I didn't feel an improvement, but

(15:28):
yet I'm functioning better in the world. Yeah, And I think that was
very prevalent in a study on premenstrual dysphoric disorder, where it wasn't that
it less necessarily lessened the symptoms ofpre menstrual dysphoric disorder, but it did
make people more able to deal withtheir symptoms. And I, you know,
I don't necessarily have a direct,you know, explanation for that because

(15:48):
researchers haven't provided that yet. Butwhat we do know through research, especially
with depression and this this is reallyfascinating. So if we think about depression,
one of the most common things thatyou take would be an antidepressant or
which is usually a select of serotoninreuptake inhiboter or SSRI. There are SNRIs
as well, and there's all sortsof them, but SSRIs tend to blunt

(16:12):
your mood. That's how they work. So not only do they blunt your
lows, which is what people aregoing for, but they also blunt your
highs, and so that can beproblematic. But what we're what we're finding
through research on psilocybin, especially relatedto depression, is that instead of blunting
your mood, it makes you feelmore okay with your highs and lows.

(16:33):
And so I think that's going onin some of these other studies too.
So if we think about the premenstrual dyscoric disorder study, it made people
more able to deal with their symptoms, or you know, maybe it was
fibermyalgia, things like that. Youknow, there's all these different conditions that
I listed in the book and thenshared the research related to those, but
I think that is often what ispotentially happening. There are some other there's

(16:57):
some other research that show that itcan reduce the expression of certain pain signals
that happen in the body, andso people might be noticing lessening of pain
with certain chronic pain conditions. Again, we need more research on that to
really show that those benefits are there, but it is really exciting to see
that this research is going on.So that thing with the high and the

(17:22):
low, is that the zombie effectthat people feel when they're on antidepressants,
Like, is that what they're reporting, Like, there's not because I had
taken bidepressant like a long long,long time ago, and I was young
and I was still drinking a lot, so it wasn't gonna work for me.
They were not compatible. But Iremember that feeling of just kind of

(17:45):
being like, hm, like myhands, my hands were clammy, and
I just felt like not fully alive. It was a weird sensation. I
know, the feeling. I'm noton SSRI now, but I was in
my early thirties and I'm like fortyfive now. Just to give you some
contact, So it was a longtime ago. But I also noticed the

(18:06):
same thing, like I was alwayssomeone who if I were sitting and watching
a movie or something on TV andthen like a sappy commercial came on,
I'd get teary eyed, or ifI was watching an emotional movie, I
would get teary eye. This wasbefore I started taking the SSRIs. And
then when I was on the SSRI, I noticed that didn't happen, and
it bothered me because I liked thosemoments of like really feeling for characters in

(18:30):
a movie or you know again,just like getting a little weepy over a
commercial, just for in a goodway. And that was gone, and
so I think, you know,again, we're blunting our emotions when we're
on those medications, and there's nothingwrong with those medications. They're great medications,
and they're helping a lot of people, and they're necessary to be out
there. So I don't want toencourage anyone to go off of their medications

(18:52):
or with especially without talking their doctorand figuring out a safe way to taper
off, because it's also really hardto get it off of them. But
but I do want to encourage peopleif if you are suddenly, you know,
thinking that you're dealing with some depression, to have a conversation with your
doctor about what are the alternatives toyou know, these sorts of things in

(19:14):
terms of SSRIs. Are there otheralternatives? And clearly there are, you
know. And that's not to saythat psilocybin is right for everyone. It's
not, but it may be somethingthat that is appropriate for you in the
right context. Right, speaking ofthe SSR and tapering off, in the

(19:34):
book, you talk about comparing someonewho is either pregnant or having just given
birth and coming off of antidepressants versecompared to someone who was microdosing that I
forget her name, but you givea specific accept right. So I was

(19:57):
actually writing about her name is HilaryAgross. She's a really great activist.
She lives in Canada and she's alsoa PhD anthropology student. She's fabulous,
but she talks a lot about howso when she so when when she was
pregnant, she had to take herADHD medication. So there was ADHD medication

(20:18):
and she she stayed on it whilepregnant, and she had to make a
choice about that because it's one ofthose things that so, yes, there's
some research out there that if you'reon ADHD medication while pregnant, it could
potentially cause birth defects, but theresearches is not very good, like we
need more research on that, andit seems like it's a rare consideration.

