44, Discussion with Aidan Hart, iconographer and designer of the embroidery for the anointing screens at King Charles’s Coronation.

Aidan Hart iconographer and fresco artist.

He discusses the collaborative joy in designing the anointing screens for the King’s Coronation and his work and history as a former Orthodox monk at Mt Athos and his former Shropshire Hermitage.
He discusses the influences of church architecture on his liturgical works, including at Westminster Abbey. We also talk urban design, beauty, and community.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, This is Rosalind Derby hereon Local Architecture Now and we're going remote
via zoom to Aidan Hart in Shropshire, who is my cousin and he's also

(00:21):
an iconographer, world renowned, andhe's recently returned from Princeton where he was
a keynote speaker on a seminar ondesign and theology. Hi, loved you,
love you to see you Aiden.Yes, it's exciting having you on.
You're such an eloquent and deep speakerthat I know we'll have far more
than weekin Kremen. The last weekendwas pretty full, pretty significant for you.

(00:44):
Yes, it started at the endof November. I got a call
from King Charles's private secretary saying,the King would it's wondering if you could
design a screen that would be putaround him when he's being anointed during the
coronation. Three screens and facts.So what do you answer when the King
asked you to do something? Yousay yes? So yes, I was

(01:07):
asked to design these three screens withthe Queen's coronation, the television cameras just
directed themselves away from the anointing andshe just said a canopy over the top
at this time. The king wantedthree screens to go around him, to
completely cover him because it's it's ahigh point of the service. The anointing
is really, in religious terms,what it makes some king. So that's

(01:30):
a great honor to design the thingthat ultimately is the focus of the whole
coronation. The anointing is the focusof the screen. So I designed it
over the next few weeks and thenwas working closely with the Royal School of
Needlework who most made most of it. So that was a real joy.
Though I was very well designer,I worked very much in synergy with the

(01:53):
makers, and I like the ideaif someone just Talian crafts and what to
do. There was a sort ofsymbiosis there. So yes, you know
the king, his coronation is onon Saturday, so I was there.
In fact, the first time Isaw the completed screen was on Thursday at
the dress rehearsal. I've seen itat different stages, but not completely finished,

(02:14):
so that was a joy for meto see it moving. It's one
thing we'll talk about about architecture.I'm involving a lot and not so much
desiring churches that I do do thata bit, or at least adjusting existing
churches. But I work as aniconographer, not just with objects at a
static but with things that are movedin the spaces within the church. So

(02:37):
it was a real joy for meto see the screen actually being persisted out,
moved around the king and moved back. Were you actually there on the
day of the coronation, No,I was invited with my wife and I
were invited by the King to goto the reception afterwards Windsor Castle the Sunday,
so we're there, stayed on forthe concert as well. It was
beautiful. The whole thing was achoreography, kind of color, a full

(03:00):
beautiful thing. But when the screencame on it was really wonderful. It
was just sort of so expensive,it was so full of life, but
it was also so soft and kindof kind of TecTile in that sense that
it was embroidery. Yes, yes, And I tried to make anything relate
to the architecture, so the contentwas still turning by the king. He

(03:23):
wanted this tree representing the commonwealth.Also, of course it's the tree of
life. There's a stained glass windowin the World Chapel which is on the
steam so it had the tree withthe names of the colon rov nations on,
had the whis called the cipher withthe King's symbol on and a quote

(03:43):
from an English mystic during an actualorganistic She was a woman. I was
just thinking about this morning as Iwas coming up the stairs to the studio,
that beautiful saying. It just wasresonating with me. All member of
things shall be well? Yeah,yeah, And she was a woman mystic
way back. Yeah, I meanshe was an anchor writer, an anchorest.
She lived basically enclosed most of herlife of tons of people came to

(04:06):
her for advice. That's heroic thing, that's staying in one place. So
she knew the world better than knows. She rushed around because she knew her
own soul, so people recognized therewas a wisdom there. All things come
out of the human heart, andshe knew that like an explorer. She
explored inwardly rather than rushing around theworld. All right, Emily Dickinson springs

(04:28):
to mind the poet who the writerWho's poet? He stayed in her own
back yard most of her life.Yeah, yes, And I want to
hear more about the screen as well. Did the King see the screen before
the day. Did he have toapprove drawings, Yes, but he had
seen the drawings of course that Idid in December and he'd okay those.

(04:51):
And then about a month ago heand the Queen Consort came to Hampton Court
Palace to see the works sort ofthree quarter finished. But I think the
first time we saw it completed wasprobably the truesday of the Wednesday before the
colination at the dress rehearsal. Soit was sort of not a surprise but

(05:14):
a surprise at the same time,because yeah, it's one thing seeing it
stretched out still, and it's anotherthing seeing it moving and seeing the light
glinting off the gold thread. Soit's a joy for me to see it
in that state of movement. Itmust have been for him as well.
And also it's a bit three dimensional. Like the leaves which have the common
Roth names embroidered on a gold thread, they're slightly stuffed, that's a replicate,

(05:39):
and then the letters are amboided onso that they're slightly stuck packed,
so they bit three dimensional. Andthe embroiders deliberately made the dove and the
angels of white silk but slightly undulating, so they part packed it, so
there's an undulation and light reflecting offthe effective shiny silk. So these things

(06:00):
it's difficult to appreciate in the photographsthey've seen. The real thing was great,
surprising the way, but it wasalso the movement of the people,
the guys who were bringing them in, you know, the way they moved
it in and they was kind ofpart of it as well. The coverage
of it was extraordinary here. Theyspoke about it in a proud way because
what some of the material was NewZealand wall or Australian wall or felt that's

(06:21):
right, yes, yes, mostof the cloth was with felt woven a
Bitton, but the wall was fromAustralia. New Zealand. Well, it's
really something to be so proud of. The screens have been shown a lot
here Aiden. That's really extraordinary andalso it's going to be seen for decades
because that is part of what getsreplayed quite a lot those screens. Was

(06:45):
that quite nerve wracking for you todo that, that's a super important part
of the whole coronation. Yes,yeah, now it's a great I know.
Well, all you can do isjust do your best and listen to
people and they and I believe inloving your materials. I really believe making
something good is a result of threeloves. Really loving the material you work

