43, Anna Carter on innovation in land and urban development projects.

Anna Carter, Senior Planning Consultant, LandMatters Ltd, Otaki, describes in depth the work of LandMatters and their successful collaboration and innovation across stakeholders in land and urban development projects.
A range of topical National Policy Statements are discussed including Freshwater; Highly Productive Land; Biodiversity.
Social housing is highlighted and also medium and high density housing standards and what these proposed rules mean for our townships today.
Also covered: the concept of Te Mana o te Wai which is Te Atiawa’s commissioned Statement of Cultural Values; Ki Uta ki Tai which is the successful Kapiti template of the Mountains to the Sea awa concept; and Three Waters.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, This is Roslyn Derby hereagain for April were for Local Architecture now

(00:22):
and we have Amacata. Hello,Hi, Nad from wonderful Land Matters.
And what you're talking about is isso sort of complex that I'm not sure
if I can we keep up.But can you first describe perhaps to describe
Land Matters well. Land Matters isa small family business. It started with
Dave and Jackie Prett Chad originally,and you know that they are an incredible

(00:47):
family, the prett Chads and havedone so much on the coast and they
were initially a civil construction company andmoved into land development. And fortunately,
when Dave got sack, that businessgot year had to really step back from
the business, and so his sonscame in, well, his son,
his oldest son, Sam came inand they set up Land Matter Matters along

(01:12):
with Bryce Holmes and Alice Holman who'sSam's wife, and Pritchard's Civil split off
as a separate civil construction company andJohn Pritchard, Sam's brother, and Sam
are the directors of that. SoLand Matters is actually a surveying, engineering,
planning and project management consultancy and ourwork rangers from doing land, preparing,

(01:38):
resource consent applications, surveying, engineering, preparing civil engineering design. Certification
for engineering for listeners is actually likeroading three waters design. Yeah, that
connection connecting services to sites. That'syeah. Yeah, all the things that

(02:00):
you need to get a house ona lot, you know, the roading,
the water, the wastewater, thestormwater, how you design all that,
that's that's the engineering copentrant. Wedon't do the power design. We
leave that up to the power companies, same with gas and telecommunications. But
we project manage that. So we'llhave project managers who'll take the construction process

(02:25):
through to titles for a client.So yeah, and that's a really complex
area as well. And we alsowork with on top of that the sort
of resource consent element and the andthe survey and the engineering. We also
do property feasibility and due diligence workand we I guess that's kind of ties

(02:47):
into the project management element, andwe're working with a couple of EE organizations
around the country in that space.Property project feasibility, Yeah, and that's
looking at how best to maybe developa site or or you know, given
use the highest and best use ofa site, or it might be that

(03:12):
that that particular landowners thinking about hasan opportunity to do some land development and
doesn't really know where to start,or they might have funding to do land
development through you know, some sortof government agency for you as a consultant
to be able to provide advice onthat. I mean, it's a land
resource and looking at where we couldbe best going in the future with Yeah,

(03:34):
obviously can see why we come intothat as well, that's right.
And there's also we get involved inpublic works acts purchases as well. For
example, when Wakakotahi are looking at, you know, doing a major roading
project and they might need land forthat, then we'll often act for landowners
and their negotiations with wakakotahi. Soyeah, we worked for Wakna Christian Holiday

(03:58):
Park and there and when that expresswayit was being constructed, and we've done
work all right throughout Kapity and horrorFinua on the roading near work for landowners.
Yeah, and that's in the waywhether they sell or that's right.
It's about it's about so for thosepeople, it's when they're dealing with Wakako

(04:19):
tah he, it's about sort oftrying to help them value that land for
that eventual purchase by whaka kotah He, so that they are looking to understand
what what could they have done onthat land had whakakota He not come along
and sought taken under their Public WorksAct or purchase it under the Public Works
Act. Yeah. Yeah, youknow, we had David Mills from Laws

(04:43):
Albert and what I got out ofthat just recently a few months ago was
that sort of love and understanding ofland which is there, which is what
they're so involved with the infrastructure andfor me like doing the buildings and then
to hear from you guys, you'resort of like intimately understand of the land
resource and how to and how tosort of use that for all the parties

(05:04):
that are going to be wanting todevelop it or yeah, and there's um
you know, what's really really awesomeand wonderful I guess is that when you're
dealing with clients and um, thatthey are just as passionate about the land,
you know, as anybody else,and they really you know, they
want to achieve good outcomes as well, and that complex outcomes when you're dealing

(05:28):
with land and you know, there'sso many layers to manage. There's potentially
natural hazards, there's soil issues,there's biodiversity issues, there's um fresh water
issues, and you know, you'restill wanting to create a yield a number
of lots that you can get offa site or a number of houses that
you can get off a site.So you're trying to you're trying to accommodate

(05:50):
all of these overlaying interests while alsotrying to achieve a yield that makes it
economic and feasible to develop. Andwe've just done where it's you know that
that sort of work also feeds intothe work that the government has recently put
the new legislation that the government hasrecently put through, the National Policy Statement

(06:13):
on Urban Development, which came outin twenty twenty. I think where the
government is looking at intensifying land useeto enable more housing to be provided to
meet the long term housing National Policyon Urban Development is basically looking at how
to intensify housing development. Yeah,and we've just had Kuppitty Coast District Council

(06:38):
have just had released their Plan Changedto show how they proposed to deal with
that piece of legislation that's called PlanChanged. Two and they've had reas,
they've had submissions, They called forsubmissions on it, and many people put
in submissions on that, and thatthey've just been to hearings and I don't
know how many of the listeners willhave known about this, but for example,

(06:59):
it's providing for six stories within eighthundred meters of any railway station and
the central business district as i'd callit, down the coastlands, and up
to four stories down in these neighborhoodcenters, so like Papa Beach, why
can I Beach or take town maintown center. And then in other areas

(07:21):
within the general residential zone, thegovernment is requiring that the council's district district
plan changes to allow for what theycall medium density, which is up to
three dwellings on a lot as apermitted activity high density of six to four
stories. Yeah. Typically medium densityis three stories three times three on a

(07:44):
lot. That's right, Yeah,okay, And so that's so those are
the sort of so thinking about thatnow when the government has the Government has
said under this new National Policy Statement, all councils need to start measuring what
their demand is going to look likeand the short term, the medium term
and the long term for how well. It's based on sensor status and statistics.

