44, With Iris Gramegna, Urban Designer at Isthmus

Iris Gramegna, Senior Urban Designer at Isthmus. (A Landscape, Urban Design, Architecture practice in Aotearoa NZ).
She describes her work as designing for people and places, in the geography and landscape of her new home in the Pacific.

"I like to work at the minus one stage of a project—understand and explore the problem, purpose, place, and (most importantly) people. To then set up a brief that has a meaningful outcome not just an output. Having come from abroad I’m excited to discover Aotearoa; meet and work with people to shape unique spatial experiences."

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Rosalind Derby fromLocal Architecture now for June and we have

(00:24):
Iris GAMEGNA is that correct? Yeafrom the wonderful ISTHMUS group. I'm incredibly
privileged and excited to have Iris herefrom ISTHMUS. Um so, Iris,
thank you, thanks for having me. You're welcome. And you're an urban
designer I am. And you've beenin New Zealand a few years. I've

(00:46):
been in New Zealand now for exactlytwo years actually pretty much to this day.
Okay, and you came to joinISTHMUS originally yep, and came to
join ASMAS. Yeah. So ourrecording wonderfully Nick has coordinated this to have
you on and ISTMAS of course iswonderful. You are a kind of collaborative

(01:07):
group regarding urban design, design,thinking, typography, architecture, building.
I thought perhaps we could really wantto hear about your approach to your work
will fully fully interview up with that, but perhaps you could just sort of
give us you your kind of contenton what ISTHMUS actually does and is.
Yeah, absolutely so. ISTHMUS isa group of designers. We've got architects,

(01:34):
landscape architects, designers, urban designers, and we're really an integrated practice.
We look at solving urban problems,whether that's housing or landscaping, with
a really designed thinking approach, andthat's really where it's all about the land,

(01:55):
the people in culture, and that'sreally what binds us in every single
project we do. Um that asour guiding cop to help regenerate. Yeah,
it's it's a wonderful website. It'sjust the best actually be designed,
of course because you've got you've gota houseful of designers. But the design

(02:16):
thinking, I've just taken a quotefrom you, this is what I love.
We use design thinking four stages,discover, define, developed, deliver,
ensure we solve the right problem.And that is pretty much key.
You know, design thinking is reallyimportant in in in society and that we

(02:39):
we endeavor to solve the right problem. Absolutely well, it's becoming ever more
complex as our city has become alot more complex, and really it's a
series of systems that work hand inhand, and that's where it's really important
that we as designers don't just workamongst ourselves as a siloed discipline, but

(02:59):
really work can understand the variety ofdifferent component parts that make up those systems
UM, and that's why the designthinking approach is really what harnesses UM the
ability to unlock a lot of thesesystems thinking for cities. So that's why
we really work in that space.And it gives us a chance to not
immediately jump jump to a conclusion,but really understand the various component parts of

(03:24):
a problem that is posed to usand gives us a chance to you know,
if it someone comes to us sayingwe need a park, it might
be that we look at the problemand we realize that's actually really not what
you need. What you need isactually a better path between these two places,
these two different parks. That's that'sactually more valuable. This is hypothetical,

(03:46):
but yeah, just as an ideaof just really understanding what are the
trends around that context the area,Who are the people, where do they
need? And is the part theright answer? Often clients might come with
that answer, but it's our dutyto kind of challenge that sometimes yes,
and and do your clients respect andreceive and kind of actually assume you're going

(04:09):
to offer that kind of Yeah,I think I think clients, Yeah,
I think clients. Now that wedefinitely do a lot of work in participatory
design and UM, so a lotof clients will come to us also knowing
that that is a big component ofthe work we do, understanding the people,
understanding the place, and really gettinginto the place. We obviously don't

(04:31):
live in every place across the motive, so we need to kind of embed
ourselves and understand it before we cancome up with a solution. I think
that's what clients are often regardless forYeah, yeah, yeah, And I'm
popping up on my feed on email, is this thing about the Northcote Greenway
or our our way And I justnoticed on your website this morning that that's

(04:55):
your job. You guys are workingon that the tip we are the Yes,
absolutely, I've been following it,but then I just noticed that it's
you're you're responsible for it. Yes, we've we've been working on this project
for a long time. UM.I can't speak to all of it because
obviously the great team up in Tamakihave been working on it and really done

