47, Tania Ihlenfeld on building success without compromise

Tania Ihlenfeld joins us from London. Tania is the CEO and Founder of Ede Enablers Ltd and the author of Build Success. Both her company and recent book are committed to developing and supporting formidable leaders to deliver impactful, future-fit built environments without compromise.

Episode Transcript

(00:13):
Hi, this is long Derby againfor October on Local Architecture Now, and
we have from London, Tania Edenfield. Thank you so much for having me.
You're welcome. We've I've seen youacross the ear waves over the last
year, initially on the Woman's InternationalWoman's Days from POSYUM twenty three. I

(00:36):
think yeah, I was on.Actually there's a follow up disrupt symposium that
I think we were introduced and yeah, I think yeah. You and I
have just been liaising since, haven'twe. So, and I'm I'm from
Melbourne, Australia. So although I'vebeen in London for the past sixteen years,
you know, my history has beenin Australia, so not too far

(01:00):
away from you, not too faraway from So only fifteen sixteen years in
London and you've achieved what you've actuallyaccomplished some pretty major projects. To the
listeners. Turnia is going to bespeaking about her new launch business, which

(01:22):
is coaching building professionals for an ultimatelybetter urban environment, which we can go
into deeply. But also we wantto hear about Townia's most recent experience as
an architect a team leader in majorinfrastructure projects in London around around Britain.
Yeah, and I think really mybackground story is an architect studying in Melbourne

(01:48):
and you know, probably quite typicallystarting in a small practice in Melbourne,
and then that small practice grew toabout thirty odd people, and you know,
I was doing cential projects and reallyenjoying the crafting of architecture there.
But at the same time I wasinvolved in master planning projects too, and
I love those two different plays ofscale. But I think it was that

(02:12):
window into the urban design projects,urban design frameworks and some master plan projects
that opened my eyes to what's reallypossible for architects really in terms of how
you impact and change neighborhoods and impactand influenced cities. And I think for
some reason I was just so drawnto it. But at the same time,

(02:36):
when you're starting out doing urban designprojects but you haven't really built big
projects and yet you're playing it felta bit like playing around in a in
a playbox with things that I didn'tquite understand. So although I enjoyed what
was possible, I just I couldsee how much I didn't know. So

(02:58):
I think whilst I had that windowinto larger scale things, and I think,
you know, as an Australian whotraveled in my gap year of study
around Europe. I think I wasjust drawn to this. I know,
I know there's bigger things to do, and I really want to understand how
to create these bigger projects. Andso actually my husband got the call to
come to London, so I thinkI obviously just jumped at the chance to

(03:22):
thinking, okay, now I canget involved in some larger projects. I
guess making a change liberates your abilityto to say okay, moving countries,
making a change, it gives youa chance to really go for what without
limitations. Yeah. Absolutely, Imean I think the limitation was when I

(03:43):
arrived at Grimshaw and I ended upstaying there for almost thirteen years, and
just the projects got bigger and morecomplex over time. But I think what
was interesting is that I because I'dbeen starting out in a small practice and
working on smaller scale projects as wellas these urban desig projects, to be
fair, but I was leading.I was a project architect and leading from

(04:04):
the get go. And then ofcourse I arrived at a large architectural practice
in London with larger scale projects andsuddenly I'm now just a very small cog
in a very big wheel, andI think that's the thing, like I
was wanting to learn, I wasjust wanting to absorb as much as possible.
So in many ways I knew thatI couldn't just walk into a project

(04:26):
architect role on these larger projects.It would have been too daunting in any
case. So it was it wasan opportunity to gain insight into these bigger
projects and then work my way upinto a project architect role and then leading
big, big projects. So yeah, I think it was quite looking back,
I'm grateful that it was a stepis a step by step thing.

(04:47):
I wasn't just thrown in the deephand or anything. So yeah, right,
So you did have that sort ofapprenticeship role, so you knew where
you were at at each stage,and you had, by the time could
be a team leader in your historyof training and apprenticeship. And what I
love about London is you know,you work with people from all around the

(05:09):
world, and I guess you know, a practice like Grimshaal does attract a
lot of architects from all around theworld as well. So actually, curiously,
one of my first projects at Grimshalwas working with a New Zealand architect
and he was leading, so Iwas surrounded. I'm really I'm so fortunate
in my career surrounded by so manytalented architects who kind of spur you on.