(08:07):
That's why our sensus is so important. So they forward plant and the
short term is three years, themedium term is ten years, and the
long term is anything from ten yearsto thirty years. They then have to
work out, so, how manyhouseholds roughly do we need in this region,
how many lots, how many housesdo we need? And then they

(08:28):
say, well, we need tomake allowance for that in our district plan.
We need to zone land appropriately.We need to then take into account
that the majority of that land that'ssigned probably won't be feasible to develop,
So then you need to overestimate thearea that you provide for. And that
concept of feasibility is something that Iguess us at land Matters understand really well,

(08:50):
which is, you know, theactual cost of development. You know,
we would say roughly it costs somewherebetween one hundred and one hundred fifty
thousand dollars to create a lot thesedays, maybe maybe less in a rural
area and maybe slightly more, butit's not cheap to create a lot,
to be the cost to the owner, yes, for everything, to create

(09:13):
a new a new title. Yeah, okay, yeah, so you're familiar
with the repeated experience, that's right, So you can and you also get
an idea of well where development canoccur. And so we provide this kind
of jumping back to the original questionabout what Land Matters does, is some
of the advice that we provide asthat sort of feasibility that early due diligence

(09:35):
feasibilities advice. And we do thatalso for counsels who are looking at rezoning
land. So we look at areasthat they might be looking to rezone and
identify it for its site constraints,its opportunities, the site yield, are
you how many households can come offit? And what it's likely to develop
that land based on the cost ofgetting the three waters to it or the

(09:58):
base, the cost of roading,um. And we come up with an
idea of what's feasible realistic to develop, which I mean to me is just
wonderful because you're looking at the land, but you also know that developers are
the only people around them who havegot the potential to take that risk,
to invest their money to develop somethingthat they're actually it's going to be feasible

(10:22):
for them. As a business,that's right, and it's it's a big
it's a big kind of occupation thatonly certain people can actually are capable of
achieving. And you have to workfor there. And I think they get
they get a hard rap actually,but you know that is that's the thing
is that they could be sitting onthose on that risk, you know,
and that that investment for quite sometime before they see the fruit of their

(10:46):
labors. You know, that titlecould be five years before they get titles.
And there's something yeah. So andalso housing styles change, like what
people want and what they expect outof a kind of a subdivision, that's
right. An example of the actuallyRosaland is why can I North where there

(11:07):
was councils were the council actually thatwas actually land. Why can I North
is where Rymans is just north ofWhy can I it's that block of land
that's sort of slowly being developed wayPunaho Road, Rymans. Why can I
North? Minu Park? That area, that whole area of land is subject
to what they call a structure planand the district plan. It's not zoned

(11:28):
general residential, it's it's got thesespecial zonings. And those special zonings would
designed as part of an overall planchange to enable that what was originally rural
land to be rezoned and residential effectively. But they were subject to very specific
controls about how what housing would looklike, where it could be placed,

(11:52):
where the open space areas are,where the roading network would be. And
if you have a look in thedistrict plan and you look for why can
I North development area, you'll finda plan that sets out the roading network
and all the open space areas andso on. Now, that was originally
designed with an amazing concept. Itwas sort of these lagoons that would take
in the low lying areas and theyhad like little peninsulas where houses would sort

(12:16):
of sit out into the into thosestormwatar areas and they would be like pavilions
overlooking the wetlands. But there wasnever any market for it, and it
was although it was beautiful, therewas no market for it. And that
they ended up selling that block Ithink sold couple of times over. And
who was the original the original theoriginal landowners who did the structure plan that

(12:41):
eventually got it. Yeah, Soand now you know that whole structure plan
has been consented out of and sothere's now been a resource consent obtained,
and what we have there now isthe development that the market wanted, which
is not what that structure plan lookedlike. And I think that's that's the

(13:01):
difficulty. If you try to embedthings into a district plan, a particular
idea into a district plan, whichyou know, can take many years to
get something into a district plan,then down the track the market might not
be responsive to that, and thenthat's not providing housing, you know,
so, or is it not providingan economic visibility for the developer. Well,

(13:22):
it's that is partly why the market'snot responding, So we have to
be really careful about it. Oh, I see, the market is the
developer. The market is the developer. The market has been why don't they
get the right together? So Ithink it comes down to the market being
a combination of what people are willingto buy at a particular price, and

(13:46):
and you know the cost of housingis high enough as it is, so
they want it simple. Yeah,people want it simple, yeah, because
that's what they can afford. Butthen we've got this beautiful thing called our
land resource. So everybody and carebut he understands about what capity is they
came out when it was like abeach batch plant. Yeah, and you
guys are the sort of advocates facilitatorsfor what to do with that land,

(14:09):
considering what the market is required todo as well. Yeah, and then
and so you get housing, andso many people are grumpy about what occurs
in terms of the built response.Yeah. Um, yeah, it is
really complex. It's really layered,and you know, I think possibly there
was always a lot of talk aboutnot having this sort of flat earth society,

(14:31):
you know, the flat the flattenedjunes, and we saw a lot
of that in the ninetist and waysort of you know, a lot of
our sand dunes were flattened. Andthe thing is is that sand is a
very very valuable resource. So wehave a lot of peat and unsuitable material
and capity, particularly you know,west of the railway line, and so
sand is one of those that youknow, those are the materials that we

(14:54):
might use to we pull out thepeat and we replace it with the sand.
Okay. So that's one of thereasons why sand is you know,
to resources, it is a veryvaluable something that's appalling for foundations exectually a
recompacted standards. Yeah. Ok.And then if you also look at anywhere
if you're building say on the hillup and him be marching, for for