(05:17):
an awesome job. But it's beenreally a great project. Um yeah,
creating this greenway and reconnecting the land. UM bringing some of the stories also
to life with local artists. UM. Also the story around resilience at the
moment um. It was a reallygood example of the storm water managements as

(05:38):
part of the greenway. UM thatwas really successful to actually during the recent
floods. Um So that was areally big when actually I think, um
for everyone involved on the project.Yeah, I know, just a massive,
big pool of water. And Iassume that's the rugby field that was
designed to be below depth generally alittle and so that became a massive retention

(06:01):
tank and it was there just intime to mitigate the effects of this recent
one on five hundred year flood andmitigate some of the flooding that could have
exactly for the immediate town center,which is pretty amazing sorts of s you
know, like work innection results andabsolutely so for the listeners. Perhaps we

(06:21):
can expand on it. You know, you were given this problem. There's
there's there's an area north coast,there's probably a slightly sort of complicated,
compromised kind of area and all sortsof ways, and you were given this
problem of perhaps making a linkway orwhatever, or resolving a sort of vacant
park or or revitalizing a park,and did you did you find a hidden

(06:45):
water source? Or was it alreadythere or did you expose the waterway or
that basically it was your job wasto reconnect the little sort of urban center
somewhat. Yeah. Absolutely, thenthe urban Waterway was a big part to
enabling this and unlocking that greenway connection. Daylighting the stream. A lot of
people didn't know that that stream actuallyoriginally existed, so bringing that back to

(07:09):
life was a big component part ofhow, yeah, how it was,
how it evolved. And there's astory that I think all people that you
know, the residents and visitors andpeople they would just could really engage with
just a stream. You say,it's called making it daylight, Is that
right? Yeah? Yeah, daylightingthe stream is it's often referred to as

(07:30):
and um there's also a school alongthe greenway, so it's you know,
also an opportunity for education, umaround the stream and the value of the
stream and what it what it bringsto the community, and what its history
was as well. From NFR andunderstand, I think people prepar be more
and more aware of of of watersystems and by them not being fully kind

(07:53):
of managed, we have storm waterproblems and it's been expressed recently with the
flooding across the kind. Yes.Yeah, so you right in there,
and apparently you bring to the Isthmusyour particular approach, which is this minus
one stage. I mean Irish,you've come from your first came from England

(08:16):
and you were with Arab after youqualified from Architectural Association. That's correct.
An Architectural Association has a sort offamous kind of connotation to it. Was
it was it rewarding being there.It was a very rewarding place to study
UM. I mean it's very fortunateto be able to go UM. And
that's probably what I opened up myeyes. I went in to study architecture

(08:39):
and came out actually probably not wantingto be an architect, which she's a
little bit comical. So you went'tneed to be you're an urban designer now,
but you went to okay, AndI mean by all means, I
learned heaps about architecture and love architectureand that's why I'm still in the built
environment UM space. But I thinkit's that the school taught me a lot
of thinking and it wasn't about theoutputs. It was a lot more about

(09:03):
the process and how you think abouta problem and how you work around it,
how you understand the history and theevolution over time to come up with
a solution. So that design thinkingapproach was already quite prevalent in the teaching,
which is probably what formed how Iworked now as well. So,

(09:24):
having finished my studies, and Imean the explorations at this university and the
types of projects that you're surrounded byis just fascinating. People explore such a
range of different topics, ranging fromhousing to material explorations, to indigenous architecture
to so many different things, andthat multicultural perspective was also very unique.

(09:50):
So yeah, so it was agreat opportunity. But when I finished,
I think I realized, well,actually, it's so much bigger than just
the building, and I'm actually somuch and so much more interested in kind
of the complexities of cities and howthey work and how we make better urban
space for people and not for themone percent, but really for the ninety

(10:11):
nine percent others that you know havea home and have operate in the street.
That was quite important to me havingfinished my studies, and that's what
veered me a little bit into thattangent of research and thinking a little bit
bigger picture. You were lucky toactually realize it and to actually have a
place that you could go to toreally extend that thinking, because I think

(10:35):
when I came out that wasn't thatkind of environment very much. Get the
beautiful building, build Yeah, anda lot of people will have done that
and do a great job at it, but I was mindful that was maybe
not my forte and I was veryfortunate to yeah, be taken in with
ARAB in their research and innovation teambased in London. So that was a