(20:41):
But what she felt like is Ican't parent, I can't I can't be
pregnant and I can't parent properly ifI'm not on that medication. And so
she had to make an appropriate choicefor herself. And then I interviewed another
woman and her name is Michaela DalaMicah. She goes my Mama Dala Mico
on Instagram and she works with womenthat are trying to want to manage their

(21:03):
menstrual cycle using microdosing and things likethat and other plant medicines. But she
shared her story of she was pregnantand she chose to use psilocybin while pregnant
because it helped her abstain from fromalcohol. She said she had a problem
with alcohol and this actually helped herabstain from it. Now, I don't

(21:26):
know what doses she was taking orhow often while pregnant, but you know,
in the in the United States andelsewhere around the globe, we have
some blanket statements about, oh,you can't you can't be on anything if
you're pregnant. And I understand theblanket statements for safety reasons, because we
don't do clinical trials on pregnant people, and we don't, you know,
do clinical trials on breastfeeding people tosee how it affects their infants, or

(21:49):
we don't do clinical trials on infantslike that at all. And so so
yeah, it totally makes sense,and I understand why we have these blankets
states, but we also have indigenouswisdom to pull from. And so what
Hillary Agro was telling me is thatyou know, she's researched this at length
and there's no evidence of harm inindigenous communities of pregnant women using psychedelics or

(22:14):
specifically psilocybin, is what we weretalking about. Of course, we don't
have evidence of safety either, soI never want to be reductive about that,
but I do want to say thatit's important that we consider the health
of the pregnant person just as muchas we consider the health of a fetus.
And if that you know, pregnantperson is unhealthy, that affects the
fetus. And so we really needto be having be able to have some

(22:37):
more open conversations about that. Itshouldn't just be a blanket statement. It
may be we need to think aboutthe context of the individual. Yeah,
and there was a case where someonehad reported yeah, family to family Social
Services. Yeah so she yeah,go ahead, no, no, go

(23:00):
ahead. Yeah. So so thishappened to Hillary and it was related to
so so she's again she's a she'sa prolific activist in encouraging people to talk
about their drug use openly if they'resafe to do so. Of course,
but she she says like, hey, I you know, I'm a drug

(23:21):
user, and I'm you know,this person's a drug user. And it's
like if you had coffee this morning, You're a drug user because you had
caffeine. If you drank your glassof wine tonight before watching the Zoom,
you're a drug user. Right.So she's she's open about being a drug
user, and it's not that she'slike rampantly using a bunch of illicit substances,
but she says, I'm on ADHDmedication, I'm a drug user.

(23:44):
And her point is that we needto stop treating certain drug users as bad
quote unquote bad and other drug usersas okay because it's caffeine or whatever.
So she's a she's a staunch advocateof this, and someone used that against
her and they reported her to ChildProtective Services in Canada, and so she

(24:04):
had to go through this whole processof like explaining that, hey, no,
I'm an at I you know,I'm an activist, I'm a PhD
student. I talk about this openly. But the point here is that we
shouldn't be weaponizing children against women oryou know, parents in general based on

(24:25):
some of these things. You know, sometimes people you know, turn to
psilocybin, and there's a whole contingencyof moms on mushrooms out there. I'm
sure you've heard of Mom Moms onMushrooms by Tracy t. It's a great
community. They're openly talking about Hey, yeah, I'm micro dosing as a
parent, you know, and likesis and psychedelics, psychedelics, yes,

(24:48):
all of these different organizations that Ijust really appreciate, and I'm glad that
we're we're having conversations, We're openingthe floor for conversation, and I hope
that changes some of this stigma,especially around psychedelics. What do you think
men can take from this? Imean, obviously I'm reading the book and
I'm and I'm understanding the effect ona woman's body and mind in a better

(25:15):
way, which is which is enlightening. But besides that, besides like the
pure like physical science, Like,what what do you think men should take
away? Yeah? So I've hada lot of men reach out to me
or they talk to me at eventsand things like that, and they are
buying the book for you know,maybe it's a partner, a mother,
a sister, a friend, AndI love that because they are they're also

(25:37):
telling me like, hey, I'vehad experience with psychedelics, but I want
to be able to present this toyou know, whomever I'm giving it to
so that I am not going inand acting like the expert and like man
explaining this content about a female,you know, like the female body to
someone. And I love that,So I really appreciate that, And I
think that's a really important takeaway,is that, yeah, it's just because

(26:00):
you've had experience with a psychedelic doesn'tmean that you're the expert. Like I'm
not an expert, even even thoughI've written about it and dove into it
so much. You know, wewant to open the floor for a conversation
with people rather than like trying toexplain our expertise to them. And I
think that's important regardless of gender.But it also is really important in terms

(26:22):
of when a man is talking toa woman. You don't want to be
man explaining because it's rude and thething is like and oftentimes in defense of
men, they don't they don't meanit that way, Like you're kind of
programmed. Like So there's things momentsin my life where I've like done something
and then my wife is enlightened meand they're like, oh my lord,

(26:44):
like I can't believe. But thenI look back, I'm like, oh,
I see I see where that camefrom. You know, like there
was a time where I had,you know, made a phone call and
reported someone and it created more traumafor that as long you know, years
ago. But you know, I'vewill never make a mistake like that again.