(15:15):
instance, and it is on aslope, I mean you'd know better than
me, Rouslin, But the costof doing foundations on a hell for example,
can be you know, around aboutone hundred thousand. So you're automatically
increasing the price of a build whenyou're doing retaining when you're working on a
hill. Yeah, so flat buildingsites are sought after, yeah, okay,
And then you think about your demographicand the population that you're you're building

(15:39):
for, and you know a lotof people need accessible housing. So I
know that you know, lifts arebecoming more available and cost effective and housing,
but but people need accessible housing.So that's the other thing that I
think when we talk about the market, that that's the market. You know,
what people are looking for, whatpeople are wanting to buy, and

(16:00):
developers are responding to that market.Yes, yes, and you as the
planners have to know what those oftenall about. They look at the feasibility
of that, what it's going tobe providing the houses. What we also
are looking at is the legislation andwhether or not whether or not what the

(16:22):
market and the developer wants can beprovided for in that legislative context. And
what I mean by that is thatso sitting above you sort of references to
rosalind is that sitting sitting with thisresource of ours, this land resource of
ours, as a finite resource,you know, we can't we can't develop

(16:44):
it without really giving due consideration tous its values, and it's it's particularly
it's values that are really significant.So for example, if we've got an
outstanding landscape which is really beautiful,we've got an escarpment or a significant sand
june, or a wet land orarea of native bush, then we need

(17:07):
to be able to develop around allof that. And then on top of
that, we've got potential natural hazards, so we might have flooding or ponding,
or we might have liquefaction, orwe might have pete for example,
So we have to manage the developmentaround that. And then we've got fresh
water issues, how we manage ourstorm water and storm water disposal off a

(17:30):
site. All of these things takeup land and they reduce the overall site
yield and the number of houses youcan get off a site. And that's
kind of what we do as plannershas come in and sort of put all
of those other layers on top ofthe what the market is looking for,
and then we bring in experts becauseI'm not an expert in anything. I'm

(17:51):
kind of an expert in nothing,and I'm kind of like I'll bring everybody
together, you know, like I'llbring a landscape architect in, or an
ecologist in, or a geo techand if there's issues around instability, yeah,
and they provide advice to me aboutwell what they think would work,
and then I've got to figure outwhether how we how that development sets.

(18:15):
Yeah, it's actually like architecture.Is that using all this information? Yeah,
and you're trying to get up witha really good solution. Yeah that
is meaningful, but also that works. Yeah, but you've actually been honest,
you know who to ask, youknow exactly who You've got to know
who to ask for the information toprovide a really reasonable assessment. Yeah that's

(18:36):
right. Yeah. Yeah, soall of these people your advice, and
your advice does that come in thelike, if you're providing advice to account,
does that come in reform of abig report that people pay for?
Is that what it is. Unfortunately, it's like and you and they provide
such tedious reading too. I feelsorry for the council planners having to read

(18:57):
it all over and over again inbut yeah, we provided all that we
have to do it and provide itto them and then they write a report
and response in a response to it, which is a copy of it all.
I know they're all writing report.Yes, thank goodness. When I
having to print them anymore, wecan just true. Yeah, but actually

(19:17):
the majority of the work happens beforewe write the report. So the majority
of our work happens at that planningstage when we're working out you know,
we're getting the different consultants together andwe're all we often have team meetings and
we'll sit down and nut out withthe client like where how are we going
to how we're going to set adevelopment now? So how much like really
important and put to the client directionand design and port are they getting at

(19:41):
that point? Are they quite strongor is it like depending on the different
makeup of the teams, it's reallyup to the client. If they really
love it and want to be involved, they'll be involved as much as they
want to be Yeah, yeah,And some clients could really give some direction,
whereas some you're providing most of thedirection based on the expertise that they
need from you. I think it'sreally important that we provide as much honest

(20:06):
advice as possible because these are bigcosts involved, and you don't want to
go down the track of promising somethingthat can't be delivered. So making sure
that the information that we provide toclients is really reasonable and based on logic
and evidence. And when you cometo a client with relevant information about a

(20:27):
site, you know, most ofthe time the clients are open to changing
their minds if they've got a fixed, particular mindset about something, because you
know, I think they appreciate thatwe are working with counsel all the time,
and so we have a we havea generally a pretty good understanding of
how projects going to go and wherethe fish shocks might be and the risks

(20:47):
might be, and our aim isto try and avoid those in the first
instance. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, So it really is the whole problem
solong that it's like a design approach, isn't it. Yeah, as a
designing a solution, Yeah, lookingat all the information, but having a
kind of overall goal. Yeah,um, but not known quite where you
can end up until you've got allthat information and what the decisions will be

(21:11):
based on the cost of it.There is there is, you know,
some some projects have more uncertainty thanothers, and that can be really tough
for for a client or a landowner, particularly if you know that when you
have to be really honest and beaccountable for what you're required to yah respond
in terms of the resource of theland. That's right, and it's and

(21:33):
I think that the risks, youknow, the greater, the risks the
you know, the difficulty is youcan't necessarily rush a job because it's got
a higher risk profile. Um itmay, you know, and quite often
it requires you just put more thoughtand consideration into that project and so then

(21:55):
that can increase costs as well.But that is the difficulty when you're dealing
with higher risk projects. And theother thing is is that as land becomes
more and more scarce and we're becomingmore constrained in the areas that we're looking
to develop, those risks start toincrease. You know, we're starting to
develop more marginal land and there couldbe risks around whether or not there is
a natural wetland there for instance.Now that's kind of really topical at the

(22:18):
moment because natural wetlands aren't necessarily whatwe all think they are. You know,
they could be a paddock with somewater loving plant species in them,
and you know, the landowners thoughtthat that's just that's just a weed and
the and the paddock needs draining occasionally. But the regional council will see that
as a natural wetland where you can'tdevelop anything in it. Where would you

(22:40):
come in at that? So soowner, so you know what the the
that's a complex area at the momentthat we're working in and we work close
wetly with freshwater ecologists to identify whatis a natural wetland. And recently we
complete a consent where there was anatural wetland but we were able to use

(23:03):
it for still more attenuation. Sothat was a really great outcomes. And
the farm was wanting to develop theirproperty for residential or and they is that
what it would come from? Oryeah, so well it could be an
urban like there are lots of naturalwetlands that have all around, pot dotted
all around in both urban areas andin rural areas. But it comes from

(23:26):
the owner of that land wanting todo something with it. Yeah, and
the regional accountseil stepping in and doinga kind of monitoring, and then they
come to you. Well, wehave to get consents from usually with subdivisions,
we have to get consents from boththe local authority, the district council
and from the regional council. Sowe will struts right from the outset,
will identify what consents are required,right, and they will typically involve consents

(23:48):
from regional accouncil. And if we'reat all concerned that there might be a
natural wetland, then we will highlightthat very early on and get expert advices.
They need to get a resource consent, so they come to you for
the consultancy and then you understand what'srequired in terms of the content of the
resource. Yeah, that's right.Yeah. So, um, along with

(24:11):
all of the state to day workthat you've been doing, you've also got
all these kind of other interests thatyou're pursuing around eigious sort of things that
are happening right now that everybody's quiteaware of. And you've got yeah,
I mean, so, I mean, we've done recently done work on Plan
Change two for clients for that certaintensificationplan. Chap can I just jump in

(24:34):
like an average lay person. Imean people freak up when they hear about
Old Beach Wike and I being allocatedby this our local council as a medium
density, highly ens medium density.I mean we're not We're not the Gold
Coast. Yeah, happy for paperand to be the Gold Coasts. It's
really devastating, isn't it, becausewe have we have a culture and we

(24:57):
have character areas that we that arereally valuable to us as communities. And
unfortunately, what happened was that thegovernment came in and this was a decision
by all political parties. It wasn'tmade by one political party, but this
was made by all political parties forthis piece of legislation, which is this

(25:18):
National Policy Statement on Open Development,and it required all Tier one councils to
intensify all of their general residential areasand intensify for higher density around the railway
lines and around existing commercial areas.And there were only a couple of what
they called qualifying matters which would excludethat development, and they were natural hazards

(25:45):
wa hit Tapu areas and historic placesincluding protected native vegetation, didn't include character
areas, didn't include lands because Imean, I remember that signing sitting out
with my knee. Who got thiswhole weben are thing that popped up when
they actually exposed all this, whenthe city council did a whole kind of
zoom on, and it actually lookedquite exciting because for them, we were

(26:08):
but over old Victoria villas. Youknow. It was this whole argument,
we don't need to be obsessed withlooking after it all Victorian villas. You
know, we can start to lookat more contemporary. It's something wrong with
contemporary. And it all came acrossreally well at that point, sort of
and through and then now all ofa sudden, when you think of places
like why can't I beach getting it, then you start to sort of pull

(26:30):
back about well, that is areally good point you make. There was
a really interesting Metro article about thatbecause Auckland was one of the first councils
to say, we'll hang on asecond. We have these characteries we want
to protect, and the government we'recoming in and saying you can't. This
legislation is really categorical. We wantmore housing. And it was a really

(26:51):
interesting article, and I think itwas written by by a young Scifolca urban
planner or landscape planner, and theywere saying, well, too long the
really large sections that you know,that those sections and those character areas were
off limits to most people, youknow, except for the wealthy. And

(27:12):
yet those are the places which arewithin walking distance of schools, walking distances
of train stations, walking distances ofwork, which would be a great place
for people to be living, youknow, And that makes so much sense.
And I suppose it's that sort ofprotectionist thinking about why we you know

(27:33):
that that you know, not inmy backyard, that nimby thinking about no,
you can't touch touch these character areas. But then you do see the
other side of it, and youthink, well, you know, it's
the next generation and the generation afterthat. They need to be able to
afford housing. So we have tobe able to do something that enables them
into housing, and we're not,and also enables them into housing in a

(27:56):
way that doesn't ask us to relyon the car. And it's not sort
of like a that's kind of asort of I only wish to be the
slum, but it's sort of likean area which becomes kind of designated as
oh, that's that kind of housing. If you start to when you're providing
like affordable housing, you've still gotto think about those things like schools in
public places. So you're providing acommunity as well as just bricks and mortar.

(28:18):
So when people move in, they'renot just moving into four walls.
What they're getting is a place wherethey can meet others and they feel like
they have their identity is reinforced.Yeah, that's right, and so I
guess those that's what worries me abouta lot of this. It's all opens.
It's becoming much more open. Somany of my colleagues are now building
medium density, designing medium density andwhatever, and you see them popping up

(28:41):
like mushrooms around cavity is all ofthese you know, two three stories three
per lot. But it's happened prettyquickly because obviously there is a yield,
is a return on it for privatebuilders. But it's just buildings. I
mean, do they mean anything,They contribute anything to the livelihood of those
people who own or rent them.I'm apart from the fact that they're it's

(29:04):
not you know, we could beWe've been looking at the resources about shopping
connection and people needing a sense ofcommunity. Surely the legislation's going to look
at that as well well. Ithink that's why it's been really interesting being
part of this plan change process becausethe one of the you know, one
of the things that one of thethings that is not a qualifying matter I

(29:26):
counsel this is these are the thingsthat are not constraints for why you should
intensify as infrastructure. And people havesaid but surely that you know, if
we haven't got the infrastructure, weshouldn't be building. Well, no,
that's not the way the government seesit. We need to get the infrastructure
in place, and we need tostart planning for the infrastructure. And what's
really critical in my mind is thatwe need to be planning for good roading

(29:49):
connections, good open space connections,and our district plans need to be doing
better in that space. We needto make sure that we pretend hit our
those corridors, those public access corridors, and we somehow we can't just be
reliant on developers to you know,get this patchwork of open space areas that

(30:11):
needs to be planned for. Andhow we do that, I think the
best way to do that is actuallythrough council's long term planning process, not
necessarily through the district plan. Thedistrict plan is sort of a clunky toll.
I mean, I talked about thatstructure plan at why can I North?
And when you embid zones into intoa district plan, they can't change
for ten years until the plan isrich changed and they has to go through

(30:34):
this really like complex legal process.But if you start planning for this and
your long term plan and council purchasesland when they are able to purchase land
with opportunity, you know, ifthey're seeing an opportunity for open space,
or if council interesting has the opportunityto purchase land when a developer is proceeding
for something that they might not thatyou know, for some future open space

(30:59):
purpose should be doing that. Sowhat sort of overall sort of skills does
council need to have that kind ofability to to understand where to go with
this? That's a really good question. I mean, who are what's I
mean, You've got utilities, you'vegot group managers of infrastructure, you've got
housing in some respects, but youneed that kind of I have been lucky

(31:21):
enough to work with Frank Boffer,and he's worked in council as well.
I did, but I've just recentlyI've been working with Frank on this plan
Change. That's that plan changed turnand has the way that landscape architects and
they have a different way of lookingat spaces. They look really broadly at

(31:41):
a community. So I might bereally focused on a site and looking at
all of the constraints and the opportunitieswithin the side. Landscape architects they look
at the community and the way thatcommunities work, and that to me is
a skill set that's worth it's gold, like we should be absolutely important.
Well, I actually think urban designersurban design landscaping is very much more.

(32:05):
It's also also very much in thehorizontal, whereas urban designer is also thinking
in terms of like the three dimensionalbuilding as well, and the people based
how a building impacts people psychologically,yes, and the open space impacts on
people's sense of well being, andso you need the landscaping, but you
also need that real understanding of andit's not urban development as the government broadly

(32:29):
says, you know, it's urbandesign, which is that finer grain understanding
of how a building affects people's publiclife. So with the medium density development
that's coming through this National Policy Statementand urban development, the medium density development,
if you want to do a townhousedevelopment, say more than three houses

(32:49):
on a lot, you want todo say seven townhouses, you do have
to come up with an urban designstatement and there as a design guide which
Council has produced. Okay, andyou know books about how buildings relate to
a space and a street and howand the importance of outlock and shading and

(33:09):
so there has to be some reallycritical thought given to the way that a
site is laid out and buildings siton that site. And that's wonderful,
that's great. So we I thinkwe are going to see good things come
out of the application of that centringtoo. Yeah, I do think we
will see good things come out ofit. The but that I feel is

(33:30):
that we need to build on generallyin New Zealand, is how our communities
work. More broadly, how dowe get our roads to link up better,
How do we make sure that weprotect you know, the really iconic
elements in our communities that we wantto have as public open space. Yeah,

(33:50):
because people everyone, you know,why do you come to cavity.
Why do you buy here? Whydo you buy them up? People?
Okay, the real estate game isso predominant in people's minds. You know,
I'm going to buy that house,and then I might do it up
and I might sell it. Butthen also beyond that, you know,
for your for your level of amountof money that you're investing in something,
you're also getting a place, andyou're getting a sense. I love here

(34:10):
because I like being able to getinto the shops, and I like my
neighbors, and and I think asdesigners and as implements of urban development,
you know, we've got to givepeople more than just like a piece of
real estate. I think we're reallylucky in New Zealand the way that we
have m TITI partnerships and that theway that ewe their worldview because they come

(34:32):
from a place of longevity and thereyou know, I mean, I'm not
saying that nobody else does. Letlots of royal landowners do as well,
you know, and even urban peoplewho've lived in Capity for thirty years,
they come from that same pub anddwellers. They like the urban city sort
of sparks. They get that realstrong and push at consenting levels from EWE

(34:54):
and some of that that as canbe quite confronting at times, you know.
I I've been really confronted by someof them, the co papper that
comes out of that space. Butin hindsight and upon reflection, I um,
I'm just really appreciative of of umthose those statements and that and that

(35:16):
co papper that I'm then I'm realizingit's much bigger than me and much bigger
than my generation, you know.Um. Yeah. An example is Tomana
Why which is that? I think, um, this is this is this
fresh water co papper around managing ourfresh water spaces for the long term and

(35:37):
improving fresh water for the long term. And that's so did you commission that?
Did you commission that that statement ofcultural values by tr that that tia
Tiawa have done their own Katiaki planfor the why can I catchment and they

(35:57):
provide there they so with developed months, we will approach the RTA to provide
statements for ours some specific developments wherethey will really I guess outline what the
Kaitiaki plan really is saying. Butmaybe in respect of a piece of lands.
But that concept to money or too, why is now embedded in our

(36:20):
national legislation through the National Policy Statementon fresh Water, and that is really
about putting the why the water,the ywai the water first and looking to
protect that and improve our water qualityover and above anything else prioritize because you
were saying something in your description beforeabout all the water the water character from

(36:44):
him imitanga down here and through whycan I is that right? The understanding
of the tributaries and the water andwhat river and how that is part of
the urban experience here. We can'tget away from it. Like our urban
areas are really defined by catchments,by water catchment. We live close to
waterways and all of our urban areas. So is the tiat are they describing

(37:06):
it more kind of physically to us. So Tiatia work describe it in the
way that it's meaningful to them.So they describe it. They talk about
their values as it's important to themand including making a kai so where they
might get food resources from or ifthere's a wahi tapoo site that might be
in relation to something close by toit. The importance to them is particularly

(37:32):
around water quality and making sure thatwater is treat storm water in particular is
treated before it's discharged into any riversystem. For a long time, we've
never ever treated storm water in NewZealand and that's now come through as a
requirement in the New Zealand the NationalPolicy Statement on fresh Water. So for
all subdivisions now we have to treatstorm water. We have to attenuate it

(37:58):
so we can't discharge stormwater for siteat a rate at a faster rate than
what it would have discharged pre development. So since going into this so yep,
so we attenuate storm waters on SocaJeo on site. We have we
have for that's those are for stof ten or twenty year events rainfall events
tables described quite simple either way you'redoing it. And then we have we

(38:22):
provide for secondary overflow paths for theone hundred year events so they do discharge
overland into our water catchments, butwe treat water in that for the ten
to twenty year event basis, wetreat it and we have been really strong
about that for quite a while nowand how it's treated. So we're seeing

(38:43):
things like constructed wetlands to treat stormwater sure and they do a really great
job and swale raiding gardens, ourengineers design those. Yeah. Yeah,
and there are now this really goodguidance coming out from the regional councils on
what how those work. And alsothey require a lot of maintenance, so
there's also maintenance regimes that get linkedback into the resource consent process, so

(39:07):
they might have to be maintained forquite a few years before council takes them
over, or if council doesn't takethem over, then they have to be
continued to be maintained into the future. I mean there are proprietary storm watar
systems as well, so things thatyou can actually put into your sumps that
you know, filters and things thatyou can put into your sumps, but

(39:29):
they need to be replaced on aregular basis. And the smart folks smart
things text things. That's right,they need to be replaced from time to
time. Yeah, and I thinkthey're more expensive rocks or council. Okay
that I mean, I suppose alot of that stuff that's come through at
that national level has really probably beendriven a lot by EWE for a long
long time wanting better water quality andnow national legislation, so that's happened almost

(39:55):
continued with the average Leaperson starting toget more sort of interested in water as
part of their immediate landscape. Imean it's happened to just Lett, it's
been driven by EWE as well.Yeah, but I think a lot of
people are starting to have that sinceoh you know, I love the water
around me. Yeah, So it'skind of happening at those different levels,

(40:15):
I think, and hopefully we've seenit in the education with our kids too.
And you know, they've been greatprojects like Kiyu Ta Ki Tai,
which is from the mountains to thesea. Why can I our The Why
can I River was one of thetest pilots for funding for that from the
Department of Conservation and you'll remember theprevious mire Mere Guru had really been one

(40:37):
of the instigators to get the fundingfor the why can I Now that funding
and I can't recall how much itwas. It was a lot of money.
We ever appeared of three years,but twenty four million or something at
least something, you know, alot, and that was that was to
be managed through a partnership, aCrown Titchi partnership, and the Crown would

(41:00):
be represented by Dark Regional Council caseDC and then an EWE the relevant EWE
hour in this instance, and thenfiltering down to sort of a community,
bringing in the community. And sothat've been developing this over the last couple
of years and looking at ways thatwe can manage our apper catchment better.

(41:21):
So you met up in the hills, Yeah, yeah, up and up
and record. So there's been andyou know, managing and managing our history.
So looking at ways that we canso that twenty six million, can
that easily be utilized for this kindof project because it seems like an awful
of money. I'm yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I don't

(41:42):
have a big brief and watch thethink how can you make the most of
that? All? Yeah, Andthere's so many competing interests. So there's
pissed control, which is a reallybig deal. There's replanting erosion prone slopes
and retiring forestry. Um. Thereis making you know accessible for you know,
tracking and access just public access alongour waterways. And none of that's

(42:07):
easily achieved. So and it's youknow, it is relatively expensive. So
so you know, why can IA is actually a relatively small catchment.
But I think that that team hasgot a lot of work cut out for
them. They've got the you know, they've got a lot of projects on
the go. Yeah, and theyhave a nursery that they've set up at
Otarawa which is so neat. Yeah, and they have sourcing the EWE is

(42:30):
that year is running that along withCommon Ground Local who has the contract for
the Jobs for Nature, which isgetting some of the funding. And um
yeah, so that are sourcing locally, sourcing plants you know out up and
raco Angi and then growing those onfor back in the catchment right right,
Yeah, and that and they've gotyoung people involved in that project who are

(42:53):
learning trapping and it's a really goodsort of employment, pre employment for sort
of gaining and ployment for people whootherwise would not know which path to go.
Such a to be doing too,it's such a great job to be
doing, yeah, yeah, becauseit's our place, you know, and
you're working on your place and you'regetting to know your own district really well
at the level yeah, which ispretty cool. Um. And so the

(43:16):
whole Mountains. You're saying that thework that's been on the vision thing for
that is becoming a template as away of understanding river catchments and masters you
see where going with that was thatit's not all about regulation. It's not
all about controlling you know through consents, you know the size of your colverts
or you know, whether you've gotto treat the storm water. It's also

(43:36):
about the non regulatory elements. Youknow, how can we support landowners to
do better in the upper catchments,how can we support urban areas to treat
their storm water? And how canwe get that public access along our waterway.
So it's just mixture of regulatory andnon regulatory responses to approve our water
quality. And what's work has beendoing here? Is that going to?

(44:00):
Is that there? Seeing that howthat works and how it can inform other
I'd love to know. Actually Ihave not been involved in how it's going
to roll out around the rest ofthe country, and I'd love to sort
of see some reporting on how sixyou know, weird things have got to
cat for Why can I yea yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
So then the three waters which youmentioned, which is obviously a really

(44:22):
sort of constrained subject, but that, how are you working around that?
How you involved in that? Well, we're not per se, I mean
we're dealing so well, put itthis way, Wellington. Wellington Water manages
the three waters three waters being wastewater, podtable water and storm water for Potta

(44:44):
City, Wellington City, Hat Cityand Upper Heart. And that sort of
model is what the three waters modelis going to look like around the country,
except will be much bunch bigger.So when we deal with when we
deal with a subdivision and we talkwith council over our design solution for when
we're working in Pottitor or Wellington City, we'll be talking to Wellington Water.

(45:07):
So up here in Cappity we talkdirectly to the engineers and council. It's
really no different, to be honest, I mean you're just talking to the
same people, but in a differentorganization. I don't know. I don't
know the political ins and ounce ofthe three Waters legislation and to be honest,
but I think it comes down towho owns the asset and that's where

(45:28):
a lot of the questions have arisenfrom. Okay, but from my point
of view, I think Cappity hasdone a tremendous job adam at providing really
good quality response to our three waters. And funnily enough, that's come out
of Cappity not having much in theway of an asset base. So when
Cappity was created in nineteen eighty nine, I think when the local government boundaries

(45:52):
were amended, we were originally partof the hut by nine I think it
was eighty nine, and then orTACKI borrow, we were left. Basically
Cappity was left with really nothing interms of you know, infrastrut professions.
We had supply most most most peoplewere on you know, either had rainwater

(46:12):
tanks and there were still septic tanksin the in the oven area. Yeah,
and so Cappity had to start fromnothing and we had no assets to
pay for that. So I think, you know, in that short period
of time we've done really really wellto provide you know, fantastic solutions for
storm water, our potable water andour wastewater. And this would be council

(46:35):
engineers and consultants and just mayoral directionsand things. Yeah, I think it's
really come from council. They've hadreally great leadership at council and they've achieved
great things and um, and that'spossibly why there would have been some reluctance
as to why counts KCDC maybe didn'tneed to or needed to join the three
Waters model because they were already providingreally high quality um stamp meeting those really

(47:00):
high standards. Okay, but someof the old councils, you know,
like Wellington and the hat a lotof the infrastructure are so dated and they
haven't probably you know, they've gotto spend a lot of money to get
their infrastructure up to speak. Soum, there's advantages for them to be
involved. So three Waters are sortof like trying to have a national series

(47:21):
of organizations which are going to bere re implementing infrastructure or re upgrading infrastructure.
Yeah, it's common waste, stormwater and potable water, potable water
supply. I mean there has beena new regulatory agency, um, I've
forgotten the name of it. Theywho have a man who are going to

(47:43):
regulate potable water so that we don'thave the Hastings incident in sid Unt again
and that you know, so thatwill be important that we're all that our
potable water has been that the levelsthe level of service for our potable water
is standardized across the country. Butnot everybody agrees with that, you know.
For instance, I think Pike Cockatiquefor instance, doesn't have Fluorida and

(48:05):
its waters that right, Yeah,and some communities don't have you know,
they don't treat their water to thesame as others. So, but there's
an international kind of template for allthe sort of thing like in Britian and
Scotland and stuff. Yeah, isthere something wrong with it in relation to
New Zealand or well, I thinkthat's what the New Water Regulatory Body is.

(48:25):
I was just going to google itand see what the name of it
was. Looking at these kind ofstandards. Yeah, so they we now
have them. Yeah, we're notWe're not going to be any different to
anywhere euse and the developed world wherethose standards. Yeah, I think it's
just a sort of a mystique ofit, sort of you know, it's
the anti government, can't whatever,moving moving back into housing. I love

(48:49):
the mountains to the sea and thatyou across all of this. Well,
um, I'm a it's amazing.This is all topical stuff and you're kind
of like right in there. I'mjust I'm really passionate about about our catchment
and yeah, yeah, and I'malso really passionate about being able to experience
our community and I'm really keen tosee more access into our back country.

(49:15):
And I'm so like, its allinto related, isn't it. You know,
we we have better access to ourour our then we can use it
for walkways and cycle ways. Wecan extend our our beautiful river track right
up into the raker only value outof So we're going to have an urban
experience, which we want. Butthen we can have related to that,
discovering our yeah, our immediate naturalenvironment, which is part of our well

(49:37):
being, it was part of ourreally rich experience. And then we can
intensify. Yeah, you know,then it's okay to intensive, it's okay
to an We can do it incoelligently. We can talk to the Frank
Boffers, and we can have areally deep understanding of what community means and
urban development. Yeah so, andwe possibly will end up being better connected,
better connected as and when you're connectedintensively, then you can talk about

(50:00):
this amazing wick in your head goingup to the river or up to the
look. I've just I've got aclient who's who's got the most amazing development
where they have they have like acommunal space and a communal kitchen, so
they all have their own their ownhomes, their own Fuddies which are on
their own titles, but they alsohave they share into a communal space which

(50:22):
they meet at once a week.And I think that's an amazing opportunit know,
like that's like if you live rurallylike I do, we go to
the record Any Hall every once amonth for our Friday Friday monthly drinks and
that's our commune. Rural communities dothis really well, but urban communities not
so well. You know, Isuppose we have our cafes, but they
can come and go. Yeah,they're wonderful. But um, getting back

(50:46):
to this whole idea of our existingretail bricks and water available, which is
sort of like inevitably kind of dietlike the whole strength ful of in the
whole stretch of Hamilton downtown. Andthen we've got the shortage of land for
housing. We've got this demand withthe urban whatever it's called urban development thing,

(51:06):
national standard thing. So it meanslike having new people look at how
do we resource the available land?Why can't we turn around and then consider
all these as many three stories perthree lot thing, look at the available
empty shops that we've got, andthen revitalize our existing retail CBD into a

(51:27):
mix of residential consult or Is thata problem? No, that is part
of that is part of the intensiticationplane change. That is part of it.
I mean, like, n we'vegot we've got costons, right,
but we could have like residential mixerhere at Capita, Here at Mahara Place,
we've got shops begging for foot traffic. Yeah, we could have residential
above two three stories and then andthen below at ground level, you can

(51:52):
have a different sort of retail typeof mixed use thing where you have office
to grounding, you have you havemore sort of community, you sort of
like hot disking and stuff. Youdon't have to have a poor shop opening
at stores and just really you canhave if you've got different sorts of activities
at Grand Live one and these shopsare going to be in affort, and
then people are going to come toMahara Place because this is really neat stuff

(52:14):
mixed happening at ground level. Yeah, and then you've got you know,
you've got people up stairs. Imean that would mean that we we really
do deal with what we've already gotrather than have to create new infrastructure elsewhere.
That's right, Yeah, but that'sjust me the architect talking building.
And I also love the idea ofless height. I'd love to see more
of a wonger Ne yesque type.Yes city down here and capitat. I

(52:37):
feel like that would be more usYes, but yeah, it'd be interesting
just to see what happens because themarket, you know, will decide where
they where they fund this development.And I think as an architect and I'm
bossy and I think I know everything, I'd just like to tell people what
they have to do, like Imean carriage, can't you Well, I
would have to think that council hadsome ability of your head, real creatives

(52:59):
in there who did have some controlabout directing developers. Okay, you you
know that your market is your marketreliant and and your yield reliant, and
you know you're looking to sell youryour development. But we also require you
to understand what the future is like. And you said that didn't work last
time regarding your peninsulas in the Wetlandsand mike an Iron North. But I

(53:22):
don't know. Try having an understandingfrom a design point of view of the
long term view of how people wantto live, even if they don't know
it yet. That's where if councils, through their long term plan can really
invest in their town centers and dobeautiful things. I was down on the
main street in all Tacky today forlunch. I love u Tacky main Street.
It's a really enjoyable place to be. What's happening here in Mahara place.

(53:43):
Investing in our town centers public investmentis really vital to making that place
something somewhere where people actually want tolive. So it's a real combination rosaland
of both developers and councils working together. And that comes back to people understanding
that it sometimes we might need ratesincreases, unfortunately, you know, if

(54:04):
we want to have vibrant communities andprotect our open spaces, then those kind
of capital purchases and those um,those upgrades to our town seatings are actually
really critical. That that's critical topark our because we've got utilizing what we've
got and I like that we're capitalpurchases. Yeah, that's a good one
because that's what it actually is.Um yeah, yeah, I mean that

(54:30):
that. So, so we've gotthat sort of mix of vibrant, vibrant
towns. We're making use of whatwe've got in a new way. But
then we're also able to because we'rehappy where we're living, we can really
go into a into our wilder areasthat you're aware of and and if you
if you look also, I meanI think um developers are also seen the

(54:50):
benefit of that as well. Themedium density residential standards, they require a
maximum site coverage of fifty percent,so fifty percent of a site won't be
developed, it will be open space. With landscaping we're going to see,
you know, and I think whenwe come out of the recission, you
know everything's going in peaks and tracks. You know, we are going to

(55:12):
see a change to our landscaper inurban landscape here in Capita in particular,
I actually think we're going to seea huge amount of growth. I think
we'll see a lot of people comingout of Wellington and the Art and moving
up this Western corridor. We havegreat infrastructure in place and that's why we're
ready to go with a lot ofdevelopment. And we have a really beautiful
climate and we have a beautiful placeto live. So we're going to see

(55:36):
I think we're going to see alot of pressure to develop fast and so
council will need to come in andmeet that demand for housing with infrastructure and
with public open space and that investmentin places like our commercial spaces. Yeah
yeah, And then it seems tome there's a real responsibility from us and
you and me and local architectural designersto be able to collaborate with Cancel so

(56:01):
that we have a responsible Okay,this is this is capity, it's not
lower heart. So what are wetrying to depict to people are coming in
and people already hear any visitors andtourists, what is our identity? You
know? And as design as we'reall sort of working at that level all
the time, but we don't getenough opportunity to sort of like to express
this in terms of urban development,so that we get so the average person

(56:22):
who's not in our profession gets excitedwhen they see something, Oh that's so
what I feel I am in Capity. That building really expresses who I feel
I am. And so I thinkthat with the growth inevitable growth we've got
the expressway and transmission gully, weneed to be able to sort of put
a hand up, step up,and all get together and kind of say,
hey, we've got more than justproviding long term plans and things.

(56:44):
We've also got to establish how dowe keep doing incremental projects which reflect the
unique identity of Caberty in the builtform, and that gets missed a lot
of the time with all of thesort of development, And those are conversations
that we can capture either to startto develop long I know is good,
it's identity and that really celebrates it. It does, but Tony had a

(57:06):
part of its success as it celebratesits sort of unique here a trained entity,
and what does Cappity and we needto rip I mean, lovely Sophie
and be down on Ramedi have producedthis document about the identity of Ramedy South
and that's a really huge step forward. And those are a whole series of
conversations capturing your extensive knowledge and thenhow you already have wonderful relationships with counsel

(57:27):
and all of the developers which wasalready really really strong, so that we
don't lose sight and we don't losethese skills as when befoward where they can
be really best employed, and justhaving honest relationships up front with developers,
and also just making that I lovethat idea that we are unique, that

(57:49):
Tappity is unique. I mean CappittyIsland for me is as what Kappitty Island
and the tatter doors and the lawbetween you know, I just we can't
the geography. We just are solist in this place. There's a lovely
architect from from Chile who's come fromColumbia actually, who's now residen under Wellington
and just as a lecturer and communityat University Architecture there. He came out

(58:09):
and I was talking about something Iwanted to do about some sort of bok
and he just amused, No,No, You've got to just do a
cross section. This was a guyfrom South America who's a passionate architecture about
community, and he just immediately onpaper just drew a cross section of the
hills to the sea. So that'skind of like almost a cross section of
us, you know, in ourin our sort of sense of being here.

(58:30):
That's why we're so lucky to havethat key to Katai the Mountains to
the Sea project running. Yeah,that is like, that's fantastic. That
tells that story. Yeah, thattells that story. Yeah. And I
think the other thing I was goingto say is we have to improve our
community, community consportation. But justipatorthat people understand what we're talking about.

(58:51):
We have to wrap up. Butthat's been so wonderful and extensive light it's
hard to keep up. I couldtalk about it all day. Yeah,
no, thank you for coming privilegeto have it here. But yeah,
Catherine's saying, rep up. ButI think all of this there's another whole
dimension. That's how we excitingly createtell the story to the community so they
can come on board with us.Yea and use these use these spaces that

(59:13):
we're talking about. Thank you.Yeah, no, my pleasure. Thanks
for having me, and thanks toLearn Matters. It's an exciting Um,
it's exciting planning consultancy. Yeah,it's a really interesting space to be in
right now. And yeah, it'svery under a lot of flags and um,
you know, we're all we're alllearning together in a way. So
I think, um, it's youknow, as communities will just take this

(59:37):
forward and we'll see what it's goingto look like. Hey, we will.
We will draw it as we go. We raw. I love that.
Yeah, we'll draw it as wego. Thank you Anna Carter from
Learn Matters, seeing your planning consultantwith all of your other associated interests here
with Catherine a sort of bystander.According the session, Ross and Daby here
local architecture Now but April. Thisprogram was made with assistance from New Zealand

(01:00:07):
on Air for radio broadcast and throughthe Accessmedia dot org dot MZ website.
Thank you New Zealand on Air.