Parapsychology, Telekinesis, Spirits, and Parallel Consciousness with Loyd Auerbach

Joining me is Loyd Auerbach to discuss mind over matter potentialiaties. Loyd firmly believes that there isi evidence to support the ability to use our mind to manipulate the physical environment around us.

World-recognized paranormal expert and parapsychologist Loyd Auerbach, MS., has 44 years of investigating the paranormal and over 40 years teaching courses in Parapsychology. With thousands of media appearances, he is Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations, President of the Forever Family Foundation, an Adjunct Professor at Atlantic University, and President of the Board of Directors of the Rhine Research Center where he teaches online Parapsychology courses through their Education Center. He’s the author/co-author of 9 books on the paranormal for the general public including ESP Wars: East & West, Psychic Dreaming, and the classic ESP, Hauntings and Poltergeists: A Parapsychologist’s Handbook. He is also co-author of the paranormal mystery novels Near Death: A Raney/Daye Investigation and the second in the series, After Life. He is a professional mentalist and Past President of the Psychic Entertainers Association, performing as Professor Paranormal, and also does his thing as an occasional chocolatier. Currently you can see him in episodes of The UnXplained or Surviving Death on Netflix.
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Episode Transcript

(00:03):
You're listening to Mystic Lounge with AlanB. Smith, rebroadcast on the ONEX
Network Thursdays at eleven pm Pacific Fridaysat two a m. Eastern. However

(00:33):
you are and whenever you are,Welcome, good souls to Mystic Lounge.
I'm Alan B. Smith. Thankyou for joining us tonight. I have
a very special guest. His nameis Lloyd Auerbach, a world recognized power
normal expert and parapsychologists. So tonightwe'll be testing the limits of consciousness and
what your potentiality might be. It'sreally interesting, very fascinating. I want

(00:57):
to send a special thanks to myfriend ray Ko now for helping to make
tonight happen. Love me, Mariah, thank you so much. If you
miss this stream, you can alwayscatch it on a podcast version wherever you
listen to podcasts, or on theunex network, where will rebroadcast Friday's two
am Eastern Standard time Thursday's eleven pmPacific time. And of course this is

(01:22):
one podcast of two on this channel, So if you're much more into uphology,
UFOs in particular, and that fieldof study, on the same channel,
we also have coffee and UFOs andsome of those recent guests include Gary
Nolan, doctor Gary Nolan, doctorRobert Davis, Paula Harris, and Stephen

(01:42):
Bassett, and it's so many more. I'm really lucky to have conversations with
these very special and intelligent people.And I'm very lucky that you all join
every week and you follow on thepodcast, because I really appreciate your feedback
and your questions. This is aplace of growth, is a podcast,
and I use this not in theNew Age way, expanding our consciousness and

(02:06):
trying to be better people. Andevery time I come to this seat every
week, it's, you know,it's kind of, for lack of a
better word, my church. Let'ssay, it's my place that I come
to that keeps my mind thinking aboutthe next week, what topics are important
that we should be covering that willhelp us all evolve as individuals, whether

(02:27):
it's pursuing paranormal investigations, UFO investigations, or just our overall wellness. So
thank you all for being here.Lloyd Auerbach is a world recognized paranormal expert
and parapsychologist. He has forty fouryears of investigating the paranormal and over forty
years teaching courses in parapsychology. Heis Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations,

(02:51):
President of the Forever Family Foundation,an adject proNT professor at Atlantic University,
and President of the Board of Directorsof the Rhine Research Center, where
he teaches online parapsychology courses through theirEducation Center. He's the co author author
of nine books on the paranormal.He is a professional mentalist and past president

(03:14):
of the Psychic Entertainers Association, performingas Professor Power Normal and also does this
thing as an occasional chocolate tier.And there's a meaning behind the chocolate tier,
which we'll talk to him about injust a moment. Currently, you
can find him in episodes of TheUnexplained and Surviving Death. Lloyd. Welcome

(03:36):
to Mystic Lounge. Thanks very much. All, Yeah, thanks for being
here. I really appreciate it.So, you know, I'm going to
jump into this really quick. We'regonna be talking about obviously all aspects of
parapsychology. It's a very broad fieldof study, but it all centers around
the mind and what the mind iscapable of doing. Absolutely, why chocolate

(04:00):
well, you know, um,it's not directly related at all. There
is a little bit of relation thatI'm a food guy, and uh,
you know, we call ourselves foodistswith an HI stood not foodie. No,
we're foodists. And back living inoutside of San Francisco, we're in

(04:21):
wine country, so I mean allover the Bay Areas wine country. And
I got introduced to some really goodchocolate back in the nineties at a couple
of wineries. This is when Scharfenbergerstarted spreading across the country and really spurred
on the artisan chocolate maker. Iguess milieu in chocolate making here in the
States, so I'd never had greatchocolate, and then I started really learning

(04:44):
about it and eventually started doing somechocolate tastings for people, started working in
a book that one publisher had askedme to write a book about my journey.
She unfortunately ended up selling the companyand they didn't want the book.
But in the process I got toknow a lot of chocolate tiers and chocolate
makers, and one of them said, you got to take a course to
learn how to make chocolate. SoI got a certificate as a professional chocolate

(05:09):
tier through a court, through aschool that is well known renowned for doing
that, and for a while Iwas making my own chocolate and selling it
a little bit really didn't go allin. That's something I'm planning on from
our retirement at some point. Andthat business is called Haunted by Chocolate because
I am. But there is thislike there is a consciousness connection here,
there is a consciously. A DeanRaydon, who is a well known sub

(05:32):
consciousness researcher and pari psychologist with thepseudo Knew Whattic Sciences years ago background,
I think with around two thousand andfive, did a pilot study based on
the idea that food made with loveis better for you, or we'll do
something for you. So he hadan experiment done with some chocolate from a
company out in Hawaii where multiple therewere four sets of the chocolate from one

(05:57):
batch, and each set there wasone control roll set nothing happened to it.
The other three had different forms ofintention rituals or prayer given to the
chocolate that this sample of chocolate wouldbe more energizing and mood enhancing. And
then a really unfortunate group of volunteershad to have some really good chocolate twice

(06:18):
a day fill out mood surveys andit was all a double blind study,
and when Dean started analyzing the datanot knowing which group or rich individual had
which there was a sixty seven percentmood enhancement that was recorded in one set
of chocolate and close in the othertwo that turned out to be above what

(06:39):
that control sample was. So wedo put something into our food. He
did another study with t by theway, same kind of study, same
thing. So that also makes youand something I think Dean pointed out,
that means that the thing you don'twant to eat is fast food produced by
some teenager who hates his job.Okay, well I noticed something missing.