(27:07):
And also I was in a reallybad place at the time. I
understand, I was around with somebad people that were not helpful. But
I did this thing and it's oneof those things that I just regret because
I know the trauma that I causedthat person, you know, And even
though I was well intended, Ithought that I was being well intended.
You know. I think we've allhad moments like that, and it's not

(27:30):
just it's not just men. Youknow, I'm guilty. I have my
own brand of it that I calledgensplaining. I like that. Well,
I'm appreciating your gen'splaining right now.So like I try not to do it,
if you know, but it happened, so, you know, right,
And then the other experience I'll i'llshare with you too, is is

(27:52):
earlier you kind of mentioned how mentend to do the drug more so than
women recreationally. Sure, that wasvery true true in my younger younger years,
but it was also like I wantto get in touch with the universe.
Man. But that then sometime laterI did use psilocybin, and the

(28:12):
intent was solely like I had anintention, like I really wanted to grow
from it, learn something from it. It was very and it was the
worst trip I had ever had.Oh no, it was. It was
terrible, And I think it wasan od situation. Okay, you had
too much, way too much,way too much. And I like to

(28:32):
share that because even though I dobelieve that there's many positives to all this,
that it should be used responsibly.Sure, yeah, absolutely, And
again I don't have any problem withpeople using magic mushrooms recreationally. I think
I think there can be, youknow, a benefit to that on occasion
to do that. But I thinkit's really important to if you are having

(28:56):
an intention to work on something,that it is done in a more therapeutic
context, meaning that you're not ata festival, you know, maybe you're
with a friend, or you're witha guide or a psychedelic assisted therapist and
all of that. And then onething too to keep in mind with if
you're if you have an intention ofthinking that you want to work on something

(29:18):
instead of setting that very specific intentionbefore you go into a journey. It
What I'm learning from other people andmyself as well, is that it can
be really helpful to just set theintention of being open minded, to let
the mushroom take you where it whereyour mind wants to take it. It's
really just working on your own mind. We think of the mushroom as controlling

(29:41):
things, but it's really what's happeningin your mind and is doing that.
And I think if you try toforce working on something, that can lead
to perhaps a negative experience, whereasif you just let that intention be to
let the situation unfold as it may, which can be hard. We like
to have control, right, youknow. I mean, I'm someone who

(30:02):
likes to be in control, andit can be hard to give up that
control, but it can lead tohaving a better experience. And that's proven
through research as well, or shownthrough survey research where people have reported that
when they had a bad journey,it was because they were trying to force
something and whatnot. You know,so yeah, or resist, I think,
and that's that's what happened to me, because I had like in my

(30:23):
mind what I wanted to achieve whichwasn't happening, and what was happening,
I was really like fighting it.And then that's where it was like something
snapped and I just went off ona really really bad trip. Yeah,
and I think that resistance can reallycrop up. And I'm sorry you had
a bad trip. That's not fun. But you know, I think that

(30:45):
where we can get in trouble withresistance, or where that can happen,
is that when our minds are tryingto force us under a psychedelic to look
at trauma, we're naturally going toresist that because in our normal states of
consciousness, we don't want to thinkabout our traumas and we don't actively think
about them because they're so triggering.And so when you're on a psychedelic,

(31:07):
of course trauma. You know,we know psychedelics can help with trauma,
and I can get I can explaina little bit about that, but I
can gen'splain, but I would loveto hear that actually, OK, yeah,
and so I'll dig into that.But I think what, you know,
what we what happens is that whenwe start to move towards looking at
that trauma on a psychedelic, wenaturally resist it because we think we're going

(31:30):
to have that trigger. But theimportant thing to remember, and this can
be really helpful, is that whenyou're on a psychedelic the trauma is not
as triggering, and generally the triggersare removed. And there's a really great
analogy that a researcher named doctor GregorHassler, I think he said in Germany.
His his analogy for why this happens, or why we can look at

(31:53):
trauma safely on a psychedelic is hecalls it the helioscope effect. So he
is an instrument that scientists use tolook at the sun and because you're not
supposed to look at the directly atthe sun, pro tip there. But
but this this instrument, we canthink of this as an analogy for when
you're on the psychedelic too. Sowe don't look at the sun directly because

(32:15):
we'll get burned, but with thehelioscope you can look at it without getting
burned. The same thing is truewith a psychedelic. It acts like a
helioscope for our trauma. We canon a psychedelic view our traumas from like
a safe distance and through a newlens, not get burned. It's almost
like we have these these safety filterson so you you won't get burned by

(32:36):
the trauma generally on a psychedelic,because you're you're going to have some things
happening in the brain that that thatare concerned with your fear center and your
anxiety, the center of your anxiety, which is the amygdala, And so
we we just have that sort oftaken away and with that new lens,
you can reprocess your trauma and thenwhen you're back in a normal state of