(10:56):
really great stepping stone for exploring somethingdifferent. I don't think I knew that
that job even existed in the firstplace, and that was quite nice to
get those get their work, yeah, and just exploring architecture from a completely
different standpoint. And that was whatARABE had the room for that, did

(11:16):
they They had the w she couldsee how buildings u you know work within
the city context. Yeah. Yeah, because both are very very old established
institutions, aren't they Architectural Institution Associationand Arabe. And it was engineering,
I mean, the fame down herein the antipoties what people would consider well

(11:39):
in the Pacific, I mean,um would be this in the opera House,
which Arabe involved in. They werean amazing engineering company, very very
dynamic back in the sixties and seventies. Yeah. Absolutely, they're working in
this sort of urban design field aswell. Yeah, so they've they've shifted
quite a lot from just a pureengineer for an I mean it is now

(12:01):
I think globally fifteen thousand people workingfor arabum, so it's a very big
company. Um. But they've diversifiedand really found different avenues to explore.
So there's architects as engineers, um, they're service designers, there's digital experts.
It's it's really they were understanding theirproblem solvers at that system's thinking level.

(12:26):
Yeah. So that also definitely openedmy eyes to that. Yeah,
and that's great that the world professionis now so much more fully sort of
operating around the area as a DISTMAS. Absolutely. Yeah. And so from
Arab you you arrived at DISTMAS andyour able to still continue. That's giving
the opportunity to continue explore this approachthat you had. Yeah, I think

(12:50):
that it's been really interesting. Sowhen I was at Arab, we were
thinking around this was around twenty twenty. We were thinking about twenty fifty and
what cities might look like at thatpoint, which is a very difficult thing
to project into and put yourself inthat mindset of what does twenty fifty look
like and being open to some ofthe new technologies that are coming and how

(13:15):
will that impact the ways we livein the things we do. So that
was a really big picture experience,and coming here at us it was an
interesting change of scale of being alot more localized and thinking a lot more
in the context the very specific context. I think at an Arab I was

(13:37):
looking at it in a very bigpicture, yeah, just cities in general
and what it means for the future. Versus coming here, I've been able
to really explore that and a muchmore localized scale and understanding the context of
auto, which is also extremely unique. I think I don't know many places
in the world that have this interestingduality of cultures, which I think is

(14:00):
just so rich and so exciting aswell. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
I think the local is how wecan really inform ourselves, and that
brings on the participation, the publicparticipation aspect of it, and storytelling and
being able to ask what the questionis that we're trying to solve in a
very practical on the ground sort ofway, and it's really exciting because you

(14:24):
can see what the problems are,and if you're in a field such as
yourself, you've got the opportunity toactually look at ways to pro bost questions,
present the questions, and then beable to expand on them professionally.
Yeah, and I think we're alsoat a time where experiencing experience of our

(14:45):
cities is becoming ever more important.So when I was at Arab there was
definitely we were in a trend ofunderstanding, Oh okay, the experience,
especially with COVID and what happened duringCOVID. All of a sudden, the
streets became such an important component ofthe way we thought of our cities,
something that may have been a littlemore neglected in the past. All of

(15:05):
a sudden, you know, thestreets were like, Wow, but these
are spaces that are so important tothe general public. We need to really
put a bit of effort in rethinkingthese spaces and what does it mean.
And so the experience and your journeysthrough these spaces was really becoming a topic,
a hot topic, and coming hereI've seen something very similar, but

(15:28):
also through the cultural lens as well. People are really wanting to feel these
cities, to breathe the stories andbe reflected in the spaces that they live
in. So it's really interesting,how Yeah, at a very global scale
and back in London that that wasalready starting to emerge, But here it's

(15:48):
already quite well ingrained and this ideaof experience through design has really come about,
which is really cool to see.Yeah, not thinking of one singular
experience, but thinking of a multitudeof different experiences in ways we experience your
cities. It's so it's so goodto hear that up there, you're finding
you've immersed yourself and that there wasan openness to what's happening in the public

(16:14):
places and that we need to sortof do interventions and things because I find
here it's still a struggle to getthat idea across, but I, like
you, I found almost like inthe last ten days, two weeks,
four weeks, six weeks, it'ssuddenly becoming more of a kind of common
vocabulary of common in discussion. Happenedquite slickly. Yeah, Yeah, the

(16:36):
idea of placemaking and in public spaceand also the communication side of architecture as
well. Yeah, and giving peoplethe knowledge that they can actually influence those
spaces. Especially here in oh Ithink there's a lot of room for a
participate of design and opportunities to beinvolved in the design of your city if

(16:56):
you want to. So, youknow, by all means, we want
to encourage people to tell us whatthey want, what they think, how
they want to feel in their spaces, because at the end of the day,
these spaces are for them. Um, yes, we are also experiencing
them, but we're we're here tokind of represent them and everyone else.