(07:04):
Coffee. Yeah, coffee has Idon't know the Dean has done coffee,
but absolutely, I mean coffee.I'm a coffee guy too. I actually
I'm kind of hooked on one localroastery quite a bit. So, well,
you know, Tyler Henry was onMister Lounge and I asked him about
coffee, and he said he actuallygives better readings when he has a little

(07:24):
bit of coffee. Before and I'veknown psychics, including somebody I worked with
for years before she passed away,who I had recommended a really good dark
chocolate to her and she was doingthat eating a little bit right before every
reading, and she said that everythingwas brighter and more colorful as she was
doing the readings. And Mariah's inchat. Mariah, if you're listening,

(07:45):
I'm curious if you have any commenton a coffee. I know you and
I have talked about this, butI'd like to hear what you have to
say now. So, Lloyd,what what is it about our mind that
initially caught your attention that was differentthan what you can learn in convention studies.
So I've been interested in this subjectof psychic phenomena since I was a

(08:05):
kid, A little kid. Ifortunately discovered, probably when I was about
twelve or thirteen, the books onParis psychology by researchers that happen to be
in the library and the same sectionof the Dewey desmol system as vampires and
werewolves and witchcraft, you know,And what my growing up I was and
still am a comic book and sciencefiction nerd. As we can tell behind

(08:28):
you right, yes, as youcan tell. That's absolutely can tell that
you can see my star Trek,the next generation Tarot cards right behind the
effect and my action figures. SoI was coming at this this topic from
a perspective of human potential, becausethat's what's talked about comic books and science

(08:48):
fiction, not horror, which iswhere a lot of the ghost Hunters seemed
to come from. And that putme on a different track altogether, I
mean really in the science track,and the idea that was had into me
by the research and the findings ofthe research that they kept on reading that
we have more potential, our consciousnessas much more potential than the mainstream but

(09:09):
the world. What are cultures,It's not only science, it's culture in
general. Will tell us that wehave we can do and that and the
fact that this was a mystery,I mean, what are these experiences and
what causes them? Who are thebest people to have them? Can we
learn all those questions which we stilllook at in Paris psychology our mysteries and

(09:31):
I wanted to see if I couldkind of contribute to solving those mysteries.
Well, you know, since youbrought up culture, let me let me
ask you this. So religions oftengive us stories of individuals in the past
and usually in the far past,that had these abilities to do amazing things.
Right, they also will say,well, you can commune with your

(09:54):
higher power, whatever that is,and receive information from them. Why is
all that possible? And yet they'renot encouraging or practicing the exercise of our
ability to exert activity, rather thanjust being receptive of a mystical being or

(10:16):
some ability that is long gone.You know, if you're across culturally,
there are cultures around the world thathave traditions of certain types of experiences and
abilities that special people are born withand may apprentice to someone, but they
accept Many other cultures and their religionsaccept various forms of psychic experience as normal.

(10:39):
I mean, there's nothing paranormal inmany cultures around seeing a ghost or
having a premonition or reading people orthings like that. It's all normal,
and actually in our culture it shouldbe normal if you go by the numbers
alone. Religion is a different situationbecause you know, there's a lot of
fear in many religions, and yes, in the past of Christianity and a

(11:03):
lot of other religions, there arespecial people chosen by God or gods to
have these powers, but anyone else, no, no, no, no,
no, you have to be special. In fact, some of the
Catholic saints, people like Saint Josephor Kupertino, who was supposedly able to
levitate and even fly a bit.Had he not been in the clergy already,

(11:24):
the odds already probably have been burnedat the stake. So it's really
a very biased system in many respects. So it's so what we're getting at
is it's not just about the scientificcommunity having a bias, it's also the
what should be of the mystical orreligious spiritual community. Well yeah, and
well, let's face it, there'snot a lot of mysticism in many forms

(11:46):
of the main religions today, andor spirituality for that matter, in some
respects, and some of the religionshave a real fear base to them where
you know, I've spoken in placesin the Bill Belt over the years in
colleges and always had a few studentsin the class in the room. Fortunately
no protesters. All I know peoplewho have been protested against telling me that

(12:11):
you know, I'm perpetrating you know, perpetuating or excuse me, the word
of the devil of Satan, youknow, and the whole bit that setting
the stuff is evil, that psychicsare evil. It's like, uh,
and then you know, I havereally good ways of handling that. But
it's something that is in the culturein certain religions. It is actually put

(12:33):
out there in pop culture as well. I mean, there are people I
know a lot of the ghost huntingworld they tell you do not have a
Wuiji board in your house because it'sgoing to bring in some evil spirits.
I got a dozen. I gottwo sitting right next to me, right
here in the room. You know, it's a board with letters on it.
It doesn't do anything. So whatdoes that mean? Is it is

(12:54):
it our mind that's doing it?What's happening when people make those claims,
something's being conjured. Well, inthe case of the Wuigi board, it's
because they saw it in a moviecalled The Exorcist back in the nineteen seventies.
And yes, you know some peoplethere are stories floating around about teenagers
who play with the Ouiji boards andthey have say say terrible things and the

(13:18):
board flies across the room, andmost of those yes, the teenagers probably
did say terrible things. I wouldput out there that it's probably one teenager
who's basically trying to scare the othersin that group, or the most part.
I should know this. I didthat to my friends when I was
a teenager as well. I thinka lot of us did. So the

(13:39):
stories are they're not real in thatsense. The Wuiji boards just a tool.
Like actually, when ghost hunters doEVP, they're asking for it for
communication. That's what Auigi board is. Well, if an EVP is possible,
why couldn't Auigi board be, Well, it can be. The difference

(14:00):
difference is, first of all,they're asking for communication, so you know,
if they're asking communication the Wigi boardand they're worried about getting evil spirits,
they should worry about that when they'redoing EVP. Also, there's not
really a difference. The difference though, is that with the Wigi board,
people have their fingers on a planchet on the pointer, and it's very
similar to using a pendulum. It'ssomething called the idiomotor response. If you're

(14:22):
not consciously pushing it, the unconsciousmind is actually moving it around. It
is possible that you're unconscious could getcommunication from a spirit, if there is
one, but it is much morelikely that what you're getting is given the
setting and what your intention is,you're getting a story, and the story
is based on what you're hoping youget in that communication, not factual information.