(32:58):
consciousness, it may not feel astriggering anymore. So that's a really beautiful
thing about psychedelics and trauma. Yeah, we hear that often about people being
able to step outside of themselves andkind of look like looking at their own
history, their own memories from theoutside in. And you're right, there's

(33:19):
a whole biochemistry which is you gointo detail which I can't get into right
now, but that explains like sortof like mechanisms right of how that is,
which which makes me wonder, wherewhere are you with the more like
mystical aspect of this, because becauseyou know, we talk about consciousness on
this podcast a lot, and I'malways kind of like back and forth because

(33:45):
Okay, so I have the nextguest, you know, we'll be talking
about physics, quantum physics, andand like I don't know if you're familiar
with like the two split experiment,Yeah, a little bit, a little
bit. Okay, So there's that, and then there's also something I learned
which I had no idea. Anothermystery of quantum mechanics is that, like

(34:05):
when you're looking at a pane ofglass, right, photons hit the glass,
four percent bounce back, the restgo through. They can't figure out
why there's like there's zero mathematical evidentialreason why a certain number of photons just
decide to bounce off the glass,you know. Like so there's these like

(34:29):
fundamental mysteries in like the physics ofour of our makeup. Then you have
something like the two split two splitexperiment, where it seems like the the
photons of the electrons choose when togo through a slit or not depending on
whether a human is looking at ite. It's insanity. And it doesn't even

(34:52):
matter that you could use a cameraand not be looking at it directly,
and it knows. So it's it'sit's one of those most the bizarre,
most bizarre, you know, physics, fundo physics facts that even like Neil
Degrass Tyson's like, yeah, Idon't know what it is, but I
can't. I can't say it's notreal because we can measure it over and
over again. So then that bringsus back to like consciousness. So what's

(35:15):
the interaction of consciousness with reality?So then yeah, when you're on something
like a psychedelic do you think thatyou're tapping into something else or do you
think that it's just all really likethe brain mechanism, you know, I
mean I think it's a bit ofseveral things all at once. Definitely what's

(35:35):
happening in the brain, and sothe neurobiology, the neuroscience of all of
that, and it's working on yoursubconscious but that doesn't mean that it's not
somehow mystical. And so I thinkthere's elements too where yeah, we could
be tapping into a level of consciousnesswhere we're all we all have this connection
to each other and the universe atlarge, but we're not able to really

(35:59):
act access that connection in normal stateof consciousness. Now, I have no
basis of research for that. I'mjust that's just kind of like a belief
I have about it is that,yeah, we are all connected and there's
all this energy happening, but youknow, we're not able to really access
that in a normal state of consciousness, is my guess. I don't know,
you know, but yeah, andI think do you feel that in

(36:21):
like a Youngian way, like apsychological parchetype or okay, I think so,
yeah. Yeah, It's really hardto explain, and I could probably
make my head spin thinking about ittoo much. But it's such a it
is such a magical thing. Andyou know, we talk about in psychedelics
there are mystical experiences, and youknow, I think that a level is

(36:44):
happening, just you know, withthe neurobiology. But then also there is
some element that we just can't explain. You know, you have people who
report being able to talk to theirancestors after, you know, when they're
in a journey and stuff, orlike seeing people they've never met and that
are ancient ancestors of theirs, Andyou know, I have no idea how

(37:06):
that happens, and I can't explainthat in a scientific way. I do
think it's pretty cool though, andfascinating. And then we also hear about
that the more mystical your experience is, or if it feels really mystical to
you, that that tends to besome of the most profound experiences people have.
No people people report that even ifthey've had a negative experience on a

(37:30):
psychedelic, that it's still one ofthe most profound experiences of their lives.
But what also elevates that profoundness iswhen they do have a mystical experience.
And that could be so many differentthings. Could be a level of mysticism,
and again, it could be thatfeeling of what's called oceanic boundlessness,
that connection to and I think that'sa Freudian term and there's a French mystic

(37:52):
that coined it with him, butit's you know, that oceanic boundlessness is
that sort of connection that we feelto others when we're on a psychedelic that
we don't necessarily feel in a normalstate of consciousness. Although it can be
lasting. You can feel that connectionafter you're done with your journey. Yeah,
it kind of hangs hangs with youfor a little while. Yeah,

(38:13):
So how do we what's the benefitof micro do dosing versus taking higher doses
of psilocybin. That's a great question. I think that I think they can
support each other. So I'm ahuge advocate for going and having a deeper
dose, so a macro dose,So thinking like three grams or something like

(38:35):
that, you can start small andwork your way up. I think I
may I may have done nine onthe show. Oh my gosh, that
is a heroic I don't know whatit was, but that's what it felt
like, right, Wow, Okay, yeah, that was a Terrence McKenna
thing, the heroic heroic heros yeh, one of those guys. I couldn't
remember who was McKenna or not,but I thought so. But yeah,
so I think like that you geta lot of insights from doing a macro