(05:30):
And I think the other thing I'vereally enjoyed is, you know,
the wider consultant teams in terms ofyou know, architects have a role to
play in how teams gel together andbringing in all these expertise. And I
think that I've also been fortunate thatthe projects I've worked on have involved some

(05:51):
quite specialist requirements, so it meansthat you have a broader spectrum of consultants
that you end up working with,which so I think it's fascinating because it
opens your eyes as to what yourrole as an architect is and how you
can draw in other talent and expertiseand help navigate through all of that for
your client. So it's yeah,it's been a fascinating journey. But at

(06:15):
the same time, of course,I'm talking about all the things that we're
working really well. At the sametime, you know, it was hard,
and I could see it was notjust hard for me, but hard
for the teams around me, difficultfor clients, difficult for the wider GUIDs
and teams, and I think there'sa certain point where you think, Okay,
well, I can see it's difficultfor everybody. We're all passionate,

(06:36):
we want to really push these thingsforward, but it's like, why is
this so hard? And I thinkI just got to a point on a
project where I realized, so thatthis point, you know, this is
a team of one hundred our architecturalteam, and then the wider consultant team
is like six hundred and then someand so, and the client team is

(06:59):
equal to that, and so thisis a huge project, really sophisticated brief
and program and client requirements and allthese things, and yet it was so
grueling, and I thought, Icannot repeat that year that I've just had.
I can't do it to my team. So something has to something has
to change. It's a bit likewhat you're saying before, like you move

(07:20):
country and then you realize you cando like yeah, something, something gives
and you know you have to change. I got to a point on that
project where I realized I'd given everything, and I'd looked around to see that
everyone else was giving everything, andyet it still was, I think harder
than it needed to be so Yeah, I think from that was that was

(07:40):
a moment to step outside of thatproject and say, you know, I've
got to find it a better way. There must be a better way,
and I don't know what that is, but I have to step outside of
the project to figure it out.And do you have a sense. I
mean, maybe it's just arising atthis time that architect and that design systems

(08:01):
thinking what you're talking about is stillarchitecture, you know, understanding that so
many people are involved, the politicsand the collaboration across many teams, that
also is architecture. Architectural thinking cancan maximize the creativity and the productivity and
the outcomes exactly. I genuinely thinkarchitects have a much bigger role to play

(08:28):
and it needs like the thinking aboutwhat architects do needs to be flexible,
I think, and I think architectscan really push that agenda. And you
know, I'm really trying to advocatefor clients to understand that the talent or
the skill set of an architect couldbe used more effectively as well. So

(08:48):
and I think it was this exposureto a large scale project and because of
its scale, it needed to haveall these systems in place. It needed
to have expertise of the highest order, it needed to have these things there,
and yet it was still very difficult. So I think, but having

(09:09):
access seeing how this, you know, could come together, there's some potential
here that I'd not seen in anyother project before, right, So all
the ingredients seemed to be right,but still there's like, you know,
what, what is it that's missing? And so yeah, I think stepping
outside of that project, having thespace to think and looking back over my

(09:30):
career and really drawing on the thingsthat I'd learned from the smaller scale projects
as well, because I think youcan learn a lot from the smaller scale
and apply it to large scale projectsand equally going back the other way.
So and this is where, likeI guess, I've always stepped into a
leader like a leadership type gap thatI've seen, and then you step into
it, and then the more youstep in that, you more you receive,

(09:52):
you absorb, and then suddenly youknow, before you know it,
you're you're leading the projects and andyeah, you're falling into those roles.
So I knew that that's something thatI was leaning into. So yeah,
I think for me, it wasa natural step to say, right,
I need to figure this out.And I think leadership is the key.
But how could leadership be easier?Because when leadership is easier, all these

(10:13):
other puzzle pieces fall into place,and you know, architects can have their
role. There can be more spaceto think about design, there could be
more space to think about sustainability,agenda, what the stakeholders genuinely need,
what the client's not asking for butknows they should, but they can't quite
articulate it. You know, there'sso many things that just get unlocked when

(10:35):
you sort out the leadership. SoI think that's why that's where my focus
is, and that's where I'm tryingto really help develop and support leaders so
that they can feel like they cando more without working more. They can
achieve more impact, they can havethe headspace to do the things they need

(10:56):
to do. They can get thesupport from their team without feeling like they're
working them any harder. In fact, they're just empowering them and they're working
them in a different way. AndYeah, I think that's that's the key,
and I guess that's now the missionfor me is to try and get
that message out. Yeah, I'mfit that's so exciting that you'll see that

(11:22):
as a kind of picture in whichtoo, you've seen that picture and you're
actually geared to implementing ways through it. Because we're all sitting here waiting to
be asked, to be positioned tobe active in these roles. But outside

(11:43):
of our own office, our ownheads, our own practice, even our
own collaborative discussions with the wider groupsand our we can't it is you know,
it's obviously it's a leading position you'rein to make these the capacity for
architecture in this way known. Yeah, And look, I'm not pretending it's

(12:03):
it's an easy ride because I thinkthere's there's obviously a perception of what architects
do right now, and and architectshold that deer as well. So I
think there's there's going to need tobe this sort of unpeeling if you like,
about Well, there's a core rolethat architects will always have on projects,
but I think it can we cando more, and I think clients

(12:26):
should ask more and of higher value. It's not work, it's not overworking
architects. This is not what thisis about. This is finding new ways
and means for our skills to reallybe valued. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah. And I think,as you say, the apprenticeship and
experience and the team leadership you've hadin recent practice has has sort of triggered

(12:50):
your awareness of the roles that thatthe actual built environment really really needs to
address and the sort of the problemsolving design systems thinking that needs to be
applied, asking what the questions are, asking the real questions of which of