(14:45):
Intention has a whole lot to dowith all of this, doesn't it.
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I meanI've heard you speak about, you
know, telekinesis, or the abilityto move things with your mind. I
mean, do you do you really? I think that that is something that
is achievable by I don't know,some percentage of the population. It's achievable

(15:09):
in different ways by a lot ofdifferent people. Actually, i've years ago,
back in the nineties, I workedwith a gentleman by the name Martin
Kayden who was a science and sciencefiction writer. In fact, he co
created More or Less Creative to sixmillion dollars man. It was his book
Cyborg that the show was based on, and Marty was able to move things.
I mean he did telekinesis. Itdid what we call psychokinesis under control

(15:31):
conditions. He was also consulting theNASA, and a bunch of his NASA
buddies had ran him through the Ringermore or less under better control conditions,
and we actually together did some workshopsand typically about half people were able to
move the objects throughout the set thevery session, So it's about half of

(15:52):
the people in that case. AndI've done a bunch since Marty passed away.
But also, you know, there'sthe idea of the spoon bending part,
the idea that you know, wecan do metal bending. And while
some of what happens at those partiesthose events tend to be people in altered
states not realizing how much pressure theyput on the spoons and forks and things,

(16:12):
there are some indicators from metallurgists who'vedone analysis that many of the easy
to bend easy the unusual forms thathave popped up and including witnessed spoons and
forks kind of flopping over, thatthere's changes in the metal structure itself at
the visible level under a microscope.Actually, so, where where's the controversy?

(16:36):
Well, yeah, where's the controversywith the likes of Uri Geller?
Because remember the Johnny Carson bit.You know, yeah, I mean you
can fake it. It's it isnot hard to fake it, and it
doesn't happen all the time. Um. And you know, the one thing
that is important to know about Uriefor example, about Geller, the controversy
was really conjured up more by theamazing Randy than it was by Geller himself

(16:59):
and or anybody else around him.Under he's been able to do things under
better controlled conditions. The fact is, though, if you were to ask,
I'm not sure if you ask himright now, but I've I've met
or had a bunch of times.At one point, we were doing a
Japanese TV show together and I askedhim on the show, are you a
psychic? And he said, I'man entertainer. Everybody's psychic, that was
his response. He started as anentertainer. He's been an entertainer the entire

(17:25):
time. He's done motivational workshops also, So if you are an entertainer and
you are capable of bending spoons psychicallyninety percent of the time, what do
you do with the ten percent ofthe time you have an audience? So
that's where the mentalist part comes in, Where the mentalism comes in, that's

(17:45):
where a magic might come in.Things like that. Yeah, you know,
I know mentalists who have had flashesof insight and information about stuff that
they don't even know. They sayit out loud if it pops into their
head because could be real, andif it's not, it's okay because ESP
is not perfect. But you know, ninety nine out of one hundred times

(18:06):
something like that happens and somebody inthe audience says, that's my phone number,
and you know, the metalist islike, I have no idea where
they came from. So you you'veseen enough evidence to believe this. It's
possible. Yeah, for psychokinesis,absolutely, I mean I have a I
wrote a book on it. Thebook is currently out of print, but
there's plenty of copies floating around.It's called no pun Intended. It's called
Mind over Matter. I'll have itback out hopefully by the end of the

(18:29):
year beginning of next year. Again. It also also has Martin Cayden's method
and how to do PK to someextent. But one of the things about
psychokinesis is it's scary to people.I've seen people who were able to move
an object who back away once theysee the object moving, and their eyes
go wide and they back away andthey can't do it again. And it's

(18:52):
it's because our culture has made thatparticular ability more than any esp ability were
strange. We've seen terrible movies aboutpeople, you know, causing terrible things
with psych with telekinesis, and weknow that there's a psychology here more for
PK than there is even for espwhich is similar to performance psychology in sports

(19:18):
and other activities. In fact,it's the same psychology. But if we
all, if someone is exercising thatability, if they present it as I'm
using the force, then there's nothingreally scary about it, right, It's
more that's actually how I tend topresent it to people. Actually, that's
part of the induction we do,is calling down the force. I on

(19:40):
occasionally still give it a go.I give it a go once in a
while, and I see that maybeI can just concentrate, relax a little
bit and see if anything will budge. But um, it's dark side.
Yeah, yeah, Well, youknow what's interesting the old old Star Wars,
right, like Obi wan Kenobi says, let the force flow through you.
In recent Star Wars, I've noticedlike a lot of people are straining

(20:04):
really hard to get the force towork for them. Yeah, you know,
and that's what's really interesting. Oneof my colleagues, Pamela ray Heap,
years ago, did her doctoral dissertationon psychokinesis, and she looked at
the experiences of a number of peoplewho have had consistent or relatively common PEK
experiences, both spontaneous and controlled andfound that there were some some very common

(20:27):
factors, one of which was yougot to trust the process. So and
it's not what In other words,if it's happening, you can trust it.
It's real. You can kind ofgo into it, but you shouldn't
try to force it. You know, we're talking about the force, but
this is a different kind of forcehere. And what's really interesting is watching

(20:47):
people do PK, even at thesePeka parties, is when this, this
the spoon bending is actually happening whereobjects are moving. For these folks,
their faces go blank. They arenot straining, they're not getting that red
faced, throbbing vain in the head. Which is all about pop culture.
It's all about the movies and TVto to to kind of produce um an

(21:08):
emotion in the audience as well.So it's not about concentrations. It is
about focus and it is about lettingit flow. I think that's a really
good way of putting it. Yeah, uh, when um not what we
want? Oh my gosh. AndPhantom Menace Quaganjin, when when he's face
facing Darth Maul right and it's he'she has that moment where he just gets

(21:30):
down on his knees, he closeshis eyes because he has the time to
do it to relax and clear hishead. Uh. And and other psychics
that I've spoken to, that seemsto be what they do. Yeah,
it's it's about kind of clearing andgetting out of your out of your own
way and letting it happen. Yeah. I mean, actually, you know,
one of the most common things wehear about these days is remote viewing.