(39:01):
dose. So again like three gramsor so, you know, a heroic
dose is over five grams, andI wouldn't recommend anyone start out with that
or anything like that, but youcan eventually get there. But with then
with with micro dosing, that's reallylike a tenth of a gram, so
it's so mini skool. So justexplaining to people who aren't aware so that

(39:22):
when you're on that many micro dosthere you aren't really feeling those psychedelic effects,
like you're not having visuals or Imean, you would be safe to
drive and everything like that, whichI would not recommend on a macro dose.
Definitely, not on a heroic dose. No, definitely no, that
would be unsafe. But I coulddrive on want someone don't do it.

(39:47):
It was on the way to seethe Blair Witch Projects, so that was
nic and we had no idea whatwe were getting into. I know that
sounds like quite a story. Ithink we all remember, like the day
we saw the Blair Witch Project,don't we. I think, So that's
so funny to say that, likeI think most people do. Yeah,
yeah, I mean I was.I had a date with a guy and

(40:07):
he took me there on his motorcycle. We watched the Blair Rich and then
I never saw him again. Imean on purpose on my part, but
anyway, Yeah, I think becauseit was so novel was it truly was?
And I thought it was real becausethere was that, you know,
it was like found footage and itwas advertisments before the days of like heavy
internet use where you would learn thesethings. I was just like, oh,

(40:30):
this is like a real footage andthis really happened. And then I
realized, oh, okay, nevermind the movie. But yeah, no,
no, you're fine. In termsof microdosing, what I think is
really beneficial is, you know,choosing one of the protocols to follow.
There's a couple that I list inthe book that are the most common,

(40:51):
like the Stammet stack and the Fatominprotocol or are pretty common ones to follow,
and that can be really useful fortapping back into some of your insights.
Again, you're not going to behaving psychedelic effects on like visuals on
a micro dose, but it canreconnect you to your macro dose, if
that makes sense. It can bringback some of those insights if they've faded

(41:13):
for you. And also I thinkit can be just a tool in between
macro doses, so you know,you don't you don't want to be macrodosing
constantly or or you're not going tobe able to work, and you know,
it might be really fun, butit's probably not a great idea.
Be plus, you would build buildup a tolerance and over time it would
it would lose its efficacy for you. So you want a macro dose,
like I recommend something like once acorner, once every six months, maybe

(41:36):
once a year, depending on theperson and their individual needs. It's going
to differ from person to person.And then microdosing in between that if you
feel like that's something that you wantto do, and I think that it
can also be a really great toolfor behavior change. So in you know,
people use psychedelics a lot for liketrying to make a behavior change,

(41:57):
especially an addicting behavior, whether that'ssmoking, some alcohol used disorder, opioid
used to disorder. People are turningto psychedelics for that, and we are
getting some really good research, especiallywith psilocybin, for all of those things,
and so it but it doesn't happenmagically. It's not like you're just
going to I'm going to do amacrodose and then I'm not going to drink
anymore. It's just not how itworks. I mean, you may find

(42:19):
that you have fewer drinking days afterusing a psychedelic, but part of it
is also what you're you know,leaning into your own motivation and making sure
that you're actually taking part in thatbehavior change. So you know, saying,
even if you have a craving likefor an alcohol, then being like,
oh, you know what, I'mnot I don't really need this or

(42:39):
do I need it? Or likewhat are my what's the thought process about
that? And so I think microdosing can really help support some of those
behavior changes that you're trying to make, especially if that was your goal with
going into you know, trying apsychedelic. You used a term I'm trying
to like go through my notes andfind it. I can't. It was

(43:01):
instead of alcoholism, you used alcoholalcohol use disorder? Yeah? Is that
is that the new vernacular for?Yeah? Right? Yeah, So you
know, we know that it isa disease, and it's less it's not
necessarily it's like not a choice.You know, it's a chronic disease that

(43:22):
occurs, and as you go throughyou, as you develop alcohol use disorder,
which can happen for a number ofreasons, you really get locked into
that cycle. Now that's not tosay that you don't have choices. Of
course we all have choices, butyou know, alcohol use disorder is just
a really clinical term rather than usingsomething like instead of saying, oh,

(43:44):
that person's an alcoholic or we sayopioid used disorder now too, as opposed
to that person's an addict or ajunkie, it's just a more professional way
of saying something and a kinder wayand understanding that. Again, even with
with especially with opioid use disorder,once you're once you're locked into that addiction,
it is very hard to get outof that without assistance and in some

(44:07):
form or fashion. You know,in your in your research, how much
do you think the addictive part ofit is the brain versus the like Some
say it's a natural genetic susceptibility.Yeah, I mean I think we all
have. I mean, I meannot all of us have that genetic predisposition.