(13:11):
what the complexity of the current buildingenvironment, what those questions really are.
And that's part of design thinking isis being open to what the question is
and then you can start solving itand also challenging what the question is because
I think a lot of the timewe're going to assume that the client knows

(13:31):
exactly what they're they're asking and whatthey what they need, and they don't
always and equally, stakeholders might havesomething quite fixed in their minds because they
they're explaining what they know. Butit's an architect's role to really show what's
possible. And if it is agiant leap, you're you're asking stakeholders and

(13:54):
a client to take that's that's goingto take time. So you know,
what could you be doing to helpthem take a step by step approach to
that or are you just going orare you allowing time to build that relationship
in order to convince people to comewith you, Because I do think there's
this role we play in terms ofbringing people with us, and I don't

(14:16):
think architects spend enough time doing this. I don't think the wider design teams
spend enough time doing this. Andthat's why we get a reputation for well,
we're just adding cost and we're gettingin the way of things getting delivered
because we're faffing about thinking about someconceptual ideas or something, when actually,
no, there's some real deep thinkinggoing on there to save the client from

(14:41):
making a mistake or to show what'spossible that currently is not in the frame
of reference for the stakeholders who arecoming to have a look at what we're
doing here. So yeah, Ido think that it is about managing expectations
of the wider team, and Ithink you also need to really pay close

(15:03):
attention to managing expectations within your closeteam as well, because honestly, I
think you can work closely with asmall group of people over a period of
time and you just assume everyone's onboard with things, or you assume they've
got the same knowledge that you had, but you forget that that knowledge was
obtained in a meeting that only youwere in. And you know, sometimes

(15:24):
it's just I think you forget thatthere's so many moving parts in a project
that and people come in with theirown life experience, with their own skill
sets, and there needs to bethis sharing of knowledge and sharing of responsibilities
and accountabilities such that people know whento ask for help and when to say,

(15:50):
look, I don't understand the fullcontext in which you're asking me to
do that, and I might goaway and do something, but it might
be completely wrong because I haven't understoodthe bigger picture. So can you explain
that to me? I think wedon't do enough of this exchange. And
maybe there's just this there's an expectationon you as a young designer that you

(16:11):
should just know this stuff, oras a leader, you should you should
have all the answers, so whensomeone comes at you, you can't possibly
say, look, I don't knowwhat do you think? Yeah? And
I think we've got to break downsome of these silly things that are just
getting in the way of good designof innovation, of good communication and things
like this. So yeah, ina way, what you're describing those processes,

(16:34):
they are design, aren't they.Yeah, that is design is understanding
the moving part. You know thatyou're in a relationship with a bunch of
moving parts, and showing going throughthat process is experiencing and undertaking design exactly.

(16:56):
It's funny because when I talk,I pretty much exclusively talk about leadership
now, And it's funny how architectssay to me, Oh, but look
at you. You know, you'rejust you're just talking about leadership, And
I kind of laugh because I think, well, actually, yes, I
am talking about leadership. But thisis how design is. Like, this

(17:17):
is how you navigate through a design. You can't. You can't. If
you care about design, you alsoneed to care about the leadership of it.
Otherwise you're actually being almost reckless withthe design if you haven't really thought
through the leadership and how to communicateit and the messaging and all of those
things around it. Yeah. Yeah, I just I don't know why,

(17:40):
but I just suddenly sort of FrankLloyd, right, I mean, he
he must have even though he waslike a design premium design, he must
have understood that he had to getall of these things. I mean,
he probably didn't achieve it very often, but he must have understood the world
in which he was having to manageto get his buildings. You know,

(18:07):
that process that you're talking about,not the politics, but bringing people into
this design arena so that everybody isenjoying because they know that they're dealing with
the problems. They're actually really involvedin solving these problems that are part of
a complex process. Yeah, andI love this idea that even in a

(18:33):
team, the dynamics really matter.And sometimes you I mean because I've been
involved in very large scale teams andof course there's some really curious dynamics that
happen when you've got a very bigteam, but equally when you've got a
small team, it can just bethis one person in and there's one person
out completely changing their dynamics. Andit could just be there's one person that's

(18:53):
coming in that's basically just not onboard with the vision because maybe no one
bother to explain it to them,or maybe this is not something that they
agree with, and it's something thatcan really play on the whole impact of
the whole design team. And howit operates if there's one or two individuals
who just aren't on board, orwho who choose to question things or whatever

(19:18):
and do it in a way thatisn't constructive. And I think it's interesting
that you imagine that in a designteam. And of course you've got the
same situations within the wider consultant teams, within the client organizations and all of
the and then you add them allup and suddenly you've got lots of kind
of grumblings and mumblings that just sortof like just they just have enough of

(19:42):
an impact that things don't quite gothe way they should. And it's interesting
that there's just those things to navigateon top of everything else, and it
can just be these little dynamics,these little nudge, these little comments,
or these little things that don't getdone because they're not understood to be important

(20:02):
and it just can undermine or theprocess and obviously the outcome too. So
yeah, so you a very interestingprofession when you think about it, aren't
we incredibly interesting? There's a coupleof things. First, I'm sort of
loving your courage and the way you'vejust demystified your particular work that you're doing

(20:26):
at the moment that you're not,you've got the courage not to be put
it back into a box. Imust design. I must design, you
know, I've got to be adesigner. The fact that you're you're putting
it out there that architecture is aboutthis leadership to be able to have the
capacity building that we can address thereal problems out there. And then the

(20:48):
other thing, of course, isjust the basic thing of how do you
manage or how do you see inthe work that you're doing at the moment
about leadership? Is this the littlething about where there's not dealing with particular
team members. I guess that's anongoing work in progress. Yes, yeah,
look, and I've got some funnystories about that in my book.