(17:18):
I think many communities as we can. That's amazing. I think maybe because
you've come from sort of somewhere else, you can see the optimistically so much
more clearly, which is so umit gives me a lot of positive positivity
because you can see it. Thisis what we're going to do, this,
this is how it is. Youknow, this is what what what
it's about. I think here we'rebut you know, there's still a sort

(17:38):
of like history of struggle to tryand get that kind of professional approach across.
But it sounds like you're sort ofit's it's it's what's going it's the
norm. It is definitely the norm. I think here UM and itseness has
really embraced that as well, whichis really awesome to say. So,
how do you UM feel how doyou encourage this participatory process, you know,

(18:03):
let's get the story across and andfeel there was a professional sort of
discipline around this process. Is thatsort of a formalized discipline. I don't
think it's a formalized discipline here thismiss We try and make sure that all
our designers are capable of this participatorydesign and embedding that into their work.

(18:23):
And one key thing I think thatwe've realized in the last couple of years
is really about the communication and howwe communicate with the general public. And
it's such a way that they canunderstand the language of urban design and architecture
and cities and feel like they caninput. Often I think in the past
people have spoken about all these complexinfrastructure projects and it's a language people are

(18:48):
like, I can't relate to this. And more and more we're finding the
communication tools we use are extremely importantand valuable in shaping our cities and making
sure that every one can input.So yeah, that's been a big learning
I think in the last couple ofyears is how we engage, we need
to be very mindful of who we'reengaging with and making sure that they feel

(19:11):
comfortable and there you know, that'san open platform for them to just say
what they like, because ultimately thedesign, the design product is representing them
as you say, and it's andit's just reinforcing how people actually instinctively feel
about their place anyway, and ifyou can hand it back to people,
they are the ones that are usingit, and it's just that joy of

(19:33):
saying, oh, here's a builtintervention which actually speaks to me in the
way that I identify with those playsanyway. Yeah, and I think they're
also building in change into our designsas well, especially when we are doing
participatory design or testing ideas. It'sreally important that our designs are flexible and
show this adaptability so people don't feellike it's a permanent solution. This is

(19:57):
something we're working to we're working throughthe process with you and you know,
if there's room to change, andthat's really essential. And that's what we've
been really doing on some key projectsaround um Timaru, around some tactical projects
UM and basically creating a tactical masterplan essentially using tactical urbanism approaches to try

(20:19):
and define a masterplan scale um forthe regeneration of the town center. And
that that was quite a um bravebrave from the client to take on something
quite innovative. How do you dosomething that's quite um typically quite small scale
and scaling it up to the scaleof a town center and testing it um.

(20:41):
So that's been a really great experienceas well. Um Yeah, Timreu,
I adore timrou it's such a goodgeographically. Geographically, it's amazing.
And then down at the wharf,all those old wharf buildings, So it
needs needs something like what you're whatyou're describing to go into it. But

(21:04):
it's got the bones. Is suchan exciting it has the bones, but
it's also got you know, theunfortunate thing today is the strips of retail
where you know, retailers moved onas an activity. It's all online and
you've got this bricks and mortar.It needs people like Isthmus to come in
and just I don't know what you'redoing, but that is a town that

(21:26):
can you can reinforce its strengths butgive people of love of the city.
Yeah, we when we first wentto site and discover. I mean I
didn't know to room as you canimagine um, and yeah, there was
just it had all the bones there. It was just needing a little It

(21:47):
just needs a little bit of aboost and more people, and it has
all the right ingredients at the momentumwhere you know, shifting and people are
actually wanting to live in the suburbsbecause they can actually work remotely. That
you know that that's an interesting trendwhich means that some younger people actually choose
to live in smaller towns and cities. And that's actually something here in Ada