(44:29):
People. Yeah, people have thatfor specific reasons genetically. But then
you know, even if someone whodoesn't have that predisposition through genetics is you
know, suddenly using heroin or takingopioid pills of some sort like percosi or
something over time that messes with youryour reward pathways, so your dopamine and

(44:54):
stuff, and so you're getting lessand less of the dopamine that you're the
you're you know seeking by you know, using a substance. The dopamine hit
doesn't really give you the same effectsanymore, but you keep going for it.
And then, of course, withespecially with opioid use disorder, if
you are, if you stop allof a sudden, you're going to get

(45:16):
dope sick essentially, and that isI mean, I don't have firsthand experience,
but I've had friends who've had it, and it's you know, a
miserable, awful experience to be dopesick. And so you just all you're
doing at that point rather than actuallygetting high, is just you're seeking the
drug to prevent that dope sickness becauseit's so miserable for your body. And

(45:37):
that's why. And it's actually dangerousto just quit cold turkey. So so
that's why people need to go totreatment centers for these sorts of things.
But there is there's got to bethat psychological aspect to it though, of
course, yeah, because yes,some people can get addicted because they were
over over prescribed. But then know, like for myself when I was younger,

(46:01):
I use alcohol as a coping mechanism. Sure yea psychologically and then eventually
you use it enough then then thenit's like the body, you know,
you need those dopamine hits, andthe only way you can get that is
by using right absolutely, And Ithink we can think about it too with
our phones, like how many ofus are addicted to just like scrolling through

(46:22):
Instagram or whatever. I mean,I admit that I do it. And
you know, you're just you're sittingthere, you're scrolling, and you've seen
what you needed to see, butthen you start refreshing, and then you
refresh just two seconds ago, andyou do it again, and then you
put your phone down, and thentwo seconds later you pick it back up
and you open all the apps andyou look at it and you're like,
this addicting thing. And it's becauseit's hijacking our rewards system with the dopamine.

(46:47):
So we keep thinking we're going toget like some special thing pop up
because we're looking for that fix,but it never really happens, and that
hijacks your reward pathways, and sothen you get less joy when you're out
like doing something that you normally loveto do, Like you get less joy
from hanging out with your friends,you know. And that's why we're grabbing
our phones while we're sitting there rightwith our friends, and we're like,

(47:09):
oh, I'm going to scroll throughthis, but I'm sitting here, I
have a face to face conversation withsomeone, and so it's just these substances
can just really hijack our reward systems. And luckily magic mushrooms are just not
like that. It's not addicting.And do they, like how much do
they help with that? Because likeI like, no, I still comfort

(47:30):
eat, you know, yeah,and that sort of thing, like does
the microdosing help with that kind ofbehavioral change or it does? Yeah.
I was just on a big microdosingforum where we had a panel discussion with
some microdose people have been micro dosingfor quite some time, and we had
some experts on there and I wasmoderating the panel, and so many of

(47:52):
them talked about things the behavior changes, whether that was numbing out with food,
you know, comfort eating, orsomeone someone talked about alcohol cessation and
you know, moving away from fromconstantly drinking, and and it can happen
just because I My theory is thatwe because psychedelics tend to make us feel

(48:15):
more okay with our present selves.So even so in terms of micro dosing
too, you know, you're justyou're okay, just more living in the
moment rather than reaching for the thingthat numbs you out. Now, does
that doesn't mean that you don't haveto do some work Obviously you have to
consciously make choices to abstain from thething that you were using to numb out,

(48:37):
but you may be less likely tocrave that thing, whether that's you
know, the comfort food or it'suh, you know, online shopping,
if that's something that you're like overdoingor whatever, and you're just using that
to you're adding things to your cartto numb out. Right, it happens.
And so I think that micro dosingcan help you really lean into those

(48:57):
behavior changes a little bit more becauseagain, it really helps you just function
in the present, which is reallybeautiful. Yeah, and it's I mean,
thankfully laws are starting to loosen upa little bit in some areas,
but it's still a schedule in drugs. That's that's an issue. And you
make a really good point regarding fentanyl, because we've demonized fentanyl like to the

(49:19):
you know, umpteenth degree, andit's like, wait a minute, let's
take a look in the mirror.This is what we did with crack cocaine,
this is what we did with heroin. We turned these into these evil
entities. We criminalized it and wherewe've destroyed more lives by attacking the drug
users and making and demonized in thedrug And I'm with you. I think

(49:44):
we should take the way of Portugaland yeah, decriminalize all of it,
right, because if you think aboutit, the reason that we have fentanyl
on the streets, like fentanyl isused in the hospitals as you know,
a pain control drug and everything likethat. And so that's why it was
invented in the first place. Butwhy is it being illegally, you know,