(21:12):
And yeah, I think there's wellfor me in terms of getting gaining clarity
on what a leadership framework or ablueprint looks like, because I think the
important thing to know is as aleader, you're going to need to bring
your own self into the equation here, so you know, there's there's room
for lots of leadership styles, butso long as it kind of covers this

(21:33):
this this framework, if you like, it covers the ground enough ground and
so yeah, I in terms ofme gaining the clarity on that, you
know, there's there's it's broken downinto four key areas, and you know,
the first one is about vision andhow you advocate for that relentlessly and
it sounds exhausting, but actually it'sit's something that I think certainly architects are

(21:57):
brilliant at in terms of articulate avision, so long as they understand that
they've got to tune that to whoeverthey're speaking to and that will change over
time. But I think the thingthat's often missed here is that a vision
is something you do at the verybeginning of a project, and it sits
within the design team and then itstays there, and often it stays with

(22:19):
one or two individuals architects on theteam. But actually that's where the opportunity
is just lost because in order tobring people with you and in order to
relentlessly advocate and really check in withyou know, is that vision really going
to be the thing that delivers thisproject and the way it should be delivered

(22:40):
and will carry forward and people canstep in behind it and believe it and
want to carry it out, thenthey need to own it, they need
to find their way of articulating it. And I think architects and design teams
can get very precious about, well, it's our vision and we own it
and we've got our own little wayof describing it and talking about it,
and there it stays. And thatto me is a massively missed opportunity and

(23:06):
weakens leadership and weakens the project.So for me, that's just such an
easy effect because on so many projects, the vision starts out quite strong and
then just you know, just justpeters away when the value engineering starts and
all these things, it's just nowhereto be seen. Right. But if
you've if you've had this relentless wayin which you've spoken about the vision and

(23:29):
people have owned it over over thewider team, then then that will be
something that won't be eroded as quicklywhen it gets to value engineering. So
that's that's why that one is sostrong, I believe, beautiful articulated.
And I would also be bold enoughto say that the hips architects are the

(23:49):
ones who we're the ones that cando that because we understand that that are
building is you have the brief,you have the conversation with the and we
we we nurture and hang onto thatvision right through the complexity of the whole
process. So maybe that is oneof the roles of architects specifically that we

(24:11):
can that makes us kind of valuableto to manat to being part of the
part of the people who address problemsthat we have today is architecture. Isn't
it that that vision exactly exactly?And it can and it shows the continuum
through a project, because I thinkthe other sad thing is when architects just

(24:33):
fall away from projects because they're consideredtoo expensive, they get in the way
and all of these things. Butif there's this continuum that is there through
this value pee through this vision andhow you advocate for it, which is
a highly valued thing, if it'scommunicated in the way that it that it
should be, and if you're advocatingfor the vision in a language that is

(24:56):
resonating with the people around you,because you can't just speak architect, you
can't just speak technical staff because thatwon't carry And yeah, so I think
that that's such an important role toplay, and it just smooths out the
whole leadership thing because it streamlined allyour decision making. You go back.
If the vision is strong enough,then it can help you make those really

(25:18):
tough decisions. Yeah, it's notall on you, because if everyone else
has owned and understood the vision,they're all wanting to make similar decisions in
any case. So yeah, thatis that was the as you say,
that's your first fix, first aspectof your book in terms of describing leadership.
Also going to say that that isactually that is the beautiful architectural process

(25:42):
that you're that you're describing and thatwe all want to I wouldn't say cliche
sign up for, but that isessentially, as you say, one aspect
of the contribution that we can makesignacolutely, significantly too. We all wanting

(26:03):
we can visualize an outcome because we'rearchitects, designers and we're urbanists. But
we're committed to that process over time, that continuum that you're talking about to
achieve that the achieve an outcome thatwe know meets the complexity of issues that

(26:26):
are out there. So yes,thank you, And I think the other
thing, the thing, the mistakethat's often made is when you when you
come up with this vision at conceptstage, when you haven't potentially understood fully
the context you're working in all thegoalposts have shifted over time. If this
is a long term project, thatis going to happen. So I think

(26:48):
the idea that a vision is fixedat the beginning and it must be fixed
all the way through a long termproject is also nonsense. And I think
that so I think there's this understandingwhat the ap of a vision is and
that's not likely to change, butthe maturing of it should. It should
be allowed to evolve with the projectsand mature with the project and with the