(22:10):
that's becoming ever more interesting and importantis considering the kind of smaller towns and
regions UM and understanding how we canbring those little suburbs to life. The
fifteen minute city that is so oftentalked about back in Europe or so forth
is completely some way relevant, butin a very different way kind with these

(22:32):
regional centers that are actually really strong, have a strong identity, and we
can really help revitalize them by enablingbetter connectivity and so forth. So yeah,
so Termer has been a really interestingcase study UM and project to understand
that regional context and how these citiesreally can can breathe a lot of new

(22:56):
life to the suburbs and to theregional areas, and you really get that
idea of global local. You've gotthe local city of Timrou, but it's
connected globally, but it's it's it'sfully operational within itself as a sort of
place of environment and built belt ingredientand people and activity, but it could

(23:18):
connect can connect with anywhere. AndI think it's also giving the local people
reminding them that they've got all theseamazing ingredients at their doorstep. And just
even just doing that or any opensthe door to conversation and to people wanting
to be engaged in oh what areyou doing? Oh what is this master
plattern? Why why are you lookingat this? Well, you know,

(23:40):
and it just becomes a tool forus to have an open dialogue with a
lot of the community. But alsothe outcome, the belt outcome, that
becomes an ongoing dialogue as well,which the community can then bounce off of
that. What you introduce in termsof an open design and kind of scheme,

(24:00):
then that actually is another stage inthe communication. And then and then
you know, you get an economicactivity out of that because people are conversing
around that little public space. Thenideas flow between them and people start thinking
about other businesses. Yep, that'sexactly it. And that's the nature of
why the tactical master plan, andwe've been trying to show people that this

(24:23):
is a work in progress, we'reworking through with them, and that's where
that designing change into our temporary solutionsis really important, because then it should
unlock, hopefully an option a platformfor people to want to talk about it
and share their own ideas and whyit works, why it doesn't work,
What experience do they want to have, What journeys do they want to make

(24:45):
in the city, And those arethe things that we we can't know as
non locals, but we can helpunlock those things that they might want.
Yeah, yeah, and you cansort of identify it sort of pathways and
navigation sort of interesting people are alreadydoing, but you can identify these as
great experiences as to how people walkaround the city and the views they have,

(25:07):
and connecting the history the old buildingswith the new and also saving some
of these sort of wit land areas, I mean not at the northern end
of the town. People have workedon this kind of little rural patch where
there was a shy and you cantell those stories. I was just going
to add. One thing is thatI've also probably discovered from coming to Alta
is the significance of landscape. Soand especially as obviously thissiness comes from a

(25:33):
landscape background. Um And I thinkevery single designer here as miss starts with
the land and looks at the landand how you know the topography, the
cliffs, the water, how howthings relate and connect in that way,
which I think is really powerful.It's very I personally have it, I
mean not have an extensive history ofwork experience, but from what I've seen

(25:56):
overseas that that's quite a unique coach, which I think is especially in today's
day and age with climate change,that's extremely valuable to start up with the
land because if you're going to respectthe land, you're able to put design
solutions that are respectful of that.Um and of and actually that ties very

(26:18):
nicely as well with what is meaningfulto often monofena as well is to do
with the land. So there's thisreally interesting yeah synergy that's happening. Wow
wow um And that's on routes backinto people's well being. Because people are
connected, even if they it's sortof been disassociated from it. Deep down,
we're connected to our land and intelligentlyisn't Our native intelligence responds to the

(26:44):
land around us. And if ourbuilt places reinforce that knowledge that we have,
then our well being is is isso much better because we're sort of
more at peace where we are yeaand supports us. Yeah, and that's
exact who were happened during so duringCOVID in back in London. I mean,

(27:04):
obviously what became the most precious thingyou could have was outdoor space,
like anywhere else in the world really, but I think it was a bit
of a tipping point for these bigcities to realize, well, oh my
goodness, we really need to focuson these public spaces and reconnecting ourselves with
the wilderness, with the land,just because it's slightly been not neglected,

(27:26):
but forgotten about how valuable it actuallyis. And I think COVID was in
some way of real trigger to realize, oh, this is not just about
climate change, it's also about ourown sanity and well being. Yeah.
Yeah. When I was obviously,as you know, I was so struck
by the incredible tall buildings, thatthe whole belt landscape is what we as