(50:05):
shuttled all over It's because it's easierto transport and sell than it is
heroin. Than heroin is you know, you're you'll drug dealers just have an
easier time getting it out there.And but it's you know, it's a
deadly drug when taken in the wrongcontext, not in a hospital mainly,
and or in a prescription situation thatit's controlled and safe. And so it's

(50:27):
out there because we criminalize heroin,and if we had never done that,
then fentanyl likely wouldn't be out there. And we can think back to so
Hillary Agro brought this to my attention, and then because she's just such a
brilliant activist, but she was talkingabout what's called the iron law of prohibition.
So if you look at anything we'veany substance that we've prohibited, all

(50:47):
we end up with is a worsesubstance. So when we prohibited alcohol way
back when, you know, notthat I was alive then, but what
did we get. We got likeextremely bad, dangerous moonshine that made people
go blind, right, And thenwe can think about it too in the
context of cannabis. That's not that'snot a figure of speech. People like

(51:07):
literally did go blind. It's wild, And then we can think about it.
This happening too with cannabis. Soyou know, we've we've outlawed before
when cannabis was broadly illegal, eventhough we've now we've got legalization for a
large swath of the nation. Butyou know, if we think back to

(51:28):
the early days, before we startedto get some of that legalization, people
started to develop some of these syntheticversions of cannabis, Like I feel like
one was called K two or somethinglike that. People died from that if
I recall correctly, and or theywere at least hospitalized. But I think
there were a couple of deaths fromsome of these synthetic versions of cannabis.
No one's actually ever died from normalcannabis like normal THHC, and and then

(51:52):
we also have a lot of problems. Now there's actually research out there now
to support that. In states wherecannabis is illegal, which is where I
live. It's illegal in Tennessee,I mean, you can get CBD,
and but now we've got Delta A, right, and so that's what everyone
is turning to. And so instates like Tennessee, we actually have more

(52:13):
emergency visits for things like Delta eightor any kind of synthetic cannabis because Delta
eight is technically synthetic by the timeyou extract THHC from a hemp plant,
it's relatively synthetic in most cases,at least Delta eight, the Delta eight
version is. And so we actuallyhave more emergency room visits of young kids

(52:34):
getting into Delta eight or other syntheticcannabis rather than if they in states where
cannabi where normal THHC, you know, Delta nine is legal, they turn
to that and they're not being hospitalizedfor that. And so it's really interesting
to me that the more we prohibitdrugs, the more we actually create crime
and problems and debt, overdose deaths, and you know, emergence, seep

(53:00):
room visits and all of that.If we just let people do what they're
gonna do, uh, that wouldwork itself out. And I know that's
a strong stance to take, butI'm a firm believer and the research shows
it. Yeah, as far asembracing psychedelics, you know, cross sexually,

(53:25):
what is the difference between using apsychedelic job a drug to enhance one's
romantic sexual life and just a sexuallife, because in the studies have shown
that people who have sex are generallyhappier. Rights, but is there a

(53:45):
difference when you're using a drug likethat? Is there a risk especially for
women, you know, when it'snon loving and just sexual. Hmm,
Yeah, I'm not sure. LikeI would say that, the thing that's
really important to consider is that apsychedelic can make you more vulnerable and more

(54:07):
I mean, obviously it makes youmore vulnerable, but it also makes you
more open to suggestibility. So thatcomes back to that Rebus model. We're
trying to get beliefs in our brain. It's much easier to do when you're
on a psychedelic and that can happenwith if there's someone in power over you,
you know that can happen. Thesexual assault can happen, of course
in that context. And I meanit can happen in any industry. So

(54:30):
I certainly am not vilifying the psychedelicindustry for it, but it is happening
in the psychedelic industry too, andso I just think that's a really important
consideration. And sexual assault happens toany all people of all genders. It's
not just a female problem or womenproblem, and it's often underreported in men,

(54:51):
and so you know, that's areally important thing to consider too.
But in terms of like, can'psychedelics enhance your sex life if we're talking
about consensual sex here, yeah,I believe. So I did talk to
a really wonderful neuroscientist. Her nameis doctor Michelle Ross, and we talked
about she had she had written aboutpsychedelics and sex, and so I reached
out to her to interview her,and she had some really great insights,

(55:15):
and mainly that she was saying thatcertainly, going if a woman is struggling
with sexual functioning, you know,lack low libido, all of that,
if you go off and do yourown psychedelic journey and then come back and
like are with your partner, youmay find that you're able to more voice
your needs, or you might feelmore confident in the bedroom. And I

(55:37):
think there's definitely some truth to that. It's not that psychedelics or it's not
that psilocybin is going to be likesome sort of classic aphrodisiac. It's not
really. Yeah, it's not likeChacola it or like I guess people call
oysters. It's not like that.But the other thing, there are two
things that are protective against female sexualdysfunction. One of them is intimate partner