(21:53):
And one of the books that Iwrote co authored actually called ESP Wars
East and West, is about thegovernment's US government's remote viewing program. Two
of the folks who are co authorswere heavily involved in the program itself,
but also we have contributions from theRussians. It's the only book that actually
covers the Russian side of things aswell. In remote viewing, the main

(22:15):
thing, or any ESP task thatyou're doing, the main thing is to
get out of your own way,to not categorize, to not analyze,
to not second guess. You canalways do that later. You get the
impression and the information first and thenyou decode or go over it later on.
So having Joe mcmonagle, who isone of the best known remote viewers

(22:37):
from that program, who still doesremote viewing, has said that he just
basically had to learn to move hisego aside. The eye goes away.
It's the information that's the only eyethat we're talked about here. How much
control can you have then if you'rekind of setting all that aside and you're
operating almost in a semi unconscious,well, ESP tends to be more unconscious.

(23:03):
In other words, the information comesin and bubbles up from our unconscious,
So it's really more about noticing whatis already there or coming through our
normal perceptions. You know, peoplealways talk about how come I don't get
more psychic information as well, becausethe fact is that most people who have
a quick psychic inflat flash or insight, it's very mundane. It's and its

(23:26):
It's like the shiny object in yourperceptions most of the time. But we
have so many shiny objects that aretaking our attention from our normal senses that
unless that information is different than whatour senses provide, it could actually be
enhancing our one of our normal sensesor inputs, and we wouldn't even know
it because we just noticed something thatwe hadn't noticed by looking in that direction.

(23:51):
And it's our psychic sense pointing usin that direction. ESP is nonsensory.
It really should have called nonsensory perceptionbecause it's not an extra sense.
You know, the whole idea ofcalling this a sixth sense sensory information or
sensory input requires a sense organ ora part of you that actually picks up

(24:12):
the data. We look at ESPas nonsensory that it's a function of consciousness
actually getting the information directly. Didyou see Caroline Cores Superhuman documentary. I
did see it when it first camefirst was produced. Yeah, I remember
in there there was a scene wherethey had this it was like a gum

(24:34):
wrapper. It was kind of placedon the top, like a tip of
something very sharp, and it wascovered so presumably no air would drift through.
And you know, they were concentratingon trying to get this thing to
move, and it did appear tomove. Now, granted it's an edited
documentary, right, And I spokento Caroline and I don't think she's trying

(24:57):
to deceive anyone. Well, that'swhat what you're describing, though, is
pretty much what Martin Kade was ableto do with not just GM round.
I'm just pretty much any kind ofbalanced pyramid, if you want to call
it a paper pyramid or but heactually was using all sorts of stuff,
and he had a very closed systemthat he was sitting outside of in order
to watch this. And in fact, one of the tests that was done

(25:18):
with him was having that target inan atmosphere chamber. Was actually an archery
company that produces arrowheads and things likethat, and they had a vacuum chamber.
They lowered the atmospheric pressure to lessthan a hundredth of an atmosphere.
So even if and they even hada fan, a remote controlled fan in
that chamber blowing directly on the target, and it didn't move because there wasn't

(25:42):
enough air to move that, okay. So and it's Marty was able to
still cause that to move, Okay, So something like that occurs, right,
Yeah. Why are not scientists,the likes of Neil de grass Tyson,
Michael Schermer, Why why didn't theynot look at these things and go,
whoa wait a minute, there's somethinghere because they don't trust or believe,

(26:07):
it's a belief thing that this iseven possible, Not when there's a
possibility of microcurrents of air, whichis the main thing that's suggested that every
once in a while could not couldmove something around. And even in a
closed system, you put a domeover something and you seal that dome and
you've got that target inside. Itwould be really important to observe it with

(26:29):
no attempt to move it for quitesome time to see if it moves from
ostensible microcurrenc of air, you know, changes in temperature, things like that.
Then the question is if someone sitsdown in front of that, does
that cause any sort of temperature differentialor electrostatic differential that causes it to move?
Again, you do some observation,then you ask the person to make
it move or to focus on it, and if it moves at that point

(26:52):
and then you tell them to askit, ask it to stop, and
it stops, and then you observeit some more with that person sitting there
and it's not moving. You haveto really look at that as a good
experiment. The problem is that ifyou're approaching this that PK is impossible,
then you're not even going to considerany any other option. You're not going

(27:12):
to look at that as a mystery. You're going to think it's a fraud.
You're going to think it's a trickof you know, it's vibration,
it's temperature, temper it's all sortsof other possibilities. But if you're gonna
it's not that hard to eliminate most, if not all, of those other
possibilities from that scenario. They're justnot interested. But these are people that
profess objectivity. Well, there's clearlyno objectivity in science. I mean,

(27:37):
one of the best examples happened whenDaryl Bem who is a social psychologist at
Cornell University, when he had donea couple of year study on precognition using
something called presentiment, looking at thebiometrics of a person's body, the subject's
bodies as they were presented with images, many neutral, and then they were

(28:00):
actually porn images, sexual images thatwere shown. In fact, he was
on the Colbert Report talking about thepsychic porn thing. Stephen Colbert called it
that the psychic porn study. Buthis study was announced to be presented in
a journal, a psychologic, mainstreampsychology journal, and when the table of
contents came out, there was anenormous backlash at the journal. How dared

(28:26):
they consider publishing something on precognition?Precognition is not real. So a number
of reporters actually asked these well knownscientists why you know they're they're making these
comments, and the answer was it'snot possible or the results can't be there.
And consistently the reporters were often askinghave you read the study and the

(28:51):
answer was no, why would I. That's that's what we're dealing with here.
Okay, so then what's the nextstep. How do you eventually tip
the scale where they can no longerbe in the state of the nile.
Well, you know, it's notthe case with all scientists. The problem
is coming to the attention of scientistswho might be willing to consider these questions

(29:15):
to look at what's really going on, because you know, we all want
to find an explanation. And it'snot that you know, we certainly were
hoping that we're right about the ESPNPK thing. We still want to know
how they work. But it maybe that we're wrong, that there's something
that we don't know in the waywe interact with the universe on a physical
basis that has not been discovered byscience yet. Sadly, paras psycholoists the

(29:40):
only ones who are going to findthat out because these other folks are unwilling
to look at this question. Sowe have to find people who are willing
to express publicly or at least dueresearch on the sly, which happens quite
a bit, by the way,in academics after hours of the lab,
after hours in the lab, doingit at their houses something else. You

(30:03):
know, there are dozens of situationsover the years where I've met people from
different universities or in an academia insome way, and they will in a
group they'll clear or with somebody elsefrom their their department or their company will
say this stuff is all garbage,and then the apuleia aside and they say,
I got to tell you my ghoststory. Dean Brayden has talked about

(30:25):
that. I think everybody in myfield has met people in other groups of
academic demia that have said that theproblem is there's such a bias publicly against
this subject, and so much ofit was promoted by the pseudo skeptics.
They call themselves skeptics. They're notskeptics. Neil de grasse Tyson around this
subject is a pseudoskeptic. He's not, you know, they're not skeptics.