(27:08):
knowledge that's gained over time on aproject. And I think architects might be
in some cases at fault for clingingonto things that just you know, that
was back then when we didn't knowwhat we know now. We now know
these things, and we're not justcompletely going to compromise the vision. But

(27:29):
it needs to evolve. And Ithink when you're relentlessly advocating for it,
then you're hearing what is resonating,and you're seeing what's grinding, and you
can see what isn't what isn't bearingfruit. Shall we say then those things,
then you know what needs to bechanged. But if you're not advocating
for it, if you're holding itclose to your chest and to only a

(27:53):
few individuals, then you don't gainthe feedback, you don't allow it to
evolve. And yeah, it potentiallyit's irrelevant by the time projects are completed
in any case. So that's whythe two go together. And yeah,
yeah, and that's giving I thinkall of the cliche stakeholders a sense of

(28:14):
trust and the architect that we havethis kind of commitment to inclusivity and commitment
to communication, which is part ofthe design process. And then you get
the trust and you're as you say, you're you're giving your you're enabling in
good word in this situation, enablingthe other consultants, the other the clients

(28:36):
to participate in the vision as well, exactly. And there this is my
this is my other thing about leadership, because I genuinely think leadership is an
enabling role. You're enabling your teamsto perform at their best, You're enabling
the best design outcome. You're enablingyour clients to get what they need.
Like there's a real sense of there'slike finding the positives and solving, resolving

(29:00):
the issues and pushing forward, andyou're enabling things. And I think when
you have that mindset. Then youknow that your answer is not always the
right answer, but you're seeking outthe right answer, and I just think
it shifts, It shifts the referencepoints. And I think if more leaders

(29:22):
understood that that was their role,they would naturally kind of fall into leaders
that people want to work for aswell. I think. So, I
think what you're saying is valuable.I'm so pleased that we're getting it recorded
here in the studio because it's archivalinformation in a way, you know,
it's work in progress, So thankyou. I don't know about listeners,

(29:45):
but something of what Twani is referringto is this book that you've produced,
and it's a kind of a templatefor leadership. So we were it.
Now we're at the vision stage,vision and how you advocate for it,
because I they're always in like intwo's. So that's the fird piece,
and then the second piece is aflexible framework. I mean I talk about

(30:07):
the whole thing being a framework,but basically, imagine that you've laid out
the bones of your project, theparameters if you like that you're working within,
but there's some flexibility that's required withthat, so it's not fixed in
stone. And this is a patternwith me. There's nothing ever really fixed
in stone with a project, evenbudgets, I guess. But yeah,
so you've got this framework, theparameters that you're working within and that you're

(30:30):
pushing against. But then alongside thatis how you assign accountability. So you've
got this flexible framework that you're constantlychecking in and making sure it's relevant and
under it's working with the knowledge thatyou have and that's growing with the project,

(30:51):
and it's and you've assigned accountability whereit should actually be rather than by
title or by some other means.So, and I think that when team
members really understand their role and responsibilityand responsibility and accountability are different things.
So who is genuinely accountable for thebig like the key decisions or a key

(31:15):
bit of expertise? Like it's reallyclear, it's really important that people understand
this and not just assume there's toomuch. There's too many assumptions that happen
on a project. Certainly the largerprojects swim in assumptions. This is where
it will unravel, right, Okay, Yeah, So I just think that

(31:36):
when you're when you've got this frameworkand it's considered this live thing, it's
it's flexible, and it's it's evolvingwith the project, and you've got a
real sense of understanding of who's accountablefor what. And that's really sitting on
the right shoulders. It's not sittingon a single person's shoulders. It's sitting
across and it's and it's and it'sevolving again with the project. Then that's

(31:57):
a really healthy place to be.Number two. Yeah, yes, that's
sort of the horizontality of management acrossthe table. Everybody is at the table
in their appropriate roles. So whenyou're say that, is there somebody responsible
for that framework or is that thearchitecture or is it just sort of part

(32:21):
of a template that everybody understands jobto job. Yeah, I mean,
I think it will depend on thescale of your project. But certainly most
of the projects I've worked on,there's been an architectural framework that you're working
in. So it contains the brief, the scope of work, the program,
your deliverables, and all of thosethings, and each consultant will have

(32:42):
their own version of that, butthen there's likely to be a project wide
framework as well. And yeah,so I think it depends on the scale
of your projects. But certainly architectsshould be owning their version of that and
understanding how that fits in with abigger of things. Yeah, and I
think with accountability, accountability is it'sreally strange thing where I don't know,

(33:07):
like I write about it in mybook that as a project even before a
project Arctic, but as a projectarchitect, I felt responsible and accountable for
everything. And I'm just out ofuniversity. I don't know what I was
thinking, but I genuinely felt responsibleand accountable for everything. I don't even
know that my superiors knew about that, but I just I felt the burden

(33:28):
of things that I now look backand think, I don't understand why I
genuinely felt so accountable, And Ithink there is you know, there's obviously
you care so much about your projectand you're pouring yourself into the details.
But I think just being sensible aboutif you're just straight out of university,
there's no way you can be fullyaccountable for everything that you're doing, and