(27:48):
you know from at we experienced inEurope, and it is very much about
the history and the collection of buildingsand how Paris feels to you when you're
walking around it. And then Irealized I came at New Zealand and our
architecture is as our mountains as ourhills. You know, that's our architecture
is these huge hills. I meanit was a bit sad because I love
the extraordinary architecture of Europe and thehistory, but still you're coming to see

(28:12):
it as as a professional from anothercountry and you're working with what with that?
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.The history of is the land right,
and I think people sometimes we forgetabout it, but that's really what
it is, and I think that'samazing. I don't think there's any other
place in the world where that isso prevalent and strong. Yeah. I

(28:36):
really exciting, very encouraging to hear. I mean, the thing about tim
Eru is the land is so dominant. It's a bit like Wellington the building.
I mean a lot of our citieshave been planned in Britain and laid
over a sort of like a gridsystem and they've just been laid and remotely
and there's sort of ignorance of land. I mean absolutely, it's timrou The
land is boosting out on all sides, and that's what makes it a dynamic

(29:00):
urban center. Yeah, I wouldcompletely agree with that, and I think
it's I'm not looking at these towncenters and unlocking this the original which goes
back to the Watahas you know,Greenway. It's about looking at the connections
that used to be that we've kindof neglected and forgotten about and bring them

(29:21):
back to life and giving them anew new form that is more true to
kind of its origins in the place, and it really breathes new life into
that into that area. I rememberNorthcote was really quite conflicted when I was
up there several years ago, sosort of the retail was very competitive,
it was very sort of there wasso much going on, but it was
a bit unresolved. So working withthe land as a way of reconnecting and

(29:45):
then I guess stories from that experienceof that river experience and the wetland,
it comes back into the community.Yeah. Yeah, Yes, Willington is
we hit. The big thing forus was when they megan rage exposed the
waterway down at Wellington Harbor. Imean we'd been ignorant of it for years,

(30:07):
and then that's sort of transformed ourexperience of our waterfronts, the way
they did the landscaping exposing the KumatotoStream. Yeah, So what I'm interested
in is how the work that youdo, and you're talking about the stories
that communicate to people and so thatthe people become part of the process,
and then that generates their decision making, perhaps around things that they might want

(30:30):
to do in terms of business oror a business activity in an essential and
then that creates an economic I meancouncils and businesses, they're looking at the
economic outcome. But when you dothese things, when people are busy because
they're seeing opportunities just in their immediatebelt environment, then they start to think
about projects and you get the economicactivity development. Going back to my architecture

(30:53):
study, and this will makes sensein a minute. I've letting go of
being an architect and this idea thatyou know, everything needs to be a
finished solution and finished polished building.We've kind of gone into our I have
disassociated from that and thought, okay, well, actually the process is so
much more rewarding. And while itcan be extremely difficult, I'm not going

(31:18):
to lie. The processes can beextremely complex with so many different parties involved
and having to meet certain deadlines,but also all of these things, the
process is often the most rewarding part, and it's about the relationships that you
form as well with people along theway. And I think that's also here
is AM's what you know we're tryingto do as an integrated as a line

(31:41):
studio is let go a little bitof what you know we think is our
profession or discipline and think a littlebit across the board is how what are
we really trying to do here?And it goes back to the land of
people in the culture, and thatactually has nothing to do with designers or
our disciplines. It has to dowith what's outside, what's on the street,
what do we want to want peopleto experience, And letting go a

(32:07):
little bit of that kind of siloedapproach and architecture landscape and thinking and blending
those together, going back to thecomplex systems and thinking as a group is
so important. So letting go alittle bit of the planning and the very
clear outputs. Every milestone is actuallyreally beneficial. You're so lucky to be

(32:29):
in an environment where you can explorethat level. I mean, what I
liked at a recent council meeting wasour very very brilliant share of twenty one
year old counselor who could handle uncertaintyand decision making. You can see the
way she was handling it is thatshe was comfortable with not having to have
a decision, and it made thewhole meeting so much more effective, so

(32:51):
meaningful information flow. Being able tomake decisions without uncertain with uncertainty, with
uncertainty, Yeah, I think theuncertainty is where I thrive often. I
think, yeah, it's just aninteresting space to be in. Nobody has
the real solution, and yeah,letting go of always thinking you know everything