(30:48):
Because they're not looking into the question, they may not care, which is
fine. If they just simply saidI don't care about this, I'd be
okay with that. I'm uninterested,but I'm uninterested. That is a reasonable
thing to say. But to saythat there's nothing to it, or coming
up with explanations that without knowing whatthe studies actually are. I mean Bem's

(31:11):
study. Those scientists who made commentslike that didn't even know if them had
a significantly positive result because they hadn'tread the study. It turned out he
did, so then what happened Theylooked at his You know, there was
a whole bunch of people who weregoing after him for doing his statistics wrong,
for gathering the data wrong. Well, some of the top statisticians and

(31:33):
people in statistical work in psychology lookedat what he had done and concluded that
everything he did was correct. Butif ESP doesn't exist, that means there's
something wrong with the method of statistics. This has actually caused a kind of
a crisis in psychology and social sciencein general because the method he used,
Daryl Bem's an amazingly well known socialpsychologist, Bayesian statistics, which is the

(31:57):
basics for social echology or psychology ingeneral, for many other social sciences.
If there's something wrong with Bayesian statisticsbecause ESP can't exist, they got to
throw out hundreds of studies, whichthey're unwilling to do. Therefore, what
do you say, I mean,you say ESP must be possible. They're
not saying no. They go we'lldeal with that later, kind of like

(32:21):
they do with an archaeology. Right, yeah, I don't know why that
this is in this strata, Solet's just put that in a box pack
here and we'll worry about that anotherday, right right, yeah, yeah,
it comes along all right, Sowe're talking about that, you know,
psychokinesis and telekinesis, right, soit seems to me that what ever

(32:42):
has been measured is very subtle,very very small movements of force. And
why do you think that is?Why is it so subtle? Well,
you know, it's really interesting.Um, there's a problem with psychokinesis,
and it is like an issue thatconnects to our psychology in some way,
shape or form. And the problemPK has often been called the trickster phenomenon

(33:08):
because when you try to measure sofor example, in the moving targets that
we described when we're working with MartinKayden, and I know this was a
baffling thing for some of the otherresearchers who were not Paris psychologists, who
had worked with Marty on the slyonly because he knew a lot of guys
at NASA. They would measure fortemperature change in the jar or in the

(33:30):
controlled environment, and it would goup one degree, like once, it
would go up one degree. Adegree is actually pretty significant, it is,
and that was because he had hishands on the outside of the jar.
But the interesting thing is that atone point is he made his hands
really hot, put him on theoutside the jar, it went up two
degrees. The target didn't move,so it didn't cause a change in the
airflow. Okay, right, Butwe were trying to measure was there or

(33:52):
that. Another time we would bemeasuring and we have a device to detect
electrostatic fields, because the human bodycan generate electrostatic fields and actually pretty powerful
ones. Not consciously, but wecan do that. We do generate electrostatic
fields. An electrostatic field can movean object. We got it once,

(34:14):
we didn't get the next time wegot it. The third time we didn't
get it. The force time.It's almost as if, and this I've
heard from other researchers that it's almostas if whatever is if there's an easy
way. What in that moment?Is it easier to send a force out
of your head to make it move, To cause the error to move,
to cause a temperature change, togenerate electrostatic fields, to move a few

(34:38):
molecules that kind of line up likedominoes that eventually cause the object to actually
move, something called browniean motion inthe atmosphere. There's any number of reasons,
and it's not consistent, and thatmakes it harder to study. It
doesn't make it harder to control forbecause we are trying to figure out what's
going on here, and as longas a person can't manipulate, we just

(35:00):
need to know what the body isproducing. No go ahead. I was
going to say that I had aconversation with a good friend of mine,
Ed May, who was actually trainedas a nuclear physicist and when ended up
being the direct program director of theStargate program. The government program still doesn't
remote viewing another research he's done PKresearch doesn't really buy into it too much.

(35:22):
But he was talking to me aboutthis electrostatic field. You know,
the body can generate this field.And partly that was because the Russians had
found that with one of their wellknown psychics, she was generating electrostatic field
to move objects. They measured thatfairly consistently in fact with her, and
Ed said, well that's not pKaAnd I said, well can you do

(35:44):
that consciously? I mean, psychokinesisis mind over matter. It doesn't matter
how we do that, as longas we're not picking it up and moving
it that way. And you saidearlier brownie in brownie in Brownie like brown
I A n I am okay.Yeah. Um, that was a very
simplistic version of that Brownian motion.Yeah, and that's something to add awesome.

(36:07):
And you know, as a physicasthe talked about that being a possibility
to there's apparently a couple of papersout about that. Well, that's what
it sounds like to me. Soyou're saying that static electricity could be the
the function, right, but howdoes the body, how does the brain?
How does the mind generate that onan unconscious level to actually target a

(36:27):
specific object. But we do sendelectrical signals from our brain. It's really
are literally chemical that's not the sameas electrostatic fields. So okay, so
electrical electric chemical. Um, thebrain can do that. But the question
is can the brain do electric staticelectrostatics? Well, I mean we do
again, we naturally we have consciouslyintentionally consciously is the big question. Right.

(36:52):
Um, you know, there's there'sa generally accepted, like well accepted
effect. Um, it's affect.It's an accepted medicine and it's accepted in
fact that the benchmark and pharmaceutical researchcalled the placebo effect. There is extremely
little research on how the placebo effectactually works. That's a mind over matter

(37:13):
thing. And I don't understand thatbecause there's enough data that even your everyday
doctor, well we'll agree that theplacebo effect is a real thing. Right,
Why aren't we spending millions more?Why don't we have you know,
commissions and studies to figure out what'sgoing on here because we might be able
to unlock something through this affect?Correct, Yeah, that's not something that

(37:34):
pharmaceutical companies want you to do.Though. There's also and it's noted actually
more anthropology and than on any otherareas, there is a reverse of the
placebo effect, called the nocebo effect, which we often call a psychosomatic effect.
A good example of that, whichis rare, but it does happen
with highly suggestible, hypnotizeable people whereyou tell them that a pen is a

(37:55):
red hot iron poker. Once they'reunder you touch their skin and they get
up list. There is literally noreason why that should happen. Sure,
and yet and yet we know itdoes, and we know it does.
That's a no effect. Yeah,yeah, no, Cibo would psychosomatic no
sneebo like the placebo effect. Thatplacebo means positive. No Cibo is negative.