(33:51):
your superiors are not thinking you're fullyaccountable. So on that basis, you
know, what could you let goof? What burdens and things that you
can carrying that you don't need tocarry right now, and that would lighten
your load and let allow you tothink straight about things. And then I
think the other funny thing that I'venoticed over the years, and you know,

(34:13):
you sit around a table because I'mall about there not being a single
leader, certainly on large projects.So you've got a group of leaders around
a table, and you can betthat nine out of ten of them feel
accountable for all the same things.And that doesn't make any sense, does
it, But it just sort offalls naturally. You've got people that care
about team members, so nine outof ten will be thinking that they're accountable

(34:37):
for the team. But not everysingle person can be accountable for the team.
Okay, there might be teams withina team, yes, but for
the whole team, not everyone canfeel accountable for that team. And that's
too much. That's too much burdenon so many shoulders, and it's not
very effective. So I just thinkthat's just a classic case of you know,

(34:57):
there should just be these convers stationsthat happen regularly on a project because
it won't always be fixed, itwill evolve, but you know who is
who is feeling accountable and who isactually accountable? Because can we just can
we just clarify that, because itwill just mean that people can be focused
and shared, the shared the heavyburdens and be focused on the right things.

(35:21):
So and then you have this,well, if you can achieve that
that relationship method, you have animmediate excitement and creative process because people have
even more power over what is theirparticular strengths or their particular contribution that they've
been assigned. And so they're partof a very dynamic creative team. But

(35:45):
they're reliant on each others as wellas being personally accountable. So that's pretty
that's a pretty interesting way of describingteam. Team. Team. It's a
it's interesting. It needs to bedescribed, as you say, this book
that you've got is a good idea, because I can see now just talking

(36:05):
to you through these we're at thesort of sicker step I think is it
needs to be spelled, it needsto be described, It needs to be
as you're saying, trying to writeabout this process it's becoming. Is you're
speaking, Oh, that's good,that's good. It is a blueprint and
it's a framework because even with thenthat you can find your own way of

(36:28):
dealing with that. But if youknow the principles, you know the strategies,
and you can apply according to thescale of your projects to whatever stage
you're at. And I think it'sthis reminder that just not things don't need
to be fixed, even the arrangementof the team. Often they just stay
like that through a project and youdon't stop and go do you know what,
We're at this technical stage of theproject, and we've got all these

(36:50):
conceptual designers who are really struggling,and they may want to have the experience
in technical design, But how aboutwe bring in some help with that,
Like not just have all these conceptualdesigners struggling with the fact that they're going
through this technical phase. I thinkyou understand that, Yeah, projects move
through different like it evolves, andyou don't want people that only have experience

(37:13):
in the concept phase and only haveexperience and delivery phase. No, of
course you want that cross fertilization.But you also need to understand that if
people are struggling, if they don'thave like you know, the support,
and sometimes it's just a senior personor someone with a particular enthusiasm for the
technical details or whatever it is.There doesn't need to be full time,

(37:35):
but they can come into a projectand just inject some energy and just be
that, like, come to meif you need something on this particular day.
Not all the time, but youknow, let's set some boundaries.
But like that. Yeah, Ithink considerations like this just mean that leadership
can be that much smoother. Teamscan be leaner and they can feel supported.

(37:55):
Yeah. I love that they canbe leaner and they can still feel
sorted. Yeah, and they're gettingexposure to all these different things, which
keeps really interesting and yeah, gettingexposure different things. Yeah yeah, yeah,
so yeah, So the number I'llfly through number three and fourth.
The number three is about measuring whatmatters because I think often, especially as

(38:19):
architects, we we have this realunderstanding of the end of concept phase and
we kind of pin our hopes onthat, and then we measure our progress
when it gets to the end ofthe delivery phase or at least end of
concept phase if potentially we've passed itover to somebody else. And I just
think that it would be good ifwe had ways and means to understand the

(38:42):
progress and whether we're on track atany stage of a project, not in
those sort of the front and theback end if you like. So,
I think, you know, it'sdifficult to pin down exactly what those measuring
things are because I think it willbe quite specific for each project. But
again, ixplaw that in my bookabout how you can really measure any point
along a project along its journey sothat you don't have to wait until those

(39:07):
critical big milestones which might be ayear out, which might be five years
out to know whether you're on trackand you're succeeding. So and I just
think this takes its lessons from otherindustries and how they do this, and
you know, KPIs and other things, and I think architects might go,
oh, that sounds all like spreadsheetyor something. It doesn't need to be.