(33:12):
is actually quite refreshing and letting otherpeople help you find that answer and finding
it together is actually really yeah nice. But to be in a sort of
professional environment where you can operate atthat level, I think is very revealing
to me that this is sort ofthere and you're able to do that,
And I think that, I mean, I hope that's actually where the professions

(33:36):
are going in the design space isever more overlapped and learning from one another.
I haven't been across a lot ofthe education system as of late,
but I can imagine that that's somethingthat's shifting as well quite a bit in
the ways it works and operates.No how people learn very quickly. I
noticed on the website that you,Lisa Remo, I think is you've just

(34:00):
got to obviously the East Coast dramaafter Auckland was the incredible floods and stuff,
and and that you're actually having somesort of thought around what can happen.
I mean, that's another whole landscapein which the questions are realising.
And I can see that this musslooking at that as well. Yeah we
are. Yeah, that's it's definitelysomething we've been looking at. And I'd

(34:22):
probably be better off telling you tospeak with Lisa Rummer because she's she's all
across it, and she she's theone leading the charge on that. But
yeah, now, when such disastershappened, we do try to see it
impacts the way we have to thinkabout our cities and the ways we design.
So just like the stormwater, umexample, I Wataha for the rugby

(34:45):
field, um, those are thingsthat are learnings for us to make sure
that we realize that these these areimportant decisions we are making, even if
in the moment it feels like,oh, this might never happen. Well,
actually a lot of these things arehappening more more, and we need
to be future focused as designers.Yes, we need to help with the

(35:07):
now, but we need to beable to bring that foresight, in that
vision to the projects that we arecurrently and because things are changing rapidly and
we need to stay on top ofit in order to make a more resilient,
resilient future for everyone. Well,I'm having a meeting with a local
council this evening, and you know, I really wish that they could hear

(35:28):
this kind of thinking. So I'mglad it's fresh on my mind this afternoon.
You know, this is this isI mean, I hope that people
hear this and find that design andthe design world is as as you say
it is in terms of providing thatkind of it's not a service, it's
a kind of like it's educational kindof community involvement process. Yeah, this

(35:50):
this whole minus one stage. Imean, this is what I'm talking about
as well, and it's really greatto have you this is a subject right
now when you hear is as youguys say, it's actually trying to solve
the right question. And then youknow your website is also so informative.
And you thought you're talking in termsof how your processes, which is to
communicate, but the website actually doesthat as a design product as well.

(36:13):
The way it's spelt out. Imean, you've got here thinking and sorting,
You've got place typology and sort andunder place. You've got a choice
of everywhere. You've got coast.It's sort of naming some of these things
too that not a little sort ofit just sort of triggers you that coast
or country or neighborhood or city.I mean often just having those words there,

(36:37):
they're not typically spelt out in educativeway, and just one word can
can give people the freedom to thinkyes. I relate to that the wonderful
Irish Romnia from Isthmus talking about yourexperience as an urban designer coming from London

(37:00):
with great questions and applying all ofher knowledge here in a Tierraa. I
found that into you incredibly exciting.We're only just beginning. It's just such
a great questions that she's throwing up. I really hope that this interview has
been useful for Chustiness and for Iris, And definitely it's pretty dynamic for me

(37:21):
to be able to have this conversationand being able to open it up to
to people here that we work witheveryday Council. And also this moment moment
like feel that she's describing. Itoo had been feeling that almost the last
month or two, all sorts ofpeople across various platforms are talking about community

(37:42):
ites. We're free are unable totalk about community We're free, are unable
to talk about the importance of thespace between buildings. We don't have to
rush to make these really important.You know, we've got to have a
building, We've got to have adecision right now. It's actually opening up
the conversation, and I think acrosssay it's not just siloing us architects into
being the people who do the designon request. Design thinking and the solutions

(38:07):
and questions that we can ask canbe valued across many around the table and
various levels of management, housing,infrastructure, storm water, even communication design,
particularly communication. We can communicate whatwe can offer communities, then that's

(38:28):
going to be a real help forus as well, so thank you Iris,
Thank you Nick Kapika for another directorat ISTHMUS for helping to get this
zoom going and Iris Gramina from ISTHMUS, thank you very much. This is
rosalind Derby Local Architecture Art. Thisprogram was made with assistance from New Zealand

(38:59):
Donnie for ready a broadcast and throughthe Excessmedia dot org dot NCD website.
Thank you New Zealand on here.