(38:20):
Yeah, okay, so all right, So now that's kind of like
when you stub your foot in themorning and you start off your day cranky
and upset and you say it's abad day, and then the rest of
the day just it's just one thingafter another after another. That's a that's
a real psychological um conundrum in manyrespect, it's why people sometimes think they're
unlocking your cursed right, but youcan you can physically feel drained at the

(38:46):
end of the day. Absolutely.Yeah. So are those two things completely
separate or there is there a connection? There is it one psychological, one
psychological and the question is whether you'rewhat kind of effect you're having on your
body. Our minds absolutely have aneffect on our bodies. That mind body
connection is studied in different ways allover the place. You know, not

(39:07):
everybody might Field would approach. Manyof us actually look at self healing as
a form of psychokinesis as well.It still is by definition of mind over
matter or mind matter interaction. Butthey're you know, our psychology affects our
health, our attitudes affect our health, our moods, all that, that's

(39:28):
all connected. It's it's all totallyconnected. The question is can we And
I think a lot of that's accepted, although under a different concept by people
who are absolutely against the idea ofpsychokinesis or ESP or anything else. So
that for them, the hard partis going beyond the body. You know,
if the extension of our thought goesbeyond the body without the body being

(39:49):
involved in doing something physically, that'swhere the problem is. And we've measured
electrostatic frequency during yeah, the events. Yeah, I mean people people have
been able to generate, I mean, we generate electrostatic fields in some respects.
Simple examples, how much static isgenerated during dry winter days and you

(40:12):
touch something metal and you get thatspark. All right, But you know
how we measure a brain activity,right, and we can see the changes.
Yeah, they can. They canmeasure electrostatic fields coming off the body.
Yeah, okay, so we'll beable to see divergent behavior or activity.
Yeah, you have to have constantmonitoring because you know, we have

(40:35):
various fields coming off the body.I mean, for one thing, we
have infrared energy coming off of us. I love talking to skeptic, the
pseudoskeptic of the skeptics who say,when psychics talk about energy, you're seeing
an aura. I've heard some ofthem say, well, you know you
can't see energy, there's no energycoming off you, And of course they
don't understand. So there are acouple I love saying to them, well,

(40:57):
then you must be dead, becauseif you're, if you're at all
above you know, room temp oreven below, if you're you're giving off
an infrared energy because you have temperaturetemperature heat right through right energy. I
haven't there been studies where, orat least preliminary studies where people can kind
of see things without using their eyes. Yes, well, I mean there's

(41:22):
that. I mean you can there'sthat's kind of almost a form of sonar
like what bats use. There havebeen people who have been able to learn
to navigate through echolocation, and echolocationis what bats use in other words,
click and I think what they dois they have this deep click that they
learn how to do. And therehave been a few blind people have been

(41:44):
able to do that too. It'ssomething that can be learned by human beings,
which really boggles the mind when youthink about it, that we could
actually navigate that way, navigate theworld that way. I have a question
from Mariah Canal and like the kindof shift scares too. I'm curious about
the spirit world. How does hefeel spirits may affect EMF detectors a potential

(42:07):
similar way the living does. Well. You know, there are the general
EMF sensor that you see on ghostsetting shows that we call a Gauss meter,
the type that you typically buy isnot going to be affected by humans
at all because they're they're basically designedto detect the kind of electromagnetic fields that

(42:28):
are given off by technology. Sothey were actually originally designed at a consumer
level. They were designed first forelectromagnetic pollution. Because a lot of people
have been you know, it's stillthere's concern about living under power lines or
potentially causing cancer. Yeah, sothey don't pick up from humans. There
is a there are different forms ofelectromagnetic field detectors that will pick up more

(42:50):
natural fields, and we do interactwith the natural fields around us. I
mean, there are electromagnetic fields hereall around me. There are signals going
through me from Wi Fi and everythingelse. There is a geomagnetic field from
the Earth that is here, andwe because we have the ability, it's
not even an ability because of ourpresence, we're interacting with that electromagnetic environment

(43:15):
that's here, so we can causeIn these field detectors that detect natural fields,
we can cause changes. If weeven wave our hand above the object
things, it's kind of like wavingyour hand through water. It's detecting the
movement of the water in that sense. So it is thought that spirits might

(43:37):
affect the electromagnetic environment, including thosedevices that might pick up from technology as
well, because one of the thingswe also know is that human beings seem
to be able to affect technology againthrough PK. The big question for a
lot of these meters, and it'sa question I've had since I started using
one years ago. Because what we'redoing is not trying to detect spirits.

(43:59):
I mean this is this was takenby the TV shows and by ghost hunting
groups. That the sensors that wehave been using, and there's basic sensors
who use in parapsychology doing investigations thatare environmental sensors, temperature, electromagnetic fields,
things like that. Because when somebodysees the ghost, when Mariah,
for example, sees somebody, Iwant to know if there's been a change

(44:21):
in the environment, right yeah,because that'll tell me something. I don't
know exactly what yet, but atleast tells me that if there is a
spirit there, they are interacting withthe environment in some way. It may
not be picking them up. Imay be picking up the changes that they're
making. That's what we think isgoing on. But the other side of

(44:42):
that is if living humans can affectdevices and so potentially good spirits. Right,
so some of them have little needlesto go back and forth. And
I always used a kid about becausethat's the original ones you had used to
kid that the ghost is just walkingover, to moving over to the object
and to flicking their fingers fingers onthe needle to make it move. They're
not causing a change in it likea magnetic field, and we don't know

(45:04):
what's actually going on. We wereseemingly measuring a change in the field,
but we don't know if that's actuallygoing on. And it's also possible that
I'm doing it. Well, that'smaking true and that's making the assumption that
the spirit is real. What evidencehave you seen that makes you believe that
there is a consciousness separate from thecorporeal you know state, Well, first,