(39:30):
It doesn't need to be. AndI think this is where architects and
design teams can just get really creativeabout what's meaningful for them and what's meaningful
for the project, Like what arethe two or three things that you know
of being embedded in the design processand in the design It might be sustainability
aspects, it could be something you'redoing for the community, or there's certain

(39:52):
things that you know if they ifthey were delivered, then that is an
outcome that is secure and you're you'llknow you're going to be happy with.
But how do you then see thoseaspects at the various stages pulling back through
to concept stage, and at whatpoints can you check in with that and
see that you're on track? Okay, So you're saying the KPIs aren't just

(40:13):
like dollars and times they're looking at. No, that's boring and nobody believes
it. And it's also and thenif an architect starts talking about that,
they're gonna they're obviously not going tobelieve, which is sad but true.
No, Yeah, going to findother ways. Okay, loves it.
Yeah. And then with alongside measuringwhat matters and really being proactive about these

(40:37):
things, it's also it's encouraging fastfailure. So things that you can test
and trial and tweak and improve,and you know that can obviously be in
the design, it can obviously bein the way in which you're delivering the
design, and and all these otherthings. So I just think I'm pro
trying to push for innovation and innovatesmall and thinking big and things like this,

(41:00):
so that this is this is numberthree in terms of measuring, but
also really pushing boundaries, taking somecalculated risks, and so long as and
you can do that when you're checkingin and checking progress. That's why,
that's why I pinned them together,because I think if you're taking risks but
just not really understanding where you arein the grander scheme of things, that

(41:22):
is too risky. That's that's Yeah, you've got your programming and your you
know, scary spreadsheet maybe, butyou're actually you've actually got innovation and that
lot as well. That's an interestingbalance, an interesting kind of tension that
you've you've actually put that in.Was like the programming, Yeah, because

(41:44):
it forces you to question the program. You can be innovating a program just
like you could be innovating at someaspect of your design. So I'm all
like innovating and testing and tweak tweakingand taking calculated risks at every opportunity where
you see opportunity that that would benefitthe team, the project, the outcome.

(42:04):
So yeah, and this is againthis is architects thinking bigger than just
a design on a piece program.I love it that you're actually you've got
the program so much part of yourown process that it opens up and allows
innovation within it as well. Yeah, and imagine when you start combining that
with the vision and how you communicatewith your client, and you align that

(42:30):
with your framework and you've got thisreally clear accountability. You can now go
to your client with all of thisdata and with all of this information with
such clarity and take them on thejourney with you. And what will you
know? I mean, they willtrust you more because they can see you
care about things that are far beyondthe design. But you know that everything

(42:52):
you've just done and what you've shownthere will absolutely be there to protect and
nurture the design. It's there toit's that's exactly what it's there for.
But they they in a sense,will only see what they what they want
to see. If they want tosee that you're caring about the program,
job done. If they want tosee that you're caring about trying to push
for innovation and care about that thingthat that stakeholder wanted, job done,

(43:15):
but your understanding it's all coming togetherto to to really help the design.
Yeah, and then they trust youso that if you're bringing an innovative processes
or even innovations to the design,then they have the joy of the thing.
I'm working with this great architect,and they get I've got the person

(43:36):
that I wanted because they're innovative,which is what I wanted. And I
can talk to them. They seemto talk my language. They point to
something and I can point back atit, and I can have a conversation
because you know what, some clientsaren't very comfortable talking around design. That's
right. They will very happily talkaround all these other things. And you'll
be surprised when they're talking around theseother things that you can use that intel

(43:59):
to influenced the design, but youcan have so you're communicating on a completely
different level with them. And Ithink as well, if you've got this
idea of well, we're struggling withthis program and we've tried to align all
these things, and we've tweaked this, and we've tweaked them, we've tried
this, we've tried that, andthen they can see that you're attempting all
of these things, then they mightbe willing to say, you know what,

(44:22):
well, we could give a littlebit on the program there, or
that thing we demanded from you therethat could wait, or you know then
that I think you can just havea much more mature conversation around those things
that are putting pressure on on youand your team and compromising the design at
every turn. Yeah, you canhave more mature conversations around it. That's

(44:43):
brilliant creative, creative capacity thinking.So this that last piece of the puzzle
really is teams and looking after teams, creating like cultivating really a highly highly
effective teams and nurturing them with thesefeedback loops and things like this. And
it goes without saying, but Ithink, you know, there's certainly ways

(45:04):
and means that it could be donemore effectively. And I dive into that
in my in my book as well. So yeah, yeah, yeah,
No, there's so much involved ineach of these stages. And as I
said, I'm getting so much more. I'm learning as I'm going, and
it's starting to really click into place, you know, and you're putting into
words all these vague kind of wishesand desires that I think myself and my

(45:28):
colleagues here locally are kind of talkingabout, whispering about how do we place
ourselves so that we can be ina position to address the problems that we
can see we can really we wantto solve and we want to probe the
questions that are out there that wecan see what the questions are because we
see it from an urbanist design architecturepoint of view. And what you're saying

(45:53):
is you're allowing the client, potentialclient to be party to that that question
and process, that briefing process exactly. And I've heard so many architects say
that, although it kind of painsthem almost to say that a client almost

(46:15):
runs away with their idea and claimsit as their own, but do you
know what I think that's that isthat is a sign of success because you
have spoken with them and engaged withthem, and they have understood it in
such a way and they are nowinfluencing people that are completely outside your sphere
of influence as an architect, andthey will actually make sure that that vision

(46:38):
comes to life. So I dothink that while some architects think, oh,
my client's claiming credit for this,Yes, there's I guess there's some
ego that might be disappointed by that, but actually that is how you're going
to deliver on your project and seethe outcome that you can visualize so clearly.