(56:00):
communication. And so if if youcan facilitate that intimacy by having that oceanic
boundlessness experience, that could facilitate moreintimate partner communication with your partner. And
it's not that you have to againdo psilocybin with your partner. You can
go off and do your own journeyand come back and then feel more connected

(56:23):
just naturally because of that. Andthen the other thing that is protective against
female sexual dysfunction, and again it'sjust a guarantee that it's protective, but
having a positive body image can reallyreally help be protective against female sexual dysfunction.
And so we do know that psilocybinis being studied right now for eating

(56:43):
disorders. Specifically, they're doing clinicaltrials right now for anarexia and orbosa,
and we're getting promising results from that. Learning that psychedelics do tend to help
with with body image in some context, it's helpful with binge eating disorder.
I believe we're being that it's beingstudied for that right now as well.
And so I think that there's alot of promise there to help with with

(57:07):
the with female sexual dysfunction or helppeople boost their sex lives in you know,
in a safe way as long asthey're not you know, being as
long as there's not someone in aposition of power over you and they're you
know, like a therapist or somethingthat is getting you on your psilocybin and
then is you know, assaulting you. Obviously that's a bad thing. So

(57:30):
yeah, and it's like maybe apartner, partners should not necessarily do a
trip together, right Like, maybethey can, but maybe that's not the
best thing, and that and that'sokay, Yeah, I think yeah,
And I think that's okay. Ithink I think you can do a trip

(57:51):
with your partner if you've been withyour partner for a while. Like this
is in a new relationship some somebodywho just met five minutes ago at the
bar. You know, it's probablynot part you know, the best situation
to get into. But yeah,like I you know, I interviewed a
couple or I interviewed a woman andher stories in my book where she and
her partner do useed psilocybin together.You know, they've had a long relationship

(58:14):
and then worked up towards doing thatand they had they set boundaries around it
and didn't just jump into it.Yeah they're not just jumping into it,
you know and stuff. But youknow, as an example of someone who
didn't do it with her partner.So I'm married and I went, you
know, did psylocybin with a randomdude of the cabin in the woods.
Not a random dude, but youknow, I just make a fun of
it. But yeah, I youknow, I went and did psilocybin elsewhere,

(58:37):
and then I came back and Ifelt like exponentially more connected to my
husband. And it wasn't that Ifelt like we were disconnected before. I
just didn't realize the level of connectionthat I could get to. And and
I felt it's not like he didanything. I just like did psilocybin and
came back and it was just allme. It was like I the walls

(58:57):
had gone down for me, youknow, and that was really beautiful.
It's kind of like we I feellike we all get a build up of
static and you know, and justlittle by little by little, and you're
just living with it and it's awhile to be able to kind of clear
that out, yes, and thenopen up. Yeah, right, it's

(59:19):
just this, it's this beautiful andpathogen that helps us feel connected to people
and yeah, yeah, it's gorgeous, awesome, all right, Jennifer,
thank you? So what just flewby? Like, yes, thank you
for having me totally. If youcan leave us with one thought, anything
at all, it doesn't even haveto be the subject. What would it
be? Oh okay, Yeah.So my guide shared this really profound snippet

(59:45):
of information with me and it actuallycomes from a poem and I can't remember
the name of the poet, butit it is the the the love that
you withhold is the pain that youcarry. And I just think that's such
a beautiful because it's so true,like when we are withholding love or when
we are putting up walls so thatwe don't get hurt, it's because we've

(01:00:07):
been hurt before and we carry painrelated to that. And if we can
let go of those walls, thenwe open up all this love not only
for ourselves but for others. Andso I felt like that was a really
beautiful thing. Yeah, it's likeSimon and gar Uncle. I am an
island, right, like right,Yeah, if you're a rock, people

(01:00:28):
are just hurting themselves against you.If you're an island, people have to
do all this effort to try toget to You're causing a lot of pain.
Yeah, I can understand that fromyour pain. Yeah, thank you
so much. I really appreciate it. So if you want to find out
more about Jennifer and her work,go to Jennifer Chessick dot com, Jennifer

(01:00:50):
two Ends and Chessick c H E. S a K dot com and of
course on Instagram at gin with oneEnd, Chessick, at gen Chessicka Instag.
Jenna, thank you so much.I really appreciate how good night you
too. Thank you so much.All right, and thank you everyone for
joining tonight. I really appreciate youas always. If you are listening on
iTunes, Please rate and comment,give a review. I really appreciate that

(01:01:15):
all that feedback helps continue to growthis podcast, and it is growing steadily
and that's thanks to you. Ireally appreciate it. And for everyone who
missed tonight's show, you can alwayscatch the live broadcast on the UNEX Network
at eleven pm Pacific time two amEastern Standard time on Fridays. Until next

(01:01:36):
time, everyone, peace in loveand of course live in the Mystery seven