(45:28):
we have I don't know how manythousands of study of cases on record
going back to the late eighteen hundreds, ateen before that field got started in
eighteen eighty two officially, and there'sa common there's a common thread. There
are patterns that we look at.People experience operations in certain ways, and

(45:50):
it's very very common. I mean, it really kind of fits a pattern
straight across as far as communication,you know, we have you might see
a figure or perceived because not everybodysees ghosts. Some people hear the voice,
some people sense of presents, somepeople smell the perfumer cologne, and
that can happen with a group ofpeople in the same room at the same

(46:12):
time. That not everybody's experiencing thatapparent ghost the same way, because we
are getting information and we process it. I might do it visually, someone
else might do it auditorially, somebodyelse might do it some other way,
and some people don't experience at all. But the community, it's the actual
common factors of description matching someone theperson could not have known that we look

(46:37):
at quite often it is the experiencespeople have where at the moment of death
or shortly there, like within afew minutes after they experienced something from their
uncle Harry, and then the nextmorning they find out that he died at
that time and they had no ideahe was sick, and or he had

(46:57):
no idea he died in an accidentfor that matter. So we have a
variety of cases of witnessed experienced multiplewitness sometimes really good information that's provided by
the communication, coupled with, ofcourse, the the evidential mediumship work that
many of the mediums have been certifiedand tested over the years and back actually

(47:19):
going back in time. That allkind of gives us a really good set
of evidence. Well, you're amentalist, right right, so you are
very good at observation. You lookat human behavior. So are you able
to look at someone who says I'ma psychic and get a sense of whether

(47:39):
they are misguided, sincere and trueor charlatan. I need them to demonstrate,
you know. I can't look atsomebody and tell you tell you if
they're well, let's put it thisway. If they show it up in
you know, gypsy in what waspop culture gypsy garb, you know,

(48:00):
not what's actually wore or with aswami type thing, I might immediately make
a judgment in a snap judgment onthat person, but I need them to
demonstrate. You know. There aremany ways that people can glean information from
someone or whether it's you know,fishing for information or using stock statements,
but there are actually some good nonverbalsthat people are good at nonverbal communication if

(48:23):
they learn that very well. Oneof my mentalist buddies is also a professor
at a university teaches nonverbal communication,so and he's exceptionally good at reading people
that way. There are other waysyou can read people as well, So
we need to see specific types ofbehavior to determine if the person is psychic,

(48:44):
and you know, many I haveto say it. Some of the
best readers I've met are not psychic, but they are such good observers and
you know, of nonverbals and everythingelse, that they do better than psychics
when it comes to personality and thingslike that. They can't tell you the
specifics about your life outside of you, but they can tell you a lot

(49:05):
of good stuff. Um. Andthen there you know, and there are
people who are very sincere. They'vebeen told all their lives that they're psychic,
but in fact they're not. Youknow, everybody told them there must
be psychic. But there's also peoplewho genuinely get information they could not possibly
have known. Right. That's theclincher, right that that that's where there's
no denying, there's and that's inthe type. We'll go back to Tyl

(49:28):
Henry briefly. Um, when hedid that study with doctor Drew Pinsky on
his on his television show. Ithink it was doctor Drew Andrew Pinsky.
Um, they did an EEG ofhis brain, right right, Um,
And they brought in someone who wasa skeptic, and you know, as
often happens, they're dumbfounded by theend of the reading, and they're they're

(49:51):
left with no other choice to eithersay I can't say he's not real or
I believe and that that's that's astounding. And then I remember to that the
study there are studying the wavelengths,so the delta brain waves, and there
is there something we should be lookingfor a consistency between different individuals who have

(50:12):
this ability as far as their brainwaves go. There's nothing that's really come
together yet. I know that thereare folks like Jeffrey Tarrant and a few
others who are doing studies brainwave andother types of brain studies, mainly with
mediums because they're able to turn iton and off much better than psychics seem
to be. Other other psychic canAnd one of the things we do know
right off the bat is that thereis a difference in the brain state of

(50:37):
that individual when they're ostensibly communicating withspirit as opposed to even some mediums do
psychic readings of living people. Notall mediums do that, but there's a
difference for those who can also dopsychic readings of living people or say they
can, and a difference again ifthey were just simply having a conversation with
somebody the researcher or even if theyare pretending to do a reading, pretending

(51:00):
to do to acting, to acting, it out that there's a different brain
states. So when a skeptic saysor pseudo, I have to say pseudo
skeptic again, because they're not evenreally curious, they're just simply denying.
I like pseudoskeptic. I've also usedthe word um. You know, mal
intended to bunker. Cynic is anothergood word. That's y yeah, so

(51:22):
um. You know when they saythere's nothing to it or the usually they
say all mediums or phonies or frauds. It's like, yeah, you can't
fake that. I'm sorry, youcan't write what's going on in the brain.
You know the movie Phenomenon Is Ilove that movie. I don't.
I don't know if you remember thatwith John Travolta. Oh yeah, yeah,
from the nineties, you know,the nineties, the golden era of
cinema. As my wife and Ioften a joke. Um, I mean,

(51:45):
there's are just some great jams thatcame out of that period. But
in the in that movie, youknow, he has a tumor, right,
and they attribute that to his psychicability. Obviously, that's not what
is required for someone to have psychicabilities. Um, but I know that
Tyler Henry did have assists in hisin his brain that he had lived with

(52:06):
for a while. And have youseen any evidence at all that any kind
of same malformation. You know,obviously I don't know the right term,
but anything anything abnormal in the brainthat could contribute to increase the activity leading

(52:27):
to psychic abilities. There's nothing thathas been noted across the board. I
mean, there are people who havehad issues of their brain, but there
are also people who have had otherkinds of trauma there. You know,
I've met mediums and psychics who hadtraumatic upbringing, not psychically but otherwise,
and it was that trauma they causedhim to kind of go inward. And
then others who others who were psychicas kids, which kids are off from

(52:52):
psychic before they learned not to bewhere the parents encouraged it, and they
didn't have that kind of trauma whatsoever. Maybe they were traumatized when they tried
to talk to their friends in schoolabout it, but they didn't have the
kind of trauma that these other onesdid. There's not We're all individuals,
and there's like not one way tobecome psychic out there. You know,

(53:13):
tons of books and psyche development,but when it comes right down to it,
there's some key elements right in thecenter that a lot of them cover,
but they approach it differently because oftheir own personal experience. That's what
the ways talk about. So itreally depends on the individual. And you
know, we really point to thisas being a function of consciousness whatever that