(46:58):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,I didn't mean to cold tell you
when you were talking about your lastsubject, the team team building, if
you want to continue somewhere in there, or yeah, I mean teams.
I mean that's such a big topic, isn't it. It is a juicy
one, or even if you wantto just sort of wrap up around the
concept around your book for hips,and even how do you feel about the

(47:22):
grief of leaving architect practice as such, And there's no grief, there's just
this kind of joy of the nextphase that you're in. Well, I
still want I do miss having teamsaround me. I must admit I love
working with teams and I love workingon projects. But I anticipate that through
my leadership consultancy and working with otherleaders that I will have a chance to

(47:46):
work in teams and on projects again. So that's all that's all coming.
But I think for now I've actuallyenjoyed stepping out and just gaining the clarity,
and I've also just been joyed workingwith the leaders that I have over
this past year since writing the book, and I just I like getting involved

(48:07):
in just like from the from thesidelines, if you like, it's a
lot easier to be involved from thesidelines to be fair, but and seeing
these light bold moments for leaders whenthey when they understand that actually their their
challenges are not just their own challengesit is it is so common that we're

(48:30):
all experiencing similar things than we havein the past, and sometimes leaders just
need to hear that what they're thinkingabout doing is right, and so they
want some sort of validation that,oh, yeah, this is the right
pressure because I think as architects,you know, we're not trained as leaders.
We're trained as designers, and youknow, we fall into these leadership

(48:51):
roles and I guess I'm trying toreally pave the way and create ways for
architects to step in even in furtherare into those leadership roles and more proactively
and intentionally do it. But yeah, there's still so many architects who fall
into it and kind of just feelthis anxiety around what am I doing enough?

(49:12):
And I care so much about theproject and the team and what we
could do here, but you know, am I doing the right things with
leadership? So yeah, I wouldjust say if that is you and that
resonates, then then look into Iwould say, reflect on what has worked
for you in the past, andlook around and see what other leaders you

(49:36):
admire and they don't. They don'thave to be architects for you to admire
them, to learn from them,and to seek out yeah, books or
podcasts or whatever you know you resonatewith, or whatever you enjoy looking at
or reviewing or reading and just getinspired. Because I think that you're limiting

(49:57):
yourself in what you can do whenyou're worry and you're just worried about if
you're taking on the right leadership role, if you're doing it in the you
know, as effectively as you could. I think it's just a worry.
You don't need to have that worrywhen there's tools, there's a frame where
you can apply, there's other peopleyou can look to, and you know
you should be able to step inand be the design you wanted to be,

(50:19):
or be the designer you want tobe, be the policy maker,
whatever your role is. So doyou think like training and practicing is an
architect practice, it's a leadership roleanyway, or do you say that it
can be a struggle for some people. It can be a struggle for sure,

(50:44):
because I think some people come intoarchitecture because they they love to draw,
they love to imagine they love toconceptualize, and you know, some
people come in because they love thetechnical side of things or the crafting and
things like that. So I thinkpeople come into it for different reasons.

(51:05):
And when you become really skilled atthat, then you move up the ranks
and then you fall into these leadershiproles. So not everyone chooses to be
in a leadership role, but someof people just end up there because there's
a gap to feel like constantly,for me, there was a gap,
I stepped in, and then thegaps seem to get bigger and you keep
stepping in and then there you go. Yeah, and I think that's not

(51:27):
uncommon across our profession. So it'snot just the pressure of running a business,
Like part of your head is thinking, Okay, how I'm running a
business. The KPIs all of thatsystems, administration. It's actually the leadership
is it's being able to do thatbut knowing that you're managing teams and you're

(51:49):
engaging with the community and the stakeholders, so you've got all of those roles.
I guess your book is more aboutthe creativity of leadership and and maximizing
the process. Yeah, and howyou can really nurture and protect the design
and not set off for compromises becauseI think I've again seen too many situations

(52:09):
where there's been a beautiful idea thatjust absolutely gets whistled away over time and
the outcome is nothing like what itcould and should have been. And I
think now we need to be somuch more responsible with how we're designing for
longevity, yeah, for flexibility,for adaptability, for future needs which we

(52:31):
can't even imagine just yet. Howwe source materials and how we procure projects
and all of these things. There'san extra layer that really does need to
well, many layers that need tocome in now to really ensure we're doing
this in the most responsible way possible. And I think that when we get

(52:52):
leadership, when we get this,you know, if we're more effective as
leaders, we can handle these additionor layers and be more responsible with what
we're actually delivering. Yeah, Ithink that says it all. I think
that's a beautiful way to end.Actually, I can't I can't get a
single thing to that. Thank you, Tania. We have Tania Ireland Film

(53:15):
in the studio here and speaking inLondon. Titania, thank you for having
me. This is Roscelin Derby fromLocal Architecture. Thank you. This program
was made with assistance from New Zealandon here or radio broadcast and through the

(53:38):
Excessmedia dot org dot nz website.Thank you New Zealand on here