(07:09):
with, and I just love fabric, and loving the people you're making up
for, and loving the subject matter. In this case, various themes were
covered, so those three loves youcan't go wrong. And then you just
with all its weaknesses, you justyou just hope that it brings blessing to
people. Sometimes the imperfections of itactually improves a bit, and there are

(07:31):
some infections in it, and thatthose will be discovered, I suppose with
time, which is a good thing. What will they use those screens that
they only now are going to beused for our coronation or are they going
to be put in an ar carveor a museum or kept somewhere A good
question. All this week there willbe still on display at Westminster Abbey,

(07:55):
and then they're going to go toBuckingham Palace or summer for people to see.
I think they'll be near along withsome of the regalia used at the
incronation, and then the screen willbe toured around Britain well, at least
the main cities, probably Edinburgh,perhaps card of nothing. Nothing has been
set yet, but this is whatI've been told they're thinking of. And

(08:15):
then when that is completed, ifwe'll go to the town of London to
be shown there along with all theother the galia that's been used over the
past few centuries and probably finished inthe Museum of London, which is being
restored at the moment. So havea long after nation. Oh that's extraordinary.
I was so delighted to hear yourwords on architecture and the space with

(08:41):
them, because obviously from the coronationit was all about the light and the
color and the costuming and the choreographyof the movement that was bigger than just
kind of yeah, it all workedvisually beautifully. I think we've got a
great disservice with the invention of theart gallery. We take out galleries for
granted, but in fact are quitea recent invention. They came out of

(09:03):
the academies. Art and most culturesis actually an integral part of ritual we
think of well, of course theMardi meeting house. That's part of a
ritual. That's it's the body ofyour ancestors, you enter into it.
African masks which people like Picasso talkingor influenced by They were used as a
religious ritual. They weren't just objectshung on the wall. They were worn

(09:26):
and moved around or a part ofthe larger ritual. I remember the Orthodox
Church and for us icons our doors, as it were, between heaven and
earth, and we persist them whenwe enter church. We honor the saint
depicted on them by kissing the icon. Of course, you've our incense.
All the sensors are used, Allthe sensors are used, and this is

(09:48):
the real role of art. Ibelieve it's interesting that the word art means
to thickly join together. The rootof it goes back to a word aile,
articulate, thickly joined together, dilatedtrucks. Yeah, we joined together.
So this is not just color tocolor or line to line, or
a bit of word a bit ofwood. But I think it's also thickly

(10:09):
joined together invisible things with visible andreligious. The word religious means religal,
to rejoin. So so our fromreligion are really strong. I relinated.
Both are joining things together, thevisible the invisible. So do you think
the human the human person needs tohave that sense of integration of things joined

(10:31):
together in subtle ways as well asobvious ways. We need that as things
that apparently opposite. So we weretalking earlier about space and forms. So
until recently, I used to thinkof architecture is designing things, you know,
the solid stone, brick, warwhatever it is. But really you're
creating a space, and sure mecreator. I mean, that's the standard

(10:52):
stuff I've assumed to all architects.But there is a sort of there is
a sort of sort of pressure withinthe profession, you know. I guess
people think, you know, wedesigned this object, we designed this masterpiece.
And I could never get really withthat through my whole student years in
my career because and I'm noticing there'sa lot of women in the profession now.
I was just speaking yesterday to awoman run construction firm, and their

(11:16):
whole approach on site was utterly different. That both of them are two women,
were talking about people in place,so they just they own a construction
firm, but they're getting it.I mean, they're interested in the impact
on people. And I think Isaid to them, I wouldn't be having
this conversation if I was talking toa couple of blokes. And I think
it was so good to talk toyou the other night that you get this,

(11:39):
and for me, a building impactseverybody's lives. It goes on the
street and it suddenly impacts the psychologyand the well being of those people in
that sort of democratic space where everybodyis moving through. It's not that sort
of pressure of having to produce theultimate object at all. And that's what
you were discussing, and that's whatcame out of that view of Wistmas to

(12:01):
maybe on the day on Saturday.It's I think of buildings as clothing.
So a designer of a building shouldbe like a tailor. You measure up
the person. A person comes toand they won't the suit whatever. You
measure them up and you make somethingto fit them that brings up the character.
So the creative element is certainly therein the designer of that suit or

(12:24):
dress, but they start with theperson as they are. So I think
a humble architect, one who reallyserves people, starts with the community or
the family. They're designing it forthe worship with the building a church,
and then you use the creativity tomake a beautiful garment that fits that person.
So I think often now just rightacross the board. In visual arts

(12:48):
and architecture, the emphasis is muchmore and do something novel and different.
It'd be quite easy to make apeer of trials with three leagues, you
know, and one sleeve. Wellit's different, but it doesn't work.
So somehow, the creativity of anexperience of the maker, the architects,
whatever, it has got to servethe people. It's not that you're getting

(13:09):
the people tell you exactly what tomake, but it's got to raise people
up to a higher level, notmake life uncomfortable for them. Yeah,
and I think part of the creativityof any project, architecture or particularly in
architecture, part of the creativity isnot the end object. That's the questions
that it's the ability who ask theright questions. It's the ability to ask

(13:33):
the questions so that you can derivea brief. And your brief is a
very creative document because that is sortof the soul of the thing. And
from there you know that you're actuallyon a journey of it's open ended.
You haven't got the instant result,but you know that you've got a process
where those questions can come in andout, and then it's creative because then

(13:56):
you know that your process is healthyand robust, and you don't have to
consider about that. You're not sortof so concerned about the the end result,
but you know you're going to getthere, include with an inclusive way
of bringing all of the people asrequired, and also the environment. You
will alert to the environment at thesame time. Yeah, I think that's

(14:16):
what gets lost a bit, isthat ability to have the confidence and professionals
that they know how to ask thosequestions and we need to bring them in
because they have the ability ability tohave that sort of open ended and the
lack of certainty and decision making isa creative process as well. Now I
couldn't agree more. Yeah, interestingtalking about importance of a brief and drawing

(14:39):
your client out. I was askeda few years ago to be a supposed
consultant to a refurbishment of the RussianOrthodox Cathedral and London. Thea is a
Russian audit arch You've made a lotof money available, but the archbishop at
the time it would do a greatman, but he wasn't through into English.
And I don't think you've done thissort of work much before. So

(15:01):
after about a year of these reallygood architects, really good lighting engineer,
doing espect they could. They've everdone an Orthodox church, and I haven't
done many churches. With a lackof brief they ended doing and ended up
doing lots of things which would benice in the museum, but just didn't
really work in the church. Sothat at that point the archbishop called me

(15:22):
in and I realized that these architects, as brilliant as the words, hadn't
really been briefed, you know,they hadn't been told what the end effect
was to be. So there's toomuch light. For example, you didn't
get that sense of of what Icall insta. See when you're going into
church, you want to sense everythingquiet and down and you're into a different
space from your brain into your heartfor example. So as a result,

(15:46):
when I get a talking in NewYork two weeks ago to seminary, I
concentrated a lot on their job isto brief the architect, not to tell
them how to do things, buttell them the end result they wanted effect
on the soul. You don't wantpeople leaping around sort of all excited that
you don't want people board So thisis sort of balance. We call it

(16:08):
a bright sadness. This is asingle word in Greek describing the state of
joy, but sobriety and things likethat. So that brief is just so
important, and some people don't reallyknow as you're suggesting exactly what they want.
That the architect can ask those questionsand help that person clarify what they
really want, and then it's fieldask to help create that garm it for

(16:32):
them. Yeah, humility, doesn'tit people first, rather than my ego
forcing myself on that poor client.Yes, exactly, and if if the
architect has not, our job isto actually derive a brief and to engage
with the people in the environment.And it's not obviously our responsib isn't just

(16:52):
say the client because they're building thebuilding, but broaden it not to make
allow the client the responsibility that theirbuilding is in is a sort of intervention
in an existing public space. Soallow the clients the knowledge that that we
have to serve the greater kind ofdemocratic space as well. And that also

(17:15):
it's not attention. Well, attentionsare great in creativity. Parameters strong parameters
are great in creativity, but itit gives the owner also a sense of
engagement about what they're really really doingas well, which I think starts to
strengthen the whole process of engagement withthem. I think there's an element of

(17:37):
deliberate in completion and the work.So in the one sense, the buildings
completely think that's all done and thebuilders go home, but it's the beginning.
It's a beginning, and it's thepeople living in it and using it
you actually complete that work. Isthat I think that's that's that's trilliant.
I love that. Yeah, Ilove that. I'm talking about architecture and

(17:57):
space. I think really be fascinatedby recent recent studies have actually been recently
published, but as the result ofwork over the last teen years, I
would say is a Bulgarian artist Stroyand I think were by Sara tanchever Panchevera,
and she has been working with acousticengineers, computer um with kids,

(18:22):
architects and Byzantine choir. In fact, they heard of this Byzantine choir.
He led up by Zantine choiring thecoronation so interesting up anyway, So her
book, which is sort of theculmination of these studies, concentrates on aguas
of fear in Constantinople and it's astoundinghow well these two architects, this is

(18:45):
dar design of the sixth century,understood so many things. They did test
on the acoustics. So you're talkingabout San Sophia in Istanbul, that's right,
Oh my gosh, she was.She was studying part of it.
Yeah, that incredible building. Haveyou seen? Haven't been there? Being
there twite three times? It's remarkable. Now are you're not allowed to sing

(19:08):
it at chanting? It's that theywere given permission to pop a balloon.
Sounds ridiculous, but they recorded theresonance from popping this balloon and it has
an quibby long resonance, a livingpoint three seconds of fine, remember correctly.
So what they did then they theyCapella romano Byzanti choir sung some hymns
actually composed for Years of Fear churchbecause different churches are different resonances, so

(19:33):
effectively you create a hymn so that, as it were, the church sings
antiphonily, it sings back to you. So they sung these hymns that were
written for Years of Fear in astudio environment, and then they fed the
information they gathered from the resonance intocomputer and then put the chart into the

(19:53):
computer so what you can hear isactually chanting in our years of fear.
It is remarkable. Then another workwas done, so that wasn't actually acted
out in the cathedral, but itwas, but it was actually they got
the kind of volume of the cathedraland they wrapped it within the computer system
to compile the chance online. Yeah. Wow, and acoustics are remarkable.

(20:19):
So yeah, they really knew whatthey're doing. So there they're not just
creating an object, they're creating aresonant space ideal for the liturgy. And
then other people did studies on thewindows that around the base of the dome,
and they figured out that the originaldome was all gilded with tisserai made
of gold. If they changed thereveal that the angle of the window sills,

(20:45):
the light reflected onto the dome unevenly. So the only perfect angle is
the angle that was there. Youcould change that. The angle of incidents
of the light just doesn't create theright effect. And it turns out that
one of the architects was a wellknown mathematician and whoality with angles of incidents
sort of geometry. Basically, thereare many many other things. I just

(21:07):
found it astounding that these architects reallyknew what they're doing, and they finally
tuned generation to generation and handed onthat most of the architects were probably apprenticed.
Said, wasn't a sort of fewor four years at university that all
these little details were handed on.And recent studies were done in eight medieval
churches in fistal Niki, and what'sinteresting there is that you wan't higher resonance

(21:29):
for chanting, but it's not verygood for determining individual words. And they
found that the resonance in the placewhere the sermons were given was lower and
just right for clarity, that elsewherein the church the resonance was high,
which is where the charging was done. So nowadays and now the theaters,
you can get really good resonance forchallenging, but it's useless for speaking.

(21:52):
They can't get the two together thatthey manage. So I think there's so
much wisdom in past, not justarchitecture, because I think they're more holistic,
you know, yeah, the moreholistic. Yeah, So I think
we have a lot to learn.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was when you mentioned online aboutthe podcast with the group, I looked

(22:18):
up Andrew Gould, the architect forhis new Byzantine company that he runs,
and I mean modern heritage architecture likecharacter cottages and created new is a bit
of a problem, but it canbe problematic. But his work in Charleston
there he was he's working with heritagearchitecture, but a lot of it is

(22:42):
brand new. But it's incredible.It is architecture is it is about space,
the amount of light. These spaceswith their light and the use of
color is so confident in those colors, diverse coloration. And then so these
were actual architectural spaces and they wereindoor spaces and outdoor spaces. Was really
a surprise to me that he coulddo that, but working with heritage detail

(23:06):
m yes. In fact, hewas part of the group with me in
New York and we did a podcasttogether with another mend Jonathan Padrew and a
monk who's an iconographer, and I'dreally increased my respect fan. I've known
him for a while, sort ofvicariously because we both write for Orthodox Arts
Journal, where he founded it.But he is not manage of detailing.

(23:29):
He's really to fick wars wars outof skins. They've got to have substance,
partially for acoustics, partially for heatingand all sorts of things. So
we got attention to detail and thatcomes out in his work. I think,
yes, he's against pastiche, buthe wants if he makes, to
harmonize in that particular environment. Andhe's quite lucky where he lives, the
critical buildings, gorgeous place where hemoved to live there, he got to

(23:52):
renovate all these incredible old, usefulon costious. But the word pastiche is
what I'm nervous of when it comesto you know that an approached to old
made new. But his work wasactual architecture. I fought in terms of
light and space and color. Yeah, and urbanity, you know, like
there was a sense of enhancing theselittle alleyways his experiences to walk around.

(24:17):
He got there as well with theway his buildings opened onto the street and
he had these sort of overarching littleverandas and little sort of recesses with doors
on them, and yeah, it'san experience for people just to walk through
you in all those little areas.Yeah. I'm on the Church Architecture committee
of f Our Parish Church because weneed to expandro bursting at the scene.

(24:37):
So many people are coming, butit's a thirteenth century building on an eighth
century foundation, so I'll see alot of strictures what we can and kind
of do. I mean, it'sa really good architects that come up with
designs. They've done a lot ofwork on Anglican churches, a lot of
work adding modern extensions which can workreally be well. But we're not entirely

(25:02):
happy thought they've come up with.I think if they come to more services
Orthordo services, I think you wouldhave understood better the ethos we're after.
But you know, I've been workingwith particularly the second Priest who's a land
surveyor, and we've sort of tweakedthese designs by the architect. But always
it's this sense of continuity without beingpastiche because you've got this old church there

(25:26):
and we don't want to sort ofimitate it in all details, but it's
got to harmonize. I'm interested inmaterials. I mean, as an icon
painter, I do mosaic and stoneand woodcarving as well as painting. But
with the tempered icon painting, I'vefound that the natural pigments are better.

(25:47):
When you start using synthetic pigments thingsdo change, And I think one challenge
facing modern architecture is things like reinforcedconcrete and brilliant potential, but it's potential
weaknesses. At strength, you cando victually anything with it, where things
like stone it has no tensile strength, So that's why you have archers.

(26:10):
So the weakness of stone actually forcesyou to create these wonderfully pleasing shapes like
archers and domes. They're not inaesthetic decision so much as just a structural
one. So with a lot ofmodern materials, by limiting the limitations of
them, by making them so strong, it's actually much easier to make things
ugly because you have so much freedom. You can't break the laws of nature.

(26:36):
But it's listening subject to the lawsof nature, what I mean?
Ye, yeah, So I thinkit's particularly challenge of modern architecture. But
the materials we have to work with. Yeah, And I don't know you're
going to feel, but it mightrelate back to the sense of Sophia.
We're now doing there's now whole there'snow doesn't plunt called virtual architect where people

(27:00):
are using people are doing architecture asa virtual thing um like virtual cities.
So I don't know. I mean, let's let's total freedom from from material
constraints. I mean, I don'tknow where that's going to go, but
it's a moment in time at theright now. It's not called useful way

(27:22):
of experimenting with things before you commitbillions of parents to making them think useful
in that way. I think.I think people are just experimenting, you
know, extending whatever capacity they've gotwith modeling and taking it to that next
step. And they're designing buildings onMars as well. There's there's a school
of there's there's a discipline for studentsof space architecture designing for Mars. Yeah,

(27:48):
so thinking your head, they're justyeah, we're talking earlier about not
just the interior space of an everbuilding, but immediately you plump something somewhere,
you're affecting a space around it.So this exterior space. When I
was researching designing a church, researchearly churches, and what interested me was
that most, or at least agreat deal of them had an atrium.

(28:11):
So instead of an outside and yougo through the door and you're inside,
you have this limital space which waslike a cloister, but it was on
the west end, So you hadto go through this list called at a
cloister the atrium to into the church. So it was walled so and that
seems it was inside, but ithad no roof, so that seems it
was outside. And there were somecontemporary Byzanti descriptions of going from the street

(28:34):
into the atrium and then gradually closeand closer to the altar. And the
description is interesting, so it describesgoing into the atrium and these a fountain
there, soho, you hear thefountain, you're cooled down by that.
And then he looks around. Thenhe sees this door and he sees a
bit of glistening gold inside, butwould be the nave. So his curiosity

(28:56):
draws them, so he goes intothe nave automat even be an ARTICX probably
the anartics first, which is oftenquite dark. There's not many windows there,
so you're there. It's a differentspace outside it's right, but here
you go into this an artis,which is darker. You stay there for
a while and your eyes are justing. You see all sorts of things appearing
fist, goos, whatever. Thenyou look for the next door and you

(29:18):
see light coming from above. Youknow, so you're drawing in so these
different stages. You're not going straightfrom the outside in. And I've noticed
some new houses next to older,say Georgian houses near where I live.
The Georgian houses often just quite simplebox like structures, but just the simple
addition of an elegant porch. Stillfor a porch that's like a liminal transition

(29:41):
or space, it makes all thedifference. But it's next to it as
a modern one not terribly different.Hasn't got the same proportions. Yeah,
the windows are too small, butthere's no porch and there's no reveal in
the door the windows, so basicallyit's just a face, nothing that penetrates.
It. A very different experience.So I'm interested in this sort of

(30:02):
movement. Horizontal churches are a verticalmovement God to man and man to God.
You have this various stages of initiationinto deeper levels and the horizontal level.
So you just brought to mine yearsand years ago when I was like
it. At the school we hadto do a project on I have no
idea what it was, but itwas something I brought it. I actually

(30:26):
studied your bedroom because it was thisidea. I think It might have been
to do with church. I don'tknow, but it was this idea of
the verticality and the horizontality, andand I was doing like I think we
might it might have been a prelimfor a church design. But somehow I
ended up those two rooms at ForestHall that was side by side, and
I was trying to talk about theverticality and the horizontality, and you just

(30:48):
brought that to mind. And Istill remember the sort of drawings and diagrams
I did. Yeah, but thereyou actually approached me about that, and
you and we had to look atyour designs, I think, and we
talked about it. Right, I'vegot them somewhere filed away, but that
wasn't put That was quite early on, and you know at UNI. So

(31:08):
it was getting those basic kind ofideas going on and our connection spiritually vertically,
and so yeah, I don't knowwhere I went with it, but
yeah, talking about the different stages. For seven years I lived as a
hermit up and the hills not farfrom here. Do you want to just
describe to people how you came tobe an iconographer and how you came to

(31:32):
the Orthodox Church. Yeah, let'sgo with it. Yeah, Okay,
then, yeah, so I wasmy parents and New Zealanders, and they
came to England after they got married, and my brother and I were born
in England, but when I wasone year old we went back to New
Zealand, and when I was aboutfifteen, I became a Christian, initially
Baptist, but then very soon afterwent to a Hanglican church in Auckland called

(31:55):
Saint Paul's, which rejoiced and matter, rejoiced in material things and we had
in sense and ritual, etc.I trained. I did my degree in
English literature and mathematics, and trainedas a secondary teacher. That I realized
really teaching wasn't for me, atleast school teaching, so I lived that
after a year and went sculpting.My father was a civil engineer but taught

(32:16):
sculpting as well at night school.He's very good sculptor and art of being
on my family both sides, mygreat great grandfather is Auburn Martin, quite
well known New Zealand's painter, andthat's my mother's side and my father's side.
His father's Bryce Heart who as alawyer but a very good cartoonist.
So you know, basically art wasmy blood, but I never really dreamt

(32:39):
I could make a living art ofit. So I just never allowed myself
at luxury. But wonder I thought, well, what would you really love
to do? And I'd realized won'tbe a sculptor. And then I thought,
well, what's topping me? Youknow, I could leave teaching,
get a part time job and arrangedmy life so that I could just be
a sculpture. And that's what Idid. I worked at a cafe four
hours in the morning and then thesculptor. So I was a Christian at

(33:00):
the stage, and not not doingreligious work in the sense that wasn't designed
on the hall for churches. Butwell, I really wanted to show talking
about this horizontal in the vertigo.Wanted to show the spiritual nature of the
human person, but at the sametime you might beat to the bodily the
physical. So I was experimenting withdifferent balances of naturalism and simplification and elongation

(33:23):
the abstraction to bring out the spiritualand came to certain conclusions. And a
friend of mine, Ralph knew Iwas on the sort of quest and he
heard a radio program about this.Two New Zealand Orthodox monks who were then
at Masterton near Masterton, so hewent down and met them, and he
came out very excited. He said, I think icons do what you're trying
to do with your sculpting. SoI went down there and was immediately recognized

(33:49):
the icon did what I was tryingto do in my sculpting. And I'd
always been drawn to deeper prayer andso on, and eventually became orthodox for
these two monks in us. FatherAmbrose is still alive. He's based in
Wellington, and so I thought,I want to explore the monastic life,
and Father Ambrose suggested I go overseasfor a while, and I ended up

(34:13):
staying back in England and my priestin Bath in England, where it was
a lovely place. I could actuallysee, Well, you need to use
artistic ability. Could you carve anicon force? I need a carved before
I'm just modeling claim. So Icarved an icon in relief, and then
other people commissioned more. And thenhe said, well perhaps you need to
learn to paint icons as well.So I started to paint icons. So

(34:36):
all developed from there. Really yeah, yeah, and now that yeah,
and so yeah, you're constantly paintingand then you were as and then you
became a monk, right, wentto mant Ethos. Yeah, so you
couldn't do any more three dimensional workbecause of that reason. Um well,
I'm like yeah or not. Isuppose it's a monk. You just wanted

(35:00):
to do things that in line withthe monastic life. So if you do
three dimensional work, really you needto exhibit and travel around and this sort
of thing, whereas iconographic work,painted or carved, reliefed work fitted and
around the monastic life. So itjust fitted with that particular life really.
But then people would also ask forfrisco, so I don't fiscoing as well.

(35:24):
They had to do a lot ofwoodwork at the hermitage the last seven
years as a hermit, so Igot really interested in I'd always been interested
in architecture that had to restore theseold buildings which were in a ruinous state.
Then friscoed it and made the furniturefor the house. So all these
did you make the furniture? Didyou make the furniture not taller? A

(35:45):
lot of it? Yeah. Ijust love joinery and dovetailing and did all
the more cabin and making. Isuppose because the image you showed me was
like the little building that was kindof over a stream that right, yeah,
yeah, And it's all the interiorsof these buildings are incredible. They're
all frisc god, aren't they.The chapel I made was all fish filled

(36:09):
with figures. The cottage round itum that. I rendered that with lime
plot stuff and sort of went withthe sight lumpy wall and then painted it
with lime water mixed with natural pigments, so it's it's sort of yellowy gold
yell and one wall and more weirdopra and another and so there was an

(36:30):
extra little chirp a little chapel,and then there was your little studios home
place. Yeah. Being I convertedthe pigsty into guest quarters or heightened.
That was all stone from stone lyingaround called court site. It's a being
hard stone, so you couldn't dressit. You just had to use it
as it was. Um. SoI made it out of that and other
people helped a lot. Some peoplegave the plain tiles for the roof and

(36:54):
a lot of the timber, soit was really a communal effort. Yeah.
I mean, just the designed thehardware for the door, for the
opening handles and the locks and thepad locks and all of all of the
hardware was set. It was metalmetal work for Joy and so forth,
and Aunt Shillian, Uncle Max wouldbe over and we'll see photos of them
and their caravan helping you from yearto year on site. Wouldn't they're sort

(37:19):
of cannonized by the locals. Hereare these parents? How would would they
have been sixty five or something?But often the scaffolding and Mom was out
making up mortar, and I thoughtthe world coming and working. Yeah,
wild heights of this is interrupted bythe way people and and and and you

(37:39):
aid and you live in Shrewsbury,Yeah, which is now you've left?
Is the is the Hemmet. It'sstill a place that's active that you know.
They've had monks living there that thelast month unfortunately he had he got
quite ill. So at the momentit's a man caretaking it. But actually

(38:00):
saw when I was at the firstrehearsal for the coronation, I meet up
with the Greek archbishop and to talkabout people taking over its monks. I'm
one of the trustees now, sowe're just waiting for someone to move in
with some officers. So still theoperational but not yet becas a monastery,
okay, but one interesting thing there. Basically it was a microcoss in twenty

(38:22):
acres of land and that's sit withina farm. So I was very interested
in this idea of transition. Sojust to get me it was quite hard,
you know, people to have todrive through all these farm lanes and
they get narrower and narrower. Soyou come off a seventy mile in our
motorway, then get on to asixty mile and our a road, and
then to a narrow road thirty milesan hour. I think, gradually you're

(38:45):
slowing down, and then there's abouta three quarter of a mile farm track.
We've got to stop, get overthe car open and gate closet,
or you can part further away andwalk. So gradually you're slowing down and
it begins to change the way onethinks, yeah, and then I try
to develop all the land as anextension of a church in the way it's

(39:06):
applied to lots of trees and butsort of just wild forest made walkways through
with the little hats and little iconsaround. Did you have gorgeous? So
the whole idea of the inside andthe outside that it interested me or not.
Yeah, I think the transition mightbe a microcossure. But then what
you do with the garden outside shouldbe an extension of that. Yeah.

(39:30):
So it's not just this piece ofreal estate. It's not this object.
It's a shelter. It's a placeto be, it's a place to sort
of can you know, enjoy yourself. But also you need to feel as
a human being that you're connected andthat you're gradually moving towards this, I
think. Yeah. And and forme, just in suburbs, you know,

(39:52):
we have our streets and we haveour house and for me, it's
really important to have that sense ofstreetscape, that the houses have a generosity
to the street. Along my street, everyone's knocking up to me to high
fences for privacy, all all downthe street. But for me, the
house is part of it. Butit's also how it creates a street environment

(40:12):
or it's it's offering to the street. And you know, so I think
because I think we're communal beings andwe do want that, and yeah,
I think, you know, Ithink it's really important that we have as
architects that we recognize that the housesthat we develop are also creating a street

(40:32):
environment for the people to I meanwhen people buy into an area like art
like Cavity, they're not obviously they'rebuying a piece of real estate, but
they're also moving in and buying becausethey get something about the place. They
feel. They see the hills,they see the sea, they see the
rivers from hills to sea, andthat's what they're there for. And then

(40:57):
as soon as you know, itgets home down into buying a house,
all the energy goes into that,particularly in the real estates speak. And
often even if you're building you oreven commercial buildings in the area or retaut,
the idea of place gets lost.And therefore I guess it goes back
to the idea of the brief andthe responsibility of the architecture. Ask those

(41:21):
questions and open up the brief andwhat are you actually doing here and who
you're serving? Yeah, the fieldaround the church I go to used to
the horse Paddock really and then itwas sold to a developer, Taylor Wimpey,
and they just stuffed it full ofblocks called houses. They showed us

(41:42):
the designs and then we employed anarchitect to work with us for a future
church. But also they came upwith an alternative. Mark Chord worked a
lot with the Prince of Wales andwith the Prince of Wales's architectural school,
so his plan was really different.It was seeing that the development as a
whole, they were winding streets andhe's creating community. But of course Tell

(42:06):
Womp he turned it down because theyjust wanted to maximize houses there and they're
a lot of stresses just in thestreet, even into our church, and
everyone's sort of competing and it's largelyalmost forced on the people by the architecture,
very little land, even the reallyexpensive house next to the church that
has really little land on it.So I wouldn't like to write these any

(42:28):
children there. And apparently tell aWomp promised a man in our church is
one of the first people to build, to buy a house there that when
they're about a hundred houses built,will then make a playground two three hundreds
no playground yet was the playground shouldhave gone at the start before the houses
was exactly should have been. SoI think myself, I don't know about

(42:51):
New Zealand, but in England councilsare either just a bit week we said
it would stand up to these developersor someone said to me, they just
haven't got the money to stand upin court. You know, they can
turn down a design and then youknow they'll be take to court for over
something and you know it cost amillion pounds and the council so hard up
as it is, so basically thedevelopers get their own way normally. But

(43:15):
I really do think that because mostof these developers money is the main thing,
profit is the main thing, theyneed to have various stretches. There's
not going to probably happen from thefrom them. It's going to happen from
the Council of saying, right,you can do this, but you've got
to provide a school every whatever itis, four hundred houses, whatever the
proportions. It's sad that it's gotto be legislated for. It should be

(43:38):
a whole mindset that everyone has naturally, it isn't a question. Yeah,
yeah, I think we. Ijust noticed in the latest issue of the
New Zealand architect magazine they're advocating gentlyand persistently for reinstating a government architect And
I think we need to have inhouse architects and local council. And I

(43:59):
have no idea why for the lasttwenty years our local council does seat sees
no absolutely no need to have anin house architect or design department or even
an urban design capacity within council,but that we should be at the table
across not just you know, oursiloed area of say urban development, but
we should be there in the housingmeetings, We should be there in the

(44:20):
infrastructure meetings, we should be therein the parks and space meetings to do
that very thing of asking those questionsand what is it that we're trying to
do. And I think maybe inthe last two weeks people are starting to
come up with these words because ofobviously climate change. They sudden to realize
that, you know, we haveresources and land as a resource and people

(44:43):
in time as a resource, andwe can't just wasteless land and misuse it
badly. You know, it's alimited resource. And also labor time as
a resource, and materials or aresource, all those materials that go.
If you put all those materials intosomething that is wrong, it's millions of
dollars wrong. So what if isyour thought about tradition? I asked this

(45:07):
question because I could be a bitnaivea but romantic, but I don't think
I am that there are cultures whereit's difficult to get things wrong and the
cultures where it's difficult to get thingsright. They're looking at some of these
old churches and the way I livedin Mount Athos for two years, a
year and a half, two years, and everything about the monasteries, which

(45:30):
are not there's one building basically there'ssort of a wall with the church and
the center, but lots of communitybuildings around, so it's like a miniature
minister city. Really it's sort ofmost difficult for them to get it wrong,
you know, whereas not difficult toget it right. And personally,
I think it's it's a sort ofhoobus that we always emphasize newness and novelty,

(45:52):
but in nature, species adapt bylittle incremental changes. They're not static.
But you know, a bird doesn'tsuddenly grow four wings. You know,
it's a thousand years that might developas a different color or something in
that that suits the change environment betterthan one with a white fear or whatever.

(46:14):
So I think this idea of atradition not as stultrifying or freezing,
but as handing on an accumulation ofknowledge of what works what doesn't. It's
just so vital. What are yourthoughts about tradition and architecture and that sense
of an accumulated wisdom rather than juststarting from scratch. I have to say

(46:36):
that I'm actually I'm actually like acommitted modern I am. I like,
I like using our skills in acontemporary moment, but in a in a
in an ancient like nature has beenthere, as you say, accumulated over
centuries. And how can we likedo an intervention in this existing native space

(47:00):
or an existing built community which withall of its faults and mess and kind
of kind of compromise accepting what's there. And that's where I think we can
come in as contemporary architects. Sowe accept this built place with all its
mess. We don't have to reinventthe wheel with another incredible new idea.
We can work with what's there.We can we train and intuitively have a

(47:24):
response to what we think is wrongwith that collection of buildings. But we
also look to what we can workwith. So we use our contemporary skills
because that's what we're passionate about,Like we've been trained in that way,
because we have to use existing wehave to use existing technologies in a new
way, because we're doing it now, but we can do it in that

(47:45):
incremental way, you know, likeinstead of doing a great, big master
plan and then gets implemented, wecan actually fall in love with the ugly,
if you know what I mean,and we can realize that it's all
that some people can afford, orit's a compromise that some council made twenty
years ago. Okay, that's whatwe've got. But our chance now is
is to kind of articulate that withkind of a small intervention, doesn't have

(48:07):
to be a big statement. Butwe do these little interventions I call them
pop up architecture or little pavilions,and they can then gather so that people
become part of the design. Theystart working with that small kind of intervention
in that place and see how itgenerates more activity in that existing built space,
and then we can grow from thereso that people become part of the

(48:30):
process, and therefore we have achance of getting it right. Even though
we're doing it now. We're workingwith the existing resources of people and existing
buildings with a love of nature,of course, but in some cases we
have to introduce the nature so asa modernist. That's where I'm at.
I mean some of my friends,because they're so frustrated by that sense of

(48:50):
things. Their whole career as architectsis around restoring old houses because that's where
they get their satisfaction. If theycan restore harrishage cottage as heritage buildings,
they feel that they're getting it right. But for me, I haven't really
gone down that route because I feelwe have a responsibility with what's wrong with.

(49:10):
Our responsibility is to try and intervenewith things and make them better for
everybody, not just someone who canafford to restore an old cottage, which
can cost a lot of money.I'm what you're describing to me is true
tradition. I saw your lovely designfor a house that you sent to me
a few days ago. To me, that works because you're actually operating according

(49:32):
to principles which have been tried andtested. So tradition for me is in
just aping or preserving the past.It's learning the time as principles, and
that's the heart of the tradition.So when I'm teaching icon Paignting, I'm
doing a five day course at themoment, so we have an icon which

(49:53):
you will paint together. So inthat sense, it's copying. But all
the time I'm getting into interrogate thaticon, So why has it done that
way? What effect us that have? And if I changed it, how
would that change things? So reallyI'm getting them to look for the timeless
principles in that particular object. It'san icon. So the same with architecture.

(50:14):
Yeah, um, so, Imean it's what you're what you're doing.
So to me, that's true tradition. Yes, you know we're working
now, you're you're you're applying thosetimes principles in the here and now.
But I've been just sticking at GeorgianHouse and you see it. Yes,
yes, I think so. Um. And what I was interested in your
talk when when you came to NewZealand last year, you do refer back

(50:37):
to people like the abstract artists,the Picusso's recognizing that abstraction is also part
of a tradition. They can theycan get it right because they understand that
the process of tradition that they're they'rethey're seeing light, they're seeing color,
they're seeing the object in front ofthem, and how do they interpret that?
And it became an abstract response backin the nineteen twenties, our sponsors

(51:00):
different time, you know, butyou brought that into your conversation on it,
you know, along with the ancienticonic tradition. That's right. Yes.
In that particular talk, I wastracing some of the influence of the
early modern abstractionists, particularly Kandinski,who, as it were, the reinventor

(51:22):
of abstract painting, and constantly Berkushithe inventor inverticons of abstract sculpting, and
both of them actually came for anorthodox background. Today, so I was
talking about how, yeah, howthe work that they did was consciously affected
by iconography and the principles like forexample, Bunkouzi, he said that I

(51:50):
tried to disturb the essence of things. He said that the embasciles. You
call my work abstract in the senseof unreal, but I give is the
real essence of things. And thisis what an icon does. You know,
if I'm to do, even ifI'm doing a secular portrait of you,
you know, I will try tobring out your character and abstract certain
things. It's like cartoons, reallymean, cartoons capture the essence of someone,

(52:10):
but that takes certain liberties. Soa good cartoon could be more realistic
than a photograph. You can tellthe character of that person from the counterionis
abstraction or expansion or contract or elongation, whatever it is, of certain features
of that person. So I'm beinginterested in in this relationship of old in

(52:35):
you. It's quite a challenge forthe Orthodox Church. In fact, talk
with Andrew Gord when I was inNew York weeks ago. It's a real
problem in America where Summer once anOrthodox church and I think I just put
a dome on and a few artists, then it's Orthodox that doesn't understand really
the essence of say a successful byzAntwn church, and they're not looking at
the local architecture. So Andrew's strengthhas been studying the local architects, local

(53:00):
materials, and making something that looksas grown out of the pop up,
like a mushroom out of the ground. Yeah. Yeah, So it's again
it's a union of kindness and localincarnation, if you like to use a
religious term. I think I thinkthat sense of local is where we as
architects we have you know, weknow, we have we know this,

(53:21):
and we need to know this sothat we're working with what is local,
but we also have all our knowledge, our history of our house, house
history, and architectural theory and methodsand technique. But the essence of it
is local, and it's different forevery street, every neighborhood. I mean,
what I want to do is producea series of books, just as
an advocate for urban design m advocacyis to do a series of books of

(53:45):
each other little townships around Keeperty,and each of them would be different,
but they would be talking to theindividuality of to hollow or the pakakaiki or
what we call the pearls on astring or the length of keeperti Um.
So that then that becomes like ahandbook or an ownership by the residents.
Like a work of art, agood work of art, all sorts of

(54:07):
people can love it, but they'reall seeing different things based on their own
points of reference. So if thesebooks can be something that people see their
place in it, then that's beforewe do any building at all. We
give people this book so that thenthey see that we're acting for them,
that we're seeing what they see.So that's it's a very good architect in

(54:28):
Showsbury's retired now, but he doesamazing line drawings and with colored washers.
And the last few years you've beengoing around all the streets and showsbury and
drawing them. And the street timevery wide, so when you're walking down
them, you actually have to makean effort to look up at the facades
about three stories high, a lotof them. But what he does,

(54:51):
he sort of, as it were, stands opposite and walks along, drawing
as it goes along. So youreally noticed buildings hadn't noticed before. But
what interests me looking at these isthese these the mainly shops, but the
houses above all joined together. Butyeah, these Georgian medieval have timbered and
all sorts of different styles. Butsomehow people come together and different streets are

(55:15):
very different. Like this one streetcalled Grope Lane. It's about two three
meters wide. You can understand whyit's called Grope Lane. Half timbered houses
either sided as either mines that arealmost touched. Oh my god, that's
one which is my lot of filmingis down here, Charles Dickens films are
filmed here sometimes. Yeah, butI sort of wondered why they all work

(55:36):
together. But these one nineteen sixtiesbuilding and just like something's dropped down from
us, and I think one thingis material. These are concrete buildings,
which, um, I think concretecan be really beautiful. I mean the
Pantheon is made of a concrete,for example. But I've seen some exquisite
concrete buildings bridges in Italy Umbers Chapelfor example. Do you like Cabusier's contemporary

(56:06):
chapels. I've never been inside it, but from the photograph it looks good.
Yeah, I haven't been. Thestrengths are concrete. I mean it's
a it's a molten beteer, isn'tit. Yeah, you pour it in
so um So he's sort of takingadvantage of that with face curves and there's
deep penetrated he's but he's got thesebig, blank concrete masses, but he's

(56:27):
penetrated them with you know, withlight, but in tiny, little,
tiny little windows and these big masses. And that was how he's sort of
working in these spiritual church as you'resaying, before you get this big kind
of dark mass, but then there'sthis specific small penetrations of light which creates
that kind of connection to the tothe vertical or the horizontal. But you're
talking about your local architect during thesesketches of your your local town. That's

(56:53):
the Gordon Culn tradition. Like Iwas kind of totally enraptured at architect school
this classic book called Townscape, whichwas one of his books. And this
isn't the fifties and sixties, andhe was an architect, but he spent
his whole time exploring and by doingthese sketches through towns, the idea of

(57:15):
a little space like streets and howyou follow through and how you turn a
corner, and how you experience asan average person, your experience of being
in a city or a town ora village, or going beyond the village
and seeing the countryside. But sohe drew a whole he developed a ability
to draw to give people an ideaof what townscape was, these little kind

(57:35):
of vignettes. And he did itthen, and I think it's just as
relevant now. What government and whatregional authorities in general they just call have
this word called urban development, butit's not urban development. But as soon
as you say, oh, we'redoing urban development, that just cancels out
any of these processes around street skatepeople places for people. You know,

(58:00):
it becomes like as soon as she'swhat happens here they're doing a development.
So the first thing a developer doestheir process is to get a big tenant
holder, a big they're quite proudof it. You know. What we
do is we get a major tenantlike what we call liquor King or burger
King. And then they feel securethat they've got a big paying tenant as

(58:20):
a corner tenant, and then theyget excited about doing the whole project rather
than what there's this development for?And who is it for? And what
resources are we've got to balance whenwe're doing it, i e. This
land resource. Yeah, so weget stuck with these big box things from
the start. The others first thingthey think about is what's the next big
box? And then everybody kind ofhovers around these places. In the end

(58:45):
result and get and we don't reallywe miss opportunities for what it is to
live in a meaningful public urban space. That's what I share you on that
an architect and designer of townships belike a Taylor, you know, start
with the person, start with theperson, and been designed it around then

(59:06):
and offer we just don't think,well, what is this town for?
Why are we making this new development? Can you tell us one or two.
It's duty experiences of being at thebanquet at dum Windsor on Sunday.
Who did you meet? Um,Well, it's sort of King and Queen.
We chattered a bit about the screenand other things, and then I

(59:27):
said to my wife, who saida little bit shy, I said,
well, I'll grow up and getto talk to people and you can enjoy
you in So generally I sort ofaimed for couple, so that there was
a male and female. So firstman, I'm end upting, said what
wonderful things have you been doing?It turned out that he was the head
of the World Academy of Art,the World College Father that the word college
about. Yeah. The next person, I'm in too. He said,

(59:49):
well, I'm the international ambassador forthe Prince's Trust. But that's not my
main job. So my wife said, what it's your main job? And
said, oh, I'm added toa Vogue magazine And then the last feature,
all wonderful things do you do?He looked at me and they said,
I'm the Queen's cousin. So theydidn't even know who. Yeah,

(01:00:12):
yeah, and was it was?It a good meal? All was a
little bit sporadic, it was Cannasand yeah right right, two hours and
then the concert afterwards, so everybodygot to go to the concert afterwards.
Yeah yeah, yeah. Look,Aidan, as I said, we've got
far too much to talk about andmaybe we can possibly have you back for
our Christmas special and we can bein the spirit of the season. This

(01:00:37):
is Aiden Hart, an iconographer basedon Shrewsbury, Shropshire, who designed the
embroidery for the screens for the King'sanointing at the Coronation. This is Roslyn
Derby here for local architecture now.Thank you Aiden. This program was made
with assistance from New Zealand on herefor radio broadcast and through the Excess Media

(01:00:57):
dot org dot MC website. Thankyou New Zealand on ear