(53:36):
is. When we talk about survivalof bodily death apparitions, ghost things like
that, or reincarnation cases, we'retalking about consciousness surviving being able to be
existing on its own without the supportingbrain in some way, shape or form.
So you know, one of thethings I always tell my students is

(53:57):
have you ever thought about how aghost can see you? They don't have
eyes. I mean, they looklike they have eyes, but you know,
they don't have a retina, theydon't have ear drums that are responding
to sound, so they would haveto use essentially psychic perception ESP to perceive
the world around them and to communicate. So that is one other indication if

(54:20):
you go in the direction of dualismand consciousness existing without the body, that
really says that ESP has got tobe a function of consciousness and if they
can move something, they don't havehands, physical hands to move that object.
Again, that's a mind over matterthing. Are you familiar with the
bicameral mind theory, yeah, JulianJaynes Julians Who's yeah, Yeah, so

(54:42):
it's been a while. It's theidea that back in the day, human
brains are a little bit different,and that really truly believe that, like
mythological gods were real because the wayour right side of our brain would kind
of communicate to us in a voice, and I would literally kind of hear
the voice from the right brain tothe left brain, and we would think

(55:05):
this is a god talking to us. It really was just our own mind,
is there. Do you think that'sjust a way out there hypothesis or
do you think there's something to it? I think some form of it is
something to it. I know thatoverlasts probably ten or fifteen or even twenty
years, there's been a whole lotof backing away from the right brain left
brain model and more of a kindof cohesive brain model where we might have

(55:29):
tendencies we used to attribute to rightbrain, and we can still use it
as a way of talking about thecreative side versus the logical side that we
all have. But you know,and there's some evidence, some discussion and
anthropology I've seen over the years thatpoints to things like development of art and

(55:50):
the way it's developed in different cultures, even the development of language and written
language and other things that may haveshaped the brain. Also because neuropathways form
based on as we're growing up,based on certain activities as well, So
it may be that the brain didchange and evolve for people in general as
we got more and more into toolmaking, into into art and music and other

(56:15):
things that kind of shape into theculture itself, shaping our brains to some
extent. But that's still really youknow, we don't have actual brain matter
from the ancient Egyptians, just reallydried stuff if you can find it in
the canopic jar Yah in a tombor something like that. Yeah, and
we would really need to see thefull structure to be able to understand today.

(56:37):
Right, that's right, that's right. You know, I'm just noticing
somebody mentioned the pineal gland, whichis often called in various mystical beliefs and
cultures the third eye. And ifyou go back, I remember reading about
the peneal grand in the nineteenth Planin nineteen sixties in a comic book and
looking it up and finding that theydidn't think much of it. In science.

(56:57):
It was pretty much like the appendixthat we didn't need it, but
we really need it. There's thereare a lot of assumptions of things we
thought we didn't need we do needthem. Um, it's like junk DNA.
Right, there's probably a lot moregoing on there than we suspect.
I have to ask you this.We're running out of time. So,

(57:19):
since this is the Mystic Lounge Channeland we talk about UFOs and extraterrestrials,
do you have any experience with anyonewho has a second ability who feels that
they can sense any other kind ofnon human in intelligence, not a ghost
like someone who died or passed away, but something else that's that's out there.
Well, I mean, other thana few people I've met over the

(57:43):
years who sense what they call angels. And of Annette Martin, who are
worked with for quite a long time, we'd use that language, even though
what she was really referring to washelper spirits from the other side, the
people who used to be alive andevolved, but there's you know, there's
often talk about various non humanities,especially when people started talking about demons and

(58:04):
things like that, which we reallydon't buy into in Paris psychology. It
is possible that there are conscious somethingsout there that I'm not even talking about
ets at this point, that caninteract with us in some way. We
have no way of even indicating thatthey're real, because we know that when
people experience actual what we say areactual ghosts that can be identified later on.

(58:25):
People call them demons if they didn'tlike you know, the behavior,
if they got scared and they werenot clearly not demonic or anything like that.
So it's really hard to judge giventhe labels put people put on this.
I know when I was in college, Jalen Heinich was the head of
the astronomy department in Northwestern I actuallystarted as astronomy major and volunteered at the

(58:47):
Center for UFO Studies, and heoften talked about not all UFOs being nuts
and bolts hardware, that many ofthem may be psychic projections, kind of
like what Carl Jung talked about.So whether that also means we're projecting somehow
that there's other intelligence and it's reallyus. That's a question we have to
ask ourselves. That's a philosophical inquirythat Whitley Striever has been trying to crack,

(59:14):
you know, for for decades now, and you know he's still working
away at that trying to understand M. Is there a way to parse this
out? Is there a way toseparate a psychic phenomena from what seems to
be a physical phenomena? Not atleast for him and others. I mean,
that's a that's a really fascinating placebecause what if it is something in
between that we just really can't quiteconceive of of yet? Um, Lloyd,

(59:38):
thank you so much. I reallyenjoyed this conversation. And uh,
where can people find out more aboutyou? And do you have any events
or anything coming up you'd like toshare? Sure? Sure people can find
out about me. Probably the easiestthing right now is my Facebook author page.
It's facebook dot dot com slash Lloyddot urback dot author Do you note

(59:59):
the spelling him by name though?On that. You can also follow me
on Twitter at as at at profparanormal. I have a YouTube channel,
new YouTube channel which is at askProfessor Paranormal every other week starting. I've
done two already. I'm doing oneon the twenty third of July. It's

(01:00:21):
in Sunday evenings, and we postthe date and time for the next one.
There it's again YouTube dot com slashask at ask Professor Paranormal, or
just go to until YouTube dot comslash Lloyd auerback and you'll see a lot
of my TV appearances. Lloyd,thank you so much. One last question
for you, and I think it'san important one. Um our dragons real

(01:00:49):
It depends on how you define dragons. Don't it doesn't it? I suppose
it does, all right? Doyou want to leave it at that?
Hey, I'm gonna leave it likethat. Okay, thank you so much.
I appreciate it. You're welcome,Allen. Okay, thank you everyone
for joining us tonight. I appreciateall of you as well. And of
course, if you like this program, please subscribe coming down below, share

(01:01:12):
your thoughts and questions and click thenotification Belle so you don't miss future shows
until next time. Peace and loveto you all, and I will see
you on the